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bjusterbaarlik
06-10-2007, 08:00 AM
Since there are a few threads about Saber Styles with which there seems to come a more common agreement, I'd like to put one up about the Gunnery skills perks etc.

I have read so many times now that blob has to go, or no, it has to stay, blah blah blah... Personally, I think it should be removed, but not without changing some other weapons around first. I also wanted to throw my suggestions at you anyway and this seems a nice way of doing it.

About shooting-from-the-ground, or knockdown-shooting as I like to call it. I think it is a nice solution to only be able to shoot-from-the-ground with a weapon when you actually have level 3 in that specific weapon skill.

I do not know the damage values of the guns, but it seems logical to me that one or two shots would kill someone (if they hit ofcourse).

As for secondary fire modes, I still think that the slight zoom is the best for most guns and allows a more tactical playing style amongst gunners which will greatly reward them should they utilize it. This would also mean that the normal firing modes of those guns should be less accurate and should cause slightly more mishap.

I think I will list the guns and items here with my suggestions:

Pistol:
Not much to say about this one. It's cheap, light and probably your very last resort when in tight situations. I think the accuracy is a bit too high for this weapon, since it is only a pistol. The secondary fire mode should be the small zoom (or some kind of iron sights simulation) where it increases its accuracy and perhaps damage. However, you should never be able to be fully accurate with it, since it is the cheapest gun. When firing normally, the spray of the bullets should be a bit larger than the crosshair.

Blaster:
Well, this is a nice average weapon which should belong in any self-respected gunner's arsenal. I think the damage on it is fine as well as the ROF. Furthermore, I think the secondary mode should be the same as the pistol. This gun should also be more accurate than a pistol, but it should not be a sniper either.

Thermals:
The new blob, anyone? I think this weapon has a great potential in OJP. I remember reading about something of a special 'throw grenade' button being worked on for this weapon. As of now, the damage of the Thermals is horrible and this should be changed so it can kill a person easily if it explodes within close proximity of him. The firing modes on this weapon are fine in my opinion. Also, I think ammo for this gun should be sparse, with more levels for this weapon increases the amount of grenades you get.

Another thing I would like to suggest on this weapon. When level 1, these things should be easy to be pushed back by a Jedi/Sith. But I think when you have level 2, the push-back probability should be decreased to something about 75%. Level 3 should then decrease it further to 50% or below, to still make this a nice viable weapon to spend some points on.

Rocket Launcher:
This one I am not too keen on. I don't exactly know its damage, but I reckon it should be around the same of a Thermal described above. I think the firing modes on this weapon are fine. The ROF, however, should be higher than it is now (009v). This, because I am one of those people who voted to remove blob and I have some suggestions for replacements which you will read below. The ammo for this gun should be sparse in my opinion. Perhaps you should be unable to use the secondary fire on this thing until you get level 2.

Bowcaster:
Hmm, this weapon is one of those for which I don't know any suggestions. I think it is fine the way it is now. Any suggestions...?

Detpack:
Another weapon I rarely, or never use. Any suggestions...?

Clone Rifle:
The weapon of doom in the eyes of some. The ultimate nerfbat victim in the eyes of others. I see this weapon as the BAR from WW II. A heavy gun with a nice ROF and some good suppresive capabilities. You should be able to suppress or pin down a Jedi with this, since it fires at a nice rate and you actually have quite some ammo to spend. The accuracy and spread rate of this weapon are fine too.

But now, on to the secondary function. Some have suggested that it should be like most other guns, a slight zoom with increased accuracy and, perhaps, damage. Others thought it would be nice if it had some kind of burst fire or even a shotgun like type fire mode. I think it would be really nice if we would be able to combine those suggestions. I'd say make the secondary mode the slight zoom effect with a little increased accuracy and make it do a burst when you're firing it. This burst, with 3 to 5 bolts in one, should be too much for a Jedi/Sith to deflect all at once, and thus he will get some nice DP damage. An added effect would be the Jedi/Sith falling over when getting too much DP damage when shot by the secondary fire mode of this gun. However, the ROF of the secondary mode should be low, but not too low like the current Rocket Launcher.

Disruptor:
The ultimate sniper. This thing does exactly what it says on the tin. I think it would be better if the primary fire mode is not as accurate as it is now and would also aquire a bit more mishap per shot. This is your typical long range weapon and you don't want to be pulling this out in a close-quarters fight.

-

Well, I will stop here for now, this post is already way too long. Remember that these are all my suggestions and opinions. I would like to know what you think of it and what your suggestions are. I'd say that the 'slight zoom' mode for secondary fire is good to have with most guns, as it puts more tactical elements in OJP. And to be honest, it would greatly increase the immersion as a gunner in this game. This would also put a bit more emphasis on teamplay, which I think is still a bit too far away from the current game.

Maxstate
06-10-2007, 08:18 AM
^
/agree

Weapons should get buffs according to how good they are now, making the bowcaster, e-11 and pistol used more than the seeker and sentry (which should be support) is a good goal to aim at.

The detonation pack is a key weapon in my gunner arsenal, I just wish it did more damage. It's hard enough to get a jedi to fall for it, same goes for thermals.

-=edit=-

Also teamplay is a lot more fun now, especially when combining team FFA and the new (and working!) LMS. There are some slight problems though, camping for example. The winners don't respawn afterwards so the losers need to constantly try and assault the same part of a map.

DarthDie
06-10-2007, 10:23 AM
And the winners also get their health/ammo/shield down too everytime they win because they dont respawn.

TheShaman
06-10-2007, 12:09 PM
Also, bowcaster should be just like E11 (no charged 5 shots, no bouncing shots), but should have less rate and more damage.

Note about LMS: EVERYBODY should respawn, I know this is not MB2, but it would allow people to upgrade stuff even when they win.

ensiform
06-10-2007, 02:54 PM
"respawned" yes, but not thrown into death mode then adding a point back.

need to figure out a way to combine the resetting stuff in player_die with respawn function.

lms_respawn or something ;)

Maxstate
06-10-2007, 03:41 PM
"respawned" yes, but not thrown into death mode then adding a point back.

need to figure out a way to combine the resetting stuff in player_die with respawn function.

lms_respawn or something ;)

Ensi's back.

<3

ensiform
06-10-2007, 06:03 PM
Back?

I've always been around dood :S. Just not posting much input :|.

Wytchking
06-11-2007, 04:49 PM
The scope for the disruptor in the most recent build seems to be broken as it makes whatever your viewing lighter and lowers your view distance!?

razorace
06-11-2007, 09:36 PM
mmm, haven't changed anything related to the scopes. Not sure why you'd start seeing that now.

Darth Cariss
06-12-2007, 06:47 AM
One thing I'd like to see for gunners is being able to convert Force to Ammo. It could fix that "Running out of Ammo" problem, while at the same time giving gunners a reason to conserve Force, as it would dictact their ammo supply.

TheShaman
06-12-2007, 07:23 AM
Heh, but doesn't that sound a bit weird? And it would mean they have infinite ammo...

Tanqexe
06-12-2007, 07:50 AM
About the new stun secondary on the pistol, I'm a bit worried that it can become easily spammable because the charge shot has infinite ammo. Maybe it'd be better served to place that secondary on another weapon (like the upcoming sonic blaster).

I think it'd be neat if in team play people take on certain roles such as long range, mid-range frontline, etc. to infuse more tactical play. Not everyone can be a Kyle Katarn and carry a crapload of weapons at one time, it just isn't very realistic. On that front having that encumbrance system we were talking about would be a good idea to ensure that people try to focus and specialize on different ranges for tactical team play; a normal person carrying an E-11, a DC-15A, a rocket launcher, and a bunch of det packs would be so weighed down they'd more easily get tired and not be able to run as long as someone with a thermal det and an E-11 + side arm.

I really like bjuster's suggestions for gun features. Just want to add a few things:

Pistol is like the cheap thing to buy, so yeah, its base accuracy slop should be slightly noticeable starting at mid-range and considerable at long range. As Jango Fett demonstrates, pistols can be quite lethal with well placed shots at close range, so it'll be a good base weapon for close range and decent at mid-range. Good candidate to have an aimed mode.

Blaster should be weapon of preference for close and mid-range combat and is the pistol's big brother. Aimed secondary mode gives you choice of tapping for one accurate shot or holding attack for a three-shot rapid burst, and this weapon should be nicely rounded out.

Bowcaster should be mid-range to near-long range king. Move secondary fire to primary, give aimed mode a scope with two fixed zoom settings (maybe?) with a charged up shot that fires a more powerful shot at faster speed.

The suggestion for a zoom-in spray shot secondary for the clone rifle may be a bit much. I see the clone rifle as serving more of a mid-range to close-range attack and suppression weapon. If the spray shot is more intended for close range suppression, then I wouldn't suggest a zoom function for it, but it being a relatively expensive gun to buy, should have some big perks (minus the blob).

I like the idea about thermals.

Dunno about det packs since I don't really use them, but I'm not too keen about it being used like an alternative to a thermal det; it should serve as more of a surprise ambush kind of device. Should we re-introduce trip mines?

Disruptor primary fire changes I agree with.

I'm not sure about converting Force to ammo because, well, it kind of doesn't make much sense. I think ammo replenish should be a gadget that you activate, much like the bacta cannister, where each one will replenish your ammo to your full clip with each use (or maybe half a clip).

Darth Cariss
06-12-2007, 08:09 AM
Heh, but doesn't that sound a bit weird? And it would mean they have infinite ammo...

Yes, just like a Jedi has infinite Force/Lightsaber. It balances it out.

As for the gadget thing, yeah, that works, but it still is only a limited use item (Unless it regenerates itself, but that seems too powerful). Doing a Force-To-Ammo thing (Probably a gadget you buy that could be activated to convert the force to ammo) seems more balanced. It takes away a valuable resource (Force) to gain another. It also makes it so the gunner has to stop somewhere to regain Force/ammo, rather than it being a constant on-the-go restoration.

Orj
06-12-2007, 08:54 AM
What you're describing is in Forcemod III. Gunner classes get the ability 'ammo regen' which makes their force degenerate and their ammo regenerate until they get full ammo, cancel the ability, or run out of force.

razorace
06-12-2007, 04:01 PM
Any sort of ammo regeneration item would invalidate the point of having ammo in the first place. You're supposed to bring enough with you to be able to deal with threats. Besides, we've made it so the pistol always has ammo, so it's not like you'll ever be completely out of ammo unless you choose to be.

JRHockney*
06-12-2007, 09:09 PM
I dont suppose it would be possible to create some kind of buyable ammo drop feature where a ammo box of somekind would spawn in random locations every 5 minutes or so and refill all your ammo.

Or maybe a box that a buyable drop box that acts like a storage area for ammo where you can plant it somewhere on the map and it refills your ammo up to a certain point when you go back to it, but it can be destroyed?

razorace
06-12-2007, 10:31 PM
It would be possible, but I don't think we should do that. You gotta conserve the ammo guys! :)

Maxstate
06-13-2007, 04:05 AM
In the TEAMFFA/LMS games we play it's mostly a problem when you have gunners on the other team who can only hold off so many waves of players assaulting them without respawning or /killing to get their ammo back. Jedi get everything back in a matter of seconds whether they respawn or not, so I think I'm with Darth Cariss on this one.

Besides, gunners hardly use their FP at all and this would balance it out by forcing them to not just throw 85 of it away.

Maxstate
06-13-2007, 11:42 AM
The new pistol secondary stun is AWESOME!
I do believe though that it should be a level 3 power for multiple reasons, main ones being that you can get the pistol's full potential by spending one point in it and that it kind of lacks any achievement level when you get everything from the start.

razorace
06-13-2007, 02:14 PM
1. Bug ticket the level 3 -> pistol secondary thingy. I'll see if it's possible.
2. If it's a problem for gunners, we could just make EVERYONE respawn. I originally had it that we so the winner would still be ingame so they could grab the flag or complete their siege objective while everyone else was dead. Bug Ticket.

TheShaman
06-14-2007, 03:07 PM
Sonic blaster should have that stunshot, not pistol. A pistol is just a pistol.

HamstrYODA
06-16-2007, 04:41 PM
I'm not sure if anyone has said this before but I think you should make it so that when using ruptor on scoped mode and got knocked down, scope would automatically dissappear.
I think it would be both useful and realistic. i think nobody keeps looking through scope after pushed down :p

DarthDie
06-16-2007, 04:55 PM
^^

Lathain Valtiel
06-16-2007, 05:05 PM
Sonic blaster should have that stunshot, not pistol. A pistol is just a pistol.


I see no logical reason a blaster pistol cannot have it if it charges power. It's the 'set blasters to stun' except in pistol form since it needed something to distinguish it and makes its charge worthwhile. Which has not quite happened yet.

Maxstate
06-16-2007, 05:08 PM
I really really think we should implement some kind of reloading system.

Yes.

YES I DO!

It's realistic, fun and more tactical, plus it enables us to do so much more! Imagine the rocket launcher actually needing a reload instead of just having a super unrealistic cooldown. Why do we have the E-11 beomg able to fire 300 (!) shots without ever needing to stop to cooldown or reload? I mean that's superheated plasma that's continously streaming through the barrel, don't you think it'd melt or something?

What about if we ever set on getting a projectile rifle, are we going to give it the cooldown too? I can't see any reasoning that would convince me into the current system being good.

Lathain Valtiel
06-16-2007, 05:21 PM
...We have a lightsaber that projects black light.

Besides, it's perfectly easy to imagine the usage of some sort of power cell for all that ammunition for the energy/plasma weapons. Even easier to imagine that points in the weapon allows 'higher grade' cells. You're not talking about reload there, you are talking about OVERHEATING. Two entirely seperate things. Pick one.

Besides, forcing reloads would be equivalent to forcing a delay on all guns it is applied to, which is not at all necessary or at all needed balance wise. Do that and I'll reasonably expect the damage to go up.

Maxstate
06-16-2007, 05:24 PM
...We have a lightsaber that projects black light.

Besides, it's perfectly easy to imagine the usage of some sort of power cell for all that ammunition for the energy/plasma weapons. Even easier to imagine that points in the weapon allows 'higher grade' cells. You're not talking about reload there, you are talking about OVERHEATING. Two entirely seperate things.

Besides, forcing reloads would be equivalent to forcing a delay on all guns it is applied to, which is not at all necessary or at all needed balance wise. Do that and I'll reasonably expect the damage to go up.

That's something totally unrelated to gameplay.

I'm using overheating as an argument for reloading.

Forcing reloads would just take over whatever the hell mishap for gunners was supposed to do, but isn't doing very well.

Lathain Valtiel
06-16-2007, 05:28 PM
Overheating has absolutely nothing to do with reloading. You can't open your mouth and spout bull**** about realism and then turn around and claim that overheating should support reloading for gameplay reasons, especially when you decided to completely ignore my last paragraph regarding gameplay. Pick: realism or gameplay. One or the other. Choose or your argument is null and void since you can't have it both ways.

Maxstate
06-16-2007, 05:30 PM
I was saying that currently, gunners can shoot their guns as long as they have ammo, at the same rate and not see or feel any side effects because of it. I gave as one outcome of this (in a realistic game) that the gun would overheat because of those actions.

Then I started about reloading and how it would fix this unrealistic problem...

Lathain Valtiel
06-16-2007, 05:38 PM
...What part of 'reloading has nothing to do with overheating' is Greek to you? If you're concerned about overheat and realism in that regard, ask for an overheat gauge. If concerned about reloading and game balance, phrase it in terms of reloading. Star Wars is not realistic. Lasers can be heard in the silent vacuum of space.

You can't use overheat as an argument for reloading because, surprise, I could control my shots to fire in small bursts, totally minimizing heat, AND I'D STILL HAVE TO RELOAD IN YOUR SYSTEM unless you are advocating some passive ammo recharging. Therefore that overheat line of argument is utterly worthless. I repeat, pick one line of argument or you're just going to make yourself look silly.

Maxstate
06-16-2007, 05:40 PM
No need to get all worked up, it was just an idea, I just don't feel like listing out a bunch of arguments when they'll all be shot down for *insert arbitrary reason*.

I could make up a bunch of other excuses why a reloading system would have to go in if you'd like, but there isn't really much of a reason to do so when it's pretty clear that the current system sucks.

Lathain Valtiel
06-16-2007, 05:42 PM
My reasons aren't arbitrary, they are logical, your arguments are arbitrary and for the most part always have been. Your overheat line does not help you and only makes you look like an idiot for the perfectly good reasons outlined in my post. Which you convienently have no argument against because it is without question correct.

Come now, I'm sure good arguments for reloading could be found, but you are not providing. At all.

Maxstate
06-16-2007, 05:53 PM
Oh fine
...What part of 'reloading has nothing to do with overheating' is Greek to you?
What part of "I gave as one outcome" do you not understand? Do I need to bold the words for emphasization so it would be more clear to you?


If you're concerned about overheat and realism in that regard, ask for an overheat gauge.
I'm not, I gave it as ONE reason to instate a reloading system. Just ONE, like I said, ONE outcome, ONE reason, not THE reason as you seem to think.


If concerned about reloading and game balance, phrase it in terms of reloading.
How? I want reloading because it's cool? Because it's realistic? Because it's canon? In the movies? Logical? Tactical? More fun?

Star Wars is not realistic.
There was never a doubt in my mind about this.
Lasers can be heard in the silent vacuum of space.
I know you're trying to give an explanation of your previous sentence, but in the vacuum of space there wouldn't be a need for overheating prevention either.


You can't use overheat as an argument for reloading because, surprise, I could control my shots to fire in small bursts,
Is that A reason or THE reason? If you used your firing in controlled small bursts, you would be useless in OJP since while you control your bursts you give a jedi the time to recouperate his or her Dodge points. Besides, 2 or 3 seconds in between the shots isn't exactly going to stop the weapon from deteriorating and heating up A LOT.

totally minimizing heat, AND I'D STILL HAVE TO RELOAD IN YOUR SYSTEM unless you are advocating some passive ammo recharging.
A REASON, NOT THE REASON. Stop pinning ONE ARGUMENT up as if it was my whole repertoire, it's not making you seem any brighter either.


Therefore that overheat line of argument is utterly worthless. I repeat, pick one line of argument or you're just going to make yourself look silly.
What part of the concept of "1" do you not understand? We can debate on this all you'd like, my argument was ONE argument!?

JackBaldy
06-16-2007, 05:59 PM
Hmmm, there goes Max again going into 'World War' mode again. Just give it up, seriously o.O Not all your ideas are good, as not all my ideas are good, as not all Lathain's ideas are good, etc. If someone disagrees with you and gives a valid reason, why do you feel the need to go into 'World War' mode? This is getting old very fast o.o

Lathain Valtiel
06-16-2007, 06:36 PM
*Sigh* You never learn.

Considering that for some peculiar reason you seem to have trouble admitting that that piece of argumentation sucks... you asked for this.

1: And that one outcome, which you have for some stupid reason chosen to defend to the death instaed of admitting it was boneheaded, does not work in favor of your system idea. Nothing else to say on that.

2: Then admit your given reason that dominated roughly half or more of that original post about the idea sucks ass and move on.

3: Out of the 7 listed reasons, only the last two involve gameplay. And both of those are nothing but pure opinion backed up by nothing except your fervent and frenzied wish. That last part also goes for the first.

Realism... It is also not realistic to have three rockets commence near-direct impact with your body and having you survive. Or for your passive resistance to the Force suddenly and inexplicably failing beacuse you decided to hold something a bit heavy. I don't see you complaining about that. OJP has never and will never be consistent in realism by virtue of the fact that it is a game. Therefore I nor anyone else has a reason to bow to this 'reason' for including reload.

Logical... it is equally logical and less of a hassle to claim that levels in all of the energy-based weapons grant a higher-grade or otherwise modified power cell and cooling system, completely eliminating the need for reload since there are no ammo pickups and we could quite easily stop weapons from dropping to facilitate this (considering that lightsaber doesn't drop).

In the movies... And? Kyle Katarn certainly isn't in the movies, should we drop him too? Force Rage, Force Absorb, and the way Mind Trick functions in the game also are not in the movies. OJP and you are inconsistent with this therefore I see no reason to give this any weight at all.

Canon... Considering that canon has basically only thermal detonators with ludicrously huge range, I'm pretty sure this can be safely overlooked. Or we could claim our dets are soime yet-unheard-of-except-in-games Class E or something, which further murders this argument by indicating canon can be pretty much ignored when needed.

Are you done? All of your reasons are basically either made easily irrelevant, or are an opinion, or are simply questionable.

4: Yet you seem to be fixated on inserting realism into something unrealistic. I see.

5: Well at least you admitted you're going on a dumb tangent which needs no response since my statement was support.

6: You're using a gameplay argument to answer a realism counter. That doesn't work, because even if your statement is possibly true MY statement is unquestionably true.

Methinks in a galaxy far far away that a delay to let a weapon cool off would actually help significantly considering advanced cooling systems. In computers and bittorrenting, you can choose to have the files' name and size written to the disk in reserve in one big burst, or have it be written piece by piece as you get the file. Guess which is better for your hard drive. Hint: it's the first thing, a burst followed by relative relaxation. And yes that applies to this argument because heat, mostly constant heat, is what generally causes computer hardware to fail.

7 and 8: Yadda yadda from you, see 1 and 2. Your argument failed, cry more.

Q.E.D.

JRHockney*
06-16-2007, 10:18 PM
:drama: I'm not even going to bother reading the past argument posts. Everyone who is in vindictive argument mode, turn off vindictive argument mode or I'll start deleting posts. RAZOR SAID PLAY NICE!!! :p

Anyways. I've made the following changes in my code:

-getting hit by blaster by while running with a saber now does X3 normal damage. I kept walking damage the same since you should still be able to stand and deflect one opponent (whos not using sentry or seeker) pretyy easily.

-getting hit by blaster from behind with a saber also does X3 normal damage.

-All clone rifle shots do the same damage as blaster shots (making primary fire the most damaging in the game.

-blob now costs 100 units to use so hopefully it will be used much less now over primary fire.

-Snapthrow dets now explode on impact.

I'm hoping these changes work for you guys as they seem to be pretty balanced. If you want, I''ll put them at the repository for you guys to try out. If you don't like them, I can always change them back.

JRHockney*
06-17-2007, 05:04 AM
Here's a link to those changes btw: http://files.filefront.com//;7805959;;/

And I almost forgot, HAPPY 1000 POSTS TO ME!!!! :p

Maxstate
06-17-2007, 08:31 AM
:drama: I'm not even going to bother reading the past argument posts. Everyone who is in vindictive argument mode, turn off vindictive argument mode or I'll start deleting posts. RAZOR SAID PLAY NICE!!! :p

Anyways. I've made the following changes in my code:

-getting hit by blaster by while running with a saber now does X3 normal damage. I kept walking damage the same since you should still be able to stand and deflect one opponent (whos not using sentry or seeker) pretyy easily.

-getting hit by blaster from behind with a saber also does X3 normal damage.

-All clone rifle shots do the same damage as blaster shots (making primary fire the most damaging in the game.


-blob now costs 100 units to use so hopefully it will be used much less now over primary fire.

-Snapthrow dets now explode on impact.

I'm hoping these changes work for you guys as they seem to be pretty balanced. If you want, I''ll put them at the repository for you guys to try out. If you don't like them, I can always change them back.
JUST ONEEEEE more? Please? :D

Most of his questions/flames have already been answered by Razor in his previous posts, I just have to quote :D?

Anyway, in 30 minutes from this post I'll be hosting a server with your latest changes via hamachi. If anyone wants to try out OJP with real people, you have teh chance now :)

Edit:
Happy 1k posts!