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Faelion
06-15-2007, 09:17 AM
Gunners
As a good gunner and saberist in OJP, I noticed that a Jedi class is far easier than a gunner in a long term sense. I play last man standing with bots now mostly, so as a gunner I end up doing very well on the first round, but that is when I have all of my ammunition.
The second round is okay, but I end up using nearly all of my ammo.
The third round, I'm out. I don't think gunners should have to die to keep playing (the alternative being to find a high camping place with a jetpack and shooting pistol shots down).
A jedi does not need to die. Grab a health pack and I am set.
So I wanted to think of a better way to handle the ammo situation. I came up with two decent options: An holdable recharger or ammo as another meter that recharges. It could still be the same ammo degeneration (rockets could drain one third, pistols drain none, and blasters drain 1/300). Then gunners could be lasting as a Jedi. The way it is, without some way to get ammo by yourself, it is bad to play against all jedi.

Dual sabers bug
When I throw a lightsaber in any stance but the dual stance, I have two sabers mind you, it turns off and the one in my left hand turns on. (I am holding force throw down, and the saber spins with no blade)

Force
When and why did you change it so you had to respawn to get new force powers? That was awesome! You didn't (I don't think you should) have to die to become stronger. If you think it gave too much power to change quickly, could you have Jedi meditate (taunt) for a set period to change them?

Oh one more, occassionally my saber falls into a pit (like t3_rift) when I throw it. Is it supposed to be lost forever? Realistic, yes; annoying, oh yeah.
It works either way for that one. Realism is good too.

Edit: Thought of one more. The NPC's aim is bad. If I stand there, they continuously aim over my left shoulder.

Edit: While I was playing a second ago, I found that the new jetpack is bugged (as cool as it may seem). I was able to do the dual saber jumping/spinning move (UP+JUMP+ATTACK1) and then activate my jetpack. I was able to recreate it, though a little hard, but I got a screenshot. (How do you put a screenshot in the forum anyway?)

So, any further suggestions or suggestions to my suggestions?

DarthDie
06-15-2007, 10:12 AM
Playing LMS (which is awesome now that it works) as a gunner...after around the third round yeah your just pretty much totally outta ammo. And yeah when did you change where you didnt need to die? Now I don't play as sith often but when I do I noticed you have to die to get new force. So...make so we cant activate Jetpack while doing special moves...should be easy...i'll look into it.

Edit: Yay im no longer a lurker...im a rookie :P.

TheShaman
06-15-2007, 12:18 PM
I don't like ammo regeneration, it was already established that inifnite ammo is bad. Although, for LMS, I've already suggested that EVERYBODY respawns, winners and losers, that way gunners spawn with all their ammo, and can apply their newly earned points without having to die.

razorace
06-15-2007, 02:06 PM
Bug ticket. bug ticket. bug ticket.

Faelion
06-15-2007, 03:33 PM
I've already suggested that EVERYBODY respawns, winners and losers

That will not work out in CTF. If you have the flag and kill the last person on the other team, then you'll lose a point! (or not gain one)

Edit: Can you make it wait for the living team to get a point from a capture?

razorace
06-15-2007, 04:17 PM
We could make it so that you only respawn with everyone else in non-CTF/Siege gametypes....

Faelion
06-15-2007, 06:07 PM
Then there is still an ammo problem in CTF.

JRHockney*
06-15-2007, 07:30 PM
Why not just get some more ammo when you kill somebody? It could be like they took it off their corpse. So what if jedis don't carry ammo, we'll just 'pretend' they do. Its more logical then ammo magically appearing from your FP! :p

madcatmach2
06-15-2007, 07:37 PM
biggest reason im against a regenerating ammo is the we could have a gunner with unlimited rockets

Faelion
06-15-2007, 08:00 PM
I understand that regenerating ammo is weird. I was just trying to come up with something. I believe that JRHockney*'s idea is best.

razorace
06-15-2007, 08:27 PM
Why not just get some more ammo when you kill somebody? It could be like they took it off their corpse. So what if jedis don't carry ammo, we'll just 'pretend' they do. Its more logical then ammo magically appearing from your FP! :p
Players can already get more ammo by picking up the weapons dropped by other players when they die.

Faelion
06-15-2007, 10:07 PM
razorace: Players can already get more ammo by picking up the weapons dropped by other players when they die.

True, however, the weapon they are currently using is all that is dropped. You only get that if you're lucky! If they have a pistol, saber, or melee you receive nothing at all.

Edit: Can you make them drop all of their weapons?

TheShaman
06-16-2007, 10:53 AM
What about using the ammo dispensers in CTF maps >_>

Maxstate
06-16-2007, 11:00 AM
jsut boots teh drop raet on epix geer LEROYO JEKNIONS

;p

No splitting. One style of approach to all problems please.

tarbaby
06-16-2007, 12:25 PM
I would vote for a single-use ammo pack that you purchase like any other weapon. Preferably, you'd access it like any other hand held object and once it's depleted you have to purchase another.

TB

Faelion
06-16-2007, 12:36 PM
If you purchased it like any other weapon you'd still need to die to receive another (though it was a decent idea, maybe if you didn't need to die it'd work out the best). Rechargers in a map would not be acceptable. "Custom maps" would have the problems then.

Yango
06-16-2007, 01:40 PM
You could make weapons using energetic-type ammo regenerable. No rockets nor nades.
A nice thing would be to have shield absorb energy from shots and saber attacks and reammo them.
One could also sacrifice shield to get additional charges to shoot.

JackBaldy
06-16-2007, 01:51 PM
I'd just like to say that the reason why skills were altered so that they were given after death was to remove the exploitation of people getting skills that were not dynamic, then when spawning they would remove those skills that were not dynamic and choose the dynamic skills which would have them get the best of both worlds.

Faelion
06-16-2007, 02:46 PM
I'd just like to say that the reason why skills were altered so that they were given after death was to remove the exploitation of people getting skills that were not dynamic, then when spawning they would remove those skills that were not dynamic and choose the dynamic skills which would have them get the best of both worlds.

Oh, that is understandable. There was no way around it?

You could make weapons using energetic-type ammo regenerable. No rockets nor nades.
A nice thing would be to have shield absorb energy from shots and saber attacks and reammo them.
One could also sacrifice shield to get additional charges to shoot.

That one sounds pretty good. No "unlimited rockets" factor. Though, I usually don't have any shields. (I like to spend my points)

If it did recharge that way, would power cells be charged?

Edit: maybe with enough good ideas we could have a poll.

Maxstate
06-16-2007, 04:22 PM
Yeah, you could buy every gun, spawn, then unbuy the guns and get all the force powers. There are ways around this but the easiest way was just to deactivate the dynamic process.

TheShaman
06-17-2007, 04:55 AM
Well, in fact I think it's a good idea to need to respawn to apply new points, so you can't make scripts to quickly change your powers an get full lightning, then press another button and get full absorb etc...

Maxstate
06-17-2007, 07:34 AM
Well, in fact I think it's a good idea to need to respawn to apply new points, so you can't make scripts to quickly change your powers an get full lightning, then press another button and get full absorb etc...
There are lots of other ways we could've done this man, it's just that this was the easiest and least time consuming. If we ever get to discuss this part of the system again we should probably brainstorm about some kind of levelup mode that enables you to spend points, or get some kind of randomized spot in maps that'll allow you to buy and sell like some kind of bank thing. I don't know if that's possible without decompiling the map and blabla though.

TheShaman
06-17-2007, 10:58 AM
But this would take years to implement, and it would be pretty much like lugor on some aspects. I don't think it's a priority for OJP, since it's not absolutely necessary.

Faelion
06-17-2007, 01:14 PM
Whether or not the force powers are changeable, gunners still have ammo problems. (aka: still weaker than Jedi)

Jedi have rechargable power. Mercs have flamethrowers, but they were weakened considerably.

Seekers get destroyed quickly (and kill unsuspecting allies sometimes), and sentry turrets don't move.

Force fields are one time use. (needs to come back after a couple mins)

The pistol shoots sooooo slowly. If it had its charge mode maybe it wouldn't be so bad.

The clone rifle is near useless since its shots go everywhere with the mishap-accuracy system.

The rocket launcher has a long reload rate (where you can't even switch weapons while it is loading) and only three shots.

Thermal detonators only knock people down rather than blowing them up. Thermals could be better even with one shot that actually does something.

The blaster rifle doesn't have full auto mode, though it does do decent damage (though with full auto there would be similar problems to the clone rifle).

Cloak doesn't cloak (it makes you "The Blur").

The bowcaster and disruptor are great, while I have ammo. (though I'd like the bowcaster's primary and secondary fires swapped.)

TheShaman
06-17-2007, 02:04 PM
For the bowcaster, I'd want the charge mode removed, and the shots not bouncing.

Gunners are weaker than Jedi in long times. In short ones they are as strong. To avoid long times, LMS could help if it made everybody respawn.

Faelion
06-17-2007, 03:13 PM
To avoid long times, LMS could help if it made everybody respawn.

Everyone respawning, as I said, wouldn't work in CTF. Also, now that I think about it, if everyone respawned in Holocron mode the leader would lose their holocrons. Whether or not that is a good thing could be argued, but I think the leader earned them. The other side is that the leader could stay the leader easily if they still had them.

Maxstate
06-17-2007, 05:35 PM
You should really try one of the newer revisions :)

Faelion
06-17-2007, 09:32 PM
You should really try one of the newer revisions :)

What do you mean? I have 'v'. Is there another?

TheShaman
06-18-2007, 04:38 AM
Yes there is, not a 009letter but a revision (560).

And I still think that respawn is a good idea. In CTF maps you have ammo dispensers, so you don't have to make everybody respawn. And to be honest, CTF LMS wouldn't be very good... once the flag carrier killed his enemies, nobody to stop him heh?
Also in holocron, LMS sounds a bit weird, and would it be that bad to lose your holocrons between each round? It would be far less boring to have to get new ones to fight, more unique combinations, more unique fights.

Maxstate
06-18-2007, 05:29 AM
What do you mean? I have 'v'. Is there another?

Well...

Whether or not the force powers are changeable, gunners still have ammo problems. (aka: still weaker than Jedi)

As Shaman said, Jedi outlive gunners in the long run, but there are viable and easy solutions to that.


Jedi have rechargable power. Mercs have flamethrowers, but they were weakened considerably.

The seeker, sentry, flamethrower and pistol never run out of ammo, but I understand.


Seekers get destroyed quickly (and kill unsuspecting allies sometimes), and sentry turrets don't move.

This is far from the case. The biggest annoyance currently according to my betatesters is the seeker. It just totally ruins gameplay and usually has jedi on their knees before the gunner even has to pull the trigger.


Force fields are one time use. (needs to come back after a couple mins)

I think the gunner in questions needs to be able to "use" them and pick them up, then after a mild cooldown, set it down again.


The pistol shoots sooooo slowly. If it had its charge mode maybe it wouldn't be so bad.

It has a recharge function (that needs some tweaking) and it's fire rate when shot right is just under that of the e-11 I think.


The clone rifle is near useless since its shots go everywhere with the mishap-accuracy system.

If you run, yes. You need to manage your mishap, takes getting used too.


The rocket launcher has a long reload rate (where you can't even switch weapons while it is loading) and only three shots.

It will literally obliterate anything that is already floored, and floor anything that is standing. If there is a weapon that is considered a team weapon, it's the rocket launcher --> two people with 'launchers working in a team can wipe out a whole team by timing their rockets.


Thermal detonators only knock people down rather than blowing them up. Thermals could be better even with one shot that actually does something.

Well now you have a quite overpowered version of the quick/snapthrow working in the latest revisions... and it makes the thermal pretty lame, but very much usable against pretty much anyone. I suggest we just buff it's damage to instakill in a wide area but make it timed only.


The blaster rifle doesn't have full auto mode, though it does do decent damage (though with full auto there would be similar problems to the clone rifle).

The blaster rifle is my weapon of choice --> takes down a jedi in 10 shots or less if they all hit.


Cloak doesn't cloak (it makes you "The Blur").

I actually like the new cloak, it's an improvement over the new one that had blue streaks running through it. Pretty hard to see unless the lighting conditions are just good enough.


The bowcaster and disruptor are great, while I have ammo. (though I'd like the bowcaster's primary and secondary fires swapped.)
[/quote]
I think Shaman has a point. The widespread multishot thing is just too much of a quake 3 thang.

TheShaman
06-18-2007, 11:38 AM
Seeker needs less fire rate (like 1 shot per second, or even 0.5 maybe), half of pistol's damage. Also to make it cooler it should be same shots as pistol (small yellow shots, not big pinkish-red shots) and have same speed as pistol shots.
(Which means: faster projectiles, less damage, less fire rate, yellow shots)

Faelion
06-18-2007, 12:55 PM
As Shaman said, Jedi outlive gunners in the long run, but there are viable and easy solutions to that.


Read the first nonbold line of my starting post. Totally already agree. What are the solutions though?

The seeker, sentry, flamethrower and pistol never run out of ammo, but I understand.


If either the seeker or sentry are destroyed, aren't they gone until the gunner respawns?


If you run, yes. You need to manage your mishap, takes getting used too.


Even while standing still it feels out of control. Does the mishap meter go up less with each shot if you have more experience? That would be a cool feature.


I think the gunner in questions needs to be able to "use" them and pick them up, then after a mild cooldown, set it down again.


I'd vote for that, but what if the force field is destroyed? Should it be gone or should the player still be able to pick up a damaged version with a longer 'cooldown' time (for repairs).


Yes there is, not a 009letter but a revision (560).


How can I get the newer revisions?

It will literally obliterate anything that is already floored, and floor anything that is standing. If there is a weapon that is considered a team weapon, it's the rocket launcher --> two people with 'launchers working in a team can wipe out a whole team by timing their rockets.


Fine, but why can't you swap weapons? (I'm guessing it has something to do with the reloading process being unaviodable because it won't continue to reload after you swap back.)


Pretty hard to see unless the lighting conditions are just good enough.


So cloaking is more hide in the shadows then. Okay.


And I still think that respawn is a good idea. In CTF maps you have ammo dispensers, so you don't have to make everybody respawn.


Where are the ammo dispensers?


And to be honest, CTF LMS wouldn't be very good... once the flag carrier killed his enemies, nobody to stop him heh?


That's what I had in mind. When they get their point everyone may respawn though.


Also in holocron, LMS sounds a bit weird, and would it be that bad to lose your holocrons between each round? It would be far less boring to have to get new ones to fight, more unique combinations, more unique fights.


I was just asking for opinions on that one. I understand what you are saying, but there are still two sides (since 'boring' is relative).

Could there be a cvar that says if everyone respawns? (to get both sides)

TheShaman
06-19-2007, 04:47 AM
A cvar to make everybody respawn or not, according to the server hoster's will? This seems interesting.

As for the latest revisions, they are very well hidden in a topic called OJPE Latest Revisions Thread.
http://lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=179091&page=2

ensiform
06-20-2007, 04:52 PM
As far as respawning goes, you don't have to make it kill people as i said in the previous topic on this. Just make it reset some stats that player_die normally does, and "respawn" as needed.

The ammo dispenser cans are newbie. Should make a way to spawn ammo and health droids in the maps or something like SW:BF2 ;P

Or have jawa's randomly walking around and able to toss packs of ammo and health :S

DarthDie
06-20-2007, 05:29 PM
I vote for the second idea :P.

Faelion
06-21-2007, 07:46 AM
As far as respawning goes, you don't have to make it kill people as i said in the previous topic on this. Just make it reset some stats that player_die normally does, and "respawn" as needed.

The ammo dispenser cans are newbie. Should make a way to spawn ammo and health droids in the maps or something like SW:BF2 ;P

Or have jawa's randomly walking around and able to toss packs of ammo and health :S

The 'stat reset' one is good, but the other two result in camping next to the dispensers (or following them).

TheShaman
06-23-2007, 05:21 PM
Ensiform is our man! Respawning without killing wins!
But as for the Jawas... the idea is funny but well...
By the way, why would we still need ammo or health dispensers?

UDM
06-24-2007, 05:48 AM
How about a feature called "manufacture ammo". Basically, its like an emote that uses the typing animation. When you're in that emote, the ammo for your weapon will recharge. Moving around cancels the emote

TheShaman
06-24-2007, 06:38 AM
Good idea, I'm for a reloading system, but then the gun needs a clip, and an ammo pool (pretty much like MB2), otherwise gunners would have infinite ammo, which is very bad.

UDM
06-24-2007, 07:03 AM
Its not really infinite ammo. What happens is ammo recharges slowly depending on which gun you're using. Maybe the E11 recharges at a rate of 4 rounds every second, while while the rocket launcher reloads at 1 round every 15 seconds, but this can only be done when you're in the "manufacture ammo" emote. This means you can't run while manufacturing your ammo. You'll need to stop, get into that emote (just like how Jedi need to sit in order to recharge dp and fp at a decent rate)

Maxstate
06-24-2007, 08:54 AM
Agrizzled.

TheShaman
06-24-2007, 09:05 AM
DP always regens 6 per second (if FP >= 10), though.
But well, even if it's very low, it's still infinite ammo... so they should be able to reload a certain ammount of ammo, but after a big while (imagine a player playing FFA, he doesn't die for 30 min because he pwns all) he should run out of ammo. This makes Jedi last longer than gunners, while gunners could beat a Jedi when they are "fresh" and at full power.

Faelion
06-24-2007, 07:04 PM
Why not use both UDM's and ensiform's ideas? UDM's is good during a long match and ensiform's is good at the end of any LMS match.
Using one or the other is bad for gameplay. Using only UDM's idea, gunners winning an LMS match would be beaten by gunners that died. Using only ensiform's idea would he bad during long games of any type.

I think that these would be pretty good if balanced times were given to UDM's idea. (15 seconds is a long time.)

TheShaman
06-25-2007, 09:53 AM
This would mean everybody respawns between LMS rounds (I like), and gunners would be able to create ammo out of nowhere (I like, but not completely).

Gunners should have an ammo pool, which they use to manufacture their ammo that goes in the gun. Maybe we should make an ammo pool size skill (cheap) which increases the ammount of ammo that is held in the pool, so the gunner can refill his gun a lot if he spends points in this.

UDM
06-26-2007, 07:10 AM
And if the ammo pool's 0 as well, then what?

madcatmach2
06-26-2007, 11:06 AM
as i said before....fisty cufs it works surprisingly well

TheShaman
06-26-2007, 03:25 PM
If ammo pool is on 0, then the gunner cannot recharge his gun anymore. That's life.

Faelion
06-26-2007, 03:45 PM
If ammo pool is on 0, then the gunner cannot recharge his gun anymore. That's life.

That's a little harsh don't you think? Then gunners, once again, will not be able to last as long as Jedi. Or do you suggest, for some sake of realism, that they should not?

TheShaman
06-27-2007, 11:27 AM
That's exatly the point. Gunners are good on short term, Jedi on long term. A Jedi is meant to survive, while a gunner is meant to quickly take out his foes.

UDM
06-28-2007, 09:42 AM
If you want to have an ammo pool system and yet still give them limit their ammo pool...then whats the point of having an ammo pool? I mean why do you want an ammo pool system that serves no other purpose other than waste people's time to reload? The whole point now is how to let gunners have ammo without nerfing them totally

I think a player with good aiming skills should be given the chance to survive instead of /kill just so he can continue having fun

If you don't agree, you could always start a poll and see how many people are in favour of your idea

TheShaman
06-28-2007, 12:40 PM
The point of a limited ammo pool is not to let gunners have infinite ammo, that's all, because it's just impossible to have infinite ammo.

Yango
06-28-2007, 01:38 PM
Uh maybe a buyable ammo droid that you'd have to hide and protect that would give you ammo. Once it gets destroyed you could steal your enemies' one or use yours allies'. And yeah it could manufacture ammo using energy (from shield pickups? may drain your shield) in case of energetic ammo and -maybe- some rubbish in case of other stuff. It could automatically collect low amounts of materials when moving. It could be somehow remotely operated.

madcatmach2
06-28-2007, 02:21 PM
how about we use this
http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/5396/shot0001tj3.jpg
you place it somewhere like the sentry droid and can be destroyed for balance issues so a player would have to hide it somewhere. Buying it with a skill points, it regens all your energy ammo so it dosn't allow unlimited missiles or det's and gunners can still have something to fall back on in long fights.

DarthDie
06-28-2007, 03:22 PM
Thats a good idea.

Yango
06-28-2007, 04:02 PM
Would't it be too easy to find and destroy? Atleast you should be able to pick it up and put in a different place. A feature to cloak it would be nice too.

TheShaman
06-29-2007, 06:15 AM
I like the idea, except the cloak part.

It should have a base pool of a certain ammount, and regen very slowly.
Once it's set, it should be pickable again.
But for balance issues, it should be destroyable (give it 50 hp or so), and it shouldn't regenerate it's pool while not placed (in inventory). So you can't just place it, empty it, pick it again and let it regen, you have to hide it somewhere to let it regenerate.

Faelion
06-29-2007, 11:23 AM
I like the idea, except the cloak part.

It should have a base pool of a certain ammount, and regen very slowly.
Once it's set, it should be pickable again.
But for balance issues, it should be destroyable (give it 50 hp or so), and it shouldn't regenerate it's pool while not placed (in inventory). So you can't just place it, empty it, pick it again and let it regen, you have to hide it somewhere to let it regenerate.

No way! Then a large portion of a long game would be spent guarding the dispenser.
At least say "half (or even 1/4) recharge rate while in inventory".
The game would become so dull if you had to guard it while it was recharging.
Just make a benefit to have it out; not a requirement.

(Why aren't UDM's and ensiform's ideas good enough?)

In defense of UDM's idea, it is not infinite at a given point in time. (you have to finish a fight before you can recharge) How is that worse than a dispenser? Ammo dispensers would also charge almost everything at one time (not rockets or dets as said above).
An unlimited ammo pool would not result in four or more rockets being fired in succession.

madcatmach2
06-29-2007, 12:14 PM
An unlimited ammo pool would not result in four or more rockets being fired in succession.no just a guy camping some where firing them constantly and only rockets
The game would become so dull if you had to guard it while it was recharging.
Just make a benefit to have it out; not a requirement.or you just don't place it out until you need the ammo so then your no guarding it forever. i don't guard my sentry gun that much and besides just find a better spot to hide it. i can name quite a few out of the way spots to hide things in just the base maps alone.

Faelion
06-29-2007, 01:51 PM
no just a guy camping some where firing them constantly and only rockets
or you just don't place it out until you need the ammo so then your no guarding it forever. i don't guard my sentry gun that much and besides just find a better spot to hide it. i can name quite a few out of the way spots to hide things in just the base maps alone.

You don't guard a sentry gun; it shoots! If anything it guards you.

Camping isn't any worse or better with an ammo dispenser. If rockets did take 15 seconds then it certainly wouldn't be constantly.

Camping can be done with a disruptor more easily than a rocket launcher. Disruptors would get ammo from either, but if I remember correctly the ammo dispensers you want to use spill out ammo very quickly.

The reload time on a rocket launcher alone would be enough to get to him and kill him. Now, 15 seconds? Enough to chase him all over the map! (but he needs to be stationary so... there isn't a problem with stopping them)

Rockets are not an issue; disruptors are dangerous! More so with an ammo dispenser that resupplies them quickly.

However, no one has specified how long the ammo dispenser would recharge. Too short a time spams disruptors, too long is rather annoying. Either way it may be, just remember it doesn't take a fully charged ammo dispenser to provide a disruptor with a fully charged shot.

TheShaman
06-29-2007, 02:00 PM
Maybe make the ammo dispenser have a 100 ammo recharge potential, recharging 1 per second while set, and 1 per 10 seconds while in the inventory.

Yango
06-30-2007, 06:44 AM
Hey they would not be THAT valuable to sit and protect it all the time. You can always look for dead (or not) opponents' dispenser.
If they were able to regenerate while in inventory I'd kill the whole thing. The trick is to hide it and come back when you're out of ammo making sure nobody follows you. As maps are not designed to hide things I'd give it cloak.
And the regen rate should be like 1 ammo point per 2-3 seconds. To get 100 ammo I'd take around 4 minutes. Of course once the ammo is in the dispenser you could grab the whole pool instantly.

Faelion
06-30-2007, 01:42 PM
If they were able to regenerate while in inventory I'd kill the whole thing.

Why so against having a reliable source of ammo?

The trick is to hide it and come back when you're out of ammo making sure nobody follows you. As maps are not designed to hide things I'd give it cloak.

Like you said, maps aren't designed to hide things. That means that there are only so many hiding places. That means that if you leave it somewhere, that place may be one of the popular hiding spots since it seems good (and thus not a good one). So there aren't good hiding spots; get it? If you find a dark shady corner, why wouldn't another gunner?

To sum it up again, dark places become the most obvious places to put them, so they may as well not be dark since everyone will put theirs there.

There would be dispensers in every dark spot. Sure, could be useful for gunners, but Jedi could just blow all of them to tiny pieces and the gunners would all have nothing at all.

By the way, would Jedi be able to see it with level 3 force sense?

Just let gunners have an item that recharges their gun after a long time standing still (or walking or something). (UDM's idea)

TheShaman
06-30-2007, 05:34 PM
Still, cloak is a bad idea I think, how to find an opponent's cloaked dispenser? And I'm not sure it could be done easily.
Also, there are maps where you can hide something easily, maybe not base maps, but big maps that we usually play on are fine to hide (jedi's home, racing something, naboohills...)

razorace
06-30-2007, 05:51 PM
I think a deployable ammo generator isn't realistic. Limited ammo is realistic. If you're running out of ammo too quickly, you need to take more ammo and the pistol, which has unlimited ammo.

Yango
06-30-2007, 06:04 PM
I personally don't have any problems with running out of ammo, but if we say that blasters shoot with pure energy they may use "personal shield generators" battery. Like 1 point of shield = 1 ammo point. Works like ammo pickups.
Lighsabers are unrealistic as well, cause they dissipate lots of energy producing heat and don't need any source of it.

TheShaman
06-30-2007, 06:42 PM
This makes it a lot easier. Anyway the ammo management isn't a priority, is it?
And please don't start discussing lightsaber realism... I've already engaged in long debates about it, and trust me, it's unhealthy for everyone's brain. The best is to admit there is a very very powerful energy cell in the lightsaber, which has nearly infinite energy, and so the lightsaber can stay up long for hoooooours of OJP :D

Faelion
06-30-2007, 07:21 PM
I think a deployable ammo generator isn't realistic. Limited ammo is realistic. If you're running out of ammo too quickly, you need to take more ammo and the pistol, which has unlimited ammo.
I always have a pistol and I don't have a weapon unless I can afford all of the ammo spots (the flamethrower an the other gear are the alternatives). Pistols have long intervals between shots; and ammo runs out during long matches for the other weapons.
(though I don't think that a deployable ammo generator is good; I think their should be some way to recharge)

razorace
06-30-2007, 08:03 PM
It's been established that blasters use a form of gas for ammo, not pure energy.

TheShaman
07-01-2007, 05:04 AM
I'm not surprised, since shots are plasma (gas being so hot that it loses it's electrons and becomes ions, so basically, hot ions). Although, jetpack uses fuel, and it regenerates, heh where's the mistake...?

Maxstate
07-01-2007, 06:21 AM
The funny thing is that Jetpack is supposed to be Jump's rival, with it's regenerative ability and such and the problem lies with it being too easy to buy alongside of Jump, which cancels out it's effect.

TheShaman
07-01-2007, 06:35 AM
Always the same problem, balance over realism... I'm probably alone with that mind, but I'd prefer an unbalanced realistic game, than a well balanced with ridiculous things one.

Yango
07-01-2007, 06:51 AM
"It's been established that blasters use a form of gas for ammo, not pure energy."
Uh, if those forms of gas are present in maps atmosphere there could be a device to separate and collect some, right? Again, alot of energy is needed to form plasma so my shield suggestion still applies.

TheShaman: I'm with you, until I'm to play with (relatively) large amount of anonymous opponents.

Maxstate
07-01-2007, 07:14 AM
How about a seperate thread for blasters, reloading and ammo pools so we don't clog up an entire thread on one subject?

Faelion
07-01-2007, 09:00 AM
Always the same problem, balance over realism... I'm probably alone with that mind, but I'd prefer an unbalanced realistic game, than a well balanced with ridiculous things one.

What? Balanced games are the only good ones! You cannot make one side more powerful. Games don't need to be realistic, but they do need to be fun. Getting KOed all of the time isn't fun if the main reason you got beaten is because you enjoy blasters more than a saber. Gunner battles shouldn't turn out like Kyle's first encounter with Desann. You probably could have beaten him if he was not invincible...

So, would you really enjoy realism over fun? I would not.

TheShaman
07-01-2007, 11:38 AM
Exactly as I said, except I didn't except Yango to agree with me :) <3

I prefer being forced to lose an amazingly realistic game than to be able to win an unrealistic one.

Here's an example:
I'd totally love a game where you are able to pick any Jedi in the geonosis arena, and try to survive against all those droids, knowing that you won't succeed anyway. If the game is well done, I don't care about losing. In this case, realism is more important than balance.

Yango
07-02-2007, 07:25 AM
Whoops I think meant "unless" not "until"..
I mean when you play with bunch of friends you can adjust rules so the game is balanced and at the same time has many possibilities. You usually can't do that on servers with heavy traffic.

Lathain Valtiel
07-02-2007, 07:29 AM
*Blinks* If you want to make it fair AND realistic, why not put a maximum cap on how many points of Force can be regenerated over one, ah, 'life' until the body simply 'gives out' and you can't generate any more?

Even Jedi have to sleep EVENTUALLY.

Maxstate
07-02-2007, 09:03 AM
If that were the case, meditation would help. But yeah I think we just need the recharge/slow ammo regen ideas.

TheShaman
07-02-2007, 09:04 AM
Well everyone has to sleep, but you can stay up for hours and hours in a row, can't you? So does a Jedi, and even more probably... this can be neglected in a game, because only few people will play 20+ hours in a row :D

Lathain Valtiel
07-05-2007, 02:19 AM
Meditation is not sleep.

I don't see what would inherently be wrong with a maximum regeneration cap. It effectively creates a semi-even playing field by saying both sides are going to wear out eventually. Wouldn't even need an ammo recharge gimmick.

Yango
07-05-2007, 07:49 AM
Well imagine a jedi with 0 force and all it's consequences against a merc with unlimited pistol.
I don't like it unless it's toggleable ^^

Lathain Valtiel
07-05-2007, 10:54 AM
Frankly the insinuation is that:

1) You actually got him down to just pistol, the last resort, and you have no backup weapon. Even Obi-Wan pulled a pistol when the chips were down.

and

2) You didn't kill him before you ran out of force. The pistol is nowhere near as good as you're implying.

If both are true you deserve to be killed so easily since the idea mandates a fairly generous cap that I envision would last a tad longer than a relatively full ammo stock. Every other possible situation boils down to either bad luck or poor planning, and in both instances you should die.

Maxstate
07-29-2007, 06:09 PM
I think we need drastic changes to the way gun vs jedi works right now. It's far too unrealistic and sluggish/chunkish to play with as it is :(

Here goes:

HALF the dp damage (deflection damage) some guns do now, LOWER the amount of HP damage they do, drastically increase their fire rate to almost double what it is now.

This won't change a lot in survivability of jedi and gunners, but it will enable gunners to fire off a lot more rounds before the jedi comes close and manage the damage they do a lot more while simultaneously being the commanding force that governs the distance between the gunner and the target. The difference it'll make now is that gunners will have a lot more viable options up close and will be able to hit jedi a lot more often that way (even if for far less damage, it adds up). Jedi will actually feel more like jedi and not like ... well... guys that got a few lucky deflects if you don't mind me putting it that way.

It'll look better, feel better, give more opportunity for heated battles where strategy and wit count and will certainly make aiming something to fear.

Also, the critical range for DP should be lowered a lot. With 60 DP I'm already flashing and moving a lot slower than I should be at 35 DP sometimes which makes it hard to kill gunners. If we're making the switch to a 100(%) dp pool, then 35 would seem fair.
This should change the current jedi vs gunner (and gunner vs gunner) dynamic a bit in favour of faster, but ALSO more thought out action.

madcatmach2
07-29-2007, 11:30 PM
HALF the dp damage (deflection damage) some guns do now, LOWER the amount of HP damage they do, drastically increase their fire rate to almost double what it is now.do my eyes deceive me or is maxstate actully asking to increase the rate of fire O_O

Maxstate
07-30-2007, 01:53 AM
Holy **** I'm an idiot! That idea should primarily work for the e-11 and should be tweaked for the clone rifle, sorry about that.

razorace
07-30-2007, 01:19 PM
Also, the critical range for DP should be lowered a lot. With 60 DP I'm already flashing and moving a lot slower than I should be at 35 DP sometimes which makes it hard to kill gunners. If we're making the switch to a 100(%) dp pool, then 35 would seem fair.
Don't look at me. I wasn't in fair of making people with critical DP move slower. :|

Maxstate
07-30-2007, 01:21 PM
Don't look at me. I wasn't in fair of making people with critical DP move slower. :|
I know exactly who's to 'blame'. don't worry :) I just can't say anything directly anymore without the banality filter picking up my posts as a fight-starter.

[Alpha]-0mega-
07-31-2007, 06:29 AM
It kinda makes sense to me.
Compare dodge points with your current condition.
The more hits you have to dodge, the more tired you get, until you're in the critical range, where you can just barely dodge a move before being too exhausted to jump or slide out of the way =P. (even though the usually matrix style dodge animations don't really seem to show dodging as a tiring process, lol)

Maxstate
07-31-2007, 06:59 AM
-0mega-']It kinda makes sense to me.
Compare dodge points with your current condition.
The more hits you have to dodge, the more tired you get, until you're in the critical range, where you can just barely dodge a move before being too exhausted to jump or slide out of the way =P. (even though the usually matrix style dodge animations don't really seem to show dodging as a tiring process, lol)
What post or idea are you talking about?