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Tysyacha
06-19-2007, 10:58 PM
"It is said that the Force has a will..."

Kreia left me wondering how the Force (in her analogy, comparable to God)
decides who will live and who will die to maintain balance, and who shall
turn to the Light Side or the Dark. Perhaps this is what she wished to kill...

The following selection is from George Orwell's 1984. Notably,
Winston Smith never reads this part of "The Book" IN the book:

The heavenly masters -- the gods -- were cast in the mold of the ruling class (the "High" of Chapter 1) and require similar sacrifices. Because the rulers were themselves the product of alienated thought, the heavenly masters -- even God himself -- could not hope to be anything other than alienated. What were honest, self-respecting people to think of these "gods," who are supposedly robed in omnipotence and yet are beholden to human beings and their stupid prayers as if the "gods" were not fundamentally different from the earthly masters, who are answerable to their human slaves? Are these Gods -- is God -- then merely the sum of absent life? No, not even that. God is merely the gaping void that swallows up the impotence that we call the "power" of the strong and the rich, and all the despair that we call the "hope" of the weak and poor. God is merely the totalitarian projection of the economics of exchange and survival. "He" is nothing more than the false illusion of life.

And yet many people blithely proclaim that God is dead, and therefore powerless. It is quite true that the death of God created the chaos out of which both the person of and the need for Big Brother came. But even the self-avowed atheists continue to genuflect. God is "dead" as a sovereign entity, as master of the world, but he lives on in the very power structures that originally gave birth to him by submitting humanity to economic alienation, to thought separated from life, and to human bodies weakened, mutilated or broken in the name of labor. There is no God whose power is not based on the negation of life and on the inversion of pleasures; there is no power that is not based on God and the oppressive and hierarchical "natural order of things" he both created and was created by.

And so it remains true that the first critique is the critique of religion; the first revolt is against the supreme tyrannies of theology and the phantom of God. Ever since the fantasy of a Divine Being took shape in humanity's imagination, God -- all gods, and among them above all the God of the Christians -- has always taken the side of the strong and the rich against the ignorant and impoverished masses. Through his presence, he has blessed the most revolting privileges, the basest oppressions, and the vilest of exploitations.

As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth, and our reason and ability to create our own lives will be annulled. As long as we believe that we must unconditionally obey -- and, vis-a-vis God, no other obedience is possible -- we must of necessity passively and totally submit, without the least reservation, to the holy authority of all his agents, messiahs, prophets, divinely-inspired lawmakers, emperors, kings, and all their functionaries and ministers, representatives and consecrated servants of the two greatest institutions which impose themselves upon us, and which are established by God himself to rule over men and women -- namely, the Church and the State. All temporal or human authority stems directly from spiritual and/or divine authority.

Authority is the negation of freedom, of human self-determination and self-management. God, or rather the fiction of God, is the consecration and the intellectual and moral source of all slavery on earth, and the freedom of humanity will never be complete until the disastrous and insidious fiction of a heavenly master is annihilated. To annihilate totally hierarchical power and thereby bring about human equality, it is necessary to annihilate God; to "kill" God, it is necessary to annihilate totally hierarchical earthly power. This is the inner secret of the slogan GOD IS POWER.

I think Kreia, even as she manipulated and used others as she did in The Sith Lords, would be horrified at her own manipulation by the Force.

So, if I want to be free, what's the solution? Not believe in God? Even if I don't believe in God, there are things I still have to obey on earth, like laws and my supervisor if I still want a job. To me, freedom is NOT being under constant surveillance, having the power to think for myself and decide what I want to believe on my own, and having coercion and belief NOT go hand in hand for me. Why should I be put on a list if I check out library books under the Patriot Act or be content with the perhaps-false info I get from both political parties? I don't want to sacrifice my civil liberties for safety, folks.

If I'm one of the "Proles", as Orwell puts it, what can I do to break free and rise? Not in order to control others or torture them or anything, but just to have power beyond the basics of life (working, eating, drinking, reproducing?)

Do I make any sense at all? If not, I'm sorry...just wanted to add my .02.

Sincerely,
Tysyacha

True_Avery
06-20-2007, 12:16 AM
I make different answers to questions like that on a daily basis.

In my opinion there is no such thing as Freedom. America is not the land of the Free, it is only the land of people that have a few more rights than others. Americans follow laws, they follow opinion, they follow religion, they follow what the media tells them to follow. That applies to all people. As far as opinion goes, we are all controled to an extent by things around us and thing that have happened in our own life.

Now, basic things like the Laws of Physics cannot be broken from. Those shall always be in place and there is no physical way to break those bonds. You cannot lift things with your mind, you cannot fly by will alone, you cannot read minds. But, I am sure that is obvious.

If I'm one of the "Proles", as Orwell puts it, what can I do to break free and rise? Not in order to control others or torture them or anything, but just to have power beyond the basics of life (working, eating, drinking, reproducing?)
Well, now you are questioning what makes us animals, or at least makes us living. You need to eat to live as well as drink, that is absolutely impossible to get around because it falls under the laws of physics and the laws of science.

Reproducing? Some people are capable of breaking those shackles or at least pretending they dont exist. I personally have no desire to have sex at all in my entire life, but I don't really see how that would make me any more free than others.

Working? Well, you can choose not to work but then the laws of society come into play. then you have no house, no money, just your life which then means less than nothing to society.

So, if I want to be free, what's the solution? Not believe in God? Even if I don't believe in God, there are things I still have to obey on earth, like laws and my supervisor if I still want a job. To me, freedom is NOT being under constant surveillance, having the power to think for myself and decide what I want to believe on my own, and having coercion and belief NOT go hand in hand for me. Why should I be put on a list if I check out library books under the Patriot Act or be content with the perhaps-false info I get from both political parties? I don't want to sacrifice my civil liberties for safety, folks.
We are controled by the society we live in. Our morals of right and wrong, our beliefs in religion, how to treat others, what to think, how free can we think. Believing God exists or not is still a belief, and thus by your definition you are being controled by that belief either way.Thats what I think anyway.

So, to answer your question as a whole:

In order to become free... in order to fall under your own definition of free... you would have to be dead or be a God. It is not possible as a human to be a free as you say might be possible.

Not the best thing to say, but to acheive your own level of freedom you would have to kill yourself or die. Just... don't go jumping out any windows anytime soon, kay?

I may have missread your post though.

SilentScope001
06-20-2007, 02:25 AM
If I'm one of the "Proles", as Orwell puts it, what can I do to break free and rise? Not in order to control others or torture them or anything, but just to have power beyond the basics of life (working, eating, drinking, reproducing?)

I actually think you are likely to be in the Outer Party (middle class) actually, considering that there is vast poverty in Africa and Asia that would make your situation look like Heavenly. That, however, is little comfort, as the Outer Party is in fact controlled the most by the Inner Party (rich class), the Proles are allowed freedom to think...because they have no power to do anything.

I do think you are taking 1984 a bit too seriously. It is a nice book, but some concepts, like doublethink, are hard to understand, and the biggest flaw of the Oceanian dictatorship is the fact that once you are in power, and you stay in power, what's the whole point of living? Remember, even God can suffer in this world, by boredom, and prehaps, this is why Oceania invented its own enemies.

To save you, I'll redirect you to the Oceania's Code:

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
WAR IS PEACE.

Now, you are feeling sad that you are being enslaved, right? Well, you can simply suppress that thought and be happy. Ignorance is strength in your convinctions after all (not to mention bliss). And, besides, how can you truly be free, unless you live forever (and then become God, and then suffer through the greatest of all fears...boredom)? And even then, it seems a bit ironic that if you are "free", you are really just enslaved to your own desires and beliefs, therefore, you are never going to escape slavery anyway, no matter how you try (hence Freedom is Slavery). And, lastly, War is Peace. Outside war with all your "enemies" lead to inner peace within yourself, as you redirect all your hatred to the outside world, and therefore, won't have to confront it at all.

Sure, sure, you can interpret those messages however you want, but I choose them to interpert it this way. Oceania's government really does make sense if you think about it.

But if you want to go and rise from Proles/Outer Party into the Inner Party circle, there is only one way to do it: Run for public office.

EDIT: Oh, and and since I do like Kreia a bit, Smash The Force! :D

Darth InSidious
06-20-2007, 09:35 AM
Exile: So you lied to me.
Kreia: Yes. From the very moment you awoke on Peragus, I have been lying to you, manipulating you.

(Or words to that effect.)

All of Kreia's words point towards a specific goal. Therefore they are not balanced or entirely true. Is she right? According to Star Wars morality, no. But then in KotOR, stealing cash is a neutral act...

Let's try another system. Any theological system would clearly be invalid - since the Force acts as a sort of deity, asking whether killing it is right from a theistic/deistic position is a no-brainer. Utilitarianism? Would it make more people happy in the long run? Too difficult to tell, IMO. Situation ethics? Can't really apply it here. What would Kant say?

Ah. Here we have an answer. Since not killing is in all probability a categorical imperative, killing the Force is wrong.

:)

SilentScope001
06-20-2007, 12:02 PM
Ah. Here we have an answer. Since not killing is in all probability a categorical imperative, killing the Force is wrong.

Ah, but where's all the proof that killing is wrong? Besides, don't the Jedi kill Sith? Therefore, are the Jedi committing wrongs? And don't we have to stop the Jedi from committing the wrongs, by preventing people from hearing The Force that tells them to kill the Sith? :)

Exile: So you lied to me.
Kreia: Yes. From the very moment you awoke on Peragus, I have been lying to you, manipulating you.

I think the correct quote is:

Kreia: Yes, I have used you. From the moment you awoke, I have used you. I have used you to make you strong, stronger than I.

Darth InSidious
06-20-2007, 12:13 PM
Ah, but where's all the proof that killing is wrong? Besides, don't the Jedi kill Sith? Therefore, are the Jedi committing wrongs? And don't we have to stop the Jedi from committing the wrongs, by preventing people from hearing The Force that tells them to kill the Sith? :)

Perform the first formulation of the categorical imperative, and I think you will see what I mean ;)

Thanks for the correction on the quote, BTW :)

SilentScope001
06-20-2007, 04:07 PM
Perform the first formulation of the categorical imperative, and I think you will see what I mean

Oh, the universal law. If it is okay to do something, then everyone OUGHT to do something. The most strangest of rules. It is not okay to lie, because then if it is okay to lie, then everyone ought to lie and soceity will collaspe. Except, well, societies can exist where people OUGHT to lie, (say the Sith), so society won't suffer at all. And why can't you have specific cases and exceptions? "It is not okay to imprison someone, because if it is okay to imprison someone, then everyone OUGHT to imprison people, which means innocent people as well, and that would be wrong. Let those criminals go!"

Plus, Kant mentions that men are better than animals, due to the fact that humans can think and animals, well, can't. If you say, "It's not okay to kill an energy field", then you are also saying it's not okay to kill animals, which wasn't what Kant intended.

I dislike Kant's views in general, but I rather prefer the second part of the cateogircal imperative: Treat man as an ends, not as a means. Well, The Force does treat men as an means rather than as an ends, if we believe in Kreia, and since The Force is an energy field, and not human, we could go off and kill it.

But what if the Force is able to think? If it is sentient, if it has just as much intelligence as a regural human being, and is a rational agent, then we CANNOT kill it, if we accept Kant's moral views. But since we do not know for certain how intelligent the Force is, it is better to assume The Force is not intelligent and dispose of such a terrible sight.

But defeaning people from hearing The Force is also another possiblity. You don't kill the Force, so you avoid Kant's problems, instead, you get rid of the manlipuative aspects of The Force, so that man is treated as an ends, not as a means.

...You know, I think this wasn't exactly what the OP was intending...

Tysyacha
06-21-2007, 08:32 PM
SilentScope001,

You are hitting on EXACTLY what I was intending, which is this: If Kreia intended for her "kill the Force" plans to be analogous to "killing God", what she may really want is for man to be "treated as an ends, not as a means," as you said in the last part of your post. The whole reason why I started this discussion was something I was told:

"It's a matter of who controls you," said one of my pastors when I was about 9.
"Either God controls you or Satan does. Let yourself be controlled by the Holy Spirit and not by sin/the flesh/human nature." I completely got the shivers, fearing being controlled by the Devil, but what I never thought about is that control by God can be scary, too. I am not a machine (robot) or a puppet (empty shell, no soul) or a pawn on a chessboard (inanimate, not alive, can only be 'moved' for certain purposes.)

Maybe I'm just deluding myself that I'm NOT these things, but the idea of being controlled by something outside of myself just scares me. I'm scared of the negative passions within myself (hatred, jealousy, etc.), but what scares me more is that I'm a "piece of meat" or a pawn in a game, something worthless that can be disposed of.

If Kreia kills the Force, that means she's free. If the Exile can live without the Force, that means that Kreia can kill it without destroying life. Again...I'm trying to make sense, but I fear I'm doing a poor job of it. Someone direct me to "Clarity Hall"...

SilentScope001
06-22-2007, 12:11 PM
Tysyacha, the good news is that while you may be a pawn, you could also rise to be a puppetter.

I think some people believe that while The Force/God does control people, it acts benevloently. That quote of: Either God controls you or Satan controls you...explains some stuff.

I think that while Kreia hated the Force, she didn't wish to kill it for the whole human race. She would rather just have it die and have at least one person get out of its reach. That person was, of course, The Exile. Kreia also mentioned that her crusade will fail, that The Exile will be the only person in Star Wars who given up The Force.

My own personal fanon believes that The Exile, by being similar to Darth Nihilus and having great Force Bonds and growing more powerful by killing, has actually been turned into a Force God. This is not saying that The Exile has great power levels like Revan and Luke, I'm saying that The Exile is begining to have more control over the galaxy, a la The Force, via those Force Bonds. In other words, I believe that at the end of K2, The Exile has became a seperate personality of The Force, able to convince other people (like the Lost Jedi) the same way God/Devil controls people. But, that's just fanon, and I know many people disagree. Kreia may have known this, and may have taught The Exile, in order to make sure that The Exile does not give up this gift, and may really want to turn The Exile into a mini-Kreia, controlling the galaxy and running it in the best interest of the people. Then again, Kreia may not.

It will also be contradicted by the eventual K3, I'm sure, but until then, there is one way to clear the skies. I doubt that Obisidan really want to make the story clear. I seen very great stories been created by stringing together stuff together thereby increasing the replayabilty value by having people play the game over and over to find hidden tibidts and try to figure out how the story actually works. Some people condemn it for designer laziness, but I think it really is quite awesome to have us, the players, decide the story.

True_Avery
06-22-2007, 01:55 PM
Tysyacha, the good news is that while you may be a pawn, you could also rise to be a puppetter.
How so?

My own personal fanon believes that The Exile, by being similar to Darth Nihilus and having great Force Bonds and growing more powerful by killing, has actually been turned into a Force God. This is not saying that The Exile has great power levels like Revan and Luke, I'm saying that The Exile is begining to have more control over the galaxy, a la The Force, via those Force Bonds. In other words, I believe that at the end of K2, The Exile has became a seperate personality of The Force, able to convince other people (like the Lost Jedi) the same way God/Devil controls people. But, that's just fanon, and I know many people disagree. Kreia may have known this, and may have taught The Exile, in order to make sure that The Exile does not give up this gift, and may really want to turn The Exile into a mini-Kreia, controlling the galaxy and running it in the best interest of the people. Then again, Kreia may not.
I actually believe something similar myself. It is pure fanon, as far as we know, but still a good idea in my opinion. Although Kreia did not want Exile to actually control control people persay, as she looks down at you if you are Dark Side, but being able to live without the control of the Force over you and becoming, as you said, a mini-diety in your own right by having control over all you come in contact with by just naturally be around people. Kreia saw the Exile as a way to kill the Force, but also what it looks like to be dead to the Force... free to make your own fate, your own decisions. Fun thought, but as you said not widely accepted.

SilentScope001
06-22-2007, 02:24 PM
How so?

Run your own church. Get elected to public office. Write books promoting your view. Whatever you want to do in order to influence other people to see stuff your way. Do whatever it takes to control someone else's view. Yes, you are still controlled, but by controlling someone else, it does grant you a bit of joy in life and can make you happy.

Take advantage of what you see as unfair in society rather than complain about it.