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GarfieldJL
06-19-2007, 10:14 PM
Seriously, I for one don't think it's appropriate for teachers to try to press political viewpoints on students especially young children however it appears this is what is starting to happen now. If someone tried to teach the Bible in a public Elementry school in the US they'd get suspended at the very least. However, it's okay to teach people left wing ideology?

http://www.city-journal.org/html/16_3_ed_school.html

It's hard to find anything on the topic online though it aired tonight in the news. Trying to incorporate left-wing ideology into school math classes to press upon children liberal beliefs.

Seriously Math class doesn't need to be politicized.


This organization's home site:
http://www.radicalmath.org/browse_category.php?cat=Data%20Analysis
http://www.radicalmath.org/main.php?id=SocialJusticeMath

True_Avery
06-19-2007, 10:57 PM
Ok, first off please drop the political bias for a second. You start out with the title "Pressing political viewpoints on kids in school... ", a title I assumed to be about pressing -any- political view onto kids. Then I read it to find you raving about "left-wing" and "liberals" and how they are effecting our children. For one, left-wing and liberal are not the same thing in case you never realized that. You would have been better starting with:

"Seriously, I for one don't think it's appropriate for teachers to try to press political viewpoints on students especially young children however it appears this is what is starting to happen now. If someone tried to teach the Bible in a public Elementry school in the US they'd get suspended at the very least. However, it's okay to teach people political and opinion based ideology?"

You may not have meant it, but I got a small feeling that this is pointed at the teachings of left-wings and liberals and leaving the right-wings as the ones that are right. Again, you might not have meant it but I got the subtle feeling from the wording.

----------

Now, onto the actual topic.

The idea is interesting and I would have gladly welcomed it into my math class to make it more interesting. But I would only support it if the math figures being presented were unbiased facts.

You do have a point about it brainwashing kids. The Nazi's used math equations and other such things in schools to brainwash German children into hating Jews and believing that the physically and mentally impaired are not human. Putting figures of society in classes, especially ones that are probably biased, is no way to teach kids/teens outside of a political class or something of the sort.

But, now this is only first glance, the idea does seem interesting. You go to school to get ready for real life, so why not learn about -actual- life in the process? Lets say for a second that the facts are checked by many different people before being taught and are almost completely unbiased to any one source:

Prisons, racial profiling, death penalty
Poverty, minimum/living wage, sweatshops
Housing, gentrification, homeownership, loans
War, defense budgets, military recruiting
Public Health: AIDS, asthma, health insurance, diabetes, smoking
Educational access, funding, testing, achievement gaps
Environment: pollution, hunger, food and water resources
Welfare, TANF, single mothers
Immigration

As far as I can tell, those are all real-life things that people deal with everyday. Sorry, but thats the truth. Now, if you teach kids in school about these real life problems, teach them the good and bad and the figures behind each one does that not give kids a good look at what life is like without a good education, without a job, without looking out for your health? Could it possibly inspire kids to stay in school, not abuse their life, not attempt to ruin the lives of others because they are aware of what their actions can do?

Now, this coming from someone who's favorite subject was history, what really is the problem with putting things that are in english/history all the time and placing them into math? I learned about the good and bad, the causes and effects of the World Wars were in history and it gave me a better look at the world because I was seeing the world for what it truly is and what it was outside my own life. Math is boring as hell for a lot of us, so why not add a bit of history into it to spice it up? Maybe present day history, as this thread is about, could also be placed into math to make word problems more interesting than:

"Alex went to the store to buy 3 apples. She only has 5 dollars, and each apple costs 1 dollar. How much money will Alex have when she leaves the store?"

But, as you pointed out, this also falls heavily onto the teachers themselves. I read the some of the first link you posted and I will agree with you that some of the teachers are a little fanatic and too biased to really be trusted to teach this. But, 1 teacher does not make an entire idea stupid. 1 idiot president does not make the idea of Democracy a failed idea. This could actually be taught and to be quite honest I had some math lessons that dealt with current and past history and history classes and dealt with a lot of math.

And besides, even if the schools do nothing at all to "brainwash" kids to follow political views their parents or the TV will tell them what to believe anyway. I doubt putting a few figures into some math classes will amount much compared to how much some parents force into their kids minds.

But, then again, if it is presented too forcefully then it would indeed be a form of brainwashing instead of real-life based math equations.

Jae Onasi
06-19-2007, 11:28 PM
Well, more teachers are liberal than conservative, and the NEA is a quite liberal organization, so it's not surprising that we'd be seeing a more liberal bias among teachers. That being said, I don't think elementary and secondary education should be politicized at all, though obviously you're going to see some politics in say, history or Civics/government classes.

It's a teacher's job to teach a given subject or grade level, not to recruit kids to a political party.

Nancy Allen``
06-20-2007, 08:17 AM
In my experiance it was left wing political viewpoints that were always pressed, but I'm sure right wing teachers would be just as guilty of doing this. Regardless of their opinion their job is to teach maths so teach maths, their wards don't need to hear about why the war is wrong, why Islam is evil or whatever bug's up their ass at that particular time.

Windu Chi
06-20-2007, 08:49 AM
However, it's okay to teach people left wing ideology?
Left wing ideology!
What the hell is that? :)



Seriously Math class doesn't need to be politicized.
How the hell do people politicized Mathematics in classes?

Mathematics is about: quantifying, analysing structure; through algebra, measurement of space and shapes; through geometry and the change of motion and the motions of physical objects in the universe; through calculus.
It is understood through the use of abstraction of ideas through the imagination and logical reasoning, from counting, calculation, the observance of patterns in abstract structures, the relationships in abstract structures and the use of abstract structures to comprehend complex structures, in the universe. :)

mimartin
06-20-2007, 11:27 AM
Pressing any political viewpoint in elementary or intermediate schools is wrong. This is a time for learning so that the student can make their own educated decisions in the future and not a time to be misled to the right or left.

There is nothing wrong with someone leaning to the left or the right of the political spectrum, but it should be because the persons own personal conviction make them that way and not because they were taught that way. A good teacher can have a powerful role in a young child’s development into adulthood and with that power come the responsibility to teach the ability that allows the student to make their own informed decisions and not have the teacher make them for him/her 10-20 years earlier.

Once in high school the politics will seep into the classroom from literature, history, current event and science. Then in my opinion the teacher’s job is to be more of a moderator to the discussion and not allow the more prevalent side to walkover the minority. The teacher’s input into the discussion should be mind provoking and come from both sides of the political spectrum. To me a teacher and parents job is to prepare the student to solve problems in the real world and not just to program their own beliefs into that child.

I was lucky most of my teachers that did not put their political views into the classroom. College was a different story, but then it was teacher pushing us to the right. The reason they were to the right was my degrees are in accounting/finance.

Left wing ideology!
What the hell is that? :)

It is the same thing as the liberal elite. It is made up words or phases used in an attempt to disparage people that do not agree with the political views of those on the right.

JediMaster12
06-20-2007, 12:24 PM
Left wing ideology!
Left winf has often been associated with liberalism. Right wing is more associated with the conservative ciew of things.

I don't know if this is relevant but I am under the impression that kids are more observant and perceptive than we give them credit for. I suppose it doesn't count but growing up, my parents treated me like a mini adult, no baby talk, the same for my brother. There were times when my mom would explain something and he would go away and think about it and then come back and ask a question.
While it may be evident, there are some things in the stories kids read that imply certain themes, some that may have a political basis. It would imply that the authors are clever with their word usage and the like. Yeah I know that the kinder stories teach them sounds and the like but if you at stuff for the upper grades, then...
Also there are some teachers who interoduce the concept of current events. They ask the kids to bring in a current event and ask them to explain it in their own words and what they think it means. Personally I think kids nowadays are getting gipped in their education.

TK-8252
06-20-2007, 01:04 PM
Usually it is a liberal viewpoint that gets pushed by teachers. This is just due to the tendancy of educated people to be liberal as opposed to conservative.

I would agree that political indoctrination of students in elementary and middle schools is not ethical... however, at high school level, I think it's not so bad. Most all students in high school have no interest in politics, so maybe being introduced to some politics would be a good thing for them and for America.

What we need next is a thread discussing the ethics of sending children to church and indoctrinating them there to a certain religion and the conservative politics that go along with it. Why is it right to force religion and conservatism on kids in church, but any politics in school are unacceptable?

Pavlos
06-20-2007, 01:26 PM
Most all students in high school have no interest in politics, so maybe being introduced to some politics would be a good thing for them and for America.

You'd be surprised, almost everyone I know has a political view but then again, I do go to a grammar school - maybe that makes a difference.

People should have the right to decide what they will. I'm certainly not where I am on the political compass because anyone in school told me to be there (or at least, I don't think I am) and to be perfectly honest, I think post people aged 15 and upwards can make their own decisions and see the fallacies/truths in any argument the teacher gives. But then again, the truly excellent teachers will never betray their political alignment, especially not if they're dealing with such politics-centric subjects as History, Religious Studies, or Bioethics - to name a few.

John Galt
06-20-2007, 01:30 PM
It all goes back to the hallowed American tradition of teaching our children WHAT to think, not HOW to think. If you ask me, the entire education system needs to be scrapped and rebuilt from the ground up. Case in point: The US is generally at the head of the pack in Elementary-level educatin, but is pretty far down the list for middle/high school compared to Europe.

TK-8252
06-20-2007, 01:34 PM
You'd be surprised, almost everyone I know has a political view but then again, I do go to a grammar school - maybe that makes a difference.

Sure they all have their views on the issues and the most well-known candidates (like Hillary and Obama), but if a high school student is really educated in current events and modern politics, that's another thing. How many students know that much about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and how much it causes anti-Americanism? How many students know about the Gonzales scandal? The issue over GITMO? Earmarks in Congress? And so on.

Pavlos
06-20-2007, 02:45 PM
How many students know that much about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and how much it causes anti-Americanism? How many students know about the Gonzales scandal? The issue over GITMO? Earmarks in Congress? And so on.

I'm from the UK so US domestic issues generally don't reach us here :). But as for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, any person who studies GCSE History under OCR will have studied it and written two essays on it to count as 25% of their overall mark. I get the impression that the political system is... simpler here than in the USA (a bill is proposed, the commons debate, the commons vote, the lords debate, the lords vote and then it's passed backwards and forwards for days on end unless the commons force the Parliament Act on the lords and overrule them - of course in Mr. Blair's parliament has consisted of the media debating policy before parliament :p - this is, obviously, a somewhat simplified version but perhaps it goes some way to explaining why the people I know are far more politically minded than the people you are referring to).

Wow... that was a long bracketed clause.

SilentScope001
06-20-2007, 02:57 PM
Mandate that at the begining of every class, the teacher states his political bias up front and admits that it is the responsiblity of the student to do indepedent research on the topic and not rely SOLEY on his word.

There. Once that happens, I'll be fine with whatever left-wing and right-wing bias peopel throw at each other.

mimartin
06-20-2007, 03:42 PM
How many students know that much about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and how much it causes anti-Americanism? How many students know about the Gonzales scandal? The issue over GITMO? Earmarks in Congress? And so on.

The real question is how many voting age American's know about the Gonzales scandal, GITMO, or earmarks in Congress? For that matter how many even know even know who their Congress person is?

mur'phon
06-20-2007, 03:44 PM
What we need next is a thread discussing the ethics of sending children to church and indoctrinating them there to a certain religion and the conservative politics that go along with it. Why is it right to force religion and conservatism on kids in church, but any politics in school are unacceptable?

Indeed we do (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=179664)

HerbieZ
06-20-2007, 04:53 PM
I for one don't think it's good. It should'nt be pressed because it should be an option instead. Years ago i learnt about all that left wing and right wing stuff and i purposly ignored it. Ignorance? Possibly. But for me it's the same as not reading the news for a week. All those massive problems in the world seem to disappear and the world for me becomes a much more cushty place to live in. I think if i was forced to learn politics in school, id be insane right now. You only have to look at how many doors this thread has opened already to see how many will open if it gets taught in schools.

GarfieldJL
06-20-2007, 06:12 PM
Mandate that at the begining of every class, the teacher states his political bias up front and admits that it is the responsiblity of the student to do indepedent research on the topic and not rely SOLEY on his word.


That wouldn't make any difference because we're not talking high schoolers or college students. Even then there are colleges where professors grade people based on whether or not they agree with the Professor's political stance.

When I was in elementry-high school I wasn't taught what to think, I taught how to think for myself. I don't mind the idea of trying to make classes more interesting, but there are ways to do that without pressing ideologies on them.

This isn't a problem in only American Public Schools, this happens in public schools all over the world. More extreme examples of pressing ideologies could be found in the Middle East.

There are conservative teachers out there, but not many simply because it is hard for a conservative to get a degree in Education when they don't have the same ideology of the Professors.

There are games out there like Number Munchers which to a young kid would be rather fun, it teaches math, and there is no political agenda being incorporated.


Has anyone besides Fox News reported on this on television? I have been a little busy recently to check the other News Corps television airings.

True_Avery
06-20-2007, 06:18 PM
Has anyone besides Fox News reported on this on television? I have been a little busy recently to check the other News Corps television airings.
OK, just stop it for the last time. You seem to find -some- way in any thread to bring up new stations, especially Fox News. We get it. You watch Fox. Everytime an article or event is talked about in the world we don't need to hear about how much a station has reported it. But maybe I'm the only one getting irritated about this.

What if this education system was taught differently though? Not a political bias up front, but with actual facts in schools outside of history class? I'd explain it again, but I already attempted my best shot on my first post.

GarfieldJL
06-20-2007, 06:32 PM
OK, just stop it for the last time. You seem to find -some- way in any thread to bring up new stations, especially Fox News. We get it. You watch Fox. Everytime an article or event is talked about in the world we don't need to hear about how much a station has reported it. But maybe I'm the only one getting irritated about this.


I was asking an honest question, this is a very important topic. I'm wondering if anyone else heard about this from another media source, because if not then to me it's scary.

Reasoning:
As was pointed out in either this topic or the one concerning religious schools, the Nazis used something similar to brainwash children as well. Many dictatorships do similar things to ensure children are loyal to them. Hamas does things like this so kids want to grow up to be suicide bombers. Young children are easily impressionable, as pointed out by Canderous in KotOR 1.

While literature would be a lot harder to find stuff without some leaning one way or the other, things like Math there is absolutely no excuse for something like this.

ET Warrior
06-21-2007, 01:56 AM
I was asking an honest question, this is a very important topic. I'm wondering if anyone else heard about this from another media source, because if not then to me it's scary.If you're honestly that curious then read other news.

And I don't even know what I'd be looking for in the news. Should I be checking CNN daily to see if they're covering the scholastic movement to socialism and the impending doom therein?

Totenkopf
06-21-2007, 06:13 AM
Seems a lot of liberals fall into education (course of least academic resistance, apparently :xp: ). Reminds me of the expression....People who can't do, teach, and people who can't teach, teach teachers. Chances are that many conservatives end up in more lucrative fields like engineering, law, medicine and business. That's not to say that there are NO good teachers out there, just that a lot of the intellectual deadwood tended to end up in easier programs like education. Crazy libs...:xp: :p

@ET--perhaps do a net search on political bias in the classroom. Some people in schools have gone sooo apesh*t over Gore's global melting flick that they're forcing kids to watch it outside of classes like science or current events.

ChAiNz.2da
06-21-2007, 06:27 AM
Chances are that many conservatives end up in more lucrative fields like engineering, law, medicine and business. That's not to say that there are NO good teachers out there, just that a lot of the intellectual deadwood tended to end up in easier programs like education. Crazy libs...
Hey! I'm in Engineering.. you've besmirched my pristine name with 'Conservative' good sir :xp: hehehe... ;)

If you're honestly that curious then read other news.
QFT.

Indeed. You've got to explore other, non-partisan, sources. While I read CNN (http://www.cnn.com/), I can't deny that it's Liberal overtones (and far too much Paris Hilton coverage :rolleyes: ) are not that hard to cipher. I'd suggest Associated Press (http://www.ap.org/BreakingNews/index.html) & BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/) to get some other views on world events. It definitely balances out my opinions on what's "really" going on around the world.. ;)

Totenkopf
06-21-2007, 06:48 AM
Hey! I'm in Engineering.. you've besmirched my pristine name with 'Conservative' good sir :xp: hehehe... ;)

My apologies :rolleyes: :p You must be that odd lib whose actually trying to make an "honest living". :xp:



Indeed. You've got to explore other, non-partisan, sources. While I read CNN (http://www.cnn.com/), I can't deny that it's Liberal overtones (and far too much Paris Hilton coverage :rolleyes: ) are not that hard to cipher. I'd suggest Associated Press (http://www.ap.org/BreakingNews/index.html) & BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/) to get some other views on world events. It definitely balances out my opinions on what's "really" going on around the world.. ;)

Actually, Associated Press and BBC have liberal overtones. Still, nothing wrong w/checking many sources to get a more complete picture. Don't feel too bad, though, FOX got caught up in the bimbo storylines (Paris, ANS) like the rest of them. I do believe this is the age of infotainment. :(

ChAiNz.2da
06-21-2007, 06:57 AM
My apologies. You must be that odd lib whose actually trying to make an "honest living". LOL! :lol:

Actually, Associated Press and BBC have liberal overtones. Still, nothing wrong w/checking many sources to get a more complete picture.
Really? I honestly couldn't tell, perhaps they're better in covering it up.. hehehe..

I would definitely welcome some other, preferably neutral, sources if anyone can provide them. I'm always reading the news and I'd enjoy getting a viewpoint that doesn't have a lobbying group attached to their pocket :)

True_Avery
06-21-2007, 07:08 AM
I would definitely welcome some other, preferably neutral, sources if anyone can provide them. I'm always reading the news and I'd enjoy getting a viewpoint that doesn't have a lobbying group attached to their pocket :)
I can't think of anybody but both Daily Show and Colbert Report. Sounds stupid, but they are both commentaries mocking both sides and some of the liberals for comedy. I don't trust them as a news source, but seeing the same news all day on different news channels mocked is satisfying at times. Although, I will admit, they tend to mock the right-wing (particularly Fox News) more than the left-wing, but I still watch it for amusement and the chance to see a more lighthearted view of current day media.

But as far as -real- media goes, I am yet to personally find a neutral news source.

ET Warrior
06-21-2007, 08:43 AM
Chances are that many conservatives end up in more lucrative fields like engineering,
Funny, I just got my degree from an engineering college and I'd say well over 80% of the people I knew there were rather liberal in nature.

Pavlos
06-21-2007, 12:31 PM
While literature would be a lot harder to find stuff without some leaning one way or the other, things like Math there is absolutely no excuse for something like this.

I'm not entirely sure how mathematics has, or could have, been politicised in the USA. Care to enlighten me? :)

GarfieldJL
06-21-2007, 02:06 PM
I'm not entirely sure how mathematics has, or could have, been politicised in the USA. Care to enlighten me? :)


Read the links in the first post of the topic...


Anyways, to comment on the BBC, to be blunt they are extremely left wing and some could even say anti-semetic. The Israelis have called the BBC the english version of Al-Jazeerez.

However, my question on the other media outlets is a perfectly reasonable question. This situation believe it or not is news, extremely important news. The Paris Hilton thing, as Bill O'Reilly summed up, basically wasn't important in his mind, the thing that was important was her being sent home because she was having a panic attack... A double standard situation where someone is getting special treatment in the justice system like what Paris was important.

Totenkopf
06-21-2007, 03:06 PM
@ET--perhaps you're one of those few, like ChAiNz, that're looking to make an honest buck :xp: :p

Still, that 80 % of the people you knew were libs only means that......80% of the peeps you knew were libs. ;)

ChAiNz.2da
06-22-2007, 03:34 PM
@GarfieldJL & Pavlos

I merged your posts with the other thread. Sorry it took me awhile.. had to find the other thread you were talking about :lol:

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=179354&page=2&pp=40

Corinthian
06-25-2007, 01:14 AM
Ideally, it wouldn't be done, but given the liberal control of nearly all levels of school, especially college, it's sort of ingrained. How do you stop it? I don't know that you can. Combine this with the near-total control of the newspapers and television, and frankly, there's only two ways you can teach a viewpoint other than the Democrat Party Line to your kids. Private Schooling, or Homeschooling. There are obvious problems with both of those: Private schooling is extremely expensive, and homeschooling is highly difficult, given that you've got a parent juggling teaching the kid, running the house, and possibly even holding a job on his or her own.

GarfieldJL
06-25-2007, 03:43 PM
Well some schools have recently come under fire being shown on the National News cause they've done some really outrageous things. Particularly Boulder, Colorado comes to mind.

ET Warrior
06-25-2007, 03:50 PM
Well some schools have recently come under fire being shown on the National News cause they've done some really outrageous things. Particularly Boulder, Colorado comes to mind.
Care to expand on that statement any? I'm rather curious what Boulder schools have done that has brought them 'under fire'.

I suppose I'm mostly curious because I live in Boulder, and haven't heard of any particularly outrageous goings ons as of recent.

Still, that 80 % of the people you knew were libs only means that......80% of the peeps you knew were libs.And your assertion that many conservatives end up in Engineering means that...you're making a random generalization that doesn't really seem to be true.

GarfieldJL
06-25-2007, 04:13 PM
Most Ridiculous Item

Time now for "The Most Ridiculous Item of the Day." Well, it took almost three months but Boulder, Colorado High School Principal Bud Jenkins has finally apologized for the drug and sex panel at the school, where students were encouraged to use illegal drugs and have indiscriminate sex.

You may remember, we had to chase Jenkins around, and he still wouldn't explain the situation. But now he says the assembly was a violation of educational standards.

We'll have reaction from Boulder students tomorrow, but the entire thing remains ridiculous.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,284914,00.html

Btw, he also aired the tape of what he was talking about. I'm also aware that some students demanded O'Reilly give an apology for making an issue out of it. Personally I think O'Reilly was in the right, and yes I did hear the tape. I'm also well aware that the local media in Boulder tried to cover it up and blame Bill O'Reilly. Though Rocky Mountain News reported the story, apparently the Denver Post did not.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going to encourage you to have sex, and I'm going to encourage you to use drugs appropriately.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's the thing they don't tell you about condoms. If you're lucky enough to get them on, and you still stay hard, it's hard to stay hard. And it doesn't feel as good.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you want to get marijuana in the city of Los Angeles, all you've got to do is go to a doctor who will write you a script. You go to a club.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's very natural for young people to experiment with same-sex relationships. Even today, there are psychiatrists who will do sessions under the influence of ecstasy. If I had some, maybe I'd do it with somebody.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, what is healthy sexual behavior? I don't care if it's with men and men, women and women, men and women. Whatever combination you would like to put together.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you're thirteen, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, probably one of the most appropriate sexual behaviors would be masturbation. Masturbate! Please masturbate!

(END VIDEO CLIP)


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,282334,00.html

That's the transcript from talking points, I'm going to see if I can dig up the actual tape.


But here's more stuff from same talking points article:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Many of the panelists remarks clearly encourage children to have sexual relations.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The panel didn't attack one way of thinking, nor one way of action. It simply presented thoughts for students to tuck away for use later in life.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I found the discussion to be one of the most enlightened I've ever heard.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Private education is not an option for our family. We are forced to utilize the public school system. I feel that not only were my children's rights violated, but so were mine.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On April 10th, a wonderful thing happened at Boulder High. Then something terrible happened. A group of hysterical, unreasonable and un-American adults decided to spoil it.

Led by Bill O'Reilly, who's well practiced at using fear and hate to find villains, even when there might not be any.

(END VIDEO CLIP)



Sorry but I listened to the tape and it was hardly enlightened, there was only one viewpoint shown, it wasn't remotely a debate.


So this is what I'm referring to in Boulder, Colorado

Another talking points after Bill got more information to identify people in the tape.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,277005,00.html


Some other news agencies, well not sure how good they are but with local media trying to cover up stuff.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55866

And Finally Rocky Mountain News
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5539466,00.html

ET Warrior
06-25-2007, 04:28 PM
So a high school allowed people who weren't faculty to come in and express a viewpoint to high schoolers (who at this point in their lives should be at the age where they can start making informed decisions about how they want to live their lives) and it is somehow a scandal?

I had a group of people come to my high school back in the day and preach to me about how abstinence is the only way to live my life and sex outside of marriage was basically going to kill me. I had to go, why wasn't O'Reilly there all up in arms about this ridiculous viewpoint that I was having forced upon me?

GarfieldJL
06-25-2007, 04:42 PM
So a high school allowed people who weren't faculty to come in and express a viewpoint to high schoolers (who at this point in their lives should be at the age where they can start making informed decisions about how they want to live their lives) and it is somehow a scandal?

I had a group of people come to my high school back in the day and preach to me about how abstinence is the only way to live my life and sex outside of marriage was basically going to kill me. I had to go, why wasn't O'Reilly there all up in arms about this ridiculous viewpoint that I was having forced upon me?


ET, how old are you? How long ago has it been since you were in high school? Were you in a public or private school? Additionally, I don't think that's what they actually said when you were in High School. Fact is indiscriminate unprotected sex is very dangerous, you could get an STD for goodness sakes like AIDs for instance. So I'm not sure that what you're saying those people said when you were in High School, is what they actually said. Cause there was a similar speech when I was in high school in Indiana, only it was about the fact that you could contract an STD with indiscriminate sex, and that abstinence was the only way that you basically had a 0% chance of contracting an STD which is actually the truth. Fact is you can get an STD even if you use protection.

Top that off, if there is the issue that maybe the girl will get pregnent, sorry but as a guy I think it is irresponsible to have sex with a woman if you aren't prepared for the possibility pregnancy occuring. Seriously, I don't believe abortion is ethical, but I also believe having sex with a woman and getting her pregnent and you aren't ready for the consequences and the responsibility it would take to raise a child is also unethical because you're putting the woman in a pretty bad position.

So I didn't find that little talk when I was in highschool about abstinence being a ridiculous viewpoint, I found it to be common sense.

Totenkopf
06-25-2007, 05:00 PM
And your assertion that many conservatives end up in Engineering means that...you're making a random generalization that doesn't really seem to be true.

Problem w/your statement is that I never QUANTIFIED any number, whereas you attempted to fallaciously suggest that the # of engineering students were predominantly liberal, based merely on you own limited experience. Nice try.

ET Warrior
06-25-2007, 07:46 PM
ET, how old are you? How long ago has it been since you were in high school? Were you in a public or private school? Additionally, I don't think that's what they actually said when you were in High School. It was a public school, and it was ~7 years ago. And you don't think what is what they actually said? That abstinence is the only way to live your life? That premarital sex makes you a rotten person? Because that is what they said. I would know, as I was there. Nobody raised hell, and nobody got up in arms because I was having this extremely conservative viewpoint forced upon me.

Fact is indiscriminate unprotected sex is very dangerous,Fact is a lot of things are very dangerous. Driving is particularly dangerous, as 36% of all teen deaths are vehicle related. source (http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/teenmvh.htm). Yet, I don't see any people complaining about the fact that they teach drivers ed in high school, which is CLEARLY encouraging teenagers to start driving cars.

So I didn't find that little talk when I was in highschool about abstinence being a ridiculous viewpoint, I found it to be common sense.Well of COURSE you didn't think it was ridiculous, because it's the same viewpoint that you yourself have. But not everyone has the same views as you, and if you're going to complain about some views being expressed then it is hypocritical to not complain about all of them.

GarfieldJL
06-25-2007, 08:21 PM
However depending on where you live driving is a necessary skill in order for you to have a job. The city bus doesn't go out to where I live for instance.

Totenkopf
06-25-2007, 09:13 PM
Well of COURSE you didn't think it was ridiculous, because it's the same viewpoint that you yourself have. But not everyone has the same views as you, and if you're going to complain about some views being expressed then it is hypocritical to not complain about all of them.

I don't know whether this statement is merely poorly consructed or just poorly thought out. It's not hypocritical to not complain about some views and not others. However, I would agree that it would be hypocritical to say that nonone can complain about YOUR views, but that you can complain about theirs. The hypocrisy would be in squelching others from lodging similiar complaints.

ET Warrior
06-25-2007, 09:15 PM
You are correct, it was very poorly worded.

I shall attempt to rephrase.

It is hypocritical to cry foul at a liberal viewpoint being presented to high school students while applauding a conservative viewpoint being presented to same students.

lukeiamyourdad
06-26-2007, 11:05 AM
Anyways, to comment on the BBC, to be blunt they are extremely left wing and some could even say anti-semetic. The Israelis have called the BBC the english version of Al-Jazeerez.

Yeah sure...leftists are anti-semites. And the Israelis and the B'nai Brith thinks everyone is an anti-semite. Saying that a jewish man killed another man is anti-semitic for them...

There are conservative teachers out there, but not many simply because it is hard for a conservative to get a degree in Education when they don't have the same ideology of the Professors.

I told myself I shouldn't reply to this, but I have to say, I love crazy plot theories.

Seriously though, I know that many teachers do grade based on ideological stance. However, there is nothing stopping a student from ''lying on his stance''. He could try to act more ''liberal'' and get good grades, get out of college and forget what he wrote. It could also teach him a thing or two about another point of view, something he might need.

JediMaster12
06-26-2007, 12:25 PM
It is hypocritical to cry foul at a liberal viewpoint being presented to high school students while applauding a conservative viewpoint being presented to same students.
I couldn't have said it better. I find it abhorent that both sides of the same story aren't presented with equal consideration. It's like teaching everything from America's point of view of contact with a foreign nation without looking at the other side.

GarfieldJL
06-26-2007, 04:38 PM
Yeah sure...leftists are anti-semites. And the Israelis and the B'nai Brith thinks everyone is an anti-semite. Saying that a jewish man killed another man is anti-semitic for them...


So you're saying that them jumping up and down claiming that Israel deliberately targetted ambulances in the Israeli/Lebanon War of 2006 when it wasn't true isn't being anti-semitic? Seriously spreading lies about Israel trying to paint them to be monsters when they aren't is in my view anti-semitic.


I told myself I shouldn't reply to this, but I have to say, I love crazy plot theories.


Excuse me but I do my own research, and I found out about the group Fox News was talking about by finding their own website. I read through what was there and reached my own conclusion, I hardly believe that to be a crazy plot theory.


Seriously though, I know that many teachers do grade based on ideological stance. However, there is nothing stopping a student from ''lying on his stance''. He could try to act more ''liberal'' and get good grades, get out of college and forget what he wrote. It could also teach him a thing or two about another point of view, something he might need.

I'm well aware of that, but you're saying that student should then have to lie about themselves and their viewpoints just to make the grade. Sorry but in my view someone's political stance shouldn't be a factor in someone's grade, and if a conservative was a teacher and did that there would be an outcry for the conservative to be fired. So if a teacher grades on the basis of whether or not the student is liberal or conservative it is my view that teacher should be fired cause he or she has absolutely no business teaching.

TK-8252
06-26-2007, 04:47 PM
So you're saying that them jumping up and down claiming that Israel deliberately targetted ambulances in the Israeli/Lebanon War of 2006 when it wasn't true isn't being anti-semitic? Seriously spreading lies about Israel trying to paint them to be monsters when they aren't is in my view anti-semitic.

First of all, you need to learn that there is a HUGE difference between being anti-Jew and being anti-Israel. Not that I'm saying the BBC is anti-Israel.

Israel is not a representation of all Jews. Some of the very strictly religious Jews say that Israel is not even supposed to exist right now, according to Jewish scripture. But let's not get into all that.

I'm not sure that the BBC ever said that Israel INTENTIONALLY targetted ambulances. Maybe they did, but if so, it makes little difference. Considering that the Israelis were basically just demolishing the entire capital of Lebanon, they were bound to hit a lot of things like... ambulances and hospitals, which they DID HIT. They even hit a UN outpost, remember?

GarfieldJL
06-26-2007, 04:56 PM
I'm not sure that the BBC ever said that Israel INTENTIONALLY targetted ambulances. Maybe they did, but if so, it makes little difference. Considering that the Israelis were basically just demolishing the entire capital of Lebanon, they were bound to hit a lot of things like... ambulances and hospitals, which they DID HIT. They even hit a UN outpost, remember?

Actually I posted an article somewhere around here commenting about how the BBC did something to that effect. While I'm aware Israel hit a UN outpost, are you aware that Hezbollah was operating in and around that outpost and was firing rockets into Israel from that position.

SilentScope001
06-26-2007, 05:09 PM
And this debate over Israel and Lebanon is PROOF why we shouldn't press political viewpoints on kids in school. Do we really want our classrooms to turn into a flame war argument with the teachers and students screaming?

GarfieldJL
06-26-2007, 05:19 PM
And this debate over Israel and Lebanon is PROOF why we shouldn't press political viewpoints on kids in school. Do we really want our classrooms to turn into a flame war argument with the teachers and students screaming?


Last I looked TK-8252 and I were not flaming each other...

SilentScope001
06-26-2007, 05:43 PM
I was speaking generally, not specifically. I know right now, it is being handled well, but I have seen similar debates, in the meatspace, get pretty ugly. More importantly, it does become quite hard to do a history lesson when every single "fact" becomes highly contested.

Nancy Allen``
06-26-2007, 06:31 PM
And this debate over Israel and Lebanon is PROOF why we shouldn't press political viewpoints on kids in school. Do we really want our classrooms to turn into a flame war argument with the teachers and students screaming?

lol, exactly.

On Israel, last year I ran a poll on whether or not the Jews should be wiped out to point out the unjustified bigotry and hatred that is expressed towards Israel and the Jews, whether it be anger over them being given land or going further and denying the Holocaust, which to me excuses the actions that took place (and to some extent opposition to Israel's right to existence excuses the terrorist attacks against their country, making them seem more legitimate). With that said however the poll was partially motivated by news coverage backing up news coverage backing up news coverage of Israel targeting civillians in Lebanon. Now whether this was true or simply a tragic case of attacks missing their target the end result really did play into the hands of Hezbollah and those who oppose Israel. It's very much a terrorist philosophy of hiding in a church or mosque, even if they are killed they achieve the larger goal of providing bad publicity, in this case bombing a holy place to get at them. The same as Hezbollah hiding in Lebanon to escape Israeli forces, or at least make them look bad if they did come after them.

It is hypocritical to cry foul at a liberal viewpoint being presented to high school students while applauding a conservative viewpoint being presented to same students.


Would it also be hypocritical to cry foul over a conservative standpoint being presented while at the same time applauding a liberal one? I ask as I see this sort of thing happen all the time, from both sides.

GarfieldJL
06-26-2007, 06:40 PM
To add to what Nancy said a lot of the media coverage was later proven to be using bogus material, some stuff that I could have done a better job in 15 minutes or less. Many media outlets didn't even apologize for it either.

lukeiamyourdad
06-26-2007, 07:06 PM
So you're saying that them jumping up and down claiming that Israel deliberately targetted ambulances in the Israeli/Lebanon War of 2006 when it wasn't true isn't being anti-semitic? Seriously spreading lies about Israel trying to paint them to be monsters when they aren't is in my view anti-semitic.


TK answered it already, but I'd like to add that flinging around the word anti-semitic doesn't help anyone.

I'm sure you're well aware of the exaggerations regarding political correctness. Using the antisemitism argument against any detractors of the actions of the Israeli government or against any bad comment against a person of the Jewish faith, when it has nothing racist about it, is one such exaggerations that must be avoided. Groups like the B'nai Brith, supposed to defend Jewish interests and communities in various regions of the world, has become a group that enforces political correctness. Just a few weeks ago, a caricature involving a well known Québec politician portrayed as a Hassidic jew, because he went to meet the Jewish community in Montréal instead of staying in Québec City and solving the budgetary problem, had the B'nai Brith sending letters of reprimands against the newspaper. Yet, there was nothing antisemitic about it.

http://veloptimum.net/velonouvelles/7/ART/6juin/P18.html

Excuse me but I do my own research, and I found out about the group Fox News was talking about by finding their own website. I read through what was there and reached my own conclusion, I hardly believe that to be a crazy plot theory.

Sure man. Keep believing.


I'm well aware of that, but you're saying that student should then have to lie about themselves and their viewpoints just to make the grade. Sorry but in my view someone's political stance shouldn't be a factor in someone's grade, and if a conservative was a teacher and did that there would be an outcry for the conservative to be fired. So if a teacher grades on the basis of whether or not the student is liberal or conservative it is my view that teacher should be fired cause he or she has absolutely no business teaching.

Ideally, no one should have to lie, but it's inevitable. You cannot judge if someone has rated with a bias, simply because generally speaking, the difference is minimal and amounts to more simply more scrutiny by the teacher. As such, firing someone because of a bias is an extremely difficult thing to do. A teacher failing a student because of ideological differences is a rare thing.

In fact, most evaluations in college, depending on your subject, is subjective. It isn't like math, where only one answer is the good one. So there is certainly an inevitable bias. Most try to be as objective as possible, but they're still humans.

I'm not certain you've been to college or else, you would know this.

Nancy Allen``
06-26-2007, 07:18 PM
At least it's not Shin Bet, we'd never have heard from the newspaper's editor again otherwise.

Totenkopf
06-26-2007, 07:43 PM
They even hit a UN outpost, remember?

Wasn't aware that was a sacrosanct position. Wouldn't be enough for me to avoid the possibility of collateral damage. If it's too hot.....get the hell out of the kitchen.

Ideally, no one should have to lie, but it's inevitable. You cannot judge if someone has rated with a bias, simply because generally speaking, the difference is minimal and amounts to more simply more scrutiny by the teacher. As such, firing someone because of a bias is an extremely difficult thing to do. A teacher failing a student because of ideological differences is a rare thing.

In fact, most evaluations in college, depending on your subject, is subjective. It isn't like math, where only one answer is the good one. So there is certainly an inevitable bias. Most try to be as objective as possible, but they're still humans.

I'm not certain you've been to college or else, you would know this.

:rolleyes: You go right on believing this as well. Seriously, it might be difficult to PROVE such bias as the motivation for a POOR grade (not outright failure), but to state as unequiocably as you do that such instance are rare (in uni no less) reflects your own credulity on this issue (fact is we DONT KNOW the actual rate of occurrence). Besides, GJL is quite right that one shouldn't have to hide their politics or pov when getting a degree in education (or any of the other soft sciences like polysci/psych/soc/etc). The staff at any GOOD school should be equally adept at understanding the basis of BOTH sides of an issue and grade accordingly to how the person has made his case under either paradigm.

lukeiamyourdad
06-27-2007, 12:55 AM
:rolleyes: You go right on believing this as well. Seriously, it might be difficult to PROVE such bias as the motivation for a POOR grade (not outright failure), but to state as unequiocably as you do that such instance are rare (in uni no less) reflects your own credulity on this issue (fact is we DONT KNOW the actual rate of occurrence). Besides, GJL is quite right that one shouldn't have to hide their politics or pov when getting a degree in education (or any of the other soft sciences like polysci/psych/soc/etc). The staff at any GOOD school should be equally adept at understanding the basis of BOTH sides of an issue and grade accordingly to how the person has made his case under either paradigm.

Indeed we don't know. However, I know that there are different resources at your disposition, if you believe a teacher has been unfair to you. You can actually make your case and argument it. I think I badly worded my paragraph. I'm saying that instances where a teacher fails a student because of ideological differences are rare because if it was common practice, people would seriously talk more about it. "Rare" was specific to failing.

Poorer grades, I admit, I have been victim off, though with no serious proof, other then those who had a slightly more centrist view if not right wing one had poorer grades in a class with a ultra-feminist communist teacher. Correlation was present, but again, it's quite difficult to prove anything. And that's even though she rammed into anyone that expressed an opinion different then hers during class...

Note that I am not condoning such a thing. I find it regrettable and ideally, the staff should be able to be fully unbiased. Unfortunately, it's not possible.


Wasn't aware that was a sacrosanct position. Wouldn't be enough for me to avoid the possibility of collateral damage. If it's too hot.....get the hell out of the kitchen.

Although the logical thing to do is to leave (hey, those people do care about their lives), leaving would make people point fingers at how the UN always "quits". Seems you can't satisfy everyone eh?

Totenkopf
06-27-2007, 02:13 AM
Indeed we don't know. However, I know that there are different resources at your disposition, if you believe a teacher has been unfair to you. You can actually make your case and argument it. I think I badly worded my paragraph. I'm saying that instances where a teacher fails a student because of ideological differences are rare because if it was common practice, people would seriously talk more about it. "Rare" was specific to failing.

Poorer grades, I admit, I have been victim off, though with no serious proof, other then those who had a slightly more centrist view if not right wing one had poorer grades in a class with a ultra-feminist communist teacher. Correlation was present, but again, it's quite difficult to prove anything. And that's even though she rammed into anyone that expressed an opinion different then hers during class...

Note that I am not condoning such a thing. I find it regrettable and ideally, the staff should be able to be fully unbiased. Unfortunately, it's not possible.

Yes, I agree with much of what you're saying here (also why I delineated between fail/poor). Frankly, I'm reasonably sure that one can guess that it IS indeed rare b/c few people contest their grades on this basis (or at least are known to do so). But it's precisely b/c there is no paper trail to make it a clear cut case AND, I suspect, b/c most students aren't confident enough or worked up enough to go that route. I don't find any fault in your other observation b/c corruption/incompetence is pervasive.


Although the logical thing to do is to leave (hey, those people do care about their lives), leaving would make people point fingers at how the UN always "quits". Seems you can't satisfy everyone eh?

Well, as military peope, they know that they are in a bad position. The IDF is not going to ignore enemies b/c they are in proximity to UN positions. But as to the UN, it might as well NOT put military forces anywhere it's incapable of using them as anything other than ineffectual observers. Easy way to end up with a bunch of corpses. He who sets out to satisfy everyone, ends up satifying no one, especially themselves. That's VERY true.

John Galt
06-27-2007, 02:13 AM
I've always thought that schoolchildren should be taught to view problems and situations objectively, teaching them HOW to think, and not WHAT to think. In my opinion reason should be the cornerstone of the education system, and students should be told to take everything they are told with a grain of salt, so to speak.

Naturally, this will never happen because it would potentially result in the general public becoming generally more logical and discerning, which is decidedly not what lawyers, politicians, and most religious leaders want us to be. They want sheep, and pressing opinions on children, indoctrinating them early and well, is a very good way to turn people into obedient members of the left/right wing voting blocs. As long as there are strong conservatives and liberals (not that there are very many true conservatives left) in teaching positions and other stations of power in which they could influence the minds of large numbers of children, political indoctrination will remain the norm.