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The Doctor
06-30-2007, 12:35 AM
Moderator note to everyone: This is a subject that can stray into the wrong area very quickly. This thread is subject to the forum rules, and posting porn or obscene images can result in a permanent ban. This is a warning to everyone posting in this thread: Do not link to porn sites or images--that _will_ earn you a ban. Do not post links to sites that are more mature than 'rated PG-13/rated T'. Please be very careful in your wording so we don't stray into obscene/vulgar discussions. Thanks for keeping this an interesting and 'clean' discussion. --Jae

Something I've been thinking a lot about lately. The morality of it, I mean, not visualising it. Wise-guy. :P

What are your views and believes on 'teh pr0nz'? Is it morally acceptable, or simply degrading? Should it be allowed to run so rampant online, or should it be monitored and controlled better than it is now?

I'll admit, there have been times where I have been drawn to these kinds of sites. I'm not proud of it, but it's happened. I can't deny that. I think the same could be said for most of the other men on these boards. Face it, guys, we can't deny it. We've all been there at some point in our lives.

But now that I'm older, my views and opinions of the subject have changed. Mostly because I've entered my first 'serious' relationship, and I've actually had... let's just say 'more experience with sexuality'. I used to see nothing wrong with it. Now, however, I believe that it's just plain silly. I have re-visited some sites with my girlfriend (don't ask, please. Whatever you're thinking, you're probably wrong), and I just couldn't see how it could have ever done anything for me. It's just so... fake. I mean, no girl is ever really that vocal, unless she's got a camera in her... let's go with face. The entire act is so forced and cheesy that it's laughable.

Any of you other guys found this to be true as they became more mature?

ET Warrior
06-30-2007, 04:09 AM
Bah. Porn is entertainment as much as any other medium. As I have noted in other threads I've participated in I am no stranger to 'experience with sexuality' nor am I a stranger to serious relationships. I would say the only thing that has changed about my attitude towards porn is I've actually matured enough to the point where it's not embarrassing.

I still watch porn, and am not ashamed to admit it. Some people don't watch porn, and that's ok too.

I also find it somewhat offensive that you appear to be addressing this thread only towards men. Do women not watch porn? While I suppose it's a lower percentage of women than men I've certainly known plenty of women who like porn.

Jae Onasi
06-30-2007, 04:18 AM
I think it's an industry that uses and abuses women (primarily) and men for the debased entertainment of others.

How many little girls say "I want to be a porn star when I grow up!"? None--we have an innate understanding that having sex for the entertainment of others is wrong. It's only by desensitizing ourselves on a regular basis to this that we can somehow justify it as 'OK'.

ET Warrior
06-30-2007, 05:40 AM
My keenly honed senses somehow knew we would disagree completely on this subject, Jae :p

I think it's an industry that uses and abuses women (primarily) and men for the debased entertainment of others.By paying them large sums of money to do a job? They are forced into this job just as much as I am forced into mine. I chose my line of work, I do my job, and I get paid. They chose their line of work, they do their job, and they get paid. Probably a lot more than I do, and they probably enjoy it just about the same.

How many little girls say "I want to be a porn star when I grow up!"? And how many little girls say "I want to be a computer programmer when I grow up!"? Just because it's not number one on little children's job choices doesn't make it an invalid career path. I'll bet you won't find too many kids eagerly awaiting their dream job of holding up the "slow" signs near road construction.

we have an innate understanding that having sex for the entertainment of others is wrong.No, we have a socially instilled notion that even if it was our ideal job in life people will look down upon us for it even if they watch it.

The main problem is again that this society places far too much emphasis on sex. Who's having it, why are they having it, HOW are they having it. It's fine and dandy if two people are having sex because they're in love, but oh dear me if they're having sex for money then this is cause for concern, and quite obviously something is wrong with the parties involved.

Totenkopf
06-30-2007, 05:52 AM
Bah. Porn is entertainment as much as any other medium. As I have noted in other threads I've participated in I am no stranger to 'experience with sexuality' nor am I a stranger to serious relationships. I would say the only thing that has changed about my attitude towards porn is I've actually matured enough to the point where it's not embarrassing.

I still watch porn, and am not ashamed to admit it. Some people don't watch porn, and that's ok too.

I also find it somewhat offensive that you appear to be addressing this thread only towards men. Do women not watch porn? While I suppose it's a lower percentage of women than men I've certainly known plenty of women who like porn.

Frankly, it's kind of funny that you should be offended that "you appear to be addressing this thread only toward men". I'd say mildly amused would be a much better reaction. From what I've read, >1/2 of rented porn can be attributed to women. So, it's a good bet that in our overly sexualised culture that a substantial amount of the consumers (forget about particiapancy in its creation) of this "genre" are indeed women. I do suspect, though, that you project your preoccupation with porn on the rest of society due to your view that some people don't watch porn, and that's ok too. Those of us who fall into your "minority" appreciate your understanding. :xp:

@Jae--I think that that "hesitancy" to embrace porn as acceptable is being eroded by pop culture and the general permissiveness that pervades life at the university level. The fact is that you can walk into book stores and look at a magazine rack and see just how much "soft porn" is readily available to the consumer outside of a plastic wrapper. Or the book section under sexuality or even the photography section and find books aimed at producing the material in a professional manner. Hell, much porn now is often produced by women, for women . Western culture as a whole has become very eroticized, more so in Europe than even here. A "benefit" of our societies becoming more secularized in the last century. The predililiction toward porn, for OR against, is basically guided or instilled by the people who run society at large. In that, I'd say ET is quite correct. In a more permissive culture, you'd eventually find little (what age are you talking here, though) girls who might actually think becoming a porn star is someting to aspire to in the end.

ET Warrior
06-30-2007, 06:06 AM
Damn you Tot, you are always pointing out my poor wording. One of these days I'll learn to not post when I'm tired or in a rush. Or I won't, and you'll keep pointing it out. Who knows.

I actually intended to say I find it somewhat amusing...not offensive. I've no cause to be offended.

I also think you're reading too much into my statement about it being ok to not watch porn. I was merely saying that it's ok to watch porn, and it's ok to not watch porn. It's like hockey. Some people like it and some people don't. It's all a matter of personal preference.

Totenkopf
06-30-2007, 06:23 AM
Nah, I think it's just the way you phrase it that seems to earn my "ire". ;) FTR, if you don't write it, I won't point it out. :p We are often on the diametrically opposite side of arguments, but I'm only responding to what's there. When not in the forest, I don't concern myself with the sound of falling trees. ;)

Actually, I was only suggesting that perhaps the ratio of people NOT watching porn to those that do is weighted more in favor of the former. The rest was just my usual cheekiness. Hope that clears things up for you. Btw, when I saw how close our replies were, I sort of expected to be hearing from you before I signed out. :p

i_shot_the_jedi
06-30-2007, 06:45 AM
I consider pornography akin to a practice such as smoking - I really don't mind if you do it; but don't wave it in my face. Yet sometimes that is the problem: sex is everywhere in this modern day. On late night TV, jumping up as internet ads, wearing lacey underwear on a billboard... I miss the days when it was less public and all a bit more scandalous.

On the other hand, freedom of sexuality is an important defining part of Western culture; and as a citizen of a country that puts liberty on a pedestal I recognise that we can't just keep the things we like about freedom then sweep the rest under the carpet.

Pho3nix
06-30-2007, 08:24 AM
Finally an issue which I can participate in! :p
I agree with Et Warriors' first post. It is indeed ok to watch porn, and ok not to watch porn.

Let's remember the whole porn industry started in the 60's (or bloomed I should say) and in my understanding it was just one step towards a more open, and less tabooed society. Sexuality was basically unheard of 60 years ago or so. I think we've come a long way with researchers like Kinsey and in a way recognition of the gay society in the 21st century.

Porn is just a way to break free from the norm and taboo's of our society. That's also why I think everything has become 'over-sexualized', there's more and more sex on the TV, in Ads etc. Personally I like it this way, otherwise sex is just something that children think is a taboo and "wrong". Just my $0.02.

JediKnight707
06-30-2007, 10:23 AM
Not to sound like a broken record, but I agree with ET. Yes, I watch porn, and while I don't go around bragging about it, I'm not going to deny it. Should we control porn? I don't think so. In fact, I think it'd get even more out of hand if you tried to control it. If you were to ban all porn, then people would just watch more and more of it, if only to simply break the law.

Do I feel bad for women that are porn stars? No, because I think that they have a good time at the office. In all seriousness, though, I really don't feel bad. If you don't being a porn star than take all the money you earn, go to college, get a degree and become something you like.

Is it fake and outrageous? Yes. But it sells and it certainly works, or else no girl would ever fake it when they have a camera stuck in their face. So, you may say how stupid and fake it is, but it's been going on since the 60's and their aren't any complaints from the guys. ;)

Dagobahn Eagle
06-30-2007, 04:18 PM
There is a bit of exploitation in the porn industry, and there are quite a bit of people who regret their performance later. This is especially true of teen girls and boys who upload pics or movies of themselves to the Web. You never know when you watch porn whether or not the 'artist' you're watching deeply regrets what she did.

Other than that, I find no logical arguments.

Nancy Allen``
06-30-2007, 06:59 PM
A friend of mine in Australia is talking about the current crisis they are facing where alcohol and pornography are rife and it leads to child abuse including sexual assault, one three year old girl was drowned as she was anally raped that's how bad the situation got. They're bringing in measures to have it banned.

As for my feelings on it, I'm sure the people involved would have diffirent feelings, personalities, ect. It is degrading to women no question, from women having to do it for money to pimps and their hookers to the videos, but there are several aspects of it that I would address rather than the issue itself. One would be how rampent pornography and sexuality has become. From web sites using any search term to have you click on their site which leads to the material to porn or blatently sexual advertising just about everywhere it's something that needs to be seriously toned down. Ditto for sexualising video game characters, comic characters, ect. Lara Croft for example, she could be such a positive role model but everyone is only looking at marketing her to fulfil the sex fantasies of the male population. The second issue with pornography would be the seedier aspects of it. I've seen sites that offer material that is illegal, things such as rape videos or child models. And this would tie in with things such as the sex slave trade, or that poor girl who was kidnapped, I always thought she would be doing the horizontal folk dance with her kidnapper but with it coming out that she was a specific order for the abduction it has me thinking along those lines more, that she was taken to be used in child sex films and then killed. And there's no telling how much of a line there is between the legitimate and the criminal. The third issue comes down to conning perverts out of their money. Shonky products, paying a woman who's lousy, using your credit card only to find your funds have been cleaned out. Actually I find nothing wrong with that, people will get out of it when they lose enough money.

Now my last word, which I know will be a little off but I hope it will make people think about their attitudes on the subject. Pornography I feel is for those who will never get to be with a real woman.

Pho3nix
06-30-2007, 08:02 PM
Pornography I feel is for those who will never get to be with a real woman.

Pornography is just one form of masturbation, which is completely normal. It doesn't have anything to do with not being able (or lacking the social skills) to have intercourse in real life.

mimartin
06-30-2007, 10:16 PM
Have no real problem with it provide everyone involved is of age and have given legal consented. As long as no one is force to do it or view it I do not see the problem.

I do have a problem with the shows that go into bars and other places where young women have been consuming alcohol and then persuade these liquored up young women to show their bodies. Someone making that type of decision should not be impaired in anyway when giving written consent.

John Galt
07-01-2007, 12:29 AM
It's a legitimate form of business as far as I'm concerned. Like all businesses they have to conform to certain guidelines, to prevent exploitation(which happens to some degree in ANY industry), and they should be expected to advertise in order to promote their products. There is a demand for a product(pornography), and they are the supply.

Just another facet of market economics.

Jae Onasi
07-01-2007, 01:43 AM
This is hardly an innocuous activity. It contributes to sexual abuse, child sexual abuse, drug abuse, STDs, unwanted pregnancies, and illegal trafficking of women and children (with a few men sprinkled in). It's linked to increased numbers of sex crimes including against children. Twenty percent of porn involves children. Yeah, it's a great industry. Everyone should support an industry that has these effects on society. :roleyess:

This is tremendously difficult to research, not because there's not enough information out there, but because it's so easy to inadvertently click on a porn link. Bear with me if it takes awhile to respond because of that.

Who are the victims of pornography?
Boys and girls that have lost their innocence by viewing pornography at an early age.
Wives of men preoccupied with pornography and the sex industry.
Women who are being treated with disrespect and sexually abused.
Young women trapped in an industry that exploits them and uses them as mere sex objects.
Children used for the sexual satisfaction of fathers, stepfathers, and men they trusted.
Young men exposed to a false image of sexuality.
Men who just can't stop using pornography or stimulating themselves while recalling those images.
A society that has become desensitized and dependent upon sex-charged images.
Neighbors that have increased crime and decreased property values because of the proliferation of pornography in their communities.

Some articles and links to articles (http://www.victimsofpornography.org/Articles%20in%20The%20News/Articles%20in%20the%20News.htm) about the profoundly negative effects of porn

Science behind porn addiction (http://commerce.senate.gov/hearings/witnesslist.cfm?id=1343) (video) and text version here (http://commerce.senate.gov/hearings/testimony.cfm?id=1343&wit_id=3912)

Porn is not just 'harmless fun' (http://www.enough.org/objects/justharmlessfun.pdf)

Effects of child porn from National center for missing and exploited children (http://www.missingkids.com/missingkids/servlet/PageServlet?LanguageCountry=en_US&PageId=1504)

role of pornography among child molesters (http://www.missingkids.com/en_US/publications/NC70.pdf)

There is a PBS Frontline episode on porn. If you want the link, PM me, it includes graphic images and I can't post it here.

For those with a more scientific bent, Surgeon General's Workshop on Pornography and public health (http://profiles.nlm.nih.gov/NN/B/C/K/H/_/nnbckh.pdf)
Porn obviously isn't good for a variety of public health reasons

more information on negative effects, including increasing numbers of sexual crimes and porn's ties to organized crime (http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/porno.html)

Porn's effects on kids (http://www.protectkids.com/effects/harms.htm)

Porn's effect on how women are viewed (http://www.protectkids.com/effects/centerfold.htm)

article--Internet Porn: Worse than Crack? (http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2004/11/65772)

(thanks to stingerhs for Wired and Focus on the Family links)

Well, I'm just worn out from a long week of visitors (which I enjoyed for the most part), so I'm going to leave what I have now for you all to look at.

Moderator note: Everyone who has posted here needs to read the moderator note in the first post. Please make sure your posts stay within the confines of the forum rules.

igyman
07-01-2007, 02:45 PM
I also find it somewhat offensive that you appear to be addressing this thread only towards men. Do women not watch porn? While I suppose it's a lower percentage of women than men I've certainly known plenty of women who like porn.
Ditto, and here's an interesting fact for y'all - believe it or not, porn can be watched for other purposes than pleasuring yourself. A typical example is a friend of mine from college. She watches porn together with her boyfriend to, believe it or not, pick up a few things. Yep, they watch it so they can try out various poses and techniques, as silly as it may sound.

This is hardly an innocuous activity. It contributes to sexual abuse, child sexual abuse, drug abuse, STDs, unwanted pregnancies, and illegal trafficking of women and children (with a few men sprinkled in). It's linked to increased numbers of sex crimes including against children. Twenty percent of porn involves children.
Very true and very horrible. And though I won't feel bad in the least for the women who chose to be pornstars (it was their choice, for whatever reasons they decided to make it and they do it willingly), I will think all the worst about the people who force other people into having sex, especially those who force children to do so, and I will think even less of the people who find that kind of ''material'' arousing.

ET Warrior
07-01-2007, 03:23 PM
This is hardly an innocuous activity. It contributes to sexual abuse, child sexual abuse, drug abuse, STDs, unwanted pregnancies, and illegal trafficking of women and children (with a few men sprinkled in).As near as I can tell, all of the research that supports these ideas is every bit as convincing as the research that supports the ideas that violent media will make people violent. It's a problem of believing that correlation implies causation. It seems far more reasonable to me to say that people who are prone to commit sexual abuse, child sexual abuse, drug abuse, etc. would have been regardless of their pornographic film intake through their lives. I have watched porn pretty regularly for quite some time now, and I haven't been feeling any desire to start trafficking in women and children.

Twenty percent of porn involves children.Nobody here is supporting child porn, and nobody is supporting anyone being forced into it.

Who are the victims of pornography?I'm going to replace the word pornography with football as an experiment...
Boys and girls that have lost their innocence by viewing football at an early age.Doesn't necessarily make sense...but I don't think it made much sense with the word pornography. What does that even mean, "Lost their innocence"? They could just as easily stumble in on mom and dad some evening, which I think would be FAR more disturbing for them.
Wives of men preoccupied with football and sports in general.Self explanatory, quite fitting I'd say.
Women who are being treated with disrespect and sexually abused.I know in Colorado the days with the most reported domestic violence is when the Broncos lose.
Young women trapped in an industry that exploits them and uses them as mere sex objects.Cheerleaders. Poor, poor cheerleaders.
Children used for the athletic satisfaction of fathers, stepfathers, and men they trusted.Some kids are forced to play football against their will just for the approval of their fathers.
Young men exposed to a false image of masculinityFootball gives young men false aspirations of what their lives will be like when they grow up.
Men who just can't stop watching or talking about football.I've known quite a few.
A society that has become desensitized and dependent upon these testosterone fueled events.Again, no explanation needed.
Neighbors that have increased crime and decreased property values because of the proliferation of football in their communities.That one didn't really make sense with the word pornography in there either, since there are a lot of men who have plenty of pornography and that usually doesn't have much of an effect on the resale value of the home.

So should we be rallying against the proliferation of football and football related images in society?

Jae Onasi
07-01-2007, 04:30 PM
What the heck does football have to do with porn? Porn is not a sport, and football does not cause the social ills that porn does. The two cannot be remotely equated, and your word substitution is entirely irrelevant.

Property/resale values go down in communities with higher crime rates. Proliferation of porn is linked to an increase in sexual crimes and organized crime activity in communities that have adult book stores or easy access to porn.

How would you suggest we conduct the research on porn, then? Willingly putting people into harm's way is completely unethical. If you've ruled out all other causes of a correlation for a crime or negative activity and all that's left is porn as a cause, then you have a solid correlation.

The fact remains that by buying or renting porn, you are supporting an industry that has a tremendous negative impact on society as a whole and for those specifically involved in filming porn (since they're at higher risk for STDs, and those in sex torture/snuff films are tortured or killed), and I would hypothesize negative effects on your views of women as sex objects given your stated level of activity. You can attempt to justify it all you want, but it is still wrong.

ET Warrior
07-01-2007, 05:13 PM
What the heck does football have to do with porn? Porn is not a sport, and football does not cause the social ills that porn does. The two cannot be remotely equated, and your word substitution is entirely irrelevant.You have a knack for dismissing analogies out of hand. Football and porn aren't really related, but I was able to show that football appears to have all of the same victimizing problems as you attributed to porn, so why is it that porn is the one causing all of our social ills?
Proliferation of porn is linked to an increase in sexual crimes and organized crime activity in communities that have adult book stores or easy access to porn.Again, is it not likely that porn is common among the people committing sexual crimes because these people also happen to enjoy pornography? Just because people who commit those crimes enjoy porn does not equate to people who enjoy porn will commit those crimes.

And the reason you see porn shops and the like in communities that have high crime rates is basically because of people such as yourself have such a fiercely negative outlook on anything porn related those shops are forced into the areas where crime was already a problem.
If you've ruled out all other causes of a correlation for a crime or negative activity and all that's left is porn as a cause, then you have a solid correlation.Again, correlation does not equate to causation.
has a tremendous negative impact on society as a whole and for those specifically involved in filming porn (since they're at higher risk for STDs, and those in sex torture/snuff films are tortured or killed)While they may be at higher risk, they are there because they have chosen to be there. They have accepted the inherent risks, just as athletes accept the fact that they are at higher risk of being permanently injured, or doctors are at higher risk of being exposed to contagious disease. Also, the majority of people who work in the porn industry are very careful about STDs, they are required to be tested at least every six months, and they know if they do catch an STD they will be out of work for the amount of time it takes to cure it.

As far as the torture/snuff films, I'm not even going to respond. It should be quite obvious that nobody here is actually supporting illegal porn.
I would hypothesize negative effects on your views of women as sex objects given your stated level of activity. You can attempt to justify it all you want, but it is still wrong.Just because you refuse to accept the idea that someone can be promiscuous without thinking of their partners as objects doesn't make it so.

Totenkopf
07-01-2007, 06:02 PM
No offense, ET, but why not substitute handguns for football. Just like porn, guns are NOT inherently anything. If used promiscuously, though, the damage can be telling. I do agree with you, however, that a lot of the problem tends to lie with the inviduals more than the objects. Just like some people can use porn in a "non-threatening" way (see Igy's example), so can they use guns in a non threatening way (deterent to all but the most agressive). Same is true of smoking or many other human activities. However, perhaps we could regulate porn users by making them register for their materials like you would a handgun....then at least we could be somewhat sure of who is legally consuming the stuff and thus, theoretically at least, not a threat to society. Sure, people will complain.....but even the 1st amendment isn't absolute. Just think of it as .....doing it for the children. Liberals love that line. :p

TK-8252
07-01-2007, 07:02 PM
Man, stop saying that porn is degrading to women. I think that my job is degrading! I have a job at a grocery store, and part of that job includes cleaning toilets and collecting trash. This is as nasty as it gets, my friend. You do not know what "bad" smells like until you've done my job.

I think that a lot of people have jobs that to some degree are degrading, some more than others. Why is it that only porn is seen as degrading? Or is it okay for a man's job to be degrading, but if a woman's job is considered degrading, that's not okay?

mimartin
07-01-2007, 07:07 PM
Who are the victims of pornography?

Boys and girls that have lost their innocence by viewing pornography at an early age.

Isnít that more of a parenting issue than a porn issue. Why are the boys and girls viewing porn? Is it because their parents donít care enough to be involved in their childrenís lives to supervise them properly? The internet makes this a daunting task for the parents, but there are safeguards that parents can implement to prevent access that way. I also believe there are laws already making it illegal to sell or show underage children porn. Maybe we could just enforce the rules already on the books.

Wives of men preoccupied with pornography and the sex industry.

Wasnít a very good marriage in the first place in pictures of strangers on the internet, magazines or DVD can become more important to him then the intimacy shared between him and someone he was suppose to love. She is better off knowing this sooner rather than later. Either find him help or get to know whom ever she is going to marry better next time before she makes the same mistake again.

Women who are being treated with disrespect and sexually abused.

Again there are laws on the book today that make this kind of behavior unlawful. As a society we need to do a better job of enforcing our own rules and laws. This behavior should not be tolerated period.

People have used a lot more than porn to justify their disrespect of women. People have used holy books to justify the treatment of women, should we ban those too?

Young women trapped in an industry that exploits them and uses them as mere sex objects.

With my personal feelings this one is hard for me to take the other side. I was raised by a single mother that did not even have a high school education. She would have done anything to support and care for me, but she never forgot her morals and principles. In the US at least these woman have a choice. Take the easy way for the quick dollar or work two jobs like my mother did. They are not force at gun point into the industry and if they are then I know there are laws against that.

I really believe the law in the US should be changed and performers in the adult industry should be at least 21 years of age. I do not believe that would be constitutional, but it does make sense to me. The fact that you can not drink in a bar, but you can have sex on camera makes no sense.

Children used for the sexual satisfaction of fathers, stepfathers, and men they trusted.

What does this have to do with porn? Does it mean men get aroused viewing porn and seek out children for satisfaction? No matter what youíve been told men donít need porn or any other external stimulate to get excited.

If a father, stepfather, or any other person seeks sexual satisfaction from a child it is because they are SICK. The porn, alcohol or bad day is just an excuse to justify their perverted illness.

Young men exposed to a false image of sexuality.

I was once a young man and I can tell you from personal experience young men are going to have a false image of sexuality with or without porn. My experience was without porn and my image was pretty false.

Maybe we should ban love stories and soap operas too, as the give many young woman a false image of love and sexuality with their knight in shinning armor stories.

Men who just can't stop using pornography or stimulating themselves while recalling those images.

Again they have a serious illness and needs medical assistance. If they did not have porn then they would be at the local beach, pool or mall doing the same thing. I rather they stayed home and do it in privacy or a least where I donít have to see it.

A society that has become desensitized and dependent upon sex-charged images.

True, but we are also a society that has become desensitized and dependent upon violet-charged images. Sex sells and if it didnít we would not be having this debate. Until we stop demeaning men and women in main stream television, movies and advertising why should we ban porn?

Neighbors that have increased crime and decreased property values because of the proliferation of pornography in their communities.

Another one I agree with. Texas has rules that keep business in the adult industry out of neighborhoods and away from schools, day cares, and churches. It has already been tested and held up as constitutional in the Supreme Court. Communities should be allowed to set their own standards, but what one does legally in their own bedroom is none of the governments business.


and those in sex torture/snuff films are tortured or killed
Arenít these illegal in the US? How is my buying a US made DVD supporting someone that made an illegal snuff film? That is like saying by giving my tide to the church Iím supporting radical Islam.


but it is still wrong.
And IMO you are right. Many people donít have your high morals and standards, and that does not make them wrong, just different. It has already been proven that we can not legislate morality. Even if it was banned porn tomorrow the industry would only go under ground. It easier to control and supervise the way it is now and at least communities are collecting taxes from it, so some good is coming out of it.

Fredi
07-01-2007, 07:12 PM
Man, stop saying that porn is degrading to women. I think that my job is degrading! I have a job at a grocery store, and part of that job includes cleaning toilets and collecting trash. This is as nasty as it gets, my friend. You do not know what "bad" smells like until you've done my job.

I think that a lot of people have jobs that to some degree are degrading, some more than others. Why is it that only porn is seen as degrading? Or is it okay for a man's job to be degrading, but if a woman's job is considered degrading, that's not okay?

I am with you man.... I clean toilets where I work and I just hate when people donít flush the toilet and leave submarines and Porn is just essential ... Porn help in a sexual relation. You know positions and other stuff for that. And the models they are not obligated they have decided to become porn models. I think porn is just something that helps and it is a economy that will never stop.

Jae Onasi
07-01-2007, 07:19 PM
I've cleaned toilets, wiped people's bottoms in the hospital, changed dirty diapers, and cleaned up puke, among many other things. That's hardly degrading. People who are in the hospital need care when they are critically ill and can't do it for themselves, and cleaning a public toilet means you're showing concern for the public health safety of other patrons.

@ The Padawan--there's absolutely nothing wrong with my sex life and we've never used porn. It's completely non-essential.

Totenkopf
07-01-2007, 07:28 PM
I think that my job is degrading! I have a job at a grocery store, and part of that job includes cleaning toilets and collecting trash. This is as nasty as it gets, my friend. You do not know what "bad" smells like until you've done my job.


Actually, I've a pretty good idea, as do many people, b/c I've smelled what gets left behind in some of those bathrooms before you guys ever get around to cleaning them :xp:

Balderdash
07-01-2007, 08:08 PM
I tend to believe that the overwhelming majority of people who enjoy porn don't suffer from the experience themselves, and don't abuse anyone (as a result of watching or participating, or otherwise).

Clearly in some ways it's not a completely healthy habit, and it's definitely not good to obsess about, but that doesn't make it immoral. And I don't see why people who enjoy porn (or even find it useful for their own sex lives as others have pointed out) should fall foul of censorship just because of idiots that do associate the industry with unethical and unlawful practises.

To bring yet another analogy to the table; it's almost like saying that guns should be completely banned because they're sometimes used in murders. The difference is, gun laws really are a matter of life and death; and guns themselves are really the crux of the issue and not scapegoat or a taboo.

JediKnight707
07-01-2007, 09:07 PM
I've got to agree with the men here, and maybe the reason I agree with them is because I'm a man. Regardless, I think that what ET and others were saying is true. To say that porn is degrading to women is a matter of opinion, and its one I disagree with. Its not degrading, no matter how the girl is treated. Is it degrading when the woman is chained up? IMO, no. She had a choice in that matter and if she didn't want to do it, she didn't have to. So, to call it degrading would be saying that she makes a wrong choice, and that is merely a matter of opinion. Would I ever watch a woman get choked or strap herself in latex? No, because I don't find that sexually arousing. But, there are some out there that do, and they can watch it all they want.

As for the child pornography issue, I agree. I think that kiddie porn is absolutely disgusting and that anyone who participates in it should rot in Hell. But, I doubt that anyone here is a pedophile, so to discuss this issue is moot. Talk to the people that watch that kind of trash, not us.

I think that a lot of people have jobs that to some degree are degrading, some more than others. Why is it that only porn is seen as degrading? Or is it okay for a man's job to be degrading, but if a woman's job is considered degrading, that's not okay?

Amen. This is a double standard, but as a man, I think its a neccesary double standard. Women today see things from a different perspective, and by that I mean that they belive that if something that women don't participate in, or aren't as active in, its the man's fault for not allowing women to participate or something to that general nature. All power to women and all, but there are somethings that (not to sound to cliche here) are better left to men.

/off topic

Totenkopf
07-02-2007, 01:34 AM
Given that men and women do a lot of the same kind of "degrading" jobs, I'm not sure that's relevant. As Jae pointed out, she cleaned toilets too. Females also do a lot of the nursing type jobs that put them into contact with a lot of disgusting smells and other "byproducts". I think it's the whole "image" thing that gets them upset. Let's face it, a lot of guys tend to see women as pieces of meat and porn has a way of ingraining that instinct before (if ever w/some guys) it's straightened out. It doesn't help women as a group, though, that other women are often very willing participants in the creation of porn--from softcore like Playboy up to the hardcore variety. It has become commoditized in modern society, so the best solution is probably to regulate it's creation and distribution (perhaps more stringently that currently), outlawing the snuff films, child porn, bestial and other warped varieties. Basically much of what is being done currently. We may not be able to put an end to it, but can make it less readily available, or at least openly so.

Maybe we should ban love stories and soap operas too, as the give many young woman a false image of love and sexuality with their knight in shinning armor stories.

Touche`. :p

Fredi
07-02-2007, 01:47 AM
I need to say it... I love porn for real!!:D And I am not degrading woman!

PoiuyWired
07-02-2007, 04:33 AM
Pornstars are entertainers starring in various media. Well yes, the main purpose of their performance is to get people aroused, but that does not mean it is a degrading thing.

Sure there are more abusive pron out there(slong with some really obscure stuff), but that is to satisify some people's fetish. Remember, Fetish is not wrong, as long as it is done between two consentual adults, without killing themselves. While I really don't enjoy some of the activities shown in some pronz, I respect that some people might enjoy those.

porngraphy itself is, just like any sex toys and what not, an aid to sexual activities, even if that is often times a sexual activity for one.