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GarfieldJL
07-01-2007, 11:03 PM
No I'm not referring to girls being discriminated against, I'm referring to boys being discriminated against. Classes are being tailored in a way that hurts boys, while catering to most girls' strengths. While there are some teachers and schools out there trying to help boys catch up, I imagine they'll soon be facing lawsuits from the feminist movement.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10965522/site/newsweek/

Totenkopf
07-02-2007, 12:05 AM
Perhaps this is a good reason to keep the sexes seperated during the school day. Fewer distractions and more flexibility for the teacher in crafting teaching strategies that play to each gender's strengths and weaknesses, rather than taking a one size fits all bureaucratic track. Besides, it's not like the kids won't socialize after school hours anyway.

True_Avery
07-02-2007, 12:33 AM
Agreed. Why don't we have gender seperate schools? Or at least Gender Seperate classes? Although, personally, I don't know what I would do if I had been given the option to go to an all girls school oposed to a mixed. The majority, if not all, my friends in school were guys. But, all in all, I think I would have taken the offer and just hanged out with the tomboys. And if it was a school with an ok uniform, even better.

I was in a special education class in middle school for kids who had trouble learning. It was me, 4 or 5 other girls, and then 40 boys. Does that tell you anything?

The two gender's learn differently I have found. Not saying that one gender is slower than the other, but they just learn differently because they are wired differently. Some of the smartest people I have met have been male, but at the same time the majority of people I saw failing classes happened to be the guys. Girls were always top of class at my schools, and the guys were always below in the failing area.

Not sure if this is the fault of the education system, parents, or society though. Most likely a mix of all, because years and years ago it was the girls that had the problem so it may not actually be genetics or how the brain works, but how the world views the genders as a whole. The girls in my classes understood that to get ahead in life, you have to be smart so they worked their pretty little butts off. But the guys... the majority of guys I saw failing classes assumed that they could get away with living off of sports, doing something physical, or something else not involving an education. Most just saw education as unimportant. I believe that to be a failure of society and parents, not gender.

PoiuyWired
07-02-2007, 04:20 AM
To be fair, girls do develop faster, and it is more obvious at the younger age. So there is a difference. Well, at least there is a difference up til half way thru high school mostly.

But actually this might not be too big of a problem, depending on how you organize the classes. I have found that groups of mixed gender kids do work well together, and the different thinking patterns does help both gender in terms of problem solving and such.

In short, yes there is a difference. But things can be done to benefit from such differences, and in general it seems that co-ed school is still better.

GarfieldJL
07-02-2007, 10:17 AM
To be fair, girls do develop faster, and it is more obvious at the younger age. So there is a difference. Well, at least there is a difference up til half way thru high school mostly.

But actually this might not be too big of a problem, depending on how you organize the classes. I have found that groups of mixed gender kids do work well together, and the different thinking patterns does help both gender in terms of problem solving and such.

In short, yes there is a difference. But things can be done to benefit from such differences, and in general it seems that co-ed school is still better.


Guys develop slower in some areas, this is true, however learning disabilities are being over diagnosed now, because classes are catering to the learning styles of girls. The loss of recess, being stuck in a seat all day, girls can handle it better than guys can. Seperating genders probably won't help, because either one gender or the other will end up with access to better learning materials, probably the girls will get the more up to date learning materials.

When this issue was first brought up, the feminist movement cried foul, saying it's just girls are now able to show their potential and people are sexist to say the classrooms are catering to girls.

JediMaster12
07-02-2007, 12:39 PM
Whenever I see threads like these I feel like the oddball out. In my high school experience and in lower grades the guys were pretty good and top of the class. The exception was in elementary school with a kid who did have trouble learning but I was paired with him and helped. Needless to say, he did a lot better in school and did good in high school as far as I know. Maybe I'm on of the lucky ones or it could be that I grew up tomboyish and understand a bit guy mentality. It also helps that I spent time with my cousins who came over to play frequently.

The sad thing is that both sides are right. Yeah we see the difference now that girls are doing better in the school system but they are still prejudiced against. Women make 8 cents on the dollar, big improvement from the 6 but still we are not being paid equally for the same time and job skill. The education system at least here in California is lousy. It sucks. The nonsense that is required makes is easy for students to fail, especially bilingual students. It's no wonder that California is ranked 50 in the education realm out of the US. We have problems from all sides, the bureaucracy, the factions, everybody. Unfortunately whatever changes we make is bound to tick someone off.

GarfieldJL
07-02-2007, 01:20 PM
Whenever I see threads like these I feel like the oddball out. In my high school experience and in lower grades the guys were pretty good and top of the class. The exception was in elementary school with a kid who did have trouble learning but I was paired with him and helped. Needless to say, he did a lot better in school and did good in high school as far as I know. Maybe I'm on of the lucky ones or it could be that I grew up tomboyish and understand a bit guy mentality. It also helps that I spent time with my cousins who came over to play frequently.

How long has it been since high school for you JediMaster, also I did say there were exceptions. Back when I was in Elementry we had 3 recesses, now kids are lucky to have one.


The sad thing is that both sides are right. Yeah we see the difference now that girls are doing better in the school system but they are still prejudiced against. Women make 8 cents on the dollar, big improvement from the 6 but still we are not being paid equally for the same time and job skill. The education system at least here in California is lousy. It sucks. The nonsense that is required makes is easy for students to fail, especially bilingual students. It's no wonder that California is ranked 50 in the education realm out of the US. We have problems from all sides, the bureaucracy, the factions, everybody. Unfortunately whatever changes we make is bound to tick someone off.


Well if the schools are catering to girls and now being set up in a way that is actually setting boys up to fail then it is discriminatory towards boys. The situation of women in the workplace, believe it or not there are laws against discriminating via paychecks just not many women report it. I have heard of cases recently where the opposite occurs though.

JediMaster12
07-02-2007, 03:42 PM
Actually Garfield I meant that system was designed for all students to fail. I have seen it happen with kids, especially those that come from the low income areas. It is a sad thing and I wonder how we can make it right.

How long has it been since high school for you JediMaster, also I did say there were exceptions. Back when I was in Elementry we had 3 recesses, now kids are lucky to have one.
About five years actually since I graduated and yet I have come back every so often to see the changes. I'm not saying that I am out of touch. I see it every time I visit my mother's classroom. She teaches kinder.

mimartin
07-02-2007, 05:15 PM
however learning disabilities are being over diagnosed now, because classes are catering to the learning styles of girls. The loss of recess, being stuck in a seat all day, girls can handle it better than guys can. Seperating genders probably won't help, because either one gender or the other will end up with access to better learning materials, probably the girls will get the more up to date learning materials.

So you are saying that it wrong to cater to one or the other, then what is your solution or do you just want to go back to the old system that caters only to males? We are a very adaptive species and I believe we will cope with this little problem. Males need to get use to it anyways as more and more jobs demand being stuck in a seat all day looking at a computer monitor. Consider this job training. All my cousins gripe about being stuck in class all day and then summer rolls around and they are still stuck inside all day playing video games.

The education system is flawed in the US and needs a complete overhaul. We are suppose to be teaching our children to cope and solve problems, but all we seem to be doing is testing them and giving them crutches to use as excuses for their future failures. Failure is a part of life and should be celebrated as a learning experience. Sometimes we learn more from our failures than our triumphs.

Iím not for separating the genders or home school (there is nothing wrong with home schooling and it should be every parents right to choose what is in the best interest of their child) I just believe social interaction is just as important to a persons development as history, language, math or anything else taught at school.

Back when I was in Elementry we had 3 recesses, now kids are lucky to have one.

Back when we rode dinosaurs to school we only got one recess and then only if we didnít talk during class or smart off to the teacher. Most days I did not get any recess. Have you every had to spend an hour with you nose pressed into a circle on a black board? Iím still allergic to chalk. Ah, wasted youth.

GarfieldJL
07-02-2007, 05:47 PM
Oh please, this isn't about adapting this is about throwing kids into situations that they aren't ready for. An analogy would be tossing someone off a boat without a life preserver.


Also you want to make something of the fact I had three recesses when I was in elementry. Face it little kids need to have recess, so they aren't stuck in a chair all day.

mimartin
07-02-2007, 06:07 PM
Oh please, this isn't about adapting this is about throwing kids into situations that they aren't ready for. An analogy would be tossing someone off a boat without a life preserver.

Which is exactly what we did to little girls till 1972, I just want to know your plan to make it equitable to both genders.

I always thought life was about throwing myself into new experiences that I may not ready for. I happen to believe in testing myself whenever possible.

By the way that is how I was taught to swim only it wasnít a boat but a pier.

Also you want to make something of the fact I had three recesses when I was in elementry. Face it little kids need to have recess, so they aren't stuck in a chair all day.

I wasnít making anything out of it. I would have loved 3 recesses when I was in school. All I was saying is that it was not always the case. We only had one, but we also had PE and music class to distract our young minds.

Darth InSidious
07-02-2007, 06:08 PM
The best example of the problem in Britain is the preponderance of coursework. Generally, girls work on it over the six months or however long they have to do it steadily. By comparison, boys tend to do it all in a huge rush at the last minute. Who is going to do better?

Totenkopf
07-02-2007, 06:48 PM
The sad thing is that both sides are right. Yeah we see the difference now that girls are doing better in the school system but they are still prejudiced against. Women make 8 cents on the dollar, big improvement from the 6 but still we are not being paid equally for the same time and job skill.

You DID mean 80 and 60 cents respectively? Otherwise, there'd be no reason to hire men for just about anything, let alone outsource to other countries. ;)

GarfieldJL
07-02-2007, 07:08 PM
Which is exactly what we did to little girls till 1972, I just want to know your plan to make it equitable to both genders.


I will acknowledge the education system was discriminatory towards girls until the late 1960s. However that doesn't excuse discriminating against boys.


I always thought life was about throwing myself into new experiences that I may not ready for. I happen to believe in testing myself whenever possible.


There is a difference between new experiences and setting someone up to fail.


By the way that is how I was taught to swim only it wasnít a boat but a pier.


I imagine someone was there to help you if you started to drown.


I wasnít making anything out of it. I would have loved 3 recesses when I was in school. All I was saying is that it was not always the case. We only had one, but we also had PE and music class to distract our young minds.

Oh I'm sorry I didn't mention those, I had 3 recesses, Music, Art, and PE in elementry. Little kids need to be able to move around, boys learn by doing, not sitting there filling out worksheets.

True_Avery
07-02-2007, 07:35 PM
The system is not discriminatory to anybody. Everybody has the chance for equal pass and equal fail, but it is their choice to fail which falls back on the parents and society as a whole.

So you are saying that it wrong to cater to one or the other, then what is your solution or do you just want to go back to the old system that caters only to males? We are a very adaptive species and I believe we will cope with this little problem. Males need to get use to it anyways as more and more jobs demand being stuck in a seat all day looking at a computer monitor. Consider this job training. All my cousins gripe about being stuck in class all day and then summer rolls around and they are still stuck inside all day playing video games.
Quoted for Truth.

Guys do not have mental problems. They are not slow. They are not underdeveloped or sick. I have met people with actual mental illnesses, I worked with them for 3 years, and I was part of their class. The males you are referring to are -lazy-. As mimartin said, guys will gripe and complain, and refuse to do the work all school year but then go home and play video games for 10 hours and not move the entire time.

The school system is not singling out males. They are not mistreating them. They are simply doing exactly what they have been doing for years: Running a crappy education system to get kids through school. Some pass, some fail. Genetics are not to blame here. Gender is not to blame here. Society and parents are to blame. The kids who stay glued to their Xbox for 10 hours and refuse to do work at school are not being mistreated, they just simply refuse to step up to the plate and take responsibility for their life.

Anybody can pass High School. I live in San Diego, and when I was in High School we had people coming in freshman year who barely knew English passing all their classes and getting their work in. They passed because they tried, male or female. The system does not mistreat boys. Boys mistreat themselves. Girl mistreat themselves. Want a reason why these boys are failing school? Because their idiot parents never taught them responsibly, got it into their heads that sports can make your life, and society has been saying for awhile now to the youth of America that an education is simply a reason for the man to put you down.

The "me!" generation we have going on uses the excuse of racism, prejudice, mental illness, drugs, etc as excuses simply not to take responsibly for their own life and instead have their parents guide them through their troubles. In all this coddling, loving, and obsession with making their kids happy, living an "innocent childhood", and making excuses for their "emotional health", parents having brought their own kids down and kept them from growing up. Same goes for the opposite when parents abuse their kids. Girls were taught years ago that their life was not worth much outside a kitchen, so they failed school. Now it has reversed, and the "me!" generation is bringing down both boys and girls alike. It just seem like the guys are getting the worst of it.

By saying that boys are being singled out by sexist schools is simply helping these boys and girls cuddle up behind the people willing to defend them so they do not have to grow up.

Guys develop slower in some areas, this is true, however learning disabilities are being over diagnosed now, because classes are catering to the learning styles of girls. The loss of recess, being stuck in a seat all day, girls can handle it better than guys can. Separating genders probably won't help, because either one gender or the other will end up with access to better learning materials, probably the girls will get the more up to date learning materials.
How are the classes catering to girls exactly? I was in school not to long ago and I am still well in touch with the "me!" generation. The girls passed classes because they had the mindset to pass classes. A lot of girls failed because they did not have that mindset. A lot of guys failed because they screwed around during class, did not turn in work, and mouthed off to the teacher. That is not the teacher's failing, that is the kids and parents failing.

Classes are being tailored in a way that hurts boys, while catering to most girls' strengths.
Boys hurt themselves. People are responsible for their own actions a lot of the time, and the actions of these adolescents can be blamed on their upbringing. I didn't really ever see the guys failing my classes actually attempt to ask for help or pass the class. No, the sat down, talked to their partner, and never did a lick of work.

While there are some teachers and schools out there trying to help boys catch up, I imagine they'll soon be facing lawsuits from the feminist movement.
What on earth does the feminist movement have to do with this? This is not a conspiracy by the feminists to make boys look bad so women can rule the world. The boys are doing that to themselves.

When this issue was first brought up, the feminist movement cried foul, saying it's just girls are now able to show their potential and people are sexist to say the classrooms are catering to girls.
Ummm... maybe because the girls are actually doing the work? It is not sexist to say that one gender is doing better than the other in the school system if it is fact, by your article. Don't blame the feminists, don't blame the school, don't even blame the teachers. Blame the people who raised them this way. If boys could rock school 100 years ago and girls failed at all turns, then the boys should be able to turn that around if they wanted. They just don't want to because they would rather play video games.

Oh please, this isn't about adapting this is about throwing kids into situations that they aren't ready for. An analogy would be tossing someone off a boat without a life preserver.
I think that is exactly the situation. Parents are raising their kids badly, and throwing them into a school setting to which they are not mature enough to handle.

There is a difference between new experiences and setting someone up to fail.
You are assuming, again, that the school system hates boys. It does not. Want to know a fun fact? In all of my classes, the Honors group was 90% girls. The College Prep was all the rest of the boys in the class and usually 1 girl. They just don't want to step up to the plate to higher themselves, even though the opportunity is right in front of them.

I imagine someone was there to help you if you started to drown.
That someone should be themselves, and the people who raised them. Not the school system, especially if they have already refused to take the help of the system.

Oh I'm sorry I didn't mention those, I had 3 recesses, Music, Art, and PE in elementry. Little kids need to be able to move around, boys learn by doing, not sitting there filling out worksheets.
Fun fact: Doing worksheets is doing something. Running around for 6 hours outside does not teach boys math, does not teach them english, and does not set them up for High School and College. You are making excuses for them. If a boy cannot sit down and do work, even if he is younger, that is the fault of his parents for not teaching him to respect their teacher and the time the teacher spends on them. These boys simply refuse to do the work, period.

The school system sucks, I agree. But I went to the newest High School in the district. Brand New. Less than 5 years old. Best teachers, best books, best computers, best everything in the entire area. The guys still failed. Girls still failed. Boys still passed. Girls still passed. I have seen some really really really crappy schools in the area. Classes that are made of cardboard boxes stapled into walls. People still passed, and still failed in both genders.

The people who passed earned it. The people who failed earned it. And the people who failed did so of their own free will. The people who passed did so of their own free will.

Thats my opinion.

JediMaster12
07-02-2007, 07:47 PM
You DID mean 80 and 60 cents respectively? Otherwise, there'd be no reason to hire men for just about anything, let alone outsource to other countries. ;)
For every dollar women make 80 cents. That was what I was getting at. I have friends at the women center at school and I get swamped every time I go by that place with info so yeah I know about Rosie the Riveter and Dolores Huerta.

mimartin
07-02-2007, 08:15 PM
I imagine someone was there to help you if you started to drown.

Iíll just say that I was not overly confident in the ability of my drunken uncle to save me or anyone else. I got to shore on my own and Iím still an expert at the dog paddle. My mother upon hearing this fired my uncle from his baby setting duties and enrolled me with the city pool to get properly trained in the art of swimming.

It wasn't entirely my uncle's fault. It was after all the way both he and my mother were taught to swim. That is one family tradition that will end with me.

Totenkopf
07-02-2007, 08:40 PM
For every dollar women make 80 cents. That was what I was getting at. I have friends at the women center at school and I get swamped every time I go by that place with info so yeah I know about Rosie the Riveter and Dolores Huerta.

Heard of Rosie, but who's Dolores? I only noted that b/c you originally wrote 8 and 6. Private industry, hell..even govt, would love to be able to pay people those kind of wages. ;) Frankly, have never had problem with the gap, so long as it was comparing apples and oranges (truck driver v waitress).
However, pay should be equalized across the board for the same type of labor w/in a company, at least at the hourly rate. Salaries might vary due to other issues (maternity leave, etc..).

Back O/T, I went to a mixed grade school system and a male only HS. Seems to me that both sexes learn better when seperated. Even then, some will always excel, while others lag behind. Besides, they'll get reintegrated back at the university level, unless they pick a single gender college. Doesn't seem to do their socializing skills any harm either.

True_Avery
07-02-2007, 08:51 PM
Back O/T, I went to a mixed grade school system and a male only HS. Seems to me that both sexes learn better when seperated. Even then, some will always excel, while others lag behind. Besides, they'll get reintegrated back at the university level, unless they pick a single gender college. Doesn't seem to do their socializing skills any harm either.
Where do you live by the way? I might be out of touch with the system, but to my knowledge there are no all boy or full girl schools in the USA and few in England. I would have been thrilled to go to an all girls school personally.

JediMaster12
07-02-2007, 09:30 PM
Totenkpof: Dolores Huerta is the right hand woman of the United Farm Workers org that was started by Cesar Chavez. She has come to our campus already and there is talk that she may come again. Here in California, the United Farm Workers was a bg thing in the 60's with the Bracero Program and all. I think that was a typo with the 8 and the 6. Sometimes I think faster than I write and vice versa.

TK-8252
07-02-2007, 10:30 PM
OMG, **** having gender-segregated schools. I'd say the only redeeming quality of schools in America is they're the best place to meet (or just look at) hot girls your age. Without that I'd probably drop out.

Totenkopf
07-02-2007, 10:57 PM
Where do you live by the way? I might be out of touch with the system, but to my knowledge there are no all boy or full girl schools in the USA and few in England. I would have been thrilled to go to an all girls school personally.

I went to catholic school, though you'd not necessarily know that from sitting in religion class (especially in HS). Grade school was mixed, but there were several all girl high schools w/in a mile of us (2 of them also catholic and 2 private). I doubt you'd find a "segregated" public school in the US, at least none that I've ever heard of before. The schools are located in Pgh. PA. There was at least one mixed gender catholic hs as well.

@TK-8252---somehow, we managed.

True_Avery
07-03-2007, 02:53 AM
OMG, **** having gender-segregated schools. I'd say the only redeeming quality of schools in America is they're the best place to meet (or just look at) hot girls your age. Without that I'd probably drop out.
And, with that, you have proven my point. You have also proven that a gender segregated school would do you, and a lot of other people wonders.

Schools are not to blame for being sexist and causing guys to fail. Guys are quite capable of ruining their own life, and to emphasize this: "Without that I'd probably drop out".

It does seem that schools are turning into a fashion show by the year though. Maybe gender segregation and such is not what we need...

Mandatory uniforms for all schools anyone?
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=180131

TK-8252
07-03-2007, 02:56 AM
And, with that, you have proven my point. You have also proven that a gender segregated school would do you, and a lot of other people wonders.

How does that do people wonders? Having dudes drop out instead of going to school at all?

Mandatory uniforms for all schools anyone?

Ah hell no.

True_Avery
07-03-2007, 03:11 AM
How does that do people wonders? Having dudes drop out instead of going to school at all?
No, it would mean people would actually go to school to learn instead of a reason to stare at eachother.

TK-8252
07-03-2007, 03:13 AM
No, it would mean people would actually go to school to learn instead of a reason to stare at eachother.

A lot of people wouldn't go to school. Especially when you consider that the school system in America just sucks and doesn't teach you anything. The only reason some people go to school is because there are redeeming qualities... such as it being a place for hooking up, or showing off, or whatever. Take away those things and then people won't go period.

True_Avery
07-03-2007, 03:29 AM
A lot of people wouldn't go to school. Especially when you consider that the school system in America just sucks and doesn't teach you anything. The only reason some people go to school is because there are redeeming qualities... such as it being a place for hooking up, or showing off, or whatever. Take away those things and then people won't go period.
There is nothing, or very little wrong with the current education system at all besides the students of the "me!" generation. You are making an excuse in saying the system sucks, and is thus not worth it "because it teaches you nothing." No, you teach yourself nothing. The teachers teach you a lot, you just refuse to listen.

Oh, people would go to school because their parents would still make them and law would still make them. Maybe you would drop out, but then you prove my point of poor upraising and the fact there is nothing wrong with the schools but with the students and the parents who raised them. Some people go to school to learn and better themselves, some go to look at people. If the people that go for the sole fact they like to stare at a girl's breasts drop out... well, we will have an influx of people into dirty jobs and restraunts. Which could be good, because that means I don't have to trust them with something important since obviously they are not willing to do what it takes to become a working part of society.

And, if schools are now truly about "showing off" then I deeply... deeply fear for America when they actually grow up to control this country. I don't give a damn how good you look, because in 20-30 years that tight skin, amazing hair, and perfect body goes away when age steps in. Your mind lasts your entire life, your teenage body only lasts a little. If you, and everybody else would drop out when fashion is no longer a factor in education simply because you cannot "show off" then there is nothing wrong with the schools. The problem is brain dead kids being raised by brain dead parents in a completely lacking society controled by brain dead adults.

TK-8252
07-03-2007, 03:42 AM
Sorry but our schools suck. They don't teach you anything. Just look at how European schools do in comparison to ours. It's not the students that are the problem, it's our government that underfunds schools, sets a retarded curriculum, and discourages private competition.

well, we will have an influx of people into dirty jobs and restraunts.

Actually no. If more people started dropping out, then more employers would start accepting drop-outs. Otherwise they wouldn't have enough employees. And you would be suprised how well drop-outs can do, especially when self-employed. This whole "oh if you don't go to school, you'll work at McDonalds all your life" line is pretty much crap. Don't mistake me for glorifying dropping out, however. I'm just saying, it's not as bad as a lot of people make it out to be.

Totenkopf
07-03-2007, 04:48 AM
Actually, True, there are a lot of things wrong with education in this country (from the NEA being more concerned with $$ and politics than education to social promotion rather than skill based advancement). That said, there are many good schools in the country as well, and pockets of learning actually taking place in many substandard institutions. Part of the problem with education in this country is that the inmates often run the asylum. Discipline is difficult b/c the kids know they can get a lawyer to gum up the works, should, God forbid, anyone try to straighten them out. A lot of books are boring or factually incorrect. Students, unfortunately, need to be motivated to learn, and a lot of teacher's are often poor, but can't be gotten rid of b/c of issues like tenure/seniority. Top it off with often hostile parents who were poor students themselves, and it's a wonder many kids learn anything at all. I almost marvel that teachers in the public system can maintain the desire to stick it out in many areas. Good teachers can often make a difference, but it's an uphill struggle in a system that's largely abandonned them. This in no way exonerates students who won't make the effort to learn, nor their parents who won't get involved in their kids education either. But to place all the blame on the students is shortsighted.

TK, they might accept more dropouts, but the pay would be abysmally low in comparison to the wages received by those who didn't drop out. Look at the current disparity between even what HS and University graduates get over their lifetimes. That isn't absolute, btw, but a good rule of thumb. Some people who drop out of school are very bright (higher IQ), but most don't tend to be. There is more to success than a diploma/ged, but they are often necessary for most people. It sucks, but it's true. I used to wonder about the expectations of education when I'd get results in 3rd grade which said I was operating at levels expected from someone 1/2 way through their senior year of hs.

True_Avery
07-03-2007, 05:41 AM
Actually, True, there are a lot of things wrong with education in this country (from the NEA being more concerned with $$ and politics than education to social promotion rather than skill based advancement). That said, there are many good schools in the country as well, and pockets of learning actually taking place in many substandard institutions. Part of the problem with education in this country is that the inmates often run the asylum. Discipline is difficult b/c the kids know they can get a lawyer to gum up the works, should, God forbid, anyone try to straighten them out. A lot of books are boring or factually incorrect. Students, unfortunately, need to be motivated to learn, and a lot of teacher's are often poor, but can't be gotten rid of b/c of issues like tenure/seniority. Top it off with often hostile parents who were poor students themselves, and it's a wonder many kids learn anything at all. I almost marvel that teachers in the public system can maintain the desire to stick it out in many areas. Good teachers can often make a difference, but it's an uphill struggle in a system that's largely abandonned them. This in no way exonerates students who won't make the effort to learn, nor their parents who won't get involved in their kids education either. But to place all the blame on the students is shortsighted.
I agree, and after thinking that over I find I worded what I was trying put across badly.

Schools are indeed bad, but not as bad as I think people put that out to be. Yes, they suck, but that does not mean they teach you nothing at all. I learned a lot from my schools even though my school was lacking in a lot, I still got good grades and absorbed what was being taught over students who did nothing but talk in class. But, that may just be personal experience with my schools as I know there are schools out there that are simply terrible... like another high school down my street.

How society currently works nowadays probably has some blame for this. Schools have little money, and we all know that and that is why it makes a lot of them pretty terrible. But that is the governments fault, not the school systems. And the government, to be quiet honest, is all the people who are under that government. People scream and yell about the education system all the time, but since a majority vote does not seem to get money into schools, it just looks like everybody is a hypacrit not willing to pay the extra tax dollars or vote people in who actually care.

I agree, forcing all the blame onto the kids is short-sighted. Schools that get a lot of money do great. But, the -best- schools are uniform schools with parents that get actively involved with the school. If kids are willing to drop out so casually and see education as simply irrelevent to life (In which some ways it is), then that fault can be put on the upraising of the child. Upraising includes both parents and the society they grew up in.

If we fed more money into the system then some thing would happen. Teachers would actually compete for the jobs because it would pay well, bringing in higher quality teaching. All gear and books up to date. Classrooms that looks nice. Studies have shown that high money schools get better grade averages and less drop outs, but what does that still say about the kids that drop out?

Blame can be put on the schools, yes, but I still think far too much blame is put on the schools because the parents blaming the schools are not willingto step up to the plate and take some responsibility for how they raised their kid.

But, as has been said, dropping out does not end your life and yes many people do great even after they have dropped out. But just because some do better, does not mean you will do better. All these boys dropping out... not doing work... sure, the dropping out part can be ignored in a lot of situations... but what does that say about you as a person? I think far too few people view school as a job. School is a test for real life, and it is not like a job is suddenly heaven. The majority of jobs suck. School sucks a lot of the time. But what kind of habits and such have you given yourself by quitting your job of school, not doing the work in school, etc? Ya know, in school you can refuse to do work and goof off. You goof off at our job and refuse to do work... you get fired. As a teacher told me one day, "a lot of things in school arn't fair, but a lot of things in life arn't fair either. You can quit school, ignore the rules, and come late to school if you want to, but we punish you for being late to class not to anoy you, but because being late to your -job- after school means you get fired. It is about building habits, good habits." Throwing school off as not being worth it does not show much to an employer. You can be freaking brilliant, but when you sign on for a career one of the first things they will ask you is "why did you dump school?" Because, how can they trust you to do a job you might not like if you were not willing to do school just because it wasn't very bearable? Dropping out is not a bad thing in of itself, but it does not exactly reflect on your person very well.

All in all, the blame seems to fall evenly on everybody as I am still having some debates with myself on who could solidly be blames for this. I tried the parents and students thing, but it seems just as convienent as blaming the school.

But, mostly I'm throwing things out to see how it debates and such. So far my opinion on this has changed a few times over the cource of this thread.

JediMaster12
07-03-2007, 12:01 PM
If kids are willing to drop out so casually and see education as simply irrelevent to life (In which some ways it is), then that fault can be put on the upraising of the child. Upraising includes both parents and the society they grew up in.
So true. While I was classed with the AP/IB kids, I still got to be around the college prep kids. Those were the two classifications. Anyway it shocked me when I would hear students say yeah I ditched four times this week and I am still getting an A. It made me wonder what was going on.

As to whether or not being required to wear uniforms is a critical factor in school success seems trivial. There have been cases where a low income school has surpassed expectations in state testing scores and in the classrooms. True parent involvment helps a bit but I think part of it too has to do with the faculty. Yeah there is always the problem of having those who have taught for so many years that they think they know everything but there are some who think that students aren't worth their time and it shows. If you don't set the bar above expectations, how do you expect students to set their own goals?

Darth InSidious
07-03-2007, 12:32 PM
Your teaching of history, I am told, is in particular need of rebuilding.

Totenkopf
07-03-2007, 01:07 PM
Yeah, even in the accelerated classes. I took AP US History in hs and we never got much past the Depression era, and that class was divided up over two years. What we glibly call "contemporary" (post WW2) history was relegated to about a week or so of ad hoc discussions before finals week. Pretty much the same with European history, though that was only a one year course. Well, there's always college/uni to fill in the rest of those gaps with specialized courses. O'course now history classes are even more blinkered b/c special interests have turned them into PC drivel. Thank God I managed to miss that.

@True--well, a fair amount of money is thrown at education, but throwing $$ at the problem only guarantees corruption, not results. The system needs to be reformed, not rewarded, due to it's general incompetence. Afterall, the basic math and science that you teach at lower levels of school hasn't changed that much in centuries. While bells and whistles are nice, the basics aren't that expensive. Produce a competent student body with what you get first, then we'll talk about extras. The libs love to talk about more funding for education b/c it's always great to hide behind "do it for the children" where people can't see the real agenda, which is to pump more soft cash into the democrat party machine. I'm NOT saying the other side is saintly, but that's just the way it is.

mimartin
07-03-2007, 01:48 PM
There is a difference between new experiences and setting someone up to fail.

You are making an accusation against every school administrator, principle and teacher in the US. Youíre not really saying that you believe there is this huge conspiracy being perpetrated against male students to purposely set young male children up to fail? Males still control most of the power in government how would they allow this to happen? Why would they do this?

What I believe is beyond our education system in need of overhauling is that the system is fairer now that it has ever been in its brief history. Females have caught up and passed males on a level playing field and now we males are crying foul instead of seeing it for what it is a challenge.

This really isnít a gender problem as last I checked parents came in both sexes. It is up to parents to care enough about their child to get involved in his/her education. If the child is failing then find out the reasons and work to correct the problem. Sometime we should look in the mirror before blaming the teacher.

Jae Onasi
07-03-2007, 02:21 PM
Here's a newsflash:
Schools are not here for your entertainment. They are not here for you to find someone to 'hook up with' and get laid. They are not here to be be your social outlet.

Schools are here to EDUCATE.

Buck it up and deal with it. You can either do the work and learn something or you can handicap yourself by sitting around wasting time coming up with ways to try to get out of the work and not learn. You think you'll be able to sit around doing nothing on a job? Think again. It's better for you to learn some good work ethics and knowledge now while you're in school rather than learn it the hard way when you have to support yourself on a minimum-wage paycheck.

Part of the problem is that we're trying to bring everyone to a mediocre level instead of accepting the fact that we're mostly average, but some people with incredibly low IQs aren't going to do well and some incredibly brilliant people are going to go a lot farther than average. Very rarely is the teacher the problem, though I've met some spectacularly awful ones who need to be kicked out of the system.

Part of the problem is over-bureaucratized systems that make teachers and allied professionals waste a ton of time and money on idiotic paperwork and useless programs instead of concentrating on using that time and money where it really belongs, which is educating children.

Part of the problem is also the fact that a lot of parents think it's the school's job to do everything, and they're too busy or too lazy to put some work into their own kids' education. They also don't accept the fact that little Johnny and Suzy aren't perfect, and aren't always going to do the work well. They expect their kids to get perfect grades without any work, and they are doing their kids no favors by not being active participants in their children's education.

JediMaster12
07-03-2007, 02:24 PM
Your teaching of history, I am told, is in particular need of rebuilding.
I wouldn't know about that since I don't go to the history books but straight to the primary doc. That and I had good professors. Plus I am such a cynic with history that it makes conversation enlightening with mach.

I would say curriculum all around needs rebuilding. :D

Totenkopf
07-03-2007, 03:27 PM
Here's a newsflash:
You think you'll be able to sit around doing nothing on a job? Think again.

Yeah, you've got to at least get a union job/tenure/primo executive position before you can get paid for nothin'. :xp: :lol:

GarfieldJL
07-03-2007, 05:18 PM
Okay here's the situation:

Boys develop fine motor skills later than girls, that affects one's ability to write. So in many cases when writing is now being introduced, boys are not physically ready for it. I know first hand about problems with fine motor skills cause for the longest time it took me 5 minutes to write one word in cursive, it was that difficult for me. Yes I have dysgraphia, but that just goes to so I'm a more extreme example but still. I got F's in handwriting, got good grades in other subjects but D's and F's in handwriting. It had nothing to do with lazyiness though, in most boys their fine motor skills eventually match girls, but in my case it's not something that practice helps much. It finally ended up where the school was forced to provide a word processor in my classroom and at home for my use for school work. Which they originally tried to block but ended up having to do so because my mother actually knew the law concerning people with disabilities.

Next there is the fact that girls actually have an advantage in a classroom where you sit at a desk doing worksheets all day. It's a lot harder on boys because they need the external stimulus, while video games do provide stimuli, they also need to have hands on things. Like actual science experiments too teach, so they actually experience something for themselves.

For instance in 5th grade my teacher had us come up with an experiment using 2 sheets of newspaper, staples, tape, and x amount of string. We had to build something so that an egg could survive a drop of approximately 15-20 feet. And we couldn't build a parachute. See something with educational value without worksheets, without just sitting at desks etc. I'm really glad I had that teacher, because if I had some other teachers that make you sit at a desk all day I would have pretty much given up on school thinking everything was boring. The books we had in 1st and 2nd grade were awful, so boring that I didn't want to read, my mom got me interested in Hardy Boys which were at a 4th grade reading level when I was in 2nd grade. I became an avid reader after that, the problem isn't laziness the problem is the method of teaching causes boredom especially in boys. While this affects girls too, they are better able to cope than boys.

As far as throwing money at the problem, that doesn't help anything when the quality of teachers is lousy. Many schools spend the money on some stupid building project or sometimes ends up going to the salary of adminstrators.

While poor parenting is partially to blame, it is not the sole cause for people doing poorly in school and it is definately not the cause for the disproportionate number of boys doing poorly in school compared to girls. What seems to be laziness is actually where they've completely given up because they are so frustrated with it. It has nothing to do with the "me" generation, if it did it would be the same between boys and girls.

So yes there is discrimination of boys in public schools, either deliberately or unintentionally.

Lord Spitfire
07-03-2007, 07:18 PM
The school system is not singling out males. They are not mistreating them. They are simply doing exactly what they have been doing for years: Running a crappy education system to get kids through school. (snipped for brevity) But I went to the newest High School in the district. Brand New. Less than 5 years old. Best teachers, best books, best computers, best everything in the entire area. The guys still failed. Girls still failed. Boys still passed. Girls still passed. I have seen some really really really crappy schools in the area. Classes that are made of cardboard boxes stapled into walls. People still passed, and still failed in both genders.

You're right. A lot of children these days are spoiled and don't care about schoolwork, and there are a few in my high school that do such, though I go to a good school, so there are few of those people.

In my school, the school works it teachers to both genders' strengths. I'm in the accelarated group, which is made upof almost equal amount of girls and boys.

The people who passed earned it. The people who failed earned it. And the people who failed did so of their own free will. The people who passed did so of their own free will.

Thats my opinion.

This I agree with. My great grandfather was raised up in a small village in India, and there was only one, single-building, school in the entire village. His father died of the plague when he was seven. The school had few facilities, no computers, no electricity, very few books, overcrowded number of students, not enough money for enough uniforms, and things like that.

Yet he worked hard, went to college, and ontop of that gota doctor's degree. It doesn't matter what school you go to in the end, but how hard you work.

GarfieldJL
07-03-2007, 09:25 PM
So you're saying boys are lazier than girls? Cause that's what it looks like you're saying. As a guy I take offense to that especially since due to my disabilities I've had to work 3 times harder than the average student to show my potential.


Seriously, if it were just laziness it would be both boys and girls failing at an even rate. It wouldn't be a disproportionate number of boys being put in special ed, compaired to girls. I've seen special ed classes and the schools tried to put me in one and thank goodness my mom threatened to take them to court if they tried cause I'd have been bored to tears, there was about 4 boys to every girl. 80% of the special ed class was boys, and you want to tell me that it's due to laziness!

TK-8252
07-03-2007, 09:35 PM
Schools are here to EDUCATE.

Then the schools need to educate, not just babysit.

[...] when you have to support yourself on a minimum-wage paycheck.

I get paid more than minimum wage just bagging groceries. And I'm still in high school.

Part of the problem is over-bureaucratized systems that make teachers and allied professionals waste a ton of time and money on idiotic paperwork and useless programs instead of concentrating on using that time and money where it really belongs, which is educating children.

Part of the problem is also the fact that a lot of parents think it's the school's job to do everything, and they're too busy or too lazy to put some work into their own kids' education. They also don't accept the fact that little Johnny and Suzy aren't perfect, and aren't always going to do the work well. They expect their kids to get perfect grades without any work, and they are doing their kids no favors by not being active participants in their children's education.

I fully agree with you on these points.

True_Avery
07-04-2007, 12:22 AM
Then the schools need to educate, not just babysit.
Then maybe you should listen. Don't know your school education system, but saying to yourself the system is useless seems more like an excuse not to care at all.

I get paid more than minimum wage just bagging groceries. And I'm still in high school.
Are you going to make a career out of that? Jobs don't seem to care much, but a career is indeed going to look at how you did in High School regardless of how bad you think the education system is. Also, I am not familar to where you live but out here it is impossible for live on anywhere close to minimum wage.

Seriously, if it were just laziness it would be both boys and girls failing at an even rate. It wouldn't be a disproportionate number of boys being put in special ed, compaired to girls. I've seen special ed classes and the schools tried to put me in one and thank goodness my mom threatened to take them to court if they tried cause I'd have been bored to tears, there was about 4 boys to every girl. 80% of the special ed class was boys, and you want to tell me that it's due to laziness!
I was in one of those classes myself, and there were indeed about 5 boys to every girl.

I think both genders are lazy, but on average it seem that boys nowdays are lazier than girls in classes. Now, I am not saying you yourself are because a lot of the smartest people I knew in school were actually boys... but the majority of failing were also boys. Why? I will say it again and again and again. Because they simply did not do the work. Please, don't try to defend the boys in my class who I honestly knew were there only because of the social intereaction. They failed -themself-, plain and simple. The girls -worked-. They -worked-. If you are really going to use that silly "boys have loaded up energy" excuse, then please keep it in elementary school and middle school. In High School you should be mature enough to control your energy and have the mental capability to sit down and do work regardless of your handwriting. I knew boys with -terrible- handwriting as well as girls who still got A's in class.

The system is not sexist, the students are just lazy and refuse to do the work like children.

TK-8252
07-04-2007, 12:39 AM
Then maybe you should listen. Don't know your school education system, but saying to yourself the system is useless seems more like an excuse not to care at all.

I have listened, usually do listen, and have made up my mind that what the teacher is forced by the bureaucrats at the school board to say is not useful to the advancement of my education. Just because it's school does not make it helpful, useful, or of any value. Perhaps the schools need to teach things that ACTUALLY might help you with a career, instead of just forcing you to do book reports on boring books that have no impact on society. That's called babysitting.

Are you going to make a career out of that?

I certainly don't except to work at a grocery store my whole life, unless I was a manager or something, but I know a lot of older guys and older ladies at the store I work at who DID make a career out of it... and while it's not the must fun work (how many people have fun jobs?), and not the most high-paying work, they must somehow get by, because they seem to be doing quite well for themselves. Not that I'm saying working at a grocery store your whole life is a promising career choice. I'm just saying... again... it's not as bad as people make it out to be.

Jobs don't seem to care much, but a career is indeed going to look at how you did in High School regardless of how bad you think the education system is.

You're right. Which is why those planning on college careers really do have to bite the bullet at school. Doesn't mean, though, that the educational value of schools shouldn't be increased.

Also, I am not familar to where you live but out here it is impossible for live on anywhere close to minimum wage.

Well of course it's impossible. But that's why there's pay raises, promotions, and other advancements. I know dudes at my store getting paid ten bucks an hour if not more. Just to stock shelves.

Jae Onasi
07-04-2007, 01:06 AM
Perhaps the schools need to teach things that ACTUALLY might help you with a career, instead of just forcing you to do book reports on boring books that have no impact on society. That's called babysitting.

No, that's called 'teaching you how to write' and 'learning what good writing is'. Something that many of the current high school students and those coming out of high school for about the last 10 or 15 years have failed to grasp. The writing skills of many (note I did _not_ say _all_, and I would say most that are here do not fall into that category) teens is atrocious. With the internet exploding, writing skills are becoming even _more_ essential than even 10 years ago. It's also not necessarily about the subject, but also about learning _how to work_. Is your boss going to care whether you think some task is stupid or not? No, he's going to tell you to do it anyway, regardless of your feelings on the matter.


I certainly don't except to work at a grocery store my whole life,... Not that I'm saying working at a grocery store your whole life is a promising career choice. I'm just saying... again... it's not as bad as people make it out to be. If that's what you want to be, that's fine. Just work on being the best at it and have pride in doing a good job.


Well of course it's impossible. But that's why there's pay raises, promotions, and other advancements. I know dudes at my store getting paid ten bucks an hour if not more. Just to stock shelves.

There's a point where you are going to max out your wages and be at a dead end in low-level jobs that anyone without a diploma can do. You're going to make far more in life if you get a college degree and to do that, you have to do well in high school.

TK-8252
07-04-2007, 01:50 AM
No, that's called 'teaching you how to write' and 'learning what good writing is'. Something that many of the current high school students and those coming out of high school for about the last 10 or 15 years have failed to grasp. The writing skills of many (note I did _not_ say _all_, and I would say most that are here do not fall into that category) teens is atrocious. With the internet exploding, writing skills are becoming even _more_ essential than even 10 years ago. It's also not necessarily about the subject, but also about learning _how to work_. Is your boss going to care whether you think some task is stupid or not? No, he's going to tell you to do it anyway, regardless of your feelings on the matter.

I agree with you on the writing skills thing. I think though that a lot of teens basically CHOOSE to write incorrectly when they have the ability to write correctly. This is partly a problem with the attitudes of the teens, and partly the problem with the school for not correcting it. And the thing about if you think your task at work is stupid: you're paid to do it, so what's it matter if it's stupid or not? If it's really stupid, though, then maybe consider another job.

Totenkopf
07-04-2007, 04:12 AM
And the thing about if you think your task at work is stupid: you're paid to do it, so what's it matter if it's stupid or not? If it's really stupid, though, then maybe consider another job.

Excellent observation, and I mean that seriously. I've seen the care some people get at nursing homes b/c the staff basically treats the patients as nothing more than a meal ticket. If you don't like the job, do everyone (yourself especially) a favor and get the hell outta dodge. Just remember, however, every job has its crappy side, no exceptions. Of the grocery stockers you know getting $10+/hr, how long did it take for them to get there? And where exactly in the country are they? $10/hr seems like a decent amount, till you factor in the location as NY, CT or AK (to name a few expensive states).

True_Avery
07-04-2007, 07:06 AM
You are getting "paid" by going to school though. You go there to learn, you learn, and then if you graduate you get a diploma and have the opportunity to move onto a good college. Your payment is your bigger paycheck later in life instead of being stuck in dead-end jobs with not a lot of options for career. But, you are indeed right on a few fronts about the education system being about biting a bullet.

And call the system all you want. There are kids all around the world living in poverty that would be glad to take your place and learn a few things. Think an essay is a waste of time? Wait till you get to college. It may seem like a waste now, but in college that writing skill you practiced in High School suddenly helps out a lot. But, I do agree with everybody in the thread in saying improvements could be done but... not going to change anytime soon, so work with what you got. Thats what I did.

Life sucks in a lot of places, especially when you have to do something you hate. Biting the bullet and doing the work builds good discipline for jobs and careers, helping you on your way to promotions and all that good stuff. If you truly think you are learning nothing, then use the time to better yourself. Teach yourself some stuff online if you want. But since the system is not going to fix itself anytime soon then just try and work with what you are given and try to find something good you can get out of every crappy asignment. Sounds cheesy, but yeah.

My mom went back to college when I was half way through High School and it really came to her attention how truly bad the system was when she compared what I was doing to what she was doing. College drop-outs have been the highest in years, which does put a bad light on current schools for not properly preparing kids for College.

Just a few quick thoughts.

You're right. Which is why those planning on college careers really do have to bite the bullet at school. Doesn't mean, though, that the educational value of schools shouldn't be increased.
Agreed.

GarfieldJL
07-04-2007, 12:24 PM
You are getting "paid" by going to school though. You go there to learn, you learn, and then if you graduate you get a diploma and have the opportunity to move onto a good college. Your payment is your bigger paycheck later in life instead of being stuck in dead-end jobs with not a lot of options for career. But, you are indeed right on a few fronts about the education system being about biting a bullet.


There are ways to teach without sitting someone at a desk all day doing worksheets. Seriously, my parents and the good teachers I did have kept me interested in learning. If I had just been stuck at a desk all day doing worksheets, or doing book reports on books I would have had absolutely no interest in learning whatsoever, I seriously wouldn't have seen the point because there wouldn't have been any practical point I would have seen. Laziness had nothing to do with the equation, frustration and everything being taught seeming to be pointless was the culprits. While you're in school to learn, that doesn't mean fun should be taken out of the equation. The fact is girls are better at coping with sitting at a desk all day than boys are. That has nothing to do with laziness, it has to do with how boys are hardwired.



And call the system all you want. There are kids all around the world living in poverty that would be glad to take your place and learn a few things. Think an essay is a waste of time? Wait till you get to college. It may seem like a waste now, but in college that writing skill you practiced in High School suddenly helps out a lot. But, I do agree with everybody in the thread in saying improvements could be done but... not going to change anytime soon, so work with what you got. Thats what I did.


While I agree a lot of kids in poor countries would be glad to take our places in school, the question is whether it is just about learning. Consider the fact that school lunches while many of us would consider to be garbage (and yes school meals compared to homecooking tends to be garbage), to many kids living in poverty in 3rd world countries it would be like a feast.

Also I'd have to partially disagree with you on essays in high school being useful in college. It really depends what major you're in and what courses you're taking. Writing an essay on War and Peace is not a valuable learning experience for writing scientific essays. The writing style is totally different, I honestly used more of the lab report styles from my science classes than I used learning in English class.


Life sucks in a lot of places, especially when you have to do something you hate. Biting the bullet and doing the work builds good discipline for jobs and careers, helping you on your way to promotions and all that good stuff. If you truly think you are learning nothing, then use the time to better yourself. Teach yourself some stuff online if you want. But since the system is not going to fix itself anytime soon then just try and work with what you are given and try to find something good you can get out of every crappy asignment. Sounds cheesy, but yeah.


I'm talking about more than a crappy assignment here and there, I'm talking about bad assignment on top of bad assignment where there doesn't seem to be any point for it whatsoever. You have to get kids interested in learning while they're young, because they generally haven't developed enough yet to think long-term. If you just keep giving them worksheets and have them sit at a desk all day, it discourages them and makes it so they are frustrated and feel it is a big waste of time. Girls develop fine motor skills before boys do, and when handwriting is now being taught boys generally are physically not ready. So you have a bunch boys whom are 5-6 years old, already starting to fall behind and fail constantly, do you know how frustrating that is for them?

Seriously, I've been in this situation in second grade, with a lousy teacher. She said I was a below average student, even insulted my intelligence, some of them said I could never make it to college. I was taken to an expert whom diagnosed my learning disabilities and the school was forced to provide accomidations for me. Guess what, I made it to college I was an engineering major for 3 years before I switched, after burning myself out, taking classes with absolutely no break in between. I'm now in Computer Graphics Tech, and doing well. Now you want to tell me that my problems, and problems that other boys have is due to laziness? Cause that's what it sounds like.



My mom went back to college when I was half way through High School and it really came to her attention how truly bad the system was when she compared what I was doing to what she was doing. College drop-outs have been the highest in years, which does put a bad light on current schools for not properly preparing kids for College.


My mom also graduated from college, and got a dual masters back when women were being discriminated against in college. That's how she knew the laws concerning people with disabilities and what my rights were. That's why she didn't let the school just throw me in special education.

To be honest, I found a lot of my high school classes to be ridiculously easy, I often did my school work in class while the teacher was lecturing cause I already knew it. I really feel that high school except for my teacher in physics my senior year, did little to prepare me for college.

Simon92
07-04-2007, 12:44 PM
It's OK in the end, because sexist discrimination by Females to Males [and racial discrimination by Black people to white people] is officially called...get this...POSITIVE DISCRIMINATION! What could be more positive than discrimination?!?!

Also, if schools are there to educate why don't they bleeding well do that? I can't learn at school because the teachers are so awful and everyone misbehaves all the time. AND I go to a selective grammer school - Bournemouth School - often referred to as one of the best in the country! What is the world coming to? And going to a boys only school I personally don't see any sexism, due to the fact that a lot of teachers are females.

mimartin
07-04-2007, 04:47 PM
So yes there is discrimination of boys in public schools, either deliberately or unintentionally.

http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2006-04/2006-04-13-voa4.cfm?CFID=94597771&CFTOKEN=59868471

This is not just a public school problem according to the above article. It seems that private schools are having the exact same problem. So since GarfieldJL backed a little off his stance of saying that this was deliberate, I will also back off mine in light of further investigation.

I was one of these lazy boys from elementary though high school. I did as little as possible and sometimes less than that. I was diagnosed with a learning disability and they wanted to fill with me with their magic drugs. My mother tried, but she did not have the education to help me after the 8th grade. She yelled, she spanked and later my step father beat, but I was too hard headed to listen. I managed to barely graduate on time (I was a fixture in summer school). I attended college, but dropped out when I was told my grades from high school and my financial situation would never allow me to get admission into the University of Texas. Upon my fatherís deathbed he made me promises to go back and get my degree. Four years later I graduate cum laude and then continued my education.

That is why I feel these boys are being lazy, because I was lazy and I used my disability as an excuse to justify my failures.

However after reading more on the internet I feel that the classes may need to cater more to males. Iím still not willing to go with gender separate schools, but some classrooms being gender specific may help. I also agree with the above article that more male teachers could help. Whatever both private and public schools do they must not revert back to the pre 1972 day of decimating against females. We owe it to both sexist to give them the opportunity for best education possible. It is up to the student to be willing to except it.

TK-8252
07-04-2007, 06:07 PM
You are getting "paid" by going to school though. You go there to learn, you learn, and then if you graduate you get a diploma and have the opportunity to move onto a good college. Your payment is your bigger paycheck later in life instead of being stuck in dead-end jobs with not a lot of options for career.

This is a very thoughtful analysis. Sometimes, though, people who DO go to college will STILL end up with dead-end jobs. A lot of people choose to drop out of school because they can start making money on the spot in a full-time job. It may be a dead-end job, but it may not be. Perhaps the guy dropping out to be a full-time mechanic could move on to own the shop one day.

GarfieldJL
07-04-2007, 06:57 PM
This is not just a public school problem according to the above article. It seems that private schools are having the exact same problem. So since GarfieldJL backed a little off his stance of saying that this was deliberate, I will also back off mine in light of further investigation.


Well when these reports started surfacing people started accusing them of being sexist and it was just the fact girls were finally showing their potential. So yes there is a discrimination that is there.


I was one of these lazy boys from elementary though high school. I did as little as possible and sometimes less than that. I was diagnosed with a learning disability and they wanted to fill with me with their magic drugs. My mother tried, but she did not have the education to help me after the 8th grade. She yelled, she spanked and later my step father beat, but I was too hard headed to listen. I managed to barely graduate on time (I was a fixture in summer school). I attended college, but dropped out when I was told my grades from high school and my financial situation would never allow me to get admission into the University of Texas. Upon my fatherís deathbed he made me promises to go back and get my degree. Four years later I graduate cum laude and then continued my education.


I know about what you're talking about, however part of it could have been frustration, you felt like you were going to fail anyways so why try. Granted for some it is due to laziness, but that isn't always the case. A lot of the time it is due to the fact that the kids have simply given up, which traces all the way back to 1st grade.

However, I'm glad you finally graduated.


That is why I feel these boys are being lazy, because I was lazy and I used my disability as an excuse to justify my failures.


That's a dangerous trap to fall into, however you probably felt that you couldn't succeed due to your disabilities. The fact you were given a label of a disability further eroded any hope you had, because you knew you had a disability and to you that was why you could not succeed. What kept me going after I knew I had my disabilities was to prove the [insert derogatory word here] wrong. Then there is the double standard which simon92 sums up part of the situation nicely.

It's OK in the end, because sexist discrimination by Females to Males [and racial discrimination by Black people to white people] is officially called...get this...POSITIVE DISCRIMINATION! What could be more positive than discrimination?!?!


That is actually what seems to be the attitude anymore, granted this is illegal, but it is happening. We've gone from girls and blacks from being discriminated against, to discriminating against boys and whites. That's one reason why I'm against political correctness, no I don't think it's okay to call people names, but I don't find it appropriate that it's okay to bash white boys because 20+ years ago there was discrimination against a minority.


However after reading more on the internet I feel that the classes may need to cater more to males. Iím still not willing to go with gender separate schools, but some classrooms being gender specific may help. I also agree with the above article that more male teachers could help. Whatever both private and public schools do they must not revert back to the pre 1972 day of decimating against females. We owe it to both sexist to give them the opportunity for best education possible. It is up to the student to be willing to except it.

It's sexes not sexist.

Anyways, I don't think we should go back to discriminating against girls, that's not what I'm advocating. I'm advocating that we actually get good teachers and classes be set up so that boys aren't demoralized when they start school due to failure after failure due to the teaching style and giving them assignments they are physically not ready for, because that just sets them up for failure later, cause they feel they're stupid and can't do anything right. So they just give up on school, which is why they seem to be lazy when they aren't. They are demoralized to the point they feel if they try they're just going to fail so why bother.

School needs to be challenging, but it should also be set up so they actually can succeed at the same time. Boys in particular need recess, they need gym, music, they need diversions to blow off steam. That's why I consider the education system to be sexist against boys, because if it were just laziness there would be an even number of girls failing compared to boys. Another copout by schools is to claim a boy is LD and throw him in special ed and put him on drugs because the teacher doesn't want to deal with it. I fully expect boys to be in the place of where girls were pre 1972 if something isn't done.

True_Avery
07-04-2007, 07:09 PM
This is a very thoughtful analysis. Sometimes, though, people who DO go to college will STILL end up with dead-end jobs. A lot of people choose to drop out of school because they can start making money on the spot in a full-time job. It may be a dead-end job, but it may not be. Perhaps the guy dropping out to be a full-time mechanic could move on to own the shop one day.
Very true. My uncle was a small time mechanic when he first started off. Did bad in school, didn't go to college etc. Now he owns his body shop along with partially owning a cafť.

Also I'd have to partially disagree with you on essays in high school being useful in college. It really depends what major you're in and what courses you're taking. Writing an essay on War and Peace is not a valuable learning experience for writing scientific essays. The writing style is totally different, I honestly used more of the lab report styles from my science classes than I used learning in English class.
Good point.

Seriously, I've been in this situation in second grade, with a lousy teacher. She said I was a below average student, even insulted my intelligence, some of them said I could never make it to college. I was taken to an expert whom diagnosed my learning disabilities and the school was forced to provide accommodations for me. Guess what, I made it to college I was an engineering major for 3 years before I switched, after burning myself out, taking classes with absolutely no break in between. I'm now in Computer Graphics Tech, and doing well. Now you want to tell me that my problems, and problems that other boys have is due to laziness? Cause that's what it sounds like.
Yes, I still believe it is due to laziness.

While I usually applaud first-hand experiences, your experience is only relevant to yourself and a select few others. Not everybody has learning disabilities. I was talking to my 10th grade teacher after class one day about failing students and she commented that a lot of the boys failing were not doing poorly in class. To the contrary, any assignment a lot of them turned in they got an A or a B in. They just refused to do the work, so they failed the class.

I was one of these lazy boys from elementary though high school. I did as little as possible and sometimes less than that. I was diagnosed with a learning disability and they wanted to fill with me with their magic drugs. My mother tried, but she did not have the education to help me after the 8th grade. She yelled, she spanked and later my step father beat, but I was too hard headed to listen. I managed to barely graduate on time (I was a fixture in summer school). I attended college, but dropped out when I was told my grades from high school and my financial situation would never allow me to get admission into the University of Texas. Upon my fatherís deathbed he made me promises to go back and get my degree. Four years later I graduate cum laude and then continued my education.

That is why I feel these boys are being lazy, because I was lazy and I used my disability as an excuse to justify my failures.
I believe this has been one of the best things said in the thread on this. Yes, a lot of boys are told they have learning disabilities, when a lot of the time it is not true. They then use that as an excuse to not help themselves. Maybe if we stopped telling boys they had mental disabilities they would work a little harder.

Here, let me give a little first hand experience myself:

When I was in Elementary school, I was practically uncontrollable. My emotions were terribly unstable, I would get into fights every week, and I would cry in the middle of class, I would run out of class and hide somewhere in the school, I would throw things, etc. When I reached Middle School the teachers were not ready or prepared for someone like me, so they decided to see if they could put me somewhere else.

I was put into testing to see if I had any learning disabilities. After a month of tests, they concluded that I was emotionally unstable, but they could not even chart my intelligence level. I was going to be put into a school for unstable kids (Basically a mix between Juvenile Hall and an insane asylum), but my parents found a loop-hole in the system. There was a special ed class they failed to mention at the school for kids with learning disabilities, so I was put into there.

In that class I met a bunch of odd boys, many of which I stayed with the whole 3 years. Now, I am talking learning disabilities here. Kids who were emotionally unstable, kids who could not sit still for 10 seconds without pills, kids who had been abused, kids who were suicidal, etc. We still went to normal classes, but sometimes our teacher would teach us the subjects herself with the other aids in her class. We learned at our own pace, and if we did all our work during the week we got free-time on Friday to let off some steam and play games with everybody.

I will repeat this: Kids with actual disabilities, both mental and physical.

When we were put into normal classes we did the same work they did. Some of us did better than the other kids, some did worse. But, some of us used our disabilities to our advantage at times... but, we never got far because our teacher always knew when we were doing it. A lot of us were really very intelligent, some -far- smarter than those in normal classes.

We had a kid that would sit in class all day and rock back and forth, mumbling to himself and giggling about words. We would talk to him, and he would sometimes answer, sometimes mumble our words back. But, if you put a puzzle in front of him, from word to physical, he could figure it out in seconds. If you put a worksheet in front of him, he would pass every single one. If you asked him any random question you could think of, he most likely knew it. He passed all his classes with A's even though he had mental problems stacked on top of mental problems.

Yes, a lot of our problems were catered too. A lot of our work was catered to. We were helped a lot in ways I wish all classes could be helped, but we actually had the right to say we had actual problems.

ADHD, ADD... many kids -claim- to have these because they are -lazy-. I have seen real ADD and real ADHD. If you can stare at a video game for 8 hours, you do not have either. Claiming that all boys have a hard time concentrating is bull to the extreme, because you are putting a mental disorder on them that does not apply to them. They use that disorder as a pillow to fall on when things get "hard" for them. If we could go into a normal class and pass, then the other boys in the class who talked all day, who messed around, who said everyday "Meh, I didn't do the homework", who mouthed off to the teacher deserved every single F, D, and C they ever got.

I will repeat: If you can sit down, not move, and play video games for 8 hours then you have the capability of sitting down and doing an assignment. The only difference is that you want to do one, and hate the other. Kids who truly cannot concentrate will sit down for 5 minutes, try to do the work or play, and then need to do a few laps around the class/building to burn off steam. They need pills to make sure that any food they digest does not make them hyper as hell. They are restless. As far as I have seen, people in normal classes sit down, still, and watch the teacher, yet still refuse to turn in work. The most moving they do is talking to their partner, ignoring what the teacher says.

So, your problem was your disability. And... you relate to other boys... how? The fact you overcame it and did your work, graduated, and are now doing fine in life is proof that a disability does not disable you in school, but hinders you. If you could do that, than normal boys should be able to breeze right through school. Some boys actually sit down, do the work, and pass. But the majority of those who fail are the ones not doing work, not listening, and coming to school for the soul fact they like to talk to people.

The special ed copout does not work on me, and if anything it simply proves that normal people have the same potential, if not more, to pass a class.

Well when these reports started surfacing people started accusing them of being sexist and it was just the fact girls were finally showing their potential. So yes there is a discrimination that is there.
If only some of the boys would actually try and show that same potential instead of falling behind false mental disorders.

Anyways, I don't think we should go back to discriminating against girls, that's not what I'm advocating. I'm advocating that we actually get good teachers and classes be set up so that boys aren't demoralized when they start school due to failure after failure due to the teaching style and giving them assignments they are physically not ready for, because that just sets them up for failure later, cause they feel they're stupid and can't do anything right. So they just give up on school, which is why they seem to be lazy when they aren't. They are demoralized to the point they feel if they try they're just going to fail so why bother.
If we were all physicially ready to do the work in middle school and pass the classes, then the boys in Middle School/High School have absolutely no right to say they are being discriminated against. They simply refuse to do the work, and then they lay on the pillow you are giving them to justify their failures.

School needs to be challenging, but it should also be set up so they actually can succeed at the same time. Boys in particular need recess, they need gym, music, they need diversions to blow off steam. That's why I consider the education system to be sexist against boys, because if it were just laziness there would be an even number of girls failing compared to boys. Another copout by schools is to claim a boy is LD and throw him in special ed and put him on drugs because the teacher doesn't want to deal with it. I fully expect boys to be in the place of where girls were pre 1972 if something isn't done.
My school had PE for an hour and a half every day in a 4 block schedule school. Boys would go to PE, come to class 5 minutes later, and guess what they would do? Talk, tell the teacher the didn't do the homework, and then ignore him for the rest of class and do the classwork below standards. If they cannot work right after PE, then they are lazy. Not pumped full of every. Boys do not need 80% of their school day meant to stimulate them. This is learning, this is a job. This is not their personal play time to have fun and let off energy so that they can sit down and play video games all day after school right after refusing to do anything in class.

School needs to be challenging
If school are so damn easy, then why do kids keep failing! If it is that easy to do the work, then even the boys should have no problem in doing it. Simply saying the system sucks and is not teaching you anything does not pass you the class.

GarfieldJL
07-04-2007, 07:35 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/books/reviews/waragainstboys0703.htm

http://www.dest.gov.au/sectors/school_education/policy_initiatives_reviews/key_issues/boys_education/boys_education_research_and_websites.htm

Explain to me what the Australian Government's Department of Education feel there is a problem then? Boys are starting to be over diagnosed for learning disabilities even if they don't have them. While I don't agree with everything in the washington post article I do agree with a lot of it.

Also it isn't laziness, cause I've seen the effects on my younger cousin, he's had problems and has been on the verge of giving up. Calling himself stupid and trying to act stupid because he thinks he can't succeed. He goes to a private school btw, I don't think he has that problem now, but he did a few years ago. I also know my cousin isn't lazy, so if I find it highly insulting that you're implying that all of this is due to laziness, and that boys are lazier than girls.

Also True_Avery are you implying boys are not as smart as girls? Seriously, trying to teach a kid to write well in cursive when their fine motor skills aren't developed enough yet isn't a challenge it is unrealistic and setting them up to fail. Fine Motor skills develop when they develop. Some boys develop fine motor skills faster than the norm but generally there is a difference of 18 months and no amount of practice is going to make a damn bit of difference. I've made it my business to know about my disabilities and I know quite a bit from first hand experiences and the stupidity of some educators that tried to keep having me practice handwriting when it was something I physically wasn't able to do! It was frustrating as all getout and I made little to no progress. My mother finally said she would take bring this before the State Board of Education, if they didn't provide me the accomidations that I was supposed to be able to have by law.

I think I damn well know how fine motor skills develop thank you, I can type 30-60 words a minute thank you, and still have problems signing my own name in cursive. I think I would know from first hand experience how effective trying to teach someone something they physically cannot do yet!

Considering I've experienced this first hand, I've had to fight my way through the education system since 2nd grade with people saying I couldn't do achieve anything. I think I know quite abit about the subject, and to imply that I don't is quite frankly insulting.

Here is some more articles:
http://www.friesian.com/sommers.htm
http://www.feminist.org/education/
http://www.nationalreview.com/kob/obeirne200512060815.asp


Also here is a report concerning feminists trying to block things to try to help boys.
http://www.ifsi.org/resources/pdfs/publicationsArticles/04-26-06-USAtoday.pdf

Also here is a lawsuit:
http://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/?article=700

Something from New Zealand:
http://nzmera.orcon.net.nz/8edulies.html

Proof that feminists are denying the problem:
http://www.feminist.org/news/newsbyte/uswirestory.asp?id=9729

City Journal Article:
http://www.city-journal.org/html/16_3_schools_boys.html


And I'm still finding more stuff, do you still say I don't know what I'm talking about?

mimartin
07-04-2007, 07:49 PM
however part of it could have been frustration, you felt like you were going to fail anyways so why try. Granted for some it is due to laziness, but that isn't always the case. However, I'm glad you finally graduated.

No, in my case it was 100% laziness. There was always something else I rather be doing than my school work.

It's sexes not sexist.

And you are really close to figuring out my learning disability.

I'm advocating that we actually get good teachers and classes be set up so that boys aren't demoralized when they start school due to failure after failure due to the teaching style and giving them assignments they are physically not ready for, because that just sets them up for failure later, cause they feel they're stupid and can't do anything right. So they just give up on school, which is why they seem to be lazy when they aren't. They are demoralized to the point they feel if they try they're just going to fail so why bother.

First off there are a lot of good teachers out there. I have family members and very good friends that are teachers. These people work hard with very little thanks or money. They have to suffer with parents, media and studentsí unfounded remarks and accusations. I canít count how many times Iíve had my teacher friends take their frustrations out on me after a parent teacher conference. Like Jae wrote:

They also don't accept the fact that little Johnny and Suzy aren't perfect, and aren't always going to do the work well. They expect their kids to get perfect grades without any work, and they are doing their kids no favors by not being active participants in their children's education.

While I now agree that something needs to be done about our education system to help both genders exceed. I will not make a blanket statement blaming all teachers for the systems failings, no more than I will say it is the American Soldiers fault for our problems in Iraq. There are bad teachers, but most are very good at their job and have just become disillusioned with the reasons they became teachers in the first place. The ones I know care more about the students than the do themselves. They want their students to succeed and become productive members of society. They are not in any way hindering the studentís development because of the sex of the student.

My plan starts with these:

1st Iíd ask the teachers what needs to be done. They are on the front lines and know more than any elected official or us what is needed to solve this problem.

2nd Iíd recruit more male teachers and set up more same sex classes.

3rd Iíd set up more interactive assignments. I would not waste precious time having more recess, but set up activities that can teach while keeping the male mind involved. They seem to like computers and games how about combining that with education?

4th I would revert a little to the pre 1972 days. Reinstate competition into young peopleís activities. There are winners and losers in life. Education should be teaching our children to solve problems and cope with what life throws at us. Teach them the importance of hard work in competing in life and how losing is not the end of the world.

5th Explain to the students why are they are taking a particular subject. I hated math past a certain point. The schools only wanted me to know how to do it. They did not care to explain the reasons behind it even when I asked. I did not learn the importance of trigonometry, geometry or algebra until I was in the real world. Children are way more intelligent then many grown up give them credit for and can understand if we take the time to explain and answer their questions.

My Ĺ cents worth.

GarfieldJL
07-04-2007, 07:58 PM
mimartin the problem is that as things are boys will continue to be shortchanged and girls will get more opportunites because according to the femanist movement masculinity is bad.

See all the articles I've dragged up, there is a huge problem in the education system but it is tailored to fit girls at the expense of boys as well.


Christina Hoff Sommers was absolutely accurate in describing, in her 2000 bestseller, The War Against Boys, how feminist complaints that girls were ďlosing their voiceĒ in a male-oriented classroom have prompted the educational establishment to turn the schools upside down to make them more girl-friendly, to the detriment of males.


http://www.city-journal.org/html/16_3_schools_boys.html


mimartin if you say in your case it was laziness fine, I'm not going to argue about your problems in school. Though I personally feel there was more to it than that, based on firsthand experience.


As Sommers understood, it is boysí aggressive and rationalist natureóredefined by educators as a behavioral disorderóthatís getting so many of them in trouble in the feminized schools. Their problem: they donít want to be girls.



Does that give people an idea of the situation. I'm going to keep pulling out articles for you guys to read.

Oh another article:
http://www.i2i.org/main/article.php?article_id=129

mimartin
07-04-2007, 09:05 PM
mimartin the problem is that as things are boys will continue to be shortchanged and girls will get more opportunites because according to the femanist movement masculinity is bad.

And between your articles and my own research Iíve agreed there is a problem as far as I am concerned. Personally I am appalled by the graduation and drop out rates for both male and female students.

You will never get me to assign guilt. I donít believe there is one cause to this problem the system, parents, students, administrators, school boards, principles, legislators and teachers have all failed as far as I can tell. There is no one problem so there can be no one solution.

mimartin if you say in your case it was laziness fine, I'm not going to argue about your problems in school. Though I personally feel there was more to it than that, based on firsthand experience.

Youíd be correct to a certain extent, but it is not what you think it had nothing to do with a disability. It has more to do with me being bull headed in my youth. Trust me in my case it was laziness, but Iíve unfortunately gotten over it.

@True_Avery: Very well said.

If school are so damn easy, then why do kids keep failing.
I donít know about elementary school through high school any more, but I do know college is way to easy now days. When I first attended 70 was passing, but with a D that would not transfer or count toward you major. When I went back 60 was passing and anything over a 65 would transfer and count towards your major. I havenít received a grade lower than a B while collecting my two degrees and that includes a Masters level sociology class that I never took the text book out of it wrapper (in fairness I did attend every class and took good notes). At the time I felt we were given grades for our tuition, but since the drop out and failure rate was pretty high I doubt that was the case. I also did really well on the GMAT and passed my securities exams without studying so college taught me something. I just know Iím not intelligent enough to get the grades I received.

This tread has actually gotten me to thinking of returning to that liberal bastion of knowledge known as college. Iím actually giddy with the possibility of either getting my teaching certificate or my doctorate. I wonder if the local community college or high school could use an accounting, economics or finance teacher. Of course Iím not going to give up my day job; I donít think I could survive on a teacherís salary.

@GarfieldJL the ďliberal bastion of knowledgeĒ is a joke please donít take everything I write seriously.

GarfieldJL
07-04-2007, 09:19 PM
http://www.focusonthefamily.com/docstudy/newsletters/A000000370.cfm

Here is another link, mimartin I'm going to have to say in this teachers and schools have are mostly to blame. Generally parents do not know laws as well as lawyers and those whom routinely help parents with their child's IEP. That's the reason my mom was able to get me the help I needed, she knew the laws.

Ages 5-8 are critical in development, if you're self esteem has been steamrolled by failure after failure when you're at that age, odds are you'll fail from then on. It has nothing to do with laziness, and everything to do with being demoralized.

mimartin
07-04-2007, 10:12 PM
http://www.focusonthefamily.com/docstudy/newsletters/A000000370.cfm


I know all about James Dobson, Ph.D. and an article by Bill O'Riley would have a better chance of convincing me differently than my current option. At least Bill has a sense of humor that I find amusing. Sorry but I donít mind an opposing view, but I hate intolerance in any form. It is predictable that Dr. Dobson would blame the so called ďliberal teachers.Ē That said I applauded Dr. Dobson and his family for their views and practice of those views on adoption.

The teachers do not set the curriculum, the teachers do not set the schedule and the teachers do not buy the books. These are all done or approved by the school board and the administrator Even if one teacher is bad it is the responsibility of the administrator or principle to hire and/or fire the teacher. I donít want to hear about tenure, because a bad teacher should be weeded out long before tenure becomes an obstacle.

Face it teacher are not there for the money they care about the students welfare more than most of us. Policeman and fireman also have a selfless job, but there is also a thrill at times to those occupations. Teacher only thrill comes from the knowledge that they helped a young mind succeed. As I said before you are not going to convince me other wise. Teachers and Soldiers are two occupations that I truly respect.

Ages 5-8 are critical in development, if you're self esteem has been steamrolled by failure after failure when you're at that age, odds are you'll fail from then on. It has nothing to do with laziness, and everything to do with being demoralized.

Sorry, Iím old school. I was taught what doesnít kill you makes you stronger. If this was true in my case Iíd be living on the streets now. Children need to be taught when they fail to brush themselves off and try again. According to some of the articles youíve posted one of the problems is the lack of completion in the class room. It stated that the feminism of the classroom got rid of the competition. The article stated that males need competition, but in competition there are winners and losers. To me this is another crutch and excuse for future failures. The children should be made to understand failure is a part of life and from failure comes success. If they are being demoralized from losing then someone needs to work with that child or may be they are being abused in other ways. If the teacher is verbally abusing them to the point they are demoralized then he/she should be fired and charged with a crime.

Feel good you convinced me that there is more there than laziness. We will just disagree on the cause, although Iíve admitted that I believe some teachers are a small part of the overall problem. Iíd still put parents far ahead of teachers, but I really believe it is more of a system failure. Fair enough?

Darth InSidious
07-05-2007, 11:14 AM
mimartin, as another person with a "disability" (I put the word in inverted commas quite intentionally - there is nothing wrong with us. We are different, and the system and society can't handle that we think differently, that we can see where they can't, even if that means we can't see where they can, but this is a different discussion for a different thread...), I know how tempting it is to think that you are hiding behind the disability.

And sometimes it's true, but a lot of the time, the reason I avoided work at school was because I couldn't actually work out the process, I didn't know how to do it. I can't speak for you, but I'd be surprised if you didn't at least on occasion experience this?

I was also too proud in some respects to go for help, which frankly wasn't helpful. Spider diagrams were largely useless, and it was easiest just to start writing.

@Avery: My writing is still illegible, and at school, for me to write an essay legibly would take a very long time, and it was painful. What this meant was that teachers got a messy, often smudged piece of incoherent work that didn't fully explore the ideas touched upon. It's disheartening, and makes you lose faith in your own academic ability. And losing faith in yourself at school is one sure-fire way to fail.

GarfieldJL
07-05-2007, 03:25 PM
mimartin, as another person with a "disability" (I put the word in inverted commas quite intentionally - there is nothing wrong with us. We are different, and the system and society can't handle that we think differently, that we can see where they can't, even if that means we can't see where they can, but this is a different discussion for a different thread...), I know how tempting it is to think that you are hiding behind the disability.


I'd agree with it being for a seperate discussion for a seperate thread, except that many boys without disabilities have been labeled as having behavioral problems or being LD, because of the fact the teaching style is so grossly mismatched with a normal boy's learning style that they can't compete. The doctor whom first diagnosed me is a specialist in Attention Deficit Disorder, and Learning Disabilities, that's all he does now, he gave up his well baby practice to focus on this area. He goes to conferences rountinely on the subject, and he's commented before that ADHD is routinely over-diagnosed. So schools can dope up young boys on medications like ritalin (which is a high powered stimulent, can be extremely addictive, and is can even kill you if you are given too much in a doseage) and throw them in special education so they don't have to deal with them. So this isn't an issue for a different thread, I wish it were, but unfortunately it isn't.


@Avery: My writing is still illegible, and at school, for me to write an essay legibly would take a very long time, and it was painful. What this meant was that teachers got a messy, often smudged piece of incoherent work that didn't fully explore the ideas touched upon. It's disheartening, and makes you lose faith in your own academic ability. And losing faith in yourself at school is one sure-fire way to fail.

Ditto for me too, and my mother finally had to threaten to take the school to the state board of education for them to provide me the accomidations required by Federal Law.

So it isn't about laziness, it is about being demoralized and elementry is a critical time period for kids.

mimartin
07-05-2007, 05:19 PM
And sometimes it's true, but a lot of the time, the reason I avoided work at school was because I couldn't actually work out the process, I didn't know how to do it. I can't speak for you, but I'd be surprised if you didn't at least on occasion experience this?

I have no way of knowing how hard it is for someone else to solve a problem or do their work. I just know the other students made it look so simple compared to me. Iíve never had a problem solving the problem or reading the assignment. My problem caused me to be an extremely slow reader. I have no clue to what others see when they read but the page seemed to become jumbled the longer I stared at it. If I concentrate I can get through reading and even understand what Iíve read. I also have problems writing as I can barely spell my own name (that is not an over exaggeration in elementary school I reversed the a and e consistently). Again if I really concentrated on what I was doing I could become a slightly below average speller.

So as proven in my college years when I made the grade most of my problems were caused by me not wanting to give the work the level of effort that was require. So I was lazy.

So it isn't about laziness, it is about being demoralized and elementary is a critical time period for kids.

I agree that this is not ALL about laziness, but laziness is a factor in the number of students we are talking about. Some have real disabilities and it has nothing to do with laziness, but others like me can overcome their problem with a little extra effort.

Iím not saying everyone is lazy, I am saying that is highly doubtful that I am the only one that used my disability to get out of work.

I also agree that elementary school is an important time in childrenís lives, but so is the time before they reach school age and the time after elementary school.

GarfieldJL
07-08-2007, 12:23 PM
Okay mimartin, Darth InSidious is talking about something more than laziness.

@Avery: My writing is still illegible, and at school, for me to write an essay legibly would take a very long time, and it was painful. What this meant was that teachers got a messy, often smudged piece of incoherent work that didn't fully explore the ideas touched upon. It's disheartening, and makes you lose faith in your own academic ability. And losing faith in yourself at school is one sure-fire way to fail.


What Darth InSidious is talking about is that trying to write neatly for prolonged periods caused him physical pain. I know it may sound silly, but it can and does happen, particularly to people with dysgraphia. The nerves in their hands have a hard time feeling the writing utensil in a manner that they feel they have a good grip on it. Thus in order to feel like they have a grip on the utensil they end up gripping it harder than someone without dysgraphia would this tires out their hand quickly and causes physical pain when they try to write for prolonged periods. I'm going to hazard a guess and say it sounds like InSidious also has fine motor problems as well.

Unlike playing a sport, practice doesn't make it better to any appreciable degree. Schools however instead of providing accomidations will keep trying to get the individual to do things how everyone else does, which to someone with this physical disability its like beating your head against a brick wall. Not very many parents have heard of dysgraphia, the only reason my mom heard about it is because she worked with children with special needs and taught people how to be a speech pathologist, she also once worked at Texas Children's Hospital. So she knew about all of this, most parents wouldn't know about it and schools have no particular interest in enlightening the parents of the student preferring instead to try to get the student to conform to how everyone else is doing things or throwing them in special education. So the blame must be thrown entirely on the schools on this issue.

Schools have no incentive to inform parents about things that would cost the school money to provide the accomidation they'll even withhold the information from the parent, prefering to label the student a behavior problem instead.

Back to topic, the way "standardized" education is currently laid out, it is discriminatory towards boys. While I'm sure girls don't enjoy doing worksheets all day either, but they are much better at coping with that style of teaching. I'm going to suggest the following.

1. Recess be brought back to school, no fewer than 3 recesses a day for elementry. 1 recess for Middle School.

2. There needs to be more experiments, like building something that an egg can survive in being dropped from 2 stories up.

3. Teachers need to make a conscious effort of including boys in in-class discussions and talk louder so it isn't like elevator music to boys. (I'm not saying ignore girls, I'm saying that boys need to be included as well).

4. For book reports if you want to have a book like Memoirs of Geisha, make sure you have an alternative book for boys that they'd find interesting. Or use a book that both genders would enjoy.

Anyone else have anything to add?