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True_Avery
07-03-2007, 03:06 AM
A topic was brought to my attention in the Sexist Education System (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=180095) thread that may be off topic, so I have brought it here.

So, is fashion hurting our school system? Is the freedom for people to wear what they want being abused with low cut tops, short skirts, tight pants/shirts, and brand-name clothing?

This could easily turn into a full on debate on society and fashion, so here is the main topic:

Do you think we should make School Uniforms mandatory? Respectable suits for both boys and girls in all public and private schools.

Personally, I vote yes. I'm tired of seeing wana-bee guys wearing their pants low, and tired of seeing girls running around with short skirts and low cut tops. You can express yourself, but coming to school as a fashion statement is not what I want in education.

TK-8252
07-03-2007, 03:20 AM
I'd probably not go to school if there were forced school uniforms and not a waver. Sorry but if I am wearing a uniform, it's because I'm at work, and being paid to do so. When you consider that our schools suck and don't teach anything, I'd say I just go to school for the social experience, and to eventually get a diploma that means nothing other than you won't be seen as completely worthless by society. I don't go to school for education whatsoever. There are much better ways to be an educated person than go to school. Just make it a habit to watch the History Channel and you'll know all kinds of things they never teach in school, or try to teach but never teach it very well.

Emperor Devon
07-03-2007, 04:06 AM
Seems like a pretty frivolous thing to bother with IMO when the actual education kids are getting is the bigger issue. (Though not quite as much as TK makes out, I don't think :p)

There's also the inconveniences it could cause to consider. The money to make the uniforms will have to come from somewhere, and it'll be a hassle (and financial expense depending if you look at the long term) on the part of the student's families to clean their uniforms every night.

Still, it could be useful in some cases. If the kids are dressing like sluts, wearing clothing that makes offensive statements, under-dressing, (going to a public place in PJs is NOT acceptable) the kids are lacking in discipline, or if the clothes they're wearing is causing enough trouble for the school's administration, then I think they'd be a good thing. A uniform dress code does actually have some subtle psychological effects, and IMO leads to a more formal and orderly feeling in the school.

If the school isn't suffering from any of those, though, I don't see the need.

And of course there's the benefit of the particularly rebellious/humorous kids who'll try to bend the dress code rules. My dad knew someone who showed up for (a uniform-requiring) school with tie that was fifteen feet long or so, which technically didn't break the rules and was a funny sight to see. Stuff like that gives them funny stories to tell their own children. :p

igyman
07-03-2007, 05:58 AM
I think school uniforms are one of the stupidest things invented by man. Although the main purpose of school is to teach, it has other important purposes, like enticing diversity, making friends, practicing your social skills, learning about tolerance and even having some fun. School uniforms, IMO, will make students less tolerant towards their friends who go to schools who don't have that kind of dress code.
It's like with the sports club fans - you think your club is the best, you hate all the competition and if someone from your group decides to says something in favor of the other group (even if it's a completely reasonable statement), the person loses respect and a heated argument starts immediately. I don't think school should be about that.

True_Avery
07-03-2007, 07:23 AM
It's like with the sports club fans - you think your club is the best, you hate all the competition and if someone from your group decides to says something in favor of the other group (even if it's a completely reasonable statement), the person loses respect and a heated argument starts immediately. I don't think school should be about that.
Is that not kind of what clothes themselves do? You express yourself, but you end up wearing your pants way too low, show way too much cleavage for your age, and generally compete with other people for how good you look. Understandable how school is also a social gathering, but turning school into a fashion show I think distracts from the educational environment.

Can you not still talk, have fun, laugh, and hate each other while wearing a uniform? School, in my opinion, is a job. At many jobs, you have a uniform you wear. It does not take away who you are, but reminds you that you are here to do your job and not show off.

And how exactly does it make you less tolerant? If you are wearing the same thing, then there is little debate on how rich you are, how much money you spend on clothes, how willing you are to look good, etc. Would the lack of fashion competition give you -more- insight into who a person actually is as a person and not what they wear?

I see kids classed as geeks, bros, gangsters, nerds, etc all the time simply on how they dress. Since school is largely a social gathering and this labeling happens very often on how people choose to dress. Girls most of all compete with eachother for looks and is, in my opinion, the female gender's greatest fault. Labeling will still happen, but if you are wearing the same thing as someone else does that not give a little more space to find out who they are as a person instead of jumping to conclusions about them from the start?

Dress yourself and express yourself through clothing on your own free time. As I said, I consider school a job or close to it... thus, not your free time.

Although, that could bring up a problem with kids dressing on their free time even worse then they are now as a show of rebellion.

Seems like a pretty frivolous thing to bother with IMO when the actual education kids are getting is the bigger issue. (Though not quite as much as TK makes out, I don't think )
Correct, but isn't the environment you learn in just as important as the learning itself?

There's also the inconveniences it could cause to consider. The money to make the uniforms will have to come from somewhere, and it'll be a hassle (and financial expense depending if you look at the long term) on the part of the student's families to clean their uniforms every night.
Point, but if each student had a few suits then cleaning may not be that hard. But, financial things could still get in the way. Uniforms would indeed cost money to either the school, or to the parents depending if you buy them or they are given to you.


If the school isn't suffering from any of those, though, I don't see the need.
Hmm, depends on the point of view. Some would say it is no problem, other would say it could be a problem in all public schools. Self-expression is important, but I am yet to see a school that allows a loose dress code to not have over half the kids abusing it.

And of course there's the benefit of the particularly rebellious/humorous kids who'll try to bend the dress code rules. My dad knew someone who showed up for (a uniform-requiring) school with tie that was fifteen feet long or so, which technically didn't break the rules and was a funny sight to see. Stuff like that gives them funny stories to tell their own children.
Agreed, people would still try for their own individual look. But, what would you rather have: A girl wearing a high skirt and low shirt, or being a rebel and making her uniform look a little different?

Dagobahn Eagle
07-03-2007, 09:57 AM
Do you think we should make School Uniforms mandatory? Respectable suits for both boys and girls in all public and private schools.Nope. Sure, regulate the extreme cases, like kids showing up in their jammies, but everyone dressing the same? No way.

When you think about it, isn't it cowardly to enforce school uniforms on the basis that kids might be bullied or singled out? Is it not akin to saying that you don't want gay adoption because you fear the kids will be bullied? I certainly feel so. Making decisions based on bullying gives power to the wrong people. You're essentially saying that decision x should be avoided because the bullies don't like it. Not a good way to run a school, putting the bullies in control of what's allowed and what isn't. If there's a bullying problem, stomp it the Hell out. If students are teased or frozen out for not wearing fashion, deal with it.

And either way, no matter how much you dress the kids similarly, they sure as Heck won't wear their uniforms outside of school. Instead of facing the problem where you can at least try to handle it with faculty, you move it to outside of the school's bounds, where it's out of control.

mjpb3
07-03-2007, 10:19 AM
As the mother of a 9 year old son who DOES have to wear a uniform to school everyday when school is in session, I can honestly say that I hate them... BUT! I can also totally understand why uniforms are a regulation in the school system where my son goes to school. Some of these kids around where we live would look even worse than they do if allowed to wear their own clothing.

Uniforms are ugly, uninspired and don't let my son "be himself" fashion-wise, but I'd much rather him have to wear them like the other kids just for the simple fact that I would hate to see how the kids around here would dress if left to their own devices. :rolleyes:

I'd much rather my son be able to wear bluejeans and a tee-shirt to school, but not everyone would have their child dressed as well as mine is (or would be), so even though I can't stand uniforms, I can understand why they are a school system rule around here...

And as to the myth that "uniforms let the children dress alike so that noone is seen differently"... well, as I wrote, it's a myth. *shrug* Even having to wear uniforms the kids around here make "fashion statements" by wearing "mall clothes" as opposed to uniforms sold at Wal-Mart or other stores. Plus, what the kids around here can't "get away with" by wearing uniforms, they more than make up for by having their parents by them outrageously expensive (and ugly) school accessories: like backpacks, purses, wallets, bookbags, hair accessories, notebooks, folders, etc... so even wearing uniforms, some kids are still singled out as "being different" so what's the point?

Eh, I guess I am just ambivalent towards uniforms so I voted DON'T CARE *shrug*

Sabretooth
07-03-2007, 11:06 AM
I once remember a debate on TV between two high-end schools, debating on whether a uniform should be mandatory. Just for the record, uniforms are mandatory in like 90% of Indian schools. So, the "for" group said that it builds unity and equality. The "against" group said that it suppresses creativity and yada yada.

Here my dad makes an interesting statement. What is important is, to see why uniforms were instituted in the first place. Uniforms were derived from the military, where they are useful for recognition and status. If you find a wounded soldier, for example, you know where he's from and who he is. Similarly in a school, if a kid runs off on his own, people will know he is from a school and report accordingly. So the idea is, that uniforms are not used for hypothetical and theoretical purposes, but more for practical uses. (You get the drift)

I am definitely with the "for" group. Uniforms are good, because that way you can't differentiate a higher class from a lower class. You don't need to buy the latest fashion accessories. You can't boast of your new shiny clothes. You go to school to study, to learn - not to show off your awesome clothes.

Uniforms also show what school you are from, and more importantly, that you go to a school (which can be a bit of a bother with the lower classes here). So overall, I'm for the uniform, though I'm not sure what the American Scenario is. :xp:

Pavlos
07-03-2007, 11:26 AM
The idea behind school uniforms in a modern society is to eliminate individuality but not in some totalitarian, dictatorial manner, you understand. By making sure everyone wears the same clothes, social classes and cultural differences disappear. It is especially important that, at a young age, children are not made to feel inferior because they cannot afford the latest trend in jeans, or some such. The mindset of most young children is that "If it is different - it's bad. Let's ridicule it!" Thus, by removing marks of the multicultural society the UK is today, segregation is - at the very least - lessened.

So, I'm in the for camp. But, I suppose, at later ages it doesn't matter so much. At least in my school, people couldn't care less what you wear - or at least don't comment on it... maybe I live in a bubble.

JoeDoe 2.0
07-03-2007, 11:48 AM
Depends on the school uniform, if its like a suit and tie, maybe I'll wear it, and if the girls have to wear mini-skirts, then it should be mandatory :naughty:

But streets clothes is fine with me

Darth InSidious
07-03-2007, 12:17 PM
Yes.

Why?

Because I've seen what happens in classrooms without real punishments and without uniforms. It helps to enforce the rules, to be quite honest.

Totenkopf
07-03-2007, 01:20 PM
Kids are a lot less likely to beat up a classmate for his $150 pair of fancy "sneakers" if he has to where "dress shoes" to school. I think that where school uniforms have been (re?)introduced, there's been less disruption afterward. I understand the desire to be able to go school/work dressed down. I had a job where we could go to work in jeans, t-shirts and sneakers.....but that ended when some jack@ass came to work in sweats and slippers and a big exec panjundrum was passing through the office, only to find out that the liberalized dress code he originally opposed was being abused. He naturally killed it and everybody had to go back to business casual. What a bummer to come off of short term for a job I originally took B/C I could dress down and listen to a discman while working. There was talk of losing the discman privelages before I left as well. Work sucks, ces't le vie. As for school, had to go to hs in dress clothes and a tie (no jacket, though), didn't kill me. Oh, and no girls either, just the rare hawt teaching assistant (TA--insert your own joke here).

Jae Onasi
07-03-2007, 01:29 PM
In the schools in the Chicago public school system (CPS) and in the school system in the town I live in that have school uniforms, the grades of the students have gone up and the discipline problems have gone down. If simply going to uniforms improves grades, then I'm all for it.

In some parts of the CPS the uniforms were actually instituted for the student's safety--kids were getting beaten up and _killed_ for their clothing (fancy Nikes and Starter jackets chiefly). Going to uniforms in those parts of the city cut down on theft and assault.

In the Chicago suburbs, the high schools had to go to a dress code that mandated no sleeveless or low-cut shirts or bare midriffs for the girls--the boys (and I imagine some other girls) were just too distracted by the amount of female skin showing, and it was hard for them to concentrate on their studies. School uniforms are far more modest than a lot of the frankly slutty clothing being sold in the malls to girls these days.

It also stops 'freedom of speech' issues with obscene comments on t-shirts. If no one's allowed to wear t-shirts with any comments, then there are no free-speech legal entanglements for the schools. I'd rather have my school system spending dollars on the students, rather than on lawyers to fight some idiotic free-speech lawsuit brought on by someone looking to earn a fast buck for a perceived 'injustice' because they can't have the f-bomb on a t-shirt.

Emperor Devon--we parents would have to buy and wash clothes regardless of what the kids wore--uniforms or regular clothing, so that's irrelevant. In fact, uniforms are built sturdier, so they last longer than some regular clothes, and they are priced generally as fair as, if not less than, a lot of other clothing.

MdKnightR
07-03-2007, 02:16 PM
I'd probably not go to school if there were forced school uniforms and not a waver. Sorry but if I am wearing a uniform, it's because I'm at work, and being paid to do so. When you consider that our schools suck and don't teach anything, I'd say I just go to school for the social experience, and to eventually get a diploma that means nothing other than you won't be seen as completely worthless by society. I don't go to school for education whatsoever. There are much better ways to be an educated person than go to school. Just make it a habit to watch the History Channel and you'll know all kinds of things they never teach in school, or try to teach but never teach it very well.

This is quite possibly one of the best arguments for them! It is attitudes like this that are why our schools are failing. It isn't because an inability to teach, but a refusal to learn.

As a teacher, I can honestly say...YES to school uniforms. Many of the schools in our county have begun the transition to it and have had positive results.

Uniforms level the playing field in schools. Students will still socialize, have friends, and be diverse. Clothing is but one small facet in the lives of youngsters. It has been given too much importance over the years. But the point of school is to learn, not to socialize.

Also,there really isn't much true "individuality" in public schools. Any student who doesn't believe that they are already wearing "uniforms" is blind to what is going on around them. There is a gangsta/ghetto uniform - droopy pants and oversize shirts. There is a goth/metalhead uniform - anything black and chrome. There is a slut uniform - tight low-cut jeans and tops that look like something out of the local strip club. All that school mandated uniforms do is unify the uniforms and open up the possibility for interaction between groups who normally wouldn't associate because of fashion-based prejudice.

The argument that uniforms are pricey is ridiculous! The way they do it here, the parents are notified of what is acceptable school dress (and there are some options) and local businesses are kept informed about them so as to have plenty in stock. The cost of the khaki pants and polo shirts are WAY less than what parents pay for name brand clothing. It is actually on par with the generic clothing that wiser parents purchase for their children anyway.

Any way you slice it, uniforms are a great idea that has been a long time coming. However, I will admit that I did not like the idea of school uniforms when I was a teenager either. But, even though teens think they are mature enough to know what is best for them, they are still children....at least until they reach 18 in the eyes of the law. Children need guidance and should not be allowed to rule the roost.

igyman
07-03-2007, 04:40 PM
If simply going to uniforms improves grades, then I'm all for it.

I think it's foolish to believe that a student's grades will improve by simply making them wear a uniform. The more likely reason, Jae, for the reduction in discipline problems and improvement in grades is that the schools you are referring to have a strict code of conduct. Most schools with mandatory uniforms do, as they are considered to be the ''elite'' schools.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for higher grades, higher grades mean smarter people with more potential. I just don't think uniforms are the way to go, the downsides are simply too many to count.

Now, as for regular clothes, there should be some sort of ''in school'' dress code, but simply to eliminate those clothes that are considered improper while at school. In my high school, we had teachers who wouldn't allow guys (boys :D) who are wearing shorts to attend their classes, an example is my high school sociology professor (who was also the deputy principal, if that's the correct English term). She kicked out a few of my friends out, just for wearing shorts, which I can understand to a point, but then she decided to kick out a friend of mine who was wearing a perfectly decent pair of ''clam diggers'' (took me a while to find the correct English term :D).
The point of this example is - do not exaggerate. A moderate dress code is a lot better than uniforms and it will have the same effect on discipline. My high school was (as I am now in college) the living proof of this, since 90% of the students knew what not to wear and how not to act while they're at school. There were, of course, those occasional pranks and name calling that happens everywhere, but I think that's normal.

mimartin
07-03-2007, 04:43 PM
Iím a no vote. I believe in a dress code to prevent inappropriate dress, but Iím not for willing to endorse anything further than that.

I can see the other side and understand how a uniform is the easiest solution. By making it a uniform it takes away chance of possible decimation of the teacher/principle on determining what meets and does not meet the code. Personally I would not want to wear a uniform in a classroom and just can not bring myself to saying someone else should. Hate to say it again, but parents should be making sure their children are taught how to dress appropriately and this should not be even an issue for the schools.

GarfieldJL
07-03-2007, 05:23 PM
When I was in high school we didn't have a uniform policy just a dress code and everything was fine. There needs to be some regulations, but a uniform is just silly in my opinion.

MdKnightR
07-03-2007, 05:31 PM
...Now, as for regular clothes, there should be some sort of ''in school'' dress code, but simply to eliminate those clothes that are considered improper while at school...

...A moderate dress code is a lot better than uniforms and it will have the same effect on discipline....

I would have to disagree with you because of my experience as a teacher. We have a moderate dress code here (in the schools that don't have uniforms). The only thing that gets accomplished with a dress code is more time away from instruction. 90-95% of all the office referrals that I have written have been for dress code violations.

If students knew how to dress, or, rather, if students would dress as they know they should, it wouldn't be an issue. Uniforms insure that students are in class learning from a teacher who is free to teach rather than sitting in the office.

Hate to say it again, but parents should be making sure their children are taught how to dress appropriately and this should be even an issue for the schools.

And therein lies the rub! Unfortunately, in this day and age, parents aren't being parents. People expect the schools to raise their children rather than taking an active role in it themselves. :headbump

igyman
07-03-2007, 05:57 PM
If students knew how to dress, or, rather, if students would dress as they know they should, it wouldn't be an issue.
How a child, even if the child is a teenager, dresses is more of a parental problem than a school one, in my opinion, and should be treated as such.
I can understand that from your position as a teacher you consider uniforms to be the best solution, but I have my own high school experience (as a high school student though) to prove that teachers can do their jobs properly without forcing uniforms onto the students.

MdKnightR
07-03-2007, 06:14 PM
How a child, even if the child is a teenager, dresses is more of a parental problem than a school one, in my opinion, and should be treated as such.



Read the last part of my last post. I addressed this issue already.

Lord Spitfire
07-03-2007, 08:25 PM
I once remember a debate on TV between two high-end schools, debating on whether a uniform should be mandatory. Just for the record, uniforms are mandatory in like 90% of Indian schools. So, the "for" group said that it builds unity and equality. The "against" group said that it suppresses creativity and yada yada.

Here my dad makes an interesting statement. What is important is, to see why uniforms were instituted in the first place. Uniforms were derived from the military, where they are useful for recognition and status. If you find a wounded soldier, for example, you know where he's from and who he is. Similarly in a school, if a kid runs off on his own, people will know he is from a school and report accordingly. So the idea is, that uniforms are not used for hypothetical and theoretical purposes, but more for practical uses. (You get the drift)

I am definitely with the "for" group. Uniforms are good, because that way you can't differentiate a higher class from a lower class. You don't need to buy the latest fashion accessories. You can't boast of your new shiny clothes. You go to school to study, to learn - not to show off your awesome clothes.

Uniforms also show what school you are from, and more importantly, that you go to a school (which can be a bit of a bother with the lower classes here). So overall, I'm for the uniform, though I'm not sure what the American Scenario is. :xp:

I've lived in India, so I know what you mean, but i disagree that uniforms are created with all that money justto find out which school someoen is from if he or she goes off. And wouldn't using uniform to see if you actualyl go to school create discouragements for the hundreds of millions of school-less children there? Although, I do agree that it is to bring together the poor and rich. But that is not a problem in first-world countries like America, since everyone is rich compared to other countries like India or other Asian and African places.


However, when i moved to the U.S., I found that it was the opposite situation. When i went to school in India, ifyou showed up at school without a tie, wih too long shorts,or especially no uniformm, they would beat us with a stick, yet in America, I was in a state of shock when I realized that there were no uniforms in public schools,and even more shocked when I saw their ridicolously long - almost ankle, low shorts,extremely short skirts, and branded shirts. However, as i said, there is no need to have uniforms in first-world coutnries, especially America, since everyone is to a certain degree, rich.