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View Full Version : Who would win this battle? Revan or Darth Sidious(Emperor Palpatine)?


Jedi MasterRoot
08-08-2007, 02:00 PM
I was thinking about Jedi/Sith battles I'd like to see and this one popped into my head. I personally think it would be Revan though one of my reasons could be because i'm a fanboy. Tell me what you think.

Also I don't know if "Draw was the right word but I mean Stalemate if you didnt figure that out.

jonathan7
08-08-2007, 02:05 PM
Darth Sidious would clearly win because according to G-cannon Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord ever; ergo he would defeat Revan. On this matter I'm of the opinion that Yoda, Luke and Anakin/Vader would also beat him as well, but Revan is certainly in the top 10 strongest force users in Star Wars history, in my list I would probably have him at 5 or 6.

Jedi MasterRoot
08-08-2007, 02:09 PM
Darth Sidious would clearly win because according to G-cannon Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord ever; ergo he would defeat Revan. On this matter I'm of the opinion that Yoda, Luke and Anakin/Vader would also beat him as well, but Revan is certainly in the top 10 strongest force users in Star Wars history, in my list I would probably have him at 5 or 6.
What is g-cannon? and revan is more than a sith lord remember? also, who ever said the battle had to be in a head-2-head confrontation? it mightve been it might notve been im leaving the details of this fight to the imagination of everyon who veiws this.

jonathan7
08-08-2007, 02:21 PM
What is g-cannon? and revan is more than a sith lord remember? also, who ever said the battle had to be in a head-2-head confrontation? it mightve been it might notve been im leaving the details of this fight to the imagination of everyon who veiws this.

Well; g-canon is what George Lucas himself has said, which means it is above normal cannon as its what the creator of the universe thinks ;) Well you have to have it as a head to head really because otherwise Sidious could pay a non-force users like Carth to kill Revan as he could of shot him/her with a blaster while Revan slept on the Ebon Hawk. Also given that there is 4,000 years between it makes for more sense to just have a fight to decide who is more powerful. It leaves it too open, your reaction does scream of fan-boy :p I don't like Sidious but as I don't have an agenda over who is better out of him and Revan who is more likely out of us to have a non-biased appraisal of the situation?

stoffe
08-08-2007, 03:07 PM
According to stoffe-canon Revan would win since she's 4000 years older than Sidious (but would in turn be beaten by any Sith Lords predating her by a few centuries or more).

The general trend in the Star Wars universe (and Fantasy in general) seems to be that the more ancient something or someone is, the more powerful it/they were. As exemplified by Kreia's comment outside one of the tombs on Korriban that current Jedi/Sith were "mere children playing with toys compared to the old masters" or some such. :)

The Ancients / First Ones / Forerunners / Creators / Progenitors etc always seem to have been way beyond anything contemporary.

Emperor Devon
08-08-2007, 03:15 PM
Lucas said Sidious was the strongest. G-canon overrides all other forms of canon and fanboy theories, thread over. :P

Personally I don't think it's a fitting topic, as battle wasn't Palpatine's greatest strength by any means.

and revan is more than a sith lord remember?

Er, a wind-wiped soldier? A guy who went through Padawan-training twice? :P

also, who ever said the battle had to be in a head-2-head confrontation?

Not exactly the kind of fight you seemed to be portraying it as anymore, no?

stoffe
08-08-2007, 03:24 PM
Lucas said Sidious was the strongest.


Mary Sue character detected. :)

(Wouldn't that make Mace Windu the strongest Jedi ever as well? If Anakin hadn't been present he would have beaten the Most Powerful Sith Lord Ever!™ in a duel.)

Besides, most of the Extended Universe (and Sidious own accounts of his own master) would seem to contradict that claim. Though I suppose it depends on how you measure "powerful". Strong in the force? Combat proficiency? Knowledge? Ruthlessness? Political/minipulative skill (power through making others do as you want), ability to actually achieve set goals?

tk102
08-08-2007, 03:33 PM
Sidious had the most powerfully strong breath of all the Sith Lords. It's g-canon, go look it up.




(I was just about to type the Mace Windu thing before I read stoffe's last post.)

Pavlos
08-08-2007, 03:36 PM
Mary Sue character detected. :)

(Wouldn't that make Mace Windu the strongest Jedi ever as well? If Anakin hadn't been present he would have beaten the Most Powerful Sith Lord Ever!™ in a duel.)

Doubtful, as far as I'm concerned (and I believe the novelization is as well...) Palpatine senses that Anakin has arrived and allows himself to be disarmed, appearing the innocent victim when the would-be Dark Lord steps over the threshold. It's just another trick to pull young Skywalker down the dark path. Palpatine is the only way Anakin can save his wife... when he's (apparently) about to be defeated, Anakin must make a decision - and he plays into Sidious' hands.

Plus, if he was truly defeated by Mace then it doesn't exactly explain where that huge surge of power comes from at the end of the battle (the whole "power! Unlimited power!" thing).

jonathan7
08-08-2007, 03:43 PM
Doubtful, as far as I'm concerned (and I believe the novelization is as well...) Palpatine senses that Anakin has arrived and allows himself to be disarmed, appearing the innocent victim when the would-be Dark Lord steps over the threshold. It's just another trick to pull young Skywalker down the dark path. Palpatine is the only way Anakin can save his wife... when he's (apparently) about to be defeated, Anakin must make a decision - and he plays into Sidious' hands.

Plus, if he was truly defeated by Mace then it doesn't exactly explain where that huge surge of power comes from at the end of the battle (the whole "power! Unlimited power!" thing).

Hmmm, I don't think he was defeated, and he was certainly feigning how weak he was... Also given Yoda had the most force power and was the greatest Lightsaber duelist in the Jedi Order how come he drew with/couldn't defeat Palpatine yet Mace who was considered not as strong as Yoda managed to 'beat' Sidious? I'm also still firmly in the camp that Sidious would beat Revan. Whatever is said in EU doesn't make sense as surley Sidious would have an awful lot more material to study than previous Sith Lords meaning he could achieve a greater level of power?

stoffe
08-08-2007, 03:45 PM
Doubtful, as far as I'm concerned Palpatine senses that Anakin has arrived and allows himself to be disarmed, appearing the innocent victim when the would-be Dark Lord steps over the threshold.

I choose to believe what is shown in the movie and not the possibility of a thrown fight with underlying motives since I dislike the notion that bad guys always have to be so much more powerful than any of the good guys. So it was fairly refreshing that the Big Bad™ actually got his butt handed to him in battle for once by a good side character, and thus had to fall back to less direct means of achieving victory. :)

In my interpetation MW was a more combat oriented person than Sidious, so even if the latter was overall more powerful all things considered Sidious wouldn't stand a chance in a fair 1 on 1 duel between the two.


Plus, if he was truly defeated by Mace then it doesn't exactly explain where that huge surge of power comes from at the end of the battle (the whole "power! Unlimited power!" thing).

My interpretation would be that he realized that he lacked to power to overcome MW's saber block of his Force Lightning and as such gave up rather than waste more strength on it. Once MW was unhanded by Anakin and lost his ability to defend himself matters changed and Sidious brought the toaster back out again.

Also given Yoda had the most force power and was the greatest Lightsaber duelist in the Jedi Order how come he drew with/couldn't defeat Palpatine yet Mace who was considered not as strong as Yoda managed to 'beat' Sidious?

Simple. Sidious leveled up after having won his boss battle against MW. :p

jonathan7
08-08-2007, 04:36 PM
Simple. Sidious leveled up after having won his boss battle against MW. :p

Hehe :p Have you seen the recut version for the all 6 boxset?... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vn8MZgZmeT4

Irian
08-08-2007, 04:39 PM
Does anyone know for sure what Lucas' exact words were? Palpatine surely was the most powerfull Sith Lord, because he ruled the whole empire - he ruled more people than any Sith Lord before... But does this mean, that he automatically was the strongest force user of all times? Or the best lightsaber-fighter? As far as I understood it, direct fighting against the Jedi stopped being the way of the Sith since Darth Bane established the rule of two, so I would at least assume, that some Sith Lord were more powerfull force users than Palpatine and better swordsmen - this abilities just weren't enough the conquer the republic...

SilentScope001
08-08-2007, 04:48 PM
I choose to believe what is shown in the movie and not the possibility of a thrown fight with underlying motives since I dislike the notion that bad guys always have to be so much more powerful than any of the good guys.

But George Lucas said it was as such, that Palpatine threw the fight, in the Star Wars Ep. 3 DVD Commentary. You can't argue with G-Canon.

Silly George Lucas always ruining his stories. I loved Palpatine almost getting defeated and then using blind luck to save him.

stoffe
08-08-2007, 05:14 PM
But George Lucas said it was as such, that Palpatine threw the fight, in the Star Wars Ep. 3 DVD Commentary. You can't argue with G-Canon.

Of course I can, since nothing in the movie indicates that Sidious was beaten on purpose, and that's all I've seen. So I go with the S-canon version where he was beaten since that makes the story better, in my opinion. :D

JediMasterJambi
08-10-2007, 02:11 AM
Now hold on just one second Palpatine Fanboys.
First off:
Your talking about the NEC line aren't you?
"Yoda was unable to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."
Hate to break it to you buds. That lines not G-Canon. Its not even C-Canon. KJA didn't even review the line. The line is the authors (Dan Wallace) personal opinion on Palpatines strength.
The NEC is considered a GUIDE to the Chronology. It doesn't create Canon (Therefore its not considered C-Canon). His opinon is S-Canon based, just as much as yours is.

Second Off:
If thats NOT the line, then show me what statement are you talking about? If your gonna argue with Lucas Says then you'd better provide ATLEAST a quote. G-canon isn't G-canon unless you show GL saying it. :smash:

Stofee's point about ancient being better still stands as far as my thoughts go.

adamqd
08-10-2007, 04:01 AM
Stofee's point about ancient being better still stands as far as my thoughts go.

QFT, Even before the old Hag spews about it on Korriban, I've always believed this, whether it be real world warriors or fictional.

PoiuyWired
08-10-2007, 04:07 AM
Well, "Most Powerfu" is probably referring to being the most powerful when all things are concerned, including the fact that he mostly pacify the galaxy with many many troops under his command, which is true. This does not mean he is the best in everything and anything, for one he would have lost a beauty contest with many other cooler sithlords, and his taste in outfit too ...

Point being, in a one on one fight Palpy is probably not the best, and Revan is probably a better tactical general than him. But fact being Palpy is the first Sith to make the whole known(so called) galaxy his own.

That Is Power.

JediMasterJambi
08-10-2007, 11:18 PM
Well, "Most Powerfu" is probably referring to being the most powerful when all things are concerned, including the fact that he mostly pacify the galaxy with many many troops under his command, which is true. This does not mean he is the best in everything and anything, for one he would have lost a beauty contest with many other cooler sithlords, and his taste in outfit too ...

Point being, in a one on one fight Palpy is probably not the best, and Revan is probably a better tactical general than him. But fact being Palpy is the first Sith to make the whole known(so called) galaxy his own.

That Is Power.
I must agree that Palpa was definatley the most politically powerful Sith Lord in history aswell.

The line could definatley be inturpeted as such.
EX:
"Gorge W. Bush is more "Powerful" than Arnold Schwarzenegger."
Yha...but Arnold would kick the !@$ out of Bush any day of the week...

However, Dan Wallace confrimed in an e-mail that what he mean't by "Powerful" was, infact, POWERFUL. (Combat Skills Included.)
Though it dosn't matter. The line is only his S-Canon based opinon. Hes a Palpa fan. ;)

Edit: But George Lucas said it was as such, that Palpatine threw the fight, in the Star Wars Ep. 3 DVD Commentary. You can't argue with G-Canon.
At first I was willing to agree with you dude...If George says it, I believe it...Unfortunatley I am a stubborn Mace fanboy. So I decided to check you on this.

I didn't want to de-credit your statement without being absolutely sure. (So I had to wait 1 day to get my Ep. 3 DVD back from my brother.) I watched chapters 20 - 31 with commentary on (3 times at least), and even re-checked the deleted scenes. George never...ever...said Palpa threw the fight. No one did.
In fact...George specifically says in Chapter 27...
(Which is entitled Mace vs Sidious)
"Okay...Well this sequence...uh...Always started out with Mace...Uh >overpowering< Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part (After Palpatine had already been disarmed, and first attempted to shoot force lightning at Mace.) where he, he pretends to lose his power and be weak, was something that I added later." G-Canon ;)
George tells us he was depicting Mace as OVERPOWERING Palpatine.
Debate over. Mace defeated Sidious in combat.
G-Canon over-rides all. Mace is better with a lightsaber than Palpatine.

And to clear things up even further, Yoda didn't lose to Palpatine. IF ANYTHING, it was a DRAW.
Proof:
1. Palpatine TRIED TO RUN from Yoda. PALPA KNEW HE COULDN'T DEFEAT YODA.
2. Palpatine realized that Yoda was his superior in Lightsaber combat early in the duel. He used RANGED combat against Yoda afterwards. (He couldn't do this in his office against Mace)
3. Also note that this is after 66 occurred. Yoda has just finished feeling the loss of at least (guesstamation) 80% of the Jedi of the Order. Including the lives of children, students, and some of his closest friends. As a Jedi, he can't succumb to Fear (Fear of also dying at the hands of Sidious, fear of seeing the end of ALL JEDI.), or Anger (Revenge on Sidious for all the loved ones he had killed.) And therefore despite the fact he was fighting Palpatine he also had to restrain these emotions of Fear and Anger. And may have even FAILED to do so, and therefore was unable to defeat him due to that.

Jedi MasterRoot
08-14-2007, 11:43 AM
WOW! This became more of a heated disscussion then I thought it would. Though I will point out that you all drifted away from the topic. It was a good argument but know you are all just talking about how what and why Sidious did what he did in Eps. 3. This is SUPPOSED to be about the winner of a duel between Revan and Sidious so I would appreciate it if you stayed on topic. Though that was a good argument none the less

Alexander the Great
08-14-2007, 08:38 PM
Except for history and character information and stuff, Lucas contradicts himself all the time. So do all of his slave minions.

Sidious wasn't the most powerful Sith; if he was, he could have destroyed most of the Jedi Order himself without much trouble. Marka Ragnos, possibly the most powerful, could've done that with ease.

Anyway, read my post in the "Nihilus vs Revan" thread regarding Revan.

Masgrtgr
08-15-2007, 01:13 AM
Cosidering how Palpatine actually has several feats of strength whereas Revan has no feats whatsoever I'd say Palpy wins a feat contest.

And to claim the warriors of the past in real life are superior to the warriors of the future in real life as well is pure nonsense. I'd like to see a Spartan beat a Marine.

In any case seeing as how the Ancient Sith were pretty much exterminated I have doubts about their superiority. After all if they were so superior to the the future Sith then why were they exterminated?

Nikkolas
08-15-2007, 02:20 AM
Mace Windu beat Palpatine in a lightsaber duel...while Mace had a style he specifically created that is extra effective against any Dark Side user.

But Palpatine is MUCH stronger than Mace when it comes to the Force.

Also, I take it no one here has actually read Dark Empire. IT's completely canon and states Palpatine is not only the most powerful Sith ever, he shows it in the comic.

Or can you name another Sith who can create a Hyperspace Wormhole or annihilate a starfleet with ease?

First off:
Your talking about the NEC line aren't you?
"Yoda was unable to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."
Hate to break it to you buds. That lines not G-Canon. Its not even C-Canon. KJA didn't even review the line. The line is the authors (Dan Wallace) personal opinion on Palpatines strength.
The NEC is considered a GUIDE to the Chronology. It doesn't create Canon (Th

Uh-huh.

And you have proof for ANY of this?

And every Sith who has come after the Ancients have surpassed them all in power.

Or can you tell me anY Ancient who did things like Exar, Nihilus or Palpatine?

In fact, what feats AT ALL can you guys name for the Ancient Sith?

When Ludo and Naga fought, Naga's immense displays of power included dropping a brick on Ludo's head and...that's all.

The Ancient Sith, by everything shown, are probably the weakest era.They needed artifacts to agument their abilities.

stoffe
08-15-2007, 06:49 AM
Also, I take it no one here has actually read Dark Empire. IT's completely canon and states Palpatine is not only the most powerful Sith ever, he shows it in the comic.

Or can you name another Sith who can create a Hyperspace Wormhole or annihilate a starfleet with ease?


Sounds like very good reasons not to read Dark Empire to me, Mary Sue characters tend to annoy me, as does the EUs insistence to drag the Star Wars universe away from the movies in a direction of more traditional Fantasy/magic. :)

Starwars as portrayed by the movies were, while fiction, presented in a way that makes it feel plausible; a mix of futuristic technology-based sci-fi with some mystical/occult aspects. Jedi/Sith, while powerful, were quite mortal and could be overwhelmed, surprised and killed just like any other being. Their powers, while incredible, were not over the top. They were given a distinct advantage, but were not portrayed as living gods.

When you bring in more traditional fantasy/magic aspects and start to have immortal characters casually juggling with planets or re-shaping the galaxy at a whim things go from interesting to ridiculous, in my opinion. :)

Irian
08-15-2007, 08:09 AM
Sidious wasn't the most powerful Sith; if he was, he could have destroyed most of the Jedi Order himself without much trouble. Marka Ragnos, possibly the most powerful, could've done that with ease.

Why do you think that? The resurrected Marka Ragnos was beaten by ONE rather green Jedi Knight...

Miltiades
08-15-2007, 01:55 PM
And to claim the warriors of the past in real life are superior to the warriors of the future in real life as well is pure nonsense. I'd like to see a Spartan beat a Marine.

Give the Marines the same weapons and the same armor as the Spartans (which is almost none) and we'll see who wins. That's how it is in Star Wars universe.

Arcesious
08-15-2007, 04:21 PM
Good point.

A soldier with less training but more power can't beat a very well trained soldier if the lesser trained soldier doesn't have all those fancy weapons to help him. ex- a Spartan without it's special weapons can't beat a well trained Marine.

PoiuyWired
08-15-2007, 05:21 PM
Well, Marines and Spartans have quite different ways of training adopted to the different style of warfare they exile in. Spartans are not taught to use firearms and drive combat vehicles for that reason. But 200 Spartans with modern equipment against the Pussian army would be slightly unfair.

But to be fair though, Marines probably spend much less time training compared to a Spartan... cause all them spartans do are train, yell "Spartaaaaa" and dine in Hell's Kitchen. On the other hand, mordern training methods are much more effective.

Alexander the Great
08-15-2007, 05:46 PM
Cosidering how Palpatine actually has several feats of strength whereas Revan has no feats whatsoever I'd say Palpy wins a feat contest.

And to claim the warriors of the past in real life are superior to the warriors of the future in real life as well is pure nonsense. I'd like to see a Spartan beat a Marine.

In any case seeing as how the Ancient Sith were pretty much exterminated I have doubts about their superiority. After all if they were so superior to the the future Sith then why were they exterminated?

What I said is pure nonsense, huh? Well in that case, so is comparing Star Wars to real life.

This is a repost from a post I made on another forum regarding Ragnos:


1. Jeh Dai Masters felt tremors in the Force in his presence
2. He didn't die in combat, like most people. He died a natural death.
3. He ruled as the Dark Lord by defeating Simus, then he continued to rule until death. He was a half blood, so every single Sith that he ruled hated him. In Sith tradition, whoever kills the one in charge gets their place. If every one of the Sith hated him, why didn't any of them kill him and become the leader of the Sith? The simple fact that he either cut down anyone who challenged him, or they felt his power and **** their pants from just being in his presence.
4. When he bestowed the title of Dark Lord and Apprentice to Exar Kun and Ulic, that was the title that Ulic had worked for. Then some ghost hands the title to a stranger. If Ragnos didn't have titanic power, Ulic would've said "d00d, wtf gives? i r 1337, make me dark lawd!!!11!!!" but he didn't even so much as question Ragnos. He just let his title be handed to Kun out of fear and/or honor.


Why do you think that? The resurrected Marka Ragnos was beaten by ONE rather green Jedi Knight...

If you're referring to Jedi Knight III, think about what you're saying. You're fighting Ragnos' spirit controlling some Dark Jedi who's a wannabe Sith. You know how much that would dampen his power? It's like taking Jimi Hendrix, cutting off his limbs, and telling him to play a flawless solo. I'm not even sure if Jedi Academy is canon (probably is, but I'm not sure what gives me that idea).

Nikkolas
08-15-2007, 06:11 PM
And yet, none of tha tmatches anything Palpatine has done.

Or can you name one thing Ragnos has done that matches making a wormhole?

Nancy Allen``
08-15-2007, 06:35 PM
Revan, no question. For one, he's a powerhouse compared to Palpatine. For another Force Lightning isn't the only trick he has. Sidious has one lightsaber, Revan uses (or can use) two. Plus Sith were as common as dirt back in Revan's time, how many did he crush? And if any allies are to be in the fray Revan has Mission, Zaalbaar, Juhani, which wouldn't sit well with Palpatine, doesn't it say somewhere he's a racist? Now knowing Revan, if Revan was female you would also need to take into account just where she might choose to stick that lightsaber.

Alexander the Great
08-15-2007, 06:45 PM
Being able to over power the rest of the Sith Order consisting of other powerful Sith Lords? And Palpatine couldn't control the full force of his storms. I'm not saying he's weak, especially not DE, but Ragnos was stronger.

Revan, no question. For one, he's a powerhouse compared to Palpatine. For another Force Lightning isn't the only trick he has. Sidious has one lightsaber, Revan uses (or can use) two. Plus Sith were as common as dirt back in Revan's time, how many did he crush? And if any allies are to be in the fray Revan has Mission, Zaalbaar, Juhani, which wouldn't sit well with Palpatine, doesn't it say somewhere he's a racist? Now knowing Revan, if Revan was female you would also need to take into account just where she might choose to stick that lightsaber.

Depends. If it's DE Sidious we're talking about, he could most likely beat Revan. Two lightsabers doesn't mean anything, are you forgetting Anakin vs Dooku? Dooku manhandled him when he had two sabers. Anakin defeated Asajj Ventress when she had two sabers, as did Obi-Wan. Komari Vosa was killed by Jango Fett, she had two sabers and he had none. I've always seen two sabers to be a sign of arrogance, and as Dooku said in one of the Clone Wars novels, it's foolish to wield two when only one is needed.

He said Revan vs Palpatine, not Revan and friends. And Sidious would annihilate them in a few seconds even if they were included. The Revan female thing is irrelevant since Revan's canonically a male. I don't agree with Sidious being the strongest, but if it's DE he's most likely stronger than Revan.

Nancy Allen``
08-15-2007, 06:54 PM
Wait, first you said that he's not that strong, then bring up all these reasons to why he would beat Revan. Which is it?

SilentScope001
08-15-2007, 07:33 PM
Palpatine will win because Palpatine got clones. :D

Alexander the Great
08-15-2007, 07:35 PM
Wait, first you said that he's not that strong, then bring up all these reasons to why he would beat Revan. Which is it?

I'm not saying he's not that strong. He is, he just isn't the strongest.

We don't have much to define exactly how powerful Revan was, but he didn't do many impressive feats. The only reason this fight is even reasonable is that he was described as "power" and "looking into the heart of the Force" and all that jazz. But like I said on another thread, the same thing could be said about Anakin. He wasn't as strong as Palpatine in RotS, and my guess is Revan isn't either.

Miltiades
08-15-2007, 08:08 PM
If it would be a face-to-face battle, Revan would overpower Palpatine easily, I think. Palpatine's no fighter. Palpatine's strength lies in his ability to manipulate and in his intelligence.

Alexander the Great
08-15-2007, 08:45 PM
Have you read DE? He's a monster in that.... Even though he got defeated by 2.5 people (Yes, I'm being serious with the 2.5), one of them was Luke. His strength actually lies in his massive strength in the Force, manipulation is just another specialty.

Nikkolas
08-15-2007, 09:28 PM
We know nothing of the Sith of Ragnos' reign.

For instance, Simus kept himself alive as a head.

Palpatine kept himself alive as nothing more than a spirit and moved it across space.

Ragnos' underlings, Sadow and Kreesh, fought. And the fight consisted of Sadow throwing a brick at his foe.

Again, not impressive.

For all we know, KOTOR Sith were stronger than Ragnos'. In Kotor,we have Nihilus who can kill planets easily.

In Palpatine's time, Dooku is said to be one of the most powerful Jedi and Sith of all time, capable of bringing people like Ventress to their knees with a finger and owning Obi-Wan with a flick of the wirst. And he was effin' terrified and knew he was no match for Palpatine.

There's nothing we've seen of any Ancient Sith that suggests they were more powerful than Palpatine.

And Palpatine can't control the technique perfectly..so what? It can still annihilate starfleets and be used over lightyears. It rips apart space-time. Existence itself.

Alexander the Great
08-15-2007, 10:05 PM
Actually, I looked at some quotes and stuff, and you might be right. Sidious is at least on par with them, I'll give you that. Anyway, it's a bit off topic talking about ancient Sith. But we all agree (well, most of us) that Sidious could beat Revan. This thread's pretty much settled.

JoeDoe 2.0
08-15-2007, 10:16 PM
Revan would kick Sidious wrinkled butt :p

Come one! He wrote the rule of two! He basically created the New Sith thanks to the teachings Bane found at the Rakattan Temple.

Nancy Allen``
08-16-2007, 12:04 AM
But we all agree (well, most of us) that Sidious could beat Revan. This thread's pretty much settled.

:whistles:

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e7/nancyallen/Capture-08-16-00001.jpg

Arcesious
08-16-2007, 12:19 AM
As one of my Character's say sin a story i am writing: "Palpatine was a fool."

Um.... revan owns darth sidious totally. allt he votes shoudl be for revan, not just 3/4's of em.
Sidious was a power hungry, arrogant, overconfident fool- heck- without his secret, hidden kaiburr crystal necklace, he wouldn't have even been able to weild force lightning agaisnt an opponent.
Revan owns all. Did you see whow Revan useed the Vaapad high-point stab position for defense agaisnt three jedi on the leviation form K1? that is a very hard stance to break, even with any move you use. Sidious used Vaapad also, but Mace windo used Vaapad even better than sidious- i personnally think Revan was the master of the lightsaber form of Vaapad, and was quite good with Makashi too as i studied how he held his stance in the visions he has in K1. Use those tow forms together and you've got yourself one tough opponent- evne if you have really strong force powers.

Nancy Allen``
08-16-2007, 12:24 AM
That's a very good point, Palpatine's arrogance. Best example would be the Death Star, I'm not sure if you can blame him or Tarkin but the destruction of Aldaraan turned the galaxy against the Empire like nothing else. Ditto for the second Death Star, not having the fleet attack, not concerned over the strike force on Endor, or that Vader would act when he saw his son being tortured to death.

Arcesious
08-16-2007, 12:54 AM
Yeah. If i was a sith lord, i'd always have all the filsafes in place, backup plans and such. but when a plan fials, i'd always have a nifty trap door under my throne to escape.

Bu tthne, you've got the stormtrooper effect... that wssas one thing going against palpy boy that sure caused problems for him.

Personnally- the death star was a really stupid idea in the first place. it was limited, whereas a ship i have in my story- Domination, is a 720 KM long SSD armed with so many weapons, the Death star's superlasrer is only an average weapon among it's array of much more powerful weapons. add to that a tactical genious more cunning than thrawn himself, and the death star wouldn't even be thought of as very dangerous anymore compared to it. Now
Palpatine assumed power through mind control of the senate- causing such aggression on alderaan was a tactical mistake.

For example:
The weak, such as civilians, may gain fear from seeing suhc a weapon, but the strong, the soldiers of a civilization- seeing something so powerful aimed agaisnt them inspires fury, and rage. a large enough military force enraged enough can defeat a potentially stronger force. THat was Tarkin's tactical mistake with the death star.

JediMasterJambi
08-16-2007, 03:19 AM
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/5968/funnywookiekingre1.jpg:lightningPalpatine Fanboys of the Forum unite!!!
Mace Windu beat Palpatine in a lightsaber duel...

Thank you ladies and gentle men, and good night!
My friend, It dosen't matter how strong Palpatine is with force powers, hes not the best lightsaber duelist, not even close. Mace beat him in a duel. And next thing I know, your going to tell me Revan's not better with a lightsaber than Mace is? Continue reading before you do, please ;)
Dark Empire (C-Canon)
Lol DE. DE is a joke dude. Its mere existance completley contradicts Anakin's Prophecy, but for the hell of it i'll play by you rules on this one...
Now then your C-Canon DE vs my provided G-Canon (Straight from GL's MOUTH.) proof that Mace beat Palpatine. G wins. Revan > Mace > Palpatine. Thus Palpatine isn't "The Most Powerful Blah blah..." He IS POWERFUL, just not #1.
O, and btw, it dosen't matter if George comes out tomarrow and says: "Well, actually Porkins was mean't to be the Chosen One. When he crashed into the Death Star, he survived using a Force Shield, and then Blew up the Death Star with his mind. He then used the Force to control Darth Vader, and had him throw Palpatine down the power shaft."
The fact remains that its G-Canon. You DON'T and CAN'T argue with it.
End of discussion.



Uh-huh.

And you have proof for ANY of this?
Lol, yes, yes I do.
http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/2678/danwallace3kryj9.jpg
There you have it friend. You called me on it, and I showed you my hand.
O, wait, "but that could be a fake e-mail."
http://danwall88.googlepages.com/
Or not...The NEC line is his opinon guys, nothing more, nothing less.
But for the heck of it, lets say i'm wrong. Its still only C-Canon. G still wins.

And now for the ancient Jedi/Sith argument...O fun.
1. "We are like children playing with toys compared to the old Sith masters." - Kreia....4000 years before the movie Era... ;) (C-Canon)
2. Indisputable. The Jedi and Sith of the KoTOR and pre-KoTOR era experienced MUCH, MUCH more combat against other force userers (lightsabers included) than the Jedi of the Movie era. Its a fact. Get over it. (S-Canon)
3. Ki Adi Mundi: "That's impossible. The Sith have been extinct for a millennium."(G-Canon) Thus the Jedi have been focusing training against BLASTERS for the last 1000 years! Not training against LIGHTSABERS, or even other Force-users.
1 + 2 + 3 = The Jedi of the Movie Era SUCKED compared to the KOTOR Era Jedi...MACE DEFEATED PALPATINE...I can't make it any clearer people.
Ancient is better. This is just how the universe of Starwars works. Learn it, love it, live by it.

This thread's pretty much settled.

Nikkolas
08-16-2007, 04:34 AM
1. "We are like children playing with toys compared to the old Sith masters." - Kreia....4000 years before the movie Era... (C-Canon)

She was talking about lightsaber combat genius.

The old hag was obviously senile as the "old masters" or Ancietn Sith DIDN'T USE lightsabers.

2. Indisputable. The Jedi and Sith of the KoTOR and pre-KoTOR era experienced MUCH, MUCH more combat against other force userers (lightsabers included) than the Jedi of the Movie era. Its a fact. Get over it. (S-Canon)

PT was the strongest era accordign to Lucas. I'll get the interview.

3. Ki Adi Mundi: "That's impossible. The Sith have been extinct for a millennium."(G-Canon) Thus the Jedi have been focusing training against BLASTERS for the last 1000 years! Not training against LIGHTSABERS, or even other Force-users.

Tell that to Dooku, declared one of the strongest Jedi in history. Who himself was easily defeated by Yoda on a planet filled with the dark side in the novel DarK Rendezvous and who had to flee.

Also, might I add, your logic sucks. Mace and Sora Bulq invented a completely new lightsaber form in this era of focussing on blasters.... in fact, it's stated to be the deadliest of all lightsaber forms.

1 + 2 + 3 = The Jedi of the Movie Era SUCKED compared to the KOTOR Era Jedi..

I don't remember seeing any of the KOTOR Era doing anythign except dying. There was less than a 100 left in The Sith Lords.

Plus, every time a "Jedi Master" is seen or talked about, he's dying.

Not exactly impressive.

.MACE DEFEATED PALPATINE...I can't make it any clearer people.

Just like he's pwn Revan, yes.

You also forgot Mace both has the benefit of Shatterpoint and Vaapad, a specifically deadly form to anyonw who uses the dark side.

G still wins.

Glad we agree.

My friend, It dosen't matter how strong Palpatine is with force powers, hes not the best lightsaber duelist, not even close

After he hadn't practiced with the saber for years. He had it stored in a statue when he became Chancellor, I believe.

And next thing I know, your going to tell me Revan's not better with a lightsaber than Mace is? Continue reading before you do, please

Yes, Mace is by far a better duelist.

Now then your C-Canon DE vs my provided G-Canon (Straight from GL's MOUTH.) proof that Mace beat Palpatine. G wins. Revan > Mace > Palpatine. Thus Palpatine isn't "The Most Powerful Blah blah..." He IS POWERFUL, just not #1.

That's really a total raping of logic.

So, to you, Dark Empire = Revenge of the Sith?

And maybe AOTC Anakin = ROTS Anakin?

Or maybe Darth Revan = KOTOR Revan?

None of that is true as the second incarnations of all are visibly shown or stated to be stronger.

Mace beat ROTS Palpatine. NOT DE Palpatine.

O, and btw, it dosen't matter if George comes out tomarrow and says: "Well, actually Porkins was mean't to be the Chosen One. When he crashed into the Death Star, he survived using a Force Shield, and then Blew up the Death Star with his mind. He then used the Force to control Darth Vader, and had him throw Palpatine down the power shaft."
The fact remains that its G-Canon. You DON'T and CAN'T argue with it.
End of discussion.

Glad we agreeo.

PT Jedi > KOTOR Jedi according to Lucas.

stoffe
08-16-2007, 09:31 AM
Mod note:
Seems like this thread is heading in the wrong direction as it is. Could everyone please mind your tone and check your your posts one extra time before you hit the post button to ensure you don't come off as more acidic than intended. (And if you do intend to come off as acidic, press ALT-F4 instead of Post and cool down a bit.)

This is a thread discussing subjective opinions, just because someone doesn't see things the way you do you shouldn't insult them. This is a discussion forum, not a belligerence forum.

So, less of this please: :swear:

Sephira
08-16-2007, 09:33 AM
Sure ok, I apologise for loosing my cool but um the evidence i posted on sidious case was deleted as well.

The stuff i posted about sidious clearly puts him above revan but may i request that i have it back? I will erase the swearing stuff

Jae Onasi
08-16-2007, 11:16 AM
I think it's time to trot this post back out....

------------------------------------------------------

Statement on the new 6 degrees of Star Wars Canon

We, at WookieWikiWarrickWicketpedia, wish to clear up the confusion of ‘Canon’ in Star Wars by instituting a new classification system on how to rank the different Star Wars and Star Wars EU materials. This will replace the Canon-a, b, c and g system (along with other letters and symbols), which was becoming just too confusing, resulting in many emails from forum administrators and moderators who were ‘having to deal with too damn many threads on arguments over Canon’.

1st degree Canon shall be The Movies. Radio adaptations, so long as they include voices from the Original Actors (and Actresses) shall also be 1st degree Canon. The Screenplays are also 1st degree Canon, but only if George Lucas put a ‘GL’ on every page. The official soundtracks are 1st degree Canon, because John Williams has included the use of both the bassoon and the triangle in his music, and quite possibly the krummhorn. Anything spoken by George Lucas is first degree Canon, including those more mundane statements like ‘I want to order a pizza’ and ‘I have to find the nearest restroom.’

2nd degree Canon shall include those radio adaptations that deviate from the script slightly but still maintain the ‘True Spirit’ of the movies. Those radio adaptations that include the voices of Harrison Ford or Liam Neeson shall automatically be changed to 1st degree Canon, because their voices are really sexy. Those adaptations that include excess amounts of Jar-Jar Binks or Ewok cuteness shall automatically be reduced to 6th degree Canon or less.

3rd degree Canon shall include any books that George Lucas decides shall be 3rd degree, which is pretty much everything else not in the 1st and 2nd degrees. It’s his world—if he wants to say a book is 1st degree or 6th degree, we shall bow to his greater wisdom. The exception are the Vong books, which shall be reduced to 6th degree or the 9th circle of Dante’s Inferno, whichever comes last. All Star Wars games are 3rd degree Canon. The Knights of the Old Republic games, because they are Really Righteous, are 2nd degree Canon. We hereby declare all permutations of Revan and Exile to be Canon, because trying to pick just one is really p!$$ing off the fans. The Star Wars Lego games would be 4th degree Canon because of the ‘cutesy factor’, except for the fact that my son really likes the games, so they stay at 3rd degree.

4th degree Canon includes any comic books. Graphic novels remain at 3rd degree because ‘graphic novel’ sounds more cool than ‘comic book.’ The exception is the Knights of the Old Republic comic book series, which is destined to become a Graphic Novel when bound together, and because they’ve drawn Zayne Carrick really cute. It’s at least 3rd degree, and we might even make that series 2nd degree if sales continue to be good.

5th degree Canon includes all fan-fiction, unless they are “Really Good,” which, by our definition, is anything with over 1,000 views on LucasForums or over 15 thumbs-ups on kotorfanmedia. If they’re “Really Good”, then they can, at the option of the administrators, moderators, machievelli, or the author, move to 4th degree. The exception is if the spam-per-view ratio approaches 1:82, in which case the fanfic shall be declared ‘spammy’ and the fic drops to 6th degree. Action figures are 5th degree Canon, unless they involve Yoda, Han Solo, or Luke Skywalker. These are 1st degree Canon because I like them and because Frank Oz rules.

6th degree Canon includes any speculative posts on any forums. It also includes any non-speculative posts, comments, jokes, pictures, and other written, visual, or aural media. Anything else not already specified shall be 6th degree Canon, unless the author finds something she really likes, in which case the Degree of Canon may be altered accordingly. Forum posts that are written by administrators or moderators shall be whatever Degree of Canon they desire, because the author feels the need to suck up, unless George Lucas declares otherwise, because his 1st degree is more equal than everyone else’s 1st degree.

We hope this clears up any confusion about Canon. If you have any further questions, please send an email to our help center at ‘we won’t answer it anyway.idiocy'. We will do our best to make sure that the answer to your questions are answered with as much obfuscation as possible, preferably by someone who does not even speak your language.

Thank you for your kind attention to this matter.

adamqd
08-16-2007, 01:46 PM
^^^
Yea, thats far simpler than the official system :lol:

(best make an on topic post or i'll get deleted again!)

Revan Rules!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Arcesious
08-16-2007, 01:47 PM
Jeez.... did anyone forget i said Palpatine had a Kiaburr Crystal dramtically enhancing his powers? Nowe here was the source that prove she had a kaiburr crystal.... man.... if only i could just find it... It would prove that Palpy boy was actually an average low-level sith lord without the boost he had fromt hat crystal.

Miltiades
08-16-2007, 02:26 PM
Palpatine didn't use that Kaiburr crystal, but was used by Luke Skywalker, Darth Vader and Lumiya, according to Wookieepedia (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kaiburr_crystal).

Arcesious
08-16-2007, 04:18 PM
Okay. that clears some things up for me. including that i only heardof palpatines kaiburr crystal through a comic book- which i guess with the new canon system isn't canon.

Miltiades
08-16-2007, 05:07 PM
Comics are canon... although, sometimes it can contradict with other sources (as seen between the Jedi vs. Sith comics and Darth Bane: Path of Destruction). But I'd like to know which comic you read that in. Maybe it was an Infinities comic, which is not canon...

Arcesious
08-16-2007, 06:02 PM
It was a random comic i think i saw on wikipedia. I don't rember what it was called- only that some empire ship went down a black hole and the emporer got some kairburr crystals from some planet or whatever.

JediMasterJambi
08-16-2007, 06:28 PM
Whoa, whoa whoa. Alright buddy. Now I respect you and your opinion on this matter, but take a step back and look for a second here.

You also forgot Mace both has the benefit of Shatterpoint and Vaapad, a specifically deadly form to anyonw who uses the dark side. THAT'S great. And your point is what exactly? I never said Mace wasn't strong. Just that Revan is stronger.
That's really a total raping of logic.

So, to you, Dark Empire = Revenge of the Sith?

And maybe AOTC Anakin = ROTS Anakin?

Or maybe Darth Revan = KOTOR Revan?
No, infact, to me Dark Empire is completley invalid.

Because DE specifically contradicts the prophecy of Anakin destroying the Sith, not inclusive of Dark Jedi, Sidious was indeed the last Dark Lord of the Sith and he was defeated in ROTJ, meaning the prophecy had been fulfilled.

However DE contradicts this entirely, by bringing back Sidious it specifically means that the Prophecy was wrong and Anakin did not and will not destroy the Sith. Which contradicts Georges MOVIES and thus contradicts G-Canon.

Mace beat ROTS Palpatine. NOT DE Palpatine.
It doesn't matter does it bud? Your DE Palpatine doesn't out-canon the movies. I doubt he's even C-Canon considering his existence CONTRADICTS THE MOVIES. DE holds no bearing here. So stop bringing it up.

PT Jedi > KOTOR Jedi according to Lucas.
You said this in your post twice already. You have nothing. I said this before, and i'll say it again. YOU CAN'T USE G-CANON UNLESS YOU PROVIDE PROOF THAT IT IS G-CANON! Lmfao.
My quote is NOT ONLY G-Canon, but its ALSO from the MOVIE COMENTARY explained by George Lucas HIMSELF. So get over it guy. Palpatine isn't the best. Stop being a freaking flipping Palpatine fanboy.
Here is what you basically just did.
"Proof, facts, quotes, canon." -JediMasterJambi
"No." -Nikkolas
You told me I was wrong, despite that I gave valid quotes, canon, facts, and proof to back my facts up. And you did this without giving valid facts, proof, or canon of your own relating to this discussion.
You didn't make my quote invalid. You gave no valid counter-arguments to ANY of my 3 points concerning ancient Jedi. Infact, the only thing in your entire reply I considered was this...Tell that to Dooku, declared one of the strongest Jedi in history. And yet you still didn't provide a quote or even a link.

I've already proved that Mace beat Palpatine. And i've already given proof as to why Ancient Sith and Jedi are stronger than the Movie Jedi and Sith. Nothing in your reply has disproved me. DE is a contradiction. So don't bother giving me that crap again.

Show me your proof, or disprove mine. Then I will attempt a rebuttal, until then...
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/7169/failwalkerst7.jpg


Mod note: Edited offensive tone. See mod note above. Please cool down a bit. ~M

Alexander the Great
08-16-2007, 06:34 PM
Wikipedia can't really be trusted on these things, just so you know. Anyone can edit it, so a quarter of it is fanon.

Actually, to be honest, a lot of things in SW contradict other sources. Sort of ruins the whole debating thing. Again, we have no solid proof of Revan's power. Sidious, we know that he was able to match Yoda, one of the most powerful Jedi to ever live. He was also able to incinerate entire starship fleets with the will of the Force, as well as kill three Jedi masters while fighting four in under fifteen seconds.

Revan was able to defeat Darth Malak, a Sith Lord of average power (as did Obi-Wan as a padawan). Give me a couple more impressive feats of Revan and I may concede.

Nikkolas
08-16-2007, 06:49 PM
Prime of the Jedi

http://www.starwars.com/episode-i/bts/me1/6.html

Also, Jenobi, if you had read a comic, you'd KNOW that Kreia is WRONG about her quote. The Ancient Sith always used Sith Swords, not lightsabers. So they could not make KOTOR II Jedi look like children in LIGHTSABER combat.

And Lucas himself read and liked Dark Empire.
And it's also canon Vaapad is the deadliest lightsaber form ever created.

You can't reply or debate. YOu just say lol. It's very sad.

Alexander the Great
08-16-2007, 06:54 PM
Prime of the Jedi

http://www.starwars.com/episode-i/bts/me1/6.html

Also, Jenobi, if you had read a comic, you'd KNOW that Kreia is WRONG about her quote. The Ancient Sith NEVER used SITH SWORDS, not lightsabers. So they could not make KOTOR II Jedi look like children in LIGHTSABER combat.

And Lucas himself read and liked Dark Empire. So...pleae be quiet.
And it's also canon Vaapad is the deadliest lightsaber form ever created.

You can't reply or debate. YOu just say lol. It's very sad.

[

I'm assuming you mean they "always" use Sith swords.

urluckyday
08-16-2007, 07:04 PM
Sidious, plain and simple.

stoffe
08-16-2007, 07:10 PM
Mod note:
There are still emotions running a bit too high in this thread. I believe there was a nudge earlier in this thread not to post in an inflamatory manner or insult others because they don't share your opinion. This still applies, if you are unable to post without a sharp, belittling tone then refrain from posting until you can do so.

I am trying to be civil about this, but I will not repeat it again. Anyone continuing to ignore this and posting in an offensive manner in this thread will henceforth be given warning infractions. :stick:

JediMasterJambi
08-16-2007, 07:17 PM
Wikipedia can't really be trusted on these things, just so you know. Anyone can edit it, so a quarter of it is fanon.

Actually, to be honest, a lot of things in SW contradict other sources. Sort of ruins the whole debating thing. Again, we have no solid proof of Revan's power. Sidious, we know that he was able to match Yoda, one of the most powerful Jedi to ever live. He was also able to incinerate entire starship fleets with the will of the Force, as well as kill three Jedi masters while fighting four in under fifteen seconds.

Revan was able to defeat Darth Malak, a Sith Lord of average power (as did Obi-Wan as a padawan). Give me a couple more impressive feats of Revan and I may concede.

I'm saying that due to the fact that Revan is 4000 years older than Palpatine, hes more powerful. That he lived in an age where Force Userers were merley more powerful, and more attuned to the force becasue they had to rely and improve upon it more. That in that age Lightsaber technuiqes were more emphasized, and thus much more improved upon when compared to those of the movie era. I'm saying that in the 1000 years of peace the Jedi Order experienced, they were weakened, and lost much of their ability as fighters when compared. I'm saying that the KOTOR era was strife with war, (Against thousands of enemies ON PAR with Jedi, 1 vs 1, like Dark Jedi, Mandalorians, Sith, Trentek, etc.) the Jedi of that era were all around MORE POWERFUL IN COMBAT when compared to the Movie era Jedi because of those enemies.

Prime of the Jedi

http://www.starwars.com/episode-i/bts/me1/6.html
Ahah. So thats your source?
When Lucas says "Prime of The Jedi." This would mean "Prime of Peace, and Prosparity." Not "Prime of Combat."
A common misconception I supose.
Also, Jenobi, if you had read a comic, you'd know that Kreia is wrong about her quote. The Ancient Sith NEVER used SITH SWORDS, not lightsabers. So they could not make KOTOR II Jedi look like children in LIGHTSABER combat.
Comics aren't above games in Canon.
"The Knights of the Old Republic games, because they are Really Righteous, are 2nd degree Canon."
And Lucas himself read and liked Dark Empire.
And it's also canon Vaapad is the deadliest lightsaber form ever created.
Now here is wht I need your source on. Give me a link to where you read these 2 "facts." Or stop saying them, because they aren't true.


Mod note: Edited offensive tone. What did I just write one post up? Please cool down a bit unless you want an official warning. ~M

Nancy Allen``
08-16-2007, 07:19 PM
We see Mace Windu beat Sidious, so however powerful he might be he's not good enough to beat a Jedi Master. So how was he able to fend off Yoda? Remember all the way back to the first film when Obi Wan acted as though he was gravely wounded when Aldaraan was destroyed. I would put it that Yoda was the same, rightfully so. What happened would be enough to greatly affect a non force sensitive. So what about Revan? He was able to learn Force Storm, and he was able to have legions of followers join him willingly, as opposed to having to resort to clones and the like. Finally, he was a great military tactician, Revan would not make the mistakes Sidious made (overconfidence, turning people against him, ect).

tulakhordpwns
08-16-2007, 07:21 PM
Wikipedia can't really be trusted on these things, just so you know. Anyone can edit it, so a quarter of it is fanon.

Actually, to be honest, a lot of things in SW contradict other sources. Sort of ruins the whole debating thing. Again, we have no solid proof of Revan's power. Sidious, we know that he was able to match Yoda, one of the most powerful Jedi to ever live. He was also able to incinerate entire starship fleets with the will of the Force, as well as kill three Jedi masters while fighting four in under fifteen seconds.

Revan was able to defeat Darth Malak, a Sith Lord of average power (as did Obi-Wan as a padawan). Give me a couple more impressive feats of Revan and I may concede.
exactly
Revan has done nothing to prove he can beat Palpatine
Sidious wins

JediMasterJambi
08-16-2007, 07:28 PM
We see Mace Windu beat Sidious, so however powerful he might be he's not good enough to beat a Jedi Master. So how was he able to fend off Yoda?
I actually touched on that in my 2nd post in this thread with 3 points I consider rather good.

Jae Onasi
08-16-2007, 07:56 PM
Comics aren't above games in Canon.
"The Knights of the Old Republic games, because they are Really Righteous, are 2nd degree Canon."


Uh, you do know that was a joke post, don't you?

Alexander the Great
08-16-2007, 07:58 PM
Alrighty Gray baby ^.^ Listen up.
I'm saying that due to the fact that Revan is 4000 years older than Palpatine, hes more powerful. That he lived in an age where Force Userers were merley more powerful, and more attuned to the force becasue they had to rely and improve upon it more. That in that age Lightsaber technuiqes were more emphasized, and thus much more improved upon when compared to those of the movie era. I'm saying that in the 1000 years of peace the Jedi Order experienced, they were weakened, and lost much of their ability as fighters when compared. I'm saying that the KOTOR era was strife with war, (Against thousands of enemies ON PAR with Jedi, 1 vs 1, like Dark Jedi, Mandalorians, Sith, Trentek, etc.) the Jedi of that era were all around MORE POWERFUL IN COMBAT when compared to the Movie era Jedi because of those enemies.

Alright, you're right in the sense that many of the powerful Jedi lived in the ancient era. However, that doesn't mean that powerful Jedi were exclusively ancient. Luke, Yoda, Anakin, Mace, Obi-Wan (sort of), Mara, Kyp, and some others. Similarly, ancient had Vodo, Nomi, Odan-Urr, Ulic, Exar, and some others. There were an equal amount, and you can't really say that just because someone lived in an era they were a god of the Force. Cay Qel-Droma wasn't exactly a prodigy, was he? And Revan was in another era (I think, I'm not sure).

We see Mace Windu beat Sidious, so however powerful he might be he's not good enough to beat a Jedi Master.

Err... Like I said, I'm pretty sure I saw him WTFowning three of them in about a quarter of a minute.

So what about Revan? He was able to learn Force Storm

Sidious was able to learn Force storm, both the wormhole version AND the giant lightning bolts of death version.

he was able to have legions of followers join him willingly, as opposed to having to resort to clones and the like. Finally, he was a great military tactician, Revan would not make the mistakes Sidious made (overconfidence, turning people against him, ect).

That matters in this fight, why? This is apparently a regular one-on-one fight, and Sidious was able to keep the galaxy in tact for quite a while after the Empire was established anyway. The rebellion was only a nuisance until the OT movies, so it was pretty stable for about twenty years. Of course, none of this matters for reasons above.

JediMasterJambi
08-16-2007, 08:04 PM
Uh, you do know that was a joke post, don't you?
I thought the winky at the start would of indicated. ^.^ I put an LOL after it...or atleast I thought I did. Guess not though.

Nancy Allen``
08-16-2007, 08:06 PM
The thing is no one knew he was a Sith, you see this sort of thing happen all the time. A cop goes to bring someone in, they seem cool before they grab their gun. Same thing.

Also take into account age, not just age but Yoda nearly frying him. Or just how proficient Sidious might have been with firearms. We know Jedi\Sith are not invincible to them, AFAIK Revan was trained up as a commando before rejoining the Jedi.

Nikkolas
08-16-2007, 08:16 PM
I'm saying that due to the fact that Revan is 4000 years older than Palpatine, hes more powerful.

That's not factual.

Mandalore lived in the same age.

He isn't stronger than Palpatine.

Ahah. So thats your source?
Allow me to help you out here man. When Lucas says "Prime of The Jedi." This would mean "Prime of Peace, and Prosparity." Not "Prime of Combat."
A common misconception I supose.

I'm sure it is.

Except...you are inserting your own baseless opinion to what Lucas said.

So I don't care.

That he lived in an age where Force Userers were merley more powerful, and more attuned to the force becasue they had to rely and improve upon it more

And Palpatine lived in a time where Jedi were inventing the strongest form of lightsaber combat. When his apprentices could bring enemies to their knees with a finger.

That in that age Lightsaber technuiqes were more emphasized, and thus much more improved upon when compared to those of the movie era.

Dooku was the best Makashi, lightsaber-to-lightsaber, Master in history.

Windu invented a new lightsaber form that emphasized on lightsaber combat with Dark Side users.

I'm saying that in the 1000 years of peace the Jedi Order experienced, they were weakened, and lost much of their ability as fighters when compared.

Tell that to Yoda who can deflect Force lightning with his bare hands or completely neutralize it.

Tell me a KOTOR Jedi doing this canonically?

Try to aviod the double and triple negatives please dude? Its hard to understand you. Comics aren't above games in Canon.
"The Knights of the Old Republic games, because they are Really Righteous, are 2nd degree Canon."

Like I said, comics specifically show and state the Ancient Sith did not use lightsabers.

Whoever wrote that line for Kreia didn't know what they were talking about.

Alexander the Great
08-16-2007, 08:20 PM
The thing is no one knew he was a Sith, you see this sort of thing happen all the time. A cop goes to bring someone in, they seem cool before they grab their gun. Same thing.

Also take into account age, not just age but Yoda nearly frying him. Or just how proficient Sidious might have been with firearms. We know Jedi\Sith are not invincible to them, AFAIK Revan was trained up as a commando before rejoining the Jedi.

No offense, but what does any of that have to do with this? I'm going to reply to it anyway.

It doesn't matter that no one knew he was a Sith. He was the Emperor and managed to rule over everything calmly for twenty years.

Sidious would at least have the skill to be able to deflect a few blaster bolts coming from one person. The reason the Jedi got massacred in the purge was because...

1. They had several Clones on them at once. It's hard to deflect blaster bolts coming from 10+ guns unless you're a Soresu master, some of which also died.
2. The Clones attacked unexpectedly. The Jedi either didn't have a chance to notice they were getting shot at (like Aayla Secura) or were disoriented and confused as to why they were being shot at by their own men.

If it's one person firing at him, it would be ineffective. All Sidious has to do is *deflect, deflect, Force pull* and blasters are out of the question.

Miltiades
08-16-2007, 08:35 PM
Revan was able to defeat Darth Malak, a Sith Lord of average power (as did Obi-Wan as a padawan). Give me a couple more impressive feats of Revan and I may concede.

And who says Malak just had average power? He was the Dark Lord after all, who could only be bested by Revan himself.

And Palpatine lived in a time where Jedi were inventing the strongest form of lightsaber combat. When his apprentices could bring enemies to their knees with a finger.

Only a few Jedi mastered the Vaapad technique. I don't think it's fair to say that Palpatine and his apprentice bested Jedi who had the powerful Vaapad technique.

Dooku was the best Makashi, lightsaber-to-lightsaber, Master in history.

He also was one of the only Makashi users in history. Anyway, although it may be called the lightsaber-to-lightsaber style, it doesn't mean that one who's skilled in this style of combat, automatically wins a lightsaber-to-lightsaber fight with someone who knows nothing or very little about that style. Anakin showed that, as he defeated Dooku with the Djem So style.


Also, Jenobi, if you had read a comic, you'd KNOW that Kreia is WRONG about her quote. The Ancient Sith always used Sith Swords, not lightsabers. So they could not make KOTOR II Jedi look like children in LIGHTSABER combat.

Well, yes, the Ancient Sith preferred the Sith sword above the lightsaber, but not all of them. Like Kreia stated, Tulak Hord used a lightsaber, and was very skilled in fighting with one. Tulak Hord makes no appearances in any comic or novel, so the fact that he used a lightsaber may very well be valid. Other Sith, like Naga Sadow or Ludo Kressh used Sith swords either because of tradition, or because of the visceral feeling of sword cutting through flesh (quoting Wookieepedia).

Nancy Allen``
08-16-2007, 08:48 PM
Actually it does matter that no one knew he was a Sith, as the Jedi would have gone in unprepared. Yoda on the other hand went in, smashed his guards against the wall and challenged him. Had they known Sidious would have been owned.

JediMasterJambi
08-16-2007, 09:00 PM
Alright, you're right in the sense that many of the powerful Jedi lived in the ancient era. However, that doesn't mean that powerful Jedi were exclusively ancient. Luke, Yoda, Anakin, Mace, Obi-Wan (sort of), Mara, Kyp, and some others. Similarly, ancient had Vodo, Nomi, Odan-Urr, Ulic, Exar, and some others. There were an equal amount, and you can't really say that just because someone lived in an era they were a god of the Force. Cay Qel-Droma wasn't exactly a prodigy, was he? And Revan was in another era (I think, I'm not sure).

I have to disagree with "There were an equal amount." Espically considering there were multiple Jedi Enclaves around the KOTOR era, even despite there having been a Jedi Civil War, and a Mandalorian War before KOTOR began.

Now...Consider the following.
The Jedi of The Movie Era DIED OUT. All of them. The Order was lost. And their numbers dwindeled to the point where there wasn't even 10 of them left!
Thus, this would mean that was THE FALL OF THE JEDI. That was their LOW POINT in history.
The reason for this is blatant.
1,000 years of peace.

Now, let me ask you somthing.
Could your Dad beat a Caveman in a fist fight? No. Because due to his eviorment, the Caveman was natuarlly gifted with physical strength.
Could a Spartan beat a Marine in a fist fight? Hell yes he could.
Get my point here?
The Anicent Jedi KNEW what COMBAT was. They experienced it CONSTANTLY against enemies ON PAR with themselves. As time progessed, manny killed eachother, and fewer remained. Anicent skills were lost, combat skills dulled, attunement to the force was less neccesary.
You MUST beable to understand that, as it happens in our world today.


That's not factual.

Mandalore lived in the same age.

He isn't stronger than Palpatine.
Your logic is flawed. Mandalore isn't even a Force-user.

Except...you are inserting your own baseless opinion to what Lucas said.

So I don't care.

O please. I used my common sense and common knowledge of that era. Your just twisting the word to benefit your argument. Everyone knows that it was the era of Peace for the Jedi.
And Palpatine lived in a time where Jedi were inventing the strongest form of lightsaber combat. When his apprentices could bring enemies to their knees with a finger.
1 Word. Juyo.
The ANCIENT INCOMPLETLE TECHNIQUE WHICH VAAPAD IS BASED UPON.
There. Your Vaapad stands for nothing now.
Dooku was the best Makashi, lightsaber-to-lightsaber, Master in history.
Enough. I have proved you wrong at every turn you make.
I have proof. Canon proof which IS EXCEPTED. You don't.
Hes not the best. Get over it.


Mod note: Edited offensive tone. What did I write above? Please cool down a bit unless you want an official warning. ~M

Nikkolas
08-16-2007, 09:14 PM
O please. I used my common sense and common knowledge of that era. Your just twisting the word to benefit your argument. Everyone knows that it was the era of Peace for the Jedi.

Why are you so arrogant to assume everyone agrees with you?

1 Word. Juyo.
The ANCIENT INCOMPLETLE TECHNIQUE WHICH VAAPAD IS BASED UPON.
There. Your Vaapad stands for nothing now.

Not really.

Vaapad, deadliest lightsaber form ever according to Shatterpoint.

I have proof. Canon proof which IS EXCEPTED. You don't

I'm not the one TWISTING the words of George Lucas with my opinion.

You've proven nothing whatsoever.

Yep. Palpatine is the strongest Sith ever according to several sources.

Page 109 from the Dark Empire sourcebook:

"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."

So...

Mod note: Edited offensive tone. What did I write above? Please cool down a bit unless you want an official warning. ~M

Nancy Allen``
08-16-2007, 09:21 PM
The Jedi Exile would own them all, make Sidious choke on his own lightsaber before turning her attention to her former master. Kreia said she was the most powerful of them all, even Revan. If it's good enough for a Sith to say that then it's good enough for me.

JoeDoe 2.0
08-16-2007, 09:26 PM
I wonder if Kreia was telling the truth when she said that the exile was the greatest SHE HAD ever trained, remember she said that Revan was trained by others as well, so he may be more powerful than the Exile.

JediMasterJambi
08-16-2007, 09:44 PM
"Conflicting canon
When two canon sources conflict, one must consider the two sources and compare their origin.

The films and the word of George Lucas are final. They are incontrovertable. When comparing different versions of the films, the most recent are considered the highest canon, and their edits considered Lucas's original intent and final vision. Production notes are considered to be part of the films.
Content published on Starwars.com, including the Databank and blogs by Leland Chee or other VIPs, brings any information to a near-film status of acceptability.
Expanded Universe information and characters not included in the films, including reference books. This also includes the stories presented in games, but not the actual on-screen gameplay or stats.
In some cases, a source may be contradicted into complete non-canon. In others, only part will be contradicted by a higher source, while the rest remains canon. As long as a piece of information comes from a canon source and is not contradicted by a higher source, it is accepted as canon. For example, an EU novel may introduced a starship, but not detail its weaponry. Later, a WOTC RPG supplement may provide game statistics for the starship previously introduced, including its weaponry. So long as the weaponry detailed in the WOTC source are not contradicted by an existing source, they are considered canon. You must be vigilant, however, as Star Wars authors are prone to reintroducing obscure references from the EU, and the WOTC statistics may eventually be overridden. "
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Wookieepedia:Canon_policy

Because DE specifically contradicts the prophecy of Anakin destroying the Sith, not inclusive of Dark Jedi, Sidious was indeed the last Dark Lord of the Sith and he was defeated in ROTJ(The Movie), meaning the prophecy had been fulfilled.

However DE CONTRADICTS this entirely, by bringing back Sidious it specifically means that the Prophecy was wrong and Anakin did not and will not destroy the Sith. Which contradicts Georges MOVIES and thus contradicts G-Canon.

Nikkolas
08-16-2007, 09:53 PM
As I said, Lucas himself read Dark Empire and it's still fully in-continuity.

If we go by your crappy logic, Exar Kun's spirit and Jedi Academy Trilogy don't exist. Ragnos' spirit doesn't exist in the JA video game. The ENTIRE series of Legacy of the Force, still ongoing, also is not allowed to exist.

Yet LFL permits all of it to be canon.

JediMasterJambi
08-16-2007, 10:30 PM
As I said, Lucas himself read Dark Empire and it's still fully in-continuity.

If we go by your logic, Exar Kun's spirit and Jedi Academy Trilogy don't exist. Ragnos' spirit doesn't exist in the JA video game. The ENTIRE series of Legacy of the Force, still ongoing, also is not allowed to exist.

Yet LFL permits all of it to be canon.
Your Canon contradicts my Canon IN THIS DEBATE. My Canon takes priority over your Canon in this debate. LFL or not.
G-Canon overides the comic.
My point stands valid. Yours has been disproven. And its not just my logic. Its all of Wookieepedia.

You just won't except the fact that I can use G-Canon to discredit Dark Empire. Because without Dark Empire, Palpatine is nothing special. These rules are made for debates like this one though, and I CAN apply them here.

Mod note: Edited offensive tone. What did I write above? Please cool down a bit unless you want an official warning. ~M

Alexander the Great
08-16-2007, 10:46 PM
You know, neither side can truly be trusted. SW canon is constantly changing and is skewered. Lucas has contradicted himself on a regular basis.

Nikkolas
08-16-2007, 10:58 PM
Your Canon contradicts my Canon IN THIS DEBATE. My Canon takes priority over your Canon in this debate. LFL or not.

My canon of Lucas saying the PT was the Prime of the Jedi wins over your canon which is nothing.

My point stands valid. Yours has been disproven. And its not just my logic. Its all of Wookieepedia.

Good for Wookie.

The most famous comic book seire sin the EU, one of the most famous trilogies in the EU and the effin' CURRENT MAIN NOVEL SERIES all don't exist according to you and Wookie.

You just won't except the fact that I can use G-Canon to discredit Dark Empire. Because without Dark Empire, Palpatine is nothing special. These rules are made for debates like this one though, and I CAN apply them here

Palpatine has plenty of feats over Revan outside of Dark Empire. it's not really hard. Revan hardly has any concrete displays of power.

JediMasterJambi
08-16-2007, 11:00 PM
You know, neither side can truly be trusted. SW canon is constantly changing and is skewered. Lucas has contradicted himself on a regular basis.
Well this is my most up-to-date contradiction of Lucas. ;)
And it allows me to discredit DE during this debate.
I'm not here to disagree with "How trusted Lucas and his SW Canon is." Truth be told, I just plain don't trust Lucas to do anything right since TSL. I'm here to disagree with "Palpatine can beat Revan." And if the most current SW Canon rules help me in my debate, I'm definatley going to use them.

My canon of Lucas saying the PT was the Prime of the Jedi wins over your canon which is nothing.

I used G-Canon to discredit Dark Empire because the COMIC contradicts the MOVIE.
Whether your misconception of the PT is true OR not. It doesn't stop me from saying Dark Empire contradicts the movie.

The most famous comic book seire sin the EU, one of the most famous trilogies in the EU and the effin' CURRENT MAIN NOVEL SERIES all don't exist according to you and Wookie.

I used the rules laid down by LUCAS (He knows more about starwars then you do, and I do.) to discredit your source FOR THIS DEBATE. This dosn't mean that they don't exist, just that you CAN'T use them to prove your point, or to disprove mine.

Mod note: Edited offensive tone. What did I write above? Please cool down a bit unless you want an official warning. ~M

Arcesious
08-16-2007, 11:12 PM
Why can't we just move on here...?

How about i invent some bizzarre form for Revan to amke him unstoppable, and then the discussion ends with Revan being stronger than sidious, and sidious who again i will say, was a fool.

So revan knows Form XI (form 11 if some of you don't know roman numerals)
From XI is th eunknown, secret form the Tulak Hord used, the ancient form known as gezuntiett (sp?). This ancient form used all powerful sneezes of snotty forcepower, and i must say- Revan had a very bad cold... This form that Revan Ddscovered allowed him to infuse snot into his lightsaber, and kill his enemies with the almighty power of the snotside! :p

There, i hope we're all happy now. Just don't get any colds. :laugh6:

Alexander the Great
08-16-2007, 11:16 PM
Alright, but we can't assume Revan was a god just because he was apart of that era. He gained most of his prestige from his tactics and charisma. That's why I dislike Revan versus threads; his precise amount of power can't be found, only a very rough idea. If you don't know exactly how good a character is, there's no point in debating whether he or she is better than another.

Rogue Nine
08-16-2007, 11:20 PM
Administrator-canon trumps all.

Jambi and Nikkolas, cool your jets, the both of you. If you cannot debate levels of canon without sounding like two school children going "Nuh-uh!" and "Yah-huh!", I'm going to have to shut this thread down.

Play nice or don't play at all.

Arcesious
08-16-2007, 11:31 PM
(Revan still was the awesomest)

Edit: jk. i just had to do that.

JediMasterJambi
08-17-2007, 12:01 AM
Administrator-canon trumps all.

Jambi and Nikkolas, cool your jets, the both of you. If you cannot debate levels of canon without sounding like two school children going "Nuh-uh!" and "Yah-huh!", I'm going to have to shut this thread down.

Play nice or don't play at all.
Fair warning. I think I've said all I can about Canon anyway. I aint changing his mind. ;)


Alright, but we can't assume Revan was a god just because he was apart of that era. He gained most of his prestige from his tactics and charisma. That's why I dislike Revan versus threads; his precise amount of power can't be found, only a very rough idea. If you don't know exactly how good a character is, there's no point in debating whether he or she is better than another.
Alright, accepted. I can't say Revan was a god, and I won't say it. But we can try to figure out (Like you said.) where is power is roughly base.
Now are the following statments agreeable?
Revan was one of the most promising students of the Jedi order during that age.
Jedi of that age were fresh with combat experience due to the War with Exar-kun.
Revan fought in the Mandalorian wars aswell. And is considered the main reason to why the republich won that war.
The Jedi of the KOTOR age would have better experience in lightsaber against lightsaber combat.
The Jedi of the KOTOR age would have better experience with using the force as a weapon.
Raven was the Lord of the Sith until he was ambushed by the jedi, and betrayed by his apprentice.
Revan was one of the most powerful people in an era that had powerful Force-combatants.

Arcesious
08-17-2007, 12:32 AM
And it appears that Revan wins! :)

Sephira
08-17-2007, 02:02 AM
Well this is my most up-to-date contradiction of Lucas. ;)
And it allows me to discredit DE during this debate.
Discrediting DE doesnt remove or renounce its canon status. Besides you arent a lucas arts employee to dispute whats fact and whats not. Besides im still wondering HOW are you going to prove revan > sidious.

Right you have yet to do any of those. I had a very very long arguement and essay which a moderator removed and the contents in that arguement are more than enough to overwhelm your claims

Besides a dark jedi isnt a sith lord. The prophecy states that anakin will destroy the sith and thats what he did. Palpatine in DE is a mere dark jedi if not a p-r-e-t-e-n-d-e-r to the sith legacy as is lumiya and krayt. So no, It DOES not and WILL NOT contradict the movies and even if it did. The canon status shall not be renounced.

Face it, sidious > revan

Btw did you realise sidious was powerful enough to drain the entire planet of byss with the same technique nihilus used on katarr?

Did you realise sidious was powerful enough to lift a SSD which is 19km with telekenesis and bury it into the heart of coruscant?

Or the fact that he annihilated an army of storm troopers who turned on him with one blast of lightning.

Or the fact that the ancient sith spirits saluted and bowed before him and vader stating that palpatine is the greatest and strongest sith who ever lived.

Did you realise that palpatine used a force technique that annihilated an entire rebel fleet destroying thousands of people and destroying thousands of war ships at the same time.

That technique was also capable of ravaging the entire surface of a planet as well as teleporting luke across the galaxy.

Now tell me. what has the ancient sith done which puts them above the PT jedi or sidious? Last i recall is that the ancient sith ludo kressh couldnt block a mere brick naga sadow hurled at him. Also note that most of the "force feats" the ancient sith did were actually done by sith instruments and technology which sidious and luke replicated without the use of them.

Powerful eh?


I'm not here to disagree with "How trusted Lucas and his SW Canon is." Truth be told, I just plain don't trust Lucas to do anything right since TSL. I'm here to disagree with "Palpatine can beat Revan." And if the most current SW Canon rules help me in my debate, I'm definatley going to use them. Right and just where is your "canon rule" source? You have yet to even state anything of how revan is going to beat him


Lol. How old are you?
I used G-Canon to discredit Dark Empire because the COMIC contradicts the MOVIE.
See the above


Whether your misconception of the PT is true OR not. It doesn't stop me from saying Dark Empire contradicts the movie. Uh it doesnt, Theres a distinct difference between a dark jedi, a sith lord and a pretender and seeing that the real sith died out during ROTJ, palpatine returned as a pretender to the sith legacy



I used the rules laid down by LUCAS (He knows more about starwars then you do, and I do.)

And lucas states that sidious is more powerful than just about every other sith lord. Ever read star wars insider? He was asked "why vader and sidious are so popular in the star wars UNIVERSE, His reply?

Because they(vader and palpatine) are the most powerful

How bout the fact that in order to defeat sidious you have to be mace or yoda? Those are statements he made in an interview


to discredit your source FOR THIS DEBATE. This dosn't mean that they don't exist, just that you CAN'T use them to prove your point, or to disprove mine. They disprove yours completely. You have even yet to prove anything and you are resorting to attempt to discredit several sources which state palpatine triumphs over revan.

I dont even recall how you claimed revan beat sidious. all you are doing is trying to discredit nikkolas


Fair warning. I think I've said all I can about Canon anyway. I aint changing his mind. ;)


Revan was one of the most promising students of the Jedi order during that age. Big deal, Ancient sith states palpatine was the strongest sith lord ever

Jedi of that age were fresh with combat experience due to the War with Exar-kun.. Only the council members which were lol easily killed by mere sith assassins


Revan fought in the Mandalorian wars aswell. And is considered the main reason to why the republich won that war. Uh due to his military tactics and technology


The Jedi of the KOTOR age would have better experience in lightsaber against lightsaber combat. Uh proof? They got easily slaughtered by mere mandalorian soldiers


The Jedi of the KOTOR age would have better experience with using the force as a weapon.
Wrong, We have seen the NJO jedi and PT jedi doing greater feats with the force, Cloaking a planet, Killing an army with one swipe of the hand using the force, Pulling down star destroyers, Walking on lava. Etc


Revan was one of the most powerful people in an era that had powerful Force-combatants.
Force-combatants who got easily slaughtered by mere soldiers

We see Mace Windu beat Sidious,
Uh sidious has not fought for 13 years thus his lightsaber skills had become rusty, The fact that he was able to kill 3 of the orders greatest swordsman is remarkable despite not fighting for 13 years since he became chancellor.

. So what about Revan? He was able to learn Force Storm,
Where is the evidence to back up this claim?

Palpatines force storm is ripping a black hole or a wormhole in space which is the most destructive force in the universe.

The other variant is ordinary lightning which sidious has also surpassed revan.

and he was able to have legions of followers join him willingly, as opposed to having to resort to clones and the like.
Right, that is irrelevant to combat prowess

Finally, he was a great military tactician, Revan would not make the mistakes Sidious made (overconfidence, turning people against him, ect).see the above


I'm saying that due to the fact that Revan is 4000 years older than Palpatine, hes more powerful.
Not very good analogy. Your just speculating which is non canon

That he lived in an age where Force Userers were merley more powerful,
More speculation. Where does it state that the jedi of that era are more powerful than that of the PT?

and more attuned to the force becasue they had to rely and improve upon it more.
Err wrong. Even during the 1000 year peace period the jedi council had conflict.

Just to let you know, POTE also stated that yoda is the most powerful foe of dark siders meaning he is stronger than every sith lord before sidious as POTE stated, Now sidious is yodas equal meaning sidious in his prime(TPM)

and that too means he > revan

That in that age Lightsaber technuiqes were more emphasized,
wrong again. The PT jedi still practised and even perfected the traditional lightsaber forms that the kotor era jedi practised and master windu has invented a new form which none of the kotor jedi could come up with : vaapad, the best lightsaber style to use against a dark sider according to star wars insider and shatterpoint which is what made a rusted sidious fall

and thus much more improved upon when compared to those of the movie era.
See the above

I'm saying that in the 1000 years of peace the Jedi Order experienced, they were weakened, and lost much of their ability as fighters when compared. I'm saying that the KOTOR era was strife with war,
See the above, If the jedi were so weak during the PT then the clone wars should have easily wiped them out

(Against thousands of enemies ON PAR with Jedi, 1 vs 1, like Dark Jedi, Mandalorians, Sith, Trentek, etc.) the Jedi of that era were all around MORE POWERFUL IN COMBAT when compared to the Movie era Jedi because of those enemies. Uh no. I take it you have never heard of renegade jedi before or dark jedi? They existed even during the PT era and getting killed by the jedi council.


Besides in the commentary of the SW trilogy Lucas clearly stated the PT jedi are at the peak of combat prowess.


Allow me to help you out here man. When Lucas says "Prime of The Jedi." This would mean "Prime of Peace, and Prosparity." Not "Prime of Combat."
A common misconception I supose. He was referring to combat, nick gillard backs this up too

;)Comics aren't above games in Canon.
Ironic, Games and comics are in the c-canon classification.If i go by your logic darth vader would be able to summon lightning seeing he demonstrated that in the ROTS game which defied the comics and various sources which states he cannot and will not. Gameplay mechanics are not canon, only the cut scenes are.


And i happened to read that "exile is more powerful than revan".

Uh? Firstly the exile has not demonstrated anything remarkable which is relevant to combat prowess. The kotor jedi stated she is just an average jedi and believe me, revan by far is alot more powerful than the jedi exile seeing that he himself has done quite a number of intresting feats, However it still puts them below sidious



Now here is wht I need your source on. Give me a link to where you read these 2 "facts." Or stop saying them, because they aren't true.
you have yet to do that

adamqd
08-17-2007, 05:12 AM
And Lucas states that sidious is more powerful than just about every other Sith lord. Ever read star wars insider? He was asked "why Vader and sidious are so popular in the star wars UNIVERSE, His reply?

Because they(Vader and Palpatine) are the most powerful

How bout the fact that in order to defeat sidious you have to be mace or Yoda? Those are statements he made in an interview




You've got to remember he is promoting his movies and such, he's not gonna say well, actually a character I didn't invent is the most powerful Sith lord, 4000 years before new hope...........

(casual fan/interviewer) Who? When? Why?....

George hired a crew of people at Lucas licensing to deal with new material and its canon-ness, I very much doubt he reads any of it, to tell you the truth when you see him in interviews he seems sick of hearing about SW.

Regarding ROTJ, DE and the PT, his Idea of a prophecy and the "chosen one"
Idea, was not realized until 1999, DE was published in 1992 which would normally of rendered the book n-canon but it hasn't, so were stuck with a contradiction.

to quote another fan: It can also be argued that Anakin indirectly killed Palpatine by fathering the Jedi twins who ultimately destroyed him.

The only way you can decide who is more powerful is if GL himself made a film where Revan and sidious fought to the death, winner..er...wins!

JediMasterJambi
08-17-2007, 05:26 AM
My source for the facts for Canon? Wookieepedia. Like I said. O...AND THE OFFICAL STARWARS SITE. and Wikipedia...and every single Canon source on the net.
My canon were THE MOVIES.
Darth Sidious is a SITH LORD. Not a DARK JEDI. Every source i've ever seen says so.
If you hadn't caught on the "Comics are below games." Was a joke quote.
You "see" the PT Jedi doing great feats because thats where most of the visual media is base upon where Star Wars is concerned. If the movies were set in the KOTOR Era, then you would see the exact opposite.
Errr..The Golden Age of The Jedi. Ever heard of it?
You seriosuly didn't read half my posts. Vaapad. Yha. Based off of the lost and incomplete Juyo From. Which was the ancient Lightsaber form used in KOTOR TSL, and was complete during that age. Guess what? "Pratice" is nothing like the real thing. Every single Jedi of the KOTOR era experieneced THE REAL THING.
As soon as The Clone Wars ended THEY DID GET whiped out.
Peak of combat orowess my shiny metal buttocks. When compared to what? Give me the quote. Nick Gillard is gonna need to show me where he said that too.
One more final thing. Except for the last 2 lines of this reply, I'VE SAID ALL OF THAT BEFORE, IN PREVIOUS POSTS. READ THEM.

Mod note: Edited offensive tone. What did I write above? Please cool down a bit unless you want an official warning. ~M

Sephira
08-17-2007, 06:23 AM
My source for the facts for Canon? Wookieepedia.
Any one could have edited wookie. And you cant quote me because you cannot and will not counter my arguements. All you are doing is discrediting sources

Like I said. O...AND THE OFFICAL STARWARS SITE. and Wikipedia...and every single Canon source on the net.
Even star wars.com disputed sidious as the strongest sith, If you actually DID read every canon source you would have agreed to their statements, Such as dan wallace statement of palpatine triumphing over revan, exar kun and the ancient sith


My canon were THE MOVIES.
Darth Sidious is a SITH LORD. Not a DARK JEDI. Every source i've ever seen says so. Um palpatines status in DE is ambiguous seeing that lucas stated the sith died out during rotj and that palpatine merely returned as a spirit which got into a clone body,

Again i was referring to sidious AFTER rotj. There is NO contradiction as DE is approved by lucas himself and he was the one who authorised its status.

IF there was a contradiction, either he or leland chee will make a statement and thus renouncing its canon status. What ever appears in the visual guide, the nec and the guide to characters is disputed as fact and canon.

Accept it and move on with life


You "see" the PT Jedi doing great feats because thats where most of the visual media is base upon where Star Wars is concerned. If the movies were set in the KOTOR Era, then you would see the exact opposite.
Your clearly wrong, We have seen the PT jedi doing remarkable feats which puts them above kotor jedi who have yet to show anything impressive. The only ones in the kotor era who actually impressed me is nihilus, revan and malak. The rest are inferior to the PT era.

Again G-canon(lucas) stated that the PT jedi are superior to KOTOR jedi in combat prowess. Accept it and move on with life.




Errr..The Golden Age of The Jedi. Ever heard of it?
You seriosuly didn't read half my posts. Vaapad. Yha. Based off of the lost and incomplete Juyo From. Which was the ancient Lightsaber form used in KOTOR TSL, and was complete during that age.
Uh your wrong. While vaapad is to complete juyo, its existence only came into place when mace windu invented it to complete the juyo form.

Source? Shatterpoint, star wars insider and wookiepedia.

And i didnt read half your posts? I have apparantly and im sad to say you havnt even read any of my posts at all.

All the feats i put there which is backed up by novels: AOTC SOTE, sources: DESB POTC, GL proves that PT jedi > kotor jedi and sidious > revan.



Guess what? "Pratice" is nothing like the real thing. Every single Jedi of the KOTOR era experieneced THE REAL THING.
Proof? Because as far as the story goes most of the jedi died in the mandalorian wars when their ships get blowed up by other warships. Most of the jedi died on dantooine before even getting to fight in JCW when malak ordered the bombardment on the academy.

Infact most of the jedi died even before they could sense their enemy nihilus on katarr.

Right they sure are powerful jedi.

And i take it you said kotor jedi's faced the "real thing" your implying they are better experienced than the PT jedi?

I will refute that in the next sentence.

Dooku who has 6 decades of experience in the lightsaber arts lost to anakin skywalker whom is more skillful than him.

Yoda who had 800 years experience of combat stalemated with sidious who only had around 50-60 years of experience.

O, hey, and guess what else? As soon as The Clone Wars ended THEY DID GET whiped out.
Not all of them sadly, Yet many of them still survived as compared to the JCW and SCW where only what? 5 jedi masters survived.

They got wiped out not knowning and unable to use their precognition as sidious clouded their vision with the dark side of the force thus preventing them from for seeing them getting back stabbed by their own soldiers.


Peak of combat orowess my shiny metal buttocks. When compared to what? Give me the quote. Nick Gillard is gonna need to show me where he said that too. Did you even read the link nikkolas gave you? Or are you going to watch the commentary for ROTS and TPM?

Facts > your opinion

One more final thing. Except for the last 2 lines of this reply, I'VE SAID ALL OF THAT BEFORE, IN PREVIOUS POSTS. READ THEM. You havnt backed them up friend. Your speculating without proof

You want more proof? Proof you get

Empire's End, one of the Sith spirits: "He gave up everything to the Dark Side long ago. He has become the greatest who ever lived. He is the strongest who ever lived....I say we give what he wishes."

^ bingo

Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: "No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine."

You've got to remember he is promoting his movies and such, he's not gonna say well, actually a character I didn't invent is the most powerful Sith lord, 4000 years before new hope...........
Well DE's canon status hasnt been retconned nor renounced according to LFL leland chee and lucas

(casual fan/interviewer) Who? When? Why?....
Star wars insider? Rolling stones interview?


George hired a crew of people at Lucas licensing to deal with new material and its canon-ness, I very much doubt he reads any of it, to tell you the truth when you see him in interviews he seems sick of hearing about SW.
He doesnt care about it, true but he allows it as long as it does not contradict his movies and guess what? He read Dark empire according to the interviews and he admired it. Did he renounce its canon status? No, Did he or any lucas arts employee remove its canon status? No

Instead they wrote it in TVG and NEC as facts which has been disputed canon

Regarding ROTJ, DE and the PT, his Idea of a prophecy and the "chosen one"
Idea, was not realized until 1999, DE was published in 1992 which would normally of rendered the book n-canon but it hasn't, so were stuck with a contradiction. Again there is no contradiction. Have you ever heard of the pretender sith? Thats what sidious was in DE, He died in ROTJ thus the sith have become extinct. His return in DE doesn't mean the sith returned. And since the sith became extinct in ROTJ. He is merely a pretender sith .


to quote another fan: It can also be argued that Anakin indirectly killed Palpatine by fathering the Jedi twins who ultimately destroyed him. Well george lucas statement clearly refuted that claim seeing that he stated the sith died out in ROTJ



The only way you can decide who is more powerful is if GL himself made a film where Revan and sidious fought to the death, winner..er...wins!GL HAS decided who is stronger.

He said for some one to defeat sidious you have to on the level of mace or yoda which revan clearly isnt seeing that POTE stated yoda is more powerful than any dark sider save for sidious

Mod note: Edited offensive tone. What did I write above? Please cool down a bit unless you want an official warning. ~M

adamqd
08-17-2007, 06:48 AM
^^^
I've read them yes, does that mean I can't disagree with them, this isn't a "whoever shouts louder, or, sounds like they know what there talking about wins" Thread! But thats not the point, your mis-quoting me and putting answers where there isn't a question. I'm actually agreeing with you on a lot of things! chill...

Sephira
08-17-2007, 07:00 AM
^^^
I've read them yes, does that mean I can't disagree with them, this isn't a "whoever shouts louder, or, sounds like they know what there talking about wins" Thread! But thats not the point, your mis-quoting me and putting answers where there isn't a question. I'm actually agreeing with you on a lot of things! chill...
Uhh ok sry and thanks. I was just inputing alot of things so that jambi guy would get a better explanation. Im very sorry i forgot to specify who am i trying to alert on that matter.

Well its kind of my style where i put in answers when there isnt a question so that that question wouldnt be asked

adamqd
08-17-2007, 07:24 AM
^^^
Cool.

Like you say DE is canon, the same way that the clone wars cartoons and the force unleashed is canon, they are official but translate the characters very differently to the movies. I'd say,

EU Palpy= unstoppable

movie Palpy= pretty special

as Revan is only represented in the more super power fantasy based EU/gaming genre, its hard to tell.
Although I am a Fan-boy so, Revan all the way :D

Nancy Allen``
08-17-2007, 07:43 AM
Mace beat Sidious. That much is fact. Speak to GL if it bothers you that much so the film can be remade where he doesn't.

So, Obama or Hillary? Something that actually matters.

Sephira
08-17-2007, 07:54 AM
Mace beat Sidious. That much is fact.
What irritates me is you do know zoom in on matters. You dont ask yourself what contributed to his defeat and until you understand i will keep repeating

1)Sidious has not fought with the force or used his lightsaber for 13 years and him nearly killing mace windu and killing the other 3 is very remarkable
2) DE sidious will put movie sidious to shame
3) It was a pure lightsaber duel without the usage of force powers at any given point of time and had palpatine been able to execute his other arsenal, mace would have got owned

Speak to GL if it bothers you that much so the film can be remade where he doesn't.

Um no, it doesnt bother me at all but the fact that you do seeing that you dont want to zoom in on matters to take a closer look

And so what mace beat sidious anyways? Sidious is above revan according to c and g canon


^^^
Cool.

Like you say DE is canon, the same way that the clone wars cartoons and the force unleashed is canon, they are official but translate the characters very differently to the movies. I'd say,
True, I agree


EU Palpy= unstoppable
Not exactly unstoppable.

The only known person strong enough to face and defeat DE sidious is NJO luke skywalker



as Revan is only represented in the more super power fantasy based EU/gaming genre, its hard to tell.
Although I am a Fan-boy so, Revan all the way :D Dont get me wrong, I like revan too and im a revan fan but when it comes to debates i have no choice but to go by the facts

Now in all honesty i put revan as 2nd strongest sith due to him(or her in my book) having incredible knowledge of the force which surpasses what has been in the korriban archives during POD.

I am not trying to downplay revan at all, Why? Because she(imo but canonically a he) is 3rd favourite character to me.

Now i would argue that revan > vader even though vader is my favourite character of all SW

Nancy Allen``
08-17-2007, 07:57 AM
Uh huh, and that's why you came in here with all this flame bait is it? Because it didn't bother you?

Sephira
08-17-2007, 08:02 AM
Uh huh, and that's why you came in here with all this flame bait is it? Because it didn't bother you?
Sadly i have yet to flame any one since i have been warned. And no, it doesnt bother me at all because there are facts to state why sidious lost to mace. You just did not bother to read why and refuse to accept the fact that sidious is superior to revan.

I simply do not care if sidious lost to mace in a duel, Why? Because it is irrelevant to this debate.

If your trying to say because mace> sidious, and revan > mace. So therefore revan > sidious.

Then because yoda = sidious and mace > sidious, mace also > yoda when several sources stated yoda is superior to mace windu and where windu is 2nd to yoda

Nancy Allen``
08-17-2007, 08:08 AM
Think back to how Obi Wan appeared wounded when Aldaraan was destroyed. Surely Yoda would be the same given what happened, and the fight was at best a draw. Also keep in mind that the Sith teachings would come from Revan, it was Darth Bane I think who carried on Revan's teachings when he found them. So anything Sidious might have learnt would stem from Revan, and there are things that he hadn't learnt from the redeemed Sith Lord.

Sephira
08-17-2007, 08:21 AM
Also keep in mind that the Sith teachings would come from Revan, it was Darth Bane I think who carried on Revan's teachings when he found them. So anything Sidious might have learnt would stem from Revan, and there are things that he hadn't learnt from the redeemed Sith Lord. Keep in mind that according to DESB sidious had mastered every aspect of the force. Meaning he mastered every force technique that ever existed and sadly revan does not know as much, Revan does not have the force storm(worm hole) technique which is the most powerful dark side technique only palpatine has used

And darth nihilus force killer technique which only nihilus and sidious has.

So yes, sidious knows everything that revan does and knows even more than what the prodigal knight once known

Sidious can simply use the force sever technique to cut revan off the force, so why didnt sidious use it on luke skywalker in DE? Because luke skywalker has mastered the fallanasi looping technique which is the best defence against force sever. And no, revan does not have this defence seeing that he has never met the fallanasi

Nancy Allen``
08-17-2007, 08:26 AM
Remember Endor? A Rebel strike force and the Ewoks defeated the Empire's best. Nuff said on how powerful Sidious might be. And there's one surefire thing that would bring him down more than anything else.

Sephira
08-17-2007, 08:29 AM
Remember Endor? A Rebel strike force and the Ewoks defeated the Empire's best. Nuff said on how powerful Sidious might be. And there's one surefire thing that would bring him down more than anything else.
Seems you are unable to tell the difference between 1 v1 combat between force users and a technological war.

READ and comprehend my posts, thank you because all you have been doing is derailing the topic and telling me things irrelevant to sidious vs revan

Nancy Allen``
08-17-2007, 08:47 AM
Sidious' ego. Palpatine's arrogance would defeat him. We saw this with Yoda, we saw this with both Death Stars, with Luke, the whole lot. He would just rock up expecting to beat Revan, and that would be his downfall.

Sephira
08-17-2007, 08:50 AM
Sidious' ego. Palpatine's arrogance would defeat him. We saw this with Yoda, we saw this with both Death Stars, with Luke, the whole lot. He would just rock up expecting to beat Revan, and that would be his downfall.b Its true that he has been arrogant, But did you realise when he starts to get serious he will not hesitate to kill his enemies?

He instantly killed 3 sith acolytes powerful enough to bring maul back to life with one shot of lightning and turned them to dust at the same time.

Oh and yoda is more powerful than revan which is why sidious had a harder time fighting with him.


Again a technological war bears no relevance to a force fight

Nancy Allen``
08-17-2007, 08:59 AM
Actually given that we are discussing one supposedly inferior force being able to beat one that is meant to be superior it does apply. This is known as Post hoc, propter hoc, and there's also evidence of special pleading, presenting only the evidence on one side.

Sephira
08-17-2007, 09:07 AM
Actually given that we are discussing one supposedly inferior force being able to beat one that is meant to be superior it does apply.
Lol you have yet to prove that other than just speculating.

Bad analogy

This is known as Post hoc, propter hoc, and there's also evidence of special pleading, presenting only the evidence on one side. I have posted enough evidence to dispute sidious as the winner while you or jambi have yet to do the opposite

IF i were to go by your logic. I guess thrawn would smack revan easily in a force fight seeing that he is an even better at military tactics

Nancy Allen``
08-17-2007, 09:13 AM
I have yet to see anything that would suggest that Sidious would beat Revan, regardless of all the 'evidence' you have given. It would seem that all Revan would have to do to win is use force lightning, or deflect it back. Besides which whatever is posted is mostly just opinion anyway, there's no sense in debating with a raving fanboy.

Rogue Nine
08-17-2007, 09:15 AM
It's amusing how heated some people can get over a couple of fictional characters. :rolleyes:

I suggest both of you take a breather and come back when you're a bit calmer and can discuss without sounding like petulant kids.

Sephira
08-17-2007, 09:32 AM
I have yet to see anything that would suggest that Sidious would beat Revan, regardless of all the 'evidence' you have given. It would seem that all Revan would have to do to win is use force lightning,
Ha force lightning which sidious can effortlessly dissipate just like yoda

Despite all my evidence you have yet to accept them. Seems you have missed the part palpatine destroyed a thousand warriors with his force storm technique and drained the entire planet of byss with the same technique nihilus used

Uh you have yet to see how sidious wins? I listed down the feats that sidious did with the force. So how can sidious win? Seeing that he mastered every technique these are a few he can use:

* Deadly Sight
* Drain Knowledge
* Electromagnetic Torpedo
* Force Destruction
* Force Drain
* Force Fear
o Force Horror advanced version of Force Fear
o Force Insanity the most advanced version of Force Horror
* Force Flight
* Force Lightning (Living hands required)
o Chain Lightning variation of Force Lightning
o Force Shock variation of Force Lightning
o Force Storm (lightning) advanced version of Force Lightning
* Force Scream
* Force Slow
o Force Affliction variation of Force Slow
o Force Plague advanced version of Force Slow
* Force Storm (wormhole)
* Force Wound
o Force Choke variation of Force Grip
o Force Grip advanced version of Force Wound
o Force Crush the most advanced version of Force Wound
* Kinetite
* Mechu-deru
* Midichlorian Manipulation
* Mind Control
* Sith Alchemy
* Spear of Midnight Black
* Thought Bomb
* Torture by Chagrin

# Battle Meditation
# Breath Control
# Comprehend Speech
# Force Bellow
# Force Body
# Force Comprehension
# Force Confusion
# Force Deflection (without a lightsaber)
# Force Flash
# Force Illusion
# Force Meld
# Revitalize
# Force Suppression

* Force Breach advanced version of Force Suppression

# Force Throw
# Force Vision
# Force Whirlwind variation of Force Push
# Force Wave advanced version of Force Push

* Force Repulse another advanced version of Force Push

# Force Whisper
# Precognition
# Psychometry
# Sever Force
# Spirit Transference
# Tapas

Sources? Dark empire source book and wookiepedia. So do NOT accuse me of making these up


or deflect it back. Besides which whatever is posted is mostly just opinion anyway, there's no sense in debating with a raving fanboy. 1) you cant deflect a force sever technique or a force storm.

And how can i be a fanboy of sidious when all i did is argue with facts? I said time and again im a vader fanboy and even then ill still admit revan beats vader fair and square.

stoffe
08-17-2007, 09:54 AM
* Force Flight


And yet he was killed by being tossed down a ventilation shaft. How ironic. :)

Seems to me you're comparing characters from two different systems, which is kind of hard since there is no common frame of reference to compare it to. Revan is a d20 Starwars RPG character, and under that system, capped at level 20, it is not possible for anyone to have such a dire list of skills as posted above. Sidious Mk II is a comic(?) book character, and as such is limited only by what limits the author imposes upon him.

Reminds me of the "Star Trek vs Star Wars vs Balylon 5"-wars that flare up every now and then about whose ships are more powerful even though the three settings have completely different technological frameworks. :)

Sephira
08-17-2007, 10:04 AM
And yet he was killed by being tossed down a ventilation shaft. How ironic. :) He didnt have time to react did he, Force flight doesnt literally mean you flying, its just levitating yourself in the air to move over small distances or leap very high but come down slowly

Seems to me you're comparing characters from two different systems, which is kind of hard since there is no common frame of reference to compare it to. Revan is a d20 Starwars RPG character, and under that system, capped at level 20, it is not possible for anyone to have such a dire list of skills as posted above. Sidious Mk II is a comic(?) book character, and as such is limited only by what limits the author imposes upon him.
Not really. I just listed down every force power that existed which sidious has mastered because gameplay mechanics and stats are not canon. If i were to go by stats exar kun would > all other sith lords


Reminds me of the "Star Trek vs Star Wars vs Balylon 5"-wars that flare up every now and then about whose ships are more powerful even though the three settings have completely different technological frameworks. :)Well about the warship thing personally i think star wars would win. Take a look at this chart if you will :)

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/7206/comparisonsi8.gif

on a pic that big.. post a link to it next time. Not all of our members have high-speed... ;) ` Cz

RellioN
08-17-2007, 10:50 AM
Revan owns you all, and all jedi simultaneously, using his Infinite Fleet and superior tactics. And please don't assume that Revan is some stupid naïve light side fanboy, it makes me cry.

Obss Damell
08-17-2007, 10:56 AM
Revan is like....the best. of the best. of the best. noone can beat him, so certainly isidious couldnt

RellioN
08-17-2007, 11:02 AM
indeed. rofl @ sidious fanboys trying to make up excuses for his defeat to Mace Windu. the canon that you seem to worship, doesn't mention any of them anyway.

Sephira
08-17-2007, 11:11 AM
Revan owns you all, and all jedi simultaneously, using his Infinite Fleet and superior tactics. And please don't assume that Revan is some stupid naïve light side fanboy, it makes me cry.
Lolol canon says sidious > revan. Fanboys says revan > sidious. Please, just try to amumse me :) Oh and according to TNEC, revans a lightsider.



Revan is like....the best. of the best. of the best. noone can beat him, so certainly isidious couldnt Lucas says sidious is stronger than revan in his statements, so does KJ anderson and daniel wallace. Try again, sidious > revan

indeed. rofl @ sidious fanboys trying to make up excuses for his defeat to Mace Windu. the canon that you seem to worship, doesn't mention any of them anyway. Nope. They are not made up, they are according to common sense, analogy and logical thinking. Because how can

1)Mace beat sidious when yoda cant seeing that yoda is more powerful than mace windu?

The answer? Vaapad and shatterpoint is what gave mace the upperhand. Notice how sidious dominated mace windu at the start of the fight? Now till shatterpoint kicked in.

What is vaapad and shatterpoint? If your going to actually try to prove revan > sidious im sure you would try to at the least find out

RellioN
08-17-2007, 11:24 AM
Lolol canon says sidious > revan.
lol where exactly?

Fanboys says revan > sidious. Please, just try to amumse me :) Oh and according to TNEC, revans a lightsider. TNEC? Revan is a lightsaber?

Lucas says sidious is stronger than revan in his statements, so does KJ anderson and daniel wallace. Try again, sidious > revanshow me where

Nope. They are not made up, they are according to common sense, analogy and logical thinking. Because how can

1)Mace beat sidious when yoda cant seeing that yoda is more powerful than mace windu?
you think in absolutes. just because guy1 may be stronger than guy2 doesn't mean that guy2 can't kill guy1

The answer? Vaapad and shatterpoint is what gave mace the upperhand. Notice how sidious dominated mace windu at the start of the fight? Now till shatterpoint kicked in.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/macewindu/index.html
"Windu had disarmed Sidious and cornered the treacherous Sith Lord into the frame of his expansive office window. Fearing that Sidious was too powerful to take prisoner -- the Dark Lord still had control of the Senate and courts -- Windu moved to deliver a deathblow. Torn between his loyalties, and needing Palpatine alive to fulfill his quest for arcane knowledge to preserve the life of his beloved, Anakin acted."
Windu owned Sidious if it were not for Anakin. Can you find any where in the official canon that Sidious was "stronger" than Windu? the excuse that it was a setup to lure anakin to the ds isn't mentioned anywhere in the canon.

RellioN
08-17-2007, 11:44 AM
Darth Revan isn't even in canon, he's expanded universe.

http://pics.livejournal.com/scendan/pic/001pfrhg/s640x480

Makes Sidious look like a lil innocent puppy

Sephira
08-17-2007, 11:45 AM
lol where exactly?

TNEC? Revan is a lightsaber?
The new essential chronology.

Find the page yourself. "Yoda was unable to defeat the most powerful sith lord in history"

DESB page 109 "Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."


Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith "to be stronger than the OT sith: "No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine."

Palpatine learned a Force Storm. It is is an attack that rips apart the fabric of existence and space-time. It can do everything from create a wormhole to move a person lightyears to ravage the surface of a planet to annihilate starfleets. Palpatine uses Force lightning with enough power to kill 100 augmented Strormtroopers effortlessly. Same lightning reduced 3 dark siders strong enough to resurrect Darth Maul to charred skeletons.

Empire's End, one of the Ancient Sith spirits: "He gave up everything to the Dark Side long ago. He has become the greatest who ever lived. He is the strongest who ever lived....I say we give what he wishes."

Yes revans a lightsider according to SW databanks and the nec



show me where
Star wars insider, the interviews etc. "In order to face and defeat sidious you have to be on the level of mace and yoda" which revan isnt seeing that POTJ book stated yoda is the most powerful foe against dark siders which means he > revan


you think in absolutes. just because guy1 may be stronger than guy2 doesn't mean that guy2 can't kill guy1 Thats very true, its a fact. Sidious lightning could instantly kill 3 sith acolytes powerful enough to reserruct maul from the dead. Wouldnt the same happen to revan?




Windu owned Sidious if it were not for Anakin. Can you find any where in the official canon that Sidious was "stronger" than Windu? the excuse that it was a setup to lure anakin to the ds isn't mentioned anywhere in the canon. Lmao. Did you realise yoda was more powerful mace windu and that yoda is sidious equal? Did you realise Dark empire sidious is even more powerful than movie sidious? That Dark empire sidious would annihilate mace windu without the need to even draw his lightsaber?

Read Dark empire. Read the nec. Read all the sources then come back and try to debate with me.

And what do you know of canon? You didnt realise revan was a lightsider according to several sources: Tnec and leland chees statement


Darth Revan isn't even in canon, he's expanded universe.

http://pics.livejournal.com/scendan/pic/001pfrhg/s640x480

Makes Sidious look like a lil innocent puppy

HAH, Do you even know whats canon? Revans existence is canon. He is in the C-canon category.

Nope, sidious > revan. Face it


"When Luke Skywalker declared his ultimate standing with the light side of the Force, an enraged Palpatine unleashed another Force Storm over the Pinnacle Moon, obliterating the New Republic fleet and ending the lives of thousands."

"Force storm was a dark side Force power, and possibly the most powerful Force ability known."

"Force storm was actually not a storm; in fact, it was the ability to create hyperspace wormholes via the dark side of the Force. A Force storm could range from the size of a small starship, like a freighter, to huge maws capable of obliterating whole starfleets. The smaller storms appeared more easily controlled from a greater distance. No Force users other than Emperor Palpatine have exhibited this ability."

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/2706/battleofpinnaclebaseua2.jpg

See the picture? Thats palpatines force storm obliterating the entire rebel fleet during the events of dark empire.

Sephira
08-17-2007, 12:02 PM
There, i have settled it, turn back a page and there is enough evidence to place sidious superior to revan according to facts and sources which clearly indicates sidious > revan directly.

Ill be outta down for a day but when i get back i will take care of anybody who attempts to discredit the sources and resort to fanboyism of revan > sidious which will never be proven



Sephira, please do not act like you know everything and act condescending towards everyone else as if your word is gospel. If the only way you can debate is like a petulant child, then you'd best not debate at all.

Consider yourself warned.

~9

RellioN
08-17-2007, 12:22 PM
Yes revans a lightsider according to SW databanks and the nec

I know but not in the games... where you can choose whether revan is ls or ds. The starwars databanks just assume the ls path.

Star wars insider, the interviews etc. "In order to face and defeat sidious you have to be on the level of mace and yoda" which revan isnt seeing that POTJ book stated yoda is the most powerful foe against dark siders which means he > revan
1) if that quote were true you would be able to find it at google which you can't
2) give me a source that i can check myself
3) where does it say that yoda is the most powerful to ever have lived?

That Dark empire sidious would annihilate mace windu without the need to even draw his lightsaber? fanboy proof. You can't possibly prove this. Its your imagination going wild you lil funny fanboy :)


HAH, Do you even know whats canon? your fantasy world

Nope, sidious < revan. Face it


"When Luke Skywalker declared his ultimate standing with the light side of the Force, an enraged Palpatine unleashed another Force Storm over the Pinnacle Moon, obliterating the New Republic fleet and ending the lives of thousands."you fail to mention how that worm hole consumed Palpatine himself as well, lol.

RellioN
08-17-2007, 12:32 PM
"Force storm was actually not a storm; in fact, it was the ability to create hyperspace wormholes via the dark side of the Force. A Force storm could range from the size of a small starship, like a freighter, to huge maws capable of obliterating whole starfleets. The smaller storms appeared more easily controlled from a greater distance. No Force users other than Emperor Palpatine have exhibited this ability."

Those guys at wookiepedia have no idea what a wormhole is. It would obliterated the entire solar system. Also Darth Nihilus was said to be "pure power" and he consumed entire planets, made people into his undead slaves. Thus he's clearly more powerful than Darth Sidious, making canon to contradict itself if it states that Darth Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord to ever have lived. More likely it stated that Darth Sidious was the most powerful Sith Lord in recent times.



Rellion, enough with the flame-baiting. You knew you had your post deleted, yet you posted again with more juvenile insults. Do not do this again.

Consider yourself warned.

~9

Rogue Nine
08-17-2007, 12:41 PM
revan > sidious which will never be proven
Unless George Lucas himself declares it so, in which case all of your 'proof' (you don't cite sources properly, by the by), is all for naught.

Until Lucas himself gives a definitive word on this subject, all (meaning everyone's) of your posturing is just conjecture. You can debate until you're blue in the face that Sidious > Revan or vice versa, but until you hear it from the man himself or an accredited, universally-agreed-upon source, it will still be your opinion, nothing more.

I'm shutting this thread down for now, since it's obvious the parties involved cannot debate without resorting to schoolyard insults and one-upsmanship.