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View Full Version : Demons! Our invisible enemies or another of mans mistakes?


jonathan7
08-28-2007, 08:37 AM
I am currently reading a Christian book on demons. And, well what do the lovely people who inhabbit Kavar's Corner think about demons?

Do they exsist? Or are they just figments of people's imagination, ancient people not understanding mental illnesses such as schizophrenia? What about people speaking in languages that they have never even into contact with yet alone learned?

I will hunt down the link for the audio of an exorcism I heard a while ago. Warning this is extremley freaky, I'm one of those people who generally doesn't get freaked out by anything, I can sit and watch any horror film and not be freaked out at all, if I'm in bed alone at night and here a noise I go and investigae, when in the desert I'll happily walk off on my own... But this video really did freak me out, I swear nothing on earth could produce that kind of noise (although I'm sure some of you will dispute that ;))

Not been able to find the original audo, however here is something of interest; http://paranormal.about.com/od/demonsandexorcism/a/aa051605.htm I am not convinced of the validity of that tho, didn't see anything supernatural there, so is better to maintain a skeptical veiwpoint...

Jae, if you could review the link, and if you don't consider appropriate for a PG 13 forum please remove...

Achilles
08-28-2007, 09:05 AM
I put about as much stock in demons as I do angels :D

Ray Jones
08-28-2007, 09:13 AM
Or are they just figments of people's imagination, ancient people not understanding mental illnesses such as schizophrenia?For instance, yes.

What about people speaking in languages that they have never even into contact with yet alone learned?Who says they don't know the language at all?

Q
08-28-2007, 09:25 AM
Well, my answer should be so obvious it's ridiculous.

But for those of you that still need a hint...


/________________ ;)
\

Ray Jones
08-28-2007, 09:28 AM
*scratches head*


uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhh h

egypt?

Q
08-28-2007, 09:41 AM
Here's the complete picture. (http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o268/qliveur/eqv.gif)

In other words: yeah, I believe in them.

Ray Jones
08-28-2007, 09:44 AM
Hmm. Looks like a simple fractal..?

SilentScope001
08-28-2007, 09:46 AM
I am currently reading a Christian book on demons. And, well what do the lovely people who inhabbit Kavar's Corner think about demons?

Do they exsist? Or are they just figments of people's imagination, ancient people not understanding mental illnesses such as schizophrenia? What about people speaking in languages that they have never even into contact with yet alone learned?

If you can believe in an invisible diety who you can commune with on a daily basis, then that is far more miraclous than a claim that invisible demons exist.

That being said, I think you can't excorise a demon, and all demons usually do is say: "Psst, hey dude, want to steal candy?" And I say, "Hey, that's a nice idea demon, let me do it." Of course, the demon says that I should do evil, but I, myself, approved of the idea. I am just as sinful as that demon. My views of demons are heavily "nerfed".

Q
08-28-2007, 09:56 AM
Hmm. Looks like a simple fractal..?
Maybe. Maybe not. I'm well aware that there will never be any concrete proof either way, but this is the closest that I've come to something tangible in my experience. I can't really explain it any better than that. To me and some others it's obvious. To most others it's not.

Ray Jones
08-28-2007, 10:01 AM
That would mean you can put demons into mathematical equations..

Q
08-28-2007, 10:10 AM
True, but then I believe that all of existence is a gigantic mathematical equation.

Ray Jones
08-28-2007, 11:49 AM
I believe that everything is based on chaos, and it is the essence of all order. So yes I have yet to find something where I doubt it can be put into an equation.

JediMaster12
08-28-2007, 12:37 PM
Demons, a figment of the imagination or are they real? Let's look at this:

Demon
(Greek daimon and daimonion, Lat. daemonium).

The word demon is apparently derived from daio "to divide" or "apportion", originally meant a divine being; it was occasionally applied to the higher gods and goddesses, but was more generally used to denote spiritual beings of a lower order coming between gods and men. It is now practically restricted to the evil spirits.

A similar change and deterioration of meaning has taken place in the Iranian languages in the case of the word daeva. Etymologically this is identical with the Sanskrit deva, by which it is rendered in Neriosengh's version of the Avesta. For the original meaning of the word is "shining one", and it comes from a primitive Aryan root div, which is likewise the source of the Greek Zeus and the Latin deus. But whereas the devas of Indian theology are good and beneficent gods, the daevas of the Avesta are hateful spirits of evil.

Demon is often confused with devil as both qualify the evil spirits or fallen angels. The precise distinction between the two terms in ecclesiastical usage may be found in the decree of the Fourth Lateran Council:

"Diabolus enim et alii daemones" (The devil and the other demons), means that the chief of the demons is called the devil, also found in Matthew 25:41, "the Devil and his angels". This distinction is observed in the Vulgate New Testament, where diabolus represents the Greek diabolos and in almost every instance refers to Satan himself, while his subordinate angels are described, in accordance with the Greek, as daemones or daemonia. It does not indicate a difference of nature; for Satan is clearly included among the daemones in James 2:19 and in Luke 11:15-18.

For all those that think wikipedia is the greatest thing, the definition is pretty much the same. I would tend to think that demons are beings that form because of base fears that we as men have. I know it sounds like psychobabble but when we have phrases like you need to deal with your own demons or demons of the past, we often refer to something horrific or a fear that became reality. The little guys with the pitchforks and pointy tails are a more comic version representation. That is just what I think.

John Galt
08-28-2007, 04:30 PM
This is one of the main reasons I quit christianity in the first place.

There's simply no way to prove they exist, much less that they tell us to do "bad things." What little pseudo-empirical evidence that the belief in demons was first justified by has been entirely debunked by the modern understanding of psychology and various mental disorders.

mimartin
08-28-2007, 04:53 PM
Demons, a figment of the imagination or are they real? I'll go with figment of the imagination.

I would tend to think that demons are beings that form because of base fears that we as men have. I would tend to agree with this with these small changes. Demons are beings that form, in the persons mind, because of base fear that we as humans have.

Qui-Gon Glenn
08-29-2007, 03:46 AM
I'll go with figment of the imagination.

I would tend to agree with this with these small changes. Demons are beings that form, in the persons mind, because of base fear that we as humans have.

Which I think is the correct case, but does not make the "demon" any less real. The demon is there, inside, and can be dealt with however the possessed deems. Yet, this demon is not anything more than the fear s/he is built from. False Evidence Appearing Real. Until the demon leaps from the mind with fangs and all, that's a figment.

Why would a perfect being create chosen beings, and then beset upon them a multitude of infinitely more powerful antagonists? What order does this serve? How does this help things? Makes no sense at all, especially if the perfect being is also a "good" or "loving" or "beneficient" being.

Does sound like good theatre though... good propaganda. Good for quelling the masses.

Q
08-29-2007, 11:36 AM
^^^Or just excellent entertainment for a very bored Supreme Being.;)

Web Rider
08-29-2007, 11:39 AM
I take the same stance on mytholigical creatures, this ranges as far as centaurs to demons to angels and everything in between, that I do on aliens. Until I get some actual proof, like I see one, or pictures of them are in respectable papers, I give a great big "maybe".

Those mind-trip demon possessions I think are just the church getting involved in places where neurological health and science should be.

As for those "demonic" languages you hear going about now and then, well, until it's a teachable language, it's IMO, no different from those languages twins make up, just sort of a random phenomenon, something a couple people made up to make themselves feel special....like Otherkin.

Dagobahn Eagle
08-29-2007, 12:34 PM
What about people speaking in languages that they have never even into contact with yet alone learned?Any solid evidence this has actually happened? If so, what language was being spoken? And how did the witnesses know what language it was? And if they could identify it, who's to say the 'possessed' had not come into contact with it? And if they could not identify it, who's to say it was not gibberish?

'Demonic possession' is a fantasy created by people who didn't understand mental illness, just like Thor and Zeus were created by people who didn't understand lightning and trolls by people who couldn't come to terms with the fact that when you go alone into the woods, sometimes natural things happen to you and you don't come back. As for people behaving oddly when being exorcised, I'd say this is not spooky at all. If I was being tortured exorcised by a bunch of nutters Holy Men, and I knew they'd not stop hurting exorcising me until the demon was cast out, I'd pretend to be possessed and then freed so they'd stop. People who are exorcised typically belong to religious communities, and thus know what possessed people act like when being exorcised. Heck, even I have seen an exorcism or two on TV and would have a rudimentary idea of how to act (I'd start speaking in Norwegian or some foreign language, deeply growl 'I'll never come out of him', try to bite the exorcists, etc.).

It's like the witch hunts of old - the 'witches' knew the only way the torture would stop was with a confession, so they confessed, just for the pain to end. Torture is such an effective tool:rolleyes:.

Jae Onasi
08-29-2007, 01:07 PM
I've lived long enough to see evil and malevolence in many forms (although the things I've seen have been entirely human-wrought), including hearing about manifestations of evil from some close friends who I would never consider to be susceptible to 'seeing things'. I think there is a whole spectrum of evil that we don't fully understand at this point.

I think a great deal of what has been called demon possession in the past has been mental illness (particularly schizophrenia). Until about 60-ish years ago we really had no way to treat mental illness pharmacologically, hence the development of other techniques in an attempt to try to control it somehow so that these people didn't hurt themselves and others.

Videos are hard to count as evidence anymore because of all the things we can now do with special effects, CGI, sound editing, and so forth.

jonathan7
08-29-2007, 07:46 PM
I've lived long enough to see evil and malevolence in many forms (although the things I've seen have been entirely human-wrought), including hearing about manifestations of evil from some close friends who I would never consider to be susceptible to 'seeing things'. I think there is a whole spectrum of evil that we don't fully understand at this point.

I think a great deal of what has been called demon possession in the past has been mental illness (particularly schizophrenia). Until about 60-ish years ago we really had no way to treat mental illness pharmacologically, hence the development of other techniques in an attempt to try to control it somehow so that these people didn't hurt themselves and others.

Videos are hard to count as evidence anymore because of all the things we can now do with special effects, CGI, sound editing, and so forth.

Hehe, I had a feeling we may agree on this ;-)

Any solid evidence this has actually happened? If so, what language was being spoken? And how did the witnesses know what language it was? And if they could identify it, who's to say the 'possessed' had not come into contact with it? And if they could not identify it, who's to say it was not gibberish?

What would be solid evidence in your mind? I'm sure I can hunt you down eyewitness testimony, put I would presume you would shoot that down quite quickly...

Ray Jones
08-30-2007, 05:17 AM
A good start would be solid evidence for the existence of a demon within a possessed person. Maybe an anal probe with a small door that has the demon's fingerprints all over its knob.

Samuel Dravis
08-30-2007, 12:21 PM
In my experience, all evil has be perpetrated by humans at other humans. Some people, as Jae has said, may not be completely responsible for their actions, but that does not change the fact they did it and there is no solid evidence of anything else at work. "Devil made me do it!" says the muderer, and we're somehow supposed to believe the testimony of a genuine psychopath who has vested reason in putting the blame on anything else? "The Devil made him do it!" says the priest, and we're supposed to believe he is objective when it is a tenet of his faith that these devils exist?

So, as far as I can tell, demons don't exist and if such beings did, we have no evidence they are actually evil. If something can't even be shown to exist in the first place, it's fairly unlikely you have a way of knowing the moral quality of its hypothetical actions...

mimartin
08-30-2007, 12:51 PM
In my experience, all evil has be perpetrated by humans at other humans.
While I'd tend to agree with this statement and the rest of what you wrote that does not explain when nature shows its nastier side. Take the lions of Tsavo for instances. Some believe that they were actually possessed by evil itself to kill 135 people in 9 months.
Field Musem (http://www.fieldmuseum.org/exhibits/exhibit_sites/tsavo/maneaters.html)

I however would agree more that they just found a constant supply of food and would equate them to senior citizens at a free buffet.
National Geographic (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/02/0211_030211_tsavolions.html)

Jvstice
08-30-2007, 01:05 PM
Jae: I'd agree with that. We don't need even more excuses to do the harm we do to other humans.

Nancy Allen``
08-30-2007, 06:32 PM
I'm not sure if there really are demons, monsters, but certainly you look at some people who revel in the evil acts they commit and the paralell is of people in religious texts that have been posessed by demons.