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Alexander the Great
08-20-2007, 07:53 PM
Mod note: Conversation split into its own thread from the Bastila vs. Exile (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=180910) thread since this has nothing to do with that topic. ~M


By the way, on another note...
Yoda > Sidious in terms of pure power. Basically says so in Dark Rendezvous.
Dooku > Anakin in terms of dueling skill. I know Anakin lopped off his hands in RotS, but Sidious specifically told him not to kill Anakin. He also said that if Anakin won, he would spare Dooku. Knowing this, Dooku wouldn't have to try his hardest, or else he might kill Anakin and Sidious would've gotten pissed. So as he was maintaining enough skill to match Anakin's, Anakin suddenly got a lot stronger in a short amount of time due to his rage and overwhelmed Dooku before he had the chance to step up to it.
Mace > Sidious in terms of dueling skill. Sidious' strength was in his Force ability, so he would most likely beat Mace in that. But Mace was better in saber combat, on par with Dooku, actually.

Sephira
08-21-2007, 06:33 AM
Right, so everyone here agrees that the Exile wins. The only person who challenged that couldn't, or at least hasn't, given a rebuttal to the latest facts.

By the way, on another note...
Yoda > Sidious in terms of pure power.
Um no, according to Lucas, yoda is equal to ROTS sidious and TNEC. While yoda is firmly below Dark empire sidious


Dooku > Anakin in terms of dueling skill. I know Anakin lopped off his hands in RotS, but Sidious specifically told him not to kill Anakin. He also said that if Anakin won, he would spare Dooku. Knowing this, Dooku wouldn't have to try his hardest, or else he might kill Anakin and Sidious would've gotten pissed. So as he was maintaining enough skill to match Anakin's, Anakin suddenly got a lot stronger in a short amount of time due to his rage and overwhelmed Dooku before he had the chance to step up to it.
Uh your clearly wrong here. The ROTS novel stated that all of dookus experience and skills have been surpased by anakin skywalker, The novel clearly stated dooku was fighting at his best during the invisible hand duel so anakin > dooku in dueling.

If you read up you would know a skillful djem so user(anakin) would be a more efficient dueler than one who uses makashi( dooku) as djem so relies of brute force and speed while makashi is a parrying technique


Mace > Sidious in terms of dueling skill.
No, as of ROTS sidious and mace are equals in the lightsaber art
. Mace won due to shatterpoint and vaapad and if we are talking about TPM sidious whom is above mace windu in dueling, he can move faster than the eye can see

Sidious' strength was in his Force ability, so he would most likely beat Mace in that. But Mace was better in saber combat, on par with Dooku, actually. Mace is actually above dooku

Alexander the Great
09-18-2007, 06:45 PM
Um no, according to Lucas, yoda is equal to ROTS sidious and TNEC. While yoda is firmly below Dark empire sidious

Uh your clearly wrong here. The ROTS novel stated that all of dookus experience and skills have been surpased by anakin skywalker, The novel clearly stated dooku was fighting at his best during the invisible hand duel so anakin > dooku in dueling.

If you read up you would know a skillful djem so user(anakin) would be a more efficient dueler than one who uses makashi( dooku) as djem so relies of brute force and speed while makashi is a parrying technique

No, as of ROTS sidious and mace are equals in the lightsaber art
. Mace won due to shatterpoint and vaapad and if we are talking about TPM sidious whom is above mace windu in dueling, he can move faster than the eye can see
Mace is actually above dooku

Since this thread's been revived (Which was really unnecessary, considering that everyone agreed who would win), let me go ahead and reply to some of this.

1. Yoda=Sidious: DE Sidious, obviously. RotS Sidious, Yoda had more power in terms of RAW power. I'm not saying Yoda could have beaten him if the duel had been to the end, which he might have, but Yoda did have more unharnessed power. The reason he didn't WTFpwn Sidious in RotS was because he was a light-sider.

2. Anakin>Dooku: Anakin beat Dooku because...

-Dooku had to be very careful not to kill Anakin, or Sidious would get very pissed. And Dooku didn't really want to beat him, neither did Sidious. They wanted to draw out his full power and see if he's actually ready. He overwhelmed Dooku, giving Dooku the thoughts stated in the RotS novel, but he never expected Anakin to actually get in "t3h z0n3" as some call it, and bring him down. Sidious says "Make the contest look real.", and that's exactly what he did. All he was trying to do is see if Anakin could keep him sweating for a while.
-Anakin, like you said, used Djem-So, which gives him an edge over Makashi. I'm saying that Dooku is probably an overall better duelist than Anakin, but he just lost against him. There's a difference.
-Dooku wouldn't have to win the fight. Sidious specifically tells him that if he lost, he would make sure Dooku was spared.

3. Sidious>Mace: Winning because of his lightsaber form and a special effect that he has isn't exactly cheating or anything. As far as I'm concerned, the fact that he had those characteristics makes him a better duelist than Sidious.

4. Mace > Dooku: Which is stated... Where? In Dark Rendezvous, it says "The only one who could even be considered EQUAL to Dooku was Mace..." (Rough quote, but that's exactly what it says in paraphrased form)

That shows that they're equals, at least. If either one is better, it's probably Dooku, considering that he beat Mace in a sparring duel back in his Jedi days, but Mace might have stepped up to his equal.

Sephira
09-21-2007, 06:46 AM
Since this thread's been revived (Which was really unnecessary, considering that everyone agreed who would win), let me go ahead and reply to some of this.

1. Yoda=Sidious: DE Sidious, obviously. RotS Sidious, Yoda had more power in terms of RAW power. I'm not saying Yoda could have beaten him if the duel had been to the end, which he might have, but Yoda did have more unharnessed power. The reason he didn't WTFpwn Sidious in RotS was because he was a light-sider. Uh no, Firstly DE sidious puts his former ROTS incarnation to great shame seeing that he could create force storms which can devour an entire planet as well as annihilate an entire rebel armada.

Did you know that DE sidious has the same technique darth nihilus has? That he drained the entire planet of byss over the years to replenish his energies as a spirit? That he has mastered every aspect of the force.

And your assertion that yoda wouldnt have "wtf owned" the emperor in the movie because he was a lightsider is a completely ridiculous and baseless assumption, do you have ANYTHING to back that up? Or are you speculating?

We have absolutely no idea how yoda would turned out to be if he was a dark sider but again, his 800 years of experience couldnt help him defeat a sith lord which has only about 50-60 years of experience?

Whats you point?








TNEC already stated yoda with all his power was unable to defeat sidious so your point is moot

2. Anakin>Dooku: Anakin beat Dooku because... Because the ROTS novel stated anakin is above dooku in saber combat thus being more skillful and tooling count dooku, Theres also the fact that anakins saber form djem so relies on brute strength and it is effective against dookus makashi which is a fencing form

-Dooku had to be very careful not to kill Anakin, or Sidious would get very pissed. And Dooku didn't really want to beat him, neither did Sidious. They wanted to draw out his full power and see if he's actually ready. He overwhelmed Dooku, giving Dooku the thoughts stated in the RotS novel,
Theres also the fact that anakin is superior to dooku as stated by the novel, All of dookus saber experience could not withstand the sheer power of anakins djem so and skill as the novel indicated


but he never expected Anakin to actually get in "t3h z0n3" as some call it, and bring him down. Sidious says "Make the contest look real.", and that's exactly what he did. All he was trying to do is see if Anakin could keep him sweating for a while. That doesnt mean dooku would purposely let his guard down especially against somebody who has the potential to be twice as powerful as the emperor and due to the fact that anakin is stated to be a lightsaber prodigy


-Anakin, like you said, used Djem-So, which gives him an edge over Makashi. I'm saying that Dooku is probably an overall better duelist than Anakin, but he just lost against him. There's a difference.
Do you have anything to back that up? Because anakin tooled cin drallig whom is on par with count dooku and prehaps even better because cin drallig mastered every lightsaber form to its highest degree save for vaapad


-Dooku wouldn't have to win the fight. Sidious specifically tells him that if he lost, he would make sure Dooku was spared.[/QUOTE] So your basically saying that the fight was a complete fluke?

3. Sidious>Mace: Winning because of his lightsaber form and a special effect that he has isn't exactly cheating or anything. As far as I'm concerned, the fact that he had those characteristics makes him a better duelist than Sidious. That at the very least is debatable, why? Because firstly sidious was able to fight and handle mace for a while as well as killing 3 jedi masters swiftly DESPITE the fact that he has not fought with the force and lightsaber for 13 years.

But yes, in this case mace IS the better duelist, But again better than which incarnation? DE sidious could move faster than the eye can see and his duel with luke on the eclipse above pinnacle base was so phenominal that the lightsaber impacts killed nearby imperial officers

4. Mace > Dooku: Which is stated... Where? In Dark Rendezvous, it says "The only one who could even be considered EQUAL to Dooku was Mace..." (Rough quote, but that's exactly what it says in paraphrased form)

That shows that they're equals, at least. If either one is better, it's probably Dooku, considering that he beat Mace in a sparring duel back in his Jedi days, but Mace might have stepped up to his equal. And whats your point? It is very well known mace > dooku

Rogue Warrior
09-21-2007, 08:08 AM
Revan and the Exile over all of them.

JoeDoe 2.0
09-21-2007, 12:31 PM
Here we go again :roleyess:

Alexander the Great
09-21-2007, 05:33 PM
Uh no, Firstly DE sidious puts his former ROTS incarnation to great shame seeing that he could create force storms which can devour an entire planet as well as annihilate an entire rebel armada.

Did you know that DE sidious has the same technique darth nihilus has? That he drained the entire planet of byss over the years to replenish his energies as a spirit? That he has mastered every aspect of the force.

And your assertion that yoda wouldnt have "wtf owned" the emperor in the movie because he was a lightsider is a completely ridiculous and baseless assumption, do you have ANYTHING to back that up? Or are you speculating?

We have absolutely no idea how yoda would turned out to be if he was a dark sider but again, his 800 years of experience couldnt help him defeat a sith lord which has only about 50-60 years of experience?

Whats you point?

TNEC already stated yoda with all his power was unable to defeat sidious so your point is moot

Dark Rendezvous: Should the Jedi Master turn to the dark side, he would annihilate Sidious.... That's a narrator quote. If that applies to Anakin and Dooku, it would apply to Yoda and Sidious. Think about it. If Yoda and Sidious are both dark-siders, they'd be on the same ground (so to speak). If Yoda could destroy him when they're both dark-siders, that shows that he has more raw power than Sidious.

Because the ROTS novel stated anakin is above dooku in saber combat thus being more skillful and tooling count dooku, Theres also the fact that anakins saber form djem so relies on brute strength and it is effective against dookus makashi which is a fencing form
Theres also the fact that anakin is superior to dooku as stated by the novel, All of dookus saber experience could not withstand the sheer power of anakins djem so and skill as the novel indicated

Sorry for any misconceptions, but I wasn't saying Dooku could win in every fight against Anakin. But anyone who could hold their own against Yoda, and is considered equal to Mace, would be put above Anakin. Anakin had a ton of advantages in the fight, though.

That doesnt mean dooku would purposely let his guard down especially against somebody who has the potential to be twice as powerful as the emperor and due to the fact that anakin is stated to be a lightsaber prodigy

I didn't say he would purposefully let his guard down. Have you read Labyrinth of Evil? Sidious knew Anakin would someday be stronger than them both, since he had the knowledge of Anakin being made of the Force. Dooku did not. That fight was essentially supposed to be a test for Anakin, and to kill Obi-Wan. Nothing more. Dooku was basically supposed to see if he could defeat Anakin easily, or if Anakin could defeat him. Anakin was stronger and younger than Dooku, but at that point, Dooku would have to draw out every ounce of energy from Anakin. Anakin got in t3h z0ne, and that's when he has the power to beat Dooku.

Do you have anything to back that up? Because anakin tooled cin drallig whom is on par with count dooku and prehaps even better because cin drallig mastered every lightsaber form to its highest degree save for vaapad

Where is that stated? I know he mastered every form besides Form VII, but not to the highest degree. The highest degree would be Dooku with Makashi, Obi-Wan or Luminara with Soresu, or Anakin with Djem So. Cin Drallig was pretty much a Jedi trainer. He's definitely not better than Dooku, if DR says that the only Jedi that could be considered equal to Dooku on neutral ground, besides Yoda, was Mace Windu.

So your basically saying that the fight was a complete fluke?

Not really. All I'm saying is that Anakin was at his highest point in power in that fight, and Dooku obviously wasn't, since he wasn't pressing forward onto Anakin, but being pushed back.

But yes, in this case mace IS the better duelist, But again better than which incarnation? DE sidious could move faster than the eye can see and his duel with luke on the eclipse above pinnacle base was so phenominal that the lightsaber impacts killed nearby imperial officers

Oh, DE Sidious? Yeah, you're right on that. He could exterminate practically every Jedi in history. I was referring to RotS Sidious, who lost to Mace in a fair fight.

And whats your point? It is very well known mace > dooku

Where'd you find that bit of information? I posted why they're equal, and that would be my point.

[By the way, I'm not trying to suck up or anything, but I'll commend you for your debating.]

Weave
09-22-2007, 06:25 AM
Here we go again :roleyess:

Yup.
Might as well get comfortable. :drama:

As far as I'm concerned... their strength (all the Jedi/Sith that are being discussed as of yet) is irrelevant unless they know how to adapt to certain situations.

PoiuyWired
09-22-2007, 03:47 PM
Well, Define most powerful of that instant? Is it raw power we are talking about, or do we take everything into account, including resources, psychology and items?

Repost:
All you need is One Emo Gizka. Emo Gizka keeps killing himself, and keeps duplicating. That would consume anything in the confined ship, food, air and even space. And if the Jedi/Sith is going off with 'sabers/lightnings/chokes/etc then they multiply even faster!!

For best effect include boxes of broken glass, and play cheesy emo music. Images of ex helps also.

Alexander the Great
09-22-2007, 03:52 PM
That's exactly why A>B>C doesn't work. It's not just raw power that determines a fight, either. If it was, Anakin would've beaten Obi-Wan before he got the terrain advantage, Yoda would've beaten Sidious, Vader would've beaten Luke in RotJ, etc.

Ctrl Alt Del
09-23-2007, 03:38 PM
So your basically saying that the fight was a complete fluke?


That's it. On the book "The Revenge of the Sith", by Matthew Stover, it's said that, when the Jedi boarded the Invisible Hand, Sidious and Dooku were having a conversation wherein the Chancellor demanded that the count kill Obi-Wan, but spare Anakin, and lose the battle. Once captured, he would remain as a war prisoner and very safe on Coruscant, where he would stay until the rise of the Empire, where the Emperor would "forgive" his past crimes and he would be freed to govern by Palpatine side.

Whether or not Dooku could even win Anakin on a duel, remains undisclosed.

Alexander the Great
09-23-2007, 03:56 PM
That's it. On the book "The Revenge of the Sith", by Matthew Stover, it's said that, when the Jedi boarded the Invisible Hand, Sidious and Dooku were having a conversation wherein the Chancellor demanded that the count kill Obi-Wan, but spare Anakin, and lose the battle. Once captured, he would remain as a war prisoner and very safe on Coruscant, where he would stay until the rise of the Empire, where the Emperor would "forgive" his past crimes and he would be freed to govern by Palpatine side.

Whether or not Dooku could even win Anakin on a duel, remains undisclosed.

Thanks for clearing that up. Could you give me the page of that passage if you have it? I want to read up a little more on the fight.

Rev7
09-23-2007, 05:05 PM
Obi-Wan was the most powerful throughout the who saga... me thinks

Ctrl Alt Del
09-23-2007, 05:41 PM
Thanks for clearing that up. Could you give me the page of that passage if you have it? I want to read up a little more on the fight.

Sure. Though I would think that the book on portuguese wouldn't fit you. Ah, colonization... :rolleyes:

Alexander the Great
09-24-2007, 10:01 PM
Sure. Though I would think that the book on portuguese wouldn't fit you. Ah, colonization... :rolleyes:

Sure, I can talk Portugal, no problem!

I just meant the page number.

Obi-Wan was the most powerful throughout the who saga... me thinks

Sure, which is why he gets WTFpwned by Dooku.

Rev7
09-25-2007, 12:15 AM
Hey, NOBODY is perfect, overall Obi- Wan was one of the strongest, if not the strongest Jedi of all time. Anakin defeated Dooku when he was on the light side, BUT Obi-Wan defeated Anakin in his darkness, on a Sith world to top it off!!

Alexander the Great
09-25-2007, 12:50 AM
1. Yoda was the grandmaster, which meant he was the TOP and most POWERFUL Jedi.
2. Mace Windu was just under Yoda and was obviously better than Obi-Wan.
3. Obi-Wan defeated Anakin because Anakin was overconfident. He jumped straight at Obi-Wan through his rage. Mustafar isn't a Sith world, just a giant molten rock. It's nearly impossible to block an Ataru strike when you're using an offensive form and jumping at someone. Had the fight continued, Anakin would've most likely broken through and won.
4. Luke achieved Anakin's full potential and became the strongest Jedi to ever live, so that puts him above Obi-Wan.

And those are just a few. There are plenty more that are far above Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan wasn't supposed to be an extremely powerful Jedi. He was supposed to be extremely skilled, but the reason he was there was to be the ideal Jedi in terms of philosophies. I'm not saying he was a weakling. He was probably in the top ten or five of the PT era, but he was far from being the best. I could understand why you'd like him as a Jedi, though.

Corinthian
09-25-2007, 02:29 AM
Obi-Wan could probably win in most straight-up lightsaber duels simply because of his overwhelming patience and mastery of Soresu. Heck, he managed to defeat General Grievous, the most prolific Jedi-Killer in a lightsaber duel. If Grievous had stood and fought instead of run, he would have been cut to ribbons instead of just had his organs incinerated. However, in a Force Duel, Obi-Wan would be at a severe disadvantage due to his comparable lack of power when compared to Windu, Sidious, Yoda, or Vader.

I think if Vader had used his Force power on Mustafar, he probably would have killed Obi-Wan. However, his desire to slake his own ego and prove that he was more powerful in every way was his undoing.

Anyway, in a duel of both The Force and Lightsaber, of the ones up there, it'd be probably be Windu. Yoda lost to Sidious and was forced to flee, while without the intervention of Anakin, Sidious would have been killed, one way or another. You can argue that Dooku and Sidious threw their fights, but Windu is the only one who managed to defeat Sidious in a fight.

Face it, here's how it goes.

Windu>Sidious>Yoda>Dooku. So, here's the question - could Anakin beat Yoda? I would say no. Yoda is too powerful in lightsaber and force combat to be beaten by Vader, he gave Sidious, Vader's master, a good fight, and by the way of the Sith, if Anakin were really more powerful than Sidious, he would have killed him.

Rogue Warrior
09-25-2007, 05:52 AM
How come Vader did not try and kill his master? I think he hated what he had been turned into, which goes to motive.

PoiuyWired
09-25-2007, 10:53 AM
How come Vader did not try and kill his master? I think he hated what he had been turned into, which goes to motive.

Wha?
1) He tried to set up a Tag Team Battle with his son against Palpy.

2) He released Palpy back to the natural habitat on DSII.

There are probably other times.

Sephira
09-25-2007, 01:27 PM
Dark Rendezvous: Should the Jedi Master turn to the dark side, he would annihilate Sidious.... That's a narrator quote. If that applies to Anakin and Dooku, it would apply to Yoda and Sidious. Think about it. If Yoda and Sidious are both dark-siders, they'd be on the same ground (so to speak). If Yoda could destroy him when they're both dark-siders, that shows that he has more raw power than Sidious. ok i concede on this point



Sorry for any misconceptions, but I wasn't saying Dooku could win in every fight against Anakin. But anyone who could hold their own against Yoda, and is considered equal to Mace, would be put above Anakin. Anakin had a ton of advantages in the fight, though. Wrong, and just to let you know, the novel states anakin > dooku in saber dueling while that being further being backed up by george lucas saying anakin beat dooku fairly and as far as canon goes george lucas G-canon > all others



I didn't say he would purposefully let his guard down. Have you read Labyrinth of Evil? Sidious knew Anakin would someday be stronger than them both,
Right you dont need to tell me something which lucas himselef said so that anakin will be twice as powerful as sidious

since he had the knowledge of Anakin being made of the Force. Dooku did not. That fight was essentially supposed to be a test for Anakin, and to kill Obi-Wan. Nothing more. Dooku was basically supposed to see if he could defeat Anakin easily, or if Anakin could defeat him. Anakin was stronger and younger than Dooku, but at that point, Dooku would have to draw out every ounce of energy from Anakin. Anakin got in t3h z0ne, and that's when he has the power to beat Dooku. And thereby you just backed me up of anakin besting dooku rather than your claim of dooku being the better dueler. Where did lucas say that? In an interview, try checking star wars insider




Where is that stated?
nick gillard in SWI

I know he mastered every form besides Form VII, but not to the highest degree. The highest degree would be Dooku with Makashi, Obi-Wan or Luminara with Soresu, or Anakin with Djem So. Cin Drallig was pretty much a Jedi trainer. He's definitely not better than Dooku, if DR says that the only Jedi that could be considered equal to Dooku on neutral ground, besides Yoda, was Mace Windu. see the above



Not really. All I'm saying is that Anakin was at his highest point in power in that fight, and Dooku obviously wasn't, since he wasn't pressing forward onto Anakin, but being pushed back. He was apparantly as the novel indicated he tried his best to block the devastating blows of anakins djem so.

I repeat, lucas stated anakin beat dooku fairly, accept it and move on



Oh, DE Sidious? Yeah, you're right on that. He could exterminate practically every Jedi in history. I was referring to RotS Sidious, who lost to Mace in a fair fight. Well DE sidious will still lose to NJO luke whom could easily annihilate any body from the PT era or the kotor era

1. Yoda was the grandmaster, which meant he was the TOP and most POWERFUL Jedi. He jumped straight at Obi-Wan through his rage. Mustafar isn't a Sith world, just a giant molten rock. It's nearly impossible to block an Ataru strike when you're using an offensive form and jumping at someone. Had the fight continued, Anakin would've most likely broken through and won.

And also due to the fact obi wan knew the way anakin fought as stated by the novel

4. Luke achieved Anakin's full potential and became the strongest Jedi to ever live, so that puts him above Obi-Wan. No, luke did not achieve anakins potential, he only represented what anakin would have becomed. Lucas merely stated luke represented what his father should have becomed, he didnt state they had the same exact potential


Oh and about the quote you gave me in Dark Rendezvous, it was only referring to PT sidious, it did not refer to post PT sidious whom greatly surpassed his rots incarnation.

We dont even know what a dark side yoda is capable of but as far as i know there are techniques DE sidious knows which would easily annihilate any other dark sider.

Force storm
His force sever technique which is identical to nihilus
His force drain which he used to drain the planet of byss

Lance Monance
10-04-2007, 01:14 PM
Obi-Wan could probably win in most straight-up lightsaber duels simply because of his overwhelming patience and mastery of Soresu. Heck, he managed to defeat General Grievous, the most prolific Jedi-Killer in a lightsaber duel. If Grievous had stood and fought instead of run, he would have been cut to ribbons instead of just had his organs incinerated.



Count Dooku defeated Obi-Wan in saber combat though. While he used the force in Episode 3, he did it just with his lightsaber in Episode 2. But perhaps Dooku's lightsaber stance is just particularly effective against Obi-Wan's.

Alexander the Great
10-04-2007, 06:16 PM
Wrong, and just to let you know, the novel states anakin > dooku in saber dueling while that being further being backed up by george lucas saying anakin beat dooku fairly and as far as canon goes george lucas G-canon > all others

I'll drop this argument.

Well DE sidious will still lose to NJO luke whom could easily annihilate any body from the PT era or the kotor era

Obviously.

And also due to the fact obi wan knew the way anakin fought as stated by the novel

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Obi-Wan wasn't more powerful than Anakin.

No, luke did not achieve anakins potential, he only represented what anakin would have becomed. Lucas merely stated luke represented what his father should have becomed, he didnt state they had the same exact potential

But that's pretty much implied. This is really too technical. "What Anakin would have become" pretty much means he realizes his potential and reaches it. If Luke got to that point, he obviously had his father's potential.

Oh and about the quote you gave me in Dark Rendezvous, it was only referring to PT sidious, it did not refer to post PT sidious whom greatly surpassed his rots incarnation.

I know I was referring to the PT Sidious for supporting purposes.

We dont even know what a dark side yoda is capable of but as far as i know there are techniques DE sidious knows which would easily annihilate any other dark sider.

See above.

Sephira
10-09-2007, 01:20 AM
But that's pretty much implied. This is really too technical. "What Anakin would have become" pretty much means he realizes his potential and reaches it. If Luke got to that point, he obviously had his father's potential.
Not really, it doesnt imply luke became the same exact thing what his father was suppose to become. He only represented what his father should have been, that doesnt necessarily mean they have the same exact potential


I know I was referring to the PT Sidious for supporting purposes.



It depends which incarnation of PT sidious. If its ROTS sidious whom has been out of practise with both the force and lightsaber then yea, a dark side yoda would be able to kill him seeing he has no restrictions to his abilities.

But TPM or AOTC sidious? I doubt it seeing that those incarnations of sidious can move faster than the eye can see throughout an entire duel.

And take note that OT sidious is even stronger than his PT incarnation by being able to kill 100 storm troopers with 1 blast of force lightning while diverting it from killing his own guards as well as instantly killing 3 sith acolytes powerful enough to ressurect maul with one shot of lightning.

Besides lightning, by the time of the OT sidious has mastered many more techniques and by then he is able to drain planets of their energes

Sephira
10-10-2007, 05:10 AM
That's it. On the book "The Revenge of the Sith", by Matthew Stover, it's said that, when the Jedi boarded the Invisible Hand, Sidious and Dooku were having a conversation wherein the Chancellor demanded that the count kill Obi-Wan, but spare Anakin, and lose the battle. Once captured, he would remain as a war prisoner and very safe on Coruscant, where he would stay until the rise of the Empire, where the Emperor would "forgive" his past crimes and he would be freed to govern by Palpatine side.


Seems i forgot to refute this.

Firstly Your precious novel stated that anakins pure skill overwhelmed dookus experience and mastery over makashi.

Secondly lucas stated anakin beat fair and square, that dooku is not holding back

Thirdly The new essential chronology stated that onboard the invisible hand, Dooku was fighting for his life against anakin.

And when you fight for your life, you arent holding back anything

Rogue Warrior
10-10-2007, 05:50 AM
Does it make you lose sleep at night, really?

Prime
10-10-2007, 11:16 AM
Rogue, those sorts of comments don't help the debate, so drop it.

And yes, Dooku was flat out defeated by Anakin.

Also, remember that the dark side is more powerful than the light side.

Rogue Warrior
10-10-2007, 05:40 PM
I remember an old basketball magazine when someone was called out on calling Jordan the best player, as well as Scottie Pippen, Hakeem Olajuwan and Charles Barkley. It was clarified that each in their own way was the best. Could the same be said for each individual Sith Lord, that in their own way they could be considered the best?

adamqd
10-10-2007, 05:47 PM
Also, remember that the dark side is more powerful than the light side.

tut tut,

Luke: Is the dark side stronger?
Yoda: No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.
Luke: But how am I to know the good side from the bad?
Yoda: You will know... when you are calm, at peace, passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.

stoffe
10-10-2007, 06:05 PM
tut tut,

Luke: Is the dark side stronger?
Yoda: No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.
Lucas: Well, actually....


A paragon jedi master may not be the best authority on the particulars of the darkside, or the most objective judge of its strength. :) He may not necessarily have been lying, but he doesn't know everything, so it's just his opinion on the matter. :)

adamqd
10-10-2007, 06:15 PM
Since nobody else refers to it, i'll take Yoda's word over primes :D

Besides it was more of a joke than my opinion :)

Alexander the Great
10-10-2007, 08:29 PM
I highly doubt that Yoda was talking about fighting ability. Anakin could only pull off victories against people like Asajj Ventress when he utilized his anger and pretty much fell to the dark side. The reason the Jedi don't use the dark side was because when you're influenced by it, you end up destroying yourself and everything you fought for.

[By the way, Sephira, were you ever a member of KMC Forums?]

[EDIT: 300TH POST!!! THIS IS SPARTA!!!!!]

Rev7
10-10-2007, 09:32 PM
Mustafar isn't a Sith world, just a giant molten rock.
I have heard that it was. hmmm

Corinthian
10-10-2007, 09:37 PM
Anakin Skywalker wasn't exactly a paragon of the Light Side, though.

Anyway, I'll concede the point about Obi-Wan, although I would say that, in a straight Lightsaber to Lightsaber duel with their respective Episode III skill, Obi-Wan would eventually win simply because Dooku would wear himself out against his defenses.

Alexander the Great
10-10-2007, 09:56 PM
Their lightsaber forms are exactly why Dooku WTFpwned Kenobi on both occasions. It's because Makashi focuses on precision, while Soresu is basically putting up a wall of defenses. The reason Djem So is effective against Makashi is because it's just battering the short and sometimes weak defenses of Makashi. With Soresu, however, Makashi-users can find precise falters in their defense and utilize them, causing a break in the stance. It's a little like shatterpoint, but it results from dueling skill rather than Force phenomena.

Corinthian
10-10-2007, 10:13 PM
Dooku only defeated Obi-Wan on the Invisible Hand by use of the Force, he never penetrated Obi-Wan's Lightsaber defense.

Alexander the Great
10-10-2007, 10:40 PM
But logically speaking, he could have. He managed to do it easily in AotC, and it's been said that the only one on par with Dooku's dueling skill were Mace and Yoda, and later on Anakin. Anyone who had that amount of skill could easily beat Kenobi.

Corinthian
10-10-2007, 11:31 PM
Logic fails. Dooku also beat Anakin on Geonosis, and both of them drastically improved their skill since then.

Sephira
10-11-2007, 01:29 AM
tut tut,

Luke: Is the dark side stronger?
Yoda: No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.
Luke: But how am I to know the good side from the bad?
Yoda: You will know... when you are calm, at peace, passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.

Lucas says other wise, he says the dark side is stronger in an interview, i think it was insider or rolling stones




[By the way, Sephira, were you ever a member of KMC Forums?]

[EDIT: 300TH POST!!! THIS IS SPARTA!!!!!]
Yes i am, my usernames manslayer there, on KMC there are serious vs threads, like malak vs vader or NJO luke vs revan

Over there the people are very strict about canon and over there vader isn't underrated as he is at the moment

adamqd
10-11-2007, 01:13 PM
^^^
Can't anyone see it was in jest? I was teasing! :) Besides, it's in the hands of the user... the Darkside may be stronger, but not strong enough to help maul kill Obi-wan etc... Yoda may be biased, but his explanation makes sense to me, and reflects the way the Dark charactors have been written, and explains there ultimate downfalls.

Alexander the Great
10-11-2007, 06:40 PM
Logic fails. Dooku also beat Anakin on Geonosis, and both of them drastically improved their skill since then.

As did Dooku. If he hadn't, they would've been able to take him easily. Dooku and Obi-Wan both had the time and opportunity to bring themselves up. But I've already stated why Makashi is effective against Soresu. The reason Anakin became so much more powerful was because he wasn't even finished with his training, and his potential had barely been realized. It really became evident during the Clone Wars.