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Negative Sun
10-19-2007, 09:21 AM
Instead of creating new threads every time AMD/ATi, nVidia or Intel try to blow us away with the latest technology, I thought we might as well keep it all in the same thread to keep it nice and tidy since most of these topics are related in some way or another...
My main sources are The Inquirer and CustomPC, but I don't check them all the time or feel like sharing info all the time (because it's not always worthy of its own thread lolz), but this thread might be a good way to keep each other up to date I believe.

I'll go first ;)

AMD loses $396 mill (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/10/19/amd-makes-loss)
^ Funniest part is this:
"Rival Intel made $1.86 billion in a simlar period, but still decided to cut costs by axing 2,000 staffers."
I am never buying another Intel product, no matter how much better their benchmarks might be...

But AMD isn't quite bankrupt yet... (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/10/19/amd-hopes-break-quarter)
^ A longer read, but interesting nonetheless, with a bit more info on the 45nm cores coming up...here's hoping they pull it off.

What's in a name for a GPU? (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/10/18/rv670-name)
^ Ati's RV670 name game speculation (HD3700/3800???)

Astrotoy7
10-19-2007, 01:40 PM
my only concern with such 'ongoing' threads is that someone is needed to keep them ongoing! are you volunteering negsun ?? :p

mtfbwya

Boba Rhett
10-19-2007, 01:50 PM
He volunteered! We all saw him do it! :carms:

*tethers Neg to this thread*

Negative Sun
10-19-2007, 04:16 PM
Lolz if you've spent some time around this forum lately you'll know that that won't be a problem for me :)

Just don't force me to make double or triple posts and at least nod in approval to my posts (or shake your head if you must, but since I'm always right I fail to see the point in that ;) )

Negative Sun
10-20-2007, 07:11 PM
Matrox releases pwnage GPUs!!! (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/10/17/matrox-releases-graphics-cards)

lolz, J/K...Well at least they're not quitters!

Det. Bart Lasiter
10-20-2007, 11:36 PM
"Rival Intel made $1.86 billion in a simlar period, but still decided to cut costs by axing 2,000 staffers."
I am never buying another Intel product, no matter how much better their benchmarks might be...I applaud you for your righteous fury.




I hope Intel buys AMD.

Negative Sun
10-21-2007, 05:59 AM
I hope Intel buys AMD.
That would only harm one group of people in the end: the consumer.

The only reason Intel has been so competitively priced and has brought out good value chips is because AMD is their main competitor, without that they'll become complacent and probably scr*w the costumer over even more.
*cough*look at M$*cough*

Negative Sun
10-22-2007, 09:22 PM
Ati's HD3870 (http://www.techpowerup.com/?42509) and nVidia's GeForce 8800GT (benchies!) (http://forums.vr-zone.com/showthread.php?t=197188) are getting prepped for release...

This looks like a battle that'll benefit the consumer IMO

Astrotoy7
10-24-2007, 10:47 AM
Intel buy AMD... thats crazy talk !!

It'd more likely be a mega-conglomerate interested in entering the CPU market, like sony for example. Theyve always said theyre going to do it, Im not sure what they are currently up to....

I cant see it happening anytime soon though. Even if phenom doesnt take off for the desktop/gaming crowd, the server market, ATI products and project fusion will keep them around for a whiles yet.... For the same reasons as negsun, I'd never purchase an intel product again..... pull them out of pcs in the dumpster, yes :) (like the dual core pentium d powering my media center pc)

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
10-24-2007, 02:25 PM
It'd more likely be a mega-conglomerate interested in entering the CPU market, like sony for example.
Samsung has been whispered as well, which would please me more than Sony cause Samsung have been putting high quality and value products out there for quite a while now...

stingerhs
10-24-2007, 02:44 PM
AMD not only posts gains, but it still manages to get some market share from Intel!!! (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/10/24/cpu-sales-intel-amd-soar-third) man, is this some good news for AMD. it might not be much of a market share gain, but its a good sign that AMD isn't done fightin' the good fight. :D

Negative Sun
10-24-2007, 03:53 PM
Nice one, hey that's almost a quarter of the market share, and since it's not peanuts we're talking about here that's still some good money they must make!

ChAiNz.2da
10-25-2007, 07:39 AM
Samsung has been whispered as well, which would please me more than Sony cause Samsung have been putting high quality and value products out there for quite a while now...
Indeed :D Anyone catch this nice little tid-bit?

Samsung makes mega memory microchip (http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/10/23/samsung.chip.ap/index.html)

Samsung, the world's largest maker of computer memory chips, unveiled a 64-gigabit NAND flash memory chip based on finer process technology using circuit elements that are 30 nanometers wide.
High-density flash storage is gaining ground and becoming ever so closer :emodanc:

Negative Sun
10-25-2007, 04:12 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v20/Jimmie/xp-on-macbook.jpg

Sorry if you've seen this before it was just too great not to share :p

Merged from other thread...it was a 'news' item after all :p -astro

Negative Sun
10-25-2007, 04:26 PM
Aye the SSD drives are supposed to be pwnage as they load games and apps in a flash (forgive the pun I just had to ;) )

I read that same article here (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/601479/512gb-solid-state-disks-on-the-way.html) Chainz, it's very interesting :)

So their co-operation or even purchase with/of AMD can only be a good thing in my book, give the whole Intel crowd a spank on the buttocks :)

Negative Sun
10-28-2007, 04:37 PM
w00t a whitepaper .pdf file has leaked with Ati's upcoming HD3800 series and DX10.1 features detailed in it...grab it while it's here (http://www.teamati.com/DirectX%2010_1%20White%20Paper%20v0.4.pdf)

The original article I found it on is here (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/10/27/dx10-whitepaper-leaks) on the Inq site...

Tis exciting yesyes!

Edit:
To keep things balanced and unbiased, here's (http://forums.vr-zone.com/showthread.php?t=197629) the (alleged) first review of the 8800GT!
Very good results I must say, and very consistent too, shame for all the GTS owners out there cause this puppy owns it lolz

Astrotoy7
10-28-2007, 11:17 PM
I wish there was a bit more to that review.. :p

Still, this is a perfect opportunity to start a rant about hardware manufacturers taking the enthusiast crowd for a ride.

I like tech as much as the next guy, but putting everything into context, and considering the prices of the higher end items, there are some very important provisos here..

I can say this specifically applies to CPU and GPU hardware in particular. People should think about...

1. What do you actually do with your computer ??

2. What monitor do you have, what is its max rez and output frequency

Im lucky enough to have a monitor that outputs at 1600p, but it outputs this at 60Hz. This means that anything I can EVER hope to do is capped at 60fps. At lower resolutions, it allows for a higher frequency and hence higher fps... Hence, I can play Bioshock, Oblivion etc at 1600p with maxed out settings and keep a steady and pretty 60fps with no problems with my 8800GTS. This was why I never forked out that extra $200+ for the GTX. Until a monitor that does 1600p at 120Hz comes out, I wouldnt bother with a higher end card.

Most monitors people have lurk around the 70-75Hz mark. Hence, when considering their purchases they need to keep this in mind. Do they need the GTX which gets 103fps for <insert game here> or could they get by with the GTS or ATI equivalent which does 82fps with all effects on ?? That 21fps reported by fraps etc doesnt make it to your eyes, so why should you bother ?? Ive always asked this of gaming tech-heads and have never gotten a response that makes any sense. It is difficult to talk about 'future proofing' for GPUs, with DX10 revisions, not many of the 'enthusiast' crowd are investing in a gfx card now that they can have in 3 years time.

There are a few 1080p screens out which operate at at 120Hz, but they are very expensive and actually oriented towards the home theater crowd atm. I havent seen a 1600p monitor that does 120Hz yet, though Im sure they arent too far away ;)

Quiet simply, the GPU manufacturers do a really great job at duping the higher end purchasers out of their cash - which is quite annoying :blast5:

This can even be argued with CPUs as well nowdays. With the constant revisions Intel and AMD are making, a 3 year old CPU will never perform as well as its contemporary.

For those working with applications that involve high end CPU and GPU demand, eg. graphical, HD video editing/compositing and animation apps, the argument for going high end is stronger - though these people will more likely have custom built(often mac based) pcs running a quadro card, simple as that.

So, at the end of it all, buying the highest end tech should be a purchase you should think about carefully. It's a high price to pay for bragging rights !

As for myself, the 8800GTS is handling itself OK at 1600p considering its 60fps cap... until a bunch of games come out that I really want to play actually challenge this, I now have the opportunity to squander cash on something other than my pc !! (actually saving for a holiday atm) :p

[/end rant]

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
10-29-2007, 07:25 AM
That's totally true, I mean here I am playing Jade Empire and NWN2 on my OC'ed Barton 2600+ 2.1Ghz and GeForce 6800...All this stuff is like years old technology wise, but does it still do the trick? Hell yeah.

That's why even if I do get around to upgrading next time I'll probably be going for the X2 5000+ Black Edition and a cheapo X1950Pro, why? Cause that's all I'll ever need, my monitor atm is 16", when I ever upgrade to a new monitor the max I'd go for is probably a 19" or 22" widescreen one...which caps at about 1680x1050

Consider the fact that you'll never see me playing Oblivion or FEAR or STALKER or even Crysis (not a huge FPS fan, though I might give Crysis a go at the lowest setting in the future), I don't really need much more than that.

It's the same with overclockers these days, they buy a rediculously expensive chip to OC it even more wheras the whole point of it (IMO) is to buy a cheap chip and pwn people who paid lots more for the same performance. [/rant #2] :p

Jae Onasi
10-29-2007, 07:38 AM
That and our critical flicker frequency (where we see something as a continual light instead of as a series of flashes) is maxed out for most people below 50 Hz, unless you have an extremely bright big spot of light. Some people can go up to 65 Hz (and a few with super-eyes may perceive higher frequencies), but most of us looking at a monitor won't perceive anything different past 60 Hz anyway. Now, if you have a game that won't keep the fps up around 60 unless you have a humongous graphic card, then it might be worth it.

All you never wanted to know about critical flicker frequency (http://webvision.med.utah.edu/temporal.html).

Astrotoy7
10-29-2007, 08:04 AM
That and our critical flicker frequency (where we see something as a continual light instead of as a series of flashes) is maxed out for most people below 50 Hz, unless you have an extremely bright big spot of light. Some people can go up to 65 Hz (and a few with super-eyes may perceive higher frequencies), but most of us looking at a monitor won't perceive anything different past 60 Hz anyway. Now, if you have a game that won't keep the fps up around 60 unless you have a humongous graphic card, then it might be worth it.

All you never wanted to know about critical flicker frequency (http://webvision.med.utah.edu/temporal.html).

Thanks Jae. I was going to go digging for a similar article. 60 is indeed the magic number it seems. There are some who state aiming for 80fps in games as a top end is good as it it means your lower end or mean fps can sit around 60... but this is very variable depending on which game, which settings and what hardware.

I wonder about those 120Mhz home theater TVs. Not even the highest definition video formats clock in at 120fps! Heck, blu-ray (http://www.blu-raydisc.com/) doesnt even go anywhere near it...

I smell a sales gimmick aimed at the cashed up home theater crowd :(

mtfbwya

Jae Onasi
10-29-2007, 09:20 AM
I wonder about those 120Mhz home theater TVs. Not even the highest definition video formats clock in at 120fps! Heck, blu-ray (http://www.blu-raydisc.com/) doesnt even go anywhere near it...

I smell a sales gimmick aimed at the cashed up home theater crowd :(

mtfbwya

Well, the general perception is bigger/faster/stronger/whatever is better (I smell a Ray comment coming.... :D ), but I bet most people have never heard of critical flicker frequency, much less know that there's actually a cap to what the eye can perceive. So, I can't _entirely_ blame the sales force. My guess is that most companies don't have vision specialists on staff to point these things out, and with the drive to improve fps rates, even if some specialist did point that out, Joe Public wants the higher fps even though it doesn't make a difference. The companies risk being left behind if they don't keep up with what the market wants or perceives it wants.

Negative Sun
10-29-2007, 09:49 AM
When I was working in optics I found it funny that people spent loads on a fancy HDTV but didn't care to buy glasses when their distance VA was below par lolz...You just spent thousands on a TV but your sight isn't even sharp enough to make out the difference with your old one!

*sigh* people, whatcha gonna do with em?

Q
10-29-2007, 06:14 PM
Well, Here's (http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3140&p=1) a decent review of the 8800GT.

Once all of the price-gouging dust settles after the initial launch it should be a good deal. Hell, it outperforms the GTS (640MB) for less money (even with the blatant price-gouging!) and gets quite close to GTX levels in some games. It also uses less power than either one. It also has all of the video encode/decode features of the 8600xx cards, which both the GTS and GTX lack.

I can't wait to see how the HD3800 stacks up to it.

Negative Sun
10-29-2007, 07:09 PM
I can't wait to see how the HD3800 stacks up to it.
Same here...

Char Ell
10-30-2007, 09:16 AM
I'm happy to see that the 8800 GT made progress in reduction of power consumption, probably due almost entirely to the shrink to 65 nm process. I'm also pleased that NVIDIA is also supporting more video decoding formats on the hardware side, like the lower-end 8xxx cards do. After buying my 7800 GTX back in 2005 I learned that it's often times better to wait for the new mid-range card to show up (7950 GT) as that often has better performance/price ratio. The 8800 GT confirms my theory as Anandtech says the 8800 GT should be priced in the USD$200-250 range and that is my sweet spot for a graphics card price point.

Is AMD's new RV670 chip going to be produced as the HD3800?

Negative Sun
10-30-2007, 10:55 AM
Is AMD's new RV670 chip going to be produced as the HD3800?
Seems like it, I read in an article they wanted to step away from the HD2000 name because it didn't impress much...True, false? I dunno. But that seems to be the name they're going for.

In other news:
There's an article on the first Intel Penryn (45nm) chip here (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/601506/intel-core-2-extreme-qx9650---first-look/page1.html)

It's the Quad Extreme version though, so not your average Joe chip, they did a few benchies and an OC as well and they seem quite impressed with the first 45nm chip out there...It runs quite cool and uses less juice apparently, now let's just see AMD get their finger out and actually roll out some good hm?

Astrotoy7
10-31-2007, 07:55 AM
lolz...after being reminded of the workings of the human eye, thanks to Jae's very informative post, Ive all of a sudden become very disinterested in the GT or anything for that matter. Im strictly applying a "does it do 60fps at 1080-1600p" rule to any game I buy now... my guess is my GTS will serve me for a whiles to come.

I think Im slowly breaking free of my CPU upgrade obsession... we're planning to go see the pyramids next year, so more spending money for me :D

but we'll see how the GTS handles crysis :p

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
11-03-2007, 07:23 PM
I think Im slowly breaking free of my CPU upgrade obsession... we're planning to go see the pyramids next year, so more spending money for me :D
The way I see it is that nothing can really bottleneck your CPU as quickly as it'll bottleneck your RAM or HDD or GPU or whatever...So unless you're running an absolute dinosaur, you should be good for at least a few more years (and I recall you've got an X2 6000+ so that'll cut it for a wee while yet I'm sure...plus the socket AM2 is supposed to hold all AM2+ and AM3 CPUs as well so even then you wouldn't even have to change you mobo)

OT: Watch out in Egypt it absolutely scorches there and you'll be surrounded by armed guards to visit the Piramids (Israel is just around the corner after all and they loves to shoot the Arab peoples yes they do)[/strong political opinion]

Q
11-03-2007, 10:11 PM
^^^
That's because the Arabs just love to don suits of C4 and nails when they use the Isreali public transportation system. :D

Both sides are vicious killers; the Isrealis are just more efficient.[/rebuttal] ;)

Astrotoy7
11-04-2007, 10:29 AM
Negsun & Q>> this is the tech area. Need I say more about wandering RIDICULOUSLY off topic?? Wander off to the senate chambers if you want to discuss such topics, sensibly.

OT:

Looks like the OLPC(one laptop per child) project got a great boost with the recent release of the Asus Eee.... a laptop for $400US

http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=4055

Great lappie for students..runs Linux of course ;)

*Processor: Intel Celeron M ULV 900MHz
*Graphics: Integrated Intel GMA 900 GPU
*Storage: 4GB of Flash-based storage (SSD)
*Memory: 512MB of DDR2 RAM (667MHz)
*OS: Xandros Linux (Asus customized)
*Screen: 7-inch screen with 800 x 480 resolution
*Ports: 3 USB 2.0, 1 VGA monitor out, headphone jack, microphone input, SD card reader (SDHC compatible), Kensington lock slot, Ethernet 10/100
*Webcam (0.3 MP)
*Battery: 4-cell 5200 mAh 7.4V Li-Ion (rated at 3.5 hours)
*Wireless: 802.11b/g Atheros
*Input: Keyboard and Touchpad
*Weight: approximately 2 lbs with battery, 2.5 lbs travel weight with AC adapter.

http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/27838.jpg

Im not being facetious when I say its good to see linux being utilised in such a way. Software support will most likely be provided by the vendors, though as its designed for general use, shouldnt encounter massive issues Id imagine. No "OMG...IM not getting full DX10 lighting effects in Crysis with nvidia driver version 16x.xx..." :p

mtfbwya

stingerhs
11-06-2007, 08:47 AM
well, Nvidia is about to lose a lot of wind out of their sales with the 8800 GT. the "new" Radeon 3800 series launch is soon upon us (November 19), and the prices will range from $150 -$179 for the 3850 and $200 - $230 for the 3870 series. this will put the new Radeons in an excellent price range for mainstream buyers, and the performance is supposed to be on par or better than the current 2900 XT's. and since these cards use a 55nm GPU, its my guess that overclocking is going to be a dream. :D

source (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/11/05/amd-hd3800-pricing-shock)

Negative Sun
11-06-2007, 11:14 AM
@ Astro, sorry about that ;)

Asus seem keen on stepping up to play in the big league, and they're quite right! I personally haven't used Asus but I've never heard a bad word about them either (I've been using MSI products for many years now and will continue to do so cause I'm familiar with their BIOS and all that, it doesn't have all the latest tricks and maybe isn't as popular, but it works for me and I like them :) )



well, Nvidia is about to lose a lot of wind out of their sales with the 8800 GT. the "new" Radeon 3800 series launch is soon upon us (November 19), and the prices will range from $150 -$179 for the 3850 and $200 - $230 for the 3870 series. this will put the new Radeons in an excellent price range for mainstream buyers, and the performance is supposed to be on par or better than the current 2900 XT's. and since these cards use a 55nm GPU, its my guess that overclocking is going to be a dream. :D

source (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/11/05/amd-hd3800-pricing-shock)
Good read that, here's hoping the bechies and reviews are favorable to them and it looks AMD/Ati are at least back in the GPU race for the win...

Negative Sun
11-15-2007, 03:49 PM
Here's (http://techreport.com/articles.x/13603) a tech report on the new HD3850 and 3870...It's a very good read, and apparently an extremely good buy at those price points.

Interesting stuff, looks like it's 8800GT vs HD3800 for a spot under the Xmas tree :xD:

Q
11-17-2007, 01:01 PM
I love it when my predictions (http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4251&Itemid=34) come true. :)

Keep in mind that it's Fudzilla, and therefore should be taken with a grain of salt (just like the Inquirer), but the pictures look legit. Looks like ATI's taking the single card, multi-GPU plunge first.

Negative Sun
11-17-2007, 05:49 PM
If the price is right that's a better idea than SLI or XFire cause it doesn't involve purchasing a particular motherboard either...

stingerhs
11-17-2007, 11:35 PM
^^^^
well, the 790X/FX boards are impressive enough for me to recommend them over Intel's X38 which is currently the only real competition feature-wise. so, i think its kind of a so-so idea to put a multi-GPU card on the market when you can just get two 3850's on a 790X/FX board probably for less money and still have very similar performance.

granted, that's not going to help if you want a C2D proc, but i still think its the best solution. besides, its my guess that ATI desperately needs to put out a card that can truely challenge the 8800 GTX. so, i guess this card fills that void, but i still don't think that its the best solution. ;)

Negative Sun
11-18-2007, 07:00 AM
Remains to see if two GPUs in XFire suck more juice than one dual one...But it also makes the idea of having two dual GPUs in XFire quite interesting if AMD have got the right drivers to support it :)

Astrotoy7
11-18-2007, 07:16 AM
I dunno... even if it did work out 'cheaper than a 8800' to get a sli/x-fire setup going... it has been proven *over* and *over* that such link interfacing setups only really deliver at high rez setups.. (except crysis!) If someone wants to be ''1337 pwnage'' at 1280x1024, they should save their money(and electricity) and stick to a single decent card.

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
11-18-2007, 11:14 AM
True, but AMD and nVidia are persevering with those chipsets and such so surely they must see something useful in it lolz...

stingerhs
11-18-2007, 05:10 PM
^^^^
indeed, and it looks something like this:$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$:xp:

Astrotoy7
11-19-2007, 07:51 AM
stinger FTW !!

lolz - negsun, you speak about their motives as if they are benevolent organisations. They arent making advances in visual processing hardware for the betterment of mankind, but for the betterment of themselves and their shareholders :D

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
11-19-2007, 03:41 PM
lolz, touche ;)

But let me retaliate with this:
Computer geeks aren't exactly the dumbest of people *looks around in this thread* so if there wasn't any sort of advantage to it whatsoever (aka zomg I got 2 more FPS on Crysis than this n00b!!!) they wouldn't buy it at all now would they :)

stingerhs
11-19-2007, 05:57 PM
there's always a fine balance between what the consumer is willing to spend based on what kind of benefits (or the perception thereof) that the supplier is providing. it really all boils down to basic economics of supply and demand. there is a point in which every consumer wants something but is only willing to spend so much for that something, and at the same time, suppliers are only willing to sell for so little depending on how much profit they want to make on the product.

obviously, they want big profits from their products, and that's where marketing (aka hyping) comes in. by hyping a product, they can increase how much the consumer is willing to spend.

that can be applied to any consumer/supplier scenario, and the computer hardware industry is no different. pricing is always based on how much consumers are willing to spend for something that really doesn't cost that much to produce.

a prime example of this is Nvidia's GeForce 8800 series of cards. despite being on the market for well over a full year now, the GTS, GTX, and Ultra 8800's really haven't changed much in price outside of the initial markups. the main reason is that most gamers i've seen have been more than willing to put the money down for those cards even though price hasn't changed. given how long the cards have been in production, you would expect lower prices, but as long as people are willing to spend the money, prices will stay where they are.

obviously, prices are going to come down (finally) due to the 8800 GT and the new Radeon 3800's, but i find it rather amusing that people have been willing to spend upwards of $500 for a video card that's been on the market for well over a full year.

anyways, i think that's enough rambling on my part for today. :D

Negative Sun
11-21-2007, 12:00 PM
Out of all the new GPUs out there the HD3850 is the one I'd go for, best bang per buck IMO, especially if you're gonna stay below 1680x1050

It's the only card that rivals the X1950Pro in the low price battle and would actually be worth the extra $30-50 on top of that...

Astrotoy7
11-21-2007, 10:08 PM
the 8800GTS has dropped a bit, from what Ive seen - Ive seen my evga for about $80 cheaper than what I got it for

It all depends what brand you are getting. The XFX, EVGA, BFG cards seem to always be able to pull a higher price then the more obscure brands.

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
11-23-2007, 05:10 PM
Here's a couple of updates:
Steam goes old school (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/601686/steam-to-have-every-pc-game-ever-including-lucasarts-classics.html)
No exactly hardware but worth mentioning I believe, it's good that people look back at older titles (especially in the LA lineup) and bring them back to life...I just hope they actually work on XP or Vista lolz

First look at the Phenom 9600 (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/601683/amd-23ghz-phenom-9600--first-benchmarks.html)
What else can I say? It's still way too early to draw any real conclusions yet though, but we all knew AMD had to come out extremely strong to start and rival C2D Quads...

The R680, need I say more? (http://en.expreview.com/?p=49)
Holy mackerel this is one huge card! It looks very sexy though, but looking at the power connectors it also looks like it might eat your PSU for breakfast...Here's some more (and better) pics... (http://en.expreview.com/?p=33)

Astrotoy7
11-24-2007, 10:15 AM
lolz.... those old school titles wont get off the ground in xp let alone vista until they write a decent emulation platform from scratch.

(if anyone replies to that linking to <insert ridiculous homebrew app that does a half assed job> I will laser beam their face with my death-ray goggles that tk made for me)

The R680.... being a smallform fan, not my first choice - it would never fit in my case !!
With the 8800GT going slim n sleek, you'd think ATI would follow suit.

Ah well, If you didnt like gaming, you could use it as weapon to smack burglars in the head with LD

AMD is so environment/energy conscious in their engineering outlook and design, I was hoping it would have rubbed off on the ATI peeps...maybe not ??

mtfbwya

EDIT: I think NegSun has displayed great comittment to being the tech area's roving reporter, so I am honoring his original request to have this stickied. Keep up the great work, ya wee devil ;)

Char Ell
11-24-2007, 11:58 AM
Here's a couple of updates:
Steam goes old school (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/601686/steam-to-have-every-pc-game-ever-including-lucasarts-classics.html)
No exactly hardware but worth mentioning I believe, it's good that people look back at older titles (especially in the LA lineup) and bring them back to life...I just hope they actually work on XP or Vista lolz I think it's a great idea but I'm not sure LucasArts is on board with it. LA seems to be in the back of the pack when it comes to digital download of their games. The only game one can dl right now is SWG and that game was only made available for purchase and dl a few months ago on Direct2Drive.
The R680, need I say more? (http://en.expreview.com/?p=49)
Holy mackerel this is one huge card! It looks very sexy though, but looking at the power connectors it also looks like it might eat your PSU for breakfast... No kidding! I guess with two onboard GPU's one shouldn't be surprised and the article did say they expected the card to draw in the neighborhood of 200W. Yikes! I like the idea of two GPU's on a single card but I don't want to use a solution that consumes more than 100-125W.

Negative Sun
11-24-2007, 05:33 PM
EDIT: I think NegSun has displayed great comittment to being the tech area's roving reporter, so I am honoring his original request to have this stickied. Keep up the great work, ya wee devil ;)
lolz is that some Scottish I spy there? :D


No kidding! I guess with two onboard GPU's one shouldn't be surprised and the article did say they expected the card to draw in the neighborhood of 200W. Yikes! I like the idea of two GPU's on a single card but I don't want to use a solution that consumes more than 100-125W.
Same here, it's just as pointless as going Sli or XFire IMO, save getting a new mobo...

Here's (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/601659/amd-unveils-phenom-cpu-and-spider-platform.html) a longer article on the Phenom and the whole 'Spider' platform, with some nice pics of 4 HD3800's in Quad Xfire and such...

Amazon wants to re-invent the book... (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/601665/amazon-launches-replacement-for-book---the-kindle.html)
And fails miserably IMO, nothing will ever beat buying a good 'ol paperback for those long train journeys I think.

Astrotoy7
11-25-2007, 12:02 AM
lolz is that some Scottish I spy there? :D

Amazon wants to re-invent the book... (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/601665/amazon-launches-replacement-for-book---the-kindle.html)
And fails miserably IMO, nothing will ever beat buying a good 'ol paperback for those long train journeys I think.

lolz, being as Oz Turkish Cypriot makes me a bit removed from being Scottish, but my GF is actually - clan Morrison - aye !

I dont mind the e-reader at all. I've used a pda for ebooks/audiobooks since 2002. I think the cost for that unit is a bit prohibitive atm, you could get an older pda with large screen for 1/4 of that price off ebay etc. Places like mobipocket are already prolific e-book online sellers.

But its the way of the future, mark my words !! Here's why :

*Libraries will never be out of the books you want !
*Getting a rarer book will be easier. Those is further flung places have difficulty getting certain titles, and have to buy online, pay heavy postage etc
*Paper saving is good for the environment :)
*Has anyone tried carrying more than 3-4 books aroudn in their bag, no room left for anything else !! No such problem with such a gadget.
*Being in digital form, books are cheaper to distribute, no print costs
*Hardcovers ! ugh. hyper inflated price and dimensions - never again
*Libraries/schools/universities can save space.

Cons:
*those in the printing industry will have significantly less to do, or be out of a job. Still, when youre relying on 500 year old technology to make your living, you need to skill up for the inevitable, IMO
*the phrase "curl up with a good book" will need to be amended :p

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
11-27-2007, 06:40 PM
*Hardcovers ! ugh. hyper inflated price and dimensions - never again
I couldn't agree more with this one though :p

More news:
Get it dun yer neck! HD3870 XFire Vs 8800GT Sli with benchmarks!!! (http://en.expreview.com/?p=53)
And surprisingly (or maybe not to some) AMD has done remarkably well in making XFire actually worthwhile, and it's more energy-efficient than Sli and not even that much more compared to a single HD3870!!!
I still would have liked to see some benchies of a single high-end solution (2900XT or 8800GTX) in there to see how these lower cost dual-card rigs would stack up against the hugely expensive single-card solutions...

And more Micro$oft news too lolz:
XP SP3 pwns Vista SP1 (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/11/27/xp-beats-vista-performance)
"Still it is not all bad. Microsoft's biggest competition is still, er, Microsoft."
^ Amen to that, all the Vista bashing aside, I don't think M$ is crying because people would rather buy one of their OSes over another one, point is: people are buying it, probably faster than their accountants can count the cash that's coming in[/cynical mode]

And some Sony news that's not a sick joke for once:
Blu-Ray pwns HD-DVDs atm (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/11/27/blu-ray-outsells-hd-dvd)
Maybe the first good news Sony's heard in a while? I hope the Blu-Ray disc makes it though as I'm convinced it's the more superior format (IMO) and the sooner a winner is picked the sooner shops can get rid of having two separate sections in the HD media aisle lolz
Plus that means Sony gets some monies to develop some more good stuff cause the last thing we need is M$ gaining another monopoly in modern technology :xp:

Char Ell
11-27-2007, 10:55 PM
And more Micro$oft news too lolz:
XP SP3 pwns Vista SP1 (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/11/27/xp-beats-vista-performance)
"Still it is not all bad. Microsoft's biggest competition is still, er, Microsoft."
^ Amen to that, all the Vista bashing aside, I don't think M$ is crying because people would rather buy one of their OSes over another one, point is: people are buying it, probably faster than their accountants can count the cash that's coming in[/cynical mode] It's good to hear that Windows XP SP3 will help improve performance. I hope it's not just an improvement for MS Office though. In any case, it's about time MS put out another service pack for Windows XP. It just annoys me to no end when I think of having to install Windows XP, then SP 2, and then having to download all the stinkin' patches that have come out since SP 2's release. IMHO MS shouldn't go for more than a 12-15 months without a service pack when they are releasing a high number of patches for the OS.

As far as Vista goes, the only reason I have to upgrade is to play DX 10 games. And since not a lot of DX 10 games have come out (that I'm interested in anyway) I'm not in any hurry. And from the looks of things not a whole lot of other people are in a hurry to make the switch to Vista either. :D

Negative Sun
11-30-2007, 05:19 PM
^ Couldn't agree more :)

Here's (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/11/29/amd-messed-christmas) an interesting article on the whole AMD vs Intel situation and what it means to us (the consumer) and what it might bring in the future...

GeForce 9 on the way? (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/11/30/nvidia-preparing-geforce)
I wouldn't bother too much about this though, but it would be nice to see a card that is capable of running Crysis and Flight Sim X at full blast...

Phenom X3's in February? (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/601734/rumour-control-triple-core-amd-cpus-in-february-2008.html)
Let's hope AMD take some feedback on board of the early Phenom reviews and do some tweaking before releasing this one to the hounds...Not that the Phenom 9600 is bad or anything, but if it prices the Triple-cores correctly it might be decent competition against Intel's dual-core solutions in the low/mid-range CPU battle...

Char Ell
12-01-2007, 12:36 PM
GeForce 9 on the way? (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/11/30/nvidia-preparing-geforce)
I wouldn't bother too much about this though, but it would be nice to see a card that is capable of running Crysis and Flight Sim X at full blast... What do you mean? DigiTimes is the original source for this info and they're pretty reliable, aren't they? Actually I've been hoping the GeForce 9 is in the works and would get released sometime next year so I really hope this turns out to be true. I did notice DigiTimes referred to this as D9E so I see the new NVIDIA naming convention (http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=9506) seems to be taking hold. I'll probably wait for the D9P to release before I decide which one to go with. I want a card that will be able to run games at 1080p with at least medium settings but also won't require me to install a new electrical circuit in my home. :p

Negative Sun
12-01-2007, 05:58 PM
I wasn't talking about the reliability of the article Char Ell, more about the whole concept in general ;)

The 8800 isn't quite on its last legs yet IMO, and introducing another range (unless it hardcore only) will only hinder themselves.

Char Ell
12-04-2007, 08:53 AM
^^^
Oh, OK. But if the DigiTimes article (http://www.digitimes.com/mobos/a20071129PD216.html) is correct and NVIDIA will launch D9E, their top-of-the-line 9th generation GPU, in late February 2008 and the D9P, their midrange 9th generation GPU, in June 2008 then I personally think the 8800 only has a few months before it is eclipsed by NVIDIA's newest GPU. It's about time to retire my 7800 GTX but I'm going to wait until the D9P releases to see how it compares with the D9E, especially since it looks like D9P is supposed to drop down to a 55 nm process from D9P's 65 nm process. Of course this is all contingent on whether DigiTimes is accurately reporting this. ;)

Negative Sun
12-04-2007, 05:38 PM
Mind you Digitimes is also the site that had a list of upcoming nVidia GPUs in the 8-series and listed ones like the 8900 etc...So it's all purely speculation I'd say, but nVidia might be jumping on Ati's bandwagon after they switched from HD2000 to HD3000 after all...

A drop to 55nm would be good news for those who want less power sucking and more pixel flying :)

Char Ell
12-05-2007, 12:43 AM
Mind you Digitimes is also the site that had a list of upcoming nVidia GPUs in the 8-series and listed ones like the 8900 etc...Are you sure you aren't mistaking a report you read on CustomPC that cited The Inquirer as their source (http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost.php?p=2373979&postcount=3) for a report from DigiTimes? I've never known DigiTimes to get something like this wrong and curiously enough the CustomPC article's link to The Inquirer's article doesn't work...

With respect to your comment about NVIDIA jumping on ATI's bandwagon, I guess that that is one way to look at it. Of course if one recalls that an 8800 GT was originally designated as G92 and G92 was given the designation D8P in NVIDIA's new GPU naming convention then it seems logical to conclude that when NVIDIA unveils D9E they'll go with something like GeForce 9800 GTX as the retail name, since it will be based on NVIDIA's 9th generation GPU. Personally I thought NVIDIA should have gone with 8900 GT for G92 but maybe that was one of those things that got messed up with the transition to their new GPU naming convention. :p

Negative Sun
12-05-2007, 06:04 PM
Nah it was Digitimes allright I remember the layout...I'd look for the page on it but for some reason that's all members only now, strange...lolz

Seems like the internet doesn't support us when we're trying to prove a point :p

Negative Sun
12-09-2007, 05:47 PM
Here's a wee update:

GDDR5 by Samsung, world's fastest memory (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/601746/samsung-develops-worlds-fastest-memory--gddr5.html)

Very interesting, even though it won't be reality for a while, but it might take that long for hardware to catch up with Crysis lolz...I do wonder how the devs tested out the maxed settings on that since no PC on earth can seem to hold its own on it, unless it was at 800x600 :p

Char Ell
12-11-2007, 10:07 PM
The G92 version of the 8800 GTS debuted today. (http://www.nvidia.com/object/io_1197381522840.html) It's speced with a 256-bit bus like the 8800 GT but has bumped up timings for all three clocks and an additional 16 stream processors.

Anandtech's review of the 8800 GTS 512 (http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3175) says the 8800 GT is still the best bang for the buck though.

I still think NVIDIA should have named these cards 8900 GT and 8900 GTS. It seems a better fit to me since the die shrink has made such a performance difference from the 90 nm version of these GPU's.

Negative Sun
12-12-2007, 08:01 PM
The G92 version of the 8800 GTS debuted today. (http://www.nvidia.com/object/io_1197381522840.html) It's speced with a 256-bit bus like the 8800 GT but has bumped up timings for all three clocks and an additional 16 stream processors.

Anandtech's review of the 8800 GTS 512 (http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3175) says the 8800 GT is still the best bang for the buck though.

I still think NVIDIA should have named these cards 8900 GT and 8900 GTS. It seems a better fit to me since the die shrink has made such a performance difference from the 90 nm version of these GPU's.
Interesting review, I agree that the market is at a high right now, between $200-400 you're spoiled for choice when it comes to bang-per-buck GPUs nowadays, with nVidia still ruling the high end, it looks like Ati is swooping in from below (maybe getting ready to take the top too?)

To keep it in the GPU section:
Tri-Sli 8800 Ultras pwn Crysis at 1920x1200 with everything maxed!!! (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/12/12/daily-wibble-12dec2007)
Surprisingly it's a bunch of Germans that's managed this feat lolz

Astrotoy7
12-12-2007, 08:27 PM
To keep it in the GPU section:
Tri-Sli 8800 Ultras pwn Crysis at 1920x1200 with everything maxed!!! (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/12/12/daily-wibble-12dec2007)
Surprisingly it's a bunch of Germans that's managed this feat lolz

thats definitely interesting for the likes of me - but also dismaying as theres no way im building such a juice sucking pc - Tri sli boards I imagine are strictly ATX only, so imagine the PSU(s) required to power 3 8800s !! :(

I am not surprised at all about the krauts doing this. Germany is the home of some the worlds most talented overclockers..

crysis uber alles !!

I think its fantastic that just *one game* has thrown the hardware world into chaos, and given "the big two" some focus as to what they should be achieving. Its more than just the nutty enthusiast who wants a juiced system now, its the casual and moderate gamer as well. Im sure it also pleases MS as DX10/gaming is a major part of what vista's future adoption is riding on.

>>until nvidia/ati create a single card that can pull such a feat off, then I will be able to refrain from throwing more $$$ into my little black box ;)

mtfbwya

stingerhs
12-13-2007, 11:28 AM
well, this latest bit of news was fairly interesting. it doesn't really affect me all that much, but for those on a tight budget, this is some good news. its called Hybrid Crossfire, and its a new technique that we'll eventually see with the Fusion CPU's from AMD. basically, it takes an integrated graphics chip and allows it to work with a discrete graphics card plugged into the mobo. the demo AMD was running also showed that their new integrated chipset is fairly capable (in terms of integrated graphics at any rate), but when combined with the new budget Radeons coming out, graphics performance was even better.

more info here (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/12/13/ati-previews-hybrid-crossfire)

Negative Sun
12-13-2007, 07:04 PM
Nice one stinger, I hadn't heard of that before it should definitely be quite interesting for the budget end of the market, which is where most of the sales are anyways...

@ Astro: I wonder what PSU they used for that lolz

On a more serious note, I think GPUs have hit the same wall CPUs have, where it's not the pure horsepower of one chip that counts, but the combined strength of multiple cores working together, which is why (IMO) nVidia and Ati keep pushing their multi-GPU platforms and make X2 GPUs etc...
The heat barrier is one that's not easily overcome, and though die-shrinks can help, having multiple GPUs devide the weight helps even more to achieve great results, if they can only sort their drivers out before they actually release the bloody things!

Edit: Some more news for y'all ;)

KDE 4 pwns GNOME and KDE 3.5 (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/12/14/kde-uses-less-memory)
The fact that it looks sexier and uses less memory than a previous version and even GNOME is quite an amazing feat, we'll see what the verdict is when it gets released finally...

3-way Sli but only for 8800 GTX/Ultras (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/601791/nvidia-announces-3-way-sli.html)
For those who have very deep pockets (1.1kW PSU, wtf?) and have a good deal with their electricity provider...At least it can handle Crysis though ;)

Phenom 9900 + Spider platform reviewed... (http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=10648&page=1)
What can I say? Whether we like it or not, Intel rules the scene atm, and there's no stopping them is there...
Though I am pleased that this platform shows promise, promise just isn't enough...A horse can show promise but at the end of the day if it just isn't fast enough it won't win the race...
I really really hope AMD take some feedback on board and learn learn learn from their mistakes (and Intel!)...Hope is not lost though, the HD2000 series was a disappointment to say the least, but the HD3800 series was spot on, so here's hoping Phenoms can do the same...

Astrotoy7
12-14-2007, 11:27 PM
Some more Tri-Sli Madness

Triple 8800GTX Ultra - pwnz at HD and UHD, kills million trees in process (http://www.guru3d.com/article/Videocards/481/) :p

even though its a recent article - they omit using crysis in the benchies though :p

Also used a 1.1KW PSU - averaging at 750-800w at default settings

Just freakin ridiculous IMO. I love the idea of HD/UHD hi -performance gaming, but this is a *far from efficient* and *freakishly expensive* way of doing it. Most people would simply be better off getting 360/PS3 to experience HD gaming in the interim.

Hopefully the next gen of GPUs from the big 2 will at least achieve the same result from 'plain ole SLI' rather than teh excessive tr-sli. Ideally, we'd all liek that typ of performace from *one card*. It'll happen one day im sure - dont know when though... :(

Loved seeing the CPU ceiling effect on clear display in those snazzily presented benchies ;)

mtfbwya

Q
12-15-2007, 12:16 AM
As far as Phenom is concerned...

Well, there's a problem. A bug in the level 3 cache that's keeping AMD from releasing higher-clocked versions. As CPU load increases, so does the possibility that the chip will hang. AMD has released a workaround but it degrades performance by about 10%. This WILL be fixed in the next revision (B3, I think), so it may be wise to hold off on the upgrade to Phenom until this revision is released. I just can't believe that this wasn't discovered earlier.

AMD can't seem to catch a break lately.

Negative Sun
12-15-2007, 02:35 AM
I never knew that, thanks Q, so it definitely seems we haven't seen the Phenom's full potential yet, with maybe lower-clocked version able to OC to mad levels like the good 'ol days...

@ Astro: Yes Dual-Sli with a pair of Ultras is gonna be much easier on the wallet methinks :p

Thanks for that review though, looking at the benchies I really can't see what would justify the price of three cards compared to one though...

Astrotoy7
12-15-2007, 11:12 AM
Heres one for the 'mind boggling' category....

3D Surrounding Gate Transistor Technology could clock 50Ghz (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/12/08/unisantis_and_ime_3d_transistor/)

Sure its just R&D phase, but the potential for such a thing.... incorporate that design into a fusion CnGPU type chip and the days of discrete video cards will be over.

One day, Im sure we'll look back and laugh, "do you remember when we used to get excited over those monstrously cumbersome graphics cards!" :p

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
12-15-2007, 07:39 PM
Heres one for the 'mind boggling' category....

3D Surrounding Gate Transistor Technology could clock 50Ghz (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/12/08/unisantis_and_ime_3d_transistor/)

Sure its just R&D phase, but the potential for such a thing.... incorporate that design into a fusion CnGPU type chip and the days of discrete video cards will be over.

One day, Im sure we'll look back and laugh, "do you remember when we used to get excited over those monstrously cumbersome graphics cards!" :p

mtfbwya
Very interesting stuff Astro, higher clocks would definitely be nice as it seems to be a hurdle for both CPUs and GPUs nowadays...With Intel focusing a bit more on Ray-Tracing and AMD looking into Fusion processors and such it does look like the days of "zomg this card doesn't fit my case" or "zomg my crappy PSU isn't good enough for this GPU" might be over...

Talking about the Fusion though:
AMD unveils a lot of their upcoming new technologies @ AMD analyst day (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/12/14/amd-outs-lot-info-analyst-day)

An extremely interesting read, and considering the slow year they've just had, if they can even pull off half of these in the next 12-18 months they might be back in the race, though I fear it could turn out to be another "AMD invents it, Intel perfects it" debacle if they don't start focusing on the immediate market as well...Demand is certainly out there, as Intel seems to be focusing on tweaks and die-shrinks mainly, AMD is going tabula rasa to bring us loads of new technologies...Will the gamble pay off? Is this just a temporary setback as the prepare to annihilate Intel a la P4 massacre?
I sure as hell hope so :)

Negative Sun
12-21-2007, 02:57 PM
More news peeps:

16-page Phenom review including overclocking results! (http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/amd-phenom.html)
Very interesting stuff, and I think the reviewer is spot on, AMD will have to focus more on the mid-range market and below, which is where the money is anyways, if the price is about 17% below the Q6600, then performance can be allowed that same margin can't it?

It certainly starts to look interesting when you see that Intel is struggling with their vaunted 45nm chips: Clicky (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/12/21/rumors-swirl-intel-45nm)
It might give AMD a chance to catch their breaths and catch up in the retail side of things whilst getting on with their own 45nm development...

And last up is nVidia's 1Gb 8800GT (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/12/21/8800gt-stfu-edition)
Should be interesting to see it work on higher resolutions...just wait n see :)

Char Ell
12-21-2007, 09:02 PM
It certainly starts to look interesting when you see that Intel is struggling with their vaunted 45nm chips: Clicky (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/12/21/rumors-swirl-intel-45nm)
It might give AMD a chance to catch their breaths and catch up in the retail side of things whilst getting on with their own 45nm development... Oi! That Inquirer article on the "issues" with Intel's 45 nm manufacturing was a rather annoying read.
:freakout: "Oh noez, something is going wrong with Intel's 45 nm process but we don't have anything to back this up other than one of their Penryn processors isn't really available for purchase anywhere!" Ridiculous reporting, even if it turns out that Intel is having significant problems with producing 45 nm chips in volume. I don't think I'll bother with reading any more articles from The Inquirer. Their reporting doesn't measure up to the standards I expect.

In other news, DailyTech (http://www.dailytech.com/Images+Leaked+of+the+AMD+Radeon+HD+3450+HD+3470+an d+HD+3650+/article10125.htm) has an article sourced from MadBoxPC, a Spanish-language website, detailing AMD's new entry-level and mid-range cards that are supposed to launch in January. Nothing in this news that gets me excited since I'm interested in upper end graphics cards but I guess it's a matter of wait-and-see how AMD's graphics strategy works out for them over the next year.

Negative Sun
12-22-2007, 07:32 PM
Hmmm, looks like AMD took some advice and focused a bit more on the lower-end market, which is good for them cause those are the kind of GPUs they'd sell in cheap Dell or other branded systems, which isn't too bad for AMD if it proves to be good value for money...

Dunno if this needed its own thread or not, so I'll drop it here:

XP SP3 Release Candidate 1 is finally here! (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=75ed934c-8423-4386-ad98-36b124a720aa&DisplayLang=en)

Since I've only got this PC and I don't feel up to a great catastrophe, I'll wait a wee while to see how it's received, but at least we know it's coming soon-ish lolz
Anyone who's willing to give it a go, lemme know how it fares ;)

Here's (http://download.microsoft.com/download/6/8/7/687484ed-8174-496d-8db9-f02b40c12982/Overview%20of%20Windows%20XP%20Service%20Pack%203. pdf) a linky to a .pdf that explains everything that's included in SP3 (so far)

Astrotoy7
12-22-2007, 08:15 PM
lolz...getting rid of the requirement for product activation/key on installation is a good idea - too late for one of the chaps in the other threads though :D

maybe I didnt read it properly, looks like they didnt think it was appropriate to chuck in WMP11 ??

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
12-26-2007, 07:43 PM
lolz...getting rid of the requirement for product activation/key on installation is a good idea - too late for one of the chaps in the other threads though :D

maybe I didnt read it properly, looks like they didnt think it was appropriate to chuck in WMP11 ??

mtfbwya
Well, it's pointless in Europe anyways, since the EU would just chase them down like mad dogs lolz...
Though I think I read it was just to keep the weight of it down to a bare minimum of security/enhancement/stabilization/compatibility updates rather than fancy stuff.

Here's another wee update:
Asus to make PDA/Smartphone (http://www.gpsandco.com/articles/newsitem.php?id=5203)
The article is in French but it's got some sweet pics of it and I'm sure the specs don't need translated, and if they do, let me know ;)
I'm glad Asus is looking into this as I'm due to upgrade my contract phone in a couple of months and this one fits exactly into the category I'm interested in...The only thing that bugs me is that the screens looks quite small on both sides, which could be its downfall as there's stiff competition out there in this category of phones nowadays and some are just as powerful with like massive touch screens and such.
I'll wait and see what the verdict is :)

tk102
12-26-2007, 07:59 PM
Perl 5.10 was released on Dec 18. It's been 5 years since Perl 5.8 came out.

Significant new features

The new smart match operator implements a new kind of comparison, the specifics of which are contextual based on the inputs to the operator. The result is that all comparisons now just Do The Right Thing, a hallmark of Perl programming. Programmers can also capture matches based on names, rather than position in the expression. In addition, the regular expression engine has been tweaked, tuned and sped up in many cases.

Building on the smart-match operator, Perl finally gets a switch statement, and it goes far beyond the kind of traditional switch statement found in languages like C, C++ and Java.

Other improvements include state variables that allow variables to persist between calls to subroutines; user defined pragmata that allow users to write modules to influence the way Perl behaves; a defined-or operator; field hashes for inside-out objects and better error messages.

Interpreter improvements

It's not just langauge changes. The Perl interpreter itself is faster with a smaller memory footprint, and several UTF-8 and threading improvements. The Perl installation is now relocatable, a blessing for systems administrators and operating system packagers.

http://www.perlfoundation.org

MJ-W4
12-27-2007, 04:54 PM
NegSun and TK, ta for win and pearl links (I missed them over christmas). :)

As for intel's 45nm problems: One thing I can see that has an impact on processor development in general is that the structures are now small enough to get near the tunneling border already. 'Conventional' materials can only be so thin before things start to get pretty dodgy.

Det. Bart Lasiter
12-27-2007, 05:17 PM
Hmmm, looks like AMD took some advice and focused a bit more on the lower-end market, which is good for them cause those are the kind of GPUs they'd sell in cheap Dell or other branded systems, which isn't too bad for AMD if it proves to be good value for money...

Dunno if this needed its own thread or not, so I'll drop it here:

XP SP3 Release Candidate 1 is finally here! (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=75ed934c-8423-4386-ad98-36b124a720aa&DisplayLang=en)

Since I've only got this PC and I don't feel up to a great catastrophe, I'll wait a wee while to see how it's received, but at least we know it's coming soon-ish lolz
Anyone who's willing to give it a go, lemme know how it fares ;)

Here's (http://download.microsoft.com/download/6/8/7/687484ed-8174-496d-8db9-f02b40c12982/Overview%20of%20Windows%20XP%20Service%20Pack%203. pdf) a linky to a .pdf that explains everything that's included in SP3 (so far)Little late but I installed the err, pre-RC1 version of SP3 and found it to be pretty damn awesome.

Negative Sun
12-27-2007, 05:36 PM
NegSun and TK, ta for win and pearl links (I missed them over christmas). :)

As for intel's 45nm problems: One thing I can see that has an impact on processor development in general is that the structures are now small enough to get near the tunneling border already. 'Conventional' materials can only be so thin before things start to get pretty dodgy.
Definitely true...
Thing is, if Intel gets the Nehalem 45nm architecture spot on, AMD will be in even more trouble as it's struggling to get its 65nm Phenoms bug-free and up to spec ATM.

MJ-W4
12-27-2007, 05:52 PM
... if Intel gets the Nehalem 45nm architecture spot on ...Absolutely. Then again, everyday use isn't nearly as controlled as a lab environment, what if intel's spiffy processor conks out everytime a cell-phone gets close? I guess there'll be more interesting news on that topic. Let's wait and see. :)

Oh, btw, in order to ease the wait: slainte mhath :guiness:

Negative Sun
12-29-2007, 07:40 PM
Here's another wee update:

Phenom 9900 (2.6Ghz) review (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/12/29/first-inqpressions-amd-phenom)
It looks like even the higher-clocked Phenoms can't quite bring the goods either, even though it's probably still caused by the L3-cache so AMD really needs to get their finger out and get us either higher clocks or better price/performance ratio or preferably both...I agree that K10 needs a major kick up the arse if it's going to rival the now aging Core2 architecture and even stand a remote chance against Nehalem...

MJ-W4
12-30-2007, 02:10 AM
^ I really wonder what the story is behind that dratted Level-3 cache. This seems to be the one thing that prevents the phenom to get anywhere. Somehow, that doesn't fit in with the rest of the design at all.

If I do buy a mac in '08, there'll be no AMD troubles at my end but this is really intrigueing.

Astrotoy7
12-30-2007, 02:04 PM
NegSun, a piffy inquirer article does not maketh a review... we will let you get away with it, assuming you are drunk with christmas cheer :p

some more reviews here:
>Legit Reviews Nov 19 2007 (http://www.legitreviews.com/article/597/1/)
annoying thing about this article > its "gaming" benchies are given at low spec only, which shows relative performance of the CPUs well, but is not really practical. As has been done in other reviews, showing how the CPU marks plateau compared to GPU demands would have put some of those results in context for gaming. Also, there is no comparison to the Q6700, which would have been handy ;) (Although there are some Q6600 numbers in there)

>Neoseeker Dec 19 2007 (http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Hardware/Reviews/phenom_9900/)

>Overclockers Club Dec 23 2007 (http://www.overclockersclub.com/reviews/amd_phemon_9900/)

I think the conclusions made by the neoskeeer reviewer are important > the winner is indeed the consumer ;)

For those that want a 1337 gaming rig, I think it has been demonstrated that performance, especially at higher rez, is really locked in with what your GPU can muster. This is a curious contest, but unfortuantely, outside the realm of benchies, its becoming a pissing contest, with not a huge amount of practical carryover. If youre going to have a magnificent/expensive CPU, your gaming performance at least, will still be limited. Of course, the profile of how teh CPU picthes in will change with developments in mainbaords/GPUs/Apps...as it always does :p

Price is going to be a significant issue, even before AMD rolls out there 45nm.

The comparable Intel Q6700 is listed at newegg at $539.00, whereas the scuttlebut (http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20071129130057_AMD_Aims_Higher_Price_Points_with_F orthcoming_Phenom_Chips.html) seems to be AMD is going to be pricing the 9900 at the $350 mark.

My Wallet's Conclusion:
For me, Im going to sit this battle out for the moment ;) I'll be interested in the 45nm numbers and the pricing of the 3Ghz CPUS when they come out. Other than that, Im more interested to see what those clowns ATI and nvidia can do try get "tri-sli" numbers on one card, and with much lower power demands. I think I'll be waiting at least 12 months :p

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
12-30-2007, 03:56 PM
Lolz well the reviews all say the same though don't they?

Intel wins this round hands down, and until the 45nm AMD "Stars" CPUs roll out and the Phenoms are a bit more settled (and hopefully down in price and up in performance) I wouldn't bother looking at anything else just now if you're well off...

I've seen some very well priced AM2+ boards lately, so I think I'd go for one of those with an X2 5000+ Black Edition which can give you as much performance as a 6400+ on air cooling apparently...And after that just slap an AM2+ True Quad in there once they've been around a bit longer and maybe switched to 45nm by then.

Seeing as I've got a 130nm Athlon XP just now, switching to a 65nm wouldn't exactly be heartbreaking, even if it is the aging Athlon64 X2.

Astrotoy7
01-01-2008, 08:59 AM
I wouldnt even worry abou that too much negsun...upgrading a GPU is where gamers are going to see the most benefit atm. A 3850 or 8800GT will give them performance jumps beyond staying with with a lower end card and changing CPU from x2 ro x4 alone, whatever brand > thus is the crux of my rant :)

Let intel and AMD R&D fight it out...Hopefully their marketing depts.will follow suit ;) At the end of the day, thats the most important aspect of it all for us consumers :p

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
01-01-2008, 10:00 AM
I wouldnt even worry abou that too much negsun...upgrading a GPU is where gamers are going to see the most benefit atm. A 3850 or 8800GT will give them performance jumps beyond staying with with a lower end card and changing CPU from x2 ro x4 alone, whatever brand > thus is the crux of my rant :)

Let intel and AMD R&D fight it out...Hopefully their marketing depts.will follow suit ;) At the end of the day, thats the most important aspect of it all for us consumers :p

mtfbwya
Aye if I build my new system anytime soon it'll be an HD3850 with an X2 5000+ Black Edition...But it wouldn't hurt to have an AM2+ mobo for future uprgading, cause since it's got PCIe 2.0 on it with double the bandwith the graphics as well as the processor would benefit from that kind of mobo I think...Even though they still have to iron out some of the bugs, by the time I get round to getting it I'm sure it'll all be settled.

Char Ell
01-04-2008, 12:57 AM
First info on NVIDIA's GeForce 9600 GT (D9M) has shown up on various tech websites. I like DailyTech so I'll post a link to their article on the 9600 GT. :D <click here> (http://www.dailytech.com/NVIDIA+Details+GeForce+9600+GT/article10218.htm)

An NVIDIA representative is reported to have said that performance of the 9600 GT is almost double that of the 8600 GT. Heh. Considering how poorly the 8600 GT fared in a lot of reviews I'm not sure that is as impressive as it sounds. :smirk2:

In any case, I'm more interested in info on D9P and D9E than D9M. I expect we'll be hearing more official info about NVIDIA's 9000 series graphics cards come February.

Negative Sun
01-04-2008, 07:02 PM
The specs of that 9600 look sexy for a mid-range card though, if it performs as well as it should, and its got the right price, the HD3850 might start to break a sweat :p

I'll jump on your nVidia 9-series bandwagon Char ;)

GeForce 9800 GX2 pics leakage! (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/601851/rumour-control-geforce-9800-gx2-pictures.html)

If the price of this beauty is sweet enough and it can outperform the 8800Ultra, and if nVidia get their Sli drivers sorted in time by its release (you'd think that was common sense huh?), this card could cause a massacre...That's a lot of ifs and buts though, not to mention AMD/Ati is working on a dual-GPU card as well, so we'll just have to see which one will pwn the most, and for what money.

Rogue Nine
01-05-2008, 12:12 AM
Yay 8800GS mid-range cards (http://en.expreview.com/?p=160)

Radeon 3850, watch out!

Char Ell
01-05-2008, 11:50 AM
^^^
Hmmm... Am I the only one who thinks people shouldn't bother with the 8800GS? I mean, why buy an 8th gen mid-range card when you know the 9th gen mainstream card is going to launch within the next couple of months?

I guess NVIDIA wants to offer comparably priced competition to AMD's 3850/3870 since the 8800 GT never made their announced price range of USD$200-250. But since I know the 9th gen cards are coming pretty soon I'm just not interested in anymore 8th gen offerings.

Astrotoy7
01-05-2008, 12:05 PM
ah, theyve finally entered the 9xxx series :D I hope the 9990 lives up to the relative coolness of its associated number :p I wonder if they'll go with 10K after that ?? :p

Im not sure Im a fan of the x2 revival though. Being a former 7950GX2 owner, theyre relative cost and power consumption didn't make dual PCB/GPU cards an ideal choice from an efficiency point of view. One would be better off SLI-ing two 8800GTs perhaps ??

mtfbwya

Rogue Nine
01-07-2008, 10:43 AM
New Intel Processors! (http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTQ0MSwxLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==)

waugh, i knew i should've waited a bit more to upgrade :S

Negative Sun
01-07-2008, 06:27 PM
New Intel Processors! (http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTQ0MSwxLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==)

waugh, i knew i should've waited a bit more to upgrade :S
lolz, more a$$ kicking headed towards AMD :p

I liked the article on the Phenom 9600 Black Edition on that site as well, thanks! At least it shows the Phenom can reach those higher clocks, so that chip sounds quite nice for enthusiasts at least...


More update folks:
1Gb HD3850!!! And an AGP version too! (http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=11067)
Sexay stuff!!! The 1Gb might be a bit overkill like the article said, but still, especially at higher resolutions it can come in way handy!

I'd get the AGP version if my system wasn't hindered by the other components in that way...

Negative Sun
01-09-2008, 08:20 PM
Wow:

New Mac Pro (http://www.huliq.com/46799/apple-introduces-new-mac-pro) has 2 Intel Xeon Quads, meaning 8 cores! Official Mac Pro info (http://www.apple.com/macpro/technology/processor.html)
Too bad they jammed a 2600XT in there, hellooo electricity bill!
Very nice lolz, especially when you look at the entry level price tag as well $2,799...Ouch!



On the same kind of note:
Intel's Skulltrail does 4Ghz on Air cooling (http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=11066)

Hate to admit it, but Intel nailed this one...2 Quads on one motherboard being able to reach 4Ghz on air is nothing to sniff at.
The price tag on these is even more extreme though, for you Yanks, 3,000 for a "basic" Extreme Skulltrail system translates to about $6,000!

Astrotoy7
01-09-2008, 11:13 PM
what are reviewers up to damnit!!

Smaller, quieter, cheaper, more efficient is how progress should be made. These power hungry, cash guzzling replacements for your heater will be ignored by most consumers, even enthusiasts for that matter..

Most 'enthusiasts' I know are always complaining they need to upgrade their 2 year old system(due to mainly being students), thus the meddles with the OCs etc :p

I'd like to see numbers on whether a 1GB framebuffer actually makes a significant difference(apart from to the bank balance of course)

Intel couldnt really fail with their 45nm IMO, the revamp they did with C2D set them on a development pathway to get to where they are now. This seems to be where AMD are stagnating. The 'quad from the ground up' strategy hasnt paid off yet. If priced appropriately, they could still sell well though, which is all they need to keep them keeping on with their spiders and pumas and whatnots :p

Still, until AMD roll out their 45nm CPUs, the almighty judges of the CPU pissing contest(whoever they are) cant rightfully call a 'true quad' winner ;)

For me though, the a$$kicking handed out by crysis to the high end cards in HD/UHD has dulled my keen-ness to upgrade anytime soon ;)

mtfbwya

MJ-W4
01-10-2008, 03:27 AM
^ the positive aspect about the new supersized gear is that 'sensible' gear will drop to more amiable prices. If I still decide to buy a mac, it'll be quite a bit cheaper once a sufficient number of users gets the hots for the latest stuff. :)

Astrotoy7
01-10-2008, 08:08 AM
The question is MJ - do you really need a Mac?? I know I dont - even being a fan of Final Cut Pro doesnt justify the cost of such a thing to me. If it werent for ze games, Id be happy with linux. As I like gaming -- and I like the control/flexibility of DIY-PC, it will always be windows for me. Cant beat those smallforms IMO - small, efficient and pack enough punch to game alongside those monstrosities ;)

For those that have some money to spare, and in particular are graphic/design/visual arts and film professionals, then mac all the way. Everyone else is wasting their money AFAIC. The vaunted mac "ease of use" is no way a justification for the pricetag for some of those things...

mtfbwya

ChAiNz.2da
01-10-2008, 10:07 AM
The vaunted mac "ease of use" is no way a justification for the pricetag for some of those things...
Mac lover that I am.. I couldn't agree with you more... Unless you have a specific need for a Mac (or it's proggies), they just aren't (sadly) a viable option in today's computer market.

Don't get me wrong, they're definitely no waste of silicon...my Mac is a beast, but for most of people's needs (and/or desires) nowadays.. you're going to be more upset than you may anticipate. I have a Mac, with bootcamp.. but I also have a standalone true-blue PC which gets used much more often ;)

MJ-W4
01-10-2008, 11:24 AM
@ Astro: you're right, old chap, I'm only playing on the thought for - as I said elsewhere - ease of use. The prospect of buying a regular machine along with another guitar seems a lot more enticing, come to think of it. As soon as I get it past the missus, I'm likely to choose the latter option. :)

Char Ell
01-11-2008, 11:22 PM
I'll jump on your nVidia 9-series bandwagon Char ;)

GeForce 9800 GX2 pics leakage! (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/601851/rumour-control-geforce-9800-gx2-pictures.html) I'll see your GX2 and raise you an ATI R680 (http://www.gamespot.com/events/ces2008/blog.html?topic_id=26147126&tag=blog;title;1), featuring dual GPU's and an estimated USD$400-500 price tag. Heh. Bet you didn't think I would pull an ATI card out, did ya? ;)

Negative Sun
01-12-2008, 06:46 PM
I'll see your GX2 and raise you an ATI R680 (http://www.gamespot.com/events/ces2008/blog.html?topic_id=26147126&tag=blog;title;1), featuring dual GPU's and an estimated USD$400-500 price tag. Heh. Bet you didn't think I would pull an ATI card out, did ya? ;)
Awesome, I'd seen some pics of it before though I can't wait to see some reviews of it...

Mo news:
Like screens? How's about an 82" Samsung at UHD (3840x2160) resolution (http://lifestyle.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=11144) ?

SSD PC becoming a reality! (http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=11133)
One of the main weak links in a modern PC can usually be your hard drive, as whatever the other components do they sometimes still have to wait on your HDD to crunch away and get all that data read or written...SSD (Solid State Drive) is like a flash USB card, but with loads more storage, and it's kicking traditional HDDs in the groin by breaking records all over the place! Keep an eye out for this stuff, once it's more affordable it's probably gonna be your next Hard Drive ;)

Last but not least:
Blu-Ray + HD-DVD on the same disc! (http://lifestyle.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=11132)
I'm not too sure what to make of this yet, but it would certainly solve some headaches for companies trying to decides whether to release their movies or games on either Blu-Ray or HD-DVD...

MJ-W4
01-13-2008, 02:38 AM
SSD PC becoming a reality! (http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=11133)
One of the main weak links in a modern PC can usually be your hard drive, as whatever the other components do they sometimes still have to wait on your HDD to crunch away and get all that data read or written...SSD (Solid State Drive) is like a flash USB card, but with loads more storage, and it's kicking traditional HDDs in the groin by breaking records all over the place! Keep an eye out for this stuff, once it's more affordable it's probably gonna be your next Hard Drive ;)Well that was bound to happen, I think, as by now many peepz have found out that sticking the swap/pagefile on a USB sticky greatly speeds up things. The SSD will be one of the more notable changes, especially since it handles better and a lot more safely than regular HDs with all their jiggly moving bits in them. ;)

Q
01-13-2008, 05:04 AM
Mac lover that I am.. I couldn't agree with you more... Unless you have a specific need for a Mac (or it's proggies), they just aren't (sadly) a viable option in today's computer market.
Wow. And this is coming from someone who loves Macs. I think the Mac guy just got that kick in the nuts that Astro always wanted to give him :xp: -and it came from Chainz of all people. What the hell is this world coming to?

@NS: IIRC, Char El mentioned something about SSDs quite a while back, and they are an exciting topic indeed. Imagine an HDD with an access time measured in nanoseconds, and with no moving parts that can wear out over time. They're bound to be prohibitively expensive at first, though.

Astrotoy7
01-13-2008, 10:06 AM
Wow. And this is coming from someone who loves Macs. I think the Mac guy just got that kick in the nuts that Astro always wanted to give him :xp: -and it came from Chainz of all people. What the hell is this world coming to?...

lolz, it wasnt the mac guy I wanted to kick in the nuts, it was the creator of those ads, for doing not much about being informative. An ad that featured what Macs are good at would have been more informative, rather than one that harped on gripes with PCs.

love that UHD screen - but even I must admit - OLED > LCD. More energy effcient too.... Since no GPU can kick ass in even 1600p, theres plenty o' time for me me to plan bank heists to get a 8MP 82" OLED, whenever theyre released.

@MJ - I wouldnt even bother pitching the Mac to the missus.... I think she'd prefer to be serenaded by your guitar than lose you for hours point'n'clickin and cursing how you could do all that stuff for 1/3 the price on a PC :D

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
01-14-2008, 02:50 PM
@NS: IIRC, Char El mentioned something about SSDs quite a while back, and they are an exciting topic indeed. Imagine an HDD with an access time measured in nanoseconds, and with no moving parts that can wear out over time. They're bound to be prohibitively expensive at first, though.
It boots XP in 20 seconds FFS!
No time to make yourself tea or coffee anymore while the PC is booting lolz :)

MJ-W4
01-15-2008, 05:46 AM
@MJ - I wouldn't even bother pitching the Mac to the missus.... I think she'd prefer to be serenaded by your guitar than lose you for hours point'n'clickin and cursing how you could do all that stuff for 1/3 the price on a PC :D

mtfbwyalolz - The Mira of Miras is all for a flashy, nifty macsy. Getting just another comp and just another guitar is the hard part. :guiness:

Dear, what do you want with yet another guitar? Haven't you got quite enough? Why another blue one, anyway? Why don't you just have one of yours re-painted [sic]? And that MacIntosh is sooooooo lovely...........
Continue ad lib...

Negative Sun
01-19-2008, 07:37 PM
Here's a couple more interesting ones:

MSI says: "no more old school BIOS!" (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/601902/msi-to-revamp-bios-with-graphical-interface.html)
Interesting stuff, but I wonder if it'll catch on, making the BIOS more graphical and usable might lead to more noobs trying to mess with it and thus terminating their computers, execution style hiya!

Catalyt 8.1 + hotfix(lolz) released! (http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=11262)
I wonder if stinger could confirm if they're any good on those games...

Behold the 8800GS, eh? (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/601884/nvidia-and-xfx-launch-geforce-8800-gs.html)
I wonder if the guys at nVidia themselves know what G to us with what S or X, or was it a T?

MJ-W4
01-20-2008, 09:39 AM
MSI says: "no more old school BIOS!" (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/601902/msi-to-revamp-bios-with-graphical-interface.html)MSI says that these could include games, media players, browsers, VIRUSES... LOLz

And you're prolly right about them noobses, too, Negs.

Serpentine Cougar
01-21-2008, 11:19 PM
MSI says: "no more old school BIOS!" (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/601902/msi-to-revamp-bios-with-graphical-interface.html)
Interesting stuff, but I wonder if it'll catch on, making the BIOS more graphical and usable might lead to more noobs trying to mess with it and thus terminating their computers, execution style hiya!
Does that mean that down the road we might use BIOS instead of Operating Systems?

MJ-W4
01-22-2008, 02:22 AM
The BIOS (= Basic Input Output System) already is a very very small, rudimentary sort of operating system. Also, full operating systems hard coded on chips have quite a long history. The hard disk installed OSs we're using these days are not really ideal, technically speaking.

stingerhs
01-23-2008, 12:03 PM
well, it hasn't launched yet, but the 3870X2 is getting some interesting press. for starters, Asus jumped the gun on the launch (http://www.vr-zone.com/articles/ASUS_EAH3870X2_Photos_%26_Specs/5525.html%20) with what appears to be a much better cooling solution than the reference design.

and of course, we also have the first review of the card as well. (http://forums.vr-zone.com/showthread.php?t=228355) here's the results in a nutshell:
http://img3.pconline.com.cn/pconline/0801/21/1210234_R680vs8800U_080120.jpg
basically, it beats the GeForce 8800Ultra in every test except Crysis, Lost Planet, and NFS: Pro Street. granted, that's with the 8.1 drivers, too which means there's improvement with further driver updates.

no word on power consumption, but its supposed to be just slightly worse than the 2900XT. still, its sale price is expected to be about $400 USD, probably just a bit higher, but its still less than the 8800 Ultra.

my take: AMD finally has a product that can go toe-to-toe with Nvidia's best. if it was only available earlier....

urluckyday
01-23-2008, 01:50 PM
Finally is right...

Negative Sun
01-23-2008, 05:51 PM
well, it hasn't launched yet, but the 3870X2 is getting some interesting press. for starters, Asus jumped the gun on the launch (http://www.vr-zone.com/articles/ASUS_EAH3870X2_Photos_%26_Specs/5525.html%20) with what appears to be a much better cooling solution than the reference design.

and of course, we also have the first review of the card as well. (http://forums.vr-zone.com/showthread.php?t=228355)

~snippedy snip the huge pic~

basically, it beats the GeForce 8800Ultra in every test except Crysis, Lost Planet, and NFS: Pro Street. granted, that's with the 8.1 drivers, too which means there's improvement with further driver updates.

no word on power consumption, but its supposed to be just slightly worse than the 2900XT. still, its sale price is expected to be about $400 USD, probably just a bit higher, but its still less than the 8800 Ultra.

my take: AMD finally has a product that can go toe-to-toe with Nvidia's best. if it was only available earlier....
Thanks for that stinger, that card is serious business, nice job from AMD, and hopefully a good start for a better year for them.

Can you imagine two of those in CrossFire (with the right drivers of course) :)

Char Ell
01-24-2008, 09:52 AM
TGDaily (http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/35641/118/) reports that Microsoft has shipped Milestone 1 of Windows 7 to "key partners."

One of the features mentioned is the ability for this version of Windows to support a "heterogeneous graphics system consisting of multiple graphics cards from different vendors." I believe that means the OS will have the ability to natively use multiple graphics cards to render the display, even if the graphics cards are not the same make and model. Not 100% sure though. :)

Also mentioned is that the OS is targeted for release in the second half of 2009, though Microsoft wouldn't comment on that. I know Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer has said the time gap that occured between Windows XP's release and the release of Windows Vista would never happen again but I'll believe it when it actually happens. :smirk2:

Astrotoy7
01-25-2008, 07:21 AM
no word on power consumption....

why the heck would they! Unless AMD are rolling out some engineering breakthoughs, how can a GX2 card be more power friendly than a single GPU/PCB card, high end or no.!

As a tried and tested GX2 user, I can officially say they are not much fun, from a power consumption point of view, and cumbersome to have in a rig when superceded by a superior single GPU/PCB offering.

I doubt AMD will want to rest on their laurels with that one.

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
01-26-2008, 08:10 PM
TGDaily (http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/35641/118/) reports that Microsoft has shipped Milestone 1 of Windows 7 to "key partners."
Interesting...I also read that they want to take Windows back to basics so it wouldn't be such a resource hog all the time (if you look at how long it takes XP or Vista to load, you know what I mean), will they be able to do it? Time will tell...


Here's another couple of items:
VIA announces "Isaiah" CPU (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/601956/via-announces-isaiah-cpu-and-it-might-actually-be-good/page1.html)
^ I like the name of it lolz, but if it's to compete with AMD or even Intel even in the low-end market, it's still got a long way to go IMO.

Shuttle goes 45nm with Intel (http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=11421)
^ Looks quite interesting if you want to go for a next-gen Intel CPU (note: Astro, remind me to pick your brain about Shuttles again, I'm still toying with the idea if it should be my next rig or not :p )

MJ-W4
01-27-2008, 09:01 AM
Interesting...I also read that they want to take Windows back to basics so it wouldn't be such a resource hog all the time (if you look at how long it takes XP or Vista to load, you know what I mean), will they be able to do it? Time will tell...Hey Negs, you have to give them some time to get the latest stable kernel running properly in their distro. I mean, they're n00bs, so we really can't expect them to flawlessly run KDE 4.0 right away. :p

Negative Sun
01-29-2008, 06:26 PM
Hey Negs, you have to give them some time to get the latest stable kernel running properly in their distro. I mean, they're n00bs, so we really can't expect them to flawlessly run KDE 4.0 right away. :p
lolz, touche ;)

Using sound waves for better coolig, eh? (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/601959/chips-could-be-cooled-with-sound-waves.html)
^ Sounds interesting, if it really increases performance then it's quite good obviously...I just wonder what the retail price would be.

HD3870 X2 very attractive both performance and price wise. (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/601962/ati-radeon-hd-3870-x2.html)
^ I looks like AMD really does have a winner on their hand here, with a GPU that outperforms the 8800 Ultra and is a couple hundred $$$ cheaper...

HD3870 X2 break 3dMark 06 record! (http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=11472)
^ For those who think it isn't fast enough at stock speeds, here's some action of it OC'ed with watercooling and breaking records :)

Astrotoy7
02-01-2008, 12:56 PM
Shuttle goes 45nm with Intel (http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=11421)
^ Looks quite interesting if you want to go for a next-gen Intel CPU (note: Astro, remind me to pick your brain about Shuttles again, I'm still toying with the idea if it should be my next rig or not :p )

pick away negsun ;) and check out www.shuttle.com while youre at it. All 3 of my rigs are shuttles at home. Apart from being wonderfully engineered and great to work in, using them has made a discernable impact on my electricity bill too.

I thoroughly recommend them to people asking, and for those that ask me to build a gaming/home theater pc, simply wont use anything else! Pretty, small, powerful but efficient - awesome kit IMO ;)

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
02-02-2008, 06:28 PM
pick away negsun ;) and check out www.shuttle.com while youre at it. All 3 of my rigs are shuttles at home. Apart from being wonderfully engineered and great to work in, using them has made a discernable impact on my electricity bill too.

I thoroughly recommend them to people asking, and for those that ask me to build a gaming/home theater pc, simply wont use anything else! Pretty, small, powerful but efficient - awesome kit IMO ;)

mtfbwya
Check thy PMs ;)

Fancy spending 23,000GBP (or $45,500USD)?
This PC (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/601980/the-23000-pc.html) can help you do that...Wow, talk about overpricing, the comments speak volumes really.

Or if you'd rather get a new PC instead of a house, sell your current one and buy one of these (http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=11517)...Seriously, 375,000BGP ($740,000USD) for it and all you get is a 7200GS!!! *speechless*

Astrotoy7
02-08-2008, 02:30 PM
Or if you'd rather get a new PC instead of a house, sell your current one and buy one of these (http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=11517)...Seriously, 375,000BGP ($740,000USD) for it and all you get is a 7200GS!!! *speechless*

Im sure P-Diddy has one of those....:D Youd think they couldve upped the price and thrown in an 8800GT at least...a 7200 is crap! Still, for someone that is that vain and rich, playing 1337 Crysis probably isnt on their list of to-dos :p

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
02-16-2008, 05:12 PM
More news peeps:

S3 and VIA making S3 Graphics DX10.1 GPUs (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/602064/s3-introduces-directx-101-gpus.html)
^ I find it extremely ironic to make DX10.1 GPUs with a 64-bit memory interface for the low-end market where you'll be using DX10.1 about as much as a rabbit uses toilet paper...Even the high end can't take DX10 to it's full potential, so why put these features on cards that'll never use them?

Here's a thought, let NVidia buy AMD, yay! (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/602067/nvidia-should-buy-amd-says-analyst.html)
^ Seriously, wtf? How will this help anyone besides Intel as it'll make their stuff more attractive and less confusing if the do end up taking on the high-end GPU market...

AMD says APU is the way to go (http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=11713)
^ Way to go and tell Intel what to do again, why can't they just keep their mouths shut and actually make the bloody things instead of yapping about it and letting Intel take all the credit when they release a better and sooner version of it...
It does all seem very promising though, but will it be enough to keep them alive in the next couple of years?

GPGPUs are the way to go as well apparently (http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=11725)
^ Seems like the CPU and GPU are coming closer together indeed, and I think it's just a matter of time before a company releases a hybrid so purely awesome that it will eliminate the need for both and effectively merge all our processing power in one, whether it be graphics or number crunching...

Astrotoy7
02-17-2008, 09:17 AM
Yes. CnGPUs are the future, no doubt, and apart from the server market will keep AMDs Processors on the map, no matter how the early phenoms go :)

no, nvidia buying AMD(ATI) will effectively create a monopoly and no one wants that !

keep up the great work negsun :)

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
02-20-2008, 07:19 PM
hehe, will do Astro :)

Microsoft giving away free stuff for students (damn those students!) (http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=11854)
^ Quite cool cause all those programs would cost you a small fortune in retail...I didn't know Bill Gates was stepping down either...

Triple-Core Phenoms in sight? (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/602076/mesh-launches-triple-core-phenom-pcs.html)
^ And quite cheap too, if rumours are to be believed, here's hoping AMD sorted out that L3 cache problem and give us some decent performance at a really low price...Call me Mr Cynical but the fact that they're showing up in Mesh PCs doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

Agressive price cuts from AMD to counter nVidia's 9 Series (http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=11904)
^ If the HD3850/3870s weren't insane bargains before, they sure as hell are now, especially since some leaked benchies show that the 9600GT isn't exactly up to spec with even the 8800GT, and I'm liking the joke that goes around saying that Ati did the 9600 years ago and mastered it then :)

Char Ell
02-20-2008, 08:52 PM
Agressive price cuts from AMD to counter nVidia's 9 Series (http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=11904)
^ If the HD3850/3870s weren't insane bargains before, they sure as hell are now, especially since some leaked benchies show that the 9600GT isn't exactly up to spec with even the 8800GT, and I'm liking the joke that goes around saying that Ati did the 9600 years ago and mastered it then :) From what I've read about the 9600 GT so far I am poised to be greatly disappointed in NVIDIA's newest mainstream card. Still no DirectX 10.1 support? Simply no excuse for that. :disaprove I'll wait and see what comes out tomorrow before I pass final judgment but right now the 9600 GT isn't looking all that great to me.

Rogue Nine
02-20-2008, 10:11 PM
Intel Price Cuts Coming April 20th (http://www.nordichardware.com/news,7353.html)

And here I was hoping they'd slash the E8400's price just a bit. xD

Astrotoy7
02-22-2008, 06:02 AM
Still no DirectX 10.1 support? Simply no excuse for that. :disaprove

lolz. Who is using 10.1? DX10 only games are barely coming together... I dont see that many devs have embraced 10.1... I daresay the SDK has been finalised in any event.

So apart from 'wank factor'(bragging you have a 10.1 card) the practicality of it really doesnt warrant such rampant disappointment :D

A card's success is made or broken on its benchies vs price. Simple :p

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
02-22-2008, 05:14 PM
Intel Price Cuts Coming April 20th (http://www.nordichardware.com/news,7353.html)

And here I was hoping they'd slash the E8400's price just a bit. xD
Ouch, if the Q6600 G0 wasn't extreme value for money before, it's more than that now!

Char Ell
02-23-2008, 01:38 PM
Samsung apparently is putting a lot of R&D into SSD technology
On another topic, Yang cited explosive demand in the enterprise server market that caught his company by surprise. "At first it just sounded like an interesting idea," he said. But then demand took off. As Yang explained, companies like Citibank and American Express peg server performance on IOPS or input/output operations per second. "HDDs do 120 to 150 IOPS. SSDs 10,000 to 30,000 IOPS." Because of this overwhelming speed advantage many large corporate customers are opting for SSDs, despite the significant price premium SSDs command compared with HDDs.

Regarding cost, Yang expects to see a 35 percent to 45 percent year-to-year drop in SSD prices. This will be a welcome relief since 64GB SSDs currently can add as much as $900 to the price of a notebook PC.

In the third quarter, Samsung is slated to bring out a 128GB SSD based on MLC (multi-level cell) technology--which uses multiple levels per cell to allow more bits to be stored. But the company sees even larger-capacity SSDs, ranging all the way up to 250GB, possibly before the end of the year. Source: CNET (http://blogs.cnet.com/8301-13924_1-9876557-64.html?tag=blg.orig)

Maybe this means I'll be able to afford a SSD next year. :nod:

Negative Sun
02-25-2008, 07:03 PM
I can't wait for SSDs to become cheaper cause they pwn current HDDs in pretty much every way...

Here's some news that's on pretty much every tech site now:
Intel making 6-Core 45nm Penryn CPUs! (http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=11994)
^ What else can I say but: Ouch!

CrossFireX preview (http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=11874)
^ Up to 3X more improvement can be a good thing I suppose, especially at those ultra high resolutions (2,560x1,600) that only some wackos would ever use :p

stingerhs
02-26-2008, 10:51 AM
Here's some news that's on pretty much every tech site now:
Intel making 6-Core 45nm Penryn CPUs! (http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=11994)
^ What else can I say but: Ouch!my problem with more and more cores on a processor is simply this: most software is still single-threaded. without a lot of multithreaded apps out there, adding more and more cores to a CPU isn't going to add a lot of performance. IMHO, the only great thing about the hex-core is the insane amount of L2 and L3 cache. with that much cache on hand, those processors are going to be faster than the current quad-cores.

tk102
02-26-2008, 02:30 PM
most software is still single-threaded. without a lot of multithreaded apps out there, adding more and more cores to a CPU isn't going to add a lot of performance.Of course the OS will still load balance multiple single-threaded applications across the multiple cores. But you're right, going from 1/4 thread load to 1/6 thread load is less impressive than dropping the load by 1/2 by switching from single to dual-core or dropping from 1/2 to 1/4 via quad core.

Astrotoy7
02-26-2008, 05:10 PM
... Up to 3X more improvement can be a good thing I suppose, especially at those ultra high resolutions (2,560x1,600) that only some wackos would ever use :p

c'mon negsun, envy is not good for your soul...you know you want such a monitor. I saved for a year to get it and it was worth it indeed :D Thoigh somewhere in my mind, I will eventually contemplate a 40" version but would prefer OLED because of size/weight/less power.

Its good to see your eyes are opening to the benefits of SLI/XF, though being a power efficiency nut and Im unlikely to ever go for it, unless they make ultra efficient single pcb cards that will fit in an SLI smallform.... (Im shudder to think at the cost of such a setup, especially with x4/DDR3 added in)

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
02-26-2008, 05:33 PM
cmon negsun, envy is not good for your soul...you know you want such a monitor. I saved for a year to get it and it was worth it indeed :D
lolz, 30" or whatever you've got is a bit too big for me dude, after seeing a very nice 22" panel in action, the Samsung SyncMaster 2232-BW (http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=679564), I'm sure it'll be more than sufficient enough for me, it's very pretty plus it won't need a monster of a GPU if I fancy doing some gaming :)

Astrotoy7
02-28-2008, 09:48 AM
lolz, 30" or whatever you've got is a bit too big for me dude.....

impossible!! you can never have too big a screen :D I want one of those LCD walls damnit :D [/screen junkie]

mtfbwya

stingerhs
03-03-2008, 04:25 PM
well, some interesting news from the Inquirer today. they were allowed to run a 3DMark06 benchmark on the upcoming GeForce 9800 GX2 with what is supposed to be the stock speeds. problem is that its putting up a modest 14400 score. if that's the case, then the 3870X2 could remain the top card for a while until ATI overtakes themselves with the upcoming R780-based cards.

granted, you do have to take this news with a grain of salt since we don't know what the rest of the hardware is on the system they used, but a 14400 score just isn't all that much better than ye ol' 8800 GTX.

article here (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/03/03/nvidia-9800gx2-clocks-revealed)

Negative Sun
03-03-2008, 04:35 PM
It did strike me as odd that they released the lower-end version before their new flagship card, but if that's even close to what their next flagship's gonna be then I feel bad for their fleet :xp:
It'll get a pummeling from AMD/Ati price/performance wise, especially with all the aggressive price cuts AMD is churning out these days...The 8800GT is pretty much all that nVidia has going for them these days.

stingerhs
03-05-2008, 10:58 AM
AMD sticks it to Intel via integrated graphics (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/03/05/780g-changes-graphics-game)
AMD's new 780G mobo's are something serious. it has integrated graphics, but this one doesn't suck as per the norm. the integrated chip is sourced from a Radeon 2400, and it gives you excellent HD playback and reasonable gaming performance which is a far cry from just about every other integrated graphics solution i can think of. combine this with Hybrid Crossfire, and you can have a pretty darn good gaming rig. oh, and i dare not mention the insane overclocking headroom on this thing...

Q
03-05-2008, 03:13 PM
well, some interesting news from the Inquirer today. they were allowed to run a 3DMark06 benchmark on the upcoming GeForce 9800 GX2 with what is supposed to be the stock speeds. problem is that its putting up a modest 14400 score. if that's the case, then the 3870X2 could remain the top card for a while until ATI overtakes themselves with the upcoming R780-based cards.

granted, you do have to take this news with a grain of salt since we don't know what the rest of the hardware is on the system they used, but a 14400 score just isn't all that much better than ye ol' 8800 GTX.

article here (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/03/03/nvidia-9800gx2-clocks-revealed)
That's odd. I've seen 3DMark06 scores like that from a single overclocked 8800GT. :confused:

Negative Sun
03-05-2008, 03:43 PM
AMD sticks it to Intel via integrated graphics (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/03/05/780g-changes-graphics-game)
AMD's new 780G mobo's are something serious. it has integrated graphics, but this one doesn't suck as per the norm. the integrated chip is sourced from a Radeon 2400, and it gives you excellent HD playback and reasonable gaming performance which is a far cry from just about every other integrated graphics solution i can think of. combine this with Hybrid Crossfire, and you can have a pretty darn good gaming rig. oh, and i dare not mention the insane overclocking headroom on this thing...
You could slap in one of those fancy HD3870 on Vapour cooling that Sapphire is making and have a very cool, energy efficient Hybrid Crossfire pwnage machine for very little money...
All that's left is an extremely OC'able CPU from AMD and we're in business :)

Though I'm quite interested in that 4850e they're talking about...Or the Phenom that can OC to 2.8Ghz, I though they couldn't go that high.

Astrotoy7
03-05-2008, 05:54 PM
AMD sticks it to Intel via integrated graphics (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/03/05/780g-changes-graphics-game)
AMD's new 780G mobo's are something serious. it has integrated graphics, but this one doesn't suck as per the norm.

ooh yum! the htpc crowd are very excited about this one. Intels highest is GMA 960, which whilst OK for 720i/pp, still will struggle on a 1080i/p display(especially for vista). nvidias highest integrated chipset was 7200(or 7300) last I checked = bollocks for 1080i/p

see good ole AMD, full o damn surprises. I shouldnt be too surprised, AMD has previously announced they were edging into the HTPC market, and have previously shown off prototype AMD branded entire htpcs no less. Of course they also have firmly established their AMD Live (http://www.amdlive.com/) suite as well, which is aimed at the htpc crowd and includes Orb(remote access to TV), network magic, the best networking proggie in the world! :)

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
03-05-2008, 08:17 PM
AMD gets their 45nm act together... (http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2008/03/05/amd_shows_off_its_45nm_technology/1)

Interesting stuff, let's just hope they've learned their lesson and deliver, preferably when promised :)

Astrotoy7
03-05-2008, 11:37 PM
AMD gets their 45nm act together... (http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2008/03/05/amd_shows_off_its_45nm_technology/1)

Interesting stuff, let's just hope they've learned their lesson and deliver, preferably when promised :)

Im sure people wouldnt mind the delay if the delievered product was bug free, well priced and performs according to peoples expectations.

mtfbwya

stingerhs
03-11-2008, 10:17 PM
Pricing for the GeForce 9800GX2 revealed (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/03/11/9800gx2-woefully-expensive)

well, it now looks like the GF9800 GX2 is going to be a bust. i mean, come on, the MSRP is at $599, and you had better not think that the figure isn't going to get larger when the manufacturers start adding in OC'd versions, exotic cooling, etc. and to top it off, performance is only slightly better than the R3870X2 which can be had for about $450. heck, you could probably get a 3870 and a 3870X2 for the same price and get much better performance.

IMHO, the 9800GX2 is looking to be more and more of a debacle for Nvidia. their only saving grace is the 9600 which is just slightly worse than the 8800GT in performance and costs about the same as a R3850. for now, i'm standing by my prediction that the upcoming R770 launch from AMD is going to put them ahead for the first time since the days of the 9700 Pro and the FX5700 Ultra.

Negative Sun
03-12-2008, 08:48 PM
^ Drivers could still be their saving grace though, and full-AA Crysis benchies as it seems to be a weak spot for Ati cards there...But I agree, at that price point you'd expect the GX2 to blow everything else out the water, with at least a 20-25% increase in performance over its closest follower, as it is the difference in price...


OCZ goes sci-fi with commercial brain controller (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/602163/ocz_brain_controller_in_mass_production.html)
^ lolz, ain't no way I'm putting that on my head for $300

Intel wants some integrated GPU action! (http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=12175)
^ But will probably get none as AMD totally pwns this chipset, and if they can just throw us some good CPUs in as well they might start their long road back to the top again :)
Intel getting beaten by AMD? Oh dear, let's hope there's more of that to come...

AMD sticks new chipset in "Puma" laptop and pwns Intel (again, lolz) (http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=12264)
^ Good to see them translating that awesomeness into laptops as well, and if it's decently priced they'll definitely have a winner on their hands.

Char Ell
03-12-2008, 09:18 PM
I read this the other day on bit-tech (http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2008/02/21/g94_nvidia_geforce_9600_gt_graphics_card/2) So, given that G94 uses the same technology as G92 just with less of it, you're probably wondering why the GeForce 9600 GT isn't a part of a the GeForce 8-series? The good thing is that this was a question that was on our minds too and, after talking with Ujesh Desai, General Manager for GeForce graphics, at the CES Editor's Day, we were told that the reason was because the G92-based products should have been a part of the GeForce 9-series the reason they weren't was simply down to timing.

He explained that if Nvidia had launched the GeForce 8800 GT and GeForce 8800 GTS 512 into the GeForce 9-series, it would have killed a large portion of its Q4 sales on products in the GeForce 8-series not that this didn't happen anyway, since there is very little else worth considering... So I guess this means the rumors of the 8800 GT getting some clock speed boosts and getting rebadged as 9800 GT will likely turn out to be true. ::

Q
03-13-2008, 12:29 AM
I smell an opportunity for AMD to pull ahead with R7xx if they learned from mistakes made with R6xx. We all know that they can do it.

AMD so desperately needs a win.

EDIT -3/14/08: Well, this (http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=3260&p=1) is a start, but I have my doubts as to whether Phenom will ever be competitive with C2D, even with the TLB bug fixed.

Astrotoy7
03-14-2008, 06:35 AM
I smell an opportunity for AMD to pull ahead with R7xx if they learned from mistakes made with R6xx. We all know that they can do it.

AMD so desperately needs a win.

EDIT -3/14/08: Well, this (http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=3260&p=1) is a start, but I have my doubts as to whether Phenom will ever be competitive with C2D, even with the TLB bug fixed.

Even if they pull almost even, with competitive pricing, will still do well. The CPU ceiling seen in benchies is here to stay until games are quad and x64 optimised> ie. another 2 years at least... add to that 2 year formula, enough time for bluray to become standard kit and all the ingredients will be there.

Of course by then, the current hardware configs might be thrown out the window(no pun intended) if the awesome idea of CnGPUs take off. I relish the day when discrete graphics cards will be no longer. All our pcs will look like funky gaming consoles :D

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
03-15-2008, 08:12 PM
AMD RV770 here soon? (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/602217/rumour-control-amd--ati-rv770-release-date-revealed.html)
^ Ooh goodie I can't wait, hope it pwns and they've learned from the HD2000 debacle :)
I really think AMD/Ati's product release schedules suffered greatly from the merger and Intel and nVidia didn't just sit around for them to get it all on track, so hopefully we'll see tighter releases with some killer products more often in the future from them...

stingerhs
03-16-2008, 06:17 PM
well, i've said it once and i'll say it again: the R770 is looking much more promising at the moment than the stuff coming down Nvidia's pipeline. granted, we don't know much about it, but considering that its a brand new architecture that's "better" than the current R6xx series, it should at the least outperform Nvidia's latest which barely outpaces the current R6xx stuff.

combine one of those with a 780G board in hybrid Xfire... :D

Astrotoy7
03-17-2008, 11:05 AM
Here's another wee update:
Asus to make PDA/Smartphone (http://www.gpsandco.com/articles/newsitem.php?id=5203)


Asus have been in the WinMobile game since WM 2003 at least. I know this for a fact because 2 years ago I had a ASUS p505 which was running WM2003. I actually sold it to my stepdau..who promptly busted it within 6 months.. kids :(

http://www.mobuy.com.tw/shop/product_img/hardware/AsusP505_01.jpg

I've never been a fan of the chopped-down smartphone variants, but would be totally lost without my WM6 pda. I use it to keep track of personal and work appts, contacts. The fact that it syncs with outlook for all this is invaluable for me. Winmobile 6 is ok, though not a huge step up from WM5, though it looks like MS is doing some major overhaulin for WM7.

WMDC(window mobile device center) on vista is great, a superior improvement over MS activesync(xp and earlier)

Might even be worth waiting for the WM7 generation phones negsun??

I have HTC touch, which I love the look and feel of. Whilst I manage ok for what I use it for, I recommend people get the dual core version, coz its quicker, and more effectively used as a mobile media device than the first gen version Ive got.

Easily the best site to keep track of all things WM and smartphone is 4winmobile (http://www.4winmobile.com/forums/portal.php). As it's a UK site, all of the stuff about contracts and carriers they may mention will be relevant to you negsun(much less so to me!) I used to be a reg at their forums but only have time to lurk here nowdays :p

mtfbwya

Rogue Nine
03-18-2008, 08:40 AM
Aaaaand the GeForce 9800 X2 is out. (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Description=9800+gx2&x=0&y=0)

Now where are the benchies?!

Q
03-18-2008, 08:54 AM
Meh, those dual-GPU cards are just like SLI/X-fire setups in that they're hit-or-miss.

They'll excel in some games, suck in others, and be mediocre in the rest.

Not nearly worth $600.00 :lol: if you ask me.

Hell, you can get 2 8800GTS 512s and an 780i SLI motherboard for less than that.*


*Okay, well, almost. :xp:

Astrotoy7
03-18-2008, 01:10 PM
GX2s are too damn powerhungry IMO :p Being a former GX2 owner I should know!

Even though a 9800GX2 made 47FPS on 2500x1600 on med in crysis, Im not going near em with a barge pole.. Two 8800GTX in SLI performed slightly less better and the 3870GX2 was thoroughly trounced in HD/UHD ...tsk tsk ATI.. :p

Conclusion: expensive to buy, expensive to run, but is currently the fastest hunk o junk in the galaxy.

the benchies are always at G3D of course
http://www.guru3d.com/article/Videocards/512/

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
03-18-2008, 07:43 PM
I've never been a fan of the chopped-down smartphone variants, but would be totally lost without my WM6 pda. I use it to keep track of personal and work appts, contacts. The fact that it syncs with outlook for all this is invaluable for me. Winmobile 6 is ok, though not a huge step up from WM5, though it looks like MS is doing some major overhaulin for WM7.

WMDC(window mobile device center) on vista is great, a superior improvement over MS activesync(xp and earlier)

Might even be worth waiting for the WM7 generation phones negsun??

I have HTC touch, which I love the look and feel of. Whilst I manage ok for what I use it for, I recommend people get the dual core version, coz its quicker, and more effectively used as a mobile media device than the first gen version Ive got.

Easily the best site to keep track of all things WM and smartphone is 4winmobile (http://www.4winmobile.com/forums/portal.php). As it's a UK site, all of the stuff about contracts and carriers they may mention will be relevant to you negsun(much less so to me!) I used to be a reg at their forums but only have time to lurk here nowdays :p
Cheers for that site Astro! Some good reviews on there, especially the HTC Touch one which I'm interested in.

It's a really hard choice for me, and the end of my current contract comes near and I still haven't found my favorite choice of Phone/smartphone/PDA yet...There's some nice offers from Samsung (F700), Nokia (N91 8GB) and Sony Ericsson (W960 8GB), as well as the HTC Touch you've mentioned which looks awesome too...I'm leaning more towards the 8GB ones, as a music lover, but since flash memory prices are crumbling fast, I expect to see more phones or even Smartphones/PDAs to show up with loads more storage like that.



There's some interesting bits going on in news-land as well:

IBM develops optical switch for multi-core CPUs (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/602247/ibm-develops-light-pulse-switch-for-multi-core-cpus.html)
^ I just read an article in a magazine about this technology (which Intel will probably steal and make better :p ), and it seems like a logical, but also very effective evolution in CPU architecture, can't wait to see it implemented :)

Intel reveals (a bit) more about Larrabee (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/602265/intel-reveals-details-of-larrabee-graphics-chip.html)
^ Seems interesting enough, but will it translate into good graphics performance under both DX10 and OpenGL? Time will tell...

Another 9800GX2 review (http://www.custompc.co.uk/reviews/602262/nvidia_geforce_9800_gx2.html#)
^ Except for Crysis pwnage or ultra high resolutions I wouldn't touch this monster with a ten foot pole, and like the 3870X2, it doesn't add any significant innovations to the GPU market, except reduce the need for a special mobo if you want to use Sli/CrossFire.

Nehalem = Phenom ??? (http://channel.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=12306)
^ Very interesting read, maybe the next generation CPUs might battle on a bit more even ground this way? Doesn't surprise me one bit coming from Intel though :xp:

Roll out some more Phenom, 9750 B3 stepping is good to go apparently (http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=12317)
^ Finally, lets see if they can stop blaming the TLB error and squeeze some clock speeds outta this sucker!

urluckyday
03-18-2008, 09:32 PM
Yeah...Vista SP1 Out today...download it. It makes great even better!

(and I am being serious...don't hate me...)

Astrotoy7
03-19-2008, 04:58 AM
All I can say urluckyday is....backup! A few of my hometheatre pc peeps were getting the dreaded endless reboot after SP1(RC of course). I doubt they have 100% of the bugs worked out :p

No need to get a snazzy backup proggie either(before Ray and negsun poke at me about it)...but if you have vista ulti..it's backup and restore center has a full system backup option. Works ok, but compression of backups is far less effective than other proggies(by 80%) !! lolz

@negsun >> ive already said it > but if you are going for the HTC Touch, dont get single core version... get the Duo!
................remember..........remember........ remember :p

btw negsun, heard of the budget priced shuttle....the kpc?? Looks interesting indeed. Basic specs, but can chuck yer own junk in it. But, I think its an intel only dealie :( The specs are almost identical to my home theatre pc, which is great because more people can use a shuttle for this without paying an arm and a leg.

mtfbwya

urluckyday
03-19-2008, 03:16 PM
Well, I just bought this comp., and so I don't have much to back-up...and SP1 worked perfectly anyway..

Negative Sun
03-19-2008, 06:23 PM
@negsun >> ive already said it > but if you are going for the HTC Touch, dont get single core version... get the Duo!
................remember..........remember........ remember :p
Will do, though I can't get it with my favorite mobile provider, which kinda sucks :/


btw negsun, heard of the budget priced shuttle....the kpc?? Looks interesting indeed. Basic specs, but can chuck yer own junk in it. But, I think its an intel only dealie :( The specs are almost identical to my home theatre pc, which is great because more people can use a shuttle for this without paying an arm and a leg.
Yeah, the case looks utterly awesome, but that's where the fun ends....No PCI-E and cr*ppy Intel graphics and processor, no Wi-Fi (come on, they can throw it in cheap laptops nowadays, it's not too much to ask IMO), no optical drive (rendering it pretty useless as a home theatre PC if you ask me), etc...

For the price though, it's not too bad I suppose, if there was an AMD alternative with maybe just a single PCI-E expansion slot, an optical drive and some Wi-Fi support, I might consider veering towards it :)

Astrotoy7
03-20-2008, 02:13 AM
Yeah, the case looks utterly awesome, but that's where the fun ends....No PCI-E and cr*ppy Intel graphics and processor, no Wi-Fi (come on, they can throw it in cheap laptops nowadays, it's not too much to ask IMO), no optical drive (rendering it pretty useless as a home theatre PC if you ask me), etc...

lolz... the pci-e is the main sticking point for many.(because dual HDTV tuners work best in pci-e) But unless you are a bluray fan, having an optical drive in a htpc is far from a necessity. I dont have one! who the heck watches actual DVDs these days!! For fresh installs etc I have an external drive, the rest is done over remote desktop connection. I use the 5.25 bay to fit another 1TB drive in >> far more useful!!

Im going to wait til they float towards Oz..and see if I can do a basic(non 1080i/p) rig for a htpc before I start recommending them to clients/friends en masse.

* * *

On the news front:

Here's some sad news for those following the fortunes of AMD..
AMD to Lay off 5% of workforce (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/03/19/massive-layoffs-amd) > which amounts to about 800 workers :( This is one area where theyre glad not to beat intel, with their 10,000 worker cull :(

Vista SP1 Early Adopters > Please school up before you install
The Vista Team Blog on SP1 (http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/windowsvista/archive/2008/03/18/windows-vista-sp1-released-to-windows-update.aspx)

HD-DVD will cost Toshiba and Partners(like MS) 1 billion
Summary article from engadget (http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/19/toshiba-projects-669-million-loss-on-hd-dvd/), and for the money minded Toshiba Financial Statement (http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2008_03/pr1901.htm)

Whilst there is a part of me that is glad to see the back of HD-DVD, that sum of money being squandered is tragic IMO. I hope manufacturers learn from it :(

also, a tee-hee from me to anyone who is thinking of buying a 9800GX2
Heat from GeForce 9800 GX2 causing system crashes? (http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/19/heat-from-geforce-9800-gx2-causing-system-crashes/) Really, are we that surprised....??

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
03-20-2008, 06:48 PM
Here's some sad news for those following the fortunes of AMD..
AMD to Lay off 5% of workforce (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/03/19/massive-layoffs-amd) > which amounts to about 800 workers :( This is one area where theyre glad not to beat intel, with their 10,000 worker cull :(
I must point out that AMD firmly denies this. (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/602277/amd-denies-laying-off-5-of-its-workforce.html)

It's not all bad though (http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=12368)
^ Business is business after all, and with a company that's in as much trouble as AMD/Ati is atm, I'm suprised it's only an alleged 5% layoffs...Hopefully they can put the money to good use. Maybe on more things like this:
AMD gets first ever DisplayPort certification (http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=12366)
^ That's good stuff.

S3 launches new GPU (http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=12384)
^ well they're certainly not aiming for the 9800 GX2 lolz

*sigh* I really miss the days when 3dfx Voodoos were pummeling everyone else...

Astrotoy7
03-21-2008, 04:36 AM
only 5%? Tell that to the <alleged> 800 people who are unemployed negsun !!

Hopefully it is just a rumour spread by unscrupulous intel peeps... I wonder if the inquirer has an intel bias...I'm not on it long enough to notice ...

All this new GPU stuff coming to fore... I must admit, I love the idea of hybrid GPU technology(from a power efficiency POV). Imagine combining a hybrid mainboard with a CnGPU setup >> this means that you could potentially get TRI or QUAD SLI/XF without a discrete card(or just a singe card for quad) >> now that is a freakin great idea!

Thats the only way to smash games like crysis at HD without buying a discrete card(or 3) that costs as much as a small car, but more expensive to run!!

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
03-21-2008, 07:17 PM
Hopefully it is just a rumour spread by unscrupulous intel peeps... I wonder if the inquirer has an intel bias...I'm not on it long enough to notice ...
You wonder correctly...It's so far up Intel's behind you can't see their metaphorical feet anymore most of the time :xp:

All this new GPU stuff coming to fore... I must admit, I love the idea of hybrid GPU technology(from a power efficiency POV). Imagine combining a hybrid mainboard with a CnGPU setup >> this means that you could potentially get TRI or QUAD SLI/XF without a discrete card(or just a singe card for quad) >> now that is a freakin great idea!

Thats the only way to smash games like crysis at HD without buying a discrete card(or 3) that costs as much as a small car, but more expensive to run!!
The 780G chipset with integrated HD3400 GPU and Hybrid Crossfire is truly a work of art, not only does it totally pwn in Hybrid Crossfire and say an HD3870 at most resolutions (1680x1050 or below, bar Crysis), the IGP is also extremely overclockable (from 500Mhz to 800Mhz with no extra cooling, and even more with some added voltage and fans)
Here's a nice little graph of it, mind it's only with the HD3450 at the top, but it 's only at 1024x768 as well, imagine it with an HD3870 and a higher rez and I'm sure the results would still pwn!

http://www.legitreviews.com/images/reviews/676/stalker_overclock.jpg

Astrotoy7
03-22-2008, 07:33 AM
nice... but as we've seen, the 8800/9800 performs better than the 3870/GX2 at UHD. When they pop one of those on a mainboard...then things will start cooking ;) Heck, they already do a mobile 8800 for laptops, so it's by all means feasible - moreso an inevitable really ;)

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
03-22-2008, 04:15 PM
nice... but as we've seen, the 8800/9800 performs better than the 3870/GX2 at UHD.
Yes, but not everyone operates at 1920x1200 or above :xp:

Astrotoy7
03-23-2008, 09:53 AM
Yes, but not everyone operates at 1920x1200 or above :xp:

cmon, two years ago, if you asked the average enthusiastic gamer what they play at, itd be 1280 x 1024 >> now its closer to 1600x1200 >> within another 12 months and beyond, 1080 capable LCDs will further drop in price, making HD gaming commonplace, and not just the purview of display junkies like me!

The GPU market has already shifted towards this end... with DVI/HDMI out ports on specialist mainboards and graphics cards... heck, theres no standard vga out on most of the new cards these days. Compared to DVI/HDMI, above 1600x1200 VGA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VGA)(an analogue standard)cant cut it, so the reason for it is quite practical.

Many of us are already there negsun, for the rest it is simply a matter of time.

Its a digital world now negsun...not an analogue one :p

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
03-23-2008, 10:49 AM
I'm old school :xp:

But I get your point, just from a cash-strapped point of view, we enjoy what we can ;)

Q
03-23-2008, 12:36 PM
Astro has a point.

The present gaming "standard" is 1680x1050, which is the widescreen equivalent to 1280x1024.

Prices on 1920x1200 monitors are dropping fast, however, and it's expected to become the new standard resolution for gaming very soon, making affordable high-performance GPUs more necessary than ever.

As far as R700 goes, if AMD can just make the core and shader clocks run separately like Nvidia did, then there is no doubt in my mind that R700 will be competitive. Look at how close they came without doing that. Their GPUs can clock very high, and they've solved the power consumption problem by going to 55nm. Separate core and shader clocks are the only obstacle that they need to overcome to beat Nvidia.

stingerhs
03-24-2008, 12:07 AM
nice... but as we've seen, the 8800/9800 performs better than the 3870/GX2 at UHD. When they pop one of those on a mainboard...then things will start cooking ;) Heck, they already do a mobile 8800 for laptops, so it's by all means feasible - moreso an inevitable really ;)

mtfbwyawell, i say you're missing the point. correct me if i'm wrong, but NegSun was talking about Hybrid XFire with a 780G IGP and a discreet 3450 card. a mid-range Hybrid XFire system doesn't even stack up to a single 3870 much less an 8800/9800. oh yeah, and don't forget that there's also about a $150-300 price difference between the two. now, in my mind, that's like comparing a Porche to a VW.

if you want to make it even, then you really need to compare it to something similar from Nvidia, and at this point, there are no Hybrid SLi systems available much less benchies to compare it.

yeah, i can see your point that only high res benchies should be considered, but your still talking about cutting edge, not mainstream. just because something is affordable doesn't mean that there's automatically large consumer base waiting to pick it up and use it right away. something like moving from low-res gaming to high-res gaming is probably going to take a while especially considering what gamers are actually using.

according to Valve's Hardware Survey, over 70% of gamers (link) (http://www.steampowered.com/status/survey.html) are still using 4:3 aspect monitors, and that means the best you're going to get there is 1600x1200, but most 4:3 monitors usually max at 1280x1024, and that means that low-end benchmarks are still quite relevant in every GPU market.

sorry mate, but it just seems that you're real quick to point that stuff out when it hardly seems like a fair comparison, especially for us folks that still have a budget to consider. ;)

Astrotoy7
03-24-2008, 10:38 AM
sorry mate, but it just seems that you're real quick to point that stuff out when it hardly seems like a fair comparison, especially for us folks that still have a budget to consider...

We all have a budget to consider! If I was so well monied for finances not to be a consideration, I'd be in my beach house in the bahamas, strolling around trying not to bump into the LCD walls :p

You are making the haughty assumption that the results of a DRM content delivery client(aka Steam) are representative of 70% of the gaming market!

Ive definitely never used it, and I know many that can say the same.

Rather than looking at steams results, we should consider the market forces that propel the manufacturers to churn out the amount of product they do. If the mid>higher end was only attracting 30% of the market share **of the gaming market** what would that say about their profit margin??

2 years ago I was playing KOTOR/2 maxed at 1280... I wonder if I wouldve gotten sour-pussed for saying

awe cmon! In 2 years we'll be gaming at HD! Mark my words!!

When ATI and nvidia churn out lower price products that make a decent run at good performance on lower end machines, the gains made also transfer over to playable output rez, otherwise thered be no point upgrading a graphics card, if all you want is 60fps at 1024.

Hybrid and fusion tech is the way of the future, because it combines a way of delivering improved performance, at a lower overhead cost to manufacturers, not to mention the power efficiency advantages for consumers.

To quote Guru3Ds 2008 Cebit report:

....Hybrid powah ... you guys are going to hear so much about it this year, you have no idea. Good stuff for sure....

...You already heard about it here at Guru3D, early staged but obviously NVIDIA is working hard on Hybrid solutions as well. Very simply put, after nForce 790 all their mainboards will get an integrated graphics core.

Their CeBit 2008 coverage is awesome, if you are a gear head and you havent checked it out yet, its a must read! (http://www.guru3d.com/article/content/507/1/)

Of course, hybrid tech, esp in higher end gaming terms wont be getting you 1337 SLI figures in crysis just yet, but something like this (and project fusion) is the kick up the backside the industry needed(from an R&D point of view)

here's a peek at the future ;)
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc288/Astrotoy7/hybrid.jpg

From a curiosity POV, I'll start a poll for what is the max native rez of our monitors. Im curious to see if we get that 70-30% split :)

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
03-24-2008, 03:45 PM
You are making the haughty assumption that the results of a DRM content delivery client(aka Steam) are representative of 70% of the gaming market!

Ive definitely never used it, and I know many that can say the same.
Astro, have you looked at the number of unique samples in that survey?

1,461,426

I've seen government bodies publish reports with less samples than that and claim it to be "representative".
Fact is as well, Steam is a gamer-orientated community, so I would consider those numbers as very accurate in the gaming community, for example it also states the 2GB of RAM is pretty much standard and the 8800 is the top GPU, all sounds reasonable to me ;)

I'm not disputing the fact that gaming isn't moving to a widescreen, Hi-Rez level, just that Hybrid Crossfire with cheap Ati single GPU solutions (even the HD3850 or 3870 can be considered cheap nowadays, or at least very good value for money) can lease a new life to the lower resolutions for todays' most modern games, as they've proven themselves to be more than capable at resolutions of 1680x1050 or below...

Fair enough, 24" 1920x1200 are dropping in price like mad, but to most people they're still a bit too much to stretch a budget to, 17", 19" and 22" even are the sweet spots these days for value for money, and at those resolutions, Hybrid Crossfire can do some serious damage, even with a low end discrete GPU...

Astrotoy7
03-25-2008, 03:01 PM
Astro, have you looked at the number of unique samples in that survey?

1,461,426

I've seen government bodies publish reports with less samples than that and claim it to be "representative".


Negsun!! dig out your stats manual and check what figure for population value ("n") mathematically proven to be constituent of a normal distribution. The Bell curve *never* lies! (answer n=50)

Think about how many gamers there are in the whole world, 1.5m into that number is nowhere near 70%, and hence cannot be said to represent 70% of all gamers... but only "70% of all gamers who use steam" >> The reason is because unlike government assays and scientific experiments, the population has not been randomly allocated/selected, so its power to be truly representative is not as strong.

The native rez poll has confirmed my suspicions that the uptake of 1600+ rez displays is on the increase > the numbers are slightly skewed towards the 12xx range simply due to the fact that so many people have laptops. Interesting to know, nonetheless ;)

It would be good to see what the same poll run at G3D would dredge up :p

Another factor that I'd like to throw in as far as representation is concerned are multimedia pc owners. Due to the advent of HD in TV/Cable/BRay, the adoption of HD displays has increased staggeringly, and for those with multimedia pcs, the GPUs have stepped up a few notches accordingly.

Prediction you can bet you house on: The format wars having been decided, when BR drives hit pcs as a norm, these being accompanied by HD ready displays is simply inevitable. Considering you can now get oem BR/DVDRW for $200US(almost 200% less than 12 months ago), this time isnt too far off!

mtfbwya

Astrotoy7
03-26-2008, 03:35 AM
Dbl post, as it is simply intriguing enough to be a post on its own, and doesn't need to be garbled amongst the above musings

G3D has finally been allowed to publish their 2x 9800GX2 Quad-SLI testbed results.

Definitely some gains in HD>UHD(50fps in crysis at 2560 x 1600, and a fully maxed COD4 which apparently knocked the reviewers socks off at 1600p), but is it worth the phenomenal cost? no freakin' way!

Also, in the higher end games the quad doesn't do much better than the single 9800GX2. Sure, stable Q-SLI optimised drivers and games dont exist, let alone games that are tweaked for it(or x64 for that matter)

2x 9800GX2Quad SLI reviewed... Many Bothans trees died bringing you this review (http://www.guru3d.com/article/Videocards/515/1/)

Multi-GPU gaming is the future, but not in this expensive getup. The quicker we can do away with mega expensive discrete cards, the better. Fusion+Hybrid is the answer, IMO ;)

mtfbwya

Q
03-26-2008, 04:15 AM
^^^
Two 9800GX2s. And... surprise! It still can't play Crysis worth a damn. :roleyess:

That game is cursed. Cursed, I tell you! :lol:

Uh, hey Nvidia: I think it's high time that you released a better GPU, because SLI is a friggin' joke. So stop milking tech that you've had out for a year and a half already just because AMD is offering no competition ATM. Nobody in their right mind is going to spend their high-end dollars on that crap. We already know that GT200 has taped out, so release it already. :swear:

ZOMG!!1! 1000 posts!1!! WOOOHOOO!!!11 :bday2: I want my custom title. How do I get one?

Astrotoy7
03-26-2008, 09:54 AM
^^^
Two 9800GX2s. And... surprise! It still can't play Crysis worth a damn. :roleyess: tremendous cost aside, 50fps at 2560 isnt bad at all. Do we really need to go into all that stuff about how our eye doesnt catch much over 60Hz, which equals the base average of 60fps as far as game performance goes.... add to that the fact that there are no UHD monitors that output 1600p above 60Hz anyway, so 50/60 aint too bad.

Still, I agree that the efficiency of the G92 coudl be better... Though AMDs comparative GX2 effort is an also-ran as far as high end gaming performance is concerned. I can see AMD carving themselves a niche(as they always have) but they are not likely to topple nvidia in the high end GPU game.

And of course, with regards to CPUs, we all wait with baited breath as to what the 3.0GHz+ Phenoms will do...!!

SLI/XF isnt the issue, its how its implemented. Just like having multi CPU sockets isnt efficient as them on one die, multi GPU onto one mainb/PCB is the necessary next step...coupled with optimised games/apps/drivers... and dare I say x64?!

mtfbwya

ps >> congratski on the 1000! add your custom title in user cp>profile. If the option doesn't appear straight away, give it a couple of days before you contact your local neighbourhood spiderman admin to fix it for you ;)

Q
03-26-2008, 10:54 AM
tremendous cost aside, 50fps at 2560 isnt bad at all.
On very high quality settings? ;)
And of course, with regards to CPUs, we all wait with baited breath as to what the 3.0GHz+ Phenoms will do...!!
I hope that they can eventually clock that high. For the sake of competition I really do.
ps >> congratski on the 1000!
Thanks! :)

Char Ell
03-27-2008, 12:23 AM
Still, I agree that the efficiency of the G92 coudl be better... Though AMDs comparative GX2 effort is an also-ran as far as high end gaming performance is concerned. I can see AMD carving themselves a niche(as they always have) but they are not likely to topple nvidia in the high end GPU game. Agreed. G92 is still using a 65nm process while AMD has moved their GPU's to a 55 nm process. I do like NVIDIA's Hybrid SLI concept though. The idea of having a low end on-board GPU coupled with a high-end discrete card that would only kick in when it's processing power is needed appeals to my sense of efficient use of electrical power. :D

Astrotoy7
03-27-2008, 06:59 AM
On very high quality settings? ;)

COnsidering the *massive* framebuffers associated with filling that many pixels a second, you cant say youre massively surprised they couldnt pull it off yet. I dont anyone thought G92 was a 'crysis killer' > especially nvidia. If that was the case they would have released it much much earlier....!

I dont even think their next line is going to do it either, but will probably get close in SLI.

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
03-27-2008, 05:42 PM
I do like NVIDIA's Hybrid SLI concept though.
AMD's already there ;)

I agree it's time for a next generation of cards, and not just re-hashes or double the GPU on one card...Hybrid Crossfire is definitely the height of technology, with the on-board GPU handling the everyday tasks and the discrete one on top of the on-board one handling some gaming...Sounds sweet and energy efficient :)

Q
03-28-2008, 02:27 AM
Sounds like a good idea for a gaming laptop.

Astrotoy7
03-28-2008, 06:47 AM
Sounds like a good idea for a gaming laptop.

funnily enough, the trade off between high performance and energy efficiency is something has been at the core of mobile CPU/CPU design.

Intel got back ontop when they threw out the pipeline heavy netburst architecture and applied their mobile tech design(Pentium M) to develop their Core (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_duo) series.

In the same breath, it can also be said that AMDs mobile equivalent(Turion) are a renowned cool, green and quiet peformer.

Looking at both Intel and AMDs roadmaps, there is more of a convergence between desktop and mobile platforms than has been previously.

The R&D challenges mobile CPU designers face are starting to parallel in deskie versions...as functionality and cost effectiveness demands more kit be crammed onto the same pcb space!

mtfbwya

Char Ell
03-29-2008, 12:56 PM
AMD's already there ;) That's what I hear. Have you seen any of the new Hybrid Crossfire RS780 motherboards available for purchase yet? I'm interested in seeing what is available and if any of the h/w sites have done performance reviews yet. I'm not sure that Hybrid Crossfire is at a point that I would be interested in it just yet.

Negative Sun
03-29-2008, 08:29 PM
That's what I hear. Have you seen any of the new Hybrid Crossfire RS780 motherboards available for purchase yet? I'm interested in seeing what is available and if any of the h/w sites have done performance reviews yet. I'm not sure that Hybrid Crossfire is at a point that I would be interested in it just yet.
I've posted about it in the Hardware Megathread actually, Clicky (http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost.php?p=2436636&postcount=50) ;)

More news :)

7 New Phenoms! (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/602298/amd-announces-seven-new-phenom-cpus.html)
^ Thank f***! Looks like AMD's been studying Intel's recent price cuts and is going for the lower end of the market to swoop some of Intel's ground there, good move IMO, if they can't beat the raw Intel power, beat them on value!
It needs to stay really close to the 100 mark if it's to take people's eyes off the Q6600 that's now sitting lower at 145, which it looks like it's doing:

AnandTech's in-depth review of the new Phenoms (http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=3272&p=1)
^ Very interesting read, and it's good to see AMD is creeping closer to the 3.0Ghz mark, and is finally offering some real competition thanks to it's extremely good pricing towards the Q6600.

HD3850X2 on the way? (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/602307/rumour-control-amd-to-launch-radeon-hd-3850-x2.html)
^ Rumor atm, but interesting nonetheless, and it would seem to fit in AMD's current strategy...If it manages to bring us a card like that for under 150 then it would just plain pwn the mi-range!

zomg new Eee with 8.9" Touch Screen!!! (http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=12403)
^ 1Gb of RAM and 12Gb SSD!!! I wants it!

Astrotoy7
03-30-2008, 08:18 AM
zomg new Eee with 8.9" Touch Screen!!! (http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=12403)
^ 1Gb of RAM and 12Gb SSD!!! I wants it!

ya, with financial year ticking over soon, astro will be giving his current eee back and getting this one... I do think touchscreen is ridiculous unless you can flip the screen around and go tablet style on it >> who wants to reach over a keyboard to write on a touchscreen !! its just doesnt make any sense!

All we need is a hsdpa sim slot and it will be the ubertoy the original OLPC eee could never be :) >>though you can mod it to achieve this with a bit of trickery ;)

Good to see AMD coming into the game with their thinkin caps on. Not overyone wants 60fps at 1600p. The phenoms can do what most people need to do with PCs, and if they can do it cheaper, they have intel beat from a mass market POV......thats where the money's at!

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
03-30-2008, 10:52 AM
I do think touchscreen is ridiculous unless you can flip the screen around and go tablet style on it >> who wants to reach over a keyboard to write on a touchscreen !! its just doesnt make any sense!
That's what a keyboard's for Astro ;)

I think the touchscreen could be good for people (like me) who don't like touchpads :)

Astrotoy7
03-31-2008, 08:12 AM
That's what a keyboard's for Astro ;)

I think the touchscreen could be good for people (like me) who don't like touchpads :)

I dont like touchpads either, but banging my finger on the screen and not being able to use a stylus to write properly is crazy.

mtfbwya

Char Ell
03-31-2008, 09:04 PM
DailyTech - "Creative Says Custom Drivers Are 'Stealing,' Gets Rocked by Protests" (http://www.dailytech.com/Creative+Says+Custom+Drivers+Are+Stealing+Gets+Roc ked+by+Protests/article11297.htm)

I guess Creative's Vista drivers for its Audigy cards don't have the same level of functionality that its WinXP drivers do. So this guy, daniel_k, has apparently been creating drivers that enable what Creative turned off. Creative apparently isn't very happy about what he's been doing and have now told him to cease and desist.

Anybody got suggestions for a good non-Creative sound card? I've been using Creative products for so long now that I don't even know what else is out there.

stingerhs
04-01-2008, 12:05 AM
well, i know that Asus has a very, very good challenger for the X-Fi, and while it isn't as good for gaming, at least it works well for most operating systems. it also boasts a slightly better feature set and a bit more sound quality.

i like it enough that i'm probably going to use it in my next build (ie, when Crysis 3 is launched and i'll need the equivalent of 4 current day enthusiast systems). XP

Astrotoy7
04-01-2008, 10:15 AM
I got a shockin set of ears, I dont get fancy sound cards/speakers.. its all noise to me. I think I love quiet too much... I played most of COD4 with the volume off, listening to the purr of my cats instead :p

Crysis 3...lolz....circa 2011 perhaps, and a Windows 8 directX12 exclusive to boot :p

mtfbwya

Q
04-01-2008, 05:57 PM
Apparently the multi-GPU concept is getting out of hand. (http://www.visiontek.com/products/cards/retail/3870x4.html)

Astrotoy7
04-02-2008, 04:16 AM
Apparently the multi-GPU concept is getting out of hand. (http://www.visiontek.com/products/cards/retail/3870x4.html)

Im 10 hours ahead of GMT here, so its April 2 ;)

Multi GPU is the future...look at the next gen consoles... would anyone buy them if they were designed top heavy like gaming PCs??

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
04-02-2008, 06:43 PM
Hmmm:

Intel to make SSDs (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/602355/intel-to-make-160gb-solid-state-disks.html)

Dunno if I should be happy about that or not...More competition in this area could be a good thing to drive SSD prices down faster and bring more Gbs to them quicker as well.

Astrotoy7
04-03-2008, 04:27 AM
lolz...Intel and their fingers in many pies :) Good for competition to be sure, still, SSDs are a bit out of most peoples price range atm,, Give it a year and a bit ;)

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
04-12-2008, 08:04 PM
Here's some new from the Microsoft front this time:

Gates slips up? Windows 7 in '09? (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/602379/gates-new-windows-next-year.html)
^ Interesting stuff, especially when you look at my next bit of news as well.
Vista has gone wrong in two major points IMO: 1) The god-knows-how-many different versions of it, and 2) The whole Vista-ready debacle.
When Win 7 comes it should be like XP, one "Home" version and a "Pro" one, or one "Lite" (for low-spec or low demanding computing) and one "Uber" version...Learn from Linux and try and reduce all the installation cr*p to a minimum, speed up boot time, comprehensive driver support from the start (I know it's not totally Microsoft's responsibility, but the Ubuntu "just works" theory is quite catchy, and could earn MS some points if they play it right)
With SSDs on the rise, load times should be dropping soon anyways, but making OSes and apps less bloated can certainly make things even better that way.


WinXP just won't die! (http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=12630)
^ I don't see Windows complaining about this though...Fact of the matter is: there's absolutely nothing wrong with XP, it's stable, mature and on most modern PCs it'll run extremely smooth...So as long as the actual need for Vista isn't there, or it doesn't offer any significant benefits over XP, it might end up like WinME and just be overshadowed when Win7 comes. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.

Astrotoy7
04-13-2008, 07:23 AM
The clinginess to XP is no surprise... There is a staggering correlation between mass market uptake of PCs into home/work and the introduction of xp... Link this in with increased prevalence of people using the net over the last several years... hence, *alot* of people out there have only ever known xp, and if its workin', why change :)

mtfbwya

urluckyday
04-14-2008, 09:00 PM
Alright, probably the last thing you want is a rant from a die-hard Windows user, so I'm sorry...
I think that people have to give Vista more of a chance. I understand the willingness not to "upgrade" to Vista on an XP machine, but I don't understand why people are so afraid of getting it when they get a new computer. There is honestly nothing wrong with it, and to be frank, I give it way higher marks than XP on almost all fronts. Stability, while not bad on XP, is increased. The help system is greatly improved. Windows update couldn't be better now. The UI is cleaner (not only looks better, but it is more functional when browsing through folders). And there are many other features I love.
I am not suggesting that you go and upgrade your XP machine immediately, but rather, don't hesitate to use a Vista machine when you decide you want to buy a new computer. This is just my personal opinion though...

Astrotoy7
04-15-2008, 04:53 AM
@urluckday... yes, the vis-hysteria stems from people who were too lazy or dumb to find out if their old school kit was compatible with the new OS. Throw some DRM scaremongering in, and Vista's slow start in the mass market was an inevitability.

I have to admit, in the HTPC world, it was entirely teh opposite!! (usually is)
There was a mass of early vista users... vista media center being inbuilt into HP/Ulti, as well as being far superior to XP Media Center Edition, was polished and ready to from pre public beta, let alone RC1 ;)

I, and many others ran a fully functioning htpc on a pre public beta build for over 4 months without a major hitch.

mtfbwya

Det. Bart Lasiter
04-15-2008, 10:40 AM
Alright, probably the last thing you want is a rant from a die-hard Windows user, so I'm sorry...
I think that people have to give Vista more of a chance. I understand the willingness not to "upgrade" to Vista on an XP machine, but I don't understand why people are so afraid of getting it when they get a new computer. There is honestly nothing wrong with it, and to be frank, I give it way higher marks than XP on almost all fronts. Stability, while not bad on XP, is increased. The help system is greatly improved. Windows update couldn't be better now. The UI is cleaner (not only looks better, but it is more functional when browsing through folders). And there are many other features I love.
I am not suggesting that you go and upgrade your XP machine immediately, but rather, don't hesitate to use a Vista machine when you decide you want to buy a new computer. This is just my personal opinion though...Tried it (Vista came pre-installed on my laptop), slowed down my games and used way too much memory just idling, switched to XP.

@urluckday... yes, the vis-hysteria stems from people who were too lazy or dumb to find out if their old school kit was compatible with the new OS. Throw some DRM scaremongering in, and Vista's slow start in the mass market was an inevitability.Exactly. People who haven't switched to Vista are just lazy or dumb :o

stingerhs
04-15-2008, 11:04 AM
^^^^
i don't know how many times i have to tell people this, but Vista uses more memory than XP because of Superfetch. pre-loading the programs you use the most into memory allows that "free" memory to be useful for somthing even during idle. IMHO, that's a very useful feature, especially considering that it does it not just for apps like Firefox and Xfire, but i also noticed that its doing the same for some of my games that i play a lot like Oblivion and Sins of a Solar Empire.

and kudos that you're trying to play games on a laptop. out of curiosity, have you even tried Vista on a high end machine that's designed for gaming?? 50 FPS vs 60 FPS in Unreal III is hardly any difference at all, IMHO. ;)

Astrotoy7
04-16-2008, 10:04 AM
....Exactly. People who haven't switched to Vista are just lazy or dumb :o

um, nope. any opportunity to be inane, jmac is there.... \o/

lazy and dumb are those who went and bought a copy without checking if their kit was ready. Then they get all red in the face, and make YT vids of them shredding their install disc. stupid.

mtfbwya

urluckyday
04-16-2008, 06:13 PM
There's nothing wrong w/ my gaming rig...a laptop. Works faster than my gaming desktop...w/ XP. Vista is the equal to XP when it comes to gaming...perhaps your machine just sucked if you had problems w/ Vista gaming...sure, if you wanted to look at it technically, there is a slight increase in usage of system resources over XP, but the difference isn't there (noticeable) when it comes to gaming...
People put all their crap on their machines, and when something slows it down...it's the OS! Just remember...whatever you put on your machine can cause just as many problems...

Det. Bart Lasiter
04-17-2008, 10:20 PM
i don't know how many times i have to tell people this, but Vista uses more memory than XP because of Superfetch.Yeah, it's not that the OS itself is buggy and it has a UI that uses way too much in terms of memory/CPU usage.

um, nope. any opportunity to be inane, jmac is there.... \o/G****** right I am. Also take a look at this (http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/08/02/28/1746211.shtml).

People put all their crap on their machines, and when something slows it down...it's the OS!Indeed. I purposely loaded my laptop with viruses and spyware and dicked around with my registry so that I could say XP is way better.

stingerhs
04-18-2008, 12:31 AM
Yeah, it's not that the OS itself is buggy and it has a UI that uses way too much in terms of memory/CPU usage.buggy?? not from what i've seen. i've had problems with drivers, but that has to do with the companies that write the drivers, not the OS. and last time i checked, Aero uses the GPU to render the GUI which frees the CPU for other tasks, and if you have a discreet card, Aero uses the memory on the card instead of the main memory.Goddamn right I am. Also take a look at this (http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/08/02/28/1746211.shtml).and what does that prove?? yeah, people had problems with the computers that were labeled "Vista Capable" that, in the end, couldn't run Vista. that doesn't cover systems like mine nor other systems out there that currently don't have any problems with the OS. what you've posted is just too much of a generalization about something that is related to a pre-launch marketing campaign. does it affect computers that already have Vista installed and running?? absolutely not, and as such, i fail to see the relevance of posting it.

and i'm fine with you debating this, but i'm warning you not to curse like that again. you have been warned.

Det. Bart Lasiter
04-18-2008, 01:09 AM
yeah, people had problems with the computers that were labeled "Vista Capable" that, in the end, couldn't run Vista. that doesn't cover systems like mine nor other systems out there that currently don't have any problems with the OS.Indeed sir, you are clearly a perfect example of the average end-user. And sorry for insinuating that computers labeled as "Vista Capable" should, in the end, be able to run Vista if those who are pro-Vista want others to give Vista more of a chance.

what you've posted is just too much of a generalization about something that is related to a pre-launch marketing campaign. does it affect computers that already have Vista installed and running?? absolutely not, and as such, i fail to see the relevance of posting it.What I've posted is a counter to Astro's statement that people who go out and buy Vista or purchase a computer that is marketed as "Vista Capable" and have it run horribly are lazy and/or dumb. It shows that they could also have been deceived by Microsoft lowering the minimum system requirements for Vista well below what they should have been.

and i'm fine with you debating this, but i'm warning you not to curse like that again. you have been warned.You quoted me before you edited my post :o

Negative Sun
04-18-2008, 06:15 AM
I agree that Microsoft buggered up monumentally with the whole "Vista Capable" thing, because it doesn't reflect the OS as such (by that I mean Vista Home Premium or Ultimate), but it's certainly put a dent in people's trust.

I haven't used it myself so I can't judge how it compares against XP, but I think Astro hit the nail by saying XP is the OS that exploded the whole internet computing generation and not to mention the exponential growth of laptops. For us geeks who've been online since Netscape was pwning IE or before, XP was just another OS from Microsoft, we had Win98 and 95 before that, and I personally had a love/hate relationship with those as well, just like I didn't warm up to XP from the start.
Point is, most people have only ever know XP, and most of the time they've known it as a mature, stable OS which is practically the standard for any drivers and peripherals you might need.

Another good point is (can't remember who said it) the horrible mistake Microsoft made by thinking the hardware side of computing would evolve as quickly as software, that people would upgrade components just to get a spanking new OS...Which makes you think the Vista Basic has been thrown in to keep the low-end market up to date with Vista as well, barely giving you any upgrade at all.
If you've got a decent rig, then I'm sure Vista a a very capable OS, but for most people who just want to use a PC for email and internet etc... (which I believe is a huge majority of people who own PCs), buying a system which can run Vista Home Premium is a bit overkill, hence the upcoming trend of Linux in the EEE for example, or the need to hang on to XP, as they both do all these things and more flawlessly, without costing as much and without needing up to date hardware...In the end, most people just don't need Vista, and it's Microsoft's fault for trying to make us all believe that they do, and I'm glad it blew up in their faces, it's just a shame it doesn't represent what a good OS Vista can be, but in the end there's only one way the finger can point at...

[/rant] *phew*

urluckyday
04-18-2008, 03:38 PM
Indeed. I purposely loaded my laptop with viruses and spyware and dicked around with my registry so that I could say XP is way better.

Yeah, that's exactly what I said (sarcasm)...most people don't put crap on their computer intentionally, so that's why they think it's the OS's fault...no need to get defensive...

Astrotoy7
04-19-2008, 12:04 AM
What I've posted is a counter to Astro's statement that people who go out and buy Vista or purchase a computer that is marketed as "Vista Capable" ...

*reads back his own posts*

aw cmon, I never mentioned people who went out and bought a 'vista capable' pc!!

I was talking about those jackasses who ran out and bought the disc and tried to force it on the P3 their dad bough them when they still had a mullet ;)

Those who bought a vista capable computer and are having some troubles have some legal meandering to do... Dell, Acer, Compaq etc are equally to blame for slapping those stickers on. Who the heck knows what is constituent in the licensing agreement between MS and those manufacturers, which is what any legal action will eventually fall on.

At the end of the day, the average user is squeezed out of the bigger picture, they often are :(

>>>negsun, can you post some juicy hardware news...this stuff is boring! Class actions, stickers, meh... I want FPS, TDP and GPU Model names with numerous XXXs in them :D >>also, w regard to the EEE, due to the overwhelming demand for XP on the EEE, asus will be shipping most subsequent EEEs with XP on it, further driving up the price of what was meant to be a budget pc alternative :( They did themselves no favours with that Xandros interface. You have to do some terminal window tweaking just to get into desktop mode. They should have slapped plain ole ubuntu or mint (etc) on it, to give it that windows familiarity that most people, especially kids would be used to.

mtfbwya

urluckyday
04-22-2008, 04:28 PM
I think that you guys need to listen to Paul Thurrott a little better idea of how this crap gets told by one person, and it turns into fact...Vista isn't as bad as everyone (almost everyone) makes it out to be...

Astrotoy7
04-22-2008, 09:28 PM
I think that you guys need to listen to Paul Thurrott a little better idea of how this crap gets told by one person, and it turns into fact...Vista isn't as bad as everyone (almost everyone) makes it out to be...

oh, I definitely wouldn't recommend Paul T amd his "windows supersite" as a font of unbiased facts !! ;) He got run out of 'The Green Button' (the worlds largest independent HTPC site) because of his ''repeated inaccuracies'', shall we say. He does do an OK job of spelling some things out in a way that average users can comprehend... which is great...as long as its content is accurate!! :lol:

All I recommend is people be sensible, and check for themselves ;) Listening to another persons experience can be helpful(as far as dos and don'ts) but wading through the rants is a tricky thing, and likely to colour ones objectivity about whether a product is appropriate for them...

For those wanting to try vista, you are legally entitled to install a copy of the OS without a product key, giving you a free 30 day trial. Make a partition on your HD and bobs your uncle :)

<<please do not ask here how to acquire a copy of the OS if you don't know someone who has one!!>>

Before you do this though, there are numerous places(online and in the real world) you can get 'compatibility checks' done but these are the golden rules, in priority order:

1) does your mainbaord/chipset have vista drivers
2) does the rest of your hardware(gfx card, sound card etc) have vista drivers
3) Do you heavily rely on certain apps? Check if they are vista compatible
4) do you have >1.5Ghz CPU
5) do you have 1GB RAM (you can scrape by with 512, but its simply not worth the hassle)
5) do you have at least 20GB free on a HD/partition

If the answer to ANY of these is NO, please save yourself the hassle and stick to XP/whatever you are using....

* * *

where's our roving reporter...?? I think we may have to review his contract given his recent absences :p

The Phenom X4 9850 Black Edition Review (http://www.guru3d.com/article/processor/521/)

Here's a snippet for you lazy buggers:

"Fact remains however that AMD's flagship product still needs to be sought in the mainstream market. And fair enough, AMD adopted the pricing strategy to that as the Phenom X4 9850 can be purchased at the $235 price point. And that's just not bad. Once we started overclocking the processor, we noticed that instantly we had a processor that could keep up with Intel's offering much better....

It is likely the cheapest quad-core processor you can find on the market, that's a lot of value & with this new B3 revision, a perfectly safe & stable product."

Competitive Pricing and decent performance - WIN, in my book :)

Speaking of WIN, here's a review of the amusing, but appropriately titled
EVGA nForce 750i SLI FTW "For The Win" mainboard.... clickity (http://www.guru3d.com/article/mainboard/525/)

again, a snippet:

"But this 750i SLI FTW is just an exceptionally good mainboard if your mission is to tweak and overclock. It has everything we as enthusiast PC users want. It looks cool, even comes with multi-channel sound, including TOSLINK optical output, fantastic performance, the sexy diagnostic LED, and it has micro switches for power on/off, reset and now also CMOS

...Final thought: Yeah the 750i SLI FTW went 'for the win' .. and it struck gold. It wins our 'best hardware award' it deserves nothing less."

lolz...they're such proud hardware geeks at G3D ;) Such a recommendation is nothing to be sneezed at... also worth bearing in mind is that EVGA products carry a lifetime warranty.... you cant beat that!

mtfbwya

stingerhs
04-24-2008, 02:04 AM
Specs for Radeon HD4800 series leaked (http://www.tomshardware.com/news/ati-radeon-4800,5223.html)

these R770-based cards actually aren't a really huge leap forward, but if these cards live up to this kind of hype, AMD/ATI will be able to definitively take the crown of Best Video Card away from Nvidia for a while. they're addressing a lot of issues that came with the 2900/3800 series of cards and giving it some insane memory bandwidth to boot. there's also lots of extra stream processors in this one, so it should prove to be a tour de force for those of us that have DX10.

the launch is supposed to be a within the next 2-3 weeks, so keep your eyes peeled. ;)

Q
04-24-2008, 06:47 PM
I don't think it's going to be much of a tour de force because Nvidia's upcoming GT200 will probably spank it, but as long as it keeps DAAMIT competitive with Nvidia, it's still good news.

Char Ell
04-26-2008, 12:49 PM
I'm getting to the point where I want to upgrade my graphics card but I'll wait for the debut of NVIDIA's GT200 to see how it stacks up to AMD's latest and greatest. For the record, of late I've found NVIDIA quite annoying with their nonsensical product lineup. Is it G92, D9P, GT200? 9800 GTX uses the same chip as the 8800 GT. IMO it's all highly irritating that their product naming schemes no longer correlate with the GPU generation.

Negative Sun
04-27-2008, 07:42 AM
Well we're talking about AMD and nVidia, but Intel's looking into this market as well now, here's a bit more info on Larrabee (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/602484/larrabee-will-use-rasterisation-in-games-not-ray-tracing/page1.html).
Looks like they're going for a completely different structure for 3D rendering, but will they pull it off? Give it a read it's quite interesting.

Speaking of Intel, looks like they're not giving up on the pummeling they're giving AMD just now, they've just announce an up to 50% price cut on Core 2 Quads (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/602457/intel-slashes-core-2-quad-prices-by-50.html).
More ouch time for DAAMIT? I thinks so...Especially when you see that the X3 Phenom release (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/602448/amd-releases-x3-phenoms-to-retailers.html) isn't too exciting at all...

Sorry if I've been MIA, lots of stuff going on ;)

Astrotoy7
04-27-2008, 11:30 AM
Larabee and X3 as for the low-mid end/multimedia peeps ;)

Price drops are good news, no matter who is delivering them.

Lets hope R&D of Intel/AMD, nvidia/ATI are doing bananas because software/games devs are churning out are starting to outpace hardware capability....

Considering that BR drives will be standard within a cpl of years, and with SSD entering the mainstream, CPU and GPUs really need to step up a notch... Intel cant ride the breakthroughs of C2D forever, and AMD really need to live up to the promises their roadmap is making to have a whiff of a chance ;)

Im quite happy though, until anyone makes a card that can absolutely murder crysis at 1600p, im not upgrading :D I've been pouring my cash into other crap(satellite integration for my htpc, DLP projectors etc) :D

mtfbwya

stingerhs
04-27-2008, 10:10 PM
Im quite happy though, until anyone makes a card that can absolutely murder crysis at 1600p, im not upgrading :D I've been pouring my cash into other crap(satellite integration for my htpc, DLP projectors etc) :D

mtfbwyaso, you'll be using a Radeon 6850X2 in the year of our Lord, 2012???

XD

Astrotoy7
04-28-2008, 05:00 AM
so, you'll be using a Radeon 6850X2 in the year of our Lord, 2012???

XD

despite my AMD leanings in the CPU game, Ive never been able to shake my nvidia bias for GPUs. It had alot to do with the the CCC frazzling me in htpc builds, with artefacting, custom rez timing sisues ;)

So, in 2012 CE(not really into the Lord), it will moreso be the XFX 109950GTX XXX OC ULTRA edition I'll be keeping an eye out for ;)

It will probably cost as much as a small car, and require a similar power supply as one too :D

* * *

Some News>

9800GX2 in Quad and Tri-Sli, Crysis Still Pwnz (http://anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3271&p=4) and here clickity (http://www.rage3d.com/previews/video/nv9800gx2_quadsli/index.php?p=3)

single figure fps in 1600p...boo! :p

and MS Yanks SP3 for XP, Right before release! Huh?! (http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=11635)

mtfbwya

Q
05-13-2008, 09:18 AM
Well, I've been hearing bits and pieces about Nvidia's upcoming GT200. I'm not going to quote any sources because it's all unsubstantiated crap like Fudzilla and the Inquirer, both of which are about as reliable as a $2.00 watch. ;)

The buzz that's going around indicates a 512-bit memory bus, which addresses a serious bottleneck with the G92, but at the same time makes for an expensive chip. I haven't read anything about how many stream processors it will have, but the general rule of thumb is that a single GT200 card will perform about as well as the dual-G92 9800GX2, and that the new GPU will be about the same size as the G80, indicating a huge jump in the number of transistors.

That's about all I've heard so far.

Char Ell
05-14-2008, 02:01 AM
I'm guessing we'll get official info about NVIDIA's GT200 within the next month or two. I'm looking forward/hoping for something more substantial than bumped clocks so as one might guess I've not been impressed with the 9800 GTX. If I had to get an NVIDIA card now I think I'd go with the 8800 GTS 512.

Astrotoy7
05-14-2008, 04:20 AM
The buzz that's going around indicates a 512-bit memory bus...

Im hearing the same from my old nv beta testing cronies. I didn't include it here as hearsay is not a reliable source of information, and we aim for higher standards here!! :D

Might as well say "my brothers friend like really likes star wars, and like, said they are going to make episode 7-9, y'know,like...yeah"

still, whilst 512-bit is ok, Crysis at Max/1600p isnt going to get pwnt until someone spawns a 1024-bit bus, we all know that :)

mtfbwya

Char Ell
05-17-2008, 11:48 AM
NVIDIA has revealed plans to simplify its gaming product range in order to appeal to a wider audience.

Speaking to GamesIndustry.biz, Roy Taylor, VP of Content Business Development, admitted that NVIDIA's current range of products is overcomplicated and too confusing for many customers. Taylor went on to say the company faced a "challenge" but needed to make its products more consumer friendly.

"It is a challenge that we're looking at right now. There is a need to simplify it for consumers, there's no question," Taylor explained.

"We think that the people who understand and know GeForce today, they're okay with it - they understand it. But if we're going to widen our appeal, there's no doubt that we have to solve that problem," he added.
Source: gamesindustry.biz (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/nvidia-to-simplify-product-range[/url)

Hey Mr. Taylor. I consider myself one of the people who "understand and know GeForce" but fyi I'm not understanding a lot of what NVIDIA is doing nowadays. So yeah, go ahead and widen NVIDIA's appeal in the marketplace but don't go off thinking that your existing customers are all well and good. :dozey:

Astrotoy7
05-17-2008, 12:11 PM
I wouldn't worry too much Char Ell... all that stuff means is a naming convention revamp :) After 9950... 10xxx just doesn't look right. I personally like animal names:

256-bit>Hare
512-bit>Leopard
1024-bit>Cheetah

They should minimise the variation is framebuffer sizes... or abbreviate with

256MB > 2
512MB > 5
1024MB > X

and finally, and add on for those with specialised outputs > eg. HDMI

so, a 512-bit, 512MB card with HDMI out >

Nvidia Leopard5-HDMI :D

lolz

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
05-21-2008, 07:22 PM
New Radeon with 480 stream processors? (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/602601/rumour-control-folding-forum-hints-at-next-radeon-with-480-stream-processors.html)
^ Interesting, we shall see what's true or not, and most importantly for Astro: can it pwn Crysis at 1600p??? :xp:


Is this the nVidia 9900? (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/602577/rumour-control-is-this-nvidias-geforce-9900.html)
^ Again, looks quite intriguing...we might find out more soon enough hopefully :)


Corsair breaks memory speed record! (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/602616/corsair-breaks-memory-frequency-record.html)
^ Another good bit of info...here's an interesting snippet though:

"This could change when Intel moves to its Nehalem architecture CPUs; these bring the memory controller (which currently resides in the Northbridge) on-board, giving the potentially for dramatically cutting latency and improving bandwidth. Triple-channel memory is also expected for Nehalem, which will further enhance memory performance."

This could spell even more ouch-time for AMD who have been using this technology for a while now but are still playing catch-up with Intel's Quads...

Char Ell
05-22-2008, 09:08 PM
According to Daily Tech (http://www.dailytech.com/Nextgen+NVIDIA+GeForce+Specifications+Unveiled/article11842.htm) the new graphics card from NVIDIA will start a new naming convention.
- GeForce GTX 280 (D10U-30) is supposed to have 240 unified stream processors and a 512-bit bus.
- GeForce GTX 260 (D10U-20) is supposed to have less than 240 unified stream processors and a 448-bit bus.
- The shaders on these new GPU's are supposed to perform 50% better than the D9 GPU's
- still only supports DirectX 10.0
- PhysX engine is now part of the D10U shader engine

I guess I'll just wait until June 18 to see if this all turns out to be true but it looks like I won't be buying a GeForce 9900 GTS after all.

Astrotoy7
05-24-2008, 12:08 PM
According to Daily Tech (http://www.dailytech.com/Nextgen+NVIDIA+GeForce+Specifications+Unveiled/article11842.htm) the new graphics card from NVIDIA will start a new naming convention.

I wouldn't worry too much Char Ell... all that stuff means is a naming convention revamp

lolz...now > this weeks lotto numbers will be :

made ya look

mtfbwya

Char Ell
05-24-2008, 12:32 PM
Heh. Yeah, you called it. As long as NVIDIA sticks to a sensible naming convention then I'm good. IMHO the 8800 GT should really have been called the 9800 GT.

I'm eagerly anticipating the comparison reviews for the new AMD and NVIDIA graphics cards next month. I've pretty much stuck with NVIDIA for the past few years but I'm going to give AMD serious consideration this time around.

Q
05-26-2008, 06:12 AM
Well, all I know is that DAAMIT's new 48xx series will have to be one hellatious value for me to want to attempt to tolerate the pathologically hated Catalyst Control Center.

On a more positive note, one good thing about a new generation of video cards is that the prices of the previous generation are sure to tank. 8800GTXs can be had right now for around $200.00, and the next gen isn't even out yet. Good news for the budget-consious that don't feel the need to play Crysis, as the current gen plays just about every other game well.

Astrotoy7
05-26-2008, 11:03 AM
an 8800GTX is nothing to be sneezed at - even in mid end crysis. thats super value ;)

astro

Negative Sun
05-26-2008, 07:27 PM
For people like me on a smaller budget and who doesn't play the latest FPS games (I.E.: Crysis, CoD4, etc...), last gen's top-end cards at bargain rates are excellent!!!

My choice would be between an 8800GT/GTS or an HD3850/70, perfect for resolutions up to 1680x1050 and easy on the wallet :)

Astrotoy7
05-27-2008, 01:25 PM
For people like me on a smaller budget and who doesn't play the latest FPS games (I.E.: Crysis, CoD4, etc...), last gen's top-end cards at bargain rates are excellent!!!

My choice would be between an 8800GT/GTS or an HD3850/70, perfect for resolutions up to 1680x1050 and easy on the wallet :)

more than adequate for that rez. Even with my 1600p, im not budging off my 8800GTS 512 until they make that single PCB card that is a crysis killer!!
(and will fit in my case hehe)

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
05-27-2008, 06:59 PM
and will fit in my case hehe
Nae chance of that happening pal, if anything they just keep getting bigger and bigger... :naughty:

Q
06-06-2008, 12:20 AM
Well, here (http://anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/intel/showdoc.aspx?i=3326) is the first concrete preview of Intel's new Nehalem architecture. Looks like it will be as much of an advance over Core2 as Core2 was over Netburst.

Astrotoy7
06-06-2008, 10:11 AM
Nae chance of that happening pal, if anything they just keep getting bigger and bigger... :naughty:

nah, thats just those stoopid GX2 cards. Who wants one of them. The P2 shuttles can fit dual slot 8800GTS, its only when you get cards with add on cooling kit that they become ridiculous :) With the transistor count jump the next gen of GPUs are getting, they could pull the equivalent of an 8800GTS on one PCB ;)

@Q >>Hav eyou noticed that CPU news is so anticlimactic these days!!... apart from a morbid interest to see if phenom is going to get a decent >3.0 incarnation, its all ho-hum. The performance ceilings have hit.... GPUs where all the action is... games like crysis have thrown down the gauntlet to nvidia and those clowns at ATI. Nehalem or not, any rig is still going to get its ass kicked by the almighty crytek engine :D

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
06-06-2008, 05:02 PM
I wants a Shuttle! But not the rubbish new ones with like 250W PSUs...

Yeah this Intel pummeling AMD thing isn't even funny anymore...it makes it very hard for AMD fanboys like myself to consider purchasing any of their hardware.

Pretty soon I'll have to start looking at Intel stuff for a new rig, unless AMD has a major trick up its sleeve shortly (highly unlikely) or I don't upgrade my PC until the Fusion is out (maybe a bit more likely :xp: )

Char Ell
06-07-2008, 12:22 AM
Well, here (http://anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/intel/showdoc.aspx?i=3326) is the first concrete preview of Intel's new Nehalem architecture. Looks like it will be as much of an advance over Core2 as Core2 was over Netburst.
I've been eagerly anticipating the release of Nehalem. Bloomfield CPU is what I'm waiting for. I'm hoping to upgrade next year. Of course if AMD releases a competitive product I'll check it out too but it doesn't look like the chances of that happening are very good.

Astrotoy7
06-07-2008, 12:23 AM
I wants a Shuttle! But not the rubbish new ones with like 250W PSUs...

Look around at sudhian, a 250W PSU supplying a flex-atx mainboard can do much more... many report they have their 8800GTS running off one. You could definitely get an 8800GT running on one easily :) The whole power profile changes with f-atx, only 2 exp slots, less peripheral slots, and always a good strong 12V rail to the pcie.

Still, the budget kpcs arent the way to go if youre aiming at a gaming pc. The P2 series are the ones built for the gaming crowd, and come in intel and amd flavours.

I dont see any impetus to change my CPU or GPU yet, as the highest end of both will not give me anything more than a slideshow in crysis at >HD.

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
06-07-2008, 05:13 PM
Well I would favour an HD3870, which apparently is more friendly to the environment than any nVidia 8-series offerings , so that might be doable then...I wouldn't slap an X2 6400+ in there either, the 5000+ Black Edition or one of the 45W BE series would do me...

Q
06-08-2008, 08:12 AM
@Q >>Hav eyou noticed that CPU news is so anticlimactic these days!!... apart from a morbid interest to see if phenom is going to get a decent >3.0 incarnation, its all ho-hum. The performance ceilings have hit.... C'mon, Astro. If this news was about an AMD chip you'd be dancing in the streets. ;) I think it's pretty huge, myself.

I don't think that things are as black for AMD as the general consensus would lead us to believe. There are two reasons for this:

1) There have been people who have O/Ced the 9x50 versions of Phenom and have indicated that at around 3Ghz it begins to close the IPC gap with Kentsfield and even Yorkfield at that speed. These reports are not from AMD fanboys but from O/Cers who own Intel systems and built Phenom boxes out of curiosity. If AMD's 45nm die-shrink of Phenom (Shanghai?) can run at these speeds, there are indications that it will at least be competitive with Yorkfield. Shanghai should also correct several faults with Phenom's architecture, like it's horrible cache arrangement.

2)Nehalem rigs will be prohibitively expensive to build until the mainstream versions become available sometime in late 2009 (I think), and they will still be expensive even then because they will probably require much more expensive DDR3 (again, I think). GPUs where all the action is... games like crysis have thrown down the gauntlet to nvidia and those clowns at ATI. Nehalem or not, any rig is still going to get its ass kicked by the almighty crytek engine :D The next generation of GPUs from both camps are set to deal with this shortcoming, and Crysis is more useful as a benchmark than as a game that people will actually play. :D Well I would favour an HD3870, which apparently is more friendly to the environment than any nVidia 8-series offering Huh? Who told you this? Last time I checked, the power consumption ratings between the 3870 and the 8800GT were very similar; so similar as to be unworthy of consideration, IMHO. :confused:

Astrotoy7
06-09-2008, 10:01 AM
C'mon, Astro. If this news was about an AMD chip you'd be dancing in the streets. ;)

morbid curiosity does not equal dancing in the streets ;) I would be very pleased if they released a fusion CnGPU that can do 1080p multimedia :D This would open the door for great small form factor media center rigs :)

Crysis/The Crytek engine is indeed a great functional benchmarking tool....as is Oblivion, FEAR, GRAW etc... not everyones cup o tea to play of course ;)

I dont mind it... I prefer sports n RPG games though, purely a personal preference of course :D

I think the 3850 are a bit more easier on the hip pocket to acquire, which Im guessing is negsuns main consideration.

mtfbwya

Astrotoy7
06-14-2008, 02:41 AM
With our roving tech reporter MIA(negsun is reportedly stuck in an elevator at Skywalker Ranch, after picking up his first moderator paycheck :)), heres some news and reviews to have a squiz at:

PCI -express 3.0 details (http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,2319727,00.asp?kc=ETRSS02129TX1K0000532)

skinny: Twice as fast at 2.0, backwards compatible(ie. your pci-e 2.0 kit wont be useless in a pci-e 3.0 slot)

If you are a tech uber nerdgenius, this may make sense to you :)

The amount of information transferred will depend on how wide the channel is; a x16 channel is the norm today, but the spec allows up to x32 lanes, each transferring 250 Mbytes/s at PCI Express 1.1 speeds and about 500 Mbytes/s at PCI Express 2.0 speeds. At PCI Express 1.1 speeds, thirty-two lanes of 250 MB/s (PCIe 1.1) gives a maximum transfer rate of 8 Gbytes/s, or 16 Gbytes/s at PCI Express 2.0. By removing the requirement for an 8-bit/10-bit encoding scheme found within PCI Express 2.0, PCIe 3.0's 8-gigatransfer/s bit rate effectively delivers double the PCI Express 2.0 bandwidth

Secondly, how about the XFX 9800GX2 Black Edition (http://www.guru3d.com/article/xfx-geforce-9800-gx2-black-edition-review/)

skinny:
Crysis at medium 0AA/16AF
55FPS at 1080p ; 49FPS at 1600p

Not bad ;) Still, GX2 cards are not, and never will be cost or power efficient. Lets see what the next gen of GPUs will do ;)

Of course, the ATI 3870 1024mb offering is still chasing the 8800Ultra.... sheez. Even the most die hard AMD/ATI fan will surely be starting to feel demoralised (covers sig) after the relentless arsekicking they are getting on all fronts from a gaming CPU/GPU POV...

Maybe they should look for some new staff?? Theyre obviously not doing something right! :p

mtfbwya

Negative Sun
06-14-2008, 07:48 PM
Sorry Astro, but I've been doing like a marathon run at my work and it feels like everytime I'm off, I'm still crazy busy...

PCI-E 3 looks good, can't wait to see what new generations of GPUs are gonna squeeze out of that puppy.

I do agree it's getting beyond embarrasing for AMD now, they need a serious miracle to save their rep and maybe even their company.

Astrotoy7
06-15-2008, 01:54 AM
...I do agree it's getting beyond embarrasing for AMD now, they need a serious miracle to save their rep and maybe even their company.

I dont know if they'll go down yet, they always seem to have a place in the middle end, notebook and server market, not to mention the multimedia/htpc crowd(though theyre going to need a performance booster even in that with the increasing uptake of BRay) Also, they seem to be making grounds in the mobile market, apparently having spawned a mobile device GPU that can do '360 level graphics'

Still, the main questions people have of AMD:
*When are your high end 45nm quads coming ?? (are they coming at all?!!)
*When is fusion happening?

A bit of $$$ riding on those two questions alone :D

It would really SUCK to see intel/nvidia take a monopoly on the gaming market(arguably, they already have one).....

mtfbwya

Q
06-16-2008, 07:52 PM
Well, here (http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3334&p=1) is Anand's review of Nvidia's GT200 cards. What a power-sucking monster it is! And Astro was right: Crysis has yet to be decisively mastered. The funny thing is that the 9800GX2 is actually a better buy than the GTX280, as it outperforms it in a lot of games and costs $150 less. :p Ridiculous!

Looks like DAAMIT really has a chance to pull a price/performance rabbit out of its hat here. We'll find out soon.

Char Ell
06-17-2008, 12:18 AM
:lol: My eyes glazed over after reading the first several pages about the new architecture.

Power wise I didn't think it was all that bad. NVIDIA seems to have done a good job of reducing power consumption at idle, coming in 13 W lower than the 9800 GTX while having a lot more stream processors to keep running. But it sure does gobble up the watts when it puts those 240 stream processors to use.

I have to agree that the price/performance ratio doesn't make the cut. Makes me think I should just go ahead and buy an 8800 GTS 512 and wait for NVIDIA to release the GTX 200 on a 55 nm or smaller process. I wonder what name they'll give to those GPU's? GTX 285 and 265? GTX 380 and 360? Whatever. :dozey:

I guess AMD should be revealing their latest GPU product later this week. I'll have to see what they've come up with.

Negative Sun
06-18-2008, 06:46 PM
For 1680x1050 and below, I'd still look no further than an HD 3850/3870, unless you must get max settings and framerates in CoD4 or other such games...

Astrotoy7
06-19-2008, 05:41 AM
But the 8800GT is so much prettier negsun. Surely worth a couple of extra paper rounds :D

http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/video/nvidia/8800gt/883qtr.jpg

mtfbwya

Char Ell
06-19-2008, 09:11 AM
For 1680x1050 and below, I'd still look no further than an HD 3850/3870, unless you must get max settings and framerates in CoD4 or other such games... I'm looking for a graphics card that will generally allow me to play at 1920x1200, medium settings, 4x AA, 8x AF, at acceptable frame rates for most games and won't cost me more than USD$250. As far as I can tell 30 fps and above is acceptable to me. :)

Astrotoy7
06-20-2008, 12:47 AM
Well, here it is folks > ive included a summary for you in the hyperlink :)

RV770 (HD 4850) matches a 8800GT OCX, costs more (http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=579&type=expert&pid=3)

sigh AMD, sigh ;) The horse that seems content with running second, ALL THE TIME!

mtfbwya

Q
06-20-2008, 09:02 AM
It soundly beats (http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3338) the 8800GT and trades shots with the 9800GTX for $200. Note how well it does at higher resolutions.

If it's any indication of how good this card is, Nvidia has announced a drastic price cut of the 9800GTX (to $200) as well as the pending release of a "9800GTX+" featuring a die-shrunk (55nm) G92 and higher clock speeds for $230.

With the 4850 as good as it is, I eagerly look forward to reviews of the 4870. Indications are that DAAMIT has a price/performance winner on their hands. Let the price wars begin! :D

Char Ell
06-20-2008, 09:55 AM
Yes, I too await test results of the 4870. I'm getting fed up with NVIDIA's antics (surprise announcing a 55 nm version of the 9800 GTX, big price drops on existing products once AMD showed their hand, product naming conventions, etc.) so if the 4870 looks good on the price/performance/power metrics I'm looking for I'll likely buy it.

Q
06-20-2008, 11:22 AM
Keep in mind that the 4850 has a single-slot cooler that exhausts hot air into your case whereas the 9800GTX/GTX+ both have a double-slot cooler that exhausts out of your case. Since most of the reviews show this cooler to be woefully inadequate (a la the 8800GT), it would probably be wise to wait until DAAMIT's board partners start shipping 4850s with their own non-reference double-slot coolers.

It also looks like DAAMIT has finally overcome the dismal AA performance of the 29xx and 38xx series. This is going to be a very interesting summer. ;)