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DarthSomething
10-22-2007, 02:35 PM
The previews we've seen show how powerful the Secret Apprentice is... could he as powerful, or even stronger, than Revan? That had me wondering because some of Mace Windu's comments in AOTC seem to imply that the Jedi are no longer as powerful as they were in Revan's time, but the Secret Apprentice is apparently strong enough to make a Star Destroyer crash.

Jeff
10-22-2007, 04:25 PM
Hmm, that would be a good comparison. I think in the end Revan would win. He has much more experience with the Force and was a Sith Lord after all.

TKA-001
10-23-2007, 01:08 PM
Comparing a freaking apprentice with Revan is pointless IMO.

Ztalker
10-23-2007, 03:32 PM
I think Revan was a combination of several dangerous talents. Charisma, Force power, Intelligence. It's the combination of these that makes him strong.
The Charisma to form an army around him, the intelligence to lead them to victory and use them wisely combined with his power that makes him a frontline leader as well. The complete picture.

The Apprentice, on the other hand, is a social idiot (the "Force Wrecking Ball vid" shows he can't have proper contact with Juno and asks his droid to talk to her). His Intelligence seems limited as well, since he requires orders to handle. From Darth Vader, Kotha, whoever. He seems to have no will of his own. This is hinted as well on the site, where he is described to have been 'indoctrined' by Vader.
He makes this up with his pure Force Power though.

So stronger in total image? Hell no. In terms of absolute power or midi-clorians? Yes. :)

patrickmc
10-23-2007, 05:21 PM
He is the secret APPRENTICE, revan was a master.

Most likely the apprentice will become one of the greatest siths.

PoiuyWired
10-23-2007, 07:23 PM
He is the secret APPRENTICE, revan was a master.

Most likely the apprentice will become one of the greatest siths.

Not likely, but he may have converted someone to Sithdom though, knowingly or not.

I would so wish to see him fighting tuskens on Tatooine, and got his behind whipped by the tribal warlord with a hockey stick.

Fish.Stapler
10-24-2007, 01:37 AM
I would chalk the star destroyer and Revan observations more to the limitations of the KotOR engine in comparison with the one powering TFU. Could he have done it?? Maybe, who knows...I'm going with Revan being stronger based on his various exploits and time as a force user.

Prime
10-24-2007, 04:40 PM
The placing of Revan on the highest pedestal strikes me as a bit of fankwankerage...

patrickmc
10-24-2007, 04:58 PM
Darth plaguous (or however it is spelled) was the most powerful sith in my opinion. Making life with midi-chlorians is just amazing.

LordSerion
10-25-2007, 07:13 AM
I belive Revan is the stronger. He knew both sides of the Force thorougly, laid down the basics of the Rule of Two, recorded the ritual of the Thought Bomb, conqered the galaxy almost without effort... The only two Dark Lords I could compare him with are Darth Plagueis and Darth Sidious. Of course, IF Sidious would train the Apprentice instead of Vader, he would have some chance at least.

adamqd
10-25-2007, 03:00 PM
This Apprentice doesn't even officially exist yet, or at least the game isn't released yet.
Revan has earned his stripes and is a fan favorite.
Besides, as said before it's a different game engine and is a lot more far fetched than Kotor, so imo there incomparable.

Jvstice
10-25-2007, 09:28 PM
Actually, maybe the apprentice is not more powerful as such, just more versatile in how he uses what power he has. We never heard anything about Revan combining force powers, but it was said that in total power he was "the heart of the force."

Sort of the difference between being able to lift and throw a two ton car in a general direction and hope for the best, vs carefully targetting with a 1 ton car. Which is better, strength or precision?

LordSerion
10-27-2007, 04:36 AM
Precision, of course.

PoiuyWired
10-28-2007, 02:22 PM
Precision.

But now we maybe talking about throwing a 1 ton car with Precision, or throwing the whole parking lot in a general direction.

Fish.Stapler
11-05-2007, 02:35 AM
The placing of Revan on the highest pedestal strikes me as a bit of fankwankerage...

I know I'm guilty of a little bit of it. Actually probably a lot of it, I find it hard to swallow the cannoniacal superiority of Vader and Palpatine since even with the limited game engine of KotOR it always seemed like Revan did more to me. Now the question is could he have done what the apprentice does if the limitations of the KotOR engine were removed :o

Soogz
11-06-2007, 11:39 PM
I think Revan would win because of the time period that he/she was in. More Jedi, and more Sith. Plus the higher knoledge of the force and the training was obviously better. Plus he/she practically became a Sith Lord on their own. I will take Revan over the secret apprentice anyday, also.

Prime
11-07-2007, 02:15 PM
I belive Revan is the stronger. He knew both sides of the Force thorougly, laid down the basics of the Rule of Two, recorded the ritual of the Thought Bomb, conqered the galaxy almost without effort... The only two Dark Lords I could compare him with are Darth Plagueis and Darth Sidious. Of course, IF Sidious would train the Apprentice instead of Vader, he would have some chance at least.I'm not sure he did all this...

I know I'm guilty of a little bit of it. Actually probably a lot of it, I find it hard to swallow the cannoniacal superiority of Vader and Palpatine since even with the limited game engine of KotOR it always seemed like Revan did more to me. Now the question is could he have done what the apprentice does if the limitations of the KotOR engine were removedBut remember, a lot of what you can do in gameplay is just that. Gameplay itself is not canon, only the story elements are. So when comparing, you have to compare what Revan did story-wise.

LordSerion
11-08-2007, 05:18 AM
Why are you not sure?

Jvstice
11-08-2007, 02:16 PM
Also, it would depend on the nature of a conflict between them I would think. Would Revan have the time to plan out strategic attacks, or would it be a direct confrontation between the two, combat force powers and light sabers only?

JoeDoe 2.0
11-08-2007, 10:19 PM
Well, there are LEGENDARY Force Users then there are ABOVE MASTER LEVEL BUT NOT LEGENDARY Force Users , I would consider Revan Legendary and the Apprentice a very gifted yet not legendary level individual.

Ploorvan
11-12-2007, 05:25 PM
Darth Vader had the most "potential" power, he would have been more powerful than anyone had he not gotten his arms and legs chopped off and put in a cast iron suit

AkiraSWKotOR
11-13-2007, 10:43 AM
The Strongest Sith in the Universe is Marka Ragnos!

Jvstice
11-13-2007, 03:01 PM
Anakin had the most potential power before he got chopped up. But Force power = # of midichlorians in cells. He lost at least half his body mass when he became Vader.

LordSerion
11-13-2007, 04:32 PM
It's not only about potential, it's about how well you can control it as well. For example, Anakin as Vader was more powerful, because his Master taught him how to perfectly control every bit of his remained skills.

PoiuyWired
11-13-2007, 06:01 PM
Anakin had the most potential power before he got chopped up. But Force power = # of midichlorians in cells. He lost at least half his body mass when he became Vader.

Well, its more to it than body mass. I mean, its not like a hutt being a great jedi cause of body mass, or yoda being a weak one. And Secura definitely don't become a good jedi cause of her phat TnA only.

Jeff
11-13-2007, 06:56 PM
But its probably true that Anakin lost a lot of midichlorians when he was cut up. They're probably spread out proportionally throughout one's body so the body mass doesn't matter. I don't really know if thats how it works or not but it would make sense.

Boba Fett 1991
11-14-2007, 11:38 AM
Consider also the fact that there seem to be a set amount of midichlorians in an individual and losing them seems to be permanent.

In going back to Revan, no one know exactly what he did after he disappeared. For all we know he could have accomplished greater feats.

PoiuyWired
11-14-2007, 07:57 PM
So, jedis are more powerful if they don't shave...

Now, can midichlorians be transplanted? Since they can be detected there may be ways to manupilate them.

Jeff
11-14-2007, 08:31 PM
So, jedis are more powerful if they don't shave...I think that's pushing it a little. :p

LordSerion
11-15-2007, 07:02 AM
So, jedis are more powerful if they don't shave...

Now, can midichlorians be transplanted? Since they can be detected there may be ways to manupilate them.

Well, Darth Plagueis could manipulate them. But maybe they're "coded" to the person.

LordSerion
11-15-2007, 07:04 AM
I think that's pushing it a little. :p

Maybe that's why Obi-Wan had his beard... :lol:

Boba Fett 1991
11-15-2007, 10:59 AM
Well, Darth Plagueis could manipulate them. But maybe they're "coded" to the person.
Are you saying it's related to the genetics of a person?

LordSerion
11-15-2007, 03:55 PM
Yes, something like that. Perhaps it is a wrong example, but Grievous had Sifo-Dyas's blood after his transformation into a cyborg, and he had no Force powers.

Boba Fett 1991
11-16-2007, 11:25 AM
Yes, something like that. Perhaps it is a wrong example, but Grievous had Sifo-Dyas's blood after his transformation into a cyborg, and he had no Force powers.
If its related to the genetics, then one could manipulate them to imbue individual with the force. This would also defeat the idea of people being imbued with the force artifiacially.

LordSerion
11-16-2007, 12:26 PM
If its related to the genetics, then one could manipulate them to imbue individual with the force. This would also defeat the idea of people being imbued with the force artifiacially.

Well, in KotOR you had to find genetic samples for the Rakatan researcher. He said that his people once had Force powers, but this changed, and with samples perhaps he could restore that ability.
Artifically imbue one? Like in JK2 the Force crystals did with Reborn? Or using the Valley of the Jedi/Dark Lords?

SidiousHead
11-17-2007, 05:10 PM
Secret Apprentice 0wnz Revan

Rev7
11-18-2007, 02:50 AM
I think that Revan would win. He was a leader and not a follower. This is no the Revan 'fanboy' side of me talking, this is logic talking. Revan was overall stronger, and his skills are a lot more "tuned" than, I would expect, the secret apprentice's skills and powers are. But, of course, this is all pending with the release of The Force Unleashed.

Boba Fett 1991
11-18-2007, 05:43 PM
Well, in KotOR you had to find genetic samples for the Rakatan researcher. He said that his people once had Force powers, but this changed, and with samples perhaps he could restore that ability.
Artifically imbue one? Like in JK2 the Force crystals did with Reborn? Or using the Valley of the Jedi/Dark Lords?

I wonder if how the ability to use the force was used in so many games that it's to hard to explain now. They didn't explain how the force was artificially imbued in the reborn and why it worked, it just did. I am also pretty sure the Rakata had a disease that took the force away and the genetic samples were related to the disease somehow.

GeneralPloKoon
11-18-2007, 10:04 PM
I think its too early to decide, but the secret apprentice did move a star destroyer....

JoeDoe 2.0
11-18-2007, 10:22 PM
It's all genetics, the Rakatan researched wanted the codes so he would try to switch on genes that would make an individual Force-sensitive. (That's my theory) So it's basically inherited, I wonder who could have been Yoda's dad...

And yeah, if you get chopped like poor Ani, you decrease in Force power, I think it revolves around the amount of tissue an individual has.

Jvstice
11-18-2007, 10:48 PM
If its related to the genetics, then one could manipulate them to imbue individual with the force. This would also defeat the idea of people being imbued with the force artifiacially.

Not necessarily. I was picturing Midichlorians as organelles with their own DNA, much like mitochondria or chloroplasts. They have DNA, but the vast majority of it is not in the nucleus of their host cells.

IRL, There are ways to cause mitochondria to replicate independently of the cell they are in to such a degree they cause their host cell to rupture. I'd think a similar thing might be doable with midichlorians in "imbuing" someone with the force. Not that star wars has ever published a scientific principles behind midichlorians or anthing, and it's just my best guess, but it fits both being genetic allowing for inherited diseases (or whole species that either are force sensitive or don't feel the force at all) as well as people like anakin, who have no ancestors as strong as he was in the force.

Boba Fett 1991
11-18-2007, 10:54 PM
Not necessarily. I was picturing Midichlorians as organelles with their own DNA, much like mitochondria or chloroplasts. They have DNA, but the vast majority of it is not in the nucleus of their host cells.

IRL, There are ways to cause mitochondria to replicate independently of the cell they are in to such a degree they cause their host cell to rupture. I'd think a similar thing might be doable with midichlorians in "imbuing" someone with the force. Not that star wars has ever published a scientific principles behind midichlorians or anthing, and it's just my best guess, but it fits both being genetic allowing for inherited diseases (or whole species that either are force sensitive or don't feel the force at all) as well as people like anakin, who have no ancestors as strong as he was in the force.


So you're saying that when the crystals used to "imbue" someone with the force, they some how produced midichlorians inside the cell structure of these people. Star Wars really needs to sort this out or something.

Rev7
11-18-2007, 11:27 PM
A lot of things in Star Wars don't make sense. Sometimes you just have to accept the facts. KEY WORD- SOMETIMES...

Jvstice
11-18-2007, 11:31 PM
yes. Might even be the way it happens with Chloroplasts. Most annual plants do have more chloroplasts during summer than winter. I'm presuming that light energy is what causes them to breed. I wouldn't begin to guess whetehr it's the cold itself, or some kind of hormonal change that causes them to shed chloroplasts in the fall to turn all the bright pretty colors, but it does seem that to me if one form of energy could cause one kind of organelle to grow, a different form of energy could cause that same reaction in another, by artificial means.

It would also give credence to the Rakata's losing their force sensitivity due to a plague, and the Yhuzon Vong losing theirs due to something else.

PoiuyWired
11-19-2007, 01:18 PM
Well, if that is the case then having a blood/organ transplant from a force sensative creature may turn someone force sensative... maybe even eating them alive? Hmmm... those delicious witches...

While we do not see alot of detailed force control in the released trailer... the dude seems to be one of thos e"over 9000" guys. But the lack of control is kinda annoying I guess...

Boba Fett 1991
11-20-2007, 11:27 AM
The lack of control in some aspects reflects the lack of control that Anakin had.

In going back to the original topic, I believe that Revan would be stronger considering he had the confidence to take the risk of going by himself to confront an entire Sith empire following his victory over Malak.

Kadika
11-20-2007, 03:41 PM
Hmm, that would be a good comparison. I think in the end Revan would win. He has much more experience with the Force and was a Sith Lord after all.
yeah, Revan was a Sith Lord but Secret Apprentice isn't. Revan might of been able to move a ship like a Star Destoryer but we might not of known. until Bioware makes its KotOR II (KotOR II: Sith Lords wasn't made by Bioware like the first one was) we will know or not

Christos K
12-01-2007, 05:55 AM
If you put Revan into The Force Unleashed's game engine he would have the power to bring the Death Star down. Revan would own the Secret Apprentice so badly it wouldnt even be funny. The Secret Apprentice would be like a Gizka to Revan.

PoiuyWired
12-01-2007, 10:11 AM
If you put Revan into The Force Unleashed's game engine he would have the power to bring the Death Star down. Revan would own the Secret Apprentice so badly it wouldnt even be funny. The Secret Apprentice would be like a Gizka to Revan.

You mean small, wiggly, but keeps coming back no matter how many times you chop it in half?

Lets hope that its not a emo Gizka with a razorblade, or everyone is screwed.

Rev7
12-01-2007, 04:41 PM
You mean small, wiggly, but keeps coming back no matter how many times you chop it in half?
Are you saying that a gizka can reproduce by itself... nasty nasty thought. If that is true then you would have to poison The Secret Apprentice in order to kill him. But if it takes two gizka to make another, then the secret apprentice is in trouble...

Ctrl Alt Del
12-01-2007, 04:59 PM
Are you saying that a gizka can reproduce by itself... nasty nasty thought. If that is true then you would have to poison The Secret Apprentice in order to kill him. But if it takes two gizka to make another, then the secret apprentice is in trouble...

Nah, it would just take a few seconds before Revan pet and play peek-a-boo with him. :D

Light_Jigi
12-19-2007, 11:24 AM
Revan will win because his the true Sith lord. Remember Revan whas strong in the force, he whanet to learn all he can about the force, plus revan whas the moust promesing studen of jedy order, he whas a briliant military leader, and remember that he lerarned all he can about the force from Kreia after all shes teached all the greatest sith lords. Trust me he has no chance beating Revan!!!

Ztalker
12-19-2007, 02:50 PM
Rev7 wrote:
Are you saying that a gizka can reproduce by itself... nasty nasty thought. If that is true then you would have to poison The Secret Apprentice in order to kill him. But if it takes two gizka to make another, then the secret apprentice is in trouble...
That's where Juno Eclipse comes in :xp:

Light_Jigi wrote:
Revan will win because his the true Sith lord. Remember Revan whas strong in the force, he whanet to learn all he can about the force, plus revan whas the moust promesing studen of jedy order, he whas a briliant military leader, and remember that he lerarned all he can about the force from Kreia after all shes teached all the greatest sith lords. Trust me he has no chance beating Revan!!!
Sorry to ruin the party...but we can't take gameplay elements for fact. The only cold hard facts we know is that Revan is canonically Male, fell to the dark side once, turned to the light and bashed Malak. We have no proof whatso-ever of what Kreia learned him, or the extend of him being 'primising' student. :)

All I mean to say is; We know he was a powerfull Jedi. We know he was a good military leader (winning a war) and we know he was a very good saber duellist. Too me, he's a smart, charismatic and powerfull Jedi. Those three skills together make him a very strong opponent for everyone to face.

Lordjedi
12-25-2007, 05:36 PM
Revan more knowledge

Jedi Eagle 27
12-31-2007, 03:09 PM
Revan has more combat experience, leadership skills, and he/she was a Sith Lord. The Secret Apprentice is just Vader's pawn. Maybe in time the apprentice will get to be as strong as Revan (assuming that he doesn't die in the game), but for now Revan is stronger in my opinion.

Kain Darro
01-01-2008, 03:28 PM
The problem is that the use of the force is a relative thing. Luke could have, without a lot of training, lifted his x-wing out of the swamp on Dagobah if only he was not a sniveling little brat. He had no confidence and did not believe it could be done.

Yoda, on the other hand, knew it could be done and splish-splash, the ship was up and out. Luke was strong in the force, the problem was that he was a useless putz.

The thing to remember is this, size matters not. Any jedi can accomplish any task, they just have to have the focus, training, discipline, and believe that they can do it. The force is a jedi's ally, and if they know it, a powerful ally it is.

So really, who is more powerful? Neither. Revan has training to perform tasks with precision and/or strength. He has discipline and focus, and experience. Can Revan pull a star destroyer out of the sky? Probably. Would he? Not likely. He would find a different way to do it. The apprentice, however, has been educated differently. He has learned to use brute force and ignorance for every situation, and so smashes and crushes with every use of the force.

Kain Darro
01-01-2008, 03:35 PM
I belive Revan is the stronger. He knew both sides of the Force thorougly, laid down the basics of the Rule of Two, recorded the ritual of the Thought Bomb,

No, the thought bomb and the Rule of Two was Darth Bane. The thought bomb was on Ruusan. It was used to wipe out the jedi, and to a greater extent, the sith there so Darth Bane could cleanse the stupid sith from the galaxy. He then set up the Rule of Two so the sith could actualy survive in the galaxy to eventualy snuff out the jedi.

Miltiades
01-01-2008, 08:30 PM
He set up the Rule of Two, yes, but he got the idea from Revan through the holocron.

Aristotélēsticus
01-20-2008, 12:16 PM
better see this (http://www.forceunleashed.net/news/interview-with-sam-witwer/)

Rinku
01-20-2008, 07:01 PM
Dude the apprentice is stronger than we think, Revan was good and well rounded but this guy has got POWER!!!!

Miltiades
01-21-2008, 09:26 AM
Dude the apprentice is stronger than we think, Revan was good and well rounded but this guy has got POWER!!!!

Know that it's not all about pure power. Without the smarts, you're not that good. Anyway, I'm of the opinion you need to take into consideration that the power of the Force that will be displayed in the game was a decision made because it would improve the gameplay, and not to represent the real power of the Secret Apprentice. If I would judge him based on what we've seen on trailers and such when it comes to Force Powers, he could take on both Vader and the Emperor. Luke never displayed such power and neither did the great Masters Kenobi and Yoda. When I'll be playing this game and shooting lightning out of my hands with the Secret Apprentice, I'll be thinking: "He normally would have only half of the power he now displays". :)

YertyL
01-21-2008, 12:10 PM
...Darth Vader discovers someone who is extremely strong in the Force, someone whose raw potential rivals the Emperor, rivals Yoda….This guy’s a sort of photo negative of Luke Skywalker.
Oh man, that's IMHO just ... :barf:
Typical EU :-/

adamqd
01-21-2008, 02:47 PM
Know that it's not all about pure power. Without the smarts, you're not that good. Anyway, I'm of the opinion you need to take into consideration that the power of the Force that will be displayed in the game was a decision made because it would improve the gameplay, and not to represent the real power of the Secret Apprentice. If I would judge him based on what we've seen on trailers and such when it comes to Force Powers, he could take on both Vader and the Emperor. Luke never displayed such power and neither did the great Masters Kenobi and Yoda. When I'll be playing this game and shooting lightning out of my hands with the Secret Apprentice, I'll be thinking: "He normally would have only half of the power he now displays". :)

I completely agree, also until GL or Leland Chee comment on his position in the Force hierarchy, I consider anything too obscure or unbelievable POV or "for the sake of Gameplay".
I don't mention G-canon and C-canon because I saw a Video in which GL and Haden Blacken both spoke of this being the next official installment of the Saga, so what level of canon would it be?

(I too can speculate :))

Serpentine Cougar
01-22-2008, 01:11 AM
Isn't it kind of like when the prequel trilogy came out? Everything looked shiny and new and the Jedi and Sith [at least looked like they] could fight better than anyone in the Original Trilogy. And now this comes along (being made after the Prequel Trilogy), and looks new and shiny with even more powerful fighting moves. I think you kind of have to ignore this kind of thing when looking at Canon.

Jeff
01-22-2008, 01:34 AM
Isn't it kind of like when the prequel trilogy came out? Everything looked shiny and new and the Jedi and Sith [at least looked like they] could fight better than anyone in the Original Trilogy. And now this comes along (being made after the Prequel Trilogy), and looks new and shiny with even more powerful fighting moves. I think you kind of have to ignore this kind of thing when looking at Canon.But I think they were meant to be better fighters than Luke and Vader in the OT. Vader was a crippled old man and Luke had no formal training, while the Jedi we see in the PT are traditional Jedi who spend their lives training and fighting. I certainly hope they're better fighters.

Ztalker
01-22-2008, 06:35 AM
Plus, there are a few in-universe explainations for the 'sucky' fights of the original trilogy.

Par example, we got introduced to Lightsaber form 5 in Episode 3. Anakin's raw and powerfull mastery. It looked a hell lot like Luke and Vader's style from the movies. :)

And the expanded universe claimed Luke only beated Vader because he mirrored the bashy style, not because of his own power (since he didn't have any, like people here stated). Also, in the Jedi Knight games, we were given the 'Strong' style which resembled the 'sucky' looking style as well.

All and all, it makes perfect sense to me :D

Vegetaz
01-22-2008, 07:22 PM
Now, honestly, alls I've got to say to all this is . . . Mr. Apprentice over here looks like he can pretty much annihilate Mr. Revan's face, along with that silly mask he's wearing. I can't seem to place exactly what style he's trying to bring back. Haha.

Nah, I think they both rock. User's of the force. I don't think it really matters or goes beyond that.

Master Nikolaos
01-22-2008, 08:33 PM
The one question that's been bugging my mind is this. With someone with so much power as the apprentice, wouldn't even a dumb humanoid(like him, from what has been infered so far) consider taking the place of an apparently weaker one like Darth Vader? If not, that would point to the fact that Vader is in fact many times stronger that the apprentice only he doesn't use the force in such epic proportions or as often.

By that same reasoning, Revan used more power than Vader, but could be weaker (although unlikely) or vice-versa. What was said about the force being relative is, in my opinion, a valid thought; perhaps this apprentice only knows the use of power but lacks the rest of the spectral view of the force, making him considerably weaker than other Jedi and Sith.

Darth Hord
01-22-2008, 09:04 PM
The one question that's been bugging my mind is this. With someone with so much power as the apprentice, wouldn't even a dumb humanoid(like him, from what has been infered so far) consider taking the place of an apparently weaker one like Darth Vader? If not, that would point to the fact that Vader is in fact many times stronger that the apprentice only he doesn't use the force in such epic proportions or as often.


I could have sworn that i read that Vader might placed some type of gauntlet on the apprentice to control him or limit his power output. Not sure though.

Rev7
01-22-2008, 09:35 PM
Know that it's not all about pure power. Without the smarts, you're not that good. Anyway, I'm of the opinion you need to take into consideration that the power of the Force that will be displayed in the game was a decision made because it would improve the gameplay, and not to represent the real power of the Secret Apprentice. If I would judge him based on what we've seen on trailers and such when it comes to Force Powers, he could take on both Vader and the Emperor. Luke never displayed such power and neither did the great Masters Kenobi and Yoda. When I'll be playing this game and shooting lightning out of my hands with the Secret Apprentice, I'll be thinking: "He normally would have only half of the power he now displays". :)
I totally agree with that! :yoda4

Darth Hord
01-22-2008, 09:52 PM
Know that it's not all about pure power. Without the smarts, you're not that good. Anyway, I'm of the opinion you need to take into consideration that the power of the Force that will be displayed in the game was a decision made because it would improve the gameplay, and not to represent the real power of the Secret Apprentice. If I would judge him based on what we've seen on trailers and such when it comes to Force Powers, he could take on both Vader and the Emperor. Luke never displayed such power and neither did the great Masters Kenobi and Yoda. When I'll be playing this game and shooting lightning out of my hands with the Secret Apprentice, I'll be thinking: "He normally would have only half of the power he now displays". :)

If we are ever to judge the secret apprentice to other characters in terms of power than I believe the most accurate way will be the force unleashed book.

Iron Rose
01-27-2008, 01:36 AM
Revan's powere wasn't just raw force potential. Revan was a master tactition. He was also charismatic enough to lead persuade an army of jedi to disobey the Order and later turn to the dark side. If it came down to the Aprentice and Revan there would probally not even be a fight, Revan would convince the Aprentice to join him.

JoeDoe 2.0
01-27-2008, 02:11 AM
^ See, I believe that Revan wanted to "reform" the Republic as well as the Jedi, I think they learned strength through the Mandalorian Worlds and decided that the current Jedi Order was too weak to stand against the true threat behind the Mandalorian Wars, thats why he captured Jedi instead of killing them, the Secret Apprentice on the other hand is like an assassin (Kinda like Mara Jade, but more powerful)

In a battle between the two it would be a close watch, but I believe Revan would prevail

PoiuyWired
01-28-2008, 11:02 AM
Maybe he IS Mara Jade. Its the forgotten real past of mara, before she got the advanced sex change...

kotorfan84
02-07-2008, 04:31 AM
Three things, #1 I believe it's actually cannon that Darth Sidious was the most powerful Sith Lord ever, followed by Vader. IMO that if Lucas were to remake Eps IV-VI Vader wouldn't seem as lame. People want to compare Vader in the original trilogy to Anakin in the eps 3, and you can't. Evan Obi Wan would seems lame in eps IV when you compare it to his fight with Anakin. And you can't say he was the old man in eps IV cause Dooku owned Obi Wan in eps 2 & 3.

#2 you also can't compare the apprentice and Revan based on what they can do in video games that are 5+ years apart. Seriously the newer character will look better due to advances in technology.

#3 IMO midichlorians (sp?) are probably messured in parts per million or something like that, not total amount, cause if that's the case how can Yoda be more powerful than any other Jedi?

Andeddu94
02-07-2008, 04:03 PM
If KOTOR had had the game engine that Force Unleashed will we would've seen what Revan could really do. But unfortunately no. So many untapped possibilities.........

Jeff
02-07-2008, 06:11 PM
Also I believe it was in the most recent webdoc, or somewhere, they said that all the force-wielders you encounter in the game will have similar over-the-top force powers as the Apprentice. When you look at it that way he's nowhere near Revan.

Aristotélēsticus
02-07-2008, 07:42 PM
I can see what your point is, but regardless of what the player can do in the game it has been said that the Apprentice represents a "Dark Side Version" of Luke Skywalker let alone that Vader held this guy in such a high esteem so that he seeks to overthrow the Emperor using his help.

Ztalker
02-08-2008, 05:46 AM
Darth Moeller wrote:
Also I believe it was in the most recent webdoc, or somewhere, they said that all the force-wielders you encounter in the game will have similar over-the-top force powers as the Apprentice. When you look at it that way he's nowhere near Revan.
Kudo's +1 :)

It's a gameplay choice to make this all over the top. Just like it was a 'gameplay' or 'coolness' thing to make Anakin destroy the operating room with a shout. You need to look through those things.

For example: The movies make Grievous an immensely powerfull warrior who uses 4 lightsabers. He has mastered every single Lightsaber form and can do acrobatics no other Jedi/Sith can do. Then why did Obi-Wan beat him?

Same example: How could 24 year old Luke Skywalker, who had 3 years of Jedi training, beat a Sith Lord who has been peaking in power for...those same 24 years?

Just start from the (recent) movies and continue from there. Not every canon material is essentially 'canon' but rather artistic license.

Serpentine Cougar
02-10-2008, 01:02 AM
The movies make Grievous an immensely powerfull warrior who uses 4 lightsabers. He has mastered every single Lightsaber form and can do acrobatics no other Jedi/Sith can do. Then why did Obi-Wan beat him?

Same example: How could 24 year old Luke Skywalker, who had 3 years of Jedi training, beat a Sith Lord who has been peaking in power for...those same 24 years?

Luck might have some part to play in all this....

adamqd
02-10-2008, 10:38 AM
"There is no such thing as luck... only the force"- Obi-Wan Kenobi

DAWUSS
02-10-2008, 11:45 PM
If you put Revan into The Force Unleashed's game engine he would have the power to bring the Death Star down. Revan would own the Secret Apprentice so badly it wouldnt even be funny. The Secret Apprentice would be like a Gizka to Revan.

:lol:

/highfive

If KOTOR had had the game engine that Force Unleashed will we would've seen what Revan could really do. But unfortunately no. So many untapped possibilities.........


I think if someone was talented with models and cinematics, a YouTube video depicting Revan vs. Darth Vader's Secret Apprentice would help answer some of those questions.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

But as of right now, I think Revan has the advantage over the Apprentice in several areas, primarily because Revan is a proven product who has demonstrated his talents (which have earned him fear and respect from the Mandalorians, Jedi, Republic, and Sith [and every faction less important than them]) while the Apprentice has really yet to make his mark on the galaxy.

Sure, there are several comparisons already (their posses include a hot woman and a droid [though IMO HK-47 kicks PROXY's wires and bolts any day of the week, and that's a fact]), but the Apprentice isn't quite at Revan's level yet. Whether or not he would get there and possibly pass him up remains to be seen.

GalenMarek
05-05-2009, 01:47 PM
Starkiller is the most powerful force user(yet). he was died in his own super force repulse:P

Darth Eclipse
05-06-2009, 02:18 PM
I saw in an interview about The Force Unleashed somebody asked somebody that helped make TFU if Starkiller could kill Revan and the guy replied that he would own Revan...I don't believe him though.

shukkoku
05-06-2009, 11:27 PM
I think Darth Bane beats the secret apprentice, He was strong enough to rebuild the sith, not necessarily through strength in the force but a combination of cunning and intelligence.
Not to mention that he- at one point- had the orbalisks which made him practically invincable

GalenMarek
05-07-2009, 07:32 AM
you're right, but Starkiller would kill Bane in a duel

Admin
06-10-2009, 12:39 AM
I believe Revan with pure skill would defeat the apprentice. The Apprentice obviously had to focus really hard when using his strongest powers. Revan potentially has battle meditation. That would definitely help. As said earlier he has mastered both sides of the force as well. Every bit helps.

ironheart
06-10-2009, 12:48 AM
Phah, Revan would totally win. 'Cause... it's Revan.

Yeah.

WraithPrince
06-10-2009, 08:42 AM
Revan potentially has battle meditation. That would definitely help. As said earlier he has mastered both sides of the force as well. Every bit helps.

When the heck did Revan get Battle meditation? im pretty sure it was Bastila then in k2 Exile could Learn it.

He may have mastered them both but once he got mind wiped he forgot the whole Dark side bit, probably forgot his military stratigizing even though most of it envlolved 100 people getting killed.

mikrex
06-22-2009, 05:10 AM
Revan would totally PWED Starkiller.

Rabish Bini
07-06-2009, 12:40 AM
Revan would win, with the whole master strategist and Force power and whatnot.

Not to mention KotOR and TSL are a million times better than TFU.

Trench
07-06-2009, 08:10 PM
Blasphemy! Revan was power!:D
LucasArts should do a remake of KotOR with the TFU game engine. Same storyline, plot, characters, etc, but moved to the awesome game engine used by TFU. I'd love to swing my Wii lightsaber as Revan.
And if they did, the developers should be given all the time they need to do it.
And they should make it "moddable".
I am done:D

Master Shake
07-31-2009, 01:01 AM
Ask yourself one question,

does Starkiller have the balls to take on the entire True Sith by himself?

WraithPrince
07-31-2009, 10:16 AM
Hes kind of like born 3000 years or so after everyone forgot about them and he kicked the bucket before he could do anything.

Klw
08-02-2009, 06:17 PM
I've never played Revan's games, but I just want to say this to fuel the discussion: Would Revan be able to defeat Lord Vader and then essentially hold his own with Darth Sidious? Would he be able to hold Sidious's lightning back? Just a thought . . .

Also, Revan being a Sith Master doesn't really prove anything. Starkiller killed a Jedi Master and "defeated" two Sith Masters.

You should start by asking, "Would Revan be able to handle Darth Sidious?"

Marek definitely could. And don't say that Sidious still ended up defeating Marek; he killed himself to destroy Vader's squadron of soldiers. It has often been speculated that if he had lived, he would have gotten even more powerful.

Rabish Bini
08-03-2009, 06:58 AM
I've never played Revan's games, but I just want to say this to fuel the discussion: Would Revan be able to defeat Lord Vader and then essentially hold his own with Darth Sidious? Would he be able to hold Sidious's lightning back? Just a thought . . .

Also, Revan being a Sith Master doesn't really prove anything. Starkiller killed a Jedi Master and "defeated" two Sith Masters.

You should start by asking, "Would Revan be able to handle Darth Sidious?"

Play KotOR I and II..
It'll change your perspective.

Klw
08-03-2009, 02:14 PM
But I'm asking you. So is your answer "Yes, Revan would be able to handle Darth Sidious."?

I wasn't trying to make an argument in favor of Starkiller; I was just trying to bring up a few good things about Starkiller that all of the Revan fans seemed to be ignoring, and fuel the discussion.

And I already know that TFU's game engine exaggerates the force a lot more than KOTOR; I don't have to buy an older game to find that out.

We're talking about their actual canon feats. Do Revan's canon duels outdo Starkiller's? Again, this is just a point to discuss, not an argument in favor of Marek.

Rabish Bini
08-06-2009, 04:30 AM
But I'm asking you. So is your answer "Yes, Revan would be able to handle Darth Sidious."?

I wasn't trying to make an argument in favor of Starkiller; I was just trying to bring up a few good things about Starkiller that all of the Revan fans seemed to be ignoring, and fuel the discussion.

And I already know that TFU's game engine exaggerates the force a lot more than KOTOR; I don't have to buy an older game to find that out.

We're talking about their actual canon feats. Do Revan's canon duels outdo Starkiller's? Again, this is just a point to discuss, not an argument in favor of Marek.
I reckon Revan could take him, it'd be close, but I think Revan can do it. He'd definately be able to take out Starkiller.

WraithPrince
08-06-2009, 01:57 PM
Revan did always have like 2 other people with him when he was fighting groups of dark jedi the only sith he fought alone was malak im pretty sure.

kuraiken
08-08-2009, 11:25 AM
Revan is, by far, stronger.

As some already mentioned - STFU exaggerates the Force and it's use, just to "blow minds" by awesome power.
If Revan and his potential as "the heart of the Force" were translated into STUF's engine, he would be almost without limits.

A few things:

1. Darth Bane found Darth Revan's holocron on Lethon and learned from the knowledge stored within. He felt that the knowledge hidden within surpassed the entirety of the archives of the Korribean Academy. It was through this holocron, that Darth Bane received a lot of the knowledge, wisdom and power that enabled him to reshape the system of the Sith.
Since Revan became more then a Jedi or a Sith Lord after Kotor (Malak, in the moment of defeat, tells Revan that he is now more powerful then even during his reign as Sith Lord), and from the liklyhood that Darth Revan most likely did not include his full knowledge in the holocron, Revan later on must have been far more powerful then the shadow left in his holocron.

2. During the War with the Mandalorians he was the most feared warrior on every battlefield, and in the end killed Mandolre the Ultimate.
As a Sith Lord he defeated countless Jedis, Knights and Masters, driving the entire Jedi order into despair.
And during the time where he had to regain his memories, he repeated the slaughter on the Sith.
Among the defeated are Darth Bandon (Darth Malak's apprentice), Uthar Wyn, the leader of the Korribean academy, Bendak Starkiller, Calo Nord, all who had quite the repuation.

Beneath Korribean, in the tomb of the Sith Lord Naga Sadow, he fought alone with two terentatek, 3.2 metre high beasts that are immune to the force and eat jedis as favorite dish for dinner.

Two of the most notable feats are his victories over Bastila and Darth Malak on the starforge.
Bastila, who during her time with Revan became a powerful jedi, had been corrupted and turned to the dark side by Malak. She fought against Revan while being empowered by the Star Forge, an ancient over 25.000 year old semi-living automated shipyard, that drained energy from the nearby sun and the dark force. You can only imagine what powers she could wield under those conditions - and was still defeated.

Darth Malak, most likely drawing from the Star Forge as well, also used captured Jedi to drain them as additional power supply. He still did not win.

And finally, after the destruction of the Star Forge, he left to fight against the true sith, who were behind the Mandalorian War and the reason why the Jedi hesitated to intervene in the conflict.

Now while we can only guess, we know that the true sith intended to weaken the Republic with the Mandalorian War, and yet, it is only 300 years later that they invade Republic space, lead by an over 1.300 year old ancient Sith Lord.
Now is it just me or does someone agree that it seems very likely that our friend Revan managed to somehow delay the invasion of the true Sith by 300 years?

And I believe that the new MMORPG by Bioware will shed some light into this.

WraithPrince
08-08-2009, 02:41 PM
Revan is, by far, stronger.


2. During the War with the Mandalorians he was the most feared warrior on every battlefield, and in the end killed Mandolre the Ultimate.
As a Sith Lord he defeated countless Jedis, Knights and Masters, driving the entire Jedi order into despair.
And during the time where he had to regain his memories, he repeated the slaughter on the Sith.
Among the defeated are Darth Bandon (Darth Malak's apprentice), Uthar Wyn, the leader of the Korribean academy, Bendak Starkiller, Calo Nord, all who had quite the repuation.


Conan the Barbarian was also a feared warrior >_>

You also gotta think that Revan was a jedi and was fighting against non force sensatives so he could predict their moves with the force even if the mandalorians were great warriors they can't predict moves that well.

onto Starkiller

Starkiller was able to hold his own against a Sith lord who fought i think 3-5 Jedi masters off at the same time killing 4 of them in about like 30 seconds.
Starkiller may have died at the end of his fight with him but that was because stupid old man wouldn't let him kill Palpatine when he had the chance.

Darth Eclipse
08-08-2009, 04:13 PM
He is the secret APPRENTICE, revan was a master.

Most likely the apprentice will become one of the greatest siths.

In the true ending, the secret apprentice is dead. He will never become one of the greatest Sith. Revan, however, will never die.

WraithPrince
08-08-2009, 10:33 PM
Never die? for all we know he could have got drunk and drove his ship into a astoroid while in the uknown regions.

Darth Eclipse
08-08-2009, 11:15 PM
Never die? for all we know he could have got drunk and drove his ship into a astoroid while in the uknown regions.

Revan is immortal!

GalenMarek
08-09-2009, 07:19 AM
He was sacrifieced himself, and his own super force repulse caused his death

WraithPrince
08-09-2009, 09:57 AM
Guess what immortality means you'll live forever doesn't mean your indestructible >_> He'd not be able to move his mouth that old anyway.

Rabish Bini
08-10-2009, 03:41 AM
Revan did always have like 2 other people with him when he was fighting groups of dark jedi the only sith he fought alone was malak im pretty sure.
Not in my game.

I only used other chars when they were necessary and the game requires them to be there.

Zwier Zak
08-10-2009, 07:03 AM
I don't get you people. The force powers in the game are ALL over the top not just SA. Besides how can one compare an ancient Sith lord to a kid? That's what I dislike about him. People see him do all the stuff no one could do in the movies and bam "he's stronger than Revan" , he's "stronger than Luke" and so on. In my opinion he is not stronger than any of them. He is just presented as such.

SW01
08-10-2009, 07:03 AM
Revan was clearly more powerful.





He had an invulnerability code. PS3 Starkiller did not. :lol:

GalenMarek
08-10-2009, 09:54 AM
Starkiller will kill Skywalker in the Ultimate Sith Edition, so he's more powerful:)

WraithPrince
08-10-2009, 10:53 AM
I don't get you people. The force powers in the game are ALL over the top not just SA. Besides how can one compare an ancient Sith lord to a kid? That's what I dislike about him. People see him do all the stuff no one could do in the movies and bam "he's stronger than Revan" , he's "stronger than Luke" and so on. In my opinion he is not stronger than any of them. He is just presented as such.

Even if HE was over the top every OTHER JEDI he fought was also over the top in the game you wouldn't see vader perform super pushes and have some red field around him in the movies you would see Palpatine flying and using lighting to throw stuff at SK (even i think that makes no sense) All that matters is he beat them.

And please don't say Revan would win because he was a master strategist did he trick the republic into putting him as supreme chancellor, make a army of clones in secret make them become the republics army trick a federation into going to war with the republic and even trick the jedi and kill all but like 10-20 of them?

All Revan did was win a war woopdie doo he forgot all that and yes he regained his memory about his past self too bad he had no army when he got those smarts back.

If Starkiller a cardboard box of a character was smart enough to outsmart a guy like palpatine in combat then you can't say revan can outsmart Starkiller.

kuraiken
08-11-2009, 09:26 AM
Even if HE was over the top every OTHER JEDI he fought was also over the top in the game you wouldn't see vader perform super pushes and have some red field around him in the movies you would see Palpatine flying and using lighting to throw stuff at SK (even i think that makes no sense) All that matters is he beat them.
Well, he's dead, isn't he?
Very skilled. Especially since Sith and Jedi 3000 years after Revan hardly had the knowledge and ability as before, since there have been quite a few statements by jedis that the knowledge of the force by both Sith and Jedi deteriorated over time.


And please don't say Revan would win because he was a master strategist did he trick the republic into putting him as supreme chancellor, make a army of clones in secret make them become the republics army trick a federation into going to war with the republic and even trick the jedi and kill all but like 10-20 of them?
No, he convinced countless Jedi to join him in his war cause even though the Jedi order gave strict orders to all jedi NOT to join.
And, even though he was just a jedi knight, he became leader of the entire war effort within the shortest time you can imagine. Practically overnight. Over the ENTIRE combined Jedi and Republic war forces.
Then, without the Republic noticing, under the pretense of defeating a few remaining Mandalorian groups, he successfully managed to find the Star Forge, an ancient automated shipyard, that accepted him as its first master in thousands of years.

And then, before anyone realized what was happening, he invaded republic space as the new proclaimed Sith Lord with untold powers and a endless fleet powered by the Star Forge, and within mere months, the Republic was driven into desperation as every effort seemed futile, and every battle was without any chance of success. Revan wiped the Republic fleets out of the Galaxy. And unlike most suspect, not in the Sith-typical thirst for power that every Sith seems to succumb to, but with the intention of overtaking the Republic so that he can strengthen their defenses so that the true Sith, who had initiated the Mandalorian war, would find a Republic united under his command with an endless fleet that would drive them back.
Actually, a very similar course of action as the one that Grand Admiral Thrawn choose, a few thousand years later, when he intended to ensure that the Yuuzhan Vong would not overtake the New Republic and known galactic space.

During the war, the jedi had been so much weakened by Revan, that his much less capable apprentice Darth Malak had no problems with almost wiping out all of the remaining jedi, including the complete destruction of the Jedi order on dantooine.

Oh, and did I mention that the number of troops and Jedi that joint Revan's cause, never ceased to increase during *both* wars?


All Revan did was win a war woopdie doo he forgot all that and yes he regained his memory about his past self too bad he had no army when he got those smarts back.

If Starkiller a cardboard box of a character was smart enough to outsmart a guy like palpatine in combat then you can't say revan can outsmart Starkiller.
Well, he didn't need the army anymore. He defeated his former apprentice, Darth Malak, under conditions I already outlined, and then, without even one person to support him, he went into unknown galatic space in the outer rims, where he presumably (most likely with help from the Exiled, a former student of his who followed him years later) managed to somehow delay the invasion of the true Sith by 300 years.
An entire Race of "Sith" lead by countless Sith Lords and an ancient Sith Emperor.
Now, *that's* what I call a feat.
What did Starkiller achieve?
Revan saved the galaxy, seemed to endanger the galaxy while preparing safety measures, and then saved them again while providing enough time to prepare for even worse foes.

Even in five lifetimes, Starkiller couldn't achieve half as much.
(And since Revan outsmarted an entire galaxy, the last part of that post his just ridiculous. :D)

WraithPrince
08-11-2009, 10:15 AM
Starkiller didn't save the galaxy? Didn't you pay attention to what the whole ********ty story was about? him making the rebellion that eventrually overthrew the Empire and bring back the republic. He may not have done it physically but he influenced others and brought them togethor.

About the knowledge thing it doesn't matter how much knowledge there was the sith would always pwn the jedi and some rising star with almost no knowledge always beats thm what can that say about how good these people are? O_o

Zwier Zak
08-11-2009, 06:36 PM
Starkiller will kill Skywalker in the Ultimate Sith Edition, so he's more powerful:)

Maybe... It's also posible Luke will kill Starkiller. One way or another Luke on Hoth was no Jedi. We all know that.

GalenMarek
08-12-2009, 05:43 AM
But some things changed, and only a jedi can fight against Starkiller

Zwier Zak
08-12-2009, 07:44 AM
Tell that to all those imperials.

Klw
08-13-2009, 02:50 PM
Let me just remind you that Luke and Marek both had to face the same situation with the Emperor: join me or die. Marek actually fought Sidious, who is considered to be the greatest Sith Lord of all time (even greater than Darth Revan) to a standstill. Luke, on the other hand, just took the lightning. You can argue that in doing so he was just trying to convert Vader back to the light side, but the fact remains that he never actually fought Darth Sidious, so we have no indication of whether or not he could duplicate Marek's greatest feat.

EDIT: And don't bring up the expanded universe stuff. I think it's absolutely ridiculous that they resurrected Palpatine in the first place and would like to completely ignore it. It just makes the end of the Return of the Jedi seem totally anti-climactic, as if Anakin Skywalker's return to the light side and fulfillment as the Chosen One was all for nothing - practically a joke.

Darth Eclipse
08-13-2009, 03:26 PM
Revan was clearly more powerful.





He had an invulnerability code. PS3 Starkiller did not. :lol:

Good point lol.

Agincourt
08-24-2009, 09:40 AM
I'd say Revan was more powerful. He was wiser, battle-minded, and ruled an Empire. Starkiller was clearly more powerful than Vader and could defeat Palpatine, but was killed before he achieved his full potential. I think that at his peak, the secret apprentice could have rivaled Revan.