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View Full Version : Health Care, Education, and Ecological Prisons - Why Norway thinks it can work


True_Avery
11-19-2007, 06:56 AM
Michael Moore goes to Norway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLQki-mQF4Q

Norway International rankings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway#International_rankings)

Human Development Index (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index)
Link (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_hum_dev_ind-economy-human-development-index)

UNICEF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNICEF)
Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/6359363.stm)

Norway Prison: Bastoy Prison (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastoy_Prison)
Link - Why Run Away From Prison? (http://rawstory.com/news/afp/Prison_for_murderers_where_escape_i_08072007.html)
Link (http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/536641/1324453)

I can post more, but you can decide off that and what else you choose to research.

-They are high ranked in a long line of surveys and one of the better places to live in the world.

-Free Health Care. You are treated freely and fairly as far as your health goes, but per usual taxes are higher because of this.

-It costs roughly 30% more to live in Norway than in the United States, and 25% more than most of Europe.

-Ranked 191 out of 195 in Infant Mortality Rate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate) / US is 163 / UK is 174.

-Norway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Norway) 99.9% Graduating in Education, 100% Literacy. USA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_United_States) 98% literacy, 85% Graduating in Education.

-First attempt at an ecological, prisoner friendly detention center in an attempt to make people who have done wrong feel loved instead of treated like monsters.

Why show you this?

Well, I have been scanning around lately and see a lot of "Socialism leads to communism!" thoughts every time a government attempts to try and make its people's lives better, for better or for worse. I see a lot of "people who do bad things are monsters that need to be locked away" talk going around. A lot of punish the sinner. A lot of all for me, and who the f*** cares about everybody else.

It is possible to have free Health Care. It is possible to have women high in a government. It is possible to treat those who have done wrong human. Norway is a good example of a nation that learned long ago that survival was not about the individual, but the group as a whole.

Now, there are cons, as many will point out, to all of this. For one, higher taxes and higher cost of living. This is pointed namely at America, the only first-world country without free, universal health care for a start. It costs 30% less to live here than most places of the world. But, at what price? We cut our taxes back for the people, and now we have no free Health Care for the poor, for children, or even for the rich. Our education system sucks due to lack of funding for schools and teachers. Cuba even has a lower Infant Mortality Rate than us.

Recently Bush vetoed a bill that would have given free health care to children, and many agreed with him. Now, I can agree and disagree with some things some of our higher ups have done... but refusing health care to children? To poor children? Or even to adults? I guess I'm looking at it the wrong way, but I find the fact that this country refuses to give -children- medical treatment absolutely terrible.

And our Prison system... We have more prisoners than any other country in the entire world. Over 7 million. Guess what! The People's Republic Of China is second, having over 4 times the population of the United States.. but only 1.5 million in prison. We see someone do something bad, from drugs to first degree murder, strip them of their title of human, and then send them off to prison for years of their life where they are raped, beaten, tortured, etc to the point that our prison system now breeds predators instead of locking them up. We have life sentences and the death sentence.

Norway does not believe in the death sentence or life sentence. The longest prison sentence in Norway is 21 years. Norway has the lowest murder rate in the world. In 1999, the US asked for a US citizen who has been arrested in Norway to be transfered to a US prison. Norway refused, saying, "US prisons do not meet the minimum humanitarian standards."

Is there a lesson in any of this at all? I think so. I think you get what you give. By complaining about taxes, continuously lowering them, all we have done to ourselves is say "I care about myself more than you." If you give school little money, you get an 85% graduation rate. If you hold onto old stereotypes, then you get ranked 66 in women in government. If you hold back free health care to the people, you become the last modern nation without health care with an Infant Mortality Rate higher than Cuba.

And what happens when you do not give people medical attention, do not educate them, treat them like dirt and call them monsters? You get ranked number one for people in prison with over 7 million people. You get ranked number 1 for murder with over 250,000+ people killed each year. You get ranked 1 for obesity rate, and death caused by food.

Child molesters, rapists, murderers, druggies, ect... If Norway is any indication, these people many times are not born... but bred into society by how we treat the average human. We flood our prisons with them and assume they can never be changed, yet statistically Norway has far less of this than the United States. So why are we drowning in these kind of people while Norway and many other parts of the world seem to lack it? I think it is how we treat them.

I see many people say "[Insert Criminal Here] are goddamn monsters who have done the unthinkable and deserve nothing less than to be removed from society". There is a part of me that would agree, but I have to disagree on a much larger scale about America's, and many other parts of the world's sense of justice. Many religions, many groups of people like to throw the word sinner and hell around quite a lot, but as far as I am concerned... you focus more on the sin than the sinner. The human has done something bad, but I think we should all take a leaf out of the true roots of religion and give people chances, forgive them and help them heal. And if we can do that, why not try to prevent more of this from happening by treating everybody like humans from the start?

This can be countered by a "It is just human nature" argument, and I used to believe that as well. But, recently after looking into other parts of the world I believe otherwise. I think human nature does have a factor in some of this, and some people are in fact simply born out of whack, but if you look outside America, outside wars and outside the constant struggle you can find places that really do try and make all people equal. Places that deserve the title "Land of the Free" and "Under God" far more than America does.

If you detect a bias to wards America, then I will admit that I do have one. I have long disliked living in this country and am planning on moving away to another country of my choice.

And do not assume that I am saying some parts of the world are perfect, but what I will say is that there are better places than America, Africa, etc. Norway has its faults, but as far as I am concerned it has far less faults than other places. Some places are better than others statistically. I've had people tell me when I mention moving to Canada that it is not moving to a greener lawn, but just another sh*t covered lawn that appears slightly better, just moving to another shade of gray. In some ways they are right, but I think I can find a better place to live than a country and refuses me my free right to live, a child's right to be treated, and a sinner's right to be redeemed.

I believe there is a lesson in treating people like people and caring about your fellow human beings more than how much money you have in your bank account collecting dust. But, I may be wrong. Probably am. Up to you to decide.

Jae Onasi
11-19-2007, 10:50 AM
Health care--all children under the poverty level are eligible for Medicaid (state-administered 'free' health care), so the idea that 'poor children can't get health care' is incorrect. Adults under the poverty level also are eligible for Medicaid.

There's no such thing as a free lunch--health care is not free, period. We either pay for it individually, or we pay for it through the state via taxes. Americans don't like limits, and state-run health care would introduce limits--limits in types of medications it would pay for (the cheapest possible), the types of treatments allowed for x condition, and so forth. While everyone would have access to health care in a universal program, it would alter some of the things that we health care providers could do for a given condition based on what the gov't would pay for--not that I'm against universal health care, but it's something to think about. Would the gov't be able to run health care and provide care as good as what's available to most people now? We may not have universal health care and people _do_ fall through the cracks, but we have the most advanced in the world in terms of available treatments and advanced surgeries/techniques.

Tommycat
11-20-2007, 12:38 AM
If our health care is so bad, (warning: Rhetorical questions may follow)Why on earth do people from Canada want to come here? I mean they have "free" health care up there. Why do citezens of Canada come down to Arizona to get medical treatments? Could it be that they don't have to wait to get that heart surgery? Possibly they don't want to be put on a list to wait for a CT scan. Maybe they would rather pay for higher quality health care.

Health care "FOR THE CHILDREN.... FOR GOODNESS SAKE THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN!!!!" is paid for if you cannot afford it. Nobody is denied health care. I had no insurance, no money, no job, and a fever of 107. Sure they sent me a bill. But I got the health care I needed. Those railing the US about not having free medical care are silly. I have family that work in doctor's offices. They don't even turn away illegal immigrants who are in need of medical care(seen it happen). In fact I have never seen anyone turned down for medical care.

If you want free health care, Join the military. They provide free medical care for you and your family. I'm sure the other veterans out there can vouch for the quality of that care.:D

As fr how we treat criminals differing from how Norway treats them: We are NOT Norway. We are possibly the most diverse country on the planet. We have many cultures that mix and match, and quite a few of those cultures don't get along with eachother. We also have a lot of laws that we shouldn't have. The poor in this country also have more than the poor in Norway. There are very few places where the "poor" have 2 TV's and 2 cars.

mimartin
11-20-2007, 01:08 AM
Why on earth do people from Canada want to come here?To that I will ask, if the American health care system is so great why are Americans traveling into Mexico and Canada to purchase prescription drugs?

I donít know what we can do about it, but two things tell me something needs to be done about health care cost.
In 2006, employer health insurance premiums increased by 7.7 percent Ė two times the rate of inflation. The annual premium for an employer health plan covering a family of four averaged nearly $11,500. The annual premium for single coverage averaged over $4,200 (3).Meaning it is get more and more difficult from employers to provide health insurance as a benefit to employees.
And Total spending was $2 TRILLION in 2005, or $6,700 per person (1). Total health care spending represented 16 percent of the gross domestic product (GDP).Meaning health care cost are becoming a cumbersome drag on our economy. U.S. health care spending is expected to increase at similar levels for the next decade reaching $4 TRILLION in 2015, or 20 percent of GDP (2). And expect to become even more of an drag on our economy.

So if you are a liberal, that wants to help the little children, or if you are a conservative, more worried about jobs and money, health care cost is a problem that needs a solution.

National Coalition on Health Care (http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml)

Tommycat
11-20-2007, 01:22 AM
To that I will ask, if the American health care system is so great why are Americans traveling into Mexico and Canada to purchase prescription drugs?

I donít know what we can do about it, but two things tell me something needs to be done about health care cost.
It's quite simple. WE in the US pay for the lost profits and research costs for those drugs. We're good like that. Question is when are the other countries going to start thanking us for it:D

Meaning it is get more and more difficult from employers to provide health insurance as a benefit to employees.
Yeah, this is true. IF only half of the story. The other half is the number of cases where people are receiving health care far and above that of the universal health care of other countries...

AndMeaning health care cost are becoming a cumbersome drag on our economy. And expect to become even more of an drag on our economy.
Not really, but I guess if you want to you can infer that. It just means that many employers will have to either cease that benefit, or raise the cost to employee(which reminds me, I gotta figure out my elections for next year).

So if you are a liberal, that wants to help the little children, or if you are a conservative, more worried about jobs and money, health care cost is a problem that needs a solution.
What if you are a libertarian that doesn't trust the government with your money? What if you are a conservative that would prefer to SAVE that money per year on health care, and earn interest. What if you are a liberal that doesn't want the health care budget being blown on defense spending. Ah we can spin this however we want.

mimartin
11-20-2007, 01:59 AM
It's quite simple. WE in the US pay for the lost profits and research costs for those drugs. We're good like that. Question is when are the other countries going to start thanking us for it:DThe real question is when are we going to stop the Pharmaceutical Company making us foot the bill alone? We hate welfare unless it is for big business.

Not really, but I guess if you want to you can infer that. It just means that many employers will have to either cease that benefit, or raise the cost to employee.Or employers could just outsource those jobs overseas were they donít have to worry about such cost. Although my point you quoted there had nothing to do with jobs and was about to do with what health care cost are doing to productivity. Something that many consider unsustainable. NATIONAL CENTER FOR POLICY ANALYSIS (http://www.ncpa.org/prs/rel/2006/20060628.html)

What if you are a libertarian that doesn't trust the government with your money? What if you are a conservative that would prefer to SAVE that money per year on health care, and earn interest. What if you are a liberal that doesn't want the health care budget being blown on defense spending. Ah we can spin this however we want. I wasnít spinning anything. I stated that I donít know the answer.

If you want me to spin it Iíd say: 1st to the liberal
Health care spending is 4.3 times the amount spent on national defense (4). To the libertarian Iíd say the government already is taking a great deal or our tax money for health care expenses. While government spending on health care is rising faster than the economy in all developed countries, spending in the U.S. is rising comparatively faster. The reason: other countries have direct control of their healthcare spending and can ration care, whereas the U.S. government allows Medicare and Medicaid participants to "buy" health care from providers, with no effective limit, and send Uncle Sam the bill.To the conservative Iíd say save your money so that you can afford to leave when we bankrupt this country by doing nothing. The system is broke and no matter if the plan comes from a liberal, conservative or a Martian something must be done. If the trends continue 20% of our productivity thrown away on heath care cost is unsustainable.

Tommycat
11-20-2007, 03:29 AM
The problem with it is that unfortunately, several countries refuse to pay prices over the base cost of the medicines. SOOO until we get the europeans to pay the cost of the medicines. WE're stuck with the bill.

Your second point: Um.. If they can do it to save $5 per person, they have already been doing that. If they can out source, they are already. No difference. However giving them another huge tax burden, you think is somehow going to encourage them to keep jobs in the US? I think not. The burden being unsustainable, will encourage other actions. I mean Social Security is(and has been for at least 20 years according to this report I have taped to my old Timex Sinclair) unsustainable. Should we just shut that off next year? There's going to be another ice age in 2001, oh and we're going to be out of oil in 2005(according to the newspaper articles I have :D I save these predictions to laugh at when the time comes and they are full of it, Something my dad taught me to do when I was panicing over the End of the world stuff). Things change, the economy changes. Sure, health care needs a change. I just disagree that Universal health care is that change. You're talking about taking the budget and opening the floodgates to people getting elective surgery for free.

Of course you could say that the government should discriminate on what surgeries are permitted. Personally I would rather not have the government have even more say so on how we spend our money on health care. If I give another 30% of my paycheck to the government, but I can't have that surgery I think I am entitled to, Tell me why am I paying for health care that I can't get the benefit from? This is why I have a problem with Welfare(and consequently this "universal health care"). A year ago I was without a job. It was only a temporary thing, but it happened. I needed money, and I applied for federal assistance. Guess what... I was denied because I made too much money. Here I've been paying into this system for darn near 30 years and I can't get the assistance that I paid for. Meanwhile the family living across the street from me is 3rd generation welfare recipients who have NEVER paid into the system, yet they are reaping all of the rewards(no, I'm not mad at them so much as the government denying my request when I need it). I fear that with universal health care it will continue that logic, and I'll need heart surgery, and get denied or put on a waiting list while 3rd generation welfare recipients get their runny noses taken care of. Until someone comes out and PROVES that that DEFINATELY WILL NEVER HAPPEN. I will never support it. That in fact is the reason my friend "Canadian Bob"(name changed to protect the innocent) said he moved here. his father was put on a waiting list for critical surgery behind a bunch of non threatening illnesses, Rather than let his father die, he took him here, got the bypass done, and now he's the biggest opponent of universal health care there is.

I also have a problem with the government choosing who can get our money. A good example of this: Abortion, Our government has shown quite a number of times to be a little iffy on abortion. This would likely NOT be allowed by the government. Look at the scuffle over education vouchers. Look at the religion arguments... I mean the whole seperation of church and state would mean that hospitals like St Judes(children's hospital) and other hospitals would be without the medical funding that others get.

To the libertarian Iíd say the government already is taking a great deal or our tax money for health care expenses.
So you tell him that you just want him to pay even MORE? What world does that make sense in?
To the conservative Iíd say save your money so that you can afford to leave when we bankrupt this country by doing nothing.
So you believe that through some omnicience you KNOW that it will bankrupt this country? So far I have not seen anything that Universal health care does that is unique to universal health care except taking money from one and redistributing it through the rest.

True_Avery
11-20-2007, 03:53 AM
Outside Health Care, any thoughts on Norway's jail system? Health Care is a hot topic, but I also posted this to get opinions on Norway's attempt at a new prison system. Not bashing on any Health Care debates, just wondering about the other topics.

Health Care is an odd topic to me. I'd like universal health care, but as has been said waiting lists are something to put into thought as well as more money. I do not mind paying more in taxes to help others, as I am more interested in the system it creates.

But, as has also been said, no system is perfect. All systems still put more effort into others, and in all system people still die. Universal Health Care or not, there are people who still do not get surgery and still do not get the organs they need. Thats life, not the systems fault in my opinion. Using Tommycat's example of heart surgery or dire surgical need, I have also seen proof in my life of people in America being ignored just as much as any other country. I still lean more on the side of Universal Health Care under the assumption that sh*t still happens, and I do not want to end up to my neck in debt or refused an operation in America due to my insurance screwing me over.

American System - Insurance agencies have the power over what you get and do not get, an operation can put you into debt for the rest of your life, those that cannot afford health care and do not have it are refused surgery on a daily basis and some hospitals actually pay doctors more money per year depending on how many of these patients they turn down. Lines build up for organs and surgeries, and some never get the treatment they need even with Health Care.

Universal Health Care - Chances are all people are treated equally in some hospitals, there are still reported chances of being denied. No debt, but taxes are raised. Lines build up, still limited organs, some people never get treated.

I can see the pros and cons of both, but the main con of universal health care is that some people never get treatment. I've heard many claims of this and believe it to and extent, but not to the extreme some do. I have seen my fair share of people being denied and never treated in the American system, so I do not believe that it is specifically located in only 1 or the 2 systems. There will always be limited organs. There will always be limited hospital rooms. There will always be limited surgery openings. There will always be limited doctors. That's life. I am still leaning more to a universal system, however.

I do see your point on unnecessary surgeries being made over important ones though, and that is indeed an important thing to look at regulating if it was instated. I would be very displeased to find someone was getting a surgery that could wait over my heart surgery, but that seems to fall more under very poor planning and regulation and not the free system itself, although I may be wrong.

I also have a problem with the government choosing who can get our money. A good example of this: Abortion, Our government has shown quite a number of times to be a little iffy on abortion. This would likely NOT be allowed by the government. Look at the scuffle over education vouchers. Look at the religion arguments... I mean the whole separation of church and state would mean that hospitals like St Judes(children's hospital) and other hospitals would be without the medical funding that others get.
That is an interesting point. If the system was completely government run, then I could see a scenario were a lot of laws and religious views got pushed upon the system. Interesting point about the hospitals, but I also do not think there should be any private religious groups like hospitals or schools at all in any part of the world, but that is my opinion. If universal health care was instated, I would want funding to all hospitals, regardless of religion or not, but as you said that could cause problems of its own.

But considering Abortion, the government is very close to outright banning it in the first place. It hasn't stopped it from banning a number or late term terminations, even if the woman is in danger of dying by the cancer in her womb. But that may be getting off topic. Good point none the less.

Tommycat
11-20-2007, 04:36 AM
Outside Health Care, any thoughts on Norway's jail system? Health Care is a hot topic, but I also posted this to get opinions on Norway's attempt at a new prison system. Not bashing on any Health Care debates, just wondering about the other topics.
Sorry, the health care system is the only one that really sparked for me, but I did post SOME on why a system that works in Norway is not necessarily good for the US. It really comes down to they are not the same as we are. Their culture isn't made up of so many cultures with a long tradition of hating eachother.


on healthcare(again)
American System - Insurance agencies have the power over what you get and do not get, an operation can put you into debt for the rest of your life, those that cannot afford health care and do not have it are refused surgery on a daily basis and some hospitals actually pay doctors more money per year depending on how many of these patients they turn down. Lines build up for organs and surgeries, and some never get the treatment they need even with Health Care.
Never seen it happen. My friend did medical billing, My mom's a nurse, and I personally did not have this happen to me. But then I haven't needed non-elective surgery either. In debt, sure, but debts can be reduced, or flat out erased. St Josephs here even does so much as to give a 75% discount if you agree to pay within 2 weeks(depending on the surgery).

Universal Health Care - Chances are all people are treated equally in some hospitals, there are still reported chances of being denied. No debt, but taxes are raised. Lines build up, still limited organs, some people never get treated.
Go to an emergency room in the most low income area of your state. Everyone is treated there.

I can see the pros and cons of both, but the main con of universal health care is that some people never get treatment. I've heard many claims of this and believe it to and extent, but not to the extreme some do. I have seen my fair share of people being denied and never treated in the American system, so I do not believe that it is specifically located in only 1 or the 2 systems. There will always be limited organs. There will always be limited hospital rooms. There will always be limited surgery openings. There will always be limited doctors. That's life. I am still leaning more to a universal system, however.
Again, neither I nor any of my family has seen this. Not even when my dad had a stroke without insurance and no job. Maybe we just know the hospitals to go to. (perhaps it's because we go to hospitals with "Saint" in the name haha)

I do see your point on unnecessary surgeries being made over important ones though, and that is indeed an important thing to look at regulating if it was instated. I would be very displeased to find someone was getting a surgery that could wait over my heart surgery, but that seems to fall more under very poor planning and regulation and not the free system itself, although I may be wrong.
Two words: Government Bureaucracy.
If anything can make a mess out of planning its the government. I mean honestly, they can hardly build city roads that meet the demands of commuters, yet somehow they are magically smart enough to work triage?


That is an interesting point. If the system was completely government run, then I could see a scenario were a lot of laws and religious views got pushed upon the system. Interesting point about the hospitals, but I also do not think there should be any private religious groups like hospitals or schools at all in any part of the world, but that is my opinion. If universal health care was instated, I would want funding to all hospitals, regardless of religion or not, but as you said that could cause problems of its own.

and that in and of itself is the danger of something like this being government run. If you can't get people to accept a hospital getting funds because of it's religious affiliation, then we lose several caring and compassionate hospitals.

But considering Abortion, the government is very close to outright banning it in the first place. It hasn't stopped it from banning a number or late term terminations, even if the woman is in danger of dying by the cancer in her womb. But that may be getting off topic. Good point none the less.
Meh, I'm pro choice, BUT, I think the government is overstepping its bounds in overriding the states' decision on abortion. I also think it overstepped its bounds in imposing the "partial birth" abortion ban. I honestly think that healthcare should fall under STATE jurisdiction. NOT Federal. They've gotten way too big to begin with.

True_Avery
11-20-2007, 04:50 AM
Again, neither I nor any of my family has seen this. Not even when my dad had a stroke without insurance and no job. Maybe we just know the hospitals to go to. (perhaps it's because we go to hospitals with "Saint" in the name haha)
Must be it. It sounds like you live in some amazing place, because I few members of my family have been denied care by their insurance companies and the hospital for poor insurance. Known a few family friends who have gone up to their eyes in medical bills as well.

Go to an emergency room in the most low income area of your state. Everyone is treated there.
And then drowned with medical bills.

To be fair, we aparently have both seen two different sides of the same thing and it is probably hard for either of us to make a solid grounding on what exactly is happening. You see a fair system that has treated you well, I see a system that has screwed people I know. Just because we have not seen it doesn't mean it isn't happening, if that logic makes any sense in this situation at all...

Seeing as you work for doctors, I don't think I can take this any further than I have as you know a lot more about this than me. All I know is that a lot of people get really screwed in this system and thats why I don't like it in the least, and this is added by personal experience. You aparently have never see this happen, so I am at a loss for what exactly to debate.

Tommycat
11-20-2007, 05:58 AM
Oh I have seen people turned away, the bad thing was it was Medicaid. Government healthcare.

Guy went to the hospital. The doctors told his family that he had to be placed in a nursing home. They immediately transferred that patient to a nursing home. Wonderful treatment right? Well according to the regulations, nothing can be paid for now because he didn't stay 3 days in the hospital. So now the bill for all of his tests AND the home that they didn't want to send him to are on the wife. That's the government for ya. Real good at red tape. Well the lady decides that she can't afford $90 a day plus the other expenses and their home. so she immediately heads out to the home to get her husband. She's now in court trying to get custody of her husband back.

Sorry, this is what I fear Universal health care will become... Not to mention that once you start it, a new government agency will be formed, Then an oversight comittee, then the Health Care Contractors Auditing Agency, then the paper conversion agency, then the triage agency, then .... You get the point. The government will end up employing so many agencies that we end up increasing healthcare costs with decreased health care benefits.

And I don't work in health care. I have several friends and family that do though. Heck my mom keeps trying to get me to go back to school for it, I think I'll stick to things that if they die I can get them going again whenever I feel like it...(cars and computers).

mur'phon
11-20-2007, 07:25 AM
-Free Health Care. You are treated freely and fairly as far as your health goes, but per usual taxes are higher because of this.

Not completly true, you need to pay a token fee for some treatment (around 20$).

Norway is a good example of a nation that learned long ago that survival was not about the individual, but the group as a whole.

We seem to be forgetting though, our second largest party is the anti-imigration party.

Norway refused, saying, "US prisons do not meet the minimum humanitarian standards."

Our humanitarian standards can sometimes be a pain in the backside though, currently we are unable to send a jihadist leader back to Iraq.

The longest prison sentence in Norway is 21 years.

Not true, a person can be sentenced to jail for as long as he is considered to be a threat to society, rarely used tho.

Stuff about the way prissoners and women are treated in Norway, and thinking that it is a good thing

I agree completely with you, though there is always room for improvement

Norway has its faults, but as far as I am concerned it has far less faults than other places.

Norway has a small population and tonns of oil, making it easy to drown faults in cash. Other countries are not so lucky.

and am planning on moving away to another country of my choice.
If you end up chosing Norway, send me a pm and I'll help you fit in

Tommycat
11-20-2007, 08:19 AM
Actually the best advice I can give to someone who loathes this country is try another country. It isn't to be mean, or "love it or leave it" but more, live elsewhere and get a new perspective on it. You may find that this other country is better suited to you than your own, or you may gain a new appreciation for The US(even with all of it's flaws). Live there for at least 2 years. That will give you enough time to get through the "I miss <insert random thing>" and give you pleanty of time to get accustomed to it. So far, I like the US the best, but then I haven't lived in EVERY country yet.... Australia was nice when I was there though, wish I had stayed longer though...

mimartin
11-20-2007, 10:40 AM
The problem with it is that unfortunately, several countries refuse to pay prices over the base cost of the medicines. SOOO until we get the europeans to pay the cost of the medicines. WE're stuck with the bill. Why are we stuck with it. Why donít we just refuse to pay it too? So you are saying we should support welfare for big business? I donít want to put words in you mouth as you are obviously putting words in my mouth by assuming Iím promoting a plan.


So you believe that through some omnicience you KNOW that it will bankrupt this country? You are assuming I am promoting a plan. I am saying something has to be done about health care cost. Nothing more, nothing less. Again I am not promoting a plan over saying it has to be one that controls cost. I know it is hard to believe a liberal that believes every life is important is promoting a real conservative idea, but I do have an accounting and finance degrees.

So far I have not seen anything that Universal health care does that is unique to universal health care except taking money from one and redistributing it through the rest.If you believe Universal care is the best solution you can promote it, I am not. All I am saying is the current system is broke and something has to be done to control health care cost for business, for individuals and for the government.

Australia was nice when I was there though, wish I had stayed longer though...Australia was nice when I was there too. I dislocated my shoulder in Sydney, went to the emergency room and saw a doctor in about a half an hour. He put it back in like I requested (without drugs) and it was free. I did donate some money to the hospital. Compare to the US were you are in the emergency room for hours, they make you take pain killers and then you need the pain killers when you get the bill, Australia was really nice.

For debate sake let me say that the data shows other countries health care cost also going up just not at the rate of Americaís health care cost. This is due to those countries having universal health care that allows them direct control over cost. Since you are so dead set against universal health care is that because Americans will not be able to run it as well as say Norway, Canada or Australia? Are you saying we could not learn from their mistakes and make a better system? We have stolen ideas from other countries in the past and made them our own. Usually making something better than the original idea ever was (not counting food in that guys). I think we could come up with a plan that is fair for everyone, instead of our current system of the rich getting richer over others misery.

American System - Insurance agencies have the power over what you get and do not get, an operation can put you into debt for the rest of your life, those that cannot afford health care and do not have it are refused surgery on a daily basis and some hospitals actually pay doctors more money per year depending on how many of these patients they turn down. Lines build up for organs and surgeries, and some never get the treatment they need even with Health Care.
Correction insurance companies have the power although they are regulated by that state's department of insurance. Insurance agencies are at the mercy of the insurance company and the contract of insurance. I should know as I am an insurance agent and own my agency. I quit selling medical insurance because I do not trust the medical insurance companies and I refuse to sell anything that is not fully disclosed and something I trust. The straw that broke my back was a rather large medical insurance company tripling the premium after the insured filed a claim for basel cell being removed from their nose. I call the insurance company asking why they went up so drastically and they stated it was because of an age increase. The insured got older, but that happened three month ealier and had a 20.00 price increase at the time. So despite the insured being with them for over 10 years and file only one claim for $1500.00 during that time they increase their rate from $163.00 per month to almost $500.00 per month. The problem with their explanation is I was the insured and I knew the facts as well as their rate structure so I left them. Fortunately for me I had other opinions and it was only basel cell so I could go somewhere else rather easily. If I would have had an heart attack or something else I could have been stuck paying that rate.

True_Avery
11-20-2007, 09:27 PM
Actually the best advice I can give to someone who loathes this country is try another country. It isn't to be mean, or "love it or leave it" but more, live elsewhere and get a new perspective on it. You may find that this other country is better suited to you than your own, or you may gain a new appreciation for The US(even with all of it's flaws). Live there for at least 2 years. That will give you enough time to get through the "I miss <insert random thing>" and give you pleanty of time to get accustomed to it. So far, I like the US the best, but then I haven't lived in EVERY country yet.... Australia was nice when I was there though, wish I had stayed longer though...
Thats probably what I'm going to do. Test water in other areas, compair and contrast, then my make decision from there. Who knows, I may eat all of my words some years from now.

This may be one of the better Health Care debates I've seen, so I'll sit back and see how this goes.

Edit: Thanks for clearing some of that up mur'phon.

Tommycat
11-20-2007, 10:57 PM
Why are we stuck with it. Why donít we just refuse to pay it too? So you are saying we should support welfare for big business? I donít want to put words in you mouth as you are obviously putting words in my mouth by assuming Iím promoting a plan.
Well our prices go up to pay for development of new drugs. Of course there are generic equivalents of most of the prescriptions we get as well. We aren't paying welfare for them(so much for not putting words in my mouth), but we are encouraging these companies to develop them here. I don't really like it, but with the strict price controls other countries have, it kinda makes it hard on those that don't have them.

You are assuming I am promoting a plan. I am saying something has to be done about health care cost. Nothing more, nothing less. Again I am not promoting a plan over saying it has to be one that controls cost. I know it is hard to believe a liberal that believes every life is important is promoting a real conservative idea, but I do have an accounting and finance degrees.

If you believe Universal care is the best solution you can promote it, I am not. All I am saying is the current system is broke and something has to be done to control health care cost for business, for individuals and for the government.

My mistake, I appologize for the misunderstanding. Yes I agree that something must be done, however Universal health care just isn't it. I personally liked the HSA's, but don't think that's it either.

Australia was nice when I was there too. I dislocated my shoulder in Sydney, went to the emergency room and saw a doctor in about a half an hour. He put it back in like I requested (without drugs) and it was free. I did donate some money to the hospital. Compare to the US were you are in the emergency room for hours, they make you take pain killers and then you need the pain killers when you get the bill, Australia was really nice.
I must be extremely lucky. I seem to find the hospitals that do this here in the US with only a small fee(though admittedly, I have great insurance now too)

For debate sake let me say that the data shows other countries health care cost also going up just not at the rate of Americaís health care cost. This is due to those countries having universal health care that allows them direct control over cost. Since you are so dead set against universal health care is that because Americans will not be able to run it as well as say Norway, Canada or Australia? Are you saying we could not learn from their mistakes and make a better system? We have stolen ideas from other countries in the past and made them our own. Usually making something better than the original idea ever was (not counting food in that guys). I think we could come up with a plan that is fair for everyone, instead of our current system of the rich getting richer over others misery.
Kinda. I don't trust that our government will be able to do an acceptable job of maintaining healthcare. See my post about the different agencies you could literally expect from universal health care. Welfare for the people itself is relatively inexpensive. It's all the welfare administration and paperwork and qualifications and this and that and people to decide that you don't qualify for assistance because you make $100 too much per month.

mimartin
11-20-2007, 11:19 PM
Kinda. I don't trust that our government will be able to do an acceptable job of maintaining healthcare. Yet you trust large insurance companies and Pharmaceutical Companies. Do you approve of the regulation the state departments of insurance place on insurance companies or the FDA, which regulates the drug companies? Do you really trust these companies to put the interest of their policyholders over that of their stockholder?

As I wrote earlier, I do not. I know the workings of the health insurance policy first hand and without government intervention, we would be in a world of hurt. These companies even deny required procedures. Therefore, I really do not see the big deal about universal health care denying elective surgery. As I said I am an insurance agent and I have seen government controlled insurance first hand, has anyone heard of FEMA? The flood insurance policy is the stupidest policy on earth. The more the handling company pays out in claim, the more money they make. What does it matter the taxpayer are picking up the tab. It actually cost the comany money to write it until there is a claim with all the requirements, but once they are paying a claim the get a percentage of the claim.

Tommycat
11-22-2007, 02:25 AM
Well it kinda is different. I trust the government's ability to restrict private enterprise. They do a bad job of administering those industries.

mimartin
11-22-2007, 02:34 AM
The real questions are do you trust Insurance Companies to put the interest of the policyholder over that of the stockholder? Do you trust the Pharmaceutical Company to put the welfare of the consumer over their stock price?

So do you trust a CEO of a company with your life over an elected official? In these day and times, I might actually say I trust the CEO over some of the elected officials we have today.

Tommycat
11-22-2007, 02:48 AM
So do you trust a CEO of a company with your life over an elected official? In these day and times, I might actually say I trust the CEO over some of the elected officials we have today.
DINGDINGDINGDING!!! we have a winner.

See, politicians can be bought by insurance/pharmaceutical companies and pretty well anyone with enough money. Insurance companies have to worry about the stakeholder's opinions and are more likely to be affected by negative press. Take a look at how the VA is being run RIGHT NOW. They've gotten very bad press. If it were an insurance company, the stakeholders would be dropping that stock in preference for a better run company. Am I wrong in this?

Imagine, Painkillers Inc not selling enough painkillers. They lobby the politicians for more painkillers to be used by the hospitals. Now everyone who goes in gets a painkiller. This is something I could actually see happening. Hospitals actually being required to give out specific amounts of prescribed drugs.

That on top of, if the insurance company can be shown to have been instrumental in the death of me, they face a hefty legal expense. If the government causes my death, they lose my vote.... :indif:

Corinthian
11-22-2007, 02:54 AM
Wow. I'm glad I read that. I really makes me want to stay very, very far away from Norway. Good to know that a guy can slaughter city blocks worth of people and get thrown in prison for 21 years for it. That makes me feel REAL good. And he'll be treated nicely, not like the piece of human trash he is. I'm sure Ted Kaczynski would love Norway.

Tommycat
11-22-2007, 03:14 AM
Wow. I'm glad I read that. I really makes me want to stay very, very far away from Norway. Good to know that a guy can slaughter city blocks worth of people and get thrown in prison for 21 years for it. That makes me feel REAL good. And he'll be treated nicely, not like the piece of human trash he is. I'm sure Ted Kaczynski would love Norway.
Well as I said before, it is a different country with a different mentality. Guess its because they don't have the serial killers like we have here.

John Galt
11-22-2007, 03:48 AM
Free universal health care is seldom universal and never free.

I'll elaborate when it isn't 3 in the morning.

Corinthian
11-22-2007, 05:21 AM
Right. Norway, because of it's socialist system, doesn't have any mass-murderers. Somehow, I doubt that.

Tommycat
11-22-2007, 05:54 AM
Right. Norway, because of it's socialist system, doesn't have any mass-murderers. Somehow, I doubt that.
No, because of its rather different culture, doesn't have the same violent propensity we have here in the US.

Not to mention they have smaller communities than we have here. People have a harder time going missing with nobody noticing... and a harder time hiding what they are doing.

Of course I did hear they had a high suicide rate... Not sure on that one.

mur'phon
11-22-2007, 06:04 AM
Wow. I'm glad I read that. I really makes me want to stay very, very far away from Norway. Good to know that a guy can slaughter city blocks worth of people and get thrown in prison for 21 years for it. That makes me feel REAL good. And he'll be treated nicely, not like the piece of human trash he is. I'm sure Ted Kaczynski would love Norway

Not correct. While 21 years is the maximum you can be sentenced to, you can be held for 4 years ekstra at a time if you are considered a threat to society. This can go on forever, and the decision is made by crime psykologists, other medical staff and a judge.
And you would be given a room with a bed and a tv, priveliges would be granted/removed acording to behavior. You would also offered education, though if you refuse, you would most likely have to work.
Sure, compared to american prissoners he would be treated like a king, different ways to look at a criminal I guess.

[QUOTE]I did hear they had a high suicide rate...[QUOTE]

True, it seems that in a society where "everyone" is sucsessful, being not so sucsessfull can be quite hard

True_Avery
11-22-2007, 08:03 AM
Wow. I'm glad I read that. I really makes me want to stay very, very far away from Norway. Good to know that a guy can slaughter city blocks worth of people and get thrown in prison for 21 years for it. That makes me feel REAL good. And he'll be treated nicely, not like the piece of human trash he is. I'm sure Ted Kaczynski would love Norway.
I fail to see how treating someone who is screwed up and probably stressed to all hell like a monster helps them or society in any way. America and other parts of the world just throw them away and lock the key, and when those people eventually get out, innocent or not, they have a high chance of coming out of our system worse than they were before hand. 6 million inmates more than any other country on the planet speaks for itself.

Maybe the lesson is to not treat people like monsters, but to treat people like people for a change. Taking someone who probably had a terrible childhood, stressed out life, emotional problems, etc and making them feel like humans, like they may actually be worth something instead of instantly calling them a sinner unable to function ever again who may as well be put to death.

It is extremely easy to call someone human trash and throw them away, opposed to taking the hard way and using time to try and heal someone and help them becoming a functioning member of society once again. We have such a revenge and "punish the sinner" attitude towards other people, but in my opinion that makes us just as bad as the sinners we so love to hate.

And if you had paid attention to the video and links, the inmates still express that they still feel like they are living in a prison, that they are still being watched. This is not a free lunch ticket. It is punishment, but instead of a filth filled corner where you are regularly beaten and raped by your fellow inmates, you are helped along to recovery.

I may not have any real idea how this works, but I had a familiar problem in Middle School. During all of Elementary School and Middle School I was an emotional mess. I would regularly snap and attack people making fun of me, unable to control my anger. I would get easily frustrated and give up, usually breaking down into tears, leading to terrible grades. My teachers liked me, but I could see that I was an unneeded distraction to the rest of the learning system.

By Middle School I could no longer control myself. I would simply break down mid class and run away, hiding in some remote corner of the school for hours at a time. The meetings eventually started between my teachers and my parents, and the school system recommended I transfer to a local mental facility/school to be taught there instead. My parents objected and asked for testing to see my state of mind. By the end of the 2 month testing, the school ran the numbers and found they could not chart my intelligence because it was too high for my age level, but they could also obviously see that I was emotionally unstable.

They still recommended the mental facility, but my parents objected and found a "Special education" class in my middle school. This class was not for the mentally retarded (pardon my use of the word for lack of better), but for the unstable. For people who could not function in normal classes due to emotional problems, social problems, etc. For the next 3 years I stayed in there with one of the best teachers I have ever had the honor to have. She helped me control myself, helped me feel normal, and over time I became more and more stable, and by the end I could function pretty normally from then all the way to now.

In that class I learned more about the facility, as some of the students eventually had to go there. You were watched, helped, but any emotional outburst could have you pinned to the wall or ground, locked in a closet till you calmed down, or even tied to your chair during the day to keep you from moving.

My point? The school saw me as a problem for them, so they wanted to send me away to some facility to easily fix the problem. When we fought back, I was able to get the help I needed from a set of teachers willing to put their time and effort into helping me. Sure, it may be a poor example, but taking the easy way and simply throwing someone away can hurt more than it helps.

Not correct. While 21 years is the maximum you can be sentenced to, you can be held for 4 years extra at a time if you are considered a threat to society. This can go on forever, and the decision is made by crime psykologists, other medical staff and a judge.
And you would be given a room with a bed and a tv, privileges would be granted/removed according to behavior. You would also offered education, though if you refuse, you would most likely have to work.
Sure, compared to American prisoners he would be treated like a king, different ways to look at a criminal I guess.
Thanks for clearing that up. I think that system works better than saying "life sentence" and never looking at the person again. Hiding a problem and ignoring it is a lot different than trying to solve it as a society and system in my opinion. A countries skeletons have the habit of popping out of the closet now and then to say hi.

Of course I did hear they had a high suicide rate... Not sure on that one.
True, but depends on your definition of suicide. Some outright kill themselves quickly, other drown themselves in drugs and/or alcohol to slowly die. Americans have a track record for the second, but there are indeed many parts of the world were suicide is becoming a large problem. China and Japan for a start.

Right. Norway, because of it's socialist system, doesn't have any mass-murderers. Somehow, I doubt that.
There are murderers everywhere. And countries punish them accordingly. But, remember, not everybody in prison is a mass murderer. Many of them are repeatedly caught drug abusers/sellers. Some of them did something stupid, like steal, and got caught doing it.

250,000+ people murdered per year in the United States by guns alone, meaning the United States has the largest death rate by homicide per year than any current country on the planet. Norway has the lowest of any country, meaning they have the lowest murder and crime rate. There have been points that America is a melting pot of race and belief, but that just shows are how ignorant we are towards others. Canada has roughly 100-250 murders per year, their lowest on record being 50.

So, does socialism make a country safer? Meh, problem not and it is probably based more on how we treat each other as a people. But, something is wrong with those numbers, and we can only go on for so long before our prison system finally overloads and we have no room for all these people we keep tossing away. Norway and Canada may not be 100% peaceful, but having the label of one of the lowest crime rates of any other country compared to the exact opposite, America, means they have to be doing something right. And if nothing can be applied to America to make if safer, then, perhaps, the idea of a country that is basically a cultural mixing pot was an absolutely terrible idea in the first place.

I could look at you right now and see a "murderer". People may not kill people directly, but some beliefs put people behind bars for the rest of their natural life, which is simply another way of outright killing someone. If you are going to do that, at least have the balls to put a gun to their head to free up room and lower the absolutely massive amount of tax dollars that go into our 7 million inmates.

And you may send them away for 10 years saying "That'll fix them up good", but in that 10 years they learn the trade, they are stuck in an incredibly violent atmosphere, some are beaten, raped, and even more outright killed by other inmates. That sounds like hell to me. And if I remember correctly from many Religions, ultimate punishment and hell are up to God. You throw them in there, most of the time you are sentencing them to death, or you directly are hurting the people that inmate will harm with his new found violent behavior when he leaves prison.

Not to say Prison does not make people think back and change, but if some of the people are capable of being changed by that hell on earth, then I think so many more can change if you actually treat them like human beings instead of a stain on your perfect society. Still, in the end, there would still be people completely incapable of functioning in society even if that were to be put into effect... but I doubt the number would be anywhere close to 7 million.

Not trying to be mean at all to anybody, just throwing out stuff.

Tommycat
11-22-2007, 08:56 AM
Well I keep forgetting to mention that our prisons, are not all dirty rat infested holes people see in movies. Many of our prisons are quite reasonable. Of course then there's Sherrif Joe's idea of "Tent City" where the offenders are placed in a tent in the Arizona heat, and made to wear pink underware. Rape and beatings are very uncommon in Tent City, and many of the inmates there are allowed to work their regular jobs. Then there are the work release programs that allow inmates elsewhere to still keep their jobs, but they return to jail every night. It is quite obvious that most people who debate about how we treat our prisoners generally haven't been to nor worked at a prison. I currently have a friend of my wife's serving life in prison. He knows what he did was wrong, and in fact turned himself in. He pled guilty, and says that prison life isn't nearly as bad as they make it out to be in movies and TV.

They have a code in there. Raping a child will get you repeatedly raped with various objects, and you are likely going to die. Thievery, probably nothing. Murder a child, and you'll be lucky to survive a week.

I know more, but mainly because I've been inside. Most of your time is spent in your cell. You read, go to bed, wake up, excercise, eat breakfast, excercise, go back to your cell, read, excercise, read, eat lunch, excercise, read, write letters, read, count the blocks in your cell wall, daydream of getting out, eat dinner, read, excercise, read, go to bed. That was how my whole sentence pretty much was. I didn't come out a hardened criminal. I am not a greater menace to society than when I went in. Such is the falacy of the people who believe they really know what happens inside the walls of prison.

Nice dodge there re the suicides. Killing yourself slowly is not the same thing because of the intent. Killing yourself intentionally with an OD is the same thing. It really doesn't matter, as I don't even know if what I heard about the suicide rate there being higher than average is even true. It may be completely off base, I haven't checked for myself.

mur'phon
11-22-2007, 10:25 AM
Right. Norway, because of it's socialist system, doesn't have any mass-murderers. Somehow, I doubt that.

It isn't necesary the system, though I think sharing the oil with the population has helped. Norway has the cash to make everyone well enough off, thereby making "everyone" middle class. So yes, I think the socialist system did help Norway, but it's a speciall case.

Of course there are a lot of factors that dosen't really have anything to do with socialism, but might have helped: like the low amount of imigrants (around 10%), the way criminals are treated, a high level of education, small cities (the largest has around 500 000), low access to guns and little drug abuse.

PoiuyWired
11-26-2007, 01:05 AM
mass murderer are special cases. I am sure that most people in a prison are not mass murderer. In fact, many of them are in it for much less dangerous reasons.

While I have no problem with locking it up and throwing the key away for some of the extremely vile and deadly individuals (or execution for that matter, even as I am usually opposed to it) I do think that most of the inmates have the ability to be reintegrated into the society given enough help.