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*Don*
12-27-2007, 07:55 PM
Ok...
For the past several years, hip hop/rap has been blamed for the violent behavior in teens and adolescents.
Is it justified, or have rappers just become scapegoats for politicians?

Pho3nix
12-27-2007, 08:55 PM
Scapegoats. Doesn't matter which genre of music we are speaking of.

Marilyn Manson was once blamed for giving inspiration and whatnot to the perpetrators of the Columbine school massacre, after it had happened some news reporter asked him what he would say to the kids if he could have spoken to them prior to the massacre. He said "Nothing, I would've listened to them". Which is exactly the right thing to say.

I really don't believe violent video games, movies or any genre of music has the ability to drive someone to do these things.

*Don*
12-27-2007, 09:18 PM
^^^
I agree.

There was this one incident, I remember, when the Los Angeles Police Department blamed a surge of gang activity on 50 Cent's new song.

Ironically, the song was "In Da Club", which had nothing to do with gangs.

The damn police would much rather lay the blame on musicians rather than admit that they can't do their jobs.

Corinthian
12-27-2007, 09:23 PM
It's not the police. It's the parents. I can't stand rap or hip-hop, it irritates me that they're called music, but the real issue lies with the parents, who failed to properly discipline their children.

Web Rider
12-27-2007, 10:07 PM
I don't believe rap, or any music that was once blamed for certain problems is entirely without blame. You can't deny that much of modern music advocates violence, sex, drug use, and a general "life fast and die young" lifestyle.

Is it to blame, somewhat, but so are parents not doing their job.

TK-8252
12-27-2007, 10:57 PM
I don't believe rap, or any music that was once blamed for certain problems is entirely without blame. You can't deny that much of modern music advocates violence, sex, drug use, and a general "life fast and die young" lifestyle.

And yet with all of this so-called "advocation" (which it is not, trust me, I listen to gangsta rap more than anything), violent crime rates in America have actually gone down by more than half between '94 and '01, according to the U.S. Department of Justice.

Tommycat
12-27-2007, 11:03 PM
Scapegoats:
If you look at people's choice in music that claim (c)rap is the cause of the violence. It is more about their personal opinion of (c)rap that drives them to want to blame it, yet many of these same people listened to a genre of music that was at the time also labeled as the bane of society. Jazz, Blues, Folk, even if you can believe it rock and heavy metal(sarchasm is dripping I know), were at one time labeled as negative influences on society. At one time even classical(as we call it now) was considered a bad influence. It is nothing new to blame the new musical styling for the ills of the populus.

Perhaps though it is actually a product of the violence in society rather than the cause of it.

Web Rider
12-27-2007, 11:14 PM
And yet with all of this so-called "advocation" (which it is not, trust me, I listen to gangsta rap more than anything), violent crime rates in America have actually gone down by more than half between '94 and '01, according to the U.S. Department of Justice.
Not necessarily in the music, but in the lifestyles of many of the stars.

And are those in terms of sheer numbers or relative to the population?

TK-8252
12-28-2007, 01:16 AM
And are those in terms of sheer numbers or relative to the population?

I imagine it's per capita, because that's the only accurate way to measure such things.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cvict_c.htm

MdKnightR
12-28-2007, 01:31 AM
Not necessarily in the music, but in the lifestyles of many of the stars.


I tend to agree here. It isn't so much the music (or lack thereof where <c>rap is concerned) as it is the portrayal of the accompanying lifestyle. Many stars don't care that they are creating a bad image that has a role model effect on youth. The "artists" that perpetrate the thug lifestyle contribute immensely to school and social issues of teens.

However, it ultimately boils down to parenting. Whether that is the parents paying attention to their children in the present or the past failures parents of the "artists" that perpetuate the thug lifestyle.

Rev7
12-28-2007, 02:54 AM
Not necessarily in the music, but in the lifestyles of many of the stars.
I also have to agree, although some of this 'rap-music' has some not very good things said in them...IMO of course. I happen to 'dislike' rap or hip-hop, and I don't think that it is worthy of being called music. Once again IMO.
Many of these 'stars' lifestyles are not very commendable. I have not ever looked up to a celebrity, or called a celebrity a role-model. Yes some of these celebrities are good people, but in this case, I think, majority wins.

Tommycat
12-28-2007, 03:10 AM
If you follow most musical entertainers' lifestyles, it looks real bad. Look at Hendrix, Rolling Stones, Johnny Cash, Brittney Spears(ugh it hurts so much to group them together) and tell me they are all great role models. Heck even Elvis wasn't that great of a role model. If you look at them individually, you can make the case that each genre is a bad influence.

Balderdash
12-28-2007, 06:20 AM
Scapegoats. Doesn't matter which genre of music we are speaking of.

Marilyn Manson was once blamed for giving inspiration and whatnot to the perpetrators of the Columbine school massacre, after it had happened some news reporter asked him what he would say to the kids if he could have spoken to them prior to the massacre. He said "Nothing, I would've listened to them". Which is exactly the right thing to say.

I really don't believe violent video games, movies or any genre of music has the ability to drive someone to do these things.Couldn't have said it better myself.

It's just a shame that so many mainstream rock and rap artists aren't nearly as articulate as Marilyn Manson is. Every time a rapper is on the O'Reilly Factor... or whatever... to try to defend the culture I love, it's always one of those corporate yes men... never KRS 1 or Chuck D.

Ray Jones
12-28-2007, 09:30 AM
Ok...
For the past several years, hip hop/rap has been blamed for the violent behavior in teens and adolescents.Of course. Because of it being totally different compared to the performed violence in games or seen violence in movies, the violent scenarios described in the texts of rap music do cause our youth to perform school massacres.

John Galt
12-28-2007, 10:29 AM
I tend to agree here. It isn't so much the music (or lack thereof where <c>rap is concerned) as it is the portrayal of the accompanying lifestyle. Many stars don't care that they are creating a bad image that has a role model effect on youth. The "artists" that perpetrate the thug lifestyle contribute immensely to school and social issues of teens.

However, it ultimately boils down to parenting. Whether that is the parents paying attention to their children in the present or the past failures parents of the "artists" that perpetuate the thug lifestyle.

QFE

*cranks up the Prog rock*

*Don*
12-28-2007, 10:32 AM
Every time a rapper is on the O'Reilly Factor... or whatever... to try to defend the culture I love, it's always one of those corporate yes men... never KRS 1 or Chuck D.

LOL
Speaking of the O'Reilly Factor, did any of you guys see Snoop Dogg's response to Bill O'Reilly?
Go to youtube and type in "Snoop Dogg says eff Bill O'Reilly".
It's quite ammusing.

TK-8252
12-28-2007, 02:49 PM
it's always one of those corporate yes men... never KRS 1 or Chuck D.

Cam'ron was on O'Reilly one time. It was... interesting.

Nedak
12-28-2007, 03:36 PM
Music doesn't make kids act violently, it's all crap.

Every few years some naive parent (most likely the stay-at-home mother) can't understand why their little angel is acting out. Dad's an alcoholic, comes home hits the mom. Kid realizes his parents are hypocritical b***** and then rebells. But of course it's the music doing that ;)

I'm not a big fan of hip-hop/rap but to wrap it all up. NO, music doesn't make kids act violently. Same thing with video game violence or nudity. If your kid plays a violent video game he isn't going to go on a mass murdering rampage; if your kid sees nudity he isn't going to go to school the next day and violate his classmates.

El Sitherino
12-28-2007, 03:58 PM
As I'm sure you all know, I loves me some Hip-Hop.

Music is a form of expression. So, let's think about this in the appropriate context. Hip-Hop was started as a way of expressing the artists opinion on cultural situation. Gangsta rap started picking up when gang-crime elevated. Originally as an expression of what's going on in society, an expression of dismay and the chaos.

What people are thinking of as hip-hop now is **** that the corporations created, ergo not hip-hop. You might as well tell me every company's response to The Beatles was an accurate representation of a genre, and music in general, if you're going to use the latest from Lil' Wayne as the epitome of hip-hop.

*Don*
12-28-2007, 06:18 PM
Music is a form of expression. So, let's think about this in the appropriate context. Hip-Hop was started as a way of expressing the artists opinion on cultural situation. Gangsta rap started picking up when gang-crime elevated. Originally as an expression of what's going on in society, an expression of dismay and the chaos.

What people are thinking of as hip-hop now is **** that the corporations created, ergo not hip-hop.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

People always misinterpreted the meaning of hip hop.
When NWA released "F*** the Police" people shouted and censored them instead of listening to their message on Police Brutality.

And what happened as a result?
A year later the LA riots broke out and innocent people were killed.
If people had stopped pointing fingers and actually listened as they were supposed to, the situation could have been averted.

As for the current hip hop being released today, I gotta express my disgust.
Half the songs aren't even lyrically good. That "Soulja Boy" song was utter bulls***. The guy rhymed "roll" with "ho" and "ohhh".

Nedak
12-28-2007, 06:46 PM
You took the words right out of my mouth.

As for the current hip hop being released today, I gotta express my disgust.
Half the songs aren't even lyrically good. That "Soulja Boy" song was utter bulls***. The guy rhymed "roll" with "ho" and "ohhh".

Soulja Boy should not be considered music. Techno is more creative then Soulja Boy. The people that buy into such garbage reinforce my point that a fast majority new generation of music listeners are musically retarded. Then again.. When haven't teenagers bought into that crap. Just look at Vanilla Ice and MC Hammer ten years ago.

Soulja Boy's carrer, like Vanilla Ice and MC Hammer's, will eventually die and their 15 minutes of fame will be up.

MdKnightR
12-29-2007, 02:11 AM
Everyone has strong opinions when it comes to music. In fact, I designed a series of novelties for people, like me, who can't stand rap. See...

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b218/MdKnightR/Music_candy.jpg

If anyone's interested in some stuff like this, check out: http://www.cafepress.com/artcrusade

*Don*
12-29-2007, 04:13 PM
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b218/MdKnightR/Music_candy.jpg

Lol
Yea, I saw a couple of guys wearin a shirt that said that just yesterday.

Oh and to further add to the controversy, check out this article:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/17/baggy.pants.ap/index.html
Some schools thinking about banning "baggy pants" since they "promote indispline". Although this may be true, I feel they are also tryin to indirectly blame music.
Thoughts/comments?

MdKnightR
12-30-2007, 10:47 PM
Shop owner Mack Murray said Trenton's proposed ordinance unfairly targets blacks.

"Are they going to go after construction workers and plumbers, because their pants sag, too?" Murray asked. "They're stereotyping us."

The American Civil Liberties Union agrees.

"In Atlanta, we see this as racial profiling," said Benetta Standly, statewide organizer for the American Civil Liberties Union of Georgia. "It's going to target African-American male youths. There's a fear with people associating the way you dress with crimes being committed."


This is preposterous! Racial profiling, indeed! :disaprove I really get sick and tired of people playing the race card when it comes to something like this. The proposed laws have nothing to do with race and everything to do with curtailing indecent exposure. Its not a matter of the authorities participating in racial stereotyping, but rather a case minorities perpetuating a stereotype so, once again, everything can be blamed on the "white man." Bill Cosby has worlds to say about such things here. (http://www.eightcitiesmap.com/transcript_bc.htm)

TK-8252
12-31-2007, 02:45 AM
The proposed laws have nothing to do with race and everything to do with curtailing indecent exposure.

LOL, you really honestly believe that? You think that having your underwear showing in public is indecent exposure? Indecent exposure means you have your dick showing, or a girl has her breast exposed.

A 300-pound girl can walk down the street in a skimpy bikini, but if a guy has his pants sagging, and you can see his *gasp* boxers, that should be a CRIME?

LOL!

How about walking around in just my swim trunks? You know that that's legal, right? Or hell, I can walk around in public in just my boxers and it's not a crime. It's not indecent exposure.

So why would it be indecent exposure to wear pants, just not entirely covering your boxers? But if I'm not wearing pants at all, just underwear, that's legal? WTF?

Fact is is that old people, and younger people who don't "get it" so to speak, don't like or understand the "sagging" fashion. So they want to ban it so they don't have to learn to tolerate something they don't like or understand.

This kind of legislation is completely based in racism, just as the outrage against the "zoot suits" were. Why is it that there isn't so much outrage over girls with their thongs showing? Maybe because it isn't associated with black youths.

Bill Cosby has worlds to say about such things here. (http://www.eightcitiesmap.com/transcript_bc.htm)

Why does Bill Cosby have any credibility on this? Because he's black? Why not quote a rich old white man who grew up poor?

Sounds like racial profiling. ;)

El Sitherino
12-31-2007, 02:49 AM
Because he did that clever diddy about the pudding with the chocolate and the pyaoooow-eee.

Rev7
12-31-2007, 03:02 AM
The proposed laws have nothing to do with race and everything to do with curtailing indecent exposure.
I know that in some schools that I have gone to you cannot wear baggy clothing, have your underwear showing, and most of all you have to have your shirt tucked in ALL the time! Mainly because baggy clothing can possibly be used to hide weapons. The schools that I am talking about happen to be located in Central Coast area of California. The population is mostly Hispanic. I moved from California to Washington State a little while back, and at the school that I am currently attending, you CAN have your shirt untucked, have more freedom with what you want to wear ( you can wear your clothes a little baggier) and the population happens to be mostly White. I have to tell you this most kids wore baggier clothing and got 'caught', so to say, and they were Hispanic, and the area that I currently dwell, people don't really wear baggy clothing. I think that it is more of the culture, so to say.

**NOTE** This is not made to be interpreted as a racial statement**END NOTE.

*Don*
12-31-2007, 04:46 AM
The proposed laws have nothing to do with race and everything to do with curtailing indecent exposure.

Nah.

I live in Compton, California which includes a rich, upscale, neighborhood of Seaside Heights as well as the notorious ghettos.

I notice that certain laws, such as the curfews as well as the school dress code, seems only enforced in the lower class areas.
I have yet to see the kids from Seaside Heights get arrested for being out late or suspended for wearing baggy pants.

I admit, that Compton is only a small part of the world, but I'm sure that this happens all over.

Corinthian
12-31-2007, 08:24 AM
I take it you spend most of your days hanging out at the police station, asking which neighborhood so and so is from?

El Sitherino
12-31-2007, 04:26 PM
I take it you spend most of your days hanging out at the police station, asking which neighborhood so and so is from?
It's not that hard to tell who gets arrested more. :\

lukeiamyourdad
12-31-2007, 05:26 PM
If you follow most musical entertainers' lifestyles, it looks real bad. Look at Hendrix, Rolling Stones, Johnny Cash, Brittney Spears(ugh it hurts so much to group them together) and tell me they are all great role models. Heck even Elvis wasn't that great of a role model. If you look at them individually, you can make the case that each genre is a bad influence.


QFE

I'm sick and tired of hearing the bull**** about how artists in other genres somehow behave better.

Remember the metal scene of the 80's? Sex, LOTS of drugs and dying quickly.

Grunge? Cobain liked heroin and he's a damn great artist. How many other ODed? Oh yeah, A LOT!

Maybe punk legend Sid Vicious was a nice role model too. Certainly was not a drug addict.

Hendrix, ODed at 27.

Joplin, ODed at 27.

Morrisson, ODed at 27.

Hell, even the Beatles took drugs.

Certainly great role models eh? Rock is full of great people who are so clean and pure...

John Galt
12-31-2007, 07:30 PM
of course, all this talk of bad role models is based on the assumption that drugs are, indeed, bad in and of themselves.

*Don*
12-31-2007, 09:30 PM
I take it you spend most of your days hanging out at the police station, asking which neighborhood so and so is from?

Nah. Truth be told, one can easily figure it out from school. Believe me, word of mouth travels faster than anything.

MdKnightR
01-01-2008, 12:43 AM
Just for the record, and for those of you who haven't gotten to know me, I used to be a teacher. The high school dress code required shirts be tucked in and belts worn at the waist for both boys AND girls. Girls could not "show their thong" without consequences either. Dress code violations also happened to be the number one discipline referral in the school. And, guess what? I nailed just as many white kids as black for the offense, so don't tell me that it is racially motivated. Personally, I would love to see uniforms in every public school, but that is a topic that deserves its own thread.

It is about indecent exposure. Just because a fat lady wears a mini-bikini doesn't make it right. And if you think that walking down the street in your boxers won't get you a citation, I challenge you to try it here.

It is also about parenting and teaching kids what is right and wrong. There are many reasons I cite Bill Cosby, and it is not just because he is black. He is a highly successful person who also holds degrees in Education. He is a fellow teacher. His observations are astute and much of what he spoke about at that event is true. People need to take responsibility for their actions and the actions of their children and quit placing blame on others.

lukeiamyourdad
01-03-2008, 02:06 AM
of course, all this talk of bad role models is based on the assumption that drugs are, indeed, bad in and of themselves.


Someone taking so much drugs he dies from it is a good role model?

Every accusation about rap being harmful bases itself on those characters being bad role models for kids. Rock musicians aren't much better.

The sad thing is how many rock fans, not the musicians (hey, Anthrax and Public Enemy and Run DMC and Aerosmith), hate rap out of jealousy (hip-hop was the "in" thing for much of the early 2000's or oout of...whatever the reason, it's not justified. They accuse it not only of not being music (heh, remember when rock was "just noise"?) but of being harmful because of the thug lifestyle and such. Yet, when you look at rockers and their live fast die hard style, it isn't much more glorious.

There's plenty of rappers who are extremely articulate and intelligent. There's plenty of rockstars who are the same. There's also plenty of idiots on both sides. Jimmy Hendrix isn't in any way a better role model then 50 cent.

Oh and by the way, for you people who never stepped in a neighborhood with a black majority, you don't need rap to get caught in the street violence. You were born in it to begin with.

Tommycat
01-03-2008, 03:14 AM
Meh I am a musician. Played in a band for 10 years. I don't like most rap because a lot of it isn't very creative. That isn't to say it all isn't(hey I've heard a few good songs here and there), but then I am very open to listening to all kinds of music, even styles I hate. And honestly Aerosmith and Anthrax are the exception, not the rule. To me calling it rap with a C fits the majority of it. Of course I also feel that a majority of signed bands are just junk as well. I always recommend people go out and either make their own music, or find a local band that you enjoy.

As for Jimmy being a better role model than 50 Cent, Jimmy at least preached peace and love and getting along. Sure his lifestyle is not that great, but meh.

MdKnightR
01-04-2008, 02:09 AM
Meh I am a musician. Played in a band for 10 years. I don't like most rap because a lot of it isn't very creative. That isn't to say it all isn't(hey I've heard a few good songs here and there), but then I am very open to listening to all kinds of music, even styles I hate. And honestly Aerosmith and Anthrax are the exception, not the rule. To me calling it rap with a C fits the majority of it. Of course I also feel that a majority of signed bands are just junk as well. I always recommend people go out and either make their own music, or find a local band that you enjoy.

As for Jimmy being a better role model than 50 Cent, Jimmy at least preached peace and love and getting along. Sure his lifestyle is not that great, but meh.


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