PDA

View Full Version : Whats happening to sex in the 21st Century?


jonathan7
12-29-2007, 02:25 PM
Hey all;

This thread is inspired by one of my favourite columists; however after discussing it with Jae, I think the article itself is probably unsuitable for a PG-13 Forum; for those of you who know me, feel free to message me and I can link you to a very interesting article which makes some very interesting points.

Why are many of our young people especially girls enganging in shall we say group activities and then being proud to have done so? What to people think of such behaviour? Personally I feel quite sorry for the people involved; I have always been of the opinion that the more 'relationships' a person has the more damaged they become as an individual. What do you think about sex? Do you think it is something special that should be shared just between 2 people in say a commited relationship? Or do you think its acceptable for 'group' activities and for people to just do what they want?

Edit:

Here's the condensed version of the article:
Girl goes to party where there are a lot of well-known sports figures from one particular team. Girl gets very inebriated. Girl then ends up in a room with 6 or 7 guys, who proceed to take turns with her. She apparently left the room hobbling, drunk, and pleased to have done it with that many very famous sports stars at one time. The author of the story was making the point that we might not need prostitutes any more if we have so many women willing to do it for free.

Does it make any difference that the girl in the article that J7's talking about was drunk _before_ she did the Wild Thang?

I'm not surprised to see that everyone who's replied here in the vein of "Oh, yeah, sex! Glad the girls don't see anything wrong with doing it anytime, anywhere, with anyone anymore! Yay!" are all male....

Finally please remember people that it is a PG-13 forum, so lets try and keep things as clean as we can; and think if I were a parent would I want my child to be reading this? Hope your all well. GB J7

mur'phon
12-29-2007, 03:10 PM
What to people think of such behaviour?

It's their life, if they want to do it I have no problems with it. If however they are forced/pressured (this includes being taken advantage of when drunk) into doing it, it's of course a completely different matter.

Do you think it is something special that should be shared just between 2 people in say a commited relationship?

No, sex feels great, make bonds betwen people, and can produce children. As long as it's not for making children, I see no reason why you need to be in a commited relationship to enjoy it.

Or do you think its acceptable for 'group' activities and for people to just do what they want?

I do, as long as condoms are used, and everyone who know they carry STD's have made it known

I have always been of the opinion that the more 'relationships' a person has the more damaged they become as an individual

Great, that means I'm an undamaged individual :D
Seriously though, I don't think it's the case. Most of the "partyholics" I know are confident, smart, and very social, of course I don't know what goes on inside their heads, but if they are damaged they are hiding it extremely well. Of course, this might be because it's fairly normal to have slept with several people where I live.

Edit: you should delete some of your messages jonathan, your inbox is full

Web Rider
12-29-2007, 03:14 PM
mur'phon pretty much summed it up for me.

I think the only reason we're getting concerned is because it's girls. Boys and men have done that sort of thing for years. It's nothing new for me. But as women grow more mentally equal(that is, they feel they can do the same things men can without society stopping them), we see girls doing it too.

To me, it's all about living your life how you want. If you wanna sleep around, try not to reproduce willy-nilly and spread diseases and that's as far as I care.

*Don*
12-29-2007, 03:20 PM
^^^
Yea.
That's pretty much how I feel as well.
As we move into the future, the previous social inhibitions that women used to have are done away with.

There are alot more parents advocating "safe sex" than there are advocating "abstinence". I don't have statistics to proove it but based on my fellow peers, I seem to get that idea.

jonathan7
12-29-2007, 03:35 PM
Great, that means I'm an undamaged individual :D
Seriously though, I don't think it's the case. Most of the "partyholics" I know are confident, smart, and very social, of course I don't know what goes on inside their heads, but if they are damaged they are hiding it extremely well. Of course, this might be because it's fairly normal to have slept with several people where I live.

Edit: you should delete some of your messages jonathan, your inbox is full

I'll send you the article when I finish replying :)

Most of my friends are the 'partyholics' my boys tend only to think with a certain part of their anatomy, and in truth have about as much in the way of emotions as the terminator. However I must confirm, that while my girls may appear to be very, confident, smart and social; they are plagued by self doubt and often hate what they have done in the morning after a big night out. This is never really seen by the outside world, but given I am the closest confident to several of them; I see that side. However I obviously cannot comment on your individual friends as I don't know them.

Pho3nix
12-29-2007, 04:10 PM
I think it all comes down to change.

Everything constantly evolves in our society, so I'm not surprised to see women become more 'mentally equal' as Web Rider put it.

mur'phon
12-29-2007, 05:01 PM
Most of my friends are the 'partyholics' my boys tend only to think with a certain part of their anatomy, and in truth have about as much in the way of emotions as the terminator.

I'm a bit confused, when you say my boys/girls are you talking about your daughters/sons? As for young boys having a similar mindsett to a homing misile, I agre for the most part, hence why most of my friends are girls.


However I must confirm, that while my girls may appear to be very, confident, smart and social; they are plagued by self doubt and often hate what they have done in the morning after a big night out.

My friends don't really regret what they did do in most cases, it's what they didn't that bothers them. Of course, ocasionally they do things they hate themselves for, but they tend to get over it far quicker.
Again, I think it might have something to do with culural differences.

This is never really seen by the outside world, but given I am the closest confident to several of them; I see that side. However I obviously cannot comment on your individual friends as I don't know them.

Being the emotional trash can for several girls, I'm fairly certain they aren't keeping anything from me, though you never know what people aren't telling.

jonathan7
12-29-2007, 05:18 PM
I'm a bit confused, when you say my boys/girls are you talking about your daughters/sons? As for young boys having a similar mindsett to a homing misile, I agre for the most part, hence why most of my friends are girls.

lol, no its just slang for my friends... so my boys = my best m8s who are lads; and the same for girls; its just the way we woulod refer to each other. Sorry for not making that clear.

adamqd
12-29-2007, 05:26 PM
If you cant Enjoy each others bodies (in a Safe, Legal and appropriate way), what can you do?
To tell you the truth I'd say people are having less one night stands, or non marital sex or whatever, than say 10 years ago, (Or maybe I'm getting Uglier? :D) which was still less than the mid 80's extreme indulgence in sensuality.

Ctrl Alt Del
12-29-2007, 06:01 PM
The whole point of this discussion is what modern times have done to female behavior in relation to sex. If that shows that women have advanced or moved backwards depends on each one views on sex.
If you cant Enjoy each others bodies (in a Safe, Legal and appropriate way), what can you do?
QFT.

I think the only reason we're getting concerned is because it's girls.
True.

Jae Onasi
12-29-2007, 07:27 PM
Here's the condensed version of the article:
Girl goes to party where there are a lot of well-known sports figures from one particular team. Girl gets very inebriated. Girl then ends up in a room with 6 or 7 guys, who proceed to take turns with her. She apparently left the room hobbling, drunk, and pleased to have done it with that many very famous sports stars at one time. The author of the story was making the point that we might not need prostitutes any more if we have so many women willing to do it for free.

Does it make any difference that the girl in the article that J7's talking about was drunk _before_ she did the Wild Thang?

I'm not surprised to see that everyone who's replied here in the vein of "Oh, yeah, sex! Glad the girls don't see anything wrong with doing it anytime, anywhere, with anyone anymore! Yay!" are all male....

mur'phon
12-29-2007, 07:58 PM
Does it make any difference that the girl in the article that J7's talking about was drunk _before_ she did the Wild Thang?

It does, I have edited my first post since reading the article.

I'm not surprised to see that everyone who's replied here in the vein of "Oh, yeah, sex! Glad the girls don't see anything wrong with doing it anytime, anywhere, with anyone anymore! Yay!" are all male....


I would have put it more like "Glad the people don't see anything wrong with doing it anytime anywhere with anyone anymore! Yay!" But meh.
If it would make much of a diference I might be able to get one of my girl friends to post once the holliday is over.

Ctrl Alt Del
12-29-2007, 09:13 PM
Does it make any difference that the girl in the article that J7's talking about was drunk _before_ she did the Wild Thang?
I'm not sure. The report don't specify wether she was drunk when she was invited to the party (Probably she wasn't). So she went there by her own will. Even if it's a twisted, manipulated will.


I'm not surprised to see that everyone who's replied here in the vein of "Oh, yeah, sex! Glad the girls don't see anything wrong with doing it anytime, anywhere, with anyone anymore! Yay!" are all male....

Sorry, I really posted that, but I didn't knew about the content of the report J7 was talking about, I wasn't thinking of this case on particular.

My opinion about this? Twisted valors and TV can corrupt you. What else can it be?

Achilles
12-29-2007, 10:19 PM
Why are many of our young people especially girls enganging in shall we say group activities and then being proud to have done so?Ugh...trying to provide sources for these arguments is going to be difficult, if not impossible, within the PG-13 environment. :(

The case, as I have heard it presented, is that the pervasiveness of pornography has "raised the bar" so to speak regarding sexual norms. Many girls feel that they have to maintain a certain body image, groom themselves a certain way, appear to be willing if not eager to participate in certain activities, etc just to remain "competitive".

What to people think of such behaviour? I think that consenting adults should be able to do whatever they want, provided that it does not impact anyone else. As with anything else, I think it's wise to question your motivations behind doing something before you do it.

Personally I feel quite sorry for the people involved; I have always been of the opinion that the more 'relationships' a person has the more damaged they become as an individual.Why is that?

What do you think about sex?I think a lot of things about sex :) What specific context did you have in mind, my friend?

Do you think it is something special that should be shared just between 2 people in say a commited relationship? Or do you think its acceptable for 'group' activities and for people to just do what they want? I don't think it has to be either of these or any of the specific points in between them on the spectrum. Sex is something that people do. It has an evolutionary benefit in that it allows us to pass on our genes. As such we are hard wired to want to participate in it. Anything above and beyond that is going to be 99% a discourse on social norms and value judgments. In other words, I don't think that sex itself has any inherent predisposition in regards to anything. It's like asking if basketball is meant to be played on Thursdays.

No doubt in my mind that we have developed evolutionarily to have tendencies toward serial short-term monogamous relationships, but that's going to be a conversation on biology, not on the nature of sex itself.

Thanks for reading.

jonathan7
12-29-2007, 10:48 PM
Ugh...trying to provide sources for these arguments is going to be difficult, if not impossible, within the PG-13 environment. :(

Indeed, it is a very interesting discussion however the nature of the topic does mean that I think our discussion will be 'shackled' as it were.

The case, as I have heard it presented, is that the pervasiveness of pornography has "raised the bar" so to speak regarding sexual norms. Many girls feel that they have to maintain a certain body image, groom themselves a certain way, appear to be willing if not eager to participate in certain activities, etc just to remain "competitive".

Indeed, I had heard similar reports, although my reading around this subject is not particuarly large. What are your opinions on pornography? There does seem to be some interesting evidence with regards its effects coming to light. My big concern for say the girl in the article is I think she is damaging herself, and is perhaps already damaged. It is not for me to force my values on her as such; its more a concern for her later in life, and if it is a result of self esteem issues.

I think that consenting adults should be able to do whatever they want, provided that it does not impact anyone else. As with anything else, I think it's wise to question your motivations behind doing something before you do it.

Agreed, often I think one of the big problems with the world is people tend not to question their motivations, and tend to just respond impusivly.

Why is that?

Personal observation; I tend to be a close confident to alot of friends, and people seek me out for relationship advice. There isn't any empirical data that I could show you as such; so you could argue 'the sample' of my friends contains a bais and isn't generalisable to the wider population. As to why; I think people can end up feeling lonely and use; indeed one of my boys had said to me that the lonliest he has ever felt has been on one night stands; he felt far lonelier then than when sat at home on his own. The question I suppose comes back to why are people performing a certain behaviour? Most people tend to only act in a similar vain to their friends... If I ask most of my friends why they get drunk on a night out they couldnt tell you why they did... But everyone else doing it tends to have the herd effect, perhaps sexual behaviour is similar?

I think a lot of things about sex :) What specific context did you have in mind, my friend?

Hehe; well in an ideal world; what do you think is the best place for sex and between whom? Along those lines was my question; do you think the above behaviour is wise? And I suppose if you don't mind divulging as I would be very interested to know; as you have children what have you/will you teach them about sex?

I don't think it has to be either of these or any of the specific points in between them on the spectrum. Sex is something that people do. It has an evolutionary benefit in that it allows us to pass on our genes. As such we are hard wired to want to participate in it. Anything above and beyond that is going to be 99% a discourse on social norms and value judgments. In other words, I don't think that sex itself has any inherent predisposition in regards to anything. It's like asking if basketball is meant to be played on Thursdays.

I suppose in some regards the discussion will move onto being a discourse of social norms and value judgements. I would of course assert that something being a social norm does not make it right; for example I would assert social norms and the treatment of woman in Saudi Arabia is wrong. Sexual ethics of course is slightly different and depends on perhaps on your 'meaning of life view' as to your exact thoughts about it. While I think your analogy of the basketball is a helpful one, do you think there are sexual behaviours which can be harming to an individual?

No doubt in my mind that we have developed evolutionarily to have tendencies toward serial short-term monogamous relationships, but that's going to be a conversation on biology, not on the nature of sex itself.

Intruiging; the discussion of biology is in some regards abit interlinked perhaps? What is the evidence for our tendancies toward serial short-term monogamous relationships?

Thanks for reading.

Pleasure as always; your posts are always interesting to read :)

mimartin
12-29-2007, 10:57 PM
Why are many of our young people especially girls enganging in shall we say group activities and then being proud to have done so?I don’t know. First off, I am not young and have never engaged in sexual activates outside of a one on one relationship. It has never even came up in the conversation with any of the women I have dated. I guess my preference is one on one.
What to people think of such behaviour? To each his/her own. If that is their preference, then so be it. They may consider me weird because I prefer only to engage in sexual activities with someone that I consider that I am in “love” with.
Personally I feel quite sorry for the people involved; I have always been of the opinion that the more 'relationships' a person has the more damaged they become as an individual.Why? If they are adults practicing safe sex, not everyone thinks alike, some people may consider such a relationship the norm. Where it may be damaging to me, someone else may be quite comfortable with such an arrangement.
What do you think about sex? I believe it is away to share intimacy with someone you care for. It is a way share pleasure with someone you love. In an intimate relationship, some times words escape your true feelings; making love is another way to express how you feel.
Do you think it is something special that should be shared just between 2 people in say a commited relationship? Even though I choice sex for showing intimacy that is not the only reason for sex. If someone is doing it strictly for pleasure or they love more than one person I fail to see the problem with the more than more partner.
Or do you think its acceptable for 'group' activities and for people to just do what they want? That is not my call. If the person in question finds it appropriate and satisfying then I guess it is. Just because I would not do it does not make it wrong or unacceptable.
Does it make any difference that the girl in the article that J7's talking about was drunk _before_ she did the Wild Thang? My personal code would never allow me to take advantage of someone that was mentally impaired. Someone that is drunk or emotionally unstable should not be taken advantage of in such away. Kept me from doing the “Wild Thang” with a few woman, but at least I can live with myself still.
I'm not surprised to see that everyone who's replied here in the vein of "Oh, yeah, sex! Glad the girls don't see anything wrong with doing it anytime, anywhere, with anyone anymore! Yay!" are all male.... I don’t like the double standard. This is also the reason I have refuse to have children in my life, because of the fear of having a little girl and the fear I would one day have to kill someone else’s teenage boy. Therefore, even though I hate the double standard, I would not want my daughter or cousin doing such a thing. The real question to all that say “Yay!” Would you marry a woman that behaves in such a way? Would the person that you marry want you should you behave in such a way?

Web Rider
12-29-2007, 11:49 PM
Intruiging; the discussion of biology is in some regards abit interlinked perhaps? What is the evidence for our tendancies toward serial short-term monogamous relationships?

To be technically correct, biology says that women will seek physically more attractive males to mate with, and less aggressive ones to assist in child rearing. There is some inherent biological drive in a woman to WANT to sleep with half a football team, as it is the best way to ensure that "good" genes get passed on. Of course IMO, if you're only thinking with your genitalia, you really shouldn't be taking part in reproductive acts(while retaining the ability to reproduce).

The reproductive part of human nature is more interested in physical prowess than mental ability. The more nature parts of humans have yet to sync up with modern times in which brains are just as important as brawn, if not sometimes moreso. But that's where the human mind is supposed to come into play and say: "hey, we need to be smart, not just buff and sexy."

So, one would presume that the best kind of relationships, would be a monogomous one with a "father material" male, and perferably several physically well-built males, ensuring a safe environment for child raising, and a higher probability of variety in the genetic pool but with a focus on "survival of the fittest". Ideally, this situation promotes the concept that women should be the intelligent ones.

hmmm....is that Eugenics I smell cooking?

In modern society with what nature pressures us to pass on and what would be healthy for society to pass on, there's a good argument to not allow anyone to "sleep" with anyone else unless they've had a full genetic background check ensuring a high probability of a physically and mentally strong child.

ADDENDUM:
The real question to all that say “Yay!” Would you marry a woman that behaves in such a way? Would the person that you marry want you should you behave in such a way?
It is highly unlikely that without societal pressure for this woman to do so, she would even bother to attempt a monogamous relationship.

mimartin
12-30-2007, 12:26 AM
It is highly unlikely that without societal pressure for this woman to do so, she would even bother to attempt a monogamous relationship.As we get older; a monogamous relationship looks better and better. The entire growing old alone syndrome, looks fade, athletic ability fades, sexual prowess diminishes even mental capacity lessens. Most of us still feel the need to be loved even when we are less than perfect, so I believe, as we get older we do seek out a monogamous relationship or at least some type of fallback plan. Someone that will look after and give us support and hopefully someone we are willing to look after and give our support to.

A friend of mine from college had what many would consider a risqué occupation for eighteen years of her life. At 38 years-old that occupation is no longer a moneymaker, so she is trying to get back in touch with former friends and boyfriends. She is looking for a fallback plan right now.

Achilles
12-30-2007, 01:35 AM
What are your opinions on pornography? Rather than answer your question directly (because I'm not sure I have an answer), I'll share the results of an interesting study.

Linky (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64003-2005Mar1.html)

A brief summary for those of you that don't like to read:

a new study by scientists at Duke University that shows that male rhesus monkeys will actually forgo nourishment to look at photographs of naked female monkey bottoms. What's more, the monkeys did so even though they could look at real naked female monkey bottoms any time they wanted (seeing as they were also in the area and not dressed :)).

There does seem to be some interesting evidence with regards its effects coming to light. My big concern for say the girl in the article is I think she is damaging herself, and is perhaps already damaged. It is not for me to force my values on her as such; its more a concern for her later in life, and if it is a result of self esteem issues.As I had hoped to convey in my earlier post (and probably did a miserable job of accomplishing), I have no doubt that young women feel pressured into doing things that they don't want in order to be more attractive/not seem like a prude/etc. As such, I imagine that doing such things probably will have a negative impact. However, as you and others point out, if they are doing something that they enjoy, then that's really not for me to comment on. In this specific case, the girl was drunk and therefore the issue of "consent" gets fuzzy.

Personal observation; I tend to be a close confident to alot of friends, and people seek me out for relationship advice. There isn't any empirical data that I could show you as such; so you could argue 'the sample' of my friends contains a bais and isn't generalisable to the wider population.I think a lot of it has to do with expectations and general attitudes towards sex. I think we're sold a false bill of goods that sex is supposed to be this magical, special, wonderful, completing experience and when we find out that it's mostly just sex there tends to be something of a let down. I suppose that if this happened over a period of time and someone became increasing removed from these false expectations, that might seem like "damage" to some.

As to why; I think people can end up feeling lonely and use; indeed one of my boys had said to me that the lonliest he has ever felt has been on one night stands; he felt far lonelier then than when sat at home on his own. See above re: expectations.

The question I suppose comes back to why are people performing a certain behaviour? Most people tend to only act in a similar vain to their friends... If I ask most of my friends why they get drunk on a night out they couldnt tell you why they did... But everyone else doing it tends to have the herd effect, perhaps sexual behaviour is similar?Enculturation. We're inundated with ads that tell us that alcohol is going to open up doors to amazing life experiences, etc. So it's little wonder that a lot of people here like to drink. If pornography is telling us something similar, well...

Just as people still drink to the point that they get sick, survive hangovers, and stubbornly go back to do it again and again, it doesn't surprise me that people are willing to subject themselves to sexual situations that they find non-gratifying. Seriously, once you look at society through the eyes of enculturation, answers to certain questions become much easier to find.

Hehe; well in an ideal world; what do you think is the best place for sex and between whom? That isn't for me to decide for anyone other than myself (aforementioned value judgments).

Along those lines was my question; do you think the above behaviour is wise? Since you're asking me for my personal opinion: no, I don't think it's wise at all.

And I suppose if you don't mind divulging as I would be very interested to know; as you have children what have you/will you teach them about sex? We've actually already covered a great deal. I think the only thing that we haven't covered is the mechanics of the act itself, as they are still a couple years out from needing that info. We've already discussed safe sex, homosexuality vs heterosexuality, reasons why people have sex, applicable anatomy type stuff, what's going to happen once they begin puberty, etc. It tough to remember exactly what we've covered over the span of all the conversations that we've had, but this probably encapsulates most of it.

I suppose in some regards the discussion will move onto being a discourse of social norms and value judgements. I would of course assert that something being a social norm does not make it right; for example I would assert social norms and the treatment of woman in Saudi Arabia is wrong. I agree. Social norms are frequently backwards. My frustration with social conservatives is they seek to maintain social norms, simply because they favor status quo for status quo's sake. I agree with conservatism in that change should be made cautiously, but I don't believe in defending norms that don't deserve to be defended and I don't believe in knee-jerk opposition to change.

Sexual ethics of course is slightly different and depends on perhaps on your 'meaning of life view' as to your exact thoughts about it. Interesting. Why do you feel that sexual ethics differ from run-of-the-mill ethics? Or perhaps the better question might be: how are they different?

While I think your analogy of the basketball is a helpful one, do you think there are sexual behaviours which can be harming to an individual? Absolutely, but I'm not sure the question (or my answer) is relevant to the point I was making. Sex isn't "meant" to be anything. It certainly can be an expression of love between two people that have a deep affection for one another and it can also be a recreational thing without any personal meaning attached to it whatsoever. Neither is "more correct" than the other. The meaning (or lack thereof) is assigned, not inherent.

Intruiging; the discussion of biology is in some regards abit interlinked perhaps? What is the evidence for our tendencies toward serial short-term monogamous relationships?I'd recommend some digging on oxytocin and serial monogamy (not sure what I should link to and what I shouldn't). Mammalian species that mate for life are pretty rare (about 3%, IIRC). Once someone knows what serial monogamy is (a series of monogamous relationships over time), it doesn't take a whole of observation to figure out which mating systems most humans use. :)

Pleasure as always; your posts are always interesting to read :)Thank. Take care! :D

jonathan7
12-30-2007, 02:20 PM
hmmm....is that Eugenics I smell cooking?

Personally I have to remain ardently against eugenics because it then raises the problem of a feeling of superiority, and not too far off the back of that occurs certain policies, by a certain politician named Adolf.

To each his/her own. If that is their preference, then so be it. They may consider me weird because I prefer only to engage in sexual activities with someone that I consider that I am in “love” with.

Fair enough; I would say dont let political correctness get in the way of saying what you think; PC is the biggest killer of freedom of speech. People should be allowed to act as they like; that doesnt mean its a) good for them or b) or that we can't comment (even negativly) on such actions.

Why? If they are adults practicing safe sex, not everyone thinks alike, some people may consider such a relationship the norm. Where it may be damaging to me, someone else may be quite comfortable with such an arrangement.

Again it is their decision, I am by nature liberal so think people should be allowed to act as they like within the law. I am of the opinion that multiple one-night stand and even relationships can leave a person damaged. If you look at people in general alot will engage in behaviour that is damaging to them (e.g. heavy drinking) but I don't cease to love them just because they don't hold to my ideals. My own personal saw on advice is; "Good advice is a statement of fact or a question that causes the person to answer their own problem. Bad advice is giving your opinion which is irrelevant as all people are different and have their own paths to follow." - As such, that is the framework I work within and try my hardest not to express opinions when giving advice unless explicitly asked too.


That is not my call. If the person in question finds it appropriate and satisfying then I guess it is. Just because I would not do it does not make it wrong or unacceptable

I suppose that raises the question of, what is 'wrong'?

Rather than answer your question directly (because I'm not sure I have an answer), I'll share the results of an interesting study.

Linky

A brief summary for those of you that don't like to read:

Quote:
a new study by scientists at Duke University that shows that male rhesus monkeys will actually forgo nourishment to look at photographs of naked female monkey bottoms.

What's more, the monkeys did so even though they could look at real naked female monkey bottoms any time they wanted (seeing as they were also in the area and not dressed :)).

A highly interesting study, and in some ways quite curious. Personally I think that pornography is quite harmful; in that it encourages the culture of regarding people as objects to be used.

As I had hoped to convey in my earlier post (and probably did a miserable job of accomplishing), I have no doubt that young women feel pressured into doing things that they don't want in order to be more attractive/not seem like a prude/etc. As such, I imagine that doing such things probably will have a negative impact.

Agreed.

However, as you and others point out, if they are doing something that they enjoy, then that's really not for me to comment on. In this specific case, the girl was drunk and therefore the issue of "consent" gets fuzzy.

My one question is are you allowing political correctness to stem your voice? You are my friend a member of the intellegencia, as such your opinion is woth (or at least to me) a 100 times that of a normal person.

I think a lot of it has to do with expectations and general attitudes towards sex. I think we're sold a false bill of goods that sex is supposed to be this magical, special, wonderful, completing experience and when we find out that it's mostly just sex there tends to be something of a let down. I suppose that if this happened over a period of time and someone became increasing removed from these false expectations, that might seem like "damage" to some.

Aye, I do think that sex is very much overbilled; I think pornography can perhaps raise the bar of unrealistic expectations of such. Personally I can't comment too much, given that I myself am still a virgin, so within my realms of personal expierance cant quantify it.


Enculturation. We're inundated with ads that tell us that alcohol is going to open up doors to amazing life experiences, etc. So it's little wonder that a lot of people here like to drink. If pornography is telling us something similar, well...

Just as people still drink to the point that they get sick, survive hangovers, and stubbornly go back to do it again and again, it doesn't surprise me that people are willing to subject themselves to sexual situations that they find non-gratifying. Seriously, once you look at society through the eyes of enculturation, answers to certain questions become much easier to find.

Indeed; even more concerningly who is controlling the enculturation of our youth?

We've actually already covered a great deal. I think the only thing that we haven't covered is the mechanics of the act itself, as they are still a couple years out from needing that info. We've already discussed safe sex, homosexuality vs heterosexuality, reasons why people have sex, applicable anatomy type stuff, what's going to happen once they begin puberty, etc. It tough to remember exactly what we've covered over the span of all the conversations that we've had, but this probably encapsulates most of it.

Coolio :)

I agree. Social norms are frequently backwards. My frustration with social conservatives is they seek to maintain social norms, simply because they favor status quo for status quo's sake. I agree with conservatism in that change should be made cautiously, but I don't believe in defending norms that don't deserve to be defended and I don't believe in knee-jerk opposition to change.

I think that depends on what needs to be changed; take slavery for example; I would have to agree with Wilberforce et al, that it would need to be abolished straight away, instead of conservativly changing things. On the same token, something like education in the UK had been changed with knee jerk reactions, when a much more conservative approach would have been helfpul.

Interesting. Why do you feel that sexual ethics differ from run-of-the-mill ethics? Or perhaps the better question might be: how are they different?

Well normal ethics tend to come under the realms of, don't steal, don't murder etc. Where as sexual ethics are as we have shown sligtly different as the only people affected are those who are having the sex. So being liberal I think people should be free to have sex with who they want, although I personally think its a bad idea to run around having sex with lots of people. In an ideal world, I would personally think that sex would be best between 2 people in marriage.

Thank. Take care!

You too. :)

mimartin
12-30-2007, 04:51 PM
Fair enough; I would say dont let political correctness get in the way of saying what you think; PC is the biggest killer of freedom of speech. People should be allowed to act as they like; that doesnt mean its a) good for them or b) or that we can't comment (even negativly) on such actions. I was not being politically correct. I am of the opinion that different people can have different perspectives and different morals. Some people can handle the emotional toll such relationship might place on them others could not.

I am of the opinion that multiple one-night stand and even relationships can leave a person damaged.I agree with you to a point. However, I can truthfully say that a long-term monogamous relationship can easily leave a person damaged too.

I suppose that raises the question of, what is 'wrong'?
That is all going to depend on society norms and the impact on others. I would consider it wrong if I did it, yet that does not make it wrong for someone else to do it. I can hold myself to a different standard than I hold society.

jonathan7
12-30-2007, 05:12 PM
I was not being politically correct. I am of the opinion that different people can have different perspectives and different morals. Some people can handle the emotional toll such relationship might place on them others could not.

Okies, it wasn't intended as offence, and I hope you didn't take it as such. However I would have to argue that here in the UK the failure of adults to discipline kids misbehaving due to the post-modernity that is prescent within the above statement is why there are chav's aroudn. Some peoples conduct is wrong and they should be confronted about it. Into our realm (of intellectual debate) morals are an interesting question, and perhaps not within the scope of this thread. Although I am happy to go there :)

That is all going to depend on society norms and the impact on others. I would consider it wrong if I did it, yet that does not make it wrong for someone else to do it. I can hold myself to a different standard than I hold society.

This raises the question of what norms should society be held to?

Achilles
12-30-2007, 11:08 PM
My one question is are you allowing political correctness to stem your voice? You are my friend a member of the intellegencia, as such your opinion is woth (or at least to me) a 100 times that of a normal person. I appreciate the compliment.

No, my opinion is not influenced by a desire to be "politically correct". I tend not to oppose things unless there is a moral argument for doing so. If consenting adults are doing something that doesn't affect anyone but themselves, then there isn't much of a basis for an opposing moral argument. In this particular case we're dealing with something different, but so far as the general question goes, you have my final answer :)

Aye, I do think that sex is very much overbilled; I think pornography can perhaps raise the bar of unrealistic expectations of such. Personally I can't comment too much, given that I myself am still a virgin, so within my realms of personal expierance cant quantify it. I think at some point we may want to determine what we mean by "pornography". I don't think we can say that all media currently under the umbrella of "pornography" is damaging. On the other hand, there is some ridiculous stuff out there can't be viewed as anything but.

Indeed; even more concerningly who is controlling the enculturation of our youth? Unfortunately, enculturation carries through into adulthood as well. As such, I guess one could say that we all participate to some degree. What I always find amusing is the people that show that they refuse to fit in by wearing the same clothes and listening to the same music as all the other people that refuse to fit in as well. It's like there's some "rebel" kit you can send away for or something...

I think that depends on what needs to be changed; take slavery for example; I would have to agree with Wilberforce et al, that it would need to be abolished straight away, instead of conservativly changing things. On the same token, something like education in the UK had been changed with knee jerk reactions, when a much more conservative approach would have been helfpul. At the end of the day, it seems pretty obvious to me that those the stand in the way of morally justified social change do so because of their own prejudices, rather than because they have legitimate, morally justified counter-arguments. My 2 cents.

Well normal ethics tend to come under the realms of, don't steal, don't murder etc. Where as sexual ethics are as we have shown sligtly different as the only people affected are those who are having the sex. So being liberal I think people should be free to have sex with who they want, although I personally think its a bad idea to run around having sex with lots of people. In an ideal world, I would personally think that sex would be best between 2 people in marriage. I would argue that ethics is just ethics, but since it isn't pertinent to the discussion, I won't pursue it further than that. :D