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Dagobahn Eagle
12-31-2007, 11:26 PM
I was provoked into posting this thread by this story (http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=4022717&page=1), in which a man is provoked into committing a crime by a police officer, for then to be arrested:
Robin Garrison, an off-duty 42-year-old firefighter, was walking in Berliner Park in Columbus, Ohio, in May when he saw a woman sunbathing topless under a tree. He approached her and they started talking and getting comfortable, the woman smiling and resting her foot on his shoulder at one point. Eventually, she asked to see Garrison's penis; he unzipped his pants and complied.

Seconds later, undercover police officers pulled up in a van and arrested Garrison; he was later charged with public indecency, a misdemeanor, based on video footage taken by cops who were targeting men having sex or masturbating in the park. While topless sunbathing is legal in the city's parks, exposing more than that is against the law.

The case is just one of the more extreme examples of police stings aimed at luring people into committing crimes, a tactic that has resulted in hundreds of arrests, many convictions and plenty of controversy.I personally find this disgusting. It's akin to walking into a pub and provoking the resident MC gang members to get them to beat you up, for then to call the cops and cry assault when they finally do. We have no way of knowing that this man was going to expose himself publicly if he had not been lured into this trap.

There are also cases in which police leaves things such as X-Boxes, wallets, etc. lying about and arrest people when they pick them up. Jae, be sure to tell your kids that if they find a lost wallet on the street, they must not take it and take it to the police station, the lost-and-found, or to the rightful owner, because doing so is obviously not legal anymore:Other police departments across the country have dangled other temptations, from big-screen plasma TVs, Xbox 360 consoles and a shopping bag containing a cell phone and an iPod to catch people breaking the law.

In New York City, nearly 300 people, many of whom had no criminal record, have been snared this year through the NYPD's Operation Lucky Bag, in which undercover officers leave a wallet, iPod or cell phone in a subway station and wait to see who picks it up.Is it really that bloody important to the cops the public fears and distrusts them? If people litterally are arrested for picking up a wallet, that effectively means it's illegal to decide to bring a lost wallet to authorities or to the lost-and-found.

I remember a story from some time back about a mall leaving some cardboard boxes in gift wrapping around in their building and gave monetary rewards to those who actually brought them to the lost-and-found. Those who didn't discovered that they were full of whatever worthless ballast the mall people had filled them with. I respect such campaigns far better than this practice of making criminals or regular people just to give the impression you're doing something.

More on entrapment here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrapment).

Rev7
12-31-2007, 11:48 PM
This is really interesting. I find it crazy that you can't even pick up a wallet to see who's it is in order to return it. The police just assume that you are going to steal it. That is bogus if you ask me. I found a car key in the door of a vehicle at a mall once, so I took the key out of the door and walked it into the closest department store to give it to security. If it were a sting operation, I am, nearly sure that I would have been arrested. I do know that in most cases, people who take items like this, steal them, but there are some good people out in the world.

About the topless sunbather story, I am really not sure what to think about it. It is quite similar when the police have an undercover cop, out as a prostitute, to catch perverts. Apperently this women wasn't an undercover cop, and was just out sunbathing, but this wasn't stated in the link that Dagobahn Eagle posted. It boils down to, that this 42-year old firefighter did the wrong thing by exposing his genitles.

jonathan7
01-01-2008, 02:15 AM
While, I find what the firefighter did a little distastefull, I don't consider it a crime considering the woman was topless; its complete hypocrisy! He shouldnt be prosecuted.

The second seems flawed to me; what happens if you pick it up and were going to hand it in at a police station? Surley a smart lawyer could get you off! I don't agree with either, and I think both are entrapment.

Aeroldoth
01-01-2008, 03:45 AM
The operation led to 115 arrests last month and the police picked up more than $25,000 in traffic fines.This is why they're doing it, more money for the PD.

I now officially dislike police even more.

adamqd
01-01-2008, 06:06 AM
It's the same as what a lot of brit cops do, go undercover and sell drugs, then arrest the punters?! I know full well drug use and distribution is highly illegal, but, the process is just wrong to me

JediAthos
01-01-2008, 09:46 AM
I will agree that what the guy did was in poor taste, but I'm not sure that the cops will have their case hold up in court. I suppose it depends on the judge, but to me this seems in pretty poor taste by the cops as well. This and some of the other things you're talking about such as leaving wallets, ipods etc... out and arresting people who pick them makes the cops seem like they really have nothing better to do, and I would like to think that a lot of those type of arrests would get thrown out.

I don't know...I guess there really is a fine line here between a good sting operation set up by clever detectives and entrapment. There have been other instances where the cops have set up a give away or something like that and invited people with outstanding warrants to show up and arrested them on the spot. Is that any different than what went on in the case above? What about the undercover officer that poses as a john to arrest prostitutes, or the detective that poses as a teenage girl to catch online predators such as on "To Catch a Predator?" (I know for a fact that some of those cases have been thrown out)

SilentScope001
01-01-2008, 10:17 AM
Erm. Again, I side with the police more.

The guy did in fact commit the crime when given the provocation. And if he was likely going to go and do the same indecent thing if exposed to the same tempetation, so what the Police did was fine. The firefighter may very well have exposed his penis BEFORE to a topless lady, that why he was so comfortable with doing it.

And the police arresting people for buying drugs? Well, if they didn't buy them from the Police, they surely would have bought them from an actual drug dealer. And they wouldn't have gotten caught in the process as well.

Basically, if you ARE guilty of the crime, then why complain? The police's goal is to catch criminals and enforce the law. And they did. Agent provoctauers are very important today. Do you really think a mobster would scream about how the evil policemen pretended to be arms dealers? Or a businessman selling biological weapons would scream about how the policemen pretended to be terrorists? ("They were given me lots of money...how could I refuse?")

Okay, yes, they would. But still.

EDIT: Either way, it's in the court system. If there is need for reform, there will be reform by the police. And Lucky Bag...er...um...

EDIT2:
Another sting operation that made headlines involved police in El Paso, Texas, and U.S. Marshals sending out messages to wanted felons stating that they had "won" free Xbox 360 consoles and/or big-screen plasma TVs. The operation led to 115 arrests last month and the police picked up more than $25,000 in traffic fines.

This ploy, which has been used in other cities in recent years, is a new twist on an old trick, because sting operations involving drugs and prostitutes have been around for decades. And though defendants often claim entrapment, that argument rarely works in those kind of cases.

...Wow. Just wow. Someone saying, "Hey, you got a free X360, felon, come over to the local police station to pick it up" isn't entrapment, it's a person actively hoping for you to be stupid. Man.

"The definition of entrapment is police activity that induces somebody to commit a crime that they otherwise wouldn't do," said Gabriel Chin, law professor at the University of Arizona. "It's not entrapment to give somebody an opportunity to commit a crime."

Chin explains that entrapment involves an officer cajoling and persuading someone who's resistant to the idea of committing a crime. "Just preying on a predisposition is not necessarily entrapment."

There. That should prove that, at least, police officers posing as drug dealers is okay.

Corinthian
01-01-2008, 12:11 PM
Another sting operation that made headlines involved police in El Paso, Texas, and U.S. Marshals sending out messages to wanted felons stating that they had "won" free Xbox 360 consoles and/or big-screen plasma TVs. The operation led to 115 arrests last month and the police picked up more than $25,000 in traffic fines.

This ploy, which has been used in other cities in recent years, is a new twist on an old trick, because sting operations involving drugs and prostitutes have been around for decades. And though defendants often claim entrapment, that argument rarely works in those kind of cases.
This isn't entrapment, this is profiling - idiot profiling. Cops for the win.

Ctrl Alt Del
01-01-2008, 12:24 PM
Entrapment is just ridiculous. Somehow, it remembers me of the principle of the police used on the Minority Report movie: The cops foresee crimes (or sometimes just intentions or desires) to catch criminals before they do their pretended crimes. And the entrapment method just seem to don't have a point. None at all.

I now officially dislike police even more.
Don't leave Aeroldoth, a cop and a gun on the same room. :lol:

Aeroldoth
01-01-2008, 02:14 PM
Don't leave Aeroldoth, a cop and a gun on the same room. :lol:I don't know what this means.

And if he was likely going to go and do the same indecent thing if exposed to the same tempetation, so what the Police did was fine. The firefighter may very well have exposed his penis BEFORE to a topless lady, that why he was so comfortable with doing it.And maybe not everyone thiniks nudity is inherently wrong.

The man was walking along when he sees a semi-nude female. How many straight guys are going to ignore that? After chatting for a while this woman, who is evidently comfortable with her body and with nudity, asks to see more of him. Since she has shown him hers, it seems only fair to show her his.

There is nothing here to suggest the man would have exposed himself to anyone if she hadn't been there. Besides, SHE asked HIM. He didn't just go over and say, "Hey there beautiful, my name's Bob and here's my penis!" The difference between rape and sex is consent. The woman ASKED to see his penis, so clearly he wasn't forcing himself on her or showing her something she didn't want to see.

Besides, why was she topless to begin with unless to lure the men coming along into exposing themselves as well? Most people have a sense of share and share alike.

This is a clear case of entrapment as there is nothing to suggest the man was going to, or would have done this without police leading him into this crime. It is a ridiculous waste of police time and resources. I have no respect for cops who do this, and it certainly doesn't make me feel "safer" in my community. On the contrary, it only contributes to the gvt's fearmongering by making me wonder what innocent action I do will get me locked up.

SilentScope001
01-01-2008, 02:29 PM
And maybe not everyone thiniks nudity is inherently wrong.

Then change the law. The police officers enforce the law, if you think the law's dumb, then change it. Don't protest against the policemen who's goal is to ENFORCE the law.

And where I live, breast nudity is probraly illegal for being a bit too indecent. So, he should be happy with the law he has, and follow that law.

Web Rider
01-01-2008, 03:02 PM
I think the firefighter should have known better. But that's just me IMO.

As for the other "temptations", I don't like the idea that they get you for just picking it up. They have no proof you were going to keep it beyond the nearest police station. I think a better tactic would be just have a cop walk by and see if the person turns it over to them.

Then change the law. The police officers enforce the law, if you think the law's dumb, then change it. Don't protest against the policemen who's goal is to ENFORCE the law.

And where I live, breast nudity is probraly illegal for being a bit too indecent. So, he should be happy with the law he has, and follow that law.

It's not really indecent if nobody other than the person who asks you to "show you stuff" sees it.

El Sitherino
01-01-2008, 05:01 PM
Law enforcement officials say that sting operations like these are an extremely effective means of lowering crime rates and stopping the criminally minded before they commit worse offenses.
Sounds to me like a middle-aged man was caught up by the fact that an (I'm guessing) attractive female asked if she could see his penis. Yeah, maybe not the best place to display your genitalia, but I can go with the entrapment thing.

Seems to me if she had asked him to go back to her place, he probably would have complied.

MJ-W4
01-01-2008, 05:21 PM
Always carry your cell-phone and inform the pleece on anything.

If there's a dead mouse on your doorstep, call your local pleece. (Make sure not to indict your cat)

If you find a newspaper on your doorstep, call your local pleece.

If you're exposed to raindrops that don't belong to you, call your local pleece.

If their phone lines are no longer available because they receive far too many calls from rightfully worried citizens, write a lengthy e-mail to your friendly neighbourhood pleece and don't forget to ask when the phones will work again.

If none of this helps, peremptorily turn yourself in, along with all the other rightfully worried citizens. You may need to provide for barbeque and similar activities around the cell block yourselves.

*Don*
01-01-2008, 05:31 PM
^^^
LOL.
Yea, that's kinda how I feel sometimes.

As for the entrapment thing, well I would be a little more logical.

Please find a better, more tasteful example to illustrate your point.
~9

Obviously that is too good to be truth. People have to be more aware of their surroundings.

As for the cops, well I would just make them listen to NWA's "F*** the Police" song.

Tommycat
01-01-2008, 09:22 PM
As much as I find this distastful, the police are following the law. As far as the firefighter, he could have said, "no" and recommended a better place to show his stuff than in a public park. With regards to the items placed about, they may have had a LEO in the area. We aren't given all of the details. For all we know they have a uniformed LEO walk up to them and when they don't say anything about what they picked up, he arrests them.

TK-8252
01-01-2008, 10:38 PM
Cops trying to get their quotas are getting desperate it seems!

EnderWiggin
01-02-2008, 06:10 AM
As much as I find this distast{e}ful, the police are following the law. As far as the firefighter, he could have said, "no" and recommended a better place to show his stuff than in a public park. With regards to the items placed about, they may have had a LEO in the area. We aren't given all of the details. For all we know they have a uniformed LEO walk up to them and when they don't say anything about what they picked up, he arrests them.

That's ridiculous. The man didn't even think that he was the person who did the wrong thing first. I'm almost positive that the man here didn't research indecent exposure laws, and hadn't realized that being topless is legal but what he did was not.

I think that what the cops are doing is over-the-top, yes, and persuades the people that would do the good deeds just to leave the wallet there, but what they're doing is obviously legal.

_EW_

Tommycat
01-02-2008, 09:32 PM
That's ridiculous. The man didn't even think that he was the person who did the wrong thing first. I'm almost positive that the man here didn't research indecent exposure laws, and hadn't realized that being topless is legal but what he did was not.

I think that what the cops are doing is over-the-top, yes, and persuades the people that would do the good deeds just to leave the wallet there, but what they're doing is obviously legal.

_EW_
Hmmm you corrected my spelling of distasteful, yet ignored that part of the paragraph. They are following the law, but I find the way they are going about it distasteful. I think if you lived in the area, you would be familiar with whether sunbathing topless was legal or not. Again, he could have said no. Not only that, but he should have recommended a more private location, like his appartment. If she then said "If you want me to go with you , you have to show me" then it's entrapment.

Web Rider
01-02-2008, 11:03 PM
Hmmm you corrected my spelling of distasteful, yet ignored that part of the paragraph. They are following the law, but I find the way they are going about it distasteful. I think if you lived in the area, you would be familiar with whether sunbathing topless was legal or not.

not really, I'm certain that most men aren't aware of laws pertaining to when women can take their tops of, unless that's something they're really paying attention to.

And I really don't know how far "following the law" can be taken when it's the police that incite somebody to break a law. If they weren't the police, I'm certain that would fall under some kind of accomplice laws. Without the police tempting this man to break the law, he wouldn't have, at least not in this particular instance.

He may have done it later, but that's not the point. The point is that the time he got in trouble for was incited by the police. I'm pretty sure there are laws relating to average citizens tempting people into committing crimes.

lukeiamyourdad
01-03-2008, 01:41 AM
I do not know about laws in the United States.

In Canada, this would probably not stand in front of a judge. The police cannot incite someone to commit a crime. They can give the opportunity, such as giving drugs to a mobster if he requests it during an undercover mission. Police officers posing as prostitutes is also legal, as long as they don't push themselves on the person. So technically, the man (or woman) has to come to her (or him) for "services".

These laws and the precedents following them exist for reason. It's so the state won't go fascist on the population and start inciting people to commit crimes in order to arrest them.