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Weiser_Cain
01-23-2008, 12:43 AM
Or strategy game, I'd like to fly in space and have a character on foot I could customize. It'd be nice if I could customize the ship too.

DeadYorick
01-23-2008, 01:19 AM
Or strategy game, I'd like to fly in space and have a character on foot I could customize. It'd be nice if I could customize the ship too.

Once you said customize ship the first game that came to mind is Ratchet and Clank. Since in both the 2nd and 3rd you can color his ship and change his armor

Anyway I recently got Deus Ex so that would be good

Weiser_Cain
01-23-2008, 01:25 AM
Did they have vehicles in that?

Uilleand
01-23-2008, 01:43 AM
Have you already played Mass Effect?

Corinthian
01-23-2008, 01:52 AM
No vehicles in Deus Ex. Can't customize the Normandy or the Mako in Mass Effect. However, that really doesn't detract from the games much.

Fallout and Fallout 2 are magnificent RPGs. They take place in a Retro-Futuristic Post-Apocalyptic world. Fallout 2 has a car which can be slightly modified, but other than that, you're on foot. However, the storyline is magnificent, the characters are great, and the gameplay is quite addictive and fun.

Weiser_Cain
01-23-2008, 06:28 AM
Have you already played Mass Effect?
Waiting for it on Pc

Sabretooth
01-23-2008, 07:56 AM
Waiting for it on Pc
While I'd go for it too, I wouldn't use the word 'waiting', if you catch my drift. ;)

I can't think of any straight-off space-based RPG other than the two KotORs and this Mass Effect thing rolling about. Deus Ex is my all-time favourite game because it has the best storyline ever and beautiful gameplay mechanics that make for one hell of a ride. There are the Fallout games, which I would recommend you play first. They are brilliant in art design, gameplay, story, environment - they're awesome.

If you've played Dungeon Siege, you might be interested to know that GPG is coming out with Space Siege next year, which is a sci-fi RPG involving plenty of character customization/modification. There are more sci-fi RPGs coming in the next few years any ways.

Corinthian
01-23-2008, 02:59 PM
I'd hesitate to call Dungeon Siege an RPG.

Tarridus
01-23-2008, 03:17 PM
I think he might mean a user-created mod to Dungeon Siege. One set in a Sci-Fi setting perhaps.

In terms of a Sci-Fi RPG on the computer, I think you might find your choices quite limiting. Other than the titles already mentioned there are very little choices to begin with in that department on the pc. One the console systems however, you have a few more choices to begin with but its only in the last decade or so that we've seen a resurgence on the American style RPG. The japanese counterparts, have tended to put more fantasy into their games but there may be similarities with the KOTOR games to that respect.

The key though is that if you want both of the things your looking for, you may never find it. RPGs for the most part tend to focus on story in terms of customization while allowing for the latter to occur of course. You have something like Dungeon Siege/Diablo style games which focus on customization and gameplay while having the story take a back seat, while others and KOTOR included focuses more on the story and interaction on the characters while allowing the customization.

You might want to try one of the Sci-Fi themed MMORPGs since they have a bit of both and are the closest things to what you want (but you need to pay a monthly fee to play however). Eve and Tabula Rasa come to mind as some possibilities you might want to look into but no game is perfect :P

Aeroldoth
01-23-2008, 03:21 PM
Dungeon Siege is NOT an RPG. It's hack and slash. :thumbsdown:

Corinthian
01-23-2008, 03:34 PM
No, Space Siege is it's own independent game. I've heard of it. Made by the same company, though.

Fredi
01-23-2008, 03:44 PM
Nexus:The Jupiter Incident.

Corinthian
01-23-2008, 03:49 PM
...isn't an RPG, it's a Space Tactical/Strategy Game.

Ctrl Alt Del
01-23-2008, 04:58 PM
Dungeon Siege is NOT an RPG. It's hack and slash. :thumbsdown:
If it isn't an RPG then Diablo isn't either. :carms:

Corinthian
01-23-2008, 05:19 PM
Diablo isn't an RPG, it's a Hack and Slash Action/Adventure with RPG elements.

Rogue Nine
01-23-2008, 05:41 PM
The Academy of Interactive Arts & Sciences disagrees with you about Diablo/Diablo II (http://www.interactive.org/awards.php?winners&year=2001&cat=200116#200116), as does the Almighty Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diablo_II).

Corinthian
01-23-2008, 05:56 PM
Meh. Wikipedia is an unreliable source. I have very rigid requirements for it to actually be an RPG, otherwise, you can pretty much call anything an RPG. From the right perspective, you can call Doom an RPG.

Ctrl Alt Del
01-23-2008, 06:00 PM
I suppose Mass Effect is a shooter/action game with RPG elements on it? You should broad your stict view 'bout that. Diablo can be a lot of button-smash, but so does TSL on the Malachor parts. Zelda is an adventure game with RPG elements, not Diablo.

The Academy of Interactive Arts & Sciences disagrees with you about Diablo/Diablo II (http://www.interactive.org/awards.php?winners&year=2001&cat=200116#200116), as does the Almighty Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diablo_II).
In addition, I disagree as well. :xp:

Rogue Nine
01-23-2008, 06:10 PM
Meh. Wikipedia is an unreliable source. I have very rigid requirements for it to actually be an RPG, otherwise, you can pretty much call anything an RPG. From the right perspective, you can call Doom an RPG.
And you are more reliable?

I wasn't aware your opinion was the end-all to what things are and what things aren't.

Corinthian
01-23-2008, 07:14 PM
Well, now you know. And, you know, knowing is half the battle.

Mass Effect contains, for example, a plot, dialog that has slightly more nuance than "Hey, could you go kill 30 Fallen" "I'm Kasha. I sell you mercenaries." And "I'm Gheed. I'm generically slimy and you aren't supposed to like me. Let's trade."

Zelda is more of an RPG than Diablo. What precisely makes Diablo an RPG? Uh...let's see. Well, you gain levels and boost stats. That is not, despite people's perspectives, an intrinsic part of an RPG. I can't think of an RPG without stats right now, but having stats does not an RPG make - I would like to direct my comrade's attention to WarCraft 3. Nobody in their right mind would seriously call the Vanilla game an RPG or even an RPG/RTS hybrid.

Diablo can be a lot of button smash? The understatement of the year! The whole game consists of little more than traveling through wilderness, walking into some God-forsaken crypt and duking it out with Andariel or Mephisto or Diablo or Baal or whatever Demon from Christian mythology they dug up this time, and then you have a short cutscene where some old guy follows Diablo around and then you're in a desert or a mountain or Hell, on your way to put your dukes up against some other hideous fiend...

Anyway, I'm digressing. My point is there's no Roleplaying Element. The characters are more flat than the Inheritance Trilogy, with writing that's two steps up from Eye of Argon. Basically, you have a bunch of Refineries that you deposit Treasure and receive coins which you then place into the Circus of Value to receive Magical Item #0002152666. I can get better RPing with a hamster wheel, two sticks, and puppets. Though puppets ARE pretty awesome.

How on Earth can a game be described as an RPG when NONE of the main characters ever even TALK? I mean, games like Chrono Trigger are kind of annoying where the main character never opens up his jaw and says ANYTHING, but good grief, Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance had more conversation that Diablo, not that it says much. The fact that our perspectives are warped enough to place a game like Diablo and Dungeon Siege in the same genre as magnificent pieces of ART like Mass Effect, Fallout, Baldur's Gate, and Planescape: Torment is a testament to our failure as a race and as a society and that we should begin searching our souls for something that redeems us of this blight!

Plus, Dungeon Siege isn't any fun! Well, except for the Uwe Boll adaptation. Life has never been so exciting.

Frankly, I'd like to ask what on Earth Blizzard was smoking when they created the Diablo franchise, but then I take a look at the plotlines for Warcraft: Orcs and Humans, and I realize something very special - they really weren't. Those first three games had about the complexity of plot as you might get from the brain of a Tyrannosaurus Rex. Although I'll credit them this. WarCraft I and II, and Diablo I and II were both quite fun, but frankly, Grignr would have been a welcome adaptation to Diablo's character roster - at least he talks.

In addition, who in the hell got the bright idea that the Action RPG category should be filled like this? Majestic games like Mass Effect and Jade Empire along such drivel as this!? There's magic all around us! Worse than madness, darkness! The decline of a society when it denigrates a Bioware work to the same scrapheap that they buried the E.T. game in! This is ridiculous! Why on Earth does the Action RPG genre exist? Just split them in two! One set goes to the Action genre, the other goes back into the RPG genre and we can all be happy instead of straddling the fence trying to appeal to both sides of the market!

It's essentially a matter of dialogue. When I hear more "RAAAAGHs!" from my Barbarian over the course of gameplay than I do talking to characters in the towns, even combining the villainous dialogues and cutscenes, there's a very serious problem. That problem is SHIFTING GENRES! Good grief, Half Life 2 has more dialogue than Dungeon Siege, Dungeon Siege 2, Diablo, Diablo 2, and D2: LOD COMBINED. Of course, Half-Life 2 is surprisingly wordy for a First Person Shooter (And incredibly fun too) but when something from the Genre that has pretty much been universally considered the genre for twitchy twelve year olds with more mountain dew in their veins than blood has more dialog than something that claims to exist within the ROLEPLAYING GAME genre, there's a very serious problem.

In closing, Diablo 2 is not an RPG by virtue of having less conversation that doesn't consist of WAAAAAGH, DA ORKS and it's offshoots that it literally CANNOT be an RPG because of it's predecessors within the genre. I've had single conversations in Mass Effect that have more words than most of the Acts in Diablo 2!

Rogue Nine
01-23-2008, 08:16 PM
Well, now you know. And, you know, knowing is half the battle.
Do you enjoy alienating people with your confrontational and know-it-all attitude? Because that's precisely what you're doing. You're consistently arrogant and brash and it doesn't lend itself to good discussion.

Zelda is more of an RPG than Diablo.
Why?

What precisely makes Diablo an RPG? Uh...let's see. Well, you gain levels and boost stats. That is not, despite people's perspectives, an intrinsic part of an RPG.
Um, then why does every single computer RPG ever made have some form of this element implemented in it?

I can't think of an RPG without stats right now,
How convenient.

I would like to direct my comrade's attention to WarCraft 3. Nobody in their right mind would seriously call the Vanilla game an RPG or even an RPG/RTS hybrid.
It's not an RPG, no. But it does have RPG elements, namely the leveling up of heroes and such.

Diablo can be a lot of button smash? The understatement of the year! The whole game consists of little more than traveling through wilderness, walking into some God-forsaken crypt and duking it out with Andariel or Mephisto or Diablo or Baal or whatever Demon from Christian mythology they dug up this time, and then you have a short cutscene where some old guy follows Diablo around and then you're in a desert or a mountain or Hell, on your way to put your dukes up against some other hideous fiend...
All while leveling up, speaking to NPCs and modifying equipment/spells/skills, all generally accepted hallmarks of computer RPGs!

Anyway, I'm digressing. My point is there's no Roleplaying Element.
Ah, here's were we get to the crux of your little diatribe. Based on a previous statement you've made, all computer games can be defined as role-playing games, in that when you play, you take on the role of the character in the game and go through it as that person. So everything is a role-playing game!

How on Earth can a game be described as an RPG when NONE of the main characters ever even TALK? I mean, games like Chrono Trigger are kind of annoying where the main character never opens up his jaw and says ANYTHING
Um, most of the eastern RPGs like Chrono Trigger/Cross and Final Fantasy feature silent protagonists. Do you not consider them RPGs?

The fact that our perspectives are warped enough to place a game like Diablo and Dungeon Siege in the same genre as magnificent pieces of ART like Mass Effect, Fallout, Baldur's Gate, and Planescape: Torment is a testament to our failure as a race and as a society and that we should begin searching our souls for something that redeems us of this blight!
Your penchant for hyperbole is amusing.

And it's easy enough to group them together when they share a number of similar elements like, experience systems, quests, exploration, NPC interaction.

Frankly, I'd like to ask what on Earth Blizzard was smoking when they created the Diablo franchise
Obviously something really good, since their Diablo franchise is rather successful.

but then I take a look at the plotlines for Warcraft: Orcs and Humans, and I realize something very special - they really weren't. Those first three games had about the complexity of plot as you might get from the brain of a Tyrannosaurus Rex.
Why are you looking for plot in an RTS? They're all basically the same thing, just with different background flavoring.

In addition, who in the hell got the bright idea that the Action RPG category should be filled like this?
Um, the people that make the games?

Why on Earth does the Action RPG genre exist?
Because it's a subset of the whole computer RPG genre that many a game can fall into for easy classification?

Just split them in two! One set goes to the Action genre, the other goes back into the RPG genre and we can all be happy instead of straddling the fence trying to appeal to both sides of the market!
As far as I know, you're the only person I know who is this riled up about a simple matter of classification. Does it cheapen your Mass Effect experience to know that it's grouped in the same genre as Diablo II? I certainly hope not, because that would be immensely silly.

when something from the Genre that has pretty much been universally considered the genre for twitchy twelve year olds with more mountain dew in their veins than blood has more dialog than something that claims to exist within the ROLEPLAYING GAME genre, there's a very serious problem.
Funny how no one else seems to think so.

In closing, Diablo 2 is not an RPG by virtue of having less conversation that doesn't consist of WAAAAAGH, DA ORKS and it's offshoots that it literally CANNOT be an RPG because of it's predecessors within the genre. I've had single conversations in Mass Effect that have more words than most of the Acts in Diablo 2!
In closing, Diablo II is generally considered an RPG by most of the gaming world (including the previously mentioned AIAS and several gaming publications) by virtue of possessing commonly accepted RPG elements such as an experience/leveling system, quests, NPCs, etc. I'm sorry it didn't have as much dialogue as you would have liked, but that doesn't change the fact that most people consider it one of the most successful action role-playing games ever. You're free to think what you want, but I don't believe you'll find very many people who would agree with you.

Corinthian
01-23-2008, 08:36 PM
Do you enjoy alienating people with your confrontational and know-it-all attitude? Because that's precisely what you're doing. You're consistently arrogant and brash and it doesn't lend itself to good discussion.
...You do realize the degree of sarcasm in the preceding statement, right?

Why?

If you take the Zelda series as a whole, it actually has a decent plotline. Diablo has no plotline worth talking about.



Um, then why does every single computer RPG ever made have some form of this element implemented in it? Point taken. I'll rephrase. Stat-building is not the core of an RPG. You can have a game with stats that is not an RPG and you could potentially have an RPG without stats.


It's not an RPG, no. But it does have RPG elements, namely the leveling up of heroes and such. Yup. Just like Diablo is an Action/Adventure game with some slight amounts of RPG elements.


All while leveling up, speaking to NPCs and modifying equipment/spells/skills, all generally accepted hallmarks of computer RPGs!
Does not justify it being in the genre. There is no degree of Roleplaying.

Ah, here's were we get to the crux of your little diatribe. Based on a previous statement you've made, all computer games can be defined as role-playing games, in that when you play, you take on the role of the character in the game and go through it as that person. So everything is a role-playing game! That wasn't serious. I was referring that, to take the term Role Playing Game as is, you can call anything an RPG. I'm pretty sure you understood that.

Um, most of the eastern RPGs like Chrono Trigger/Cross and Final Fantasy feature silent protagonists. Do you not consider them RPGs?
Already addressed that. Silent Protagonists are one thing. You'll notice that the characters Marle, Lucca, Frog, Magus, Robo, and Ayla talk quite a lot. Also, I've never seen a Final Fantasy with a Silent Protagonist, although I actually haven't played 1-3.

Your penchant for hyperbole is amusing.
Hey, it's what I do.
And it's easy enough to group them together when they share a number of similar elements like, experience systems, quests, exploration, NPC interaction. I'm frankly nauseated that people consider the drivel in Diablo 2 to be NPC Interaction. It's about as close to proper interaction as a sales pitch is to a healthy conversation.
Obviously something really good, since their Diablo franchise is rather successful. It is fun if you like that kind of thing. Doesn't make it an RPG.


Why are you looking for plot in an RTS? They're all basically the same thing, just with different background flavoring. I look for a plot in everything. I may not play it for the plot, but a good plot is a good thing no matter what genre. Half-Life 2 is an FPS and has a GREAT plot.


Um, the people that make the games?
Name the last self-proclaimed Hack and Slash game that did well.
Because it's a subset of the whole computer RPG genre that many a game can fall into for easy classification?
My protest is that Mass Effect and Dungeon Siege are as different as a Buddha Statue and Dihydrogen Monoxide. By the way, that's the whole Hyperbole thing again.

As far as I know, you're the only person I know who is this riled up about a simple matter of classification. Does it cheapen your Mass Effect experience to know that it's grouped in the same genre as Diablo II? I certainly hope not, because that would be immensely silly.
Not really. I just got bored so I wrote up an oversized rant.

Funny how no one else seems to think so.

Set up a poll!

In closing, Diablo II is generally considered an RPG by most of the gaming world (including the previously mentioned AIAS and several gaming publications) by virtue of possessing commonly accepted RPG elements such as an experience/leveling system, quests, NPCs, etc. I'm sorry it didn't have as much dialogue as you would have liked, but that doesn't change the fact that most people consider it one of the most successful action role-playing games ever. You're free to think what you want, but I don't believe you'll find very many people who would agree with you.
[/quote] Of course it is! Nobody questions it! Besides, that's what Blizzard's official designation for it is because nobody in their right mind actually calls a game a Hack & Slash because Hack & Slash has negative connontations.

I refuse to call Diablo an RPG because there is no Roleplaying. The 'characters' might as well just be a set of wands that are capable of turning Gold into Shadow Dragon Plate Armor of Azerbaijani Kill Kill Carnage and back again.

Weiser_Cain
01-23-2008, 08:46 PM
So...... how about them games?

Exactly, and how 'bout that Marie Antoinette thing? Darn shame she had to go and lose her head.... :) --Jae

Ctrl Alt Del
01-24-2008, 07:45 PM
Planetscape, Fallout 1 & 2, a lot of games have been named Weiser_Cain, and though they're somewhat old, you'll probably like them.

Rogue Nine posted much of my points there regarding your argue about RPGs, Corinthian. Besides, I'm too lazy to answer much of those so-called points you made on that oversized rant of yours. Just a thing.

Already addressed that. Silent Protagonists are one thing. You'll notice that the characters Marle, Lucca, Frog, Magus, Robo, and Ayla talk quite a lot. Also, I've never seen a Final Fantasy with a Silent Protagonist, although I actually haven't played 1-3.
Talk about a japanese game more westernized.

Corinthian
01-24-2008, 07:59 PM
Talk about a Japanese Game More Westernized? I have no idea what the hell you mean.

Ctrl Alt Del
01-24-2008, 08:06 PM
There are some games that were meant to be actually praised on the west, thus we get some elements on those games that normally please we on this side of the globe.

SilentScope001
01-24-2008, 11:18 PM
I somewhat enjoyed "Adventures in the Galaxy of Fantabulous Wonderment" (http://www.fullyramblomatic.com/gfw/). It does appear to be an Elite clone (in which you play as a trader who can buy and sell stuff), but you do upgrade your ship to grow more powerful, and combat with your enemies is turn-based. It does however has tons of funny, made by Yazthee, the guy who does ZP.

I haven't completed it, but I think I will...um...eventually. The reason I recommend it is because it's free.

Sabretooth
01-25-2008, 09:22 AM
I'd hesitate to call Dungeon Siege an RPG.
I think he might mean a user-created mod to Dungeon Siege. One set in a Sci-Fi setting perhaps.
Dungeon Siege is NOT an RPG. It's hack and slash. :thumbsdown:
Take it easy people, I never even said it was an RPG, sheeh. :p

*continues reading discussion*
So...... how about them games?
:lol:

Yup. Just like Diablo is an Action/Adventure game with some slight amounts of RPG elements.
Give me one good opposing statement against this:
Mass Effect, Knights of the Old Republic, Fallout and Neverwinter Nights are all Action/Adventure games with some slight amounts of RPG elements.

And back it up with some facts or something.

Point taken. I'll rephrase. Stat-building is not the core of an RPG. You can have a game with stats that is not an RPG and you could potentially have an RPG without stats.
Then, Corinthan, what is the core of RPGs? Your previous statements seem to suggest "a decent story" is the answer, and that I'd highly oppose. You can have a perfectly fun and enjoyable RPG without any story. RPG storylines have ended up better in RPGs because they are on a generally epic scale and have a lot of time and space to add stories.

I'm frankly nauseated that people consider the drivel in Diablo 2 to be NPC Interaction. It's about as close to proper interaction as a sales pitch is to a healthy conversation.
Whether you vomit or not, people do and it officially is. You can't say something isn't what it is if isn't what you expect it to be.

I address Chrono Trigger.... snipped baiting--Jae
While most Eastern RPGs prefer to stay to their roots as much as possible, they sometimes deviate in design in order to accomodate the western audience, thereby increasing their sales and invading the western gaming mainstream.

Dagobahn Eagle
01-25-2008, 09:58 AM
There's always this gem by Yahtzee.

Check it out. (http://www.fullyramblomatic.com/gfw/)

Ctrl Alt Del
01-25-2008, 07:04 PM
While most Eastern RPGs prefer to stay to their roots as much as possible, they sometimes deviate in design in order to accomodate the western audience, thereby increasing their sales and invading the western gaming mainstream.
Precisely. And we're not talking about Chrono Trigger/Cross here, Corinthian.


Point taken. I'll rephrase. Stat-building is not the core of an RPG. You can have a game with stats that is not an RPG and you could potentially have an RPG without stats.So, according to your "strict views about what is a RPG", I take that Half-Life is a RPG with shooter elements on it?

Corinthian
01-25-2008, 07:19 PM
Not really, no. Half-Life tends to be extremely linear, there are no side-plots, the dialogue is one-sided...Half Life is a pure FPS, although I'd say it still is closer to an RPG than Diablo.

Ctrl Alt Del
01-25-2008, 07:59 PM
But many RPGs have the characteristics you just mentioned.

Sabretooth
01-25-2008, 09:36 PM
Not really, no. Half-Life tends to be extremely linear, there are no side-plots, the dialogue is one-sided...Half Life is a pure FPS, although I'd say it still is closer to an RPG than Diablo.
Again, Corinthian - your definition of roleplaying is pretty vague. How do you define a perfect and pure roleplaying game?

Corinthian
01-25-2008, 10:05 PM
Fallout, my dear Sabretooth, is a Perfect RPG.

Name one, Ctrl. See, I've always been of the silly impression that for a proper RPG the player has to have some degree of freedom beyond hanging out in Zozo fighting Hades Gigas until he's level 99.

Sabretooth
01-25-2008, 10:35 PM
Fallout, my dear Sabretooth, is a Perfect RPG.
I asked for a definition, not an example. How do you define the perfect RPG and how many people back up your definition?

SilentScope001
01-25-2008, 10:41 PM
While I am unsympatheic to the rants of Corinth, I do think you can have an RPG without stats. I played in PARANOIA, a game without stats, and it could be doable in a computer-setting, but you'll need to do lots of programming, and it could just devolve into a simple Choose-Your-Own-Adventure.

Here's a possible definition of a perfect RPG, which might suite Cornith:

[[A game where you "roleplay" and "pretend" to be another person. In other games, the focus would be on the gameplay (as the game would 'roleplay' FOR you instead of the other way around). In RPGs, the focus would be pretending to be that person, by engaging in dialouge, by trying to 'pretendly practice' to increase your stats, by making choices, and by walking around.

Basically, what makes an RPG? The ability to pretend to be someone else rather than having the game pretend to be someone else. In Fallout, you pretend to be the character, and the game handles all the combat. In HL2, you handle all the combat, and the game pretends to be the character.]]

Ctrl Alt Del
01-26-2008, 10:04 AM
Name one, Ctrl. See, I've always been of the silly impression that for a proper RPG the player has to have some degree of freedom beyond hanging out in Zozo fighting Hades Gigas until he's level 99.
I think that Disgaea: Hour of Darkness (http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/rpg/disgaeahourofdarkness/index.html?tag=result;title;3) will do. There aren't side-plots, the dialog is one sided and it's extremely linear. Still, it's one hell of a good strategic RPG.

Thing is, Corinthian, that your definition might work if we restrict our view to the most orthodox western developers (e.g. Bioware), but if we extend our view to the east games, that same view will crumble to dust.

In Fallout, you pretend to be the character, and the game handles all the combat. In HL2, you handle all the combat, and the game pretends to be the character
So does any Final Fantasy, Silent. The character decides where/how/what he's doing next. You just lead him there.

Aeroldoth
01-26-2008, 12:40 PM
The fact that our perspectives are warped enough to place a game like Diablo and Dungeon Siege in the same genre as magnificent pieces of ART like Mass Effect, Fallout, Baldur's Gate, and Planescape: Torment is a testament to our failure as a race and as a society and that we should begin searching our souls for something that redeems us of this blight! QFT

I, for one, second C's sentiments. Dumbed-down, watered-down simplified games with a dash of dialogue sprinkled on do not qualify as RPGs. Hack and Slash are not RPGs.

For those who don't know, RPG stands for Role-Playing Game. That means that the primary element is to role-play, as in, pretend to be someone else and interact with others AS that persona. It's acting meets storytelling. I distinguish RPGs from CRPGs (Computer RPGs) since CRPGs are inherently more limited and constrained than the open-endedness of real RPGs.

Perhaps my narrow views of CRPGS comes from having played D&D and other RPGs for almost thirty years. My point of reference is from sitting at a table with a bunch of friends while telling an interactive story. I suspect that people who consider games like Diablo a CRPG are people who have never played an actual RPG, and so their frame of reference will be quite different. From where I stand, Diablo has nothing in common with D&D, and so I cannot call it an RPG by any stretch of the word.

Speaking for myself, I too share some of C's anger over the practice of calling such games RPGs. Why? Because when I buy a game that says it's an RPG, I expect that there will be role-playing elements for me to enjoy. When there AREN'T, I get pissed off. I feel cheated, lied to, but most of all depressed, because this cool new game that I was all excited over is garbage. Now, I'm out the money for the game, all my anticipation for the game was wasted, and all the fun-filled hours I had envisioned will never be.

It's a big let-down, and what makes it so bad, is that I can't totally blame the game company. They called it an RPG because some people in this world think a game filled with endless hacking IS an RPG. So I get angry because of people who call something RPG just because it has magic swords in it. It is a corruption of the term. Would you be happy installing your cool new sports game and finding Pong? Would you be happy installing your cool new strategy game and finding Tic-Tac-Toe? How's about installing your cool new war game and finding rock-paper-scissors?

I'm guessing that people who have never played actual RPGs are getting their definitions from MMORPGs. If this is your frame of reference, then sure, I can see where you're coming from. To you, killing stuff, selling your loot, killing more stuff, then selling more loot, is an RPG. However, those are not RPGs.

People here have asked for some definitions for CRPGs, so I will attempt to comply. These are off the top of my head, but they may give you an idea of what I mean.

* Half of your time should be spent reading game text/ interacting with NPCs/ conversing with NPCs, as opposed to fighting. Buying from merchants doesn't count.

* Characters, including yours, should have depth, personality, and something unique about them that differentiates them from all the other characters in the game. Having a monster as a merchant doesn't count.

* There should be a strong sense of plot and storyline. Games can be linear or open-ended (the latter preferably), but there should be NO problem answering The Actor's Question, "What's my motivation?" If, after you've finished the game, you can't turn to a friend and tell them how the game went in a somewhat story-like manner, then it's not an RPG. Saying you got phat lewt and pwned everything doesn't count.

* The game should be immersive, realistic. You should have an idea of what kind of land you exist in, what major events are going on, who the local powers are and their motivations, etc. If you can imagine that this is a real place with things going on, things which you can affect, and which can affect you, and others, then it's an RPG. If your knowledge of the land only extends to where merchants, quest-givers, and dungeons are (because that's all that exists), then it's not an RPG.

An RPG is an interactive story. They should be a rich, complex, detailed tapestry of plot twists, environment, and excitement. What makes them fun is that, instead of just passively sitting there while the story is TOLD to you, you get to make decisions that can affect the story. You get to put YOUR mark on the story and, because of your actions and decisions, events may be altered, or even negated entirely. These don't have to be major, earth-shattering events, but should be things which will have real consequences for the locals, all depending on what YOU do, and the choices you make.

Do you remember the rich, complex, and detailed story of Baldur's Gate? Do you remember the story of Morrowind? Do you remember the story of Deus Ex, or Kotor, or some other game? Those are CRPGs. I don't remember the story of Pac-Man, because there wasn't one.


Well, now you know. And, you know, knowing is half the battle.Do you enjoy alienating people with your confrontational and know-it-all attitude? Because that's precisely what you're doing. You're consistently arrogant and brash and it doesn't lend itself to good discussion.
As an aside, do you know that Corinthian's line here is actually a quote? This is a famous line from the old G.I. Joe cartoon, which was on tv oh, twenty, thirty years ago. I don't know if you're American or not but I believe his tone here was playful, not insulting.

"The show is remembered for its public service announcements, where one of the Joes would give an important safety lesson to a group of children engaged in risky behavior. These PSAs always ended with the famous exchange: "Now we know!" "And knowing is half the battle." "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.I._Joe

http://www.joeheadquarters.com/joeendings.shtml
http://www.emerchandise.com/product/TSGJO0011/s.ALXhP8h0
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/parenting/detail?blogid=29&entry_id=21095

SilentScope001
01-26-2008, 01:22 PM
So does any Final Fantasy, Silent. The character decides where/how/what he's doing next. You just lead him there.

Ah, but the difference is that in FF, you are controlling your character by deciding HOW he trains. That's where things like. Skillpoints. That's how you pretend to be the character. But you do lose full control, yes.

Uh. Actually, IMHO, I don't consider FF to be an Roleplaying Game, I consider it to be a Rollplaying Game. The pure RPGs (according to me) are tabletop, like D&D, Shadowrun, PARANOIA, In Nomine, etc.

Ctrl Alt Del
01-26-2008, 07:04 PM
* Half of your time should be spent reading game text/ interacting with NPCs/ conversing with NPCs, as opposed to fighting. Buying from merchants doesn't count.
Uh. Actually, IMHO, I don't consider FF to be an Roleplaying Game, I consider it to be a Rollplaying Game. The pure RPGs (according to me) are tabletop, like D&D, Shadowrun, PARANOIA, In Nomine, etc.
The two of you are considering the tabletop to be determinant. In fact, SS even admits that true RPGs for him are the ones you play with pen/cards/dice whatever and a bunch of mates by your side.

SS, I don't think that you would find ANY eastern so-called RPG to be one. All would fit on your "roll"playing game category. Actually, there's one game... It's not even an RPG, or so I'm told, it's Way of the Warrior: Samurai (Careful, I could be misspelling it). You can choose your actions, you'll read lots of scrolls, decide who to help and who to tear apart, in the end, all those points that Corin said to be essential to a RPG... Still, it isn't said to be one.

Corinthian
01-26-2008, 07:28 PM
That IS my definition of a perfect RPG, Sabretooth. The more a game is like Fallout, the better an RPG it is.

SilentScope001
01-27-2008, 11:57 AM
I finally took a look at the RPG gerne, and well, I think both Corinth and the general community is right. Take a look at these two definitions in the wiki:

A role-playing game (RPG; often roleplaying game) is a game in which the participants assume the roles of fictional characters and collaboratively create or follow stories. Participants determine the actions of their characters based on their characterization, and the actions succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, players can improvise freely; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the games.

A computer role-playing game (CRPG[1]) is a broad video game genre originally developed for personal computers and other home computers. While technically not a separate genre, and sharing the same defining characteristics as console RPGs (also confusingly referred to as CRPGs) there are none the less general tendencies that make them distinct from RPGs on other platforms. The earliest CRPGs were inspired by early role-playing games, particularly Dungeons & Dragons, and attempted to provide a similar play experience.

...

Despite a spectrum of features and game styles, there are some elements common to the CRPG genre. Perhaps the most salient is that of the avatar, with its quantized characteristics that evolve over the course of the game, and take the place of the gamer's own skill in determining game outcomes. Another common element in CRPGs is a well-developed fictional setting.

Gameplay elements strongly associated with CRPGs, such as statistical character development, have been widely adapted to other video game genres. For example, Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, an action game, uses resource statistics (abbreviated as "stats") to define a wide range of attributes including stamina, weapon proficiency, driving, lung capacity, and muscle tone, and uses numerous cutscenes and quests to advance the story. Warcraft III, a real-time strategy game, features heroes that can complete quests, obtain new equipment, and learn new abilities as they advance in level. Some players might say that what separates these from games traditionally termed CRPGs is the inclusion of material not normally considered part of CRPGs, more than the absence of content which often is. However, many CRPG fans would say that the exclusion of these games from the genre stems from a lack of decision in character advancement, one of the key aspects in most CRPGs.

So a game that may not be considered an RPG by Corinth is not an RPG, but it is a CRPG. Two totally different gernes.

SS, I don't think that you would find ANY eastern so-called RPG to be one. All would fit on your "roll"playing game category. Actually, there's one game... It's not even an RPG, or so I'm told, it's Way of the Warrior: Samurai (Careful, I could be misspelling it). You can choose your actions, you'll read lots of scrolls, decide who to help and who to tear apart, in the end, all those points that Corin said to be essential to a RPG... Still, it isn't said to be one.

I've actually read the strat guide of the game "Way of the Samurai". Another reason why I regret having the Xbox instead of the PS2.

Regardless, it is still an RPG, in the conventional sense because of this:

Each of the swords available in the game has several attributes which influence its effectiveness in battle. These attributes can be enhanced using special items found in the game, or by visiting the in game swordsmith.

You can upgrade your sword. Therefore, you are gaining levels, and gaining power. Sounds like typical power-gaming stuff to me.

But it does lead to a question I don't really have a good answer to: What's the difference between a 'true RPG' and a CYA?

Taak Farst
01-27-2008, 06:25 PM
That IS my definition of a perfect RPG, Sabretooth. The more a game is like Fallout, the better an RPG it is.
Omg corinthian
~snipped~. Since when is there a rule that if you make an RPG it has to be like fallout, otherwise it aint an RPG? You are taking this way to personally, this is only a friggin game recommendation thread.

Don't call someone names, Wolv--it's against forum rules (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=169078). If you have not read those, please do so now. If you have read them, please review them. Also--IM speak is confusing for our non-native English speakers--please use regular English.

Jae Onasi
01-28-2008, 12:50 AM
Watch the tone, and watch the language, folks. Name-calling falls under the flaming category--don't do it. Cut the sarcasm--it doesn't add anything to the discussion except annoyance and/or hurt feelings.

The thread author asked for recommendations on SF RPGs, and this has digressed off topic. Please either return to the topic, or start a new thread if you wish to continue discussion about what makes a game an RPG as that is a completely different topic.

Miltiades
02-01-2008, 07:50 PM
I found these articles on the history of RPGs to be enlightening about what can be defined as an RPG and at the same time as a guide to which RPGs are my style and which aren't:

The History of Computer Role-Playing Games Part 1: The Early Years (1980-1983) (http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20070223a/barton_01.shtml)
The History of Computer Role-Playing Games Part 2: The Golden Age (1985-1993) (http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20070223b/barton_01.shtml)
The History of Computer Role-Playing Games Part III: The Platinum and Modern Ages (1994-2004) (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/1571/the_history_of_computer_.php)

There should be some Sci-Fi RPGs listed in there. It's of course impossible to list every RPG in any article, but any worthy RPG will be listed. It also only goes to 2004, so recent games such as Mass Effect will of course not be listed.

Ctrl Alt Del
02-01-2008, 07:54 PM
(Ouch, Miltiades. We already got scolded because our off-talk was perverting this topic purpose. :xp: But those articles looks promising, perhaps we should make another thread.)

Miltiades
02-01-2008, 08:05 PM
Yeah, I know. But I thought the original poster can use this... :)

DeadYorick
02-02-2008, 12:15 AM
Not really, no. Half-Life tends to be extremely linear, there are no side-plots, the dialogue is one-sided...Half Life is a pure FPS, although I'd say it still is closer to an RPG than Diablo.

You do know that Half life is pure FPS and Diablo is pure RPG. Half Life has no roleplaying elements whatsoever and Diablo is practically all RPG/action

Anyway if you want a mixture of RPG and FPS I would recommend Deus Ex since I just completed it. It has a great amount of options roleplaying wise and is a hard shooting game. It also has a great Cyberpunk plot/genre since it follows a lot of government conspiracies that could possibly happen in the future

Fallout got slightly boring for me as a game. Not as an RPG but as a game. Since it really didn't do much for me. Most of the Final Fantasy games were good as an RPG especially the 6th, 7th and 9th. Both the 6th and 7th were sci-fi fantasy

A lot of games have been mentioned already. If you want a more recent RPG get Mass Effect which included the voice of Jennifer Hale AKA Bastila

If you want to broaden your search a little you could go for an MMORPG. If you want to have a customizable ship and character you could go for Star wars Galaxies which does both and more.

Also to all the people who are hopelessly bickering about the difference between RPGS and what games are classified as them I would recommend creating another thread for this since this thread is just someone trying to get recommendations for a Sci-Fi RPG and then all of the sudden we are talking about whether Diablo is an RPG or not.

jimbo32
02-04-2008, 12:26 AM
To get back to the original topic - sci-fi RPG's - I'd like to point out Freelancer. Although it doesn't fall under the "according-to-Hoyle" definition of a role-playing game, it does have an excellent story, is fairly easy to mod (including ships, bases and character appearance), and is very easy on the eyes considering that it's five years old. All of that and George Takei does one of the voices - what more could you ask for? ;)

One of my all-time favorites.

Corinthian
02-04-2008, 12:44 AM
Terracentral, I consider Diablo to be an Action Adventure game, although I do realize that nobody really cares. It doesn't matter.

There's Harbinger, which is a Diablo Clone, but I can't really recommend it for reasons that are obvious.

EVE Online is supposed to be very good, but I didn't have a good experience with it.

SWG is horrendous. I cannot suggest it in good conscience to anyone. The game has gone through almost as many revisions and retcons as the actual Expanded Universe, plus hardly anyone plays it anymore.

Fallout III comes out this Fall, but you'll probably want something sooner.

There's Star Ocean. I've played the first one, but I hated it. However, a lot of people say it's very good.

That's all I've got right now.

Ctrl Alt Del
02-04-2008, 02:46 PM
Anyway if you want a mixture of RPG and FPS I would recommend Deus Ex since I just completed it. It has a great amount of options roleplaying wise and is a hard shooting game. It also has a great Cyberpunk plot/genre since it follows a lot of government conspiracies that could possibly happen in the future
But if you want a game that mix RPG and FPS, and where the gameplay actually works, try Bioshock. It's retro, but ironically, you'll feel on the future.

Most of the Final Fantasy games were good as an RPG especially the 6th, 7th and 9th. Both the 6th and 7th were sci-fi fantasy
Two things
7th is actually more of cyberpunk.
6th is in no way futuristic; it's "medieval".

There's Star Ocean. I've played the first one, but I hated it. However, a lot of people say it's very good.
Are there any for PC? As far as I remember, they're only out for the NES/Super NES/PS/PS2. I've played Star Ocean: 'Till the end of Time, and it's very good - if you ignore the last part of the game, that can kill the story.

Corinthian
02-04-2008, 03:13 PM
Final Fantasy VI is closer to Steampunk than True Fantasy, actually.

Taak Farst
02-04-2008, 05:20 PM
For an mmo, i reccommend lord of the rings online

RPGs:
Just Cause (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Eidos-Just-Cause-PC/dp/B000FN5F0C/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=gateway&qid=1202163476&sr=8-3) - short desc. on link Mint game

Jade Empire

BioShock

F.E.A.R

Corinthian
02-04-2008, 05:39 PM
Just Cause, LOTRO, Jade Empire, and F.E.A.R. aren't Sci-Fi. Just Cause and F.E.A.R. aren't even RPGs.

Taak Farst
02-04-2008, 05:43 PM
I know but the thread-creator may like them anyway

Ctrl Alt Del
02-04-2008, 07:22 PM
He may, but if I ask for good romance movies are you gonna list porn titles?

This post wins, thread over. -RH

Yay! - CAD