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*Don*
03-18-2008, 08:06 PM
Every state in the US (and many countries out side of it) have anti-bullying laws that "protect" students from getting bullied by other children.

For example, in New Jersey, if one is found guilty of bullying, he or she is immediately suspended and faces a hearing in front of the Board of Education.

Although this may seem as the "right thing" to do, I can't help but wonder as to whether this is detrimental to the child's growth.

Standing up to bullies has been a long part of childhood culture and is manytimes considered a quasi "rite-of-passage". By overcoming a bully, a child gains self esteem and builds up confidence. However, if a teacher has to intervene and suspend the bully, the child will probably feel inferior and additionally get labeled as a "rat" and "snitch" by his peers.

So, all in all, should schools enforce such strict measures, or should they let the children handle it by themselves?

Jae Onasi
03-18-2008, 09:40 PM
I was one of the youngest and smaller kids in my junior high. I was awkward, had horribly thick glasses, geeky, and intelligent at a time where it wasn't valued nearly as much for girls to be intelligent. I got picked on on a very regular basis, and it was not an innocuous thing. It took me a long time to come out of my shell after the miserable junior high experience. It would have been nice to have learned some confidence to stand up for myself, but a. I didn't even know how to begin do it because I didn't have the skills at that point, and b. I didn't have enough friends to stand up for me to protect me if the bullies got others to gang up on me after I showed said self-confidence.

Do you know what we call it if adults threaten each other with violence or commit said 'bullying' violence? We call it assault and battery. If we don't consider that acceptable for adults, why in the world would we ever consider that acceptable for children to do?

We teach our children not to hurt each other, lie, steal, and a variety of other negative behaviors. We need to teach them not to bully each other, too.

So, yes, the schools need to establish guidelines for behavior, and they need to enforce them. The learning environment needs to be a safe place for kids to go.

Det. Bart Lasiter
03-18-2008, 09:49 PM
I've always been pro-Battle Royale.

True_Avery
03-18-2008, 09:51 PM
My little cousin, about 11 years old, was ganged up on after school recently and had the crap beaten out of him by boys larger than he was. He went to the school, but the school said that since it was after school it was out of their hands. So, these kids are getting away with ganging up on people simply because the authorities don't think it is worth their time.

Did that make him stronger? I doubt it. He had the crap beaten out of him and nobody did a thing about it.

Take in mind: What does that teach our kids about the justice system? He is a good kid, but I am curious as to how he views the authorities now. Sure, the school took a hands off approach. What happened? He got beaten up, the kids got away with it, and in the end nothing was solved.

It is good to stand up to those who bully you. But a bully, at least most, are kids who think they have nothing to lose and inflict pain on others. You can stand up to them, but life isn't like a sitcom. I've seen kids stand up to bullys and still get the crap beaten out of them, because the kid who is bullied is usually the smaller one.

That seems to be the case for boys. For girls, the bullying takes place in the mind. That is something that is infinity harder to stand up to, and harder to place judgment on. How do you punish someone for saying words from the position of a principle? What price do you put on emotional distress?

On the other hand, standing up to a bully can help. In my ROP class in my Junior year, I sat next to some guy who kept mocking me and my friend. I stood up and yelled at him in the middle of class one day. He told me to watch my back, I laugh, and from that day forward he never messed with me again. I did get in trouble with my teacher, but at least my teacher was willing to also punish the guy for being a pain.

I'll tell you now though: If I were to do that same thing as an adult, I'd be put on trial. Things are different after you leave school, and some habits you should just leave there and be done with.

Standing up with words is one thing. Fighting back fist-to-fist is another. If you are suggesting that schools should to become a battle royal where the kids solve everything, then I must say I disagree with you. It may make the kid stronger, but that is not the kind of strength I want walking my streets once they are out of High School. We have police and law enforcement for a reason. Love em or hate em, I trust them to handle measures more than some punk kids who think they are "all that".

It is against the law when you are an adult to "take matters into your own hands". If we let children grow up fixing their own problems, then they will get arrested quickly latter in life. You are in the wrong time period and the wrong society to be suggesting this.

So, all in all, should schools enforce such strict measures, or should they let the children handle it by themselves?
If this was Sparta, I'd agree with you. But in modern society, we value diplomacy over violence in civil matters. Knowing you can trust your authorities is something that can help, as a dislike for them breeds gangs. Past High School, I'd much rather call the police on some jacka** than stand up to him.

Call me a snitch, but I'll be the snitch that isn't in jail for fighting back.

Do you know what we call it if adults threaten each other with violence or commit said 'bullying' violence? We call it assault and battery. If we don't consider that acceptable for adults, why in the world would we ever consider that acceptable for children to do?
Quoted For Topic.

mur'phon
03-18-2008, 09:55 PM
Have you been the victim the entire class, lead by a few bullies, gangs up on? How do you "overcome" that? I spent my first year at school taking beatings, suffering rumors, pranks and isolation, and not being able to do anything about it since the class suported the bullies stories. It screwed my mind royally, I became depressed, and atempted suicide. "Overcoming" the bullies in my case meant not giving a damn about others oppinions conserning me, but that didn't help much when my face was smashed into a wall.
Me and my parrents tried to get the school to do something, but the school told us that "kids need to handle such things by themselves". It only ended when we convinced the headmaster to have a litle chat with the bullies and their parents.

Now what did I get out of the whole thing? negatives: depression, a nice collection of minor injuries, a chance of killing myself, a bad rep that stayed with me for 12 years. positives: a fair amount of guts. In my oppinion not worth it.

I reallize that my case is not the usual kind, but I believe schools need options to deal with bullies, and give students a chance to sue the school if nothing is done. While building character is great, it is not worth having a lot of messed up kids, and some who end up not screwing up their suicides.

Det. Bart Lasiter
03-18-2008, 09:59 PM
Knowing you can trust your authorities is something that can help...Only you can't trust them most of the time.

True_Avery
03-18-2008, 10:33 PM
Only you can't trust them most of the time.
I trust some punks to solve something 0% of the time.

Some our of loyal men in blue may be incompetent jacka**s, but I'll still be calling 911 when threatened. It may not be the best authority system, but I'll take it over a gang state any day.

I reallize that my case is not the usual kind, but I believe schools need options to deal with bullies, and give students a chance to sue the school if nothing is done. While building character is great, it is not worth the lives of those kids who every year who don't screw up their suicides.
Quoted for complete truth.

Have you been the victim the entire class, lead by a few bullies, gangs up on? How do you "overcome" that? I spent my first year at school taking beatings, suffering rumors, pranks and isolation, and not being able to do anything about it since the class suported the bullies stories. It screwed my mind royally, I became depressed, and atempted suicide. "Overcoming" the bullies in my case meant not giving a damn about others oppinions conserning me, but that didn't help much when my face was smashed into a wall.
Me and my parrents tried to get the school to do something, but the school told us that "kids need to handle such things by themselves". It only ended when we convinced the headmaster to have a litle chat with the bullies and their parents.
I went through a very similar thing in my Elementary and Middle School days. I got picked on a lot, and when I wasn't crying my eyes out in a corner of the school I was physically assaulting the kids picking on me. But, that only made me an easier target. Kids love to pick on someone they know is going to either explode or fall apart. It is a game to them. I was always angry, paranoid, depressed, and alone.

I went through Elementary School and Middle School an emotional wreck. By the time I hit middle school, the school system didn't want me anymore and I was to be sent to a school for unstable children. Thankfully, I didn't go there and was instead put into a class at my Middle School for emotionally unstable children. For years I took anger management and emotional control classes, and that is what ended up fixing me. Through High School I was watched closely, but have been good since.

And the class I was put into? It was a form of special education. Kids who had bad emotional problems. From? Bad parenting, bullying, and not getting the help they needed sooner. I knew kids who had attempted suicide multiple times. I knew kids that had tried to kill other kids. I knew kids who, like me, could no longer function in normal society.

So, I got both ends. I was an introverted, paranoid crybaby with no friends who would usually end up crying in a corner of the school by the time class was over. Or, I was sent to the principle's office for standing up to a bully physically a lot. Neither are good traits to grow up with.

Did it make me stronger? In my opinion, it made me more worldly and mature at a younger age. I was praised at 15 by teachers and parents alike for being one of the most mature 15 year old they had ever encountered. It gave me a lot of self-esteem and I stood up to bullys in High School verbally, yet still got suspended once for doing so.

I'm really not sure if it was worth the trouble though. I can't say I hated it, as I like the person I am today...

As Mur'phon said, a situation like that has only a few outcomes and it is not worth the lives of those kids every year who don't screw up their suicides. It is not worth the kids every year that don't get the help I got. Those of us who made it out are grateful of who we have become, but it also comes with the price of seeing many who fell down the same hole as us never get back out and knowing that they could have been helped.

Det. Bart Lasiter
03-18-2008, 11:02 PM
I trust some punks to solve something 0% of the time.

Some our of loyal men in blue may be incompetent jacka**s, but I'll still be calling 911 when threatened. It may not be the best authority system, but I'll take it over a gang state any day.What I was getting at was the fact that someone won't always be there to bail you out and being able to defend oneself is an important skill.

*Don*
03-18-2008, 11:35 PM
First off, I offer my sympathies to those who were affected by bullying.

Second, I was actually talking about the bullying that happens in elementary schools.
Granted, that the teachers should discipline the bully, but is it really fair going as far as to expell a 7 year old for bullying?

I was suggesting that the self esteem should be built up at a very young stage as to avoid complex and depressing situations in the future of junior high and high school.

Actually the whole root of of why I started the discussion was because children television shows like Barney, Sesame Street, etc have begun to subtly inch towards this type of mindset.

Why, just last week my cousin was watching Barney on TV and he started explaining to the kids how one should stand up to bullies and ask them politely to back off instead of running to the teacher which, apparently, would hurt the bully's "feelings".

True_Avery
03-18-2008, 11:48 PM
What I was getting at was the fact that someone won't always be there to bail you out and being able to defend oneself is an important skill.
Ah, then I would have to agree with you there.

Second, I was actually talking about the bullying that happens in elementary schools.
Granted, that the teachers should discipline the bully, but is it really fair going as far as to expell a 7 year old for bullying?
Yeah, I can see how that is a problem. There should be disciplines in place, but cracking down hard on a 7 year old could be considered an extreme.

Sabretooth
03-19-2008, 05:13 AM
Why, just last week my cousin was watching Barney on TV and he started explaining to the kids how one should stand up to bullies and ask them politely to back off instead of running to the teacher which, apparently, would hurt the bully's "feelings".
I think that asking someone to back off, or "saying No", or polite stuff like that is the worst kind of advice you can give to somebody who has been bullied. This gentlemanly method will not work 90% of the time, and 10% of the time, the bully will back off two paces and smash your head into a wall when your turn around. Besides, it just sounds impractical:

Bully: So, Joe - ready to get ****ed up?
Joe: Good morning, sir - would you kindly back off?
Bully: Uh, sure.
*Bully walks away, never to be seen again*

And hurting the bully's "feelings" is bull****. Did the sentimental bully think about the kid's "feelings"? And looking at the kid's generosity, politeness and inability to hurt "feelings", he suddenly stops being a bully and becomes a nice guy? Barney is totally screwed up, IMHO.

As for the topic itself, I think it should be made clear that kids should approach teachers and authorities if they are being bullied. Its not the catch-all solution, but it works, and it will also inculcate a sense of systematic law in kids. I think Jae put it perfectly when she said:
Do you know what we call it if adults threaten each other with violence or commit said 'bullying' violence? We call it assault and battery. If we don't consider that acceptable for adults, why in the world would we ever consider that acceptable for children to do?

What I was getting at was the fact that someone won't always be there to bail you out and being able to defend oneself is an important skill.
Agreed, but ironically enough, most bullies can attack because they can defend themselves (it's logical - a bully won't attack until he can defend). And in an unhealthy vice versa, kids who are good at defending themselves go one step further and exercise their martial abilities on weaklings.

Of the bullies I had in school, I distinctly remember that those who trained for self-defence, like karate or judo became increasingly aggressive and started bullying. One of them, whom I observed over the course of 10 years was wimp, until his father put him in for gym, some martial arts and that sort of stuff. And within a year he was bashing skulls.

And that is the reason I think that civilized habits need to be inculcated right from the start. Kids need to learn that authority is way more dangerous than the fists of the guy in front of you. They need to learn that it is authority that will solve problems sensibly, not violence.

Ray Jones
03-19-2008, 08:41 AM
I think the real problem is - why are bullies bullies?

Q
03-19-2008, 09:22 AM
^^^
Yup. ;) Probably because their are no consequences or accountablility at home or in school for being a bully. It's practically encouraged, and it's always the victims' fault.

And we have the nerve to wonder what causes school shootings. :rolleyes:

Pho3nix
03-19-2008, 11:21 AM
I think the real problem is - why are bullies bullies?
Good question, I believe It's human nature. And let's remember that bullying exists in the workplace as well. It's never limited to just school bullying.

I hope I'm not being too harsh here.

Standing up to bullies has been a long part of childhood culture and is manytimes considered a quasi "rite-of-passage". By overcoming a bully, a child gains self esteem and builds up confidence. However, if a teacher has to intervene and suspend the bully, the child will probably feel inferior and additionally get labeled as a "rat" and "snitch" by his peers.

So, all in all, should schools enforce such strict measures, or should they let the children handle it by themselves?
I believe children should handle it by themselves (which they normally do) if it doesn't involve physical bullying. I believe bullying to a certain extent does improve strength of character and self-esteem. Let me explain.

--

I could have easily been bullied throughout my entire elementary school/junior high because of my short-stature. But, my strong personality combined with a relatively high self-esteem triumphed, and in the end I gained respect and had new friends. You can do something about it. It definitely made me a stronger person. My high school years were probably the best three years of my life so far.

The way to counter bullying is not to show that you're weak. This of course can be hard. But if you can't handle it, you need to toughen up. It's life, It's supposed to be hard. Mental weakness gets you nowhere.

Web Rider
03-19-2008, 12:55 PM
the biggest problem I have with bullying rules is that self defense is as much a crime as bullying is. If you throw one punch, or even the odd block back at them, and not simply let them pound you, the school brass consider you just as much a part of the problem as the victim.

Hows that for generating the next generation of adults? Turning them into weak bodied/minded nitwits who will let themselves get taken advantage of instead of defending themselves. Police even have the same rule, "just let them rob" or "don't help you could make it worse", or "don't try to defend yourself".

It's all stupid. I'd gladly replace PE with self-defense classes so that people can learn restraint and have the ability to defend themselves.

Corinthian
03-19-2008, 12:58 PM
The real solution here is to hand out complementary sets of brass knuckles to kids who are fulfill a few criteria.

1: They are smaller than average.

2: They are more intelligent than average.

3: They wear glasses.

4: They have a speech impediment, such as a lisp or stutter.

5: They aren't especially social, or don't have many friends.

If they fit in two or more of those slots, they are equipped. If this is not a sufficient deterrent, they may have their choice of Mace, Stun Guns, and Tasers.

Q
03-19-2008, 01:08 PM
Instead of issuing weapons, how about recording devices so that the bullying can be monitored and the offenders dealt with accordingly?

Inyri
03-19-2008, 01:12 PM
Brass knuckles are illegal, Corinthian. Tsk tsk.

Just give 'em a set of those new plastic knuckles that the laws don't apply to because 'they're not called brass knuckles so they're not the same' :lol:.

Corinthian
03-19-2008, 01:16 PM
Qliveur, what's going to make a bully stop bullying? A fractured jaw, or detention?

Curses, you're right, Inyri. We'll just have to smuggle them in. Or get them legalized.

Smuggling sounds like the best option.

Q
03-19-2008, 01:23 PM
Qliveur, what's going to make a bully stop bullying? A fractured jaw, or detention?
Neither. Criminal charges and prison-like reform schools would fit the bill nicely, IMO. These people are criminals, and should be treated as such.

Hell, they're more than criminals: they're ****ing animals.

Corinthian
03-19-2008, 01:25 PM
Yeah, but my way both disciplines and TEACHES! The meaning of pain is lost on these scum, and then need to be re-instructed. Furthermore, it instructs the subject wielding that violence can be the answer, and it's usually the guy with the weapons who wins.

mimartin
03-19-2008, 01:30 PM
I think the real problem is - why are bullies bullies? Because they can. Speaking from personal experience I believe some bullying comes from an inferiority complex of the bully. They want to knock the other person down so the bully feels superior to that person. My step-brother was/is a bully. He weighed much more than the other kids and tried to bully everyone he came in contact with. I figured out quickly after our parents’ marriage that although he was big, he was also extremely slow and a very sound sleeper. Needless to say he stopped trying to bully me rather quickly. My stepbrother is still a bully, just more careful to whom he tries to bully. Probably because their are no consequences or accountablility at home or in school for being a bully. While I agree with this to a degree it is not always the case. Sometimes the bully just does not care about the consequences. In our home my parents had real consequences to our actions, yet my brother was still a bully. He actually thought it was cool to be grounded or to get other punishments. It was a badge of honor to him. Granted, that the teachers should discipline the bully, but is it really fair going as far as to expell a 7 year old for bullying? Yes and no. When I was 7 years old I’d loved being expelled from school for a time. It would have been like an extra spring break to me. My parents would have been at work and my brothers would have been at school, I would have had the run of the place. My parents believed in spankings, which did little to deter me. A couple of seconds of minor pain and then it was over. I for one could not stand being grounded, luckily for me my parents never figured that out and usually just spanked me. So what I mean by yes and no is the punishment needs to be what will deter that behavior for that person. For some expulsion may be a deterrent, for others it will be viewed as a holiday.

Q
03-19-2008, 01:49 PM
^^^
Did your parents use a paddle?

Mine sure as hell did, and I was scared to death of it. The pain wasn't "minor" at all. ;)

JoeDoe 2.0
03-19-2008, 02:02 PM
As many American kids today, I have my shares of encounters with bullies and whatnot. As a good lil kid, I went to the teachers and guidance councilors for help, but just warning were issued to the bullies. The guy that was tormenting me seemed to get amused by my suffering and continued to bully me for 5 more months. That's when I cracked, after trying to talk to him, talking with teachers and deans, nothing changed, so I did the only thing I could do; I smacked the kid one good punch in the face. Got suspended for 2 days, but the kid never came back to bother me again. (Mind you that I've been a peaceful guy all my life)

To my understanding, school staff can't do much until something happens

mimartin
03-19-2008, 02:19 PM
Did your parents use a paddle? Stepdad used a paddle with holes drilled in it or his fist, but then he was not patting my butt.
Mother and Grandmother used belts or when we lived in the country switches. My Grandmother would make you go outside and pick your own switch and you better come back with a good one. I should not call any of them minor. I just knew that none of them would do anything that would permanently harm me so the pain was easy to endure.

I also have a high tolerance for pain something my parents should have known after I had my leg broken after being ran over by a car while playing football in the median. I did not go home to tell them until after the game was over. Now if they could have duplicated the pain caused by not be able to scratch my leg during that time that may have been a deterrent.

Inyri
03-19-2008, 02:28 PM
Paddles are a wonderful thing. You paddle the kid once, then the future threat of the paddle is typically enough to make the child behave. No one likes having a sensitive area beaten with a piece of wood. We had a paddle, but oddly I can't remember it ever being used (we were just threatened with it a lot). I imagine it must've been at least once to instill terror, but...

And surprise surprise, me and my brother and sister were all very well behaved in public, as opposed to kids nowadays. -_-

mimartin
03-19-2008, 02:56 PM
And surprise surprise, me and my brother and sister were all very well behaved in public, as opposed to kids nowadays. -_- I have four young cousins that are very well behaved in public, at least when they are with me. The middle boy acted up one day at Target when he was about four years old. Without saying another word I picked him up and carried him and his little brother out of Target to the car and drove them back to their home. Once there I dropped him off with his mother and returned to Target and then to the movies with his brother and sister. He is now twelve years old and I have never had a problem with him or his brother or sisters in public. If they even start to act up one of them will make a comment “do you want mimartin to take you home.” My mother did me the same way and that was more of a deterrent than anything else. I also lived in a small town so if I acted up when my mother was not around she would soon learn about my misbehavior. I’ve never laid a hand on any of my cousins, yet they are all better behaved around me than their parents, yet they still always want to go places with me. I keep my promises to them all, even when that promise is a threat.

adamqd
03-19-2008, 03:03 PM
I was kept in line with a belt, ouch.

I was bullied for a while, because I was 6'0 at 13 and very skinny and ill lookin I was a target for the less "Awkward" kids, but by 15 I was 3 inchs taller and had filled out my frame... Lets just say there were some flying bullies on my playground lol

PoiuyWired
03-19-2008, 03:41 PM
I think the real problem is - why are bullies bullies?

Well, fact being, people, even adults, do it all the time. But as long as you stay within the allowance of the functional law, all is fine.

Granted, there is the difference between annoyance and rejection to breaking people's bones.

Well, I don't actually belone to the popular group either way back at school, but then again I took the "other path" Basically I belong to the kind who would be a frequent traveller to the principal's office, since my reaction to any pullying actions would be by extreme measures. Its like, send a bully to the hospital once (or twice in a case) and he won't *** with you no more. And, just like rl, you tend to get it off easy if you are beating up a known bully than a, say, teacher's lapdog.

Not that I would suggest people following my footsteps, since its school != sparta (though I was a big war history nut, esp interested in melee combat, and still is). Plus, I am actually just as bad as the bullys in a way, under the facade/excuse of confronting bullys in the name of justice. Plus, at least I know that an improvised spear thrower device actually did increase the range and penetration power of thrown bamboo sticks.

As for "legality of weaponary" Yes, there are 6329847238942 ways to have something damaging on you yet perfectly legal. Its perfectly legal to carry around 2 cans of soda in a double plastic bag, or a ring of multiple keys, or a long umbrella, or a big metal thermos with hot soup/oatmeal, backbone of a hardbound diary. Plus, some basic biology study (and nowadays combat internet research) would teach you some quick and dirty tricks that would provide you with fun and wonderful self defence, where you can easily got away with "I block and push him away and accidently hit him".


Don't intentionally misspell to evade the language filter. --Jae

Corinthian
03-19-2008, 03:45 PM
Forget that, Poiuy! The real man's weapon is a sock, stuffed with lead weights or quarters. That thing can split skulls, properly used.

Jae Onasi
03-19-2008, 04:15 PM
:roleyess:
Discussion of the best techniques to beat the crap out of someone is off-topic.

Q
03-19-2008, 04:19 PM
^^^
As well as counter-productive. The object should be how to best them without becoming like them in the process.

Corinthian
03-19-2008, 04:21 PM
Bah. He who fights monsters doesn't need to worry about becoming a monster himself. And for that matter, when you stare long into an abyss, the Abyss, in fact, doesn't look back at you because it has no eyes.

Jae Onasi
03-19-2008, 05:14 PM
Yes, staring hell in the face is going to be oh-so-productive in dealing with the bullying problem. It's obvious you don't feel like taking this subject seriously, but some of the rest of us would like to deal with this productively.

Darth InSidious
03-19-2008, 05:23 PM
Bullying is a complex problem that reflects larger societal shifts. I do not believe it can ever be truly eradicated- but its reduction will take years. Further, physical threats will not solve this - the best kind of prison is one of the mind.

Q
03-19-2008, 05:25 PM
Jae, he is being serious, and at one time I would have agreed with him.

Part of me still does. Bullying should be dealt with harshly, but violence should be the very last resort after all other options have been exhausted.

Corinthian
03-19-2008, 05:33 PM
On the contrary. Violence is fleeting - physical wounds will heal in time, unless you kill the poor bugger. But if you let the behavioral patterns of bullying to set in, you've got a kid on his way towards becoming the stereotypical frat boy, drunk, and general waste of oxygen and perfectly good carbon.

Darth333
03-19-2008, 08:29 PM
Why, just last week my cousin was watching Barney on TV and he started explaining to the kids how one should stand up to bullies and ask them politely to back off instead of running to the teacher which, apparently, would hurt the bully's "feelings".Some education can't hurt...and at the same time they learn to accept some criticism.

Victims of bullying can suffer of depression and it can lead to suicide too. Not everyone is strong enough (physically or psychologically) to overcome it or to stand up to bullies (edit: and that doesn't always lead to good "results" either). I have worked with many grown up adults who have suffered bullying in their childhood and others who have suffered serious physical and sexual abuses and in several cases I and the other people on my team found that those who had suffered "only" bullying were in "worst shape" than many others who had suffered what we would normally consider more serious forms of abuses.

Q
03-19-2008, 10:13 PM
Well, it is psychological abuse, after all.

And in a civilized society any abuse should be unacceptable.

mur'phon
03-19-2008, 11:26 PM
It seems that a lot of people think that if you only inflict enough pain on the bully, he/she'll stop. From what I have seen, this is rarely the case, the bully simply brings some friends/weapons later and beat the snot out of the poor kid, and or taking some other form of revenge.

Take me for instance, one day the "bully in chief" went after me without his friends. I rammed my knee into his groin, gut and chest repeatedly before using him as a trampoline until he was barley consious. The next day I get beaten by 15 kids before being subject to some nasty humiliations. Two days later, rumors about my voilent deeds and how I became a psycopath. In adition the teachers punish me harder than before, not only have the bullies backing from an entire class, but I'm clearly a "killer kid".


but is it really fair going as far as to expell a 7 year old for bullying?

I'm not familiar with the U.S schoolsystem, but in norway 99% go to public elementary school, and some schools have moved bullies to other schools. It apears to work fairly well, the bully becomes the "strange kid with no friends", making them feel a bit like their victims without hurting their education. Not sure if it would work in the U.S though.

I believe children should handle it by themselves (which they normally do) if it doesn't involve physical bullying. I believe bullying to a certain extent does improve strength of character and self-esteem.

I disagre, to me the non-physical part of bullying where far worse. Imagine if "everyone" believes that you are a (everything except hetero) phile, they talk about your alleged sexual exploits, and how their fathers enjoyed your prostitute mother. This happen wherever you go, and people always talking "around" you, but not to you. When you protest, the either ignore you or simply laugh. As this happens your friends are trying as hard as they can to apear to not know you, while at the same time trying to not offend you.
You might think you could easily stand up to that, but I won't believe you unless/until you have experienced it.
While in the end it gave me guts, willpower and freedom from the "peer police", it isn't all positive as it has become incredibly har for me to "fit in" and acept social norms I disagree with.

@True_Avery: Nice to see someone else who got out of the pit in one piece :D

Rev7
03-22-2008, 02:22 PM
He went to the school, but the school said that since it was after school it was out of their hands.
What state was this in?
I know that when I was still in the schooling system in California, everybody was told on the first day of school, that the school was still responsible for you from the time that school starts, until your feet touch the inside of your house at the end of the day. Or, at least that is what I have been told.

I think that there should be more guidelines set up. I know that I hated being bullied on when I was in elementary school. I hated it. I can into school puttinga false smile on my face. I know that I kept it "bottled up" for a little while. Eventually I just couldn't take it anymore, so I went to the principal of the school, and it was immediately taken care of.

I was always the fat guy around at school. And the "smart" guy in class. Odd mixture? I still do weight the most in the whole school, but I think that sports have really been a faucet for me. I have found out that I am a strong, big athletic guys, not just fat. Through sports, I guess that I have proven myself, physically, mentally, and socially. The down side to that is that when I go to pat someone on the back or something, they always cringe and, I guess curl up a little bit. I always have to tell them that I'm not gonna hurt them.

To sum it all up, I think that there SHOULD be more rules and regulations that stop bullying, or harster punishments. No issuing of weapons, or anything like that. I think that that is nearly the same as issuing a gun. Think about it. If someone is issued weapons such as "brass-knuckles" or mace, ect. someone will eventually bring a gun to take care of there problems. Use words to try to resolve the problem, rather than violence.

Bee Hoon
03-23-2008, 03:49 AM
Being in American schools sounds unpleasant:/

My secondary school had the both the cream of the middle class population and the slum kids that were pretty much just killing time until they could leave school legally (it's compulsory to school your child until age of 17). As a prefect, I had to deal with them as well, and it's pretty intimidating to tell a known gangster to tuck in his shirt and put on his tie:/

There were mitigating factors though, such as the discipline teacher who lurvesssss caning male students. Nevertheless, I think that one of the reason why I received some grudging respect from them (a pathetically small amount :p) was that I didn't act afraid, and I asked them nicely:/ Either that or they just were being nice 'cuz I'm a girl :p

As numerous people have pointed out, self-esteem goes a long way towards preventing bullying. Even if you don't have it, fake it!

JoeDoe 2.0
03-23-2008, 01:18 PM
I found something interesting: The effects of bullying can be serious and even fatal. Mona O’Moore Ph. D of the Anti-Bullying Center, Trinity College Dublin, said, "There is a growing body of research which indicates that individuals, whether child or adult who are persistently subjected to abusive behavior are at risk of stress related illness which can sometimes lead to suicide"

Bullying is a disease that can't be eradicated, but it can be alleviated by teaching our children to treat others with respect

Ghost Down
03-24-2008, 06:37 AM
One of them, whom I observed over the course of 10 years was wimp, until his father put him in for gym, some martial arts and that sort of stuff. And within a year he was bashing skulls.

Was his name.. *DUN DUN DUN* SABRETOOTH?! :xp:

JediRevan
03-24-2008, 10:09 AM
I have an eighteen year old son who was bullied in middle school. He took the bullying until he was slapped across the face three times by one of them in the cafeteria. He stood up, followed the bully onto the stage, and threw him off it. He immediately started pounding on the bully. A teacher stepped in and separated them but my son almost swung on him. The school started to suspend him until they found out the bully had started it. The bully was suspended and my son received lunch room duty for three days. My son hasn't been bothered by those bullies and he still goes to school with them.

PoiuyWired
03-24-2008, 05:14 PM
I have an eighteen year old son who was bullied in middle school. He took the bullying until he was slapped across the face three times by one of them in the cafeteria. He stood up, followed the bully onto the stage, and threw him off it. He immediately started pounding on the bully. A teacher stepped in and separated them but my son almost swung on him. The school started to suspend him until they found out the bully had started it. The bully was suspended and my son received lunch room duty for three days. My son hasn't been bothered by those bullies and he still goes to school with them.

QFE. Its not the suspension that stops the bully, but the physical negotiation taken on stage. Welcome to the real world. And I am glad it works out well in the end.

*Don*
03-24-2008, 07:59 PM
^^^^
Agreed.

P.S.
Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever bullied someone else when they were in school?

Rev7
03-24-2008, 08:27 PM
^
Well, I cerainly know that I try not to. I mean, everybody, yes I think EVERYBODY, at one point in there educational life, has made fun of, or laughed at someone because of a mistake. Everybody has done it before, IMO. It is human nature. I don't try to intentionally bully. I generally try to stop others from bullying people mainly because I HAVE been on the other side and I know what it feels like. Not good.

Q
03-24-2008, 11:19 PM
What really honks me off is that all the while I was being bullied I was being told by my parents and other adults in authority positions that fighing back was wrong. :roleyess:

I didn't believe it then, and I still don't believe it now.

Rev7
03-25-2008, 12:01 AM
^
I think that it is wrong. But that is just the way that I have been raised. I do honestly believe that it is wrong because the people in authority are put in authority for a reason. But, I also don't think that bullys are in authority positions. Sometimes the best thing to do is fight back but there are consequences to fighting back. You win some you lose some...

I have been told at the school that I am currently going to that if you do get in a fight, whether or not you started it, you still get in (equal?) trouble. If you try to stop the fight and you get hit, and you hit back in self-defence, I believe that you still get in 'trouble'.

Q
03-25-2008, 12:14 AM
That's ridiculous. People have a right to defend themselves; children and adults.

I can think of a few conspiracy theories that would explain such a policy, but I don't feel like donning my tin-foil hat ATM. ;)

Rev7
03-25-2008, 12:25 AM
^
Yep, I feel that if you are in self-defence mode, that it is fine to 'defend' yourself. I wouldn't care about the rules if I was in a situation like that. Besides, there really hasn't been any fights at the school that I attend. But I have only been there for a year....regardless it is a rule that has been...well...not spoken about. I got this information from a teacher that has been teaching for probably 32 years. Let alone, at this school for probably 15 or more years. He is the only teacher that has spoken about this rule. And numerous other things (not necessarily bad things) that really haven't been spoken freely about.

mur'phon
03-25-2008, 05:05 AM
I believe the main reason they punish you regardless of wether you fought in self defence is that it's often almost impossible for a teacher to know who was defending themselves. So what do you sugest teachers should do when the don't know who's guilty?

It might also have something to do with the fact that fighting back against a bully rarely works unless the victim and bully are about equally powerfull (not just strenght, friends, popularity etc also count).

JediRevan
03-25-2008, 09:50 AM
I have always taught my children to ignore name calling. I have also taught them not to strike another person unless that person swings at them first. My son heeded my lessons as I pointed out in my first post. Since that day, the bullies have left him alone. I also taught him to respect others as well as himself. He will not hit a girl or a woman. He has enlisted in the Navy and will go to boot camp sometime this summer. He will take with him the lessons his stepfather and I have taught him for the last seven years.

Sabretooth
04-04-2008, 04:16 AM
Was his name.. *DUN DUN DUN* SABRETOOTH?! :xp:
No, it wasn't. Besides, you know I don't bash skulls and have never taken martial arts. Different story, Ghostie. :p

Jae Onasi
04-04-2008, 02:22 PM
Bullying doesn't typically start with physical violence. It usually starts with non-violent, but sometimes equally destructive, things such as name-calling, spreading rumors etc. That's where adults and more mature students can intervene before it escalates.

If violence is not acceptable behavior, then we need to teach alternatives so kids don't take bad habits into adulthood. Also, in the part of the country I live in, guns (legal or not) are readily available, and kids are unfortunately bringing them to school. Some of the schools have metal detectors but that's not fool-proof. While I tell my kids they can use self-defense techniques to the point that allows them to get out of the situation, if I tell them they can meet violence with violence, they could end up getting shot. They might not get hit that day, but that doesn't stop the bully (or his fellow gang members) from using weapons another day.

The 'hit the bully back and he'll leave you alone' philosophy may work for some but it won't for all, and it has meant a death sentence for some kids due to increased gun access. There are much better ways of dealing with bullies than teaching Johnny how to throw a punch back at the them. It is imperative in an increasingly weaponized society that we teach kids ways to handle conflict in non-violent ways.