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i_shot_the_jedi
04-16-2008, 07:17 PM
I found it odd when searching through the most recent topic pages that there was no thread such as this (and I apologize if there is and I missed it...). So, here it is: what do you believe is Kreia's true identity?

There has been a great amount of discussion - much of it, I am sure, on these forums - over whether Kreia was indeed the fabled Jedi Master Arren Kae, mentioned briefly in Knights of the Old Republic II, and mother of the Handmaiden. On the little information we have to go on, the possibility is indeed quite likely - though not particularly strong.

Another popular theory is that Kreia is instead the similarly named Krynda Draay from the new comics. As they share numerous similarities, supporters of the theory believe that the story arc will conclude with the revelation that the two women are in fact the same person. However, this possibility is based on circumstantial evidence only, and nothing concrete linking the two has yet been revealed.

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/9279/kryndeiasz4.jpg
Krynda... possibly?

Or... has Kreia just always been Kreia, with only the one alter-ego: that of Darth Traya?

I am eager to hear your views.

JCarter426
04-16-2008, 07:34 PM
Kreia's Arren Kae. At least that's what I think. I don't think she's Krynda (because she can't possibly be her), but I wouldn't be surprised if that turns out to be.

i_shot_the_jedi
04-16-2008, 07:38 PM
Could you elaborate on why you don't think it could be Krynda please?

JCarter426
04-16-2008, 07:46 PM
Well, for one, Krynda's way too old. Second, Kreia isn't half Miraluka. Those are the major two, though there are some other reasons.

Son of Skywalker15
04-16-2008, 07:57 PM
Have you ever wondered why she could not see? Sure, she tells you that she didn't need to, but I don't recall her ever telling you how....

TKA-001
04-16-2008, 08:01 PM
Kreia is Kreia. I don't give a damn whether or not that was their original intention. If it was, then it's a good thing it was cut.

JCarter426
04-16-2008, 08:17 PM
Have you ever wondered why she could not see? Sure, she tells you that she didn't need to, but I don't recall her ever telling you how....

She specifically says that her eyes have atrophied (i.e. it's not because she's half Miraluka, because she isn't; and I doubt she'd refer to Visas as "the Miraluka" if she were one herself).

Achilles
04-16-2008, 09:03 PM
Arren Kae.

I used to think that people that advocated this had too much time on their hands, but after reading Scorchy's walkthrough, I'm a believer.

EDIT: btw, after finally finishing my final (?) playthrough of KotOR last night, I fired up TSL. I literally cracked up when Kreia comments on how my "stance" gave me away as a Jedi during the first dialog. Reminded me of another promenient character in the game that places a great deal of emphasis on "stance" and just happens to be an Echani.

Son of Skywalker15
04-16-2008, 09:12 PM
i.e. it's not because she's half Miraluka, because she isn't; and I doubt she'd refer to Visas as "the Miraluka" if she were one herself).

Now that you mention it, I do recall an instance where she states something about her eye wasting away and destroying, although they were unneeded to her.

I don't think she's a Miraluka; more specifically, Krynda Draay. I'm a believer in her being Kae.

Q
04-16-2008, 10:04 PM
I think that Avellone intended for Kreia to be Arren Kae. I have thought this since my second or third playthrough.

Krynda Draay appears to be yet another awkward EU retcon intended to be Kreia because some friggin' genius didn't like Avellone's idea and decided to replace it with something more, well, awkward. Complete with a perfectly illogical and yet convenient reason as to why Kreia is blind. :roleyess:

God, how I hate the EU. :swear:

Who writes this crap? Monkeys?

Son of Skywalker15
04-16-2008, 10:47 PM
I think that Avellone intended for Kreia to be Arren Kae. I have thought this since my second or third playthrough.

I got that impression too. However, mine actually stems from the interview on SW Knights a few months back with him. He declined to comment on it, but I think he did feel that connecting that would make a complete circle to the story.

JCarter426
04-16-2008, 11:00 PM
Arren Kae.

I used to think that people that advocated this had too much time on their hands, but after reading Scorchy's walkthrough, I'm a believer.

EDIT: btw, after finally finishing my final (?) playthrough of KotOR last night, I fired up TSL. I literally cracked up when Kreia comments on how my "stance" gave me away as a Jedi during the first dialog. Reminded me of another promenient character in the game that places a great deal of emphasis on "stance" and just happens to be an Echani.

Yup, same here. It's the little things like that give the theory credibility.

Well, that, and...

I got that impression too. However, mine actually stems from the interview on SW Knights a few months back with him. He declined to comment on it, but I think he did feel that connecting that would make a complete circle to the story.

"Can't comment, but good catch" were his exact words. That pretty much seals the deal for me that the development team at least intended for her to be Kae.

Totenkopf
04-16-2008, 11:16 PM
I thought that Kavar's reaction at the enclave tipped in that direction as well.

Rev7
04-17-2008, 12:51 AM
I voted Arren Kae.

I have had some discusion on this topic before on the chatbox. It just seems so likely that that is who 'Kreia' really is. It just makes sense. But then again it raises may questions. One thing that I have wondered about was the possible comment that the Exile makes on the Handmaiden's mother.

Something along the lines of the Handmaiden's mother being beautiful? That is interesting to me. Another thing that I wonder about is why 'Kreia' doesn't necessarily like the Handmaiden that much.

JCarter426
04-17-2008, 01:00 AM
Another thing that I wonder about is why 'Kreia' doesn't necessarily like the Handmaiden that much.

I always thought it was because Kreia blamed her for her exile, refusing to admit that it was because the students she taught were failures. Note that she claims Arren was exiled because of her child. Another reason would be that Brianna reminds Kreia of her past, of her failures, etc. Just a couple of theories for you. :)

i_shot_the_jedi
04-17-2008, 05:43 AM
Ok, I'm seeing an imbalance in opinion here so I'll lay out a bit more of the Krynda theory.

Well, for one, Krynda's way too old. Second, Kreia isn't half Miraluka. Those are the major two, though there are some other reasons... She specifically says that her eyes have atrophied (i.e. it's not because she's half Miraluka, because she isn't; and I doubt she'd refer to Visas as "the Miraluka" if she were one herself).

You raise two very good points, and the major failing points of the theory: no, Kreia does not label herself as a half-Miraluka and according to Chris Avellone, Kreia was born around 4000BBY: about the same year as Lucien Draay, Krynda's son.

Nevertheless, these arguments are not enormously strong and it would be unfair to disqualify this theory on two negative points.

Firstly, Kreia's age is debateable. Avellone himself stated "like Yoda, who knows", so despite his "guess" of 50 years old, Kreia's age can still be labelled a mystery. I've seen guesses of anything between 50 and 80, and thus it would not be much of a stretch for Kreia and Krynda to be the same age, even if they were not the same person.

Secondly, considering the rarity of Miraluka - let alone half-Miraluka - and Kreia's tendency to lie, she could just be protecting her identity. Or, perhaps, she is only telling half truths, and upon her discovery of Force Sight, Krynda allowed her already distinctive eyes to atrophy:

"If only my father's blood had been stronger! I would gladly have given my eyes—and yours—for you to be able to see what the Miraluka see!"

Not a strong possibility, but one that should be considered. You stated that you "doubt she'd refer to Visas as 'the Miraluka' if she were one herself"; to which I must point out that Krynda has done it herself already (see the above quote). Kreia distances herself from other characters by giving them relevant nicknames; thus, if you will accept that she distances herself from her apparent daughter by giving her the belittling moniker "servant of Atris", you should also accept it as likely that she would distance herself from a member of the other possible half of her species; "the Blind One", "the Miraluka".

Furthermore, both Krynda and Kreia share powers of prognostication, "failed Padawans" of the more violent vein and have links of some kind to Revan. Also, if I may be so bold, I would assume that upon Zayne Carrick's revelation of Krynda's crimes and the crimes of her "Jedi Covenant", that she will be exiled during the Mandalorian Wars as Kreia is known to have been and possibly, as my son pointed out in the wookieepedia article, become "consumed by guilt, [and] question the validity of her unorthodox beliefs".

I consider both theories just as strong as each other; though at the moment the Kae theory has the weight of evidence. I suppose that only with the conclusion of the final Knights of the Old Republic comic story arc will we be able to prove or disprove the latter.

Frankwright
04-17-2008, 06:33 AM
Your quote from Krynda Draay doesn't support your argument. She is using 'the Miraluka' to describe just that - the entire race collectively (if she was refering to a single individual as Kreia does, then it would be "what the Miraluka sees" rather than "what the Miraluka see". (If that's unclear, replace "the Miraluka" with Visas and see which version seems to be better) There is a drastic difference in meaning. One is refering to the group as a whole 'the Miraluka' and use of the noun is entirely appropriate as that is the group to which she refers. There is no easy way to refer to the Miraluka collectively otherwise. Kreia, on the other hand, uses "the Miraluka" in place of Visas' name. It is a pejorative term when Kreia uses, it is not in the quote you have provide from Krynda.

i_shot_the_jedi
04-17-2008, 06:59 AM
Well Frank, I may be wrong - I frequently am - and you've highlighted a point that doesn't fit very well, which I thank you for; but in both cases Krynda and Kreia distance themselves from the Miraluka race (never mind the grammar, I apologize but that wasn't the intention of my focus), considering themselves more Human than Miraluka: in the quote Krynda refers to the Miraluka rather distantly and clearly does not count herself as part of the race; Kreia likewise referring to Visas Marr as "the Miraluka" rather than, for example, "the other Miraluka".

Son of Skywalker15
04-17-2008, 10:40 AM
"Can't comment, but good catch" were his exact words. That pretty much seals the deal for me that the development team at least intended for her to be Kae.

Totally agree. Because the female Exile is canon, you don't get Brianna or entire back story, but the Master's reaction to her show that they knew her. In fact, they never say "Kreia" at all; Vrook/Kavar says, "You! I thought you died in the Mandalorian War." I have to play that scene over again, but the quote proves to me that she's not who she seems to be.

Also, Kae is mentioned in the female game. Mical tells you that she was Revan's Kae was the first, and last, trainer of Revan. Then, if you ask Kreia and have high influence, Kreia tells you she was Revan's first, and last, teacher.

So, while the intent was there, Kreia currently is "Kreia" until something comes and changes it officially.

I don't know why, but I'm finding it hard to remember all the little facts of Kotor II; perhaps I should re-play it soon, huh? :)

Jvstice
04-17-2008, 11:34 AM
Also, Kae is mentioned in the female game. Mical tells you that she was Revan's Kae was the first, and last, trainer of Revan. Then, if you ask Kreia and have high influence, Kreia tells you she was Revan's first, and last, teacher.


Of course Kreia's Kae but I don't expect any definitive statements for at least another year or so if they do it in the comic at all, and probably not until they get around to K3 as a game.

Son of Skywalker15
04-17-2008, 12:35 PM
Of course Kreia's Kae but I don't expect any definitive statements for at least another year or so if they do it in the comic at all, and probably not until they get around to K3 as a game

That was actually my next statement ;) Like I said, Kreia will be Kreia until its placed in the EU that she is Kae, using the alias Kreia. Chris isn't going to say it, even if I asked him in the EUC interview.

Many things have to be placed into the EU for Kotor II; we know them, but the SW characters do not. How's that for dramatic irony, huh?

i_shot_the_jedi
04-17-2008, 01:08 PM
I think that Avellone intended for Kreia to be Arren Kae. I have thought this since my second or third playthrough.

Krynda Draay appears to be yet another awkward EU ret-con intended to be Kreia because some friggin' genius didn't like Avellone's idea and decided to replace it with something more, well, awkward. Complete with a perfectly illogical reason as to why Kreia is blind.

God, how I hate the EU.

Who writes this crap? Monkeys?

Yes, retcons are irritating; though with this example, should Kreia be revealed to be Krynda Draay, it could not be considered a retcon as such as we do not know for sure what the official stance was in the first place...

Nevertheless, you raise a good point: perhaps Kae was intended to be Kreia originally, as many posters have stated, but that Krynda has since assumed the role because Kae's backstory was never fully completed.

Also, Kae is mentioned in the female game. Mical tells you that she was Revan's Kae was the first, and last, trainer of Revan. Then, if you ask Kreia and have high influence, Kreia tells you she was Revan's first, and last, teacher.

These are the exact quotes for reference:

"As a Padawan, Revan was trained by Master Kae, before she was exiled. Strange, I do not recall who Revan's master was after that. And it is said that he went to his first - and final - master to learn how to leave the order entirely, as she had."
"He came to me, yes. Both before and after, before Revan knew himself. And after, in the times when Revan was coming into his own and learning he was more than he had been told. At one time, Revan was my Padawan. In times past, long ago. But Revan, when he had learned all he could, had other masters... that fool Zhar, and other Jedi on other planets. He learned from each. But in the end, he turned back to me. When he realized there was nothing more to be learned from the Jedi - except how one could leave them forever."

I must point out that at no point does Mical explicitly state that Kae is Kreia or that Kae was Revan's first teacher (only that he studied under her as a Padawan); and Kreia herself only states that she was the "first and final" master. This makes it all rather convoluted, and only through deduction can we assume that Mical is talking about the same person - Kreia - throughout. This is therefore only circumstantial evidence, and I feel that you are thus jumping to conclusions when the official word has only been a vague statement of dismissal.

JCarter426
04-17-2008, 02:00 PM
Yes it's circumstantial--the circumstance being that they were the only two we know of that trained Revan as a padawan, and that he returned to both of them afterwards. ;)


And making Kreia Krynda is still a retcon, because there are continuity conflicts.

i_shot_the_jedi
04-17-2008, 03:11 PM
Yes it's circumstantial--the circumstance being that they were the only two we know of that trained Revan as a padawan

The statement "Strange, I do not recall who Revan's master was after that" must indicate that he had at least two masters (which would be impossible in your reasoning of Kae and Kreia therefore being the same person, and there being no others). Therefore, we must come to the alternative conclusion that Revan was also taught as a Padawan (rather than a Knight) by the "other masters" Kreia mentioned, including Dorak and Zhar Lestin. You cannot have it both ways.

...and that he returned to both of them afterwards. ;)

As I have stated above, Mical is extremely vague and it cannot be said for sure whether he means Arren Kae or Kreia as Kreia when he states "And it is said that he went to his first - and final - master to learn how to leave the order entirely, as she had". I believe we should again focus on the line "Strange, I do not recall who Revan's master was after that". Had this line not been included, the master he refers to would quite clearly have been Arren Kae and that would have been that. However, the way he speaks and his further beginning a new line with that great story-opener "it is said..." indicate that he may be, you could say, going off on a tangent. At no point, sir, does he say "Kae was Revan's first master", and thus this is not a strong enough piece of evidence to proove that Kreia is Arren Kae, especially if it is the very closest you can get to linking the two.

Again, I would like to state that I could be wrong and you absolutely right, and this is why I find that the Arren Kae theory still holds a lot of water. Nevertheless, without total confirmation or proper proof, you cannot state it to be as such; especially considering that as of yet there has been no outcome regarding Krynda.

EDIT: Hang on, it appears that my sources may not have been reliable as I had once thought, and I apologize. I'll keep the above comments for the time being until I can get confirmation. This, it appears, is another version of what Mical said:

Revan had many Masters. Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before she left for the wars. Towards the end of her training, she sought out many to learn techniques. It is said that s/he returned to her first Master at the end of his/her training, in order to learn how s/he might best leave the order.

Nevertheless, in this version, I suppose I could allege that Master Kae is not even inferred to be the first master, being the last in the list. I would greatly appreciate verification of the right version before I go further in arguing the wrong quote, heh...

And making Kreia Krynda is still a retcon, because there are continuity conflicts.

Could you enlighten me please?

Astor
04-17-2008, 05:05 PM
Wow... those are both some very interesting arguments, gents. But something just feels 'right' about Kae and Kreia being one and the same, I can't explain why, but it seems to make sense.

But, as I said, I'm not sure why.

JCarter426
04-17-2008, 05:38 PM
Nevertheless, in this version, I suppose I could allege that Master Kae is not even inferred to be the first master, being the last in the list. I would greatly appreciate verification of the right version before I go further in arguing the wrong quote, heh...

Yes, I see the point. However, Mical does mention that Kae taught Revan as a padawan, implying that she was one of his first masters. Kreia also claims to have taught Revan as a padawan, and that he returned to her before going off to the Mandalorian Wars.

But you're right, it's just circumstantial.

Could you enlighten me please?

Well, the Miraluka thing, her age, the fact that Krynda never taught Revan (doesn't look that way, anyhow)...lots things.

i_shot_the_jedi
04-17-2008, 07:09 PM
Wow... those are both some very interesting arguments, gents. But something just feels 'right' about Kae and Kreia being one and the same, I can't explain why, but it seems to make sense.

But, as I said, I'm not sure why.

Perhaps because you've played Knights of the Old Republic II but haven't read the comics; so you feel slightly more biased towards the Kae argument having seen all of the Kae evidence, and little of the Krynda Draay evidence.

Well, the Miraluka thing, her age, the fact that Krynda never taught Revan (doesn't look that way, anyhow)...lots things.

Similarly, I would assume that you have not seen everything either. Let's confront these apparent issues:

Age: You may have noticed that Krynda Draay (see here (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Krynda_Draay)) appears younger than Kreia does, with far less creases and wrinkles (I doubt it's to do with wrinkle cream). You may also have noticed the image at the top of the page is a combination of a Kreia picture and the Krynda Draay picture in the Wookieepedia article. Now, I'm sure more wrinkles had to be put onto that Krynda Draay face than taken off. With this and Kreia's unknown age in mind, it doesn't require a retcon to make the pieces fit.

Miraluka: Neither Krynda nor Kreia had Force Sight to begin with; this much is plain. Both women, however, highly value the power and have an intense wish to use it. Let us suppose that upon acquisition of the power, Krynda used it to its full extent, like her Miraluka father, and allowed the Human eyes she had once used to atrophy and fade from a bright blue to a pale, milky white. This is no retcon or any major leap of faith - it is perfectly plausible, and fits with all previously established lore.

Revan: I agree with you; as of yet there has been no direct evidence that Krynda taught Revan. However, according to Alec Squinquargesimus, also known as Malak: "Our master [Revan] is an acquaintance of your Master Lucien". How this came to be, I can only guess, though it certainly links Revan to Krynda through her son.

Achilles
04-17-2008, 07:19 PM
Perhaps because you've played Knights of the Old Republic II but haven't read the comics; so you feel slightly more biased towards the Kae argument having seen all of the Kae evidence, and little of the Krynda Draay evidence. Okay, fair enough. But help me out with this part:

Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II - The Sith Lords was released in December 2004
The Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic comic book series launched in January 2006

How did the game developer know to include a comic book character that didn't even exist for more than another year (relative development times nonwithstanding)? Pardon my saying so, but I don't see how this is any thing other than a show-stopper for that the Krynda Draay hypothesis.

JCarter426
04-17-2008, 07:22 PM
Age: You may have noticed that Krynda Draay (see here (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Krynda_Draay)) appears younger than Kreia does, with far less creases and wrinkles (I doubt it's to do with wrinkle cream). You may also have noticed the image at the top of the page is a combination of a Kreia picture and the Krynda Draay picture in the Wookieepedia article. Now, I'm sure more wrinkles had to be put onto that Krynda Draay face than taken off. With this and Kreia's unknown age in mind, it doesn't require a retcon to make the pieces fit.

Yes, I understand that. However, Krynda was married with a son during the Great Sith War, which would put her at around 50-65 during the comics, and around 60-75 at the time of KOTOR 2. According to statements made by Mr Avellone, Kreia is about 50 during K2. Now, his statements aren't 100% canon, no. But still, when one work goes against the intent of another (in this case, the making a character 10-25 years older than originally intended), that's a retcon.

Miraluka: Neither Krynda nor Kreia had Force Sight to begin with; this much is plain. Both women, however, highly value the power and have an intense wish to use it. Let us suppose that upon acquisition of the power, Krynda used it to its full extent, like her Miraluka father, and allowed the Human eyes she had once used to atrophy and fade from a bright blue to a pale, milky white. This is no retcon or any major leap of faith - it is perfectly plausible, and fits with all previously established lore.

Krynda didn't originally have Force sight? Didn't know that; I missed one volume (waiting for the TPB...). Still, Kreia's remarks about Visas (calling her "the Miraluka") seem odd if she herself is one (or half of one). So again, Krynda being Kreia doesn't go against canon, but it goes against the developers' intent--another retcon.

Revan: I agree with you; as of yet there has been no direct evidence that Krynda taught Revan. However, according to Alec Squinquargesimus, also known as Malak: "Our master [Revan] is an acquaintance of your Master Lucien". How this came to be, I can only guess, though it certainly links Revan to Krynda through her son.

Yes, there certainly is some connection between the two. Still, as far as we know Krynda never taught Revan as a padawan. It is explicitly stated in K2 that Kreia did. So this is actually the biggest area that would have to be retconned.

i_shot_the_jedi
04-17-2008, 08:26 PM
How did the game developer know to include a comic book character that didn't even exist for more than another year (relative development times nonwithstanding)? Pardon my saying so, but I don't see how this is any thing other than a show-stopper for that the Krynda Draay hypothesis.

Achilles my friend, I do not think you have noticed the obvious: Krynda Draay has quite possibly been fabricated to fit around the Kreia story; as Alec was fabricated to become the young Malak. I cannot substantiate my claim, but I can theorise that it is quite possibly true.

Yes, I understand that. However, Krynda was married with a son during the Great Sith War, which would put her at around 50-65 during the comics, and around 60-75 at the time of KOTOR 2. According to statements made by Mr Avellone, Kreia is about 50 during K2. Now, his statements aren't 100% canon, no. But still, when one work goes against the intent of another (in this case, the making a character 10-25 years older than originally intended), that's a retcon.

Not at all; especially when he contradicts himself with the phrase "like Yoda, who knows?" With this statement, he opened up a whole new can of worms. 50 is is "guess", not his assertion, and perfectly flexible.

Krynda didn't originally have Force sight? Didn't know that; I missed one volume (waiting for the TPB...). Still, Kreia's remarks about Visas (calling her "the Miraluka") seem odd if she herself is one (or half of one). So again, Krynda being Kreia doesn't go against canon, but it goes against the developers' intent--another retcon.

As I mentioned before, Krynda once stated:

"If only my father's blood had been stronger! I would gladly have given my eyes—and yours—for you to be able to see what the Miraluka see!"

Edit: I am forever let down by my atrocious lack of observation. I apologize. Nevertheless, Jolly Boots makes some good points below.

Again, I must suggest most strongly that the moniker "the Miraluka" (as well as "the blinded one" or "the seer") is no different to those she uses for the other party members: Atton as "the fool", Mical as the "tiny Jedi", Brianna as the "servant of Atris", Mira as "the huntress", T3-M4, HK-47, and G0-T0 all as "machines", Hanharr as "the beast", and Bao-Dur as "the alien". Also, did Krynda, in my quote, ever say "see what my people see"? "The Miraluka" is not unusual, and there is no evidence that any of this is against the developers' intent: Kreia is an extraordinarily deep character who enjoys alienating others.

Yes, there certainly is some connection between the two. Still, as far as we know Krynda never taught Revan as a padawan. It is explicitly stated in K2 that Kreia did. So this is actually the biggest area that would have to be retconned.

Your argument is illogical: you premise that if X is not true at present, then it never will be. At some point, if we recieve the information that of Krynda's many apprentices, Revan was one of them, this does not change previously established information about Krynda or Kreia, therefore it is not a retcon: it is just filling in the gaps in history. You cannot retcon "intentions".

JCarter426
04-17-2008, 08:57 PM
She did not have Force Sight, yet she would have given her eyes to have it.

Er...she did have Force sight. She's saying there that Lucien doesn't, and that she would have given her eyes in order to give him the gift of Force sight. But she still does have it through her Miraluka blood, which is not how Kreia got it.


Your argument is illogical: you premise that if X is not true at present, then it never will be. I put it to you that this does not change previously established information, therefore it is not a retcon: it is just filling in the gaps in history.

I'm not saying that at all. What I said was that making Krynda Kreia would cause continuity errors, and require a retcon in order to fix those errors, one reason being that as far as we know, Krynda has not taught Revan, while Kreia has. Sure, you could argue away Kreia's age and her Force sight, but that doesn't change the fact that she taught Revan as a padawan, while Krynda did not. Thus, a retcon is in order if Krynda were to become Kreia, to explain this error.

Also, I'm not Krynda. :p

jonathan7
04-17-2008, 09:36 PM
God, how I hate the EU. :swear:

Who writes this crap? Monkeys?

QFT

I'm not going to put forward anything those in favour of Kae being Kreia have, but suffice to say I think the two people are one and the same.

Achilles my friend, I do not think you have noticed the obvious: Krynda Draay has quite possibly been fabricated to fit around the Kreia story; as Alec was fabricated to become the young Malak. I cannot substantiate my claim, but I can theorise that it is quite possibly true.

THis seems to me to be a big reason, as to whu EU writers should be ignored... especially when Cannon states Revan and Malak DIDN'T change their names after become Jedi.

Jolly Boots
04-17-2008, 11:44 PM
Er...she did have Force sight. She's saying there that Lucien doesn't, and that she would have given her eyes in order to give him the gift of Force sight. But she still does have it through her Miraluka blood, which is not how Kreia got it.

Actually, Kreia never actually states that she had to learn the ability. The closest thing she says is that she refuses to rely on actual sight, and obviously she has the ability to see both, a trait that Krynda says she has herself.


But it was my destiny to have both sight and second sight.



THis seems to me to be a big reason, as to whu EU writers should be ignored... especially when Cannon states Revan and Malak DIDN'T change their names after become Jedi.
Actually, no specific source states that they didn't change their name. That was just what it appeared to be to the fans.

To throw more fuel onto the fire, Kreia has some very interesting lines about "mating" Miralukas.

And do not mate with her. Whatever you may feel, whatever... urges consume you, do not let them control you. Such a union would breed... difficulties.
Kreia says it as if she knows well (okay, like she does everything else but still) Lucien was described as being a "difficult" birth in which prevented Krynda from serving in the Sith War.

Furthermore, to be perfectly fair, Kreia doesn't even state that she's completely human either. So that point is thrown out. Her age, already argued that Avellone never gave a specific age and was vague to the point of it being on purpose. As for Revan, well, no one EVER names Kreia. The only time Kreia is named is by the party members, Sion and a piece of cut dialog from Lonna Vash. Mical can't recall Kreia and so on...Lucien and Revan were also, as stated before, friends (or at least knew each other pretty well )

Yes. It's obvious Krynda was invented by John Jackson Miller and not Avellone. But intentions (cut content), it's not canon unless made otherwise by another source. Avellone may have intended for Kreia to be Arren Kae but that fact didn't make it in so it's not canon and thus anyone who is playing around with the histories of these characters can basically ignore it. It's not a very nice thing to do, for writers to fiddle around with another's character and ignore intentions but I can say that I don't like Arren = Kreia either so each to his own. If Krynda does becoming Kreia, it's not a recon. To me, it's actually pretty neat, especially if Sion ends up being Lucien Draay, considering his connection to a Sion lookalike (Haazen). As well as Luciens jealousy of the Miraluka/Covenant members hogging the attention from his mother, a fact which plays in KOTOR between Sion and the Exile. Should also note that Lucien has a bit of a problem with the Revanchist in Daze of Hate, calling him a "so-called Master" who doesn't speak for the Order. Lucien may merely have a problem with Revan going off against the Order but it can be argued that there is a bit of resentment there - possibly since he is considered his mothers greatest student?

Corinthian
04-17-2008, 11:54 PM
Arren Kae frankly fits the mold much better. It's pretty subtle, though.

1: Arren Kae and Kreia are both known to have been Revan's masters. Both were Jedi, but left the Order.

2: Atton suggests that Kreia was quite attractive in the past but hard living wore her down. Arren Kae is often described as being beautiful.

3: Arren Kae is known to be the mother of the Handmaiden, and Handmaiden states that she honors the face of her mother, the difference being a pair of small braids. Kreia also has braids. Small, but possibly significant.

4: The Jedi Masters, when Kreia shows herself, say that they thought she died during the Mandalorian Wars. This was also believed to have been the fate of Arren Kae.

Subtle cluing, but given that it's in TSL rather than in some Comic, I'm more inclined to believe it.

Q
04-18-2008, 12:28 AM
^^^
Yeah, I remember that comment from Atton after leaving Peragus. He apparently knew her true identity.

He could have known from his service in the war, or as a Sith Assassin, or both, but he definitely knew who she was.

Why couldn't they have just gone with Avellone's original idea? Is it some sort of sick punishment for Obsidian's failure to properly finish the game in 13 months?

Jolly Boots
04-18-2008, 01:00 AM
Why couldn't they have just gone with Avellone's original idea? Is it some sort of sick punishment for Obsidian's failure to properly finish the game in 13 months?
There are two reasons I can imagine. One is that we don't know if it actually was Avellone's original idea. It may have happened accidentally and he rolled with it, toying with the fans. And two, maybe JJM (and/or Lucas) doesn't like the idea (and neither do I). That's the way a universe written by several writers works.

But yeah. It kinda is punishment since if they were able to finish it then maybe it would have worked it's way in and thus JJM can't do what he's playing now in the same way. He'd have to change the names around and reveal Arren Kae sooner then later. That or create a new character from scratch, which may be the case and thus this all just pointless speculation on our part.

I quote the editor at Lucas Licensing:

"There's no absolute confirmation or denial at this point. Remember that anything authors speculate about, or anyone else for that matter, is not canon until it is in print. Anything can, and often does, change as stories develop."

Rev7
04-18-2008, 01:08 AM
I always thought it was because Kreia blamed her for her exile, refusing to admit that it was because the students she taught were failures. Note that she claims Arren was exiled because of her child. Another reason would be that Brianna reminds Kreia of her past, of her failures, etc. Just a couple of theories for you.
Something like that came into my mind. Just wanted some more clarifacation, and someone else's opinion, so with that said, Thanks JCarter!

One question that I has recently come up with me is that at the end of the game Kreia makes a peculiar comment (or at least in my opinion). It goes along the lines of the Exile being the greatest pupil (student) that she has ever trained. However, wasn't Revan Kreia's apprentice?

Q
04-18-2008, 01:19 AM
I think that in Kreia's eyes, the Exile is greater than Revan for his/her ability to survive without the Force. I don't think that Revan could do that.
One is that we don't know if it actually was Avellone's original idea. It may have happened accidentally and he rolled with it, toying with the fans.
I find this unlikely in the face of all of the hints that the player is given throughout KotOR2.

Achilles
04-18-2008, 01:34 AM
Achilles my friend, I do not think you have noticed the obvious: Krynda Draay has quite possibly been fabricated to fit around the Kreia story; as Alec was fabricated to become the young Malak. I cannot substantiate my claim, but I can theorise that it is quite possibly true. How is it "obvious" if you yourself cannot substantiate it? Clearly it was Avellone's vision at work here. If you want to show that the comic came along after the fact and that it should be given more consideration than the existing work, then that is your claim to prove, not mine or anyone else's.

JCarter426
04-18-2008, 01:34 AM
Something like that came into my mind. Just wanted some more clarifacation, and someone else's opinion, so with that said, Thanks JCarter!

No problem. :)

One question that I has recently come up with me is that at the end of the game Kreia makes a peculiar comment (or at least in my opinion). It goes along the lines of the Exile being the greatest pupil (student) that she has ever trained. However, wasn't Revan Kreia's apprentice?

Indeed. Kreia actually thought the Exile was better (which must be a definite truth, if we follow that unwritten rule that the sequel's protagonist must be bigger and badder ;)). Kreia also calls Revan a failure if the Exile falls to the dark side and kills the four masters. What was the exact quote...? Ah, here it is:

All I have ever trained have been failures to them, students who went to fight the Mandalorians, who fell to the dark side, who abandoned their training.

This I find most fascinating.

Yeah, I remember that comment from Atton after leaving Peragus. He apparently knew her true identity.

He could have known from his service in the war, or as a Sith Assassin, or both, but he definitely knew who she was.

Never thought of that...I suppose it's possible. I just thought Atton was desperate. :xp:

i_shot_the_jedi
04-18-2008, 05:16 AM
How did the game developer know to include a comic book character that didn't even exist for more than another year (relative development times nonwithstanding)? Pardon my saying so, but I don't see how this is any thing other than a show-stopper for that the Krynda Draay hypothesis.
How is it "obvious" if you yourself cannot substantiate it? Clearly it was Avellone's vision at work here. If you want to show that the comic came along after the fact and that it should be given more consideration than the existing work, then that is your claim to prove, not mine or anyone else's.

What you have been trying to infer - and please forgive me if I am wrong, but this is how I am interpreting it - is that the Krynda Draay theory must have been the plan all along, or it could not possibly be true. I contend that this is not the only logical conclusion: is it not possible to think that the game developers created a character with very little backstory, and the comic book writers are just filling in the enormous gap?

In my belief both theories should be given equal consideration. The Knights of the Old Republic comics are presently actively unfolding a storyline prequel to the games that may reveal many things that we did not yet know about characters in the games (I can't remember John Jackson Miller's exact quote, but I'll try to find it); thus it is difficult to argue that I am certainly wrong until Jack Johnson Miller has wrapped up all loose ends in the last comic of the series. However, the Arren Kae argument, for all its strengths, is entirely static. There have been no further advances to the Arren Kae storyline in these last four years. My argument is that we look to what is happening at this present time, as well as what has happened in the past, and only come to a final conclusion when either theory has been substantiated.

Sir, I am simply stating that my theory is a tenable possibility; not a hard fact, though I can and have presented strong evidence for why it has every right to be on this page as the previous theory.

To turn it around, how can you substantiate that there was ever "Avellone's vision at work here"? You cannot, and you cannot substantiate your theory any more than I can mine. Please note, my friend, that I am not at any point suggesting that the Arren Kae theory is wrong, only that it could be wrong and that there also may be other possibilities.

Astor
04-18-2008, 05:24 AM
I contend that this is not the only logical conclusion: is it not possible to think that the game developers created a character with very little backstory, and the comic book writers are just filling in the enormous gap?

If that was the case, how come she (Dray) was never mentioned in the game? At least Kae was mentioned.

I'm sorry, but now it seems that you're making suppositions to fit your own theory. I'm not bashing you, but i'm finding it hard to understand.

i_shot_the_jedi
04-18-2008, 05:57 AM
I sincerely apologize if I am lacking in clarity. I'll put it this way: We start with Revan. The comic book writers, several years later, fill in his background as "The Revanchist" and tell us that this title is what the name "Revan" is derived from. In a similar way, we are told that "Malak" is the assumed name of Alek Squinquargesimus.

My argument is that there is a fairly good likelihood that the same will happen for the character of Kreia, and that only because Kreia was designed with very little backstory have the comic writers created one which they intend to mold round her existing story. You are entirely correct: Krynda Draay was never mentioned in game, but neither was Kreia's true identity; which has as of yet only been surmised to be Arren Kae, but not proven. This is exactly why Kreia could very possibly be Krynda Draay without any continuity problems.

luckyariot
04-18-2008, 07:44 AM
I believe that Kae was the original plan for Kriea's identity (it really leans that way in the dialouge's subtle undercurrents) but that it wasn't cemented really, so there is an excellent chance that Krynda will turn out to be Kreia (I wouldn't be shocked anyway, same sort of manipulative nature hinted at).

Has anyone noticed the sounds Krynda and Traya combine to form Kreia? Maybe a sort of combination between the two major elements of her life kind-of thing? Seems Kreia-ish.

But, I agree that it isn't really confirmed 'til we see it laid out for us (probably in print). Oh, and just because the comic is EU, doesn't make it horrible-quality. The games are EU too, and no one on this board can accuse them of being terrible... not counting the cuts.

Ctrl Alt Del
04-18-2008, 10:05 AM
Of course, if Avellone planned that Kreia would be someone aforementioned, that would be Kae and not Krynda, since the last one was just established on the comics.

i_shot_the_jedi
04-18-2008, 01:44 PM
To be frank, I don't think Avellone really has a great degree of influence on further developing the story as his contract with LucasArts was terminated when Obsidian released the game (probably the reason why he was not allowed to disclose any more than "good catch" when it came to the Arren/Kreia theory).

I suppose it's all down to current writers now: if LucasArts decide they want to make the Kae/Kreia theory official in a future publication, then they will, but I doubt they'll consult Avellone first.

Ctrl Alt Del
04-18-2008, 02:11 PM
To be frank, I don't think Avellone really has a great degree of influence on further developing the story as his contract with LucasArts was terminated when Obsidian released the game (probably the reason why he was not allowed to disclose any more than "good catch" when it came to the Arren/Kreia theory).
I completely agree. But as to why would people over at LA and Darkhorse want to chose/create someone else to be Kreia instead of anything Avellone might had especially created is unknown to me. I mean, why bother?

adamqd
04-18-2008, 02:39 PM
To be honest, 99.9% of the games era EU is related to K1 (Which makes sense, as a lot is pre Mando wars) but Krynda Draay fought in the sith war and then seemed to put her time in to the Covenant (all Seers), and up to now, there seems to be no link between the covenant and the Revanchist, apart from an acknowledgment between Lucian and the Revanchist at the Coruscant Temple. Apart from Source books re-telling the Game Story, she only appears in TSL, so Your guess is as good as mine... I personally dont wish to see her in the comics (IMO)

Q
04-18-2008, 03:12 PM
^^^
Neither do I, as it would probably undermine the quality of one of the greatest characters in video game history, as well as Star Wars history in general.

That's why I'm so sensitive about this. Kreia's character is awesome as-is, and they need to leave her alone.

Achilles
04-18-2008, 03:18 PM
What you have been trying to infer - and please forgive me if I am wrong, but this is how I am interpreting it - is that the Krynda Draay theory must have been the plan all along, or it could not possibly be true. Yep. In order for Chris Avellone and Obsidian Entertainment to create a game character that is supposed to be Krynda Draay, they had to have known about her in the first place. Considering the juxtaposition of the comic in relation to the game, I submit that this is rather unlikely.

I contend that this is not the only logical conclusion: is it not possible to think that the game developers created a character with very little backstory, and the comic book writers are just filling in the enormous gap?I contend that there isn't a lack of backstory at all. Obsidian gave us all the pieces and trusted the player to be able to put them together. The comic book writers might be trying to exploit what they percieve to be "an enormous gap" to bastardize the original artist's work and then congratulate themselves on how clever they are, but that wouldn't impress me very much.

*jumps head to next post to continue point*

I sincerely apologize if I am lacking in clarity. I'll put it this way: We start with Revan. The comic book writers, several years later, fill in his background as "The Revanchist" and tell us that this title is what the name "Revan" is derived from. In a similar way, we are told that "Malak" is the assumed name of Alek Squinquargesimus. Except that Revan's story had to be open in the game because the player was ultimately responsible for Revan's path in the game. In other words, Revan's story can be a blank slate because there was no fixed path for him in the game. This is not the case for Kreia.

*jumps back to first post*

In my belief both theories should be given equal consideration. Only so far that is reasonable to do so. Because two (or more) ideas exist does not mean that they should be considered equal, especially if one makes more sense than the other.

The Knights of the Old Republic comics are presently actively unfolding a storyline prequel to the games that may reveal many things that we did not yet know about characters in the games (I can't remember John Jackson Miller's exact quote, but I'll try to find it); thus it is difficult to argue that I am certainly wrong until Jack Johnson Miller has wrapped up all loose ends in the last comic of the series. Unless Jack Johnson Miller collaborated with Chris Avellone to create Kreia's character when Obsidian was developing the game, I don't see how his input matters in the slightest. If he wants to bastardize someone else's work and LucasArts wants to sign off on it, then that is what it is. However what it is not is the original artist's work. You seem to be arguing that it should be considered as such.

However, the Arren Kae argument, for all its strengths, is entirely static. There have been no further advances to the Arren Kae storyline in these last four years. Indeed because the scope of the character is limited to the game. If someone else is now ripping off that character to sell some comic books, then there's very little I can do about that, but that doesn't mean that Chris Avellone didn't write the game with Kreia and Master Kae being the same person.

My argument is that we look to what is happening at this present time, as well as what has happened in the past, and only come to a final conclusion when either theory has been substantiated. Nope. As you pointed out above, the game is static. The story is over for now. The body is cold and the clues have all been gathered. Chris Avellone's story is complete (unless KotOR3 happens *fingers crossed*).

Sir, I am simply stating that my theory is a tenable possibility; not a hard fact, though I can and have presented strong evidence for why it has every right to be on this page as the previous theory. I appreciate that this is your position, however I still disagree for the reasons stated above.

To turn it around, how can you substantiate that there was ever "Avellone's vision at work here"? You cannot, and you cannot substantiate your theory any more than I can mine. Huh? He wrote the story didn't he? :confused:

Please note, my friend, that I am not at any point suggesting that the Arren Kae theory is wrong, only that it could be wrong and that there also may be other possibilities.Yes, I concede that it is entirely possible that Chris Avellone did not write The Sith Lords with Kreia as Master Kae. The "circumstantial" evidence does tend to support that he did, however you are correct in that there is no smoking gun (I guess Avellone anticipated an audience that didn't need to have things spoon fed to them). However that does not mean that alternate theories automatically "win" or deserve to have equal consideration.

*back to your second post which I started to respond to earlier*

My argument is that there is a fairly good likelihood that the same will happen for the character of Kreia, and that only because Kreia was designed with very little backstory have the comic writers created one which they intend to mold round her existing story.That's what the comic book writers are doing. Completely separate matter from what the original author did or did not intend for the character.

You are entirely correct: Krynda Draay was never mentioned in game, but neither was Kreia's true identity; which has as of yet only been surmised to be Arren Kae, but not proven. This is exactly why Kreia could very possibly be Krynda Draay without any continuity problems.Except that Krynda Draay was never mentioned in the game, that Kreia was written as a human in the game, etc, etc.

To be frank, I don't think Avellone really has a great degree of influence on further developing the story as his contract with LucasArts was terminated when Obsidian released the game (probably the reason why he was not allowed to disclose any more than "good catch" when it came to the Arren/Kreia theory).

I suppose it's all down to current writers now: if LucasArts decide they want to make the Kae/Kreia theory official in a future publication, then they will, but I doubt they'll consult Avellone first.The problem that we're having sir, is that you seem more concerned about LucasArts canon than the Knights of the Old Republic story. I very much see where you are coming from, however that does not mean that I agree with it. The artistic integrity of Avellone's story (subject to debate, I know) trumps Luca$' desire to sell more comic books. Sorry.

Ctrl Alt Del
04-18-2008, 06:21 PM
Unless Jack Johnson Miller collaborated with Chris Avellone to create Kreia's character when Obsidian was developing the game, I don't see how his input matters in the slightest. If he wants to bastardize someone else's work and LucasArts wants to sign off on it, then that is what it is. However what it is not is the original artist's work. You seem to be arguing that it should be considered as such.
Well, "bastardizing", as you say, would only be classified as such if Avellone intended Kreia to be Kae to start with. A fact we can probably die without knowing.

Achilles
04-18-2008, 07:46 PM
Well, "bastardizing", as you say, would only be classified as such if Avellone intended Kreia to be Kae to start with. A fact we can probably die without knowing. Perhaps "hijack" would have been a better word choice then.

SilentScope001
04-18-2008, 10:45 PM
Whenever I hear about Kae, I always see a young hippie Jedi.

That is NOT how I see Kreia. And even if Kreia=Kae, Kreia's personality is so twisted from that of Kae that such a revelation really wouldn't serve the story.

Kreia is an old manlipuative hag, with lots of fans, and even more enemies. Let leave it that way.

Sylwester
04-19-2008, 07:24 AM
If you read carefuly http://fromearth.net/LetsPlay/KOTOR%202/Update%2058/index.html than it's obviously who Kreia once was :)

i_shot_the_jedi
04-19-2008, 08:24 AM
I contend that there isn't a lack of backstory at all. Obsidian gave us all the pieces and trusted the player to be able to put them together. The comic book writers might be trying to exploit what they percieve to be "an enormous gap" to bastardize the original artist's work and then congratulate themselves on how clever they are, but that wouldn't impress me very much.

A fascinating theory, and I'm glad you brought it to my attention.

However, I should suggest that Obsidian never really gave us all the pieces, at least not all at once. The information given to us by the Handmaiden is unavailable to a female Exile, so a player can play through the entire game without ever picking up the idea that Kreia may be Master Kae. This would suggest that if it ever existed, the Kreia/Kae storyline has mostly become cut content.

It may have been that Avellone intended the Handmaiden to play a larger part in both male and female Exile storylines - and he may have had a Revanesque revalation cutscene planned too - but due to time constraints, we're only left with vague clues (44 vaguely linking pictures on Scorchy's walkthrough does not have much oomph) to an incomplete (and possibly non-existant) picture.

Sir, furthermore you have been basing your argument on the premise that a couple of coincidences prove that Chris Avellone most certainly always intended Arren Kae to be Kreia. However, I cannot accept this without hearing it from Avellone himself, so I must advocate all possible theories until we hear word from LucasArts.

Nevertheless, thank you for giving me such an excellent debate and a theory I will remember when I next hear word on the subject. I, as you, hope they at least tell us some time soon, either way.

Achilles
04-19-2008, 10:02 AM
A fascinating theory, and I'm glad you brought it to my attention. Glad I could help.

However, I should suggest that Obsidian never really gave us all the pieces, at least not all at once. Right (re: all at once), hence my comment about Obsidian trusting their audience not to need to have everything spoon fed to them. Scorchy got it. A few others here seem to have got it too. Some others haven't but I think that's to be expected.

The information given to us by the Handmaiden is unavailable to a female Exile, so a player can play through the entire game without ever picking up the idea that Kreia may be Master Kae. Indeed, someone that only played as a female Exile would not get part of the story, just as someone who only played male, light side, dark side, etc. I'm not sure how that makes your case though.

This would suggest that if it ever existed, the Kreia/Kae storyline has mostly become cut content. Which would imply that the pieces we do have are somehow insufficient. And indeed for someone wishing to have a smoking gun or spoon-fed plot points that very well seem like reality.

It may have been that Avellone intended the Handmaiden to play a larger part in both male and female Exile storylines - and he may have had a Revanesque revalation cutscene planned too - but due to time constraints, we're only left with vague clues (44 vaguely linking pictures on Scorchy's walkthrough does not have much oomph) to an incomplete (and possibly non-existant) picture. Indeed, this is one possibility. Another is that the writer, in an effort to increase replay value (one of the stated objectives of the developer, IIRC), made it so that the player would need to play the game more than once from different angles to get all the various pieces necessary to put the entire story together.

Really sir, since the Kreia/Kae thing is more "nuance" than "major plot point" does it really need a 5 minute exposition cut scene? Since Kae being Handmaiden's mother would only have significance if Handmaiden was around, wouldn't it make sense to emphasize that during the male storyline? It's becoming more and more obvious that you simply like this other theory better (even though it's significantly more convoluted) and as that's going to be that.

Sir, furthermore you have been basing your argument on the premise that a couple of coincidences prove that Chris Avellone most certainly always intended Arren Kae to be Kreia. However, I cannot accept this without hearing it from Avellone himself, so I must advocate all possible theories until we hear word from LucasArts. *something about the earth being flat*
Okay. Thanks for clarifying your position.

Nevertheless, thank you for giving me such an excellent debate and a theory I will remember when I next hear word on the subject. I, as you, hope they at least tell us some time soon, either way. I won't be losing any sleep over it. Hopefully you won't either. Take care.

Shem
04-19-2008, 11:18 AM
The whole Kreia as the same person as Kae never sat well with me.

It just raises more questions (or statements) to motive if that was going to be the case!

-Why wasn’t that revealed in the game itself? Kreia died, end of story. What would be the point of not revealing it after the game’s events because now it becomes a side issue which really weakens the plot behind it if it were true.

-Why hasn’t it been revealed after 3 ½ years since the game has been released? What are they waiting for? Don’t say KOTOR III because that would be something that would distract the story of the next chapter of the game series. The only way that would work out well is if both Kreia and Brianna were main characters in that game. That wouldn’t be the case. Could you imagine if they were to leave hints about the Revan revelation, but never actually revealed in K1, but revealed in TSL? That would be bad storytelling, especially since Revan was just talked about, but was never around in the game.

-The female Exile is now considered the canon way of playing the game. That means the Handmaiden’s role is has been limited to just stealing the Ebon Hawk, telling your party to lay down their weapons, asking Atris about caring for the Exile once, and other optional conversations you could have with her at the Polar Region. Once you leave, her small role in the game is over.

-The hints used to support the theory they’re the same person are easily debunked making it just pure speculation without conclusive facts.

-We were told that no twists were going to be in TSL. There’s a hint left in one of the dialogue files about that:
http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/301/notwistshkv7.jpg

-Kreia makes it clear that she was cast out because of her teachings and beliefs. It was also stated that Kae was exiled for having a child. In TSL, it was clear that Kreia is against love, but wants to prove that her teachings are right. If love was something she thought was right, she would be in the same boat as Jolee Bindo in how she felt about it. If she did believe in love, she wouldn’t have changed her mind about it because that would prove in her mind that one of the Jedi teachings was correct and I don’t think she would dare do that. If there were any issues she agreed with the Jedi on; it would be teachings she already believed in before her exile. She would not change her mind and say the Jedi were right about something after her bitter exile. Kreia was on a mission to prove that she was right and the Jedi were wrong.

-Kreia serving under Revan during the Mandalorian Wars is something I can’t picture her doing. She likes to be the master; the one in charge; that way she is in control. She’s also someone who prefers to resolve conflicts through pacifism and manipulation, even to a point to play tricks on people’s minds, not violence. I believe it was stated that the Jedi thought Kreia “died” during the Mandalorian Wars; never stating she was killed. Not everybody who died during the Mandalorian Wars was a part of it.

-Kreia hates Atris with a passion. Why would she want to leave her child with Atris of all people? She would have manipulated that situation differently and we know she’s good at getting what she wants. If anything, she would have tried to keep, perhaps hide her and use her for her cunning purposes. This reminds that if Kreia wanted to hide Brianna’s existence from the Jedi Council, she would have gotten away with it. Anybody who knows Kreia knows she’s very clever.

There are other questions I have thought up in the past about this whole situation that I haven’t brought to attention. If anything, I hope I’ve made enough points why I can’t buy into it so at least you understand my personal point of view.

It’s possible that a revelation could come out and say that Kreia and Kae are the game person. If that were to happen, I would be one of the first to admit I was wrong. The only thing that would puzzle me is that some things wouldn’t add up with the whole situation and there would have to be holes to fill so there would be nothing that contracts the revelation. That way it’s not bad story telling. I would find that hard to do to be honest.

I’m more in the boat that it’s something that probably will never be resolved. Perhaps “no comment” was mentioned about the situation by Chris Avellone (I believe it was him) was because he wanted to leave something for us to talk about and debate. If I was in his shoes, I probably would have said the same thing just to keep the debate alive and keep something fresh about a game that is many years old. Those who know me best know that is something I’m very capable of doing and enjoy watching people debate and get a few good laughs, especially if I knew I was responsible for the reason why it’s still debated. Maybe it would be a good thing to leave unsolved. That way we have something to talk about for a game that is closing in on four years.

Am I here to change your mind? No. What would be the point of that to be honest? Most people who go at each other back and forth trying to change other people’s minds already have made up their minds on what they are going to believe so trying to change it is pointless. The debates become pointless because many times bitter feelings towards the other person you’re debating can develop because both sides are suborn.

Once someone sets their mind to something, most likely they’re not going to change it. Life has taught me that many people won’t even accept the truth even when it’s revealed to them, which is why I love Carth’s quote that you see in my signature because I have a great respect for those who can accept the truth when it’s presented in front of them, even if they don’t like it. People’s pride and/or ego are the only thing that holds them back in those situations because they have this obsession about having to be right about almost everything. I’m already seeing signs of this when I skim through this debate.

Clint_johnston2
04-19-2008, 04:35 PM
Well I came on here to remark in a new topic on the revelation that "scorchy"'s walkthrough seem to reveal, but it seems you've been doing some debating on your own, as only people who have entirely too much time on their hands can do.

DOES THIS MATTER? The point is it was a fun game with a interesting character. She could be one or the other. Don't get me wrong, I love the game, but despite my taking the entire day yesterday to read said walkthrough, I'm not this hooked on it.

Q
04-19-2008, 05:21 PM
^^^
I think that post was insulting as well as entirely unnecessary.

Achilles
04-19-2008, 07:18 PM
I used to think that people that advocated this had too much time on their hands, but after reading Scorchy's walkthrough, I'm a believer.Well I came on here to remark in a new topic on the revelation that "scorchy"'s walkthrough seem to reveal, but it seems you've been doing some debating on your own, as only people who have entirely too much time on their hands can do.
See? Clearly the author intended to imply that my avatar is Clint_johnston2's mother.
It's all there if you put the pieces together. ;)

jonathan7
04-19-2008, 07:33 PM
Well I came on here to remark in a new topic on the revelation that "scorchy"'s walkthrough seem to reveal, but it seems you've been doing some debating on your own, as only people who have entirely too much time on their hands can do.

Clearly, your so much more busy than us that you posted in this thread? :rolleyes:

i_shot_the_jedi
04-19-2008, 07:59 PM
Enough lampooning him gentlemen. It won't do any more good.

JCarter426
04-19-2008, 08:07 PM
See? Clearly the author intended to imply that my avatar is Clint_johnston2's mother.
It's all there if you put the pieces together. ;)

:rofl:

Back to topic, though...

To me, whether Mr Avellone and company intended Kreia to be Kae is not the question. Aside from the fact that Mr Avellone has all but confirmed that this was their intention, it's irrelevant now anyway, becase KOTOR 2 is over and done with. Like it or not, Kreia's past is in the hands of Mr Miller and the rest of the KOTOR comic crew. And, unfortunately, I think it's very possible that they're trying to make Krynda into Kreia.

Although, on a somewhat related topic, I keep getting the feeling that Krynda is actually no longer with us. Is this just me?

Jolly Boots
04-20-2008, 03:00 AM
:rofl:

Back to topic, though...

To me, whether Mr Avellone and company intended Kreia to be Kae is not the question. Aside from the fact that Mr Avellone has all but confirmed that this was their intention, it's irrelevant now anyway, becase KOTOR 2 is over and done with. Like it or not, Kreia's past is in the hands of Mr Miller and the rest of the KOTOR comic crew. And, unfortunately, I think it's very possible that they're trying to make Krynda into Kreia.

Although, on a somewhat related topic, I keep getting the feeling that Krynda is actually no longer with us. Is this just me?
This may be just my opinion but whatever. Krynda only really offers up a fleshed out backstory , if she is Kreia that is. Offers an explanation (I'm springing to arguments made by both sides here) why she hates love (dead hubby and bad son), hates the Force (the prophecies are kinda screwing her over), who these students whom the Council felt fell to the Dark Side. People don't really come to these revelations all by themselves when sitting around all day. It takes experience to get to Kreia's point. And the fact that the Padawan Massacre of Taris sprung a lot of negative effects which affected more then one would imagine (think economics and the like as well as the butterfly effect). Krynda comes off as a very depressed and lonely teacher sort of lady who is constantly blaming herself. Isn't that why Kreia "fell" (using the word sparingly) in the first place?

As for her no longer being with us...I hope not. And I'm not just saying that in hopes that I am right myself. Krynda has a lot to answer for concerning the Covenant and their actions. That and I want her to smack Lucien around some more. Though still speculating that Lucien is Sion and Krynda is Kreia. Would be nice to see that deeper connection between the two. After all that coveting attention from his mother, Lucien finally gets her to be his teacher but not exactly in the way he expects...the whole breaking thing and the falling apart business. So tragic...that's something Arren Kae couldn't do if she was Kreia being that Brianna is such a simpler character and there wasn't any relationship between her and Kreia anyway besides the fact that Kreia wanted to use her to get to Atris. It'd be a twist just for the sake of being a twist.

Ctrl Alt Del
04-20-2008, 07:28 PM
Though still speculating that Lucien is Sion and Krynda is Kreia. Would be nice to see that deeper connection between the two. After all that coveting attention from his mother, Lucien finally gets her to be his teacher but not exactly in the way he expects...the whole breaking thing and the falling apart business. So tragic...that's something Arren Kae couldn't do if she was Kreia being that Brianna is such a simpler character and there wasn't any relationship between her and Kreia anyway besides the fact that Kreia wanted to use her to get to Atris. It'd be a twist just for the sake of being a twist.
Assuming that Kreia is Krynda and that Lucien played his part on it somehow... what's Haazen role on all of this?

JCarter426
04-20-2008, 08:06 PM
Foreshadowing. ;)

Clint_johnston2
04-20-2008, 11:40 PM
Clearly, your so much more busy than us that you posted in this thread?

I'm not saying that the topic isn't worth discussion. Just that 2 pages of "YES it is" and "No it isn't" doesn't really get anybody anywhere.

And if I have enough time to replay both games, who am I kidding? I have too much time on my own hands...

Ravnas
04-20-2008, 11:59 PM
I'm not saying that the topic isn't worth discussion. Just that 2 pages of "YES it is" and "No it isn't" doesn't really get anybody anywhere.

And if I have enough time to replay both games, who am I kidding? I have too much time on my own hands...

Isn't "Yes it is" and "No it isn't" a discussion? :D and if you have too much time on your hands, why are you posting?

Jolly Boots
04-21-2008, 01:50 AM
Assuming that Kreia is Krynda and that Lucien played his part on it somehow... what's Haazen role on all of this?
Actually. JCarter pretty much sums it up. Haazen is JJM red herring, the guy who we instantly look at and think of Sion. He's Lucien's master and Haazen seems to have done a bang up job keeping himself together from the last war. Haazen is the guy who I don't see lasting forever in the series. A red shirt if you will.

Totenkopf
04-21-2008, 02:00 AM
Isn't "Yes it is" and "No it isn't" a discussion? :D and if you have too much time on your hands, why are you posting?

Because....he/she has too much time on his/her hands.

Ravnas
04-21-2008, 02:08 AM
Because....he/she has too much time on his/her hands.

But If he/she has too much time on his hands so he posts but claims to not have enough time to post doesn't that mean*Brain explodes from the logical fallacy and the very hypocrisy of the action* :D

JCarter426
04-21-2008, 02:11 AM
Actually. JCarter pretty much sums it up. Haazen is JJM red herring, the guy who we instantly look at and think of Sion. He's Lucien's master and Haazen seems to have done a bang up job keeping himself together from the last war. Haazen is the guy who I don't see lasting forever in the series. A red shirt if you will.

A red shirt for a red herring. :D

Yup. that's pretty much what I was referring to. He's the spitten image of Sion, for two reasons: 1) it makes people think he's Sion, thus throwing them off a bit if/when Lucien is revealed to be Sion (which I actually think is a good move, as long as they don't make Krynda into Kreia :p), and 2) it also foreshadows that Lucien is going to become Sion, because he's going to make the same mistakes Haazen did. What will happen to Haazen? Who knows? He probably isn't long for this world, considering the condition that he's in. Or maybe Zayne takes him down; that's always a possibility (especially if Krynda is actually dead, and he's the one pulling the strings ;)).

Jolly Boots
04-21-2008, 02:44 AM
Sion being Lucien and Kreia being Krynda still would have more "poetic justice" considering the whole "jealousy of the Miraluka thing" Lucien's got going and then him just getting the bad end of a lightsaber from mommy. But either way would work out.

Then there's another Krynda/Kreia similarity.

"She's here. Can't you feel her presence?"

"No. I mean, yes. I mean --"

He senses her yet he doesn't. Obviously something is up with Krynda's lack of "present" appearances. But this is practically Kreia's trademark, making herself so small as to be unnoticed by other Force users. It's funny. As I was reading this page just now, Haazen sounds so much like Kreia. It's practically her speaking through him. Though maybe that's just usual Jedi cryptic.

Ctrl Alt Del
04-21-2008, 08:08 AM
A red shirt for a red herring. :D

Yup. that's pretty much what I was referring to. He's the spitten image of Sion, for two reasons: 1) it makes people think he's Sion, thus throwing them off a bit if/when Lucien is revealed to be Sion (which I actually think is a good move, as long as they don't make Krynda into Kreia :p)
I just have the feeling that if they make him Sion, probably Krynda will be Kreia. Something about making Kotor a more family game.

JCarter426
04-21-2008, 05:38 PM
Yeah, same here. That's the one reason I don't want Lucien to be Sion. :p

However, I also think that it's possible Krynda is just a red herring as well, if she's actually dead as I suspect. Lucien could still be Sion, and his apprenticeship to Kreia would still fit, as she reminds him so much of his mother. But this may be wishful thinking on my part.

Melly
04-21-2008, 08:18 PM
Grrr, can't Kreia and Sion just stay Kreia and Sion? I have no problem with Kreia being Arren Kae, because there is some evidence to back it up in the game. All this about Kreia being Krynda, etc. is giving me one of these ---> :rolleyes:

I hate the EU, can you tell? :xp:

Achilles
04-21-2008, 08:26 PM
Grrr, can't Kreia and Sion just stay Kreia and Sion? I have no problem with Kreia being Arren Kae, because there is some evidence to back it up in the game. All this about Kreia being Krynda, etc. is giving me one of these ---> :rolleyes:

I hate the EU, can you tell? :xp:QFT.

It's like when one studio releases a wildly successful film so other studios start releasing similar movies direct to DVD that have similar marketing (font, DVD covers, etc). The sad thing is that they only do this because there are enough people going ga-ga for the knock-off to make it profitable.

JCarter426
04-21-2008, 08:41 PM
Grrr, can't Kreia and Sion just stay Kreia and Sion? I have no problem with Kreia being Arren Kae, because there is some evidence to back it up in the game. All this about Kreia being Krynda, etc. is giving me one of these ---> :rolleyes:

Oh, I agree. While I whole-heartedly support seeing the backgrounds of Kreia, Sion, Revan, Malak, etc in the comics, I'm sick of all these poorly designed attempts at plot twists (see: the Revanchist leader, Alek Squintsalot).

TKA-001
04-21-2008, 08:48 PM
Personally, I'd like having Revan do something that is actually seen, rather than mentioned by Basil Exposition.

Corinthian
04-21-2008, 10:13 PM
It's not like Revan doesn't already have segments of a personality anyway - given his memory wipe, they could literally do whatever the hell they wanted with the character and nobody would really have any cause to complain.

Jolly Boots
04-21-2008, 11:32 PM
Grrr, can't Kreia and Sion just stay Kreia and Sion? I have no problem with Kreia being Arren Kae, because there is some evidence to back it up in the game. All this about Kreia being Krynda, etc. is giving me one of these ---> :rolleyes:

I hate the EU, can you tell? :xp:
Wait. Isn't KOTOR EU?

I find it funny how it's possible to punch holes in the Arren Kae theory yet the only thing the Kae theorists can come up with to punch holes in Krynda is the fact that she is a new creation of the comics and not directly from the game. Really. I honestly don't think the Kae theorists have even tried to look and even read the material.


Oh, I agree. While I whole-heartedly support seeing the backgrounds of Kreia, Sion, Revan, Malak, etc in the comics, I'm sick of all these poorly designed attempts at plot twists (see: the Revanchist leader, Alek Squintsalot).
I don't think it was intended for them to be a plot twist. It's kinda hard to reveal that Alek is going to be Malak in a number years without giving into the "dream sequence" in which, as the comic likes to press, aren't reliable. I think JJM just likes building up the characters so much that by the time it's revealed, it's not even a plot twist. Like if it was a plot twist, JVS:EGTF wouldn't have thrown that little tibit in about those two.

Corinthian
04-21-2008, 11:34 PM
I've never seen anyone punch holes in the Kae theory, and the reason why Kaeists can't punch holes in Kryndists is because there is so little on Krynda.

JCarter426
04-21-2008, 11:47 PM
Wait. Isn't KOTOR EU?

I find it funny how it's possible to punch holes in the Arren Kae theory yet the only thing the Kae theorists can come up with to punch holes in Krynda is the fact that she is a new creation of the comics and not directly from the game. Really. I honestly don't think the Kae theorists have even tried to look and even read the material.

Well, as a Kae theorist myself, I can say that 1) I've never seen anyone punch holes in the Kae theory, and the reason why Kaeists can't punch holes in Kryndists is because there is so little on Krynda.

what Corinthian said, and 2) I do follow the comics. I've missed one volume, however, as I'm waiting for it to come out in trade paperback

I don't think it was intended for them to be a plot twist. It's kinda hard to reveal that Alek is going to be Malak in a number years without giving into the "dream sequence" in which, as the comic likes to press, aren't reliable. I think JJM just likes building up the characters so much that by the time it's revealed, it's not even a plot twist.

Might not have been intended as a plot twist, but that's what it looks like. That actually annoys me more, because it's not meant to be a plot twist, why did they wait so long to reveal it? There's absolutely no point to learn the backstory of Revan and Malak if we're not 100% sure that they're Revan and Malak (and even though it was so obvious, no one could be 100% sure).

Jolly Boots
04-21-2008, 11:56 PM
Shem gave a pretty good post that punched some holes into it. Link. (http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost.php?p=2451933&postcount=57) Solid. Though he doesn't mention the fact that Disciple can name Arren Kae. And if Kreia was Kae then why couldn't he recall Revan's first master? If they were the same then Kae wouldn't have even been mentioned in the first place unless there was another name Kreia was going under. By punching holes in the Krynda theory, I meant that some theorists seem totally closed off and stubborn like "No. No. No. Your wrong. I'm right. Case closed." Arms folded, blah, blah, blah. Or to the point where they believe that Chris Avellone is the best writer and his writing surpasses all and the original intent MUST take place...yeah. Not the best thing to think when the game he intended for was pretty much chopped up into little bits and he also screwed up continuity with the basilisk thing.

Might not have been intended as a plot twist, but that's what it looks like. That actually annoys me more, because it's not meant to be a plot twist, why did they wait so long to reveal it? There's absolutely no point to learn the backstory of Revan and Malak if we're not 100% sure that they're Revan and Malak (and even though it was so obvious, no one could be 100% sure).
Funny thing is that they have yet to even mention it in the series. I found that very odd then came to the conclusion that it wasn't a twist. I was actually expecting Alek being the one to kill off Raana and then Zayne getting a vision. It's like Darth Krayt being A'shard Hett. That fact wasn't the twist of the series, that was just a revelation that may or may not have been obvious. Like a "...oh.". Not a "Say WHA?! How did I miss that?!" like Revan in K1 and Nyna Calixte being Morrigan Corde.

Achilles
04-22-2008, 12:08 AM
Wait. Isn't KOTOR EU? There's EU and then there's EU. ;)

I can't speak for others but I might be willing to assume that what we're talking about is the difference between good writing that adds to the universe and bad writing that tries to sell more units to fanboys.

I find it funny how it's possible to punch holes in the Arren Kae theory yet the only thing the Kae theorists can come up with to punch holes in Krynda is the fact that she is a new creation of the comics and not directly from the game. Really. I honestly don't think the Kae theorists have even tried to look and even read the material. Gee, how many air-tight arguments are necessary? If the comic came out after the game, then clearly the game writer did not write the character with the comic in mind. Pretty obvious, no?

Now if there's a...I think you guys call them "retcons"...retcon, then there's a retcon, but I think the whole point of this thread is to point out that not everyone is going to gobble up that big ole' spoonful of "can't write my own stories" with a smile on their face. Do you advocate midochlorians, Greedo shooting first, and Jabba's song and dance band too?

Jolly Boots
04-22-2008, 12:16 AM
I can't speak for others but I might be willing to assume that what we're talking about is the difference between good writing that adds to the universe and bad writing that tries to sell more units to fanboys.
Isn't that just a matter of opinion? Personally, I don't think Avellone is the best writer in the world. His screw up with the whole basilisk, Mandalore, etc is quite annoying. And I don't think JJM's writing is the best either - too inconsistent with characters behavior - though Vector I can't blame totally on him. Also, I think he's a little too simple with his dialog, not really realistic enough where someone would just say "Dammit!". And both of them have a tendency to drag out the dialog way too far.

Gee, how many air-tight arguments are necessary? If the comic came out after the game, then clearly the game writer did not write the character with the comic in mind. Pretty obvious, no?
Chris Avellone has the rights of Kreia. Lucas can do whatever the hell he feels like with her. One would like to think that Avellone still had control but he doesn't. It's in JJM hands. You can't make that arugement here. Original intent is all well and good but means jack.

Now if there's a...I think you guys call them "retcons"...retcon, then there's a retcon, but I think the whole point of this thread is to point out that not everyone is going to gobble up that big ole' spoonful of "can't write my own stories". Do you advocate midochlorians, Greedo shooting first, and Jabba's song and dance band too?
God no. But it's, unfortuantly, canon. I'm not even happy about the decisious made about Revan or the Exile. At all. But I don't have any control. I know people like that. I just don't happen to. Am I going to say "No. No. Han shot first. Case closed." No, that's me just being stubborn. It isn't real. No point in getting bent out of shape about it.

Melly
04-22-2008, 12:18 AM
Wait. Isn't KOTOR EU? Yes, it's been accepted into the EU and been expanded one. It was actually the latter that I was saying I hated along with about 99.9% of all the books, comics, etc. that also makes up the EU. To me KotOR is what's in the game, and that's it.

I find it funny how it's possible to punch holes in the Arren Kae theory yet the only thing the Kae theorists can come up with to punch holes in Krynda is the fact that she is a new creation of the comics and not directly from the game. Really. I honestly don't think the Kae theorists have even tried to look and even read the material.


I don't know if this was directed at me but... I'll answer it anyway. I said that I have no problem with Kreia being Kae because there is some (the operative word there some) evidence of it in TSL whether is was intentional is up for debate, but I don't recall ever saying it was a air tight theory. ;) If Kreia's not Kae, I have no problem with that either. However, I do think the real reason why a lot of people (but no all) don't like the thought that Kreia is Kae is because they don't like the idea of having Kreia as a mother-in-law. :xp:

As for why I have a problem with this Kreia is Krynda theory is exactly what you said because there's no mention of her at all in TSL, because she was invented later. So it would be complete and utter retcon, and I loathe that.

Tommycat
04-22-2008, 12:20 AM
To me it seemed that Kreia was protective of the handmaiden. More like a mother, so it made sense to me that Kreia was Kae. However since that dialogue is not part of the canon story(another bone of contention for me), it is possible that Krynda Draay is her "real" identity.

JCarter426
04-22-2008, 12:22 AM
And if Kreia was Kae then why couldn't he recall Revan's first master? If they were the same then Kae wouldn't have even been mentioned in the first place unless there was another name Kreia was going under.

Mical does recall Revan's first master. He never tells the player that it was specifically Kae, however (most likely because the Exile doesn't really care :p). However, Kreia wipes his memory when he tells the Exile too much about Revan. After that, he remembers Kae's name, but he doesn't remember who Revan's first master was. Now, I bet you're thinking "Well, that means that Kae isn't Kreia, because Kreia would have wiped that too". Well, no, for a number of reasons. The main reason is that she doesn't care if the Exile knows who Arren Kae was (in fact, she tells male Exile herself), because that wouldn't give away anything, because everyone thinks Kae is dead.

By punching holes in the Krynda theory, I meant that some theorists seem totally closed off and stubborn like "No. No. No. Your wrong. I'm right. Case closed." Arms folded, blah, blah, blah.

Can't speak for others, but my view is that Krynda could be Kreia, but if she were it would break continuity. Now, would that stop them? Of course not. They already broke continuity with the whole Alek/Revanchist thing (one instance: the Exile shouldn't have known the name Malak if he didn't go by that name until the Jedi Civil War).

Or to the point where they believe that Chris Avellone is the best writer and his writing surpasses all and the original intent MUST take place...yeah.

Mr Avellone is a fine writer. :p But I see your point. ;)

Not the best thing to think when the game he intended for was pretty much chopped up into little bits and he also screwed up continuity with the basilisk thing.

He's a writer, not head of the arts department. ;) And that wasn't a continuity error; they intentionally changed the look of the Basilisk droid because the old ones looked silly. Not the first time this has happened, and it could be easily explained as an improvement in technology (hell, BioWare made an even bigger "continuity error" with K1--but that can be explained away for the same reason).

Not to say that K2 doesn't have a few continuity errors, but I blame LA for that, because they didn't let the development team even play K1 until about halfway through development (and then pushed up the due date three months, making it so that the team couldn't fix all those errors).

Achilles
04-22-2008, 12:23 AM
Isn't that just a matter of opinion? If you'd like to present an argument for how it isn't a matter of fact, then I'll be happy to take a look at whatever you'd like to present.

Chris Avellone has the rights of Kreia. Lucas can do whatever the hell he feels like with her. One would like to think that Avellone still had control but he doesn't. It's in JJM hands. You can't make that arugement here. Original intent is all well and good but means jack. I like how you just made my point without addressing it directly. Yes, if "JJM" wants to rip-off Chris Avellone's work so that he can feel clever, and GL wants to sign off on it so that he can sell more comic books, then that is GL's right to do so. But let's at least acknowledge it for what it is and not pretend that Chris Avellone's story isn't being hijacked, okay?

Yes, I get that canon is more important that artistic integrity for you, but not everyone feels the same way. And while this does ultimately boil down to "tastes great" vs "less filling" the aforementioned facts of the matter aren't going to change.

God no. But it's, unfortuantly, canon. I'm not even happy about the decisious made about Revan or the Exile. At all. But I don't have any control. I know people like that. I just don't happen to. Am I going to say "No. No. Han shot first. Case closed." No, that's me just being stubborn. It isn't real. No point in getting bent out of shape about it.But you'll get bent out of shape about this? Something isn't consistent here.

PS: And by admitting that you accept it as canon, you are admitting that you do advocate it (canon > everything else).

Melly
04-22-2008, 12:33 AM
Not to say that K2 doesn't have a few continuity errors, but I blame LA for that, because they didn't let the development team even play K1 until about halfway through development (and then pushed up the due date three months, making it so that the team couldn't fix all those errors).

Really? Where did you hear that? Seriously, I want to know. It'll give me more :blaze6: when defending K2. :D

Jolly Boots
04-22-2008, 12:36 AM
However, I do think the real reason why a lot of people (but no all) don't like the thought that Kreia is Kae is because they don't like the idea of having Kreia as a mother-in-law.
Oh, Kreia would be such a fun mother-in-law.

As for why I have a problem with this Kreia is Krynda theory is exactly what you said because there's no mention of her at all in TSL, because she was invented later. So it would be complete and utter retcon, and I loathe that.
And I loathe a twist for the sake of a twist. "I am your mother" for the hell of it? No. Kreia doesn't have a deep enough connection to her for that.

Can't speak for others, but my view is that Krynda could be Kreia, but if she were it would break continuity. Now, would that stop them? Of course not. They already broke continuity with the whole Alek/Revanchist thing (one instance: the Exile shouldn't have known the name Malak if he didn't go by that name until the Jedi Civil War).
Point taken.

He's a writer, not head of the arts department. And that wasn't a continuity error; they intentionally changed the look of the Basilisk droid because the old ones looked silly. Not the first time this has happened, and it could be easily explained as an improvement in technology (hell, BioWare made an even bigger "continuity error" with K1--but that can be explained away for the same reason).
Ah...and now we have JJM doing to Avellone what he did to the writer of TOTJ. Consciously taking a factor and screwing around with it.

I like how you just made my point without addressing it directly. Yes, if "JJM" wants to rip-off Chris Avellone's work so that he can feel clever, and GL wants to sign off on it so that he can sell more comic books, then that is GL's right to do so. But let's at least acknowledge it for what it is and not pretend that Chris Avellone's story isn't being hijacked, okay?
Not denying it. And Avellone hijacked it from whoever the hell wrote the first KOTOR. While I, and certainly you, believe he did for the better, I can make an argument saying that he completley took K1s characters and screwed them up and screwed up the series. It isn't ripping off if the same guys are from the same company. The point of the games were to make money. The point of the second one was to make more money since the first did so well. It's all about the money.

But you'll get bent out of shape about this? Something isn't consistent here.
I'm not getting bent out of shape. If it turns out I'm wrong. A quiet "dammit" and laugh at myself will do and then move on to the next speculative business at hand.

PS: And by admitting that you accept it as canon, you are admitting that you do advocate it (canon > everything else).
You make it sound like I advocated the Holocaust. Which apparently I do since I accept that it happened and don't dwell on it.

JCarter426
04-22-2008, 12:48 AM
Ah...and now we have JJM doing to Avellone what he did to the writer of TOTJ. Consciously taking a factor and screwing around with it.

I'd hardly compare changing the artistic style to completely rehashing one of the main characters. Now, what they did with Malak was all fine and dandy, but did they really need to make several major continuity errors and retcons along the way?

Jolly Boots
04-22-2008, 12:55 AM
I'd hardly compare changing the artistic style to completely rehashing one of the main characters. Now, what they did with Malak was all fine and dandy, but did they really need to make several major continuity errors and retcons along the way?
I believe JJM's explanation for the name (before it was even finally said that they were the same) was that even though a guy like Josef Stalin had different name at first, everyone after the fact only knew him as Stalin and that's how history remembers him. It doesn't account for Exile's name but for all we know Alek changes his name before he even takes the Darth title.

Achilles
04-22-2008, 01:00 AM
No argument coming then? Okay.

Not denying it. And Avellone hijacked it from whoever the hell wrote the first KOTOR. He hijacked Kreia's character from KotOR? You'll have to help me out with that one.

While I, and certainly you, believe he did for the better, I can make an argument saying that he completley took K1s characters and screwed them up and screwed up the series. The only character that he took liberty with was HK-47. I suppose you could argue T3-M4 as well, but since all of his dialog is inferred, I think that would be a difficult sell indeed.

Also, how does one "screw up the series" in the first sequel? It can't be a series until there's at least two correct?

It isn't ripping off if the same guys are from the same company. The point of the games were to make money. The point of the second one was to make more money since the first did so well. It's all about the money. No doubt that Obsidian was very much interested in turning a profit, but Avellone's consistent lamenting of not getting to finish his vision of the game suggests to me that it was more than a paycheck.

I'm not getting bent out of shape. If it turns out I'm wrong. A quiet "dammit" and laugh at myself will do and then move on to the next speculative business at hand. But how can you be wrong? If they retcon Kreia then it's canon and then you get to be right. Cheer up, GL will do all your thinking for you.

You make it sound like I advocated the Holocaust. Which apparently I do since I accept that it happened and don't dwell on it.Excellent work with that strawman. :)

JCarter426
04-22-2008, 01:10 AM
It doesn't account for Exile's name but for all we know Alek changes his name before he even takes the Darth title.

Not according to Jedi vs Sith, which claims that Revan and Malak changed their names upon finding Lehon and the Star Forge.


Not denying it. And Avellone hijacked it from whoever the hell wrote the first KOTOR.

Actually, the BioWare development team recommended Avellone and Obsidian. Oh, and K1's head writer was Drew Karpyshyn. ;)

The only character that he took liberty with was HK-47.

Who was written wonderfully, by the way. :D

One could also argue Revan, but that's only if you take everything at face value--and with a game like K2, you really shouldn't.

Jolly Boots
04-22-2008, 01:17 AM
He hijacked Kreia's character from KotOR? You'll have to help me out with that one.

The only character that he took liberty with was HK-47. I suppose you could argue T3-M4 as well, but since all of his dialog is inferred, I think that would be a difficult sell indeed.
Revan anyone? Oh he didn't really fall to the dark side. And the mere creation of a True Sith, which has met some criticism. Me, I'm withholding until I see something come from that.

Also, how does one "screw up the series" in the first sequel? It can't be a series until there's at least two correct?
Potential of a series.

No doubt that Obsidian was very much interested in turning a profit, but Avellone's consistent lamenting of not getting to finish his vision of the game suggests to me that it was more than a paycheck.
Such a shame no one can prove that. But if he wasn't getting paid, he wouldn't have written the game.

But how can you be wrong? If they retcon Kreia then it's canon and then you get to be right. Cheer up, GL will do all your thinking for you.
Oh I can easily be wrong. Krynda can easily be someone else and Kae can end up being Kreia. And if I am right, then yay. Its always nice to be right. And I'm not sure what your assuming by letting GL do all of my thinking.

Excellent work with that strawman. :)
Advocating and accepting the fact are two totally different things. Yes, yes. It's all horrible and awful and should never have happened but really. One must get on with ones life (especially with things like the Holocaust that was never even in my life in the first place). Dwelling isn't healthy. What do you want? A protest in the street that "Lucas should have never have created midichlorians! He should have kept Han shooting first!" Yeah...smart.

JCarter426
04-22-2008, 01:30 AM
Revan anyone? Oh he didn't really fall to the dark side.

*points up* :p

Allow me to elaborate...

G0-T0 and Mical point out Revan's strategy, yes (HK too). But never do they say that Revan didn't fall. In fact, quite the opposite. They all just approve of his decision though (even Mical, to an extent). But that doesn't change the fact that Revan fell.

Oh, and speaking of which, that was one of the things I liked about K2. Everyone was wrong. That's right, everyone. Canderous had this delusion in that the Republic would be better off under Mandalorian rule. Mical lived in a fantasy world where the Jedi had a nice talk with Revan and worked things out. HK believed that he was more than the sum of his parts, that his assassination has more meaning than just mindless killing. G0-T0 believed that it didn't matter which side one picked, as long as they picked one. And of course Kreia wouldn't admit that Revan was a failure. They all had different views, making the player see things from all sides. And yet they were all wrong.

[...]

Everyone who made Revan out to be a living legend was wrong. Only the player (not the Exile, as the Exile was wrong too ;)) was right, as the player most likely had played K1 and knew what really happened (now that is a fatal flaw--assuming the player has played the original--but that's another matter).

Second time I've quoted that in as many days. :D

As I said above, you shouldn't take everything in K2 at face value. The writers of K2 don't give you the facts; they give you a whole lot of hearsay and biased opinions, and it's up to the player to piece everything together for themself.

Jolly Boots
04-22-2008, 01:35 AM
Not according to Jedi vs Sith, which claims that Revan and Malak changed their names upon finding Lehon and the Star Forge.
Got me there. :xp:

Actually, the BioWare development team recommended Avellone and Obsidian. Oh, and K1's head writer was Drew Karpyshyn. ;)
And how do we know Avellone didn't recommend JJM? Wait, don't answer that one. I already know the answer. We don't know. Perhaps someone should inquiry him if he had any involvement with the comics. Interesting to know what he thinks. Though I doubt we'd get any answers. Ah well. Would be nice to know though.

Melly
04-22-2008, 01:46 AM
Revan anyone? Oh he didn't really fall to the dark side. And the mere creation of a True Sith, which has met some criticism. Me, I'm withholding until I see something come from that. I actually don't have a problem with it, if is indeed not just a fallacy of Kreia's. Mainly, because we're not really told anything about Revan in the first game (and I'm talking strictly game here). What do we know? That Revan split with the rest of the Jedi Order, joined the Mandalorian Wars, met something on the Outer Rim, fell to the DS, attacked the Republic, Bastila "captured" Revan, cue the opening theme. That's it pretty much. We're led to believe that it was the Star Forge that corrupted Revan and Malak, but we're never told that it was specifically so it's really not a retcon.

And with the information that Obsidian gives us in K2 certain conversations in K1 can be interpreted entirely different. Like one between Bastila and Carth when he asked her if she was tempted to join the Mandy Wars. Canderous says the Sith were the ones that convinced the Mandalorians to attack the Republic, etc.

As for the "True Sith" that wasn't entirely Obsidian's creation *drags out .tlk file*

Canderous: "The Sith came to us with an offer: to fight a worthy enemy in a battle that would be remembered forever."
Canderous: "The Sith had gone - retreated into their empire. They sealed themselves off from the rest of the galaxy. We thought it would be centuries before they'd come back. It's amazing that they could rebuild their fleet so fast."

Both those lines are from K1, Canderous is of course, confusing the Sith they're fighting in K1 for the Sith that tricked the Mandalorians into fighting the Republic. They're not the same Sith, as we well know.

Of course, maybe I'm just bias because I love K2 so much... and a certain Zabrak. :^:

Jolly Boots
04-22-2008, 01:52 AM
I'm not saying at all that it bothers me. I have no problems with either Sith or Revan "recons" or whatever. Just saying an argument can and has been made against it.

And with the information that Obsidian gives us in K2 certain conversations in K1 can be interpreted entirely different. Like one between Bastila and Carth when he asked her if she was tempted to join the Mandy Wars. Canderous says the Sith were the ones that convinced the Mandalorians to attack the Republic, etc.
And can't JJM give information that makes info in K2 interpreted different too? Can't he write a comic without having some sinister motive to undercut, hijack, seem better then Avellone? :xp:

Ravnas
04-22-2008, 02:03 AM
Well if he isn't then that's that, but in my opinion he's not doing a very good job of making it seem like he has another motive.

JCarter426
04-22-2008, 02:07 AM
And can't JJM give information that makes info in K2 interpreted different too?

By all means. But there's a difference between interpretation and retcons.

Really? Where did you hear that? Seriously, I want to know. It'll give me more :blaze6: when defending K2. :D

Whoops...didn't see that earlier. My apologies. :)

For the first one...

[from http://www.starwarsknights.com/fullstory.php?id=386]

The first story draft was pretty terrible, mostly because we weren’t allowed to play K1 before drafting it, so we really knew nothing about the first game and were writing in the dark (Revan who?).

It was a frustrating situation that we wasted 2-3 months on that (there was nothing to be done about it), and then had to do another revision once we were able to play the first game. If you feel a disconnect in the storylines, that would be one of the reasons (again, my fault).

As for the second...can't find a link at the moment...might find one later. It's true, though. ;)

Jolly Boots
04-22-2008, 02:08 AM
Well if he isn't then that's that, but in my opinion he's not doing a very good job of making it seem like he has another motive.
Oh yes. John Jackson Miller has a saddistic motive to destroy Avellone's story just for the sake of it. Honestly. Are you living in another world or something? If this was some sort of quasy political game where there are actual stakes and gains to be made besides money, okay. But really. Grow up and look at the world for what it is. Both of these guys are just writers looking to pay for the bread.

I'm detecting a lot of, to be frank, spiteful bias.

By all means. But there's a difference between interpretation and retcons.
Making Kreia into Krynda isn't recon since Kreia doesn't even have a fleshed out backstory besides historian who was exiled for her teachings and the fall of her Padawans (not including Revan considering the fact that he "fell" after the Council believed her dead.)

Ravnas
04-22-2008, 02:08 AM
QUOTE]The first story draft was pretty terrible, mostly because we weren’t allowed to play K1 before drafting it, so we really knew nothing about the first game and were writing in the dark (Revan who?).[/QUOTE]

It's really a shame, because if they had at least 2 more months, this could've been one of the greatest games ever.

Achilles
04-22-2008, 02:12 AM
Revan anyone? Oh he didn't really fall to the dark side. And the mere creation of a True Sith, which has met some criticism. Me, I'm withholding until I see something come from that. I believe this argument as already been addressed by others.

Potential of a series.Oh, well, that's not what you said before. Regardless, this is only your opinion. Without seeing what else is coming, I think it's a little foolish to assume that whatever it is is no good, don't you (especially since you're trying so hard to make a show of not being emotionally invested).

Such a shame no one can prove that. But if he wasn't getting paid, he wouldn't have written the game. I'm afraid I'm having difficulty following your train of thought: Are you arguing that people can't love their work?

Oh I can easily be wrong. Krynda can easily be someone else and Kae can end up being Kreia. And if I am right, then yay. Its always nice to be right. And I'm not sure what your assuming by letting GL do all of my thinking. But if they retcon it, then it's canon and GL has told you what to think. Or do you wish to change your earlier position on the significance/value of canon?

Advocating and accepting the fact are two totally different things. Yes, yes. It's all horrible and awful and should never have happened but really. One must get on with ones life (especially with things like the Holocaust that was never even in my life in the first place). Dwelling isn't healthy. What do you want? A protest in the street that "Lucas should have never have created midichlorians! He should have kept Han shooting first!" Yeah...smart.I have a hard time taking this seriously considering how much time you've spent in this thread. If you want to argue for canon and retcons then that's fine, but don't turn around and criticize others that argue against them.

Making Kreia into Krynda isn't recon since Kreia doesn't even have a fleshed out backstory besides historian who was exiled for her teachings and the fall of her Padawans (not including Revan considering the fact that he "fell" after the Council believed her dead.)Patently false, however I suspect that your, to be frank, spiteful bias is preventing you from detecting it.

Ravnas
04-22-2008, 02:19 AM
Oh yes. John Jackson Miller has a saddistic motive to destroy Avellone's story just for the sake of it. Honestly. Are you living in another world or something? If this was some sort of quasy political game where there are actual stakes and gains to be made besides money, okay. But really. Grow up and look at the world for what it is. Both of these guys are just writers looking to pay for the bread.

I'm detecting a lot of, to be frank, spiteful bias.

Umm, I wasn't insinuating anything, I was just making a simple observation. Last time I checked though, these people do what they do for more than just making money.

Jolly Boots
04-22-2008, 02:19 AM
Oh, well, that's not what you said before. Regardless, this is only your opinion. Without seeing what else is coming, I think it's a little foolish to assume that whatever it is is no good, don't you (especially since you're trying so hard to make a show of not being emotionally invested).
Detecting a bit of spiteful sarcasm. Getting underneath the skin, am I?

I'm afraid I'm having difficulty following your train of thought: Are you arguing that people can't love their work?
A doctor doesn't heal unless there's a paycheck in it. It's called being human.

But if they retcon it, then it's canon and GL has told you what to think. Or do you wish to change your earlier position on the significance/value of canon?
It's fiction. It's not real. There's one story. And it's not mine.

I have a hard time taking this seriously considering how much time you've spent in this thread. If you want to argue for canon and retcons then that's fine, but don't turn around and criticize others that argue against them.
Criticize?

Patently false, however I suspect that your, to be frank, spiteful bias is preventing you from detecting it.
I'm not the one getting upset over a piece of fiction being changed.

Umm, I wasn't insinuating anything, I was just making a simple observation. Last time I checked though, these people do what they do for more than just making money.
Now that is funny. :lol:

JCarter426
04-22-2008, 02:20 AM
Making Kreia into Krynda isn't recon since Kreia doesn't even have a fleshed out backstory besides historian who was exiled for her teachings and the fall of her Padawans (not including Revan considering the fact that he "fell" after the Council believed her dead.)

Ah...not this again...

1. Kreia is human; Krynda is not (%100).
2. Kreia's Force Sight was self-inflicted; Krynda's was not.
3. Kreia taught Revan; Krynda did not.
4. I wasn't even talking about Krynda. Mr Miller has already caused retcons due to the Revanchist/Alek Squirmslikeaworm incident.
5. The Council didn't exile her over Revan's fall. They exiled her because her teachings violated the order. It's implied that some of her previous students (i.e. not Revan) fell (in the Council's eyes at least). After the fact, the Council blamed all of its problems on her, including the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War. Again, this does NOT mean that this is the truth. This is but one opinion--a biased one at that.

Jolly Boots
04-22-2008, 02:22 AM
1. Kreia is human; Krynda is not (%100).
Who says?
2. Kreia's Force Sight was self-inflicted; Krynda's was not.
Again. Who says?
3. Kreia taught Revan; Krynda did not.
Do I need to repeat myself?
4. I wasn't even talking about Krynda. Mr Miller has already caused retcons due to the Revanchist/Alek Squirmslikeaworm incident.
Hence the title of the thread...
5. The Council didn't exile her over Revan's fall. They exiled her because her teachings violated the order. It's implied that some of her previous students (i.e. not Revan) fell (in the Council's eyes at least). After the fact, the Council blamed all of its problems on her, including the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War. Again, this does NOT mean that this is the truth. This is but one opinion--a biased one at that.
Which is why I pointed out that it wasn't because of Revan. And I believe Atris is the lady who says that as well Kreia herself.

Ravnas
04-22-2008, 02:23 AM
Now that is funny. :lol:

Now that is shameless cynicism.

Jolly Boots
04-22-2008, 02:26 AM
Now that is shameless cynicism.
Not that people can't enjoy their work it's just that what your suggesting is that we're living is that Avellone would have worked for Lucasarts as a writer for nothing.

Ravnas
04-22-2008, 02:28 AM
Oh no I wasn't suggesting that at all. I very much doubt he would do that.

JCarter426
04-22-2008, 02:31 AM
Who says?

Kreia. And this is one of those times where I'm 99% sure she wasn't lying (can never be 100% with her ;)).

Again. Who says?

Again, Kreia.

Do I need to repeat myself?

This time, it's Mr Miller. He's given us no reason to think that Krynda taught Kreia. Unless he does, it's another retcon.

And I believe Atris is the lady who says that as well Kreia herself.

Yes, Atris and Kreia. And Vrook. And they're all biased. And they're all wrong.

Jolly Boots
04-22-2008, 02:36 AM
Kreia. And this is one of those times where I'm 99% sure she wasn't lying (can never be 100% with her ;)).



Again, Kreia.

Quotes. I need quotes. She never says she 100% human. Nor does she say that she inflicted Force sight onto herself.

This time, it's Mr Miller. He's given us no reason to think that Krynda taught Kreia. Unless he does, it's another retcon.
I assume you mean Revan. But he also hasn't given us reason not to think that. It's possible at this point. And as I've mentioned, Lucien and the others did know Revan(chist) to the point of calling him "friend". And where were Lucien and the others during their training? Krynda's place.

Yes, Atris and Kreia. And Vrook. And they're all biased. And they're all wrong.
How are they wrong that the Council exiled her for her teachings? I'm not saying the teachings were wrong. That's an in-game thing. But there isn't anything contradicting that fact besides the fact that Arren Kae was exiled for bumping uglies with Yusanis. Which may or may not contradict it. You can't just blantletly say that they're wrong if nothing is there to contradict it besides a piece of information that comes from speculation of another character. "Oh well, this piece and this piece CAN fit to this so that means THAT is wrong."

Achilles
04-22-2008, 02:38 AM
Detecting a bit of spiteful sarcasm. Getting underneath the skin, am I? Not even close.

A doctor doesn't heal unless there's a paycheck in it. It's called being human. That doesn't answer my question.

It's fiction. It's not real. There's one story. And it's not mine. Neither does this.

Criticize?
intransitive verb
: to act as a critic

transitive verb
1 : to consider the merits and demerits of and judge accordingly : evaluate 2 : to find fault with : point out the faults of

I hope that helps.

I'm not the one getting upset over a piece of fiction being changed. Not sure how this is related to what we were discussing. Again, not sure how you can comment on my participation in this thread without also painting your participation with the same brush.

Jolly Boots
04-22-2008, 02:42 AM
Not even close.
I don't know. You seem to be taking shots at me where they seem unnecessary and just plain (again) spiteful for the sake of being spiteful.

That doesn't answer my question.
One can enjoy their work. They just won't go into the field if there isn't any money in it.

Neither does this.
There was a question? I thought you were just taking shots at my intelligence.


intransitive verb
: to act as a critic

transitive verb
1 : to consider the merits and demerits of and judge accordingly : evaluate 2 : to find fault with : point out the faults of

I hope that helps.
...see first line.

Melly
04-22-2008, 02:45 AM
Again, Kreia.

Yep. To be exact she says one of the following (Or both. It's been I while since I played and I can't remember. I think she told my PC the first one): "There is nothing wrong with my eyes - they simply have atrophied from use. They are adequate to distinguish shapes, silhouettes. If need be, I could heal them, restore my sight, but sight can prove a distraction."

Or

"There is nothing wrong with my sight, if that is your question. I see all that I need, though the seeing of things flesh and blood has failed me some time ago. They were distractions only."

I quoted that directly from the .tlk file, but I think that first one is supposed to be "lack of use", because why would they atrophy if they were in use?

Jolly Boots
04-22-2008, 02:48 AM
Yep. To be exact she says one of the following (Or both. It's been I while since I played and I can't remember. I think she told my PC the first one): "There is nothing wrong with my eyes - they simply have atrophied from use. They are adequate to distinguish shapes, silhouettes. If need be, I could heal them, restore my sight, but sight can prove a distraction."

Or

"There is nothing wrong with my sight, if that is your question. I see all that I need, though the seeing of things flesh and blood has failed me some time ago. They were distractions only."

I quoted that directly from the .tlk file, but I think that first one is supposed to be "lack of use", because why would they atrophy if they were in use?
I don't see anywhere in that sentence that she gave herself Force sight. I always interpreted (and I mean, always. Before Krynda even existed.) as she had both at some point (how, never thought about) but then stopped using sight and always used the Force to see.

Achilles
04-22-2008, 02:54 AM
I don't know. You seem to be taking shots at me where they seem unnecessary and just plain (again) spiteful for the sake of being spiteful.The hypocrisy is getting a little thick, friend.

One can enjoy their work. They just won't go into the field if there isn't any money in it. A moment ago, you were arguing for proof about Avellone's motivations, but now you're here making assumptions about them yourself. Surely you can see how hypocritical this is. Having read interviews with Avellone, I know that he's at least willing to tell people that his love of role-play is what got him into the business. And I seriously doubt that you want to argue that video games were the booming industry that they are today 10 years ago or more. Or maybe you do, I don't know.

There was a question? I thought you were just taking shots at my intelligence. Yes, it was a question. I signified that it was a question by adding a question mark to the end of the sentence. I hope that this also helps to clarify any confusion you may have over future use of question marks as well.

...see first line.Your comment was the word "criticize" with question marks after it. I assumed that you were confused about the word's meaning. If I was supposed to divine some other message from this, then I apologize.

JCarter426
04-22-2008, 02:55 AM
Quotes. I need quotes. She never says she 100% human.

Not exactly. But she refers to Bao-Dur as "the alien" and Visas as "the Miraluka". If she weren't 100% human herself, she most likely wouldn't say this (especially the Miraluka part). However, this definitely is "interpretation", I suppose.

Nor does she say that she inflicted Force sight onto herself.

Yes, this one she definitely does.

Kreia: There is nothing wrong with my sight, if that is your question. I see all that I need, though the seeing of things flesh and blood has failed me some time ago. They were distractions only.

Exile: Is it like Visas' eyes? Were you blinded as she was?

Kreia: There is nothing wrong with my eyes - they simply have atrophied from use. They are adequate to distinguish shapes, silhouettes. If need be, I could heal them, restore my sight, but sight can prove a distraction. When one relies on sight to perceive the world, it is like trying to stare at the galaxy through a crack in the door. But that is a lesson for another time. You must learn to see crude matter for what it is before the veil is lifted

OK, she got a little preachy at the end. But she does assert that her eyes are not like Visas' eyes, furthermore implying that she is not part Miraluka.


I assume you mean Revan.

Whoops, got me there. :p

But he also hasn't given us reason not to think that. It's possible at this point. And as I've mentioned, Lucien and the others did know Revan(chist) to the point of calling him "friend". And where were Lucien and the others during their training? Krynda's place.

We've seen all the ones Krynda taught. None of them were Revan. But yes, it is possible; however, that would require Mr Miller to retcon his own work. :p

How are they wrong that the Council exiled her for her teachings? I'm not saying the teachings were wrong. That's an in-game thing.

Didn't say that. They were wrong that her teachings led to the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War. As I said, they blamed her ex post facto.

But there isn't anything contradicting that fact besides the fact that Arren Kae was exiled for bumping uglies with Yusanis.

We only have Kreia's word on this matter. And as I said earlier, Kreia lies. A lot. Especially about herself. Furthermore, it would be in her character to blame the Council for exiling her over the birth of her daughter, rather than exiling her for her own failures.

One further note: Kreia only admits that she was exiled because her teachings violated the order when the Exile calls her on it. And after that, she won't even talk about Revan when asked if she were to blame.[/QUOTE]

Jolly Boots
04-22-2008, 03:08 AM
Not exactly. But she refers to Bao-Dur as "the alien" and Visas as "the Miraluka". If she weren't 100% human herself, she most likely wouldn't say this (especially the Miraluka part). However, this definitely is "interpretation", I suppose.
I never thought that Krynda would think herself as Miraluka. Since she likes to praise the pure-bloods very much. She doesn't seem to see herself "as one of them."



Yes, this one she definitely does.



OK, she got a little preachy at the end. But she does assert that her eyes are not like Visas' eyes, furthermore implying that she is not part Miraluka.


I don't see anywhere in that sentence that she gave herself Force sight. I always interpreted (and I mean, always. Before Krynda even existed.) as she had both at some point (how, never thought about) but then stopped using sight and always used the Force to see.


We've seen all the ones Krynda taught. None of them were Revan. But yes, it is possible; however, that would require Mr Miller to retcon his own work. :p
Well. We've only seen the estate with students at it once. Revan was in the toilet at the time maybe. *shrug* Wouldn't be the first time one would have to recon ones own work. Though I don't think this is recon.



Didn't say that. They were wrong that her teachings led to the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War. As I said, they blamed her ex post facto.
Ah. I see.



We only have Kreia's word on this matter. And as I said earlier, Kreia lies. A lot. Especially about herself. Furthermore, it would be in her character to blame the Council for exiling her over the birth of her daughter, rather than exiling her for her own failures.

One further note: Kreia only admits that she was exiled because her teachings violated the order when the Exile calls her on it. And after that, she won't even talk about Revan when
asked if she were to blame.
But she does blame the Council for exiling her for her supposed failures. Both parties say she was exiled for the fall of her students. I would say that's pretty much solid. Or maybe I'm having trouble interpreting what exactly your trying to put across. :xp:

JCarter426
04-22-2008, 03:16 AM
I never thought that Krynda would think herself as Miraluka. Since she likes to praise the pure-bloods very much. She doesn't seem to see herself "as one of them."

Ah, but what does Kreia think? She hates Visas, and uses the term "the Miraluka" as if it's an insult. Maybe Mr Miller is going to explain that too. But I doubt it. :giveup:

But she does blame the Council for exiling her for her supposed failures. Both parties say she was exiled for the fall of her students. I would say that's pretty much solid. Or maybe I'm having trouble interpreting what exactly your trying to put across. :xp:

Maybe. :p My point was that Kreia only admits this when the Exile calls her lie. This happens a lot, actually, usually if the player passes a [Wisdom] or [Awareness] check (oh, Obsidian...you never cease to amaze; those were probably the best addition to K2 next to Kreia and the Hawk scenes :D).

Anyway, where was I? Right. The Exile asks Kreia about Atris. Kreia then says that she "walked her path". The Exile questions her about it, forcing Kreia to admit that she was exiled because the Council didn't approve of her teachings (though she still doesn't admit that it was her fault). Different scenario than when she claims that Kae was exiled because of her child; in this case, Kreia knows that the Exile doesn't know a thing about Kae, because Kreia's the one to bring up the name. So there's no way the Exile can call Kreia on her lie.

Blix
04-22-2008, 03:33 AM
I found it odd when searching through the most recent topic pages that there was no thread such as this (and I apologize if there is and I missed it...). So, here it is: what do you believe is Kreia's true identity?

There has been a great amount of discussion - much of it, I am sure, on these forums - over whether Kreia was indeed the fabled Jedi Master Arren Kae, mentioned briefly in Knights of the Old Republic II, and mother of the Handmaiden. On the little information we have to go on, the possibility is indeed quite likely - though not particularly strong.

Another popular theory is that Kreia is instead the similarly named Krynda Draay from the new comics. As they share numerous similarities, supporters of the theory believe that the story arc will conclude with the revelation that the two women are in fact the same person. However, this possibility is based on circumstantial evidence only, and nothing concrete linking the two has yet been revealed.

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/9279/kryndeiasz4.jpg
Krynda... possibly?

Or... has Kreia just always been Kreia, with only the one alter-ego: that of Darth Traya?

I am eager to hear your views.

While I don't know for certain if Kreia is in fact Arren Kae, I do know that-that pic is a fake. This (http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/a/a6/Kreiahoodlessconcept.jpg) one from wookiepedia shows the actual undhooded version of Kreia.

Jolly Boots
04-22-2008, 03:36 AM
Ah, but what does Kreia think? She hates Visas, and uses the term "the Miraluka" as if it's an insult. Maybe Mr Miller is going to explain that too. But I doubt it. :giveup:
I thought she hated her because she was a pathetic excuse for a Sith. That and the whole connection to Nihilus, one the guys she wants to kill. Seems to be a lot more then just a Miraluka thing.

Anyway, where was I? Right. The Exile asks Kreia about Atris. Kreia then says that she "walked her path". The Exile questions her about it, forcing Kreia to admit that she was exiled because the Council didn't approve of her teachings (though she still doesn't admit that it was her fault). Different scenario than when she claims that Kae was exiled because of her child; in this case, Kreia knows that the Exile doesn't know a thing about Kae, because Kreia's the one to bring up the name. So there's no way the Exile can call Kreia on her lie.
Ah I see what your saying. And it would make sense since love and attachments at the time weren't banned as of yet considering the whole Nomi Sunrider, Andur, Ulic thing just forty years before and how Jolee says he wasn't supposed to get married. Which I believe JJM might be fixing that little screw up on Biowares part - and then continued by Avellone. See? Not all bad. :xp:

Anyway. I can't really make the connection there since it seems so far distant from each other and so unrelated to each other and seems circumstantial.

JCarter426
04-22-2008, 03:46 AM
And it would make sense since love and attachments at the time weren't banned as of yet considering the whole Nomi Sunrider, Andur, Ulic thing just forty years before and how Jolee says he wasn't supposed to get married. Which I believe JJM might be fixing that little screw up on Biowares part - and then continued by Avellone. See? Not all bad. :xp:

Actually, the comics have it that marriage and conception are frowned upon, but the Draays are an exception because they're rich and powerful (because Mr Miller always has to make a political statement :p).

Oh, and a different set of KOTOR comics already retconned the whole thing. ;) Duron Qel-Droma's relationship with Whatserface was discouraged, and it led to both of their deaths (or some such), a good deal before K1. As for Ulic and Nomi, the implication is that their relationship led to the no attachments rule in the first place. And as for Jolee and Nayama, if I recall correctly, the Jedi were more upset that he trained her than they were when he married her. So marriage was frowned upon, but not forbidden. Fornication is another matter, though. ;)

i_shot_the_jedi
04-22-2008, 10:05 AM
While I don't know for certain if Kreia is in fact Arren Kae, I do know that-that pic is a fake. This (http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/a/a6/Kreiahoodlessconcept.jpg) one from wookiepedia shows the actual undhooded version of Kreia.

Yes, I'm glad that you noticed that! The image is in fact a combination of the Krynda and Kreia images, hence the caption "Krynda... possibly?"