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View Full Version : The alignment system - Good/Evil and Law/Chaos?


RedHawke
04-22-2008, 01:38 AM
Mod note: Conversation split from this modding thread (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=188118), since it evolved in a direction that has little to do with the original modding question. :) ~M


Actually IMHO the D&D alignment system is not really applicable to the Star Wars universe... Star Wars is not about Order (Law) or Chaos, it is purely about Good and Evil.

JCarter426
04-22-2008, 01:57 AM
Well, I'd disagree. K2 isn't about good and evil at all. I'm not 100% familiar with the system, but wouldn't characters like Canderous and G0-T0 be "lawful evil", while HK would be "chaotic evil", Kreia "chaotic neutral (or, dare I say, good)"?

Robespierre
04-22-2008, 02:07 AM
That's why I thought the definition of Canderous as "evil' was a bit...arbitrary. As HK-47 says "While Mandalore is effective at killing, he seems to derive little sport from it" - he doesn't kill for the fun of it, like HK.

I would say that Kreia is chaotic neutral. Though for most of the game she is "true neutral", since her true motives remain hidden.

Could you say that Visas was almost chaotic good? Or just neutral evil?

RedHawke
04-22-2008, 02:16 AM
Well, I'd disagree. K2 isn't about good and evil at all.
I strongly suggest you play the game again then... it is all about Good and Evil. :eyeraise:

The fact is that George Lucas himself has stated that Star Wars is all about good and evil, as that is what the whole story was based upon, stories of brave heros and imposing villans. K1 and K2 are no different, while K2 is more subtle it is still good vs evil.

JCarter426
04-22-2008, 02:26 AM
I strongly suggest you play the game again then... it is all about Good and Evil. :eyeraise:

I am playing the game again. I'm always replaying the game. :p

And it's not about good and evil; it's about choosing a side. "Isn't that the same thing?" No. :p

Robespierre
04-22-2008, 04:06 AM
And it's not about good and evil; it's about choosing a side. "Isn't that the same thing?" No.

Well it is about good and evil, but its also about the reasons why. The characters in KotOR aren't evil just because they are all anarchists and they aren't all good because they believe in doing "the right thing". I mean look at Kreia - people would argue that she's "evil" even though her intentions weren't just in the goal of total anarchy. But then again HK-47 is evil because he likes being evil. He even says that being nice is repulsive to him.

JCarter426
04-22-2008, 04:17 AM
Eh...I wouldn't say it's "about" good and evil...sure, there are good people and there are evil people, but it's not about good and evil in the sense that the Star Wars movies are about good vs evil.

RedHawke
04-23-2008, 01:28 AM
I am playing the game again. I'm always replaying the game. :p

And it's not about good and evil; it's about choosing a side. "Isn't that the same thing?" No. :p
Eh...I wouldn't say it's "about" good and evil...sure, there are good people and there are evil people, but it's not about good and evil in the sense that the Star Wars movies are about good vs evil.
Sorry but you are really missing something then...

Star Wars... all Star Wars is about struggles between good and evil, stammer all you want to the contrary, that is a fact.

Edit: I have it on pretty good authority that the alignment system from D&D was not even on the table for the D20 PnP Star Wars system, because of the universes black and white storylines, and GL's own statements. It is good and evil.

JCarter426
04-23-2008, 01:30 AM
Say what you will, but K2 wasn't about that at all. There was no fight between good and evil. It was about the Exile reconciling with the past, with her decision to defy the Council and fight the Mandalorians.

RedHawke
04-23-2008, 01:34 AM
Say what you will, but K2 wasn't about that at all. There was no fight between good and evil. It was about the Exile reconciling with the past, with her decision to defy the Council and fight the Mandalorians.
It was about Good and Evil and how the Exile's/Revan's decisions actually served one side over the other.

Unless you can provide hard proof to the contrary you are simply spitting in the wind.

jonathan7
04-23-2008, 09:23 AM
It was about Good and Evil and how the Exile's/Revan's decisions actually served one side over the other.

Unless you can provide hard proof to the contrary you are simply spitting in the wind.

TSL is my favourite SW game as it is alot 'greyer' than pretty much all other SW games, however it is still about Good v Evil; ultimatly despite the game being grey, given you can't get a prestige class unless your either good or bad it would seem it is still about Good v Evil.

While this new alignment system is interesting I think RH is correct in that evil is still evil; if you decide to shoot someone for sheer fun of it, or if you shot them so you could achieve the power you crave, still seems to me to just be evil.

Eagle Racer
04-23-2008, 02:04 PM
It was about Good and Evil and how the Exile's/Revan's decisions actually served one side over the other.

Unless you can provide hard proof to the contrary you are simply spitting in the wind.

Um.... I would say the entire conversation with G0T0 on his ship deals with order and chaos. G0T0 isn't interested in the good versus evil battle, he's out to preserve order in the galaxy. He offers you 2000 credits for every system you help stabilize on your journey. This may be more of an aside, but it's still present. To me TSL always stands out among Star Wars story lines, because there is more to it than good versus evil. You have the ever present risk of chaos running in the background. There isn't another stupid, huge cookie cutter war going on as the backdrop. It's a galaxy on the verge of self-destruction. And at the center of it all, you have potentially the most unique force wielder of them all.

Then there is the fact that in both games you can be good and disagree with the views of the Jedi. Just saying these games are about good vs. evil seems to belittle it somewhat. But then again, this game has plenty of the cookie cutter characters from the Star Wars Galaxy. Jedi council behaves exactly the same way as the council in the movies, making all the same blunders and suffering from all the same character flaws. Kriea plays a similar role to the exile to what Palpatine was to Anakin. But in the end you carve your own path and can be independent of both the Jedi and the Sith. Hell, you can tell the council there dead wrong about everything and earn lightside points...

On a side note, I find you last comment could have been put better/nicer given that you are a moderator here.

Salzella
04-23-2008, 03:06 PM
Legacy of the Force series isn't black and white. Perhaps not a brilliant precedent, but i would certainly say Jacen Solo qualifies as 'Lawful Evil', Ben Skywalker as 'Chaotic Good'. Plus, no matter what the universe actually is, for those who wish it was otherwise, it would be an excellent way to have a deeper playthrough and characterisation?

i was going to add something else, but i can't remember what it was. humph.

RedHawke
04-25-2008, 02:32 AM
Um.... I would say the entire conversation with G0T0 on his ship deals with order and chaos. G0T0 isn't interested in the good versus evil battle, he's out to preserve order in the galaxy.
True but G0-T0 is the exception, he isn't the main part of the story, stopping Nihilus is.

Even if the PC is acting out of their own evil intentions, good still triumphs because Nihilus the destroyer of worlds, the unending hunger is dead.

Just saying these games are about good vs. evil seems to belittle it somewhat.
Can't help that as George Lucas himself has stated this multiple times... The KotOR series being "Star Wars" has to follow suit, and does quite well.

Notice the lightside endings are listed as the "canonical' endings for K1 and TSL, this is because of this fact. ;)

On a side note, I find you last comment could have been put better/nicer given that you are a moderator here.
Really? There is nothing un-kind or wrong with what I said. In a debate you are allowed to ask for proof from the other debater when they make claims.

TKA-001
04-25-2008, 09:19 AM
Can't help that as George Lucas himself has stated this multiple times... The KotOR series being "Star Wars" has to follow suit, and does quite well.
Why are random statements by George Lucas taken as fact by so many people?

JCarter426
04-25-2008, 09:27 AM
Not to mention that he had nothing to do with either game.

jonathan7
04-25-2008, 09:45 AM
Why are random statements by George Lucas taken as fact by so many people?

Because its G-canon... Don't make me bring out Jae's infamous 6 degree's of canon....

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=174805&highlight=levels+canon

Gurges-Ahter
04-25-2008, 10:11 AM
Why are random statements by George Lucas taken as fact by so many people?

I agree that Lucas had nothing/little to nothing to do with the game, but many accept what he says as fact because he, as the creator, is the ultimate decider of what is canon and what isn't. He probably knows less of the EU than many that use this board though, so it's hard for many to easily accept his word as fact.

So, for the most part, I agree that we can't use Lucas as a validator of an argument for issues regarding KotOR; although his opinion should be considered in some cases, perhaps such as this one where the nature of the game, which is part of the EU, is in question.

Inyri
04-25-2008, 10:22 AM
Why are we upset that George said the games are about good and evil? It's true -- they are. However they're not only about good and evil. It's a rare thing that can only be interpreted in one way. :)

jonathan7
04-25-2008, 10:28 AM
Why are we upset that George said the games are about good and evil? It's true -- they are. However they're not only about good and evil. It's a rare thing that can only be interpreted in one way. :)

Silence infidel - the sacred texts can only be interpretated one way! ;) :D

Salzella
04-25-2008, 01:24 PM
Lucas Schmucas.

that's the most in-depth comment you're going to get out of me i'm afraid :xp:

Eagle Racer
04-25-2008, 09:39 PM
Hum, bringing up Jacen is a good point... Everything he does is driven by is desperate desire to overt chaos and total war. At least as first... And he does good things and bad things to achieve this goal along the way. Seeing as he's the main character of the current story line in the books...

Lucas also said in an interview, something about poetry and versus rhyming... Anakin blowing up the droid control ship in Episode One was symbolic of Luke blowing up the Death Star. So if we take Lucas's words as fact, then we are doomed to see the same story over and over again with new faces and places if we are lucky.

RedHawke
04-26-2008, 02:29 AM
Why are random statements by George Lucas taken as fact by so many people?
Because they are... perhaps you ought to read up on the state of things before you joust with people. ;)

Not to mention that he had nothing to do with either game.
(See below) But your point(s) are irrelevant, sorry mate.

I agree that Lucas had nothing/little to nothing to do with the game, but many accept what he says as fact because he, as the creator, is the ultimate decider of what is canon and what isn't. He probably knows less of the EU than many that use this board though, so it's hard for many to easily accept his word as fact.
Unfortunately for this argument something called Lucas Licencing proves this wrong, he does indeed have final "control" of what is allowed to be made/produced with the Star Wars name. Sorry.

So, for the most part, I agree that we can't use Lucas as a validator of an argument for issues regarding KotOR; although his opinion should be considered in some cases, perhaps such as this one where the nature of the game, which is part of the EU, is in question.
This would hold water except as stated above.

Basically this is like trying to argue what is Trek with Rodenberry, or what is Babylon 5 with Straczynski.

JCarter426
04-26-2008, 02:31 AM
Er...what exactly did he have to do with making either game? Did he write the script, or did he do some skinning and modeling?

Inyri
04-26-2008, 02:34 AM
He owns Star Wars. 'Nuff said. :)

So as RedHawke suggested, your point is irrelevant.

RedHawke
04-26-2008, 02:39 AM
Er...what exactly did he have to do with making either game? Did he write the script, or did he do some skinning and modeling?
Re-read my post I added why this is so... ;)

JCarter426
04-26-2008, 02:51 AM
So? Gene Rodenberry may have created Star Trek, but that doesn't mean that every single episode of every series shared his original vision. The same applies for any series in which the creator hands the work over to others, including Star Wars.

Inyri
04-26-2008, 02:54 AM
Yes, but if Gene Roddenberry decided he wanted to make a claim about that episode that didn't follow his original vision, it would be true because he created Star Trek.

JCarter426
04-26-2008, 03:12 AM
That still doesn't mean that the games have to be about good vs evil just because they take place in the Star Wars universe--in fact, they don't even take place in George Lucas' universe, as he considers the EU to be completely separate from the movies.

True but G0-T0 is the exception, he isn't the main part of the story, stopping Nihilus is.

Then why doesn't the game end when the player kills Nihilus?

Notice the lightside endings are listed as the "canonical' endings for K1 and TSL, this is because of this fact. ;)

Not true; K2 doesn't have a canonical ending yet. And even if the ending is happy, that doesn't mean the story was about good vs evil.

Rogue Nine
04-26-2008, 03:24 AM
That still doesn't mean that the games have to be about good vs evil just because they take place in the Star Wars universe--in fact, they don't even take place in George Lucas' universe, as he considers the EU to be completely separate from the movies.
They can't be completely separate, as they still take place within Star Wars. It's not something George Lucas conceived himself, but it's still playing within the universe he created, albeit even longer ago than the Prequel and Original Trilogies.

The beautiful thing about the games is that we can each interpret it in our own ways. Some can see the whole good vs evil thing quite clearly, while others are not sure it's so cut and dried like that, especially with a game like the Sith Lords, where alignment isn't so obvious.

luckyariot
04-26-2008, 06:56 AM
Well... I agree that this does come down to good vs. evil. But TSL goes about it realistically. Nothing is truely pure good or evil (look at the actions of both the Jedi and the Sith, especially concerning the Exile and Revan, and neither are really something you want to admire), and in the end, the judgements made upon the characters' morality are based on your own interpretation. I like that, because the first game only touched over this slightly, and it makes situations seem more real and in-depth (if only they had finished... :()

However, no reason you can't apply the Chaos/Law theory, as long as you keep-in-mind that, like the good and evil labels, there are variables. Examples...

HK: Chaos-Evil, don't get me wrong; this is quite obvious. But remember that HK was made to be a killer, so it seems likely he was programmed this way, or even developed that rationale to funtion properly, like humans do. And, although he definitely enjoyed this job, it is notable how he views his kills as art, saying it is about "finesse, function" and "not body-count". Also note that, as a droid, he has little free will and cannot be truely held accountable for the acts he committed, as long as his master had given the orders, or his programming interpretted it that way.

We were created as a way of enforcing a certain galactic view of our masters, of imposing our masters' will upon the galaxy, through extermination of other organics. It is not our choice who we kill and it was not our choice to determine if we could sacrifice ourselves in the persuit of our mission.
Interesting self-analysis, no?

Canderous: Between Law and Chaos/Neutral, this is much more difficult to judge, given how Canderous developed during the game, but my guess is that this is how he would stand at the end of the second game. It is clear that Canderous is not a blood-thirsty person, but as a Mandalorian, battles are his life. As a military commander, he had to make nessisary sacrifices and attack unarmed worlds, culture and strategy demanding it. But he also respected his opponents (like Revan and the Exile), and didn't hold grudges like the 'lighter' characters.

I've killed many people. I can't say I'm proud of it, but I have. Criminals, competitors, businessmen, police… women, children…
Canderous is tough to judge because he is pretty down-to-earth, realistic. He isn't sentimental or blood-thirsty, but he does what he needs to do, for himself and his people. Overall, I would say he makes choices that many real people would make.

Anyone able to judge Visas? She's difficult, and it was only when I faced Nihilus that I was sure she was on the Exile's side.

RedHawke
04-28-2008, 02:39 AM
That still doesn't mean that the games have to be about good vs evil just because they take place in the Star Wars universe--in fact, they don't even take place in George Lucas' universe, as he considers the EU to be completely separate from the movies.
I have already answered you on this, simply regurgitating the same argument over and over doesn't change the facts.

While the EU may be completely seperate, it still has to follow the guidelines he sets forth and Lucas Licencing enforces.

Then why doesn't the game end when the player kills Nihilus?
Actually, the game is called The Sith Lords (Note the S at the end), Nihilus' destruction is paramount for the galaxies survival. But, Kreia and her pawn Sion also need to be delt with.

Not true; K2 doesn't have a canonical ending yet. And even if the ending is happy, that doesn't mean the story was about good vs evil.
Unfortunately you show your ignorance here... both games have 'canonical endings' for KotOR I Male Lightsided Revan and TSL is Female Lightsided Exile. This is a fact.

JCarter426
04-28-2008, 02:45 AM
Unfortunately you show your ignorance here... both games have 'canonical endings' for KotOR I Male Lightsided Revan and TSL is Female Lightsided Exile. This is a fact.

"No. We've avoided anything concrete about the canon ending. The only reason why we decided on a canon gender for the Revan and the exile was out of editorial necessity." --Leland Chee, here (http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=152583&start=1005)

Shem
04-28-2008, 05:46 AM
Why are random statements by George Lucas taken as fact by so many people?:lol: :lol: :lol:

I hope you realize that anything said about Star Wars by Lucas is fact based on the fact that he created it, he controls it. His will is law when it comes to Star Wars. He's the king, the dictator, the emperor, etc, when it comes to the Star Wars universe. Anything he says is law according when it comes to Star Wars. Anybody who argues what Lucas says has lost the argument as soon as the argument presented left their mouth.

TKA-001
04-28-2008, 09:30 AM
I guess that means the Invisible Hand is a Star Destroyer.

adamqd
04-28-2008, 11:47 AM
I know what your sayin TKA :)

George IS the be all and end all of Star Wars, but if he turns round and says that the invisible hand is a Star Destroyer then so be it, but two weeks later an official guide to ships comes out and it states that the invisible hand is in fact a Providence-class carrier/destroyer, then it is, because, by his own word he has given Lucas Licensing Dominion over the EU, (That includes Film related novels, incredible cross sections etc) therefore by having the official Logo it has been passed by Lucas, whether or not he'll bring something out to ret-conn that fact is his prerogative :) so yes, he is the ultimate Master, but it's not that cut n' dry.

Regarding K2, I think K2 isn't really about Good and Evil, but that's because it's a bit self indulgent and strays from Star Wars/its predecessor.

Da_man
04-29-2008, 01:03 AM
That still doesn't mean that the games have to be about good vs evil just because they take place in the Star Wars universe--in fact, they don't even take place in George Lucas' universe, as he considers the EU to be completely separate from the movies.

Who says it has to be either good or evil, it iss completely possible to be neutral, though you will inevitably be somewhat light- or dark-sided. ANd for the Chaos/law thing, they have to exist in balance, or the whole system collapses. In terms of the government, too much law and order, the people under you rebel. Too much Chaos, and nothing goes right, and again people rebel. Notice how both end the same. It's like Malcolm's Chaos Theory in Jurassic Park, there is a point where everthing is in balance, and everywhere else, it is utter destruction.

SilentScope001
04-29-2008, 01:20 AM
Guys, Star Wars is about Good/Evil. Therefore, so is TSL.

Problem is, however, is that it gets inverted. Good is Evil. Evil is Good. The evil guys like Kreia and Revan (both DS) gains more support than the good guys represented by the Jedi Council and Atris (all of whom were LS). It's not at all 'realistic', would you really bow down to Saddam Hussien if you realize he was oppressing his own nation and expanding the Iraq empire in order to protect the Earth from an invasion by aliens? It's just a twisted version.

luckyariot
04-29-2008, 07:06 AM
It's not at all 'realistic', would you really bow down to Saddam Hussien if you realize he was oppressing his own nation and expanding the Iraq empire in order to protect the Earth from an invasion by aliens? It's just a twisted version.

...Actually it is realistic, since by your logic, there is only one point of view and Saddam Hussien's supporters all are evil and know it (or idoits/crazy). That is simply not true. Many good people think that causes like Hussien's are good ones. You will be hard-pressed to find many people who seriously think they are working for an evil cause and are alright with that, even the greedy ones have a problem with it.

Yes, Star Wars is about good vs. evil, but what that means is objective. There are different points of view and nothing is set in stone. Many people thought Revan was going the right way when he attacked the Republic, just look at Atton's dialouge and you'll see he didn't consider the Sith evil at first. The troops thought of the Jedi and the Council as evil, and not without reason.

Look at Atris! I wouldn't qualify her as good: manipulative and holding grudges, even before her fall... And I was horrified at what the Jedi tried to do to the Exile at the end of TSL, not to mention using Revan as a mind-slave...(don't care if I'm LS, that is something to be upset about) The Jedi Covenant is a pretty good example too-they aren't nessisarily evil (as a group) but they were pretty scary...

Oh, and many people would bow down to a despot and adopt their ideas, if they thought he/she might win. The Nazis. Austria. Hungary. Poland. Half of France. World War II. Look it up.

TKA-001
04-29-2008, 10:07 AM
Look at Atris! I wouldn't qualify her as good: manipulative and holding grudges, even before her fall...
Before? When?

And I was horrified at what the Jedi tried to do to the Exile at the end of TSL
Seems perfectly logical to me, since the Exile is the one responsible for setting off the MSG, causing this wound in the force stuff to hit the fan, killing hundreds across the planets of the game, and of course drawing the Council and the Sith to the same spot, which led to their certain deaths. What the hell were they supposed to do? Seems to me that their mistake was in not neutralizing the Exile sooner.

not to mention using Revan as a mind-slave...(don't care if I'm LS, that is something to be upset about)
Again, what course of action would have been better? You're just being biased due to the fact that the player is Revan.

The Jedi Covenant is a pretty good example too-they aren't nessisarily evil (as a group) but they were pretty scary...
Actually, they were evil, considering the fact that the Padawan Massacre at Taris somewhat damages their record, not to mention the severe tempers its members demonstrated. To say that they were Jedi at all is on the same level of rot as claiming that the Dark Jedi of the Hundred Year Darkness (circa 7,003 BBY) or (more recently) the Exile were Jedi, simply because they thought they were doing the right thing.

Miles Edgeworth
04-29-2008, 12:14 PM
"No. We've avoided anything concrete about the canon ending. The only reason why we decided on a canon gender for the Revan and the exile was out of editorial necessity." --Leland Chee, here (http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=152583&start=1005)

Except of course, The New Essential Chronology pretty much confirmed the lightside ending as canon. :xp:

Salzella
04-29-2008, 12:18 PM
Before? When?
Most notably in the recording of the Council at the Exile's trial, where she tries to punish the Exile for what she sees as her (Exile's) failings and fall, and has to be warned by (I think) Zez-Kai Ell not to let her anger at Revan overrule her rational judgement, or something along those lines. Put simply, she was not acting Masterly, if that's a word.

TKA-001
04-29-2008, 12:52 PM
"No. We've avoided anything concrete about the canon ending. The only reason why we decided on a canon gender for the Revan and the exile was out of editorial necessity." --Leland Chee, here
I must admit, it is pretty funny how he knowingly, deliberately, and blatantly contradicts his own canon sources, which directly state something which is opposed only by his word and his mythical "Holocron database".

JCarter426
04-29-2008, 03:09 PM
Except of course, The New Essential Chronology pretty much confirmed the lightside ending as canon. :xp:

Wasn't NEC; was NEGD. And it doesn't, either, since what happens in the HK factory has nothing to do with the Exile's alignment.

I must admit, it is pretty funny how he knowingly, deliberately, and blatantly contradicts his own canon sources, which directly state something which is opposed only by his word and his mythical "Holocron database".

That's his job. That's what they pay him to do, to contradict sources that are wrong. All retcons contradict one source or another. And again, NEGD doesn't actually establish the Exile as light sided.

luckyariot
04-29-2008, 03:28 PM
Wasn't NEC; was NEGD. And it doesn't, either, since what happens in the HK factory has nothing to do with the Exile's alignment.

But the guide also calls the Exile a heroine. Therefore, LSF. (shrugs)
Actually, they were evil, considering the fact that the Padawan Massacre at Taris somewhat damages their record, not to mention the severe tempers its members demonstrated. To say that they were Jedi at all is on the same level of rot as claiming that the Dark Jedi of the Hundred Year Darkness (circa 7,003 BBY) or (more recently) the Exile were Jedi, simply because they thought they were doing the right thing.
Once again, its tough to find a group that didn't think that what they were doing was right, Jedi-Sith and everything in-between. I was tying to say that the Convenant itself was not evil, but many of its members are getting there. The Padawan Massacre of Taris was a stupid and hasty move that would definitely qualify as evil-but the organization being evil is what I was arguing against. Clearly Haazen wasn't happy about their actions and some of the masters themselves feel guilty. (seen in Raana's nightmare's, etc.)

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think a more pure evil would be when the person stops caring about the morality of their actions, instead of needing to find a way to convince themselves and others that it is the right thing to do.

JCarter426
04-29-2008, 03:44 PM
But the guide also calls the Exile a heroine. Therefore, LSF. (shrugs)

She was a heroine during the Mandalorian Wars, was she not? And even a DS Exile is heroic during the final battle at Telos. One of the reasons that K2 isn't about good vs evil; whether the Exile is good or evil doesn't make a difference in the long run.

Gurges-Ahter
04-29-2008, 03:50 PM
She was a heroine during the Mandalorian Wars, was she not? And even a DS Exile is heroic during the final battle at Telos. One of the reasons that K2 isn't about good vs evil; whether the Exile is good or evil doesn't make a difference in the long run.

It doesn't make much of a difference on the outcome of the game, but it makes a huge difference to the person playing the Exile.

JCarter426
04-29-2008, 03:54 PM
Well, yes. But notice that the Exile's alignment does not have any major affect on the ending of the game; Nihilus, Sion, and Kreia all still die, and the Republic is saved.

Gurges-Ahter
04-29-2008, 04:09 PM
I agree with that statement; that the Exile's alignment does not affect the outcome of the game. However, I believe that's a different statement than "the game is not about good/evil (ls/ds)", since the person playing the game is greatly affected by the Exile's alignment.

JCarter426
04-29-2008, 04:15 PM
I see your point. However, I still wouldn't say that it's about good vs evil, since good and evil don't really fight, and neither one wins. Yes, if the Exile is LS she kills the DS Nihilus, but that's not the final battle; the final battle is between Kreia and the Exile. And while Kreia may be a backstabbing, conniving old hag, she's not a metaphor for evil.

So, I guess my point is that while the Exile may be a metaphor for good or evil, that doesn't necessarily mean that the game is about good vs evil, because the Exile has a diverse group of enemies, none of which are true representations of good or evil.

The game is really about the Exile making a choice, not which choice he or she makes.

Miles Edgeworth
04-29-2008, 05:30 PM
Wasn't NEC; was NEGD. And it doesn't, either, since what happens in the HK factory has nothing to do with the Exile's alignment.

Nope, in the The New Essential Chronology it says that Malachor V is finally destroyed, that only happens in the LS ending.

JCarter426
04-29-2008, 05:49 PM
Malachor's destruction wasn't LS Exile-only. And NEGD said it first. :xp:

And even if it were, Mr Chee's word is of a higher canon, whether anyone likes it or not.

TKA-001
04-29-2008, 06:32 PM
Words aren't canon, works are canon. At this point, you're simply making things up to "support" your own argument.

Miles Edgeworth
04-29-2008, 06:35 PM
Malachor's destruction wasn't LS Exile-only.

Pretty sure it is.

And NEGD said it first. :xp:

NEC was released before NEGD. :xp:

TKA-001
04-29-2008, 06:37 PM
Smiley face fight.

JCarter426
04-29-2008, 06:51 PM
Words aren't canon, works are canon.

Mr Chee decides which works are canon. Thus his word is of a higher level of canon, whether you like it or not.

Pretty sure it is.

Nope. Whether Malachor was destroyed depended on HK-47's decision in the factory, not the Exile's alignment.

NEC was released before NEGD. :xp:

Whoops, my bad.

TKA-001
04-29-2008, 07:04 PM
"No. We've avoided anything concrete about the canon ending. The only reason why we decided on a canon gender for the Revan and the exile was out of editorial necessity." --Leland Chee
He says the reason they had a canon ending was out of editorial necessity. That means that for that reason, that's what they decided on for canon. Which means that it's canon.

Nope. Whether Malachor was destroyed depended on HK-47's decision in the factory, not the Exile's alignment.
That is, it would have depended on that if the factory stuff actually happened.

Corinthian
04-29-2008, 07:16 PM
The HK Factory is not canon.

TKA-001
04-29-2008, 07:20 PM
Actually the NEGD retcons the factory back, but that's not relevant to the context of the game.

SilentScope001
04-30-2008, 11:48 AM
...Actually it is realistic, since by your logic, there is only one point of view and Saddam Hussien's supporters all are evil and know it (or idoits/crazy). That is simply not true. Many good people think that causes like Hussien's are good ones. You will be hard-pressed to find many people who seriously think they are working for an evil cause and are alright with that, even the greedy ones have a problem with it.

Well, I didn't want to use Hitler, because of fear of invoking Godwin's Law. You're right, but I wanted to make a point about the fact that people in RL may not wish to worship such a dictator.

What Revan did (falling to the DS, taking over the Republic, using the MSG to kill off Republic troops and convert Jedi to DS) is objectively evil by George Lucas' POV, and Revan knows it. He may be justified in what he has done, but it is still evil, and Evil is Evil. But Revan still have fans and support for what he has done. This may be because the player is Revan...or it may be because of other factors, such as the True Sith.

People can come up with any sort of viewpoint to justify their actions. And in real life, ethical relativism might be useful. But this is Star Wars. Ethical relativism is just plain wrong in the universe of George Lucas. There is a Good. There is an Evil.

JCarter426
04-30-2008, 12:46 PM
He says the reason they had a canon ending was out of editorial necessity. That means that for that reason, that's what they decided on for canon. Which means that it's canon.

No, he said that they chose a canonical gender for the Exile out of editorial necessity, but decided not to do so with the ending.


That is, it would have depended on that if the factory stuff actually happened.

As you said, the factory stuff did happen, and it has nothing to do with the Exile's alignment, even if it would have if it had made it into the final version of the game (which it didn't then, either).

TKA-001
04-30-2008, 02:27 PM
How does the word "heroine" not mean anything about alignment?

Thanatos9t
04-30-2008, 03:44 PM
I agree with TKA-001,

A "heroine" is the female version of a "hero", think about it you wouldn't call Palpatine a hero would you?

Hero = Good
Villain = Evil

JCarter426
04-30-2008, 03:55 PM
Again, the Exile was a heroine during the Mandalorian Wars. And no matter what NEC or NEGD says about the Exile's alignment, it isn't canon.

TKA-001
04-30-2008, 04:57 PM
Again, the Exile was a heroine during the Mandalorian Wars.
At this point, you're just splitting hairs. It's a fact that while it does not precisely state that the Exile is light-sided, that is what the sentence means.

And no matter what NEC or NEGD says about the Exile's alignment, it isn't canon.
I'd like you to name a single canonical source that contradicts the NEGD statements (let alone overrules them).

SilentScope001
04-30-2008, 05:12 PM
How does the word "heroine" not mean anything about alignment?

Heroine: the principal female character in a literary or dramatic work
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/heroine

You can be a prinicipal character without being a LS Jedi, you know?

That being said, in every single LF's work, if you have a choice, the game's canon ending is that of Light-Side. So, in the end, Exile's canon alignment is LS. But as long as you can choose your alignment in the KOTOR series for Exile and Revan, canon can be safely disregarded for how you would like to RP.

TKA-001
04-30-2008, 07:58 PM
Well, that's obvious, but how a person wants to play the game isn't what the discussion was about.

JCarter426
04-30-2008, 08:09 PM
It's a fact that while it does not precisely state that the Exile is light-sided, that is what the sentence means.

Says you, maybe. If the statement is ambiguous, then how is it even relevant to anything? You can't take any meaning from it.

That being said, in every single LF's work, if you have a choice, the game's canon ending is that of Light-Side. So, in the end, Exile's canon alignment is LS. But as long as you can choose your alignment in the KOTOR series for Exile and Revan, canon can be safely disregarded for how you would like to RP.

The same applied for the PC's gender...before the Exile. Just because that's the way it's always been, doesn't mean it's always going to be that way.

And the Essential Guides have made plenty of statements that were overridden in the past. This is but one of them.

TKA-001
04-30-2008, 08:34 PM
Says you, maybe.
Wrong. Says common sense and basic interpretation skills.

Da_man
05-01-2008, 01:13 AM
^ Tone it down a little, guys. THis is starting to become a flame war, and no one wants this thread locked.

RedHawke
05-01-2008, 01:15 AM
"No. We've avoided anything concrete about the canon ending. The only reason why we decided on a canon gender for the Revan and the exile was out of editorial necessity." --Leland Chee, here (http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=152583&start=1005)
Uh? This proves my statement. ;)

You can feel free to bug Prime about it further (as Prime is my original source on this topic, though I have lost his link to said info to time the EU Forum (http://www.lucasforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=442) might be a good place to search for this topic) but there was a blanket statement made by LL that states the good/lightside endings (for games) are automatically considered canon.

JCarter426
05-01-2008, 02:52 PM
Uh? This proves my statement. ;)

You can feel free to bug Prime about it further (as Prime is my original source on this topic, though I have lost his link to said info to time the EU Forum (http://www.lucasforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=442) might be a good place to search for this topic) but there was a blanket statement made by LL that states the good/lightside endings (for games) are automatically considered canon.

Mr Chee's comment explicitly states the contrary. Neither ending of K2 can be considered canon at this point.

jonathan7
05-01-2008, 04:46 PM
Hero = Good
Villain = Evil

Incorrect, the conception of the hero varies... Overview found here; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero

And would some of you chill out, enough with the nerdrage already :p Its only a canon debate.

I'm still of the opinion that RH is correct; JC, I know alot of people who consider that the K2 ending is LS canon, and I'm sure RH or Prime, can find the statement of such...

JCarter426
05-01-2008, 04:51 PM
Oi...I've already provided a statement to the contrary. But even so, it doesn't matter. The DS ending is virtually identical, because the game isn't about good vs evil.

jonathan7
05-01-2008, 04:54 PM
Oi...I've already provided a statement to the contrary. But even so, it doesn't matter. The DS ending is virtually identical, because the game isn't about good vs evil.

*smacks head* :p

RedHawke
05-02-2008, 02:42 AM
Mr Chee's comment explicitly states the contrary. Neither ending of K2 can be considered canon at this point.
If they fixed a gender they have also fixed an ending... it is part of the process. That post smecks of placating the masses some by being ambiguous, it really isn't concrete.

Especially for K1. The LS ending is the 'canon' one (evidence is clear in the SW Databanks writeup on Malak (http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/darthmalak/index.html));
Revan, a Jedi captive, was stripped of all memories of a Sith past, and was turned into an agent of the Republic. Jedi observers closely watched Revan as the "reformed" Sith traced the path blazed during the initial search for the Star Forge. In this manner, agents of the Republic were able to find the station and confront Malak.

This confrontation erupted into a massive battle as Republic fleet forces arrived to attack the Star Forge. Endless streams of ships poured forth from the Star Forge, striking against the amassed warships of the Republic. The Sith Lord had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from chained Jedi captives. He replenished his life force from the captives by draining theirs. Malak was nearly unstoppable, but the Republic emerged from that epic conflict victorious, as the Star Forge was eventually destroyed.
Now TSL's ending was left more similar to assist in making a sequel... as it is not an easy thing to pull off following a game with such a distinctive set of endings that K1 had, as Obsidian found out, hence TSL was constructed the way it was.

because the game isn't about good vs evil.
Darth Nihilus, devourer of worlds, is a great evil and must be stopped... check!
Darth Sion serves Kreia and is a corrupting influence on the Force with his immortality and is destroyed... check!
Darth Traya/Kreia, hates the Force and wishes it destroyed and uses the Exile to become the 'tool' of its destruction, Kreia is defeated... check!

Sounds like "evil" to me.

The Exile, no matter what path actually chosen, destroys these evils... hence 'good' wins the day and the galaxy continues on.

While I admit the story is more subtle than K1's was, it is still a good vs. evil story.

Can you please point out the exact specifics of the not good and evil story points (the main story only, remember)?

Totenkopf
05-02-2008, 03:54 PM
But if evil destroys evil for clearly selfish reasons, is that really "good"? Especially when you can't say what the intentions of a DS Exile will end up being anyway.

note: I'm NOT arguing GvE or LvC here.

Gurges-Ahter
05-02-2008, 07:18 PM
Before and after these discussions I don't see any way to get around TSL being about good and evil, like all Star Wars stories seem to be.

Even if you say it's about "making a choice", that choice is about being good or evil.

JCarter426
05-02-2008, 08:21 PM
The the choice doesn't matter, because it ends the same either way because--

I give up. :(

SilentScope001
05-02-2008, 09:55 PM
The the choice doesn't matter

The Choice does matter. Remember, if the Exile turns DS, you get the cutscene: "Ascending the Dark Throne", implying, of course, the Exile takes over the Sith Order.

It is a story about Good Versus Evil, yes, it has to be. But, that doesn't mean a person can be an moral relativist. They can. They'll just be shunned.

RedHawke
05-06-2008, 04:15 AM
But if evil destroys evil for clearly selfish reasons, is that really "good"? Especially when you can't say what the intentions of a DS Exile will end up being anyway.
In the case of TSL yes it is, see 'good' is served either way becuse the destruction of the 3 Sith Lords allows for the continued existance of the galaxy at large. While the Exile's DS intentions might be for ill as well, it is a far lesser ill than say devouring whole planets or the further corruption of the force by the existance of the current Sith Lords.

Either way the galaxy continues on... life is served. 'Good' wins the day... even though with a DS Exile it might only be a pyrrhic victory for 'good'.

TKA-001
05-06-2008, 09:33 AM
Doesn't Traya at the end of the game tell the player (if dark-sided) that he or she just mucked up all of the planets and will cause them to become like Malachor or something?

Gavroche
05-06-2008, 01:36 PM
Nope. What Traya says is that
1/ Telos will become one big and influent technological center thanks to Czerka. The only drawback is that Telosians will still be haunted by Karath's slaughter.
2/ Hutts and the Exchange will fight for Nar Shaddaa's control as the latter starts to get more and more power (thanks to the Exile). It will become even worse for Refugees.
3/ Onderon will keep its unity and culture from separating from the Republic, unlike the LS ending where Talia ends destroying completly the planet's customs.
4/ Dantooine will become a mercenaries and smugglers planet. Nobody will remember that Jedi were once there.

I guess that except for Dantooine and Nar Shaddaa, planets' fate are fairly good.
<<
>>
Well, from a certain point of view, of course... ^^

JediMasterJambi
05-07-2008, 03:25 AM
I'm not to sure what Law/Chaos situation means, but I think it could be applicable.

The Jedi have the job of attempting to bring balance to the force, while Sith try to cause chaos to it.
Nhil could have definatley been considered chaotic in the fact that he would have basically killed everything. (Sith aka Evil included)

luckyariot
06-18-2008, 08:25 AM
Doesn't Traya at the end of the game tell the player (if dark-sided) that he or she just mucked up all of the planets and will cause them to become like Malachor or something?
I think it was more on the lines of the echos from all the death and darkness surrounding Malachor V to eventually spread across the galaxy and smother lives connected to the force (basically everyone but the Exile), killing most of them in the process. That's what I remember anyway.
She was a heroine during the Mandalorian Wars, was she not? And even a DS Exile is heroic during the final battle at Telos.
:confused: Really? I think I missed something, but the Exile's actions during the Mandalorian Wars (mostly at the final battle) were at least decently contraversal and not always heroic. And the DS Exile was heroic? If this is about Nihilus's death, I don't know if that was heroism or rather making sure the guy doesn't consume everything and everyone in the galaxy. An empty galaxy is useful to no one, so stopping Nihilus being heroic... I guess its subjective to debate for DS Exile.
I agree with that statement; that the Exile's alignment does not affect the outcome of the game.
*sigh*:¬: Yes, sadly the more visible effect of DS/LS, especially on your party is badly butchered by cuts. Rub salt in the gaping wound why don't ya? :xp: But, originally, many of the main characters would die due to the choices you make (and some would turn against you), and the fates of the worlds you visit were also more extreme-just look at the cut content where a DS Exile allows the ruined Ravanger to crash into Citadel Station and pretty much demolish it! ...Now consider the amount of people on that thing...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR9VtHF5QFQ
:drama:...It still looks amazing everytime I watch it... And they cut it.:disaprove

Lord Foley
06-18-2008, 08:33 AM
The Jedi have the job of attempting to bring balance to the force, while Sith try to cause chaos to it.

I'm not so sure about that. It wasn't until almost every Jedi in the galaxy was killed that balance was brought to the Force. They never really go into what is meant by 'balance', but I think the Jedi had to die before it could happen. The Jedi served the Republic, really. They weren't trying to balance the Force.

JediMasterJambi
06-29-2008, 08:39 PM
I'm not so sure about that. It wasn't until almost every Jedi in the galaxy was killed that balance was brought to the Force. They never really go into what is meant by 'balance', but I think the Jedi had to die before it could happen. The Jedi served the Republic, really. They weren't trying to balance the Force.

I like your thinking.
I was speaking in idealization however.
The ideal Jedi brings balance to the force while the ideal Sith will cause chaos.

Yoda had already stated that manny Jedi of that era were arrogant, and quick to action. Even the higher-ups. Manny of the Jedi in that era had lost their ideals, lost sight of their true task IMHO.
Anakins tragic fall to the darkside led him to kill tons of Jedi. The few that were spared he eventually hunted down till basically Yoda and Obi were all that remaind. I consider Anakins Prophecy to be the ultimate storyline that unfolds within the 6 movies in total. IMHO Anakin was basically the ultimate purge. He was essential to the downfall of both the Jedi and the Sith of that era. After his love for his son was triumphant he killed the LAST Sith, he himself died, leaving his son to train a new generation of reformed Jedi as guardians.
Really, the Comics they have after that are nice an all. (Resurrecting Boba Fett, Palpatine, and Han having a son...Anakin Solo...) But big GLs vision ends there for me as a fan to his story. All the nice little fantasy stories after that are 2nd rate IMHO. Unless GL comes out with 7,8, and 9. ;)

Da_Man_2423
06-29-2008, 08:58 PM
Unless GL comes out with 7,8, and 9. ;)

Every Star Wars fan's dream. I'm pretty sure he's stated that he isn't making anymore, forgot where I read that from though.

luckyariot
06-30-2008, 07:20 AM
True, but then, he also said that he had decided not to make the prequels either...

ForeverNight
06-30-2008, 01:15 PM
Nevermind the fact, that prior to the prequels' release, he had stated that it was going to be a trilogy of trilogies...

So, GL, provided your reading this, GET OFF YOUR REAR AND MAKE THE STUPID THINGS.

@Topic: I, personally, like the alignment system that AD&D uses, the Chaotic, Neutral, Law and Good, Evil, Neutral.

You can apply it to any situation and have it work. So, even though Star Wars is more of a Good vs. Evil type story, it can still be applied and work.

I just don't get why Bioware didn't used it in KotOR, seeing as NWN has it and the Engine is based off of the NWN Engine. Maybe they had a decent reason... you never know!

luckyariot
07-29-2008, 10:34 AM
Uh... I really didn't expect to come back and find this thread in 'flames'. :sweat:

To be on topic, while K2 does keep with the SW idea of good vs. evil, it is much more subtle, more characters and actions are morally ambiguous, and overall it is rather grey. It has depth (where its finished) where K1 was sometimes lacking... whether you played LS or DS.

ChAiNz.2da
07-29-2008, 11:26 AM
Uh... I really didn't expect to come back and find this thread in 'flames'. :sweat:
Me either.. fixed ;)

Let's keep it cool gang. Posts minus the personal attacks this time. - Cz

whatthehell
07-31-2008, 05:04 AM
i believe the droids are all nuetral, simply because they can be reprogramed into being good or evil

bally3000
08-06-2008, 05:24 AM
well when i was young i used to llove being the dark side cause u get more wepons money ect but now am older i seem to put myself in the persons shoes and i cannot be evil its so strange. its like i could kill this guy here for speaking to me in a rash way but then wht would his family be like with out him... lol but the light side feels so much better =D