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DarthJebus05
05-05-2008, 11:59 PM
If you have the time, watch these before reading:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=ecTE6lXI-m0

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=gZUzFYwZlXA&feature=related

**

Now, I don't believe the world will end. Due to a few reasons:

-The prophecies could have been forged. Since the people who made them and told everyone, will obviously wouldn't be around in 2012.

-The calendar mentioned at the start of the first video might not have been completed.

-Jesus is meant to come back and save us someday? Will he stop this supposed Doom Day? I admit that I don't know much about Jesus, as I'm not catholic.

-There were a lot of wars back in the ancient days, so it wouldn't be a stretch to say there will be war during 2012.

-People who read her prophecies, such as Emperor Constantine, his parents could have named him that because of the prophecy.

What do you guys think? Do you think the world will end? Or a load of nonsense?

Ravnas
05-06-2008, 01:21 AM
Well if you mean if we believe resources will become non-existent and we'll all die of starvation, or if The sun goes supernova or if the Klingons show up :D then yes I do believe the world is going to end but not in the context of this situation.

MdKnightR
05-06-2008, 03:14 AM
... I don't know much about Jesus, as I'm not catholic.


You assume that Catholics know much about Jesus. :xp:

But seriously, I think its a bunch of hokus-pokus. Sure, there will be a time when our world will come tumbling down, but I doubt anyone knows for sure when that will happen.

Corinthian
05-06-2008, 03:15 AM
From what I'm given to understand about these Mayan Calendars, December 21st, 2012, is just the end of their 12th 'Baktun', and beginning of their 13th. I'm frankly more concerned about June 6th, 2066, at 6:56 AM.

DarthJebus05
05-06-2008, 03:26 AM
I also heard from a friend just before, that Jehovah Witnesses predicted a apocalypse sometime in 1977.

Ztalker
05-06-2008, 06:43 AM
Imo,

If you believe in a god...you believe in his/her/it's mercy and your connection with said god. Not that the god will destroy you.
At least, I think of it that way. Faith can support you, you have someone to talk too. Something to give you meaning in life. And paranoia talk of destroying the world is NOT that.

I respect every faith out there, but again imo, it goes against the...fundament of faith.

McTitan
05-06-2008, 07:09 AM
This doomsday thing is just like the millenium bug.
people just KNEW it would happen and claimed to have proof.
but when the year turned 2000 nothing happened!
that's why I don't believe prophecies.
but it's fun to see people make a shelter or so for what is supposed to happen december 21st 2012.

but don't misunderstand me I do respect them and their beliefs, I just don't believe it.

Pho3nix
05-06-2008, 08:31 AM
I also heard from a friend just before, that Jehovah Witnesses predicted a apocalypse sometime in 1977.
Yeah, they predict the apocalypse every now and then. :xp:

Arcesious
05-06-2008, 08:54 AM
Prophecies are never neccessarily true unless if they really happen. Therwe is no solid-enough proof that this will happen, because it hasn't happened yet, so it's impossible to be sure that it will happen. Unless if scientists are able to prove that it will undoubtedly happen using all those massively complex mathematical equations...
Edit: A lot of these people back then also beleived in a flat earth and the geocentric theory... So, that pretty much makes msot of them not very creditable as scientists...

Edit: This is hilarious, which I found searching the web...
http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm

Jae Onasi
05-06-2008, 09:07 AM
I think all it means is that particular Mayan calendar ends and a new one begins.

Nedak
05-06-2008, 09:20 AM
If it ends, it better end in a cool way.

But think about it, we're all going to die anyways.. If the world ends (not saying I want it to happen AT ALL) at least you died on an epic day.

JCarter426
05-06-2008, 01:44 PM
This is hilarious, which I found searching the web...
http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm
:rofl:

Anyway, regarding 12/21/12...I don't believe it. Not one word of it. All of these "prophecies" are eerily similar, yes, but one has to remember that the same civilizations' accounts of the past are eerily similar as well; every civilization has a flood story, and they all have a doomsday. It's just a coincidence that they appear to be on the same day (I say "appear" because there's no evidence that the I Ching or Revelations actually set that date as a doomsday). And even the ones that do are just coincidence, which actually is common (it's called clustering). So don't worry, people. :)

Actually, there is one thing I'm worried about--the polar shift, which actually has more substance behind it than some "prophecy".

mimartin
05-06-2008, 02:06 PM
Doomsday - December 21st 2012 Well that is going to put a damper on the Christmas holiday. On the bright side I guess I donít need to do my Christmas shopping come 2012.

If you believe in God, then you have no way to predict the end, at least according to the Bible.

If you donít believe in God then you have no way to predict the end without some type of evidence.

I have enough to worry about without filling my mind with thing outside of my control.
I'm frankly more concerned about June 6th, 2066, at 6:56 AM.I'm not. Either I will already be taking a dirt nap or too old to care.

TheRogueForums
12-26-2008, 04:05 AM
Right. Got this idea from a thread that started to veer slightly off-topic.

2012. A year in the minds of pretty much every conspiracy theorist, alarmist, and quite a few other people. From the wiki:


2012 is claimed by some with New age beliefs to be a great year of spiritual transformation (or alternatively an apocalypse). There is disagreement among believers whether 2012 will see an end of civilization, or humanity will be elevated to a higher level.

Many esoteric sources interpret the completion of the thirteenth B'ak'tun cycle in the Long Count of the Maya calendar (which occurs on December 21 by the most widely held correlation) to mean there will be a major change in world order.

Astrologer John Jenkins has asserted that on this date, there will be "an extremely close conjunction of the northern hemisphere winter solstice sun with the crossing point of the Galactic equator and the ecliptic", an event that will not be repeated for thousands of years.

Several authors have published works which claim that a major, world-changing event will take place in 2012:

* The 1997 book The Bible Code by Michael Drosnin claims that, according to certain algorithms of the Bible code, an asteroid or comet will collide with the Earth.
* The 2006 book 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl by Daniel Pinchbeck discusses theories of a possible global awakening to psychic connection by the year 2012, creating a noosphere.
* Riley Martin claims that Biaviian aliens will allow passage aboard their 'Great Mother Ship' when the Earth is 'transformed' in 2012.
* Terence McKenna's numerological novelty theory suggests a point of singularity in which humankind will go through a great shift in consciousness.

So, what are your thoughts on the year of fear? Will 2012 bring death and destruction, or usher in a new era of peace and tranquility? Is it prophesy? Divine Fate? Self-fulfilling Prophesy?

vanir
12-26-2008, 07:30 AM
I've had this discussion before on another website. A dedicated research into the Mayan calendar, which is the source of these assertions displays quite clearly no particular significance to the year. That would seem quite logical since the Mayan calendar's palaeontological significance is the sheer amount of math involved, which was previously thought inconceivable among ancient civilisations. Similar consideration for Egyptian construction-engineering excludes any necessity for extra-terrestrial influences in pyramid construction. These observations disappoint the overly imaginative perhaps, although strictly speaking such flights of spiritualist and new age fantasy are really grounded in arrogance towards the scientific and academic understanding of past civilisations.

The Mayan calendar is constructed amid a series of cycles which are seasonally, lunar and solar based and highly accurate, more accurate than ours. They didn't need leap years or periodic adjustments. But it takes a lot of effort, a great deal of math to make one calendar cycle and each must be calculated individually.
What is most likely is this: being that spending all the time to calculate thirteen total cycles covered not only some period of centuries into Mayan history but also millenia into the future, and this feat probably took a few years by dedicated high priests to accomplish, it was probably thought that simply no more than thirteen would ever be needed. If it were, if the civilisation continued millenia in the future, another thousand years worth of calendars could be calculated then.

That's the significance of 2012. A wonton misinterpretation by excitable anti-academics.

Tommycat
12-26-2008, 07:41 AM
I've had this discussion before on another website. A dedicated research into the Mayan calendar, which is the source of these assertions displays quite clearly no particular significance to the year. That would seem quite logical since the Mayan calendar's palaeontological significance is the sheer amount of math involved, which was previously thought inconceivable among ancient civilisations. Similar consideration for Egyptian construction-engineering excludes any necessity for extra-terrestrial influences in pyramid construction. These observations disappoint the overly imaginative perhaps, although strictly speaking such flights of spiritualist and new age fantasy are really grounded in arrogance towards the scientific and academic understanding of past civilisations.

The Mayan calendar is constructed amid a series of cycles which are seasonally, lunar and solar based and highly accurate, more accurate than ours. They didn't need leap years or periodic adjustments. But it takes a lot of effort, a great deal of math to make one calendar cycle and each must be calculated individually.
What is most likely is this: being that spending all the time to calculate thirteen total cycles covered not only some period of centuries into Mayan history but also millenia into the future, and this feat probably took a few years by dedicated high priests to accomplish, it was probably thought that simply no more than thirteen would ever be needed. If it were, if the civilisation continued millenia in the future, another thousand years worth of calendars could be calculated then.

That's the significance of 2012. A wonton misinterpretation by excitable anti-academics.

Yeah but it sounds cooler to say "Aliens helped them" or "They're predicting the future" than to say "they were better at math than we thought." At least to the general public.

vanir
12-26-2008, 07:47 AM
:( I know.

And thus we lose the lessons of the past.

Tommycat
12-26-2008, 07:56 AM
:( I know.

And thus we lose the lessons of the past.

yeah, but lets face it, the erality of it just isn't flashy enough for the general public to take in. You can't make cool flashy hollywood movies about people being good at math(notes 21)... er... about ancient people being good at math... Add in aliens and/or the end of the world... Popcorn sells.

Astor
12-26-2008, 07:57 AM
2012. A year in the minds of pretty much every conspiracy theorist, alarmist

That should be enough for people not to take it seriously.

So, what are your thoughts on the year of fear? Will 2012 bring death and destruction, or usher in a new era of peace and tranquility? Is it prophesy? Divine Fate? Self-fulfilling Prophesy?

Apart from it being the year of the next Olympics, I don't see anything to be worried about. :)

jonathan7
12-26-2008, 08:42 AM
Apart from it being the year of the next Olympics, I don't see anything to be worried about. :)

Nothing to worry apart from the fact we are all going to die as the Terminators will have there judgement day!!!!!!!!!!

Joking :D

More seriously, if you take the Bible seriously (some of you will, some of you won't), it says even Jesus doesn't know when the second coming is happening, and that God won't cause a mass extinction of human beings again.

Personally I don't see any doom in 2012, apart from all other sports teams being doomed by Britain, being top of the Medals table at the Olympics :D

jrrtoken
12-26-2008, 08:58 AM
Nowhere in most of the Mayan inscriptions does it strictly say that 2012 would be the end of the world. That's more or less the interpretation of conspiracy theorists. To the Mayans, the end of each baktun, or long count cycle, was a time of great jubilation, not something to be feared. Additionally, there have even been dates that went beyond the last baktun, so that does show that at least some Mayan did not believe that 2012 was the end of everything.

EnderWiggin
12-26-2008, 12:16 PM
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=188530

Merged threads -- j7

_EW_

Fredi
12-26-2008, 01:20 PM
I dont belive the world will end soon, so I'm cool. lol

jawathehutt
12-26-2008, 01:47 PM
I'm making $400 on that day from various friends who apparently haven't figured out that if we all die I don't have to pay them.

TheRogueForums
12-26-2008, 02:19 PM
That's actually a good idea. I might try that.

Rev7
12-26-2008, 02:43 PM
12/21/2012 is actually my mom's birthday. :indif:

I am not fearful of it at all. I simply don't think that the world is gonna end that day.

Darth Avlectus
12-26-2008, 05:02 PM
<sigh> I KNEW IT. The moment I mentioned it, *somebody* was going to make a thread about it within one week.

If you have the time, watch these before reading:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=ecTE6lXI-m0

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=gZUzFYwZlXA&feature=related

**


Whoops, looks lie they've been removed.

Now, I don't believe the world will end. Due to a few reasons:

-The prophecies could have been forged. Since the people who made them and told everyone, will obviously wouldn't be around in 2012.

-The calendar mentioned at the start of the first video might not have been completed.

-Jesus is meant to come back and save us someday? Will he stop this supposed Doom Day? I admit that I don't know much about Jesus, as I'm not catholic.

-There were a lot of wars back in the ancient days, so it wouldn't be a stretch to say there will be war during 2012.

-People who read her prophecies, such as Emperor Constantine, his parents could have named him that because of the prophecy.

What do you guys think? Do you think the world will end? Or a load of nonsense?

No. Not really. If anything will happen that is a big disaster, I seriously doubt it'll be directly of divine intervention. Also I seriously doubt whatever it is will be SOO bad that it wipes out the entire population of earth.

-The prohecies could definitely be forged--the people who originally wrote about jesus did so ~85 years after jesus died...or to the best I can remember some supposedly academic institution has determined. Somewhere in israel. Frankly, true or not--it is what I have heard and I don't have any way of confirming or discrediting it. Don't care in any case.

- incompleted or maybe the "calendar" has only so much time in a cycle before it started over again...and the person didn't feel like making another
cycle after finishing the first. LOL I haven't taken the time to check but supposedly 1972 is the exact mm/dd to days of the week schedule of 2000.

-Even if it wouldn't be a stretch, wars happen all the time so it means little to me that "another war will start". Big deal.

<snip> I'm frankly more concerned about June 6th, 2066, at 6:56 AM. :rolleyes:
Why?

This doomsday thing is just like the millenium bug.
people just KNEW it would happen and claimed to have proof.
but when the year turned 2000 nothing happened!
that's why I don't believe prophecies.
but it's fun to see people make a shelter or so for what is supposed to happen december 21st 2012.

but don't misunderstand me I do respect them and their beliefs, I just don't believe it.
That day I major time L'd-MAO!
Hmm. A healthy skeptic...I think I like you already!!!

Well, it never hurts to stock up on supplies to get by in hard economic times! ;) Yeah the lunacy is a little bit funny to watch, though.

Yeah, they predict the apocalypse every now and then. :xp:

Each time it was nill or it really sucked as an apocalypse.

Prophecies are never neccessarily true unless if they really happen. Therwe is no solid-enough proof that this will happen, because it hasn't happened yet, so it's impossible to be sure that it will happen. Unless if scientists are able to prove that it will undoubtedly happen using all those massively complex mathematical equations...
Edit: A lot of these people back then also beleived in a flat earth and the geocentric theory... So, that pretty much makes msot of them not very creditable as scientists...

Edit: This is hilarious, which I found searching the web...
http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm

Nostradamus came to something like that...that there may be some kind of mathematical equation or algorithm that roughly charts "flare ups" w.r.t. activity and interaction of the human race.

Similarly...some french botanist who was also a mathematician discovered some number that kept occurring in nature, plants. Eventually came to call it what we now know as "e" or the "natural log". Oiler (don't know the correct spelling) was his name.

<snip> That would seem quite logical since the Mayan calendar's palaeontological significance is the sheer amount of math involved, which was previously thought inconceivable among ancient civilisations.

There is lots we don't know about history. And tons of coverup from those who run everything.

Similar consideration for Egyptian construction-engineering excludes any necessity for extra-terrestrial influences in pyramid construction. These observations disappoint the overly imaginative perhaps, although strictly speaking such flights of spiritualist and new age fantasy are really grounded in arrogance towards the scientific and academic understanding of past civilisations.

Sadly.

The Mayan calendar is constructed amid a series of cycles which are seasonally, lunar and solar based and highly accurate, more accurate than ours. They didn't need leap years or periodic adjustments. But it takes a lot of effort, a great deal of math to make one calendar cycle and each must be calculated individually.
Refer to above, like I said, the guy making the calendar probably just said "screw it".


:( I know.

And thus we lose the lessons of the past.

Ah. A major discovery, that is. Critical to mass deception, yet so simple.

That should be enough for people not to take it seriously. But they still do. :)

Nothing to worry apart from the fact we are all going to die as the Terminators will have there judgement day!!!!!!!!!!

Joking :D


Frankly, though, it is a representation of how "progress" can be the death of us. We kill ourselves.

More seriously, if you take the Bible seriously (some of you will, some of you won't), it says even Jesus doesn't know when the second coming is happening, and that God won't cause a mass extinction of human beings again.

Personally I don't see any doom in 2012, apart from all other sports teams being doomed by Britain, being top of the Medals table at the Olympics

Oh yeah, HAHA. :dozey:

Taken with a grain of salt. Who ever said Jesus would come back physically or even at all literally? ... Maybe the second coming was supposed to be a sort of populace returning to their core values? (shrugs)


12/21/2012 is actually my mom's birthday. :indif:

I am not fearful of it at all. I simply don't think that the world is gonna end that day.

Me neither. Relax everyone. At this rate the zombie apocalypse is more likely. We all have our plans for that. No big deal, I mean, play lucasarts' Zombies Ate My Neighbors if you don't have any clues...right?

TKA-001
12-27-2008, 06:19 PM
"I really wish people could be held responsible for doomsday prophecies. As in, you make one, [and] it doesn't come to pass, we fire your rear end into space." -JoachimLPQ of the SomethingAwful Forums

LordRevan999
12-27-2008, 10:52 PM
Hmm,want a Muslim's suggestion?If so read below.(Any muslim reading should correct me if I said something wrong below)

1.I don't know if 2012 would be year doomsday might come.Reasons there are a lot of horrible things to happen which were told to Muslims by our Prophet Muhammad(SAW).There are a lot of things like the coming of devil type person (dajal),coming of Imam Mehdi and will be one of the 300 Muslims left,coming of Christ and a lot of other things(I don't remember much about what I read a long time ago,so I said anything wrong a fellow Muslim should correct it please).

2.A documentary was made about how close are we from doomsday(2000 or 2003 I don't remember).A lot of religious scholars gave their views.And a very well known critic gave a very horrifying view of how the things that were to told to be the indication of doomsday are nearly going to finish in 4 or 5 Cd's.That was very horrifying as they showed everything that happened in past and will happen.Anyways at the time of making it was told that 70%-75% indications have come true.And its going to be year 2009 so I guess we are near 80-% or for worse 85% but still I think they should make a new documentary on this so people can know.

3-Now a another point of view(correct me if I am wrong),I once saw a documentary on doomsdays on national geographic and there was some scientist well know one I don't remember his name maybe it was Issac newton or someone they said he worked his whole his life trying to calculate when doomsday will come.And said 2066 was the year.Man I am worried about this one and I think it might happen before it.But who knows the will of Allah.

Now I just remember few of the indications.Note:there are a lot of them but I can't remember them and the ones I am mentioning are not in true form cause I don't remember them or have their translation in English.
-Tall buildings will be made (TRUE)
-People will travel on something similar to horse but will be very fast(cars).(TRUE)
-A time will come when a single man will have to feed 50 or 60 female.(I don't know about this one)
-People of same sex will marry(gays etc).(True)
-A time will come when the killer will not know why he murdered someone and that person won't know why he was killed.(True to some extent I think,like bomb blasts)
-A time will come when women will wear men clothes and men will wear women.(true)
-The coming of devil who will say he is god(dajal).(False)
-A time will come when everyone will be so busy that they couldn't come on their relatives or loved-ones funeral.(False)

I will write more if I find some information about this somewhere.
See this site http://www.inter-islam.org/faith/Majorsigns.html#khalifh
it tells the major signs of what is remaining to happen.Including coming of Christ,killing of Dajal etc.

Edit:Found some few more signs.
The day of judgement will come after
-when man will be become a follower of his wife's every command(true I think)
-when man will not behave with his mother(to some extent true)
-when man will behave vey harshly with his father(to some extent true)
-when the worst of among you will become your rulers(I don't know about anyone else but I say its the truth)
-when someone will be respected only in fear of his power(true)

Rabish Bini
12-28-2008, 12:32 AM
Um what?

So you're saying stuff Muslim "scientists"(or whatever you call 'em) say, and then put true or false after it? I am very confused to what you're trying to say.

And what are these "4 or 5 cd's" you speak of?

vanir
12-28-2008, 01:12 AM
Okay this is just a very good example of how the wont to be incited by otherwise generalisation and sensationalism is simply far more popular among some individuals than relaxing their mind, doing some proper research and following some simple human intellectual protocols.

Testable results from observation in nature or reproducible experimentation, subject to peer review, people. Good scientific process whenever making scientific or pseudoscientific claims.
;)

Adavardes
12-28-2008, 02:15 AM
Wherever most of the people that have an ardent belief in these phenomena are going to gather when that faithful day comes, assuming they do so, I'd like to be there. Not to prepare with them for the coming judgement, or end of all that we hold dear, but to stand there, when the midnight toll is struck and the day begins, and, as nothing interesting at all happens, say:

"HHHHHHHHA!"

But in all seriousness, I think this is similar to the prophecies of Nostradamus, or crop circles dictating a future end of earth. Intelligent people too zealous and thirsty for an answer delve too deep, analyse too much, and begin to see patterns and evidence in things that, when seen objectively, with less fervorent attitudes, are merely coincidental to the overall theory. It's a fallacy of certain varieties of brilliance, and a fallacy I myself have been guilty of on more than one occasion. Focus on minute details for too long, and you lose the contrast between said details and the larger whole of which they are a part, to so complete an extent that the details become the bigger picture, at least from your perspective.

Still, I suppose such wild imaginings, however misleading in their status as fiction or non-fiction, have led to some pretty interesting reading. If we didn't let our creative minds run wild from time to time, then humanity wouldn't be the unique, emotional, intellectually abstract species it is. When December 21, 2012 comes and goes, at least we'll still have good memories, and some amusing byproducts, to show for it.

LordRevan999
12-28-2008, 09:18 AM
Um what?

So you're saying stuff Muslim "scientists"(or whatever you call 'em) say, and then put true or false after it? I am very confused to what you're trying to say.

And what are these "4 or 5 cd's" you speak of?

What I am saying are the signs told by our Prophet that will come before the the day of judgement.(no scientist or anything involved except the point in which I am discussing the documentary I saw on national geographic and those scientists are not Muslims I can assure you that)
And I am putting true and false by researching if it has become the truth or not.Like tall buildings,same sex marriage etc.

And the cd's I am talking about are not available in english from what I have heard.And the cd's contain the documentary made by muslims of how many signs have passed us and how many will pass.

jawathehutt
12-28-2008, 12:27 PM
In the year 1000, there were a bunch of "signs" that Christ was coming back in Jerusalem. Thousands of people sold everything and pilgrimaged to Jerusalem, and along the way a large percentage of them died. Nothing happened when they got there. When the survivors got back to Europe, they had nothing. In 2000, the world was also supposed to end. Yet I sit here typing this.
Doomsday "Signs" are wrong kids. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Rabish Bini
12-28-2008, 09:55 PM
What I am saying are the signs told by our Prophet that will come before the the day of judgement.(no scientist or anything involved except the point in which I am discussing the documentary I saw on national geographic and those scientists are not Muslims I can assure you that)
And I am putting true and false by researching if it has become the truth or not.Like tall buildings,same sex marriage etc.

And the cd's I am talking about are not available in english from what I have heard.And the cd's contain the documentary made by muslims of how many signs have passed us and how many will pass.
Oh, okay, I get you now, I was just a little confused, that's all :)

Spriggs
12-28-2008, 10:26 PM
Youtube has taken both of the videos you linked down, must have been popular. As a christian I do believe the world will end sometime, no idea when though. As far as the prophecies, if that's the right word, regarding 2012 a wait and see approach would be prudent especially since were so close, exciting stuff.

illuzion69
12-30-2008, 02:54 PM
There have been many claims of "the world ending" in one form or another for thousands of years with a vast majority being wrong. What I think people that worry about it should ask what they can do if it does happen. So barring a pole shift, asteroid, roaches rising up and pimp slapping the human race, etc I think we will be safe.
@ jawathehutt I like your idea about betting with friends and I am not that far from Las Vegas...:)

Rabish Bini
12-31-2008, 10:56 PM
There have been many claims of "the world ending" in one form or another for thousands of years with a vast majority being wrong.
A vast majority? Everyone was wrong, not a vast majority, otherwise some would've been right and we wouldn't be here right now ;)

Darth Avlectus
01-01-2009, 01:02 AM
Wherever most of the people that have an ardent belief in these phenomena are going to gather when that faithful day comes, assuming they do so, I'd like to be there. Not to prepare with them for the coming judgement, or end of all that we hold dear, but to stand there, when the midnight toll is struck and the day begins, and, as nothing interesting at all happens, say:

"HHHHHHHHA!"


I like that!



But in all seriousness, I think this is similar to the prophecies of Nostradamus, or crop circles dictating a future end of earth. Intelligent people too zealous and thirsty for an answer delve too deep, analyse too much, and begin to see patterns and evidence in things that, when seen objectively, with less fervorent attitudes, are merely coincidental to the overall theory.
Granted. No doubt, such fervor in pursuit may lead us to some other ironically unintended developments, no? I mean even if theories are wrong, we get tools like equations and formulas out of the mix which can be used for a variety of things. Beneficially. These are only rumors, but, apparently the crop circles had been utilized in some literal form or another to make mechanisms. I have no hard data nor do a care to chase it down because I have my ideas as to the reality of a good number of those crop circles.

...I'm not altogether sure that advancement in technology is in harmony with advancement of science...or for furthering the human race.

I think in some ways it is actually driving us in reverse. Some minor examples could be provided, should anyone care... but I'm sure everyone (here and elsewhere) has wondered about this at some point or another... and probably has examples of their own.

I would imagine this digressive trend has not gone unnoticed and that professors in every subject at colleges have said their pieces on this (recalling an english assignment of some time ago that I'm not in the mood to look for).

Like those evolution parody novelties illustrate "something has gone terribly wrong somewhere". Exactly where is the question... it seems to me that technology has not reached a level of self awareness yet as has been illustrated by numerous story franchises: Isaac Asimov's I robot, Terminator, and Mega Man X (if you read into the implicit presentation of the simple story line about Reploids and their ability to think, feel, and make their own decisions.) Technology is not (yet) to blame in majority. Bringing me back to a point that we need to advance on a more spiritual level and learn better integrity in our lives (just my opinion) before we can advance.
Maybe the supposed doomsday is a major setback before advancement is possible...hence learning from mistakes and that in no way is it "the end" for the human race.


It's a fallacy of certain varieties of brilliance, and a fallacy I myself have been guilty of on more than one occasion. Focus on minute details for too long, and you lose the contrast between said details and the larger whole of which they are a part, to so complete an extent that the details become the bigger picture, at least from your perspective. Hence there are studies on both micro and macro levels...all worth looking into. Stumbles and tripping are inevitable in all walks.

Still, I suppose such wild imaginings, however misleading in their status as fiction or non-fiction, have led to some pretty interesting reading. If we didn't let our creative minds run wild from time to time, then humanity wouldn't be the unique, emotional, intellectually abstract species it is. When December 21, 2012 comes and goes, at least we'll still have good memories, and some amusing byproducts, to show for it.

Of course. Maybe you'd like to bend my ear in private on this matter?

A vast majority? Everyone was wrong, not a vast majority, otherwise some would've been right and we wouldn't be here right now ;) Consider it depends too upon the prophecies themselves. "Time as we know it will change?" I saw something on discovery or history this morning of how only atomic clocks are really the accurate clocks and that the changes in earth's rotations will cause clocks to not only become inaccurate, but also varying the progression of time itself. (shrugs) Maybe it's another prophecy based on earth's activity, meteorological sciences of ancient times, and stuff like that. If SW has taught me anything it's that great disaster can occur and the impartation of knowledge is best done in cryptic predictions by necessity...maybe...

None of us can deny that all which is going on in the world today has some reasoning behind it. Self fulfilling prophecy or not. Coincidental or not.

One thing's for sure, it has provided me with some interesting reading and other medium to consume and process. Sounds like I'm not the only one.

vanir
01-01-2009, 09:07 AM
I understand where you're coming from GTA, I do. I'm not trying to pick apart your post or anything, I just want to break down what seems to be a very concentrated progression of thoughts to something a bit more communicable for both of us.
(sometimes we surprise ourselves with our own intuition, but other times our own hastiness to form conclusions)

If you would:
Granted. No doubt, such fervor in pursuit may lead us to some other ironically unintended developments, no? I mean even if theories are wrong, we get tools like equations and formulas out of the mix which can be used for a variety of things. Beneficially. These are only rumors, but, apparently the crop circles had been utilized in some literal form or another to make mechanisms.
This may be a confusing statement, as it appears to liken pseudosciences like naturopathy with hard sciences like medicine. Good scientific process begins with a falsifiable hypothesis, offers testable results from reproducible experimentation and observation in nature and is subject to peer review.

Good scientific process is not simply asserting a conclusion such as prophecy or alien influence, whilst some religious communities may be accepting of this practise the scientific community is not and would consider such contentions nothing more than falsifiable hypothesis without any further research undertaken by its proponents (therefore failing at the beginning of peer review: where is the independent and collaborative data suggesting these conclusions?).

A recent and hitherto classical example of psuedoscientific contention is Eugenics, which whilst attempting to base questionable conclusions upon workable hypothesis using select data, in fact sought only to concrete racist political legislation. It sounded very professional, but only in the way Stalin seemed like a nice guy at a tea party. A wolf in sheeps clothing.

...I'm not altogether sure that advancement in technology is in harmony with advancement of science...or for furthering the human race.

I think in some ways it is actually driving us in reverse. Some minor examples could be provided, should anyone care... but I'm sure everyone (here and elsewhere) has wondered about this at some point or another... and probably has examples of their own.

I would imagine this digressive trend has not gone unnoticed and that professors in every subject at colleges have said their pieces on this (recalling an english assignment of some time ago that I'm not in the mood to look for).
Again I believe the classical example of modern concern was the almost universal acceptance of Eugenics during the late 19th century, for political reasons regarding indigenous rights claims. Here science was being used as a "get out of jail free card" to absolve the financial responsibility of succeeding generations towards indigenous claims. Yet this popular acceptance unwittingly procreated "runaway nationalism" so that within a few decades, benefit of quickly developing international domestic communication mediums, it formed the very backbone of Nazism in Europe.

Indeed pseudosciences, that is a mimicry of scientific formulation for political or personal reasons are a popular trend. There has been a movement among American university students recognised during the late-90's and believed to be a direct result of "affirmative action" policies, known as neo-Eugenics. This asserts that instead of cranial capacity and brain structure to differentiate the human races, that environments of social and economic background may be used as predictors of individual behaviour through genetic adaptation (ie. animal husbandry).

This latest attempt at veiling a completely pseudoscientific superstition with the label of scientific contention is of course likened to the "scientific racism" declared by the Anthropological Society, of Eugenics.

It is these types of concerns which are foremost in the mind of university lecturers. That students might attempt to apply a semblence of scientific syntax to personal conclusions in order to manipulate others. And that political agents would attempt to hijack scientific research and procreate pseudoscientific claims whenever money and power are involved.

Take the ICBM for example. Werner von Braun originally conceived such designs to get man into space. Governments hijacked these intentions, and put man into space only to develop ICBM technologies. This reinforces what you say.


I believe we are in agreement, but I wished to extrapolate to make a clear distinction between pseudoscientific claims and true science.

Darth Avlectus
01-03-2009, 04:52 AM
You are too generous! :) I get praise for my "intelligence" and stuff, but to be honest I'm not surprised if my imbalance of attributes here cancels out any usability whatsoever. Thanks though. ;)
This may be a confusing statement, as it appears to liken pseudosciences like naturopathy with hard sciences like medicine.

Perhaps I was overgeneralizing to compensate for my lack of concise presentation in other threads. (Well, that and I just get nauseated of debating something with people who basically are telling me "how it is" and refuse to see it any other way than theirs regarding just about any matter.)

I think I should have separated that last thing about crop cirlces rumors. MY BAD!

I was more speaking to the development of mathematics and, like you say hard sciences. Or social sciences that at least hold some validity to a lesser degree. I suspect that this raw state of science is much more susceptible to political machinations. Sadly, hard sciences are soon making their way into that arena as you addressed below. Good scientific process begins with a falsifiable hypothesis, offers testable results from reproducible experimentation and observation in nature and is subject to peer review. Yes. What was it called that separated lab science from social science? Ceterus Paribus? (latin for: all other variables assumed equal) That is one very important distinction to be made. Good scientific process is not simply asserting a conclusion such as prophecy or alien influence, whilst some religious communities may be accepting of this practise the scientific community is not and would consider such contentions nothing more than falsifiable hypothesis without any further research undertaken by its proponents (therefore failing at the beginning of peer review: where is the independent and collaborative data suggesting these conclusions?). EXCELLENT POINT! I'm often disappointed by a lack of factual data or evidence when seeing some kind of study I'd like to look into from time to time.
OR how some con artists (conspiracy theorists) use factual data in a fallacious manner to gain $$$. OR that that same sort of thing is done by kooks pushing political agendas and/or extremism in religion.

I'm a little rough around the edges to be an academic type. Still R&D is quite rewarding to those who pursue it. I find the amount of...crud... hindering their progress to be disconcerting. After these people do so much work only to have it lambasted or hyperbolized or what have you. I quite appreciate these people.

So far as prophecies, though, I'm not quite sure how it is done except by mathematic formulae or statistics trends research. Nikola Tesla made predictions back in the late 1800s that have come true. The coming of age for aluminum, handheld communications devices, robotics advancement. THIS was a guy who actually bothered to go the distance, become an electrical physicist, and crank numbers and figures as well as invent.

Eugenics is probably the best example of pseudoscience. In fact, eugenics has got to be one of the most disgusting practices with regard to human life I have ever seen!

As an independent with many conservative values, I find Stalin reprehensible, actually. I'd call myself a "Soverigntist". I don't care to debate the politics of it, or talk about it here but if you'd like to speak in private?

Yes, I am all too suspicious of ulterior motives. Since scientists and engineers are concerned with HOW more than that of WHY (plus the creativity is mostly beaten out of you in those directions), I can see ways researchers are duped.

Again I believe the classical example of modern concern was the almost universal acceptance of Eugenics during the late 19th century, for political reasons regarding indigenous rights claims. Here science was being used as a "get out of jail free card" to absolve the financial responsibility of succeeding generations towards indigenous claims. Yet this popular acceptance unwittingly procreated "runaway nationalism" so that within a few decades, benefit of quickly developing international domestic communication mediums, it formed the very backbone of Nazism in Europe. Indeed pseudosciences, that is a mimicry of scientific formulation for political or personal reasons are a popular trend. There has been a movement among American university students recognised during the late-90's and believed to be a direct result of "affirmative action" policies,
Ah, yes. This. (Side note: I am glad to have an independent view from someone not in America!)

These policies (as best I can determine) have considerations into a number of factors to a student's background. Factors which, I'm not all that convinced, is concerned with *actual performance*. Hence my bewilderment that it claims meritocracy has been trampled as its main reason of concern--and yet I see little else to that end actually being done.

known as neo-Eugenics. This asserts that instead of cranial capacity and brain structure to differentiate the human races, that environments of social and economic background may be used as predictors of individual behaviour through genetic adaptation (ie. animal husbandry).

Yes. Indeed! I am actually curious as to what you have uncovered. If you don't mind.

This latest attempt at veiling a completely pseudoscientific superstition with the label of scientific contention is of course likened to the "scientific racism" declared by the Anthropological Society, of Eugenics.

It is these types of concerns which are foremost in the mind of university lecturers. That students might attempt to apply a semblence of scientific syntax to personal conclusions in order to manipulate others. And that political agents would attempt to hijack scientific research and procreate pseudoscientific claims whenever money and power are involved.

Which scares me, more and more all the time. Sad too.

Too bad I myself don't have any hard data to do justice for someone I know personally (not greatly, but well enough) who grew up in Italy and left it because of Mussolini. He grew up in an environment such that he is wise enough to see the start of fascism.

Take the ICBM for example. Werner von Braun originally conceived such designs to get man into space. Governments hijacked these intentions, and put man into space only to develop ICBM technologies. This reinforces what you say.

I believe we are in agreement, but I wished to extrapolate to make a clear distinction between pseudoscientific claims and true science.

WOW! Wonderful extrapolation! THANK YOU VERY MUCH! Are you a professor or at least a university student by chance? Very enlightening actually. It sounds like it may confirm some of my suspicions about the institutions of higher education in America.

What I was getting at is the overall progression has varied results.
While it is natural for minds to entertain on fictions generated from actual work, I marvel at how ideas have such exponential influence in the first place. As you said, though, it is also plagued with everything from petty to extremes. You said that plenty better than I ever could!

vanir
01-05-2009, 05:01 AM
(Well, that and I just get nauseated of debating something with people who basically are telling me "how it is" and refuse to see it any other way than theirs regarding just about any matter.)
Oh tell me about it mate ;) Some days I'm already hanging on by such a fine thread and I've found time and again the hard way, not to go where they want to lead me. I wind up paying for it for the next 24hrs trying to find my sense of peace again, all for a mere moment's wonton gratification for some totally undeveloped, and very frustrated child.

But they do pop up anywhere. At least one certain unmentionable at these forums, another two or three at history forums, even one of the lecturers at a university. Certain past and current employers and managers. One must learn how to politely ignore them. They will where given the chance, happily subvert your career just for kicks.

Back on topic, nothing particular to add really, I'll just chat a little.
Social sciences I think may be primarily governed by the anthropologists ethic "correlation does not infer causation" though to be sure it sounds much nicer in the traditional latin condiment, "all things being equal." Many social sciences and especially political agendas derived of them are very open to interpretation for these reasons. Personally I'd consider most socio-scientific assertions well educated opinions rather than hard facts.

Insofar as the neo-Eugenics movement I actually came across this by accident. Happening upon one of the aforementioned arrogant opinionators at a forum, I was researching some ridiculous contentions to answer them with self evident scientific observation rather than pointless interpersonal arguing, using an anthropologists database and found a conversation as part of a peer review of neo-Eugenics contentions between biologists, archaeologists and anthropologists, in which they falsified animal husbandry as relative to individual behaviour and found the original falsification of Eugenics to boot. It was interesting reading, but quite some time ago and I'm not sure I could find the web-database very easily now. I'd suggest beginning a search at the American Anthropological Society website and linked university databases. Also google "eugenics" and "neo-eugenics" or enter these in the search function of websites by universities which specialise in anthropology (for example, the university of Wyoming specialises in palaeontology).

Where prophecy is discussed I think it interesting to note it as a product at best of intuitive imagination, strictly speaking, and equally interesting to investigate the circumstance of predictions. Aldous Huxley for example was habitually stoned on hard drugs and wrote a sci-fi novel...which in 1923 not only predicted escalators, suspended electric monorails and the IVF program but described them in such tremendous detail upon reading this tome I felt as if a product of the 19th century had somehow travelled in time to comment upon the technologies of today. Sigmund Freud was addicted to the same drugs and thought up what was soon hailed as "the religion of the 20th century," probably more in an effort to subjectively understand himself than anything else. And in 1948 George Orwell thought communism would take over the world, he didn't think about the economics of totalitarianism and yet his book "1984" is often regarded as also somewhat prophetic (perhaps in terms of what could have happened, or the folly of political totalitarianism as a natural course of developing government, in general).
Many astonishing predictions have occured, many extremely wise observations. I think the line to prophecy is crossed when someone makes these a solid claim, but I'm not against it as a form of personal belief.

This may or may not be off topic. You know in Israel, if someone claims to be the Messiah from what I've heard (yes this is anecdotal and not to be taken as a stated fact), it is legislated they must be taken seriously. The individual is rigorously interviewed and investigated just in case he/she is. Of course the risk for those running around claiming to be the Messiah is that where proven not to be by satisfactory argument, they generally wind up committed to a sealed institution. Nevertheless many people continue to claim they are the Messiah each year, and each is taken seriously.
Heard about that on a radio science show I used to listen to back in about 1998, iirc some guest speakers were discussing it, but it is a pretty informal radio show and I've not done any research into it. This has just stuck in mind as one of those interesting things you hear, which I remember when thinking about prophets and such.

Arcesious
01-05-2009, 05:09 PM
I really don't know what to think after skimming through this website I found with google:

http://www.etheric.com/LaViolette/Predict.html

That's a new one to me, doom by gamma ray bursts...

Darth333
01-06-2009, 10:00 PM
Superstitions...If I had believed in all of them since I was born, I'd be dead at least 10 times already. Despite technology advances it seems that some things have not progressed since the middle ages (or even the dawn of humanity...).

Achilles
01-06-2009, 10:07 PM
I really don't know what to think after skimming through this website I found with google:

http://www.etheric.com/LaViolette/Predict.html

That's a new one to me, doom by gamma ray bursts...hehe, try this (http://www.amazon.com/Death-Skies-These-Ways-World/dp/0670019976) out. Phil Plait is win.

Despite technology advances it seems that some things have not progressed since the middle ages (or even the dawn of humanity...).QFT

The_Catto
01-07-2009, 12:38 AM
Meh, if 21st Dec 2012 is Doomsday, I'm hitting it up with mates, grabbing a few cartons and going out in style. No better way I should think :D

Darth Avlectus
01-12-2009, 05:30 AM
Ah. I've been out a few days. Well, yes quite the education I'm getting from you, vanir. I like science. I guess what I was originally getting at with technology not necessarily being in line with science and the development (FOR BETTER) of the human race...It could be tied in with conveniences. Examples, spellcheck and calculators. Talk to a university professor...no, actually talk to many of them. I just wonder how much the conveniences are squandering the usefulness and overall effectiveness of the human race. Sort of why I like being a bit of a brute. So I can laugh when a plastic surgeon can't replace his own tire.

Still, in all seriousness... though I hardly think I'm cut out for research, there is something really satisfying about making some kind of definitive thesis, finding facts to prove it, refining it to eliminate junk and fallacies, alter it if it's not working out...etc. Why do I bring this up? Because a particular doctor I know (anthro guy, loves my SW geekdom for his special SW anthro classes... and an occasional lightsaber duel I coreograph) has seen how quality of research is degrading over time and at how informations obtained are really not so much informations as it is something advertising to be informations.

I'm stuck because I feel like I want to do something about it and maybe I could, but I don't even know where to start. I'm no shining beacon...YET if I have learned any one thing...you can't really fight trends.

I'm hearing all the time "progressive" this and that. I ask, what good is progress if you evolve away from your principles? From what made you what/who you are in the first place??? What ever happened to more conservationist philosophies? Well, I'll stop raving like a lunatic. My point in all this is that we may very well be our own undoing. I guess that's what always happens. And it starts all over again. UGH!

An example: After the Meji restoration, Samurai had to adapt their teachings to be more spiritual as opposed to combative. Those who held onto the pure old ways ended up crumbling into dust and blowing away as it were. The ones that survived the test of time? Maybe not quite the chivalrous samurai of old quite, but, I'm confident if things were to return to that out of necessity--little would be lost. Still, I wonder just how much has changed forever. That's still more futunate than the losses I see elsewhere.
People without their way--or even a way at all, for that matter.

Superstitions...If I had believed in all of them since I was born, I'd be dead at least 10 times already. Despite technology advances it seems that some things have not progressed since the middle ages (or even the dawn of humanity...).
What, you mean like laziness? Here here. If it wasn't for laziness, I'd be out of a job. Lazy people need me. Keep yer pal GTA fed, BE LAZY! I need the $$$ to pay my bills and the work keeps me active!

I broke a mirror on friday the 13th once after going under a ladder. On purpose. Wonder what that would have in store.
Meh, if 21st Dec 2012 is Doomsday, I'm hitting it up with mates, grabbing a few cartons and going out in style. No better way I should think :D
Well, I'm not sure what I'd do...It's a tossup. Backyard wrestling (yes, the kind that requires stitches for all the glass and chairs), Hang gliding (gotta fly), or a hot time with my gal pal (live and love). That's a tough choice.

justanother_strwsfan
03-12-2009, 01:47 PM
Meh, if 21st Dec 2012 is Doomsday, I'm hitting it up with mates, grabbing a few cartons and going out in style. No better way I should think :D

*raises drink* here here!

Yar-El
03-12-2009, 02:37 PM
Superstitions...If I had believed in all of them since I was born, I'd be dead at least 10 times already. Despite technology advances it seems that some things have not progressed since the middle ages (or even the dawn of humanity...).
Can I get some clarification? Please. :)

EnderWiggin
03-12-2009, 03:24 PM
Can I get some clarification? Please. :)

There have been multiple supposed Doomsdays since I have been born; D3 is saying that these things are only superstition.

_EW_

CommanderQ
03-12-2009, 03:43 PM
There have been multiple supposed Doomsdays since I have been born; D3 is saying that these things are only superstition.

_EW_


I agree on that, nearly all of these 'doom's days' have been based on hype on a certain day or number, in the end, it's all superstition. I think many of us have that same idea when it comes to such subjects as doom and gloom:D

Tommycat
03-13-2009, 07:36 AM
hehe I wish I could link to a song by a band called Last Supper(no they weren't religious).

It was called Y2K
"By the time you hear this song
the crisis will be done
But fear not before to long
there'll be another one"

Canderis
03-15-2009, 07:10 PM
The Mayan calender stops and starts over after XXX amount of years. So no apocalypse for us :D Someone is making a movie about this too.

Drunkside
03-16-2009, 07:07 AM
I'm frankly more concerned about June 6th, 2066, at 6:56 AM.

Why is that? seems like the greatest day in the history if you mean all the 6s you can find there:p

But seriously, its a load of crap. The world isnt gonna end just like that, the sun wont say boom for 5000000000 more years and there hasnt been a meteorite seen heading towards us, well at least not yet. And Jesus is a loser at respawning, we have been waiting for him to come back for 2000 years, while dalai lama hasnt been doing anything but coming back:xp:

Admiral_Thrawn
03-16-2009, 12:17 PM
I don't believe in prophecies, but don't forget that Aztec Calendar thing. When some god (Actually it was a Spaniard named Cortez, but that ain't as flashy) came across the ocean in floating mountain's (Never been on a cruise eh?), with four legged centaur's (Horsies, neiigh!) and normal people with wand's that shoot fire. (Gun's but who care's!)

Jae Onasi
03-16-2009, 06:11 PM
I'm sure if the Mayans were around, they'd have a new calendar to start the day the old one ran out as part of the contingency plan. If it really is doomsday, none of us will be here to care after that, so I'm not going to sweat it.

There's no guarantee any of us will be here in the next hour, much less the next decade, so we should learn to appreciate the days we have now and work on making the world better one day at time. If the world ends in 3 years, at least we'll have made it better than the world it is today.

Canderis
03-16-2009, 09:31 PM
If the world ends in 3 years, at least we'll have made it better than the world it is today.

Or if your too young to make a big difference, at least we had fun :D

JediMaster12
03-17-2009, 01:33 PM
Well the Mayans may have gotten the date but Aztecan belief states that we are in the Fifth Age or the Age of the Ollintonatiuh, the sun. They came up with the description of what happens during the lasts days and surprisingly or maybe coincidence the descriptions are similar to certain events that are predicted in the Bible. Aztecan belief goes along the line that there would be a giant earthquake that would swallow the earth and disease a pestilence and there is silence.

Coincidence maybe to certain things in Revelation but what is consistent is that peopl never stop coming up with ways of predicting how the world will end. Mayans I could probably accept more readily than the alien spaceship theory in that they wer master mathematicians and could predict the occurences of Venus' appearance, etc. with astounding accuracy that makes our "superior" Julian calendar look pathetic.

Xarwarz
03-18-2009, 03:30 AM
no man knows the day or hour

Zerimar Nyliram
03-18-2009, 02:09 PM
I haven't read this thread at all, but I watched a special on this on The History Channel a while back and all I have to say is this: take everything you hear on TV with a grain of salt. Always assume they are lying to you, which they usually are.

As much as I love The History Channel, I really can't take all of their programs at face value. They are meant to entertain first and educate second. That's how they keep you coming back for more.

Darth Avlectus
03-19-2009, 04:34 AM
I haven't read this thread at all, but I watched a special on this on The History Channel a while back and all I have to say is this: take everything you hear on TV with a grain of salt. Always assume they are lying to you, which they usually are.

ZOMG! CONSPIRACY!
.
..
...
JK :lol:

As much as I love The History Channel, I really can't take all of their programs at face value. They are meant to entertain first and educate second. That's how they keep you coming back for more.

Wise words.

So many of us romance doomsday...it's a better device for profiting off of entertainment I think.

If the world is turned into a stone with a giant sheet of glass over its surface...hey, we're all dead so no big deal. :roleyess: