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Ctrl Alt Del
05-24-2008, 12:30 PM
There are things we all take for granted. I've always took Force choke (or Force Kill, for the close) as one of those things.

"What, Vader's trademark? For sure it's Darkside!"

So naive. Recently re-watching RotJ, I noticed something that I've never bothered with before. Luke actually chokes the Gamorreans guarding Jabba's palace at the entrance, killing or stunning them.

How many games do classify Kill as a DS powers? And still Luke uses it. Last I checked, only Yoda taught him, I wouldn't think he would teach a dark power to him.

adamqd
05-24-2008, 01:20 PM
At the time (In real life, not Star Wars Continuity) there weren't things like Darkside/lightside powers yet, more like just telekinesis, apart from Palpatine's Lightning, but that was just his thing... until AOTC :roleyess:, I think Games the EU and later the Prequels established the rights and wrongs of Force use (I don't think Luke Killed the Gam's though) :)

Rev7
05-24-2008, 03:50 PM
I am pretty sure that Luke didn't kill that Gammorean, but he still used some type of force power that stunned the Gammorean.

Fredi
05-24-2008, 04:22 PM
The force has no allingment ... so you could use what is known as Dark side powers ... aslong as you can control you're emotions ...

Rev7
05-24-2008, 10:06 PM
^
To me it looked like Luke was controlling his emotions when he used the force choke.

HIGH ON PIE 14
05-24-2008, 10:56 PM
The force has no allingment ... so you could use what is known as Dark side powers ... aslong as you can control you're emotions ...

Thats what I've always thought... there are'nt any true dark or lightside powers, just ones that draw more naturally on one side's practices. Anyway I'm also pretty sure Luke didn't kill the Gammorean although it did look like he was choking it. But in martial arts moves today isnt it possible to stun someone by cutting off most, but not all air? IDK maybe I've just been watching too much TV.

Gurges-Ahter
05-25-2008, 12:04 AM
Additionally, Luke skirted the edge of darkside/lightside in battling his emotions... I kind of visioned him like Mace Windu in that he was definitely lightside, but was close enough to gray to be able to effectively utilize what are commonly known as darkside powers. I also believe that's why Mace was so effective with Vaapad.

Ctrl Alt Del
05-25-2008, 04:38 PM
At the time (In real life, not Star Wars Continuity) there weren't things like Darkside/lightside powers yet, more like just telekinesis, apart from Palpatine's Lightning, but that was just his thing...
I find myself agreeing with this. It was probably retconed.
The force has no allingment ... so you could use what is known as Dark side powers ... aslong as you can control you're emotions ...
Well, the Force surely don't, after all, Dark and Light are living beings conceptions. But the way you use is as a mean to accomplish a goal, but still inflict pain (I think that being choked or electrocuted is painful), would classify some powers as dark or light. Such as it's seem on many games.

Ali1392
05-25-2008, 04:52 PM
look up potentium or something spelt like that on wookiepedia that explains it

GeneralPloKoon
05-25-2008, 05:29 PM
The New Jedi Order was much different than the Old Jedi Order(before Order 66), the Jedi where more aggresive and there was less rules, marriage was even allowed!(Luke and Mara Jade) Plus those Gamorreans were probably scum anyways.... eventually though, the new jedi get it together.

adamqd
05-25-2008, 05:34 PM
The Potentium were a group of Jedi who believed the Force was inherently good... Regardless of your actions, the Force would make things right, Yoda and the rest of the Council did not believe this. Though they neither prove this wrong nor show there beliefs to be right, as 110 years later they watch there order go down in Flames lol.
Regarding my previous post: That is the real world explanation for Luke's actions on Tatooine, my view is similar to Ctrl_Alt's, the Force is the Force, how you choose to use it reflects your alignment in the eyes of the person Judging your actions.

PoiuyWired
05-28-2008, 05:51 PM
Well, there are generally 3 more common ways to associate a power manifestation to DS/LS, depending on who you ask:

1) Some powers are DS/LS while some are neutral. Though there are oftentimes LS version of DS power and vice versa.

2) Intention of Your actions dictates DS/LS/neutral/etc.

3) LS(Jedi) calls upon the force going with its flow, DS(Sith) bends the force to the wielder's will.

I personally tend to believe in (2), and considers (3) as difference between Jedi and Sith and not LS/DS. (1) would be too over-simplified and would only be good for kiddies and the like.

Sam!
05-31-2008, 12:43 AM
Choking a Gammorean and knocking him out for a few minutes, I can't say I classify that as an evil deed.

M@RS
05-31-2008, 01:05 AM
I think that, if you use the force to hurt a neutral character or a friend it's using the DS of the force anything else is okay

Gurges-Ahter
06-01-2008, 12:40 AM
I think using the force is just like everything else in real life - it all depends on your intent. For example, choking is generally considered a dark side force power because it's used to hurt/threaten/kill, but of course it can be used in circumstances where the intent is not evil. It's a bit unnatural for a LS Jedi to use it because, in general, it's more DS-natured. In real life, this could be compared to shooting someone with a gun. In general, it's a bad/evil thing to do, but in some circumstances the intent is not evil (such as self-protection, or saving someone else's life). It's a hard thing for a good person to shoot and kill someone else, but doing so in some circumstances would not make them evil.

Ctrl Alt Del
06-01-2008, 02:32 PM
Choking a Gammorean and knocking him out for a few minutes, I can't say I classify that as an evil deed.

It is... on the moment you determines every gamorrean is not worth the effort.

Gurges-Ahter
06-01-2008, 06:33 PM
It is... on the moment you determines every gamorrean is not worth the effort.Was it that Luke determined the gamorrean wasn't worth the effort, or was it a pre-emptive measure taken to prevent more of Jabba's crew from deterring his entrance? Perhaps if he hadn't taken such measures, he would not have had any success getting in. I don't know either way, but I think it's unfair to assume that he did so only because it "wasn't worth the effort".

TKA-001
06-01-2008, 07:52 PM
I'm not sure how people can debate whether crushing someone's internal organs is evil or not. I may have missed something somewhere, but I don't recall ever hearing that it's healthy for one's insides to get mashed up.

Bottom line: Choking someone with the force is of the dark side, as is electrocuting them, draining their life energy, and so on. Trying to use choke simply to knock someone out and saying it's "for the greater good" is simply a fool's justification for toying with the dark side's corrupting power. Unfortunately, a lot of the EU ignores this fact.

M@RS
06-01-2008, 11:16 PM
true...but it gives me something to do, I don't know about the rest of you, anyhow I respectively disagree with you, it depends on the intent like Gurges-Ahter

TKA-001
06-02-2008, 08:14 AM
If the dark side powers were not corrupting and could just as easily be used for good, then Exar Kun would never have become a Sith.

Gurges-Ahter
06-05-2008, 10:10 PM
Are Exar Kun's actions necessarily indicative of what everyone else would do?

M@RS
06-05-2008, 10:20 PM
Yeah look at Kyle Katarn he choked plenty of people and used force lightning and everything you would consider the darkside, but he stayed to the lightside (mostly)...

General LiWar
06-05-2008, 11:11 PM
1)If you look at the games, you can use force choke as a light side jedi and LS powers as DS jedi.
2)During this period, Luke had very little formal training, he studied with yoda for a few days then left to help his friends. The rest of it, he more or less learned by experience...
3)Luke uses a lot of different force powers during that encounter, it may have been just a little arrogance on his part. Did he really have to jump off the plank just to hop back up with the force? NO, he could've turned around and have r2 send him his saber. Luke was "not a jedi yet"

Rev7
06-05-2008, 11:33 PM
But the thing is that a lot of these things are in the video games where you can practically choose what power to use. This is in the movies. You really don't see any other Jedi in the movies that actually uses force choke.

I think that Luke more or less 'stunned' the a Gammoeran. Once he got access from Bib to where Jabba was, I think that Luke would have 'let go' of the Gammorean. I see it as more of a stopping a fight before it started. My two cents...

Ctrl Alt Del
06-06-2008, 02:28 PM
Was it that Luke determined the gamorrean wasn't worth the effort, or was it a pre-emptive measure taken to prevent more of Jabba's crew from deterring his entrance? Perhaps if he hadn't taken such measures, he would not have had any success getting in. I don't know either way, but I think it's unfair to assume that he did so only because it "wasn't worth the effort".

There are really a bunch of other more effective, quicker, and less crude Force techniques that can disable them, if that was his intentions.

Gurges-Ahter
06-06-2008, 03:25 PM
There are really a bunch of other more effective, quicker, and less crude Force techniques that can disable them, if that was his intentions.True. I think a less-gray Jedi might have chosen one of the other techniques. It was probably an instinctual move.

Sir Phobos
06-21-2008, 05:40 AM
Luke wasn't on an even keel, sure he force choked a few thugs - the kid was going through a lot at this stage in his life. Oh and I doubt a force choke is all that hard to pull off... I mean come on.

MachineCult
06-22-2008, 01:57 PM
^^^ Anakin learnt it by accident.

PoiuyWired
06-22-2008, 03:26 PM
There are really a bunch of other more effective, quicker, and less crude Force techniques that can disable them, if that was his intentions.

Maybe the use of Force Choks is deliberate. Its a trademark of the dreaded Vaderafterall. Being a Jedi known to use Force Choke sounds much more deadlier than he actually is at the time.

Though Luke have his unique force attack also, the Force Kick.

The Source
06-23-2008, 03:06 PM
There are things we all take for granted. I've always took Force choke (or Force Kill, for the close) as one of those things.

"What, Vader's trademark? For sure it's Darkside!"

So naive. Recently re-watching RotJ, I noticed something that I've never bothered with before. Luke actually chokes the Gamorreans guarding Jabba's palace at the entrance, killing or stunning them.

How many games do classify Kill as a DS powers? And still Luke uses it. Last I checked, only Yoda taught him, I wouldn't think he would teach a dark power to him.
I think classifying force powers to a particular side is faulty. Sure, some of them are straight out evil, but I think they all have been used both sides. Force choke, manipulation, and mind tricks are three examples.

Ctrl Alt Del
06-25-2008, 03:31 PM
I think classifying force powers to a particular side is faulty. Sure, some of them are straight out evil, but I think they all have been used both sides. Force choke, manipulation, and mind tricks are three examples.

And why do you put those three particular powers on that list? I can understand the lightside uses of mind tricks and the manipulation but I don't see it on choke.

Pho3nix
06-25-2008, 03:33 PM
I think the difference is that Luke was able to force choke and not succumb to the dark side, the same way Mace Windu was able to use Vaapad.

PoiuyWired
06-25-2008, 03:39 PM
If the dark side powers were not corrupting and could just as easily be used for good, then Exar Kun would never have become a Sith.

Its the way Exar Kun calls upon the Force, its a Dark Side way of tapping it. The Sith bends the Force to its will rather than flowing with the force.

Well, the disabling of his LS tapping does force him to understand the way of the DS arts though. but ultimately its his choice of using it long after thw whole DS trial ordeal.

TKA-001
06-25-2008, 07:07 PM
The Sith bends the Force to its will rather than flowing with the force.
I think it would help greatlγ if you actually explained what that means.

M@RS
06-25-2008, 07:19 PM
I can, instead of just letting the force control you (like the Jedi do sometimes) the Sith control the force...

K_Kinnison
06-30-2008, 03:11 AM
I had a discussion with Timothy Zahn about how he used the force in his books before the prequal novels, THe movies tend to support it. And if you ignore the dialouge and focus on the action and what you see it still holds true.

and how some authors tend to use "dues es machina" too much

Yoda lifting Luke's X-wing is the limit of the power that can be used in the force.
Most FOrce powers rely on TK, precognition, and minor telepathy that is more like Empathy.

The Darkside/lightside is very similar to eastern philosophies of enlightenment, and Karma. Using the Force in anger to harm someone else is bad. But to use it to protect oneself, or protect others is good. As you start doing more and more bad stuff with the Force, there is less doubt, and less hesitation.

Anakin knew when he killed Dooku that it was bad. But there wasn't much hesitation when he went on a rampage in the Temple.

Luke did use Force Choke on the piggies because there was still a little of the old vader in him. But because he stopped himself from Killing vader, he realized he could stop himself from going to the darkside, and doing evil.

You might say that as a Jedi becomes more and more Elightened, they stop using the force, and eventually surrender themselves to nirvana becoming a being of pure force.

While a Sith uses it for power, to the point that it becomes the only thing they have, not realizing that at the moment of death, they lose everything. A few sith Lords (Exur Kun, Freedon Nadd)

Maphisto86
06-30-2008, 08:59 PM
Aside from mechanics for gaming, some powers and applications of the Force where probably seen as more lightside (benevolent) or dark side (malevolent) then others by the Jedi. For example using the Force to telekenetically lift something was probably seen as a neutral application, healing was seen as beneficial to the light side as it was benevolent in nature whereas conjuring electricity or energy with the Force to strike at a target was seen as a dark side power because of the violence inherent in it.

Using the Force power of telekenesis to choke or crush someone would have probably been seen as a dark side power because it was used to hurt a living being. While Luke Skywalker used it while a Jedi initiate, he may have only stunned the guards. Still it would have probably been frowned upon by the likes of Yoda and Obi-Wan. I find listening to what Yoda says about the nature of the Force in ESB and ROTJ is how to find answers to such questions. For example, Yoda believes the Force should be used for knowledge and defense, never for attack, which would otherwise lead to the temptation of the dark side.

Yoda lifting Luke's X-wing is the limit of the power that can be used in the force.

I would have to disagree with such a hypothesis. I doubt Yoda who said, "Size matters not", would have been unable to lift anything larger than a starfighter, using the Force. He did not seem to have much difficulty raising it from the water and moving it in mid-air to the shore. The only thing standing between the use of the Force and say lifting a building is the mentality of the user and their connection to the Force.

TKA-001
06-30-2008, 09:12 PM
I can, instead of just letting the force control you (like the Jedi do sometimes) the Sith control the force...
What relevance does that hold? The force doesn't "control" anyone anymore than it does anyone else.

K_Kinnison
07-01-2008, 01:59 AM
The only thing standing between the use of the Force and say lifting a building is the mentality of the user and their connection to the Force.

You haven't studied a lot of eastern philosophy. The whole idea of "Do or do not, there is no try" is that if you have any doubts, you will fail. Yoda was trying to make Luke "Empty his cup", or unlearn what he had already learned about the limits of a physical body, and was applying them to his power in the force.

If force users COULD do more then move a starfighter, then you would have seen many more opportunities for that to happen. When Dooku escaped Genosis, Akakin crash landing on Courscant, and Luke fleeing from the Executor. The limit of Power is a starfighter is size. No more. THe physical body cannot handle any more Force energy (as we read with Dorsk in Jedi Academy)

As was said in the above post... it isn't so much the power, but how the power is applied. Tho some force powers.. like Force lighting only exist to hurt, harm and kill.

Tho you have to ask, when yoda reflected back the force lighting at Dooku, was he mis-using the power of the force for the dark side?

Maphisto86
07-02-2008, 01:42 AM
You haven't studied a lot of eastern philosophy. The whole idea of "Do or do not, there is no try" is that if you have any doubts, you will fail. Yoda was trying to make Luke "Empty his cup", or unlearn what he had already learned about the limits of a physical body, and was applying them to his power in the force.

Well I already knew that and I thought that was the point I wanted to make. That the only difference was the mind and that only doubt stands between them and what they wish to lift. I brought the connection to the Force also into equation because in both trilogies, an individual with a greater connection was seen to have more potential then others with the Jedi and the Sith.

If force users COULD do more then move a starfighter, then you would have seen many more opportunities for that to happen. When Dooku escaped Genosis, Anakin crash landing on Courscant, and Luke fleeing from the Executor. The limit of Power is a starfighter is size. No more. THe physical body cannot handle any more Force energy (as we read with Dorsk in Jedi Academy)

I do not see what you are referring to in those four events... could you be more specific. Im guessing what you mean with the third event was when the Invisible Hand, Greivous's flagship, was plummeting to Courscant's surface and Anakin had to glide it in for a landing. I bet it was that mental barrier that held him and even Obi-Wan from doing anything... though Anakin's talents as a pilot are said to be, at least in part, due to the Force.

I am confused with your last claim, however it is probably just me, due to not having read as much of the Star Wars novels (not that I do not wish to, there has just been so many! :wornout: ). Is there a physical limit to tapping into the Force? I am talking other than the amount of midi-chlorian's within a individual (although that may be a factor). Judging from the films, only the mentality of the user as well as their Force potential seems to be the limit to a Jedi or Sith's power.


As was said in the above post... it isn't so much the power, but how the power is applied. Tho some force powers.. like Force lighting only exist to hurt, harm and kill.

That almost sounds like the philosophy of the Potentium (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Potentium) ;) I actually think that the power itself does indeed lead one to the light or dark side. It does not mean that using say, Force choke, will lead one astray to darkness (like Luke for example) but it is more likely. It's like if you kill a person, even in self-defense, it only makes it easier for you psychologically to kill again. That is why the Jedi frowned on the use of such powers... it is the quick and easy path. There are more defense oriented powers to get around any situation....


Tho you have to ask, when yoda reflected back the force lighting at Dooku, was he mis-using the power of the force for the dark side?

I don't believe so... it was a new power we saw when Yoda defended himself from the lightning attacks of Darth Tyranus and Darth Sidious. As it was passive in nature, I would say the power (Force Absorb, I believe) was more toward the Light Side of the Force. As for reflecting it back at Dooku... while that was using Force Lightning, I guess since Yoda himself did not conjure it, that he wasn't "cheating" per say. Also Yoda is no ordinary Jedi... he is an experienced and mature master who is in control of his emotions. We only saw him reflect Force Lighting in a defensive nature during combat.

Anyway, my only contention is with your claim, Kinnison, that nothing larger then an X-Wing star fighter could be lifted while using the Force. Just because it is the largest object I believe we see levitated by a Force user does not mean that larger objects can also be so manipulated. In Episode III we saw the titanic struggle between Jedi Grand Master Yoda and the Dark Lord of the Sith Palpatine, where both threw large repulsorlift pods with little effort (especially in Darth Sidious's case). That's not even mentioning the numerous "Expanded Universe" cases of huge objects being controlled and lifted by the Force. I contend that size indeed matters not. :)

Kurgan
07-02-2008, 07:35 AM
I think it's just a game mechanic coming out of the EU that people have tried to read back into the movies. It just doesn't work (and I should add that wookieepedia isn't canon).


Anyway, those Gammoreans did die, each had a family, and were just a few days away from retirement.

Sorry guys...

Relenzo2
07-02-2008, 11:11 AM
Luke did not learn Force Choke from Yoda, he learnt is just then, sort of like Anikin, because of his talent. However, because of his limited teaching, he did not learn to control such "Dark Side" acts. Yes, he was being arrogent.

And size matters not! Do not underestimate the power of the human mind to limit itself, my friend. In the movies, Yoda versus Dooku, I would say that pylon-thin Yoda saved Luke and Obi-wan from was much larger than a starfighter.

Ctrl Alt Del
07-02-2008, 01:34 PM
And size matters not! Do not underestimate the power of the human mind to limit itself, my friend. In the movies, Yoda versus Dooku, I would say that pylon-thin Yoda saved Luke and Obi-wan from was much larger than a starfighter.

Then let's not underestimate the power of the whatever-species-Yoda's-from mind.

TKA-001
07-02-2008, 01:42 PM
The senate pods were actually smaller than an X-wing[, for the record].

PoiuyWired
07-03-2008, 07:44 PM
Well, we don't know whats the maximum Yoda can do with the force TK. Its like, yoda is not going to lift some random huge objects just because he can.

Also, it seems that the physical body DOE impose some limit to ones force ability, in the event that sometimes even if your mind can manage weaving extreme levels of force power, your body would give in not being able to handle it. Basically your body got too overloaded with force energy and starts burning out.

Its probably way mre obvious with the Sith, who tends to stress their force power alot more than them jedis.

K_Kinnison
07-04-2008, 09:45 AM
I really find it annoying when someone nitpicks a whole post.

If force powers were greater in power then Yoda Demostrated on Dagobah

The only one in Movies, or even the books to have demostrated Greater strength was Dorsk 81 (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dorsk_81#The_ultimate_sacrifice) but it was a special circumstance using the Yavin Temples to channel force energy into one person, and Dorsk 81 paid for it by having the force energies in his body burn him to a crisp.

Unless there is other evidence in the books/movies to support a claim that Size really matters not, we have to agree to the limit and quite frankly, i think it is a good idea. Otherwise we have too much "God mode" with force users and you end up seeing battles like the end of Matrix 3, or Dragonball Z where planets are destroyed and the combatants just get a little tired. In all the Epic Force battles we have seen it usually boils down to a Saber fight, and not who can toss the biggest object at someone else.

"A house threw at me, he did" would be a silly line I rather not see in Star Wars

Maphisto86
07-04-2008, 12:43 PM
Sorry if you think I was "nitpicking" but I like to be thorough in my replies.

I agree I would not like to see Force powers go "God mode" and Jedi going Neo or Goku on their enemies, but I just think limiting the power of the Force to lifting nothing bigger then a X-Wing makes it seem unremarkable. There are other instances in the EU where vehicles larger then an X-Wing have been moved and even destroyed using the Force power of telekinesis. In the comic series "Dark Empire" as well as the first "Clone Wars" animated series.

Still like you I don't wish to debate symantics but rather just discuss the subject. Actually I feel like we went off topic a bit... so mea culpa. :sweat:

martmeister
07-11-2008, 10:23 PM
I am pretty sure that Luke didn't kill that Gammorean, but he still used some type of force power that stunned the Gammorean.

He should've Force Choke Slammed him! Then Force Break Neck, Force Rip-off-Piggy Head, and finally Force Pull it up and Force Push in onto a skewered pole.

Ctrl Alt Del
07-12-2008, 01:29 PM
^ I smell some hostility toward pig-like races here.

Great Scott!
07-12-2008, 01:35 PM
Luke seems to like to show off his powers in RotJ, while keeping this sorta "yeah whatever" face about it all. He takes pride in what he's learned, maybe even thinking he's the most powerful person alive, until meeting the emperor of course. I think the movie was trying to imply that he would turn to the dark side later in the movie as to throw off the viewers, because it certainly did seem strange to me.

Rev7
07-12-2008, 02:06 PM
^ I smell some hostility toward pig-like races here.
Agreed. He should probably just take a breather. :chew1

Kurgan
04-12-2009, 10:50 PM
Stylistically, yes, ROTJ drops this as another of the hints that Luke is "becoming more like Vader" without bashing us over the head and saying "oh no, this is a DARK SIDE POWER!!!"

But otherwise, the main point is that Luke is much more powerful now, and these alien thugs don't intimidate him. Remember also, that as the Prequels hadn't been written yet, we were left to ourselves to imagine what a "real Jedi" would do in such a situation.

Of course, all of Yoda's blather about seeming pacifism (which seems to contradict his idea that Luke needs to "conquer Vader and his Emperor" (what, non-violently? he doesn't bother explaining this to Luke very well, the scenes on Dagobah could be interpreted as just saying he needs to remain calm while killing) is contradicted by his character's own behavior in the Prequels. Apparently the Jedi have no qualms about "kicking butt" and only employ diplomacy when strategically necessary. These aren't guy with codes against killing.

So then the question is, what DOES it mean to "go darkside"? The prequels don't fully answer this, so again it's a big matter of speculation. The EU tries a lot of different explanations, but these two are interpretations and often contradictory.

So since this is a movie and not a video game (or pencil & paper RPG), it's anyone's guess. My guess is that the movies are basically saying that if you have to kill, do it without personal malice. However I realize that this philosophy could be misread to say it was justifying being a "cold blooded killer." This would have been an interesting topic to explore more fully in the other movies, but they really didn't.

As flawed a movie as "Watchmen" was, I think it dealt with the issue (of "good guys" using lethal force and other questionable methods to achieve their ends) much better.

But perhaps we can say Lucas, in leaving it deliberately vague, left more room for this to be the beginning of a discussion of morality and spirituality, rather than hammering us over the head with his "answer." In the Prequels Anakin comes off as a psychotic, more than anything, while Luke comes off in the OT as a good person at heart who gets his emotions toyed with at various times by various people to manipulate him, but ultimately makes his own decision when the time comes, which turns out to be the right one.

noizer
10-25-2009, 01:31 PM
But in martial arts moves today isnt it possible to stun someone by cutting off most, but not all air?.

i can anwser this since i am a big mixed martial arts fan :thmbup1:

its not cutting of someone's air but stopping the bloodflow to the brains for a few sec that make's someone uncounsious.