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Totenkopf
06-17-2008, 01:20 PM
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/laland/2008/06/also-a-friend-o.html

http://www.portfolio.com/news-markets/top-5/2008/06/12/Countrywide-Loan-Scandal

Don't you just love it when people in power try to squirm when they've been caught in a conflict of interest. If neither of these guys (Dodd and Conrad) had any clue what was going on, that's a pretty good argument for why they should NOT be in govt. If, as is probably more likely, they did.....more of the same form the usual suspects. If Obama gets elected, hopefully this isn't the kind of "change" he thinks we can live with afterward.

ForeverNight
06-17-2008, 01:40 PM
Interesting.

It seems that Obama has more than a few skeletons in the closet, and his share of friends that don't seem to work out well.

I guess we know what type of change we're getting with him now.

Jae Onasi
06-17-2008, 02:06 PM
Every politician has a skeleton or two in the closet somewhere. The challenge is finding the ones with the smallest crypt.

Rev7
06-17-2008, 04:46 PM
Many politicians are corrupt nowadays....unfortunately.... :(

mimartin
06-17-2008, 05:24 PM
Many politicians are corrupt nowadays....unfortunately.... :(
The real question is, are the politicians corrupt before getting to Washington or is the political system itself the corrupting influence?

I guess we know what type of change we're getting with him now.

I can’t predict the future, but any change would be better than the course we are on.

mur'phon
06-17-2008, 05:28 PM
politicians are corrupt

Easy does it:D

Inyri
06-17-2008, 05:55 PM
A shining example of text taken deliberately out of its context. You'd make a great politician, mur'phon. Or a good reporter. :xp:

ForeverNight
06-17-2008, 06:03 PM
I can’t predict the future, but any change would be better than the course we are on.

Any?

Arcesious
06-17-2008, 06:09 PM
Figures... Corrupt Politicians. Like that's original... It's not like it's the first time it's happened... But it still gives me great disgust to see this corruption.

Web Rider
06-17-2008, 06:57 PM
The real question is, are the politicians corrupt before getting to Washington or is the political system itself the corrupting influence?
The adage of "power corrupts" is fitting, the more power people have, or the more access to power they have, the more likly they are to become corrupt.

I canít predict the future, but any change would be better than the course we are on.
You are assuming his change would be for the better. Remember, Nixon campaigned on a platform as the "peace candidate", and I think we all remember his terms were not marked by great era's of peace.

Dan Loto
06-17-2008, 07:06 PM
I'm surprised that one of my senators made the news, if anything.

HIGH ON PIE 14
06-18-2008, 12:49 AM
I think that it is the political system that corrupts them. Unfortunatly to get elected these days you have to bribe, cheat and blackmail your way there. Most politicians probably think that it is justified because they all think that they themselves are what is best for the country and therefore, their actions are "for the greater good."

Web Rider is right - power corrupts. Everbody is corrupt to some degree, but those who have power can actually impliment their corrupt beliefs and unfortunatly the country is caught in the balance.

About Obama's "Change": He keeps saying that he will bring change but he never actually says what this change will be does he? If he did we wouldn't be sitting here wondering if his change will be for the better. He should really think of an answer for that.

~HOP

Arcesious
06-18-2008, 12:56 AM
Well, then check out his website. It tells about everything he plans to do...

Rev7
06-18-2008, 12:21 PM
Easy does it:D
That is the reason that I said 'many'. ;)
A shining example of text taken deliberately out of its context. You'd make a great politician, mur'phon. Or a good reporter. :xp:
Exactly. :D

Totenkopf
06-18-2008, 12:31 PM
The most effective "lies" often contain a kernel of truth. ;)

mur'phon
06-18-2008, 12:42 PM
Inyri: You just listed my two prefered jobs:D

Tot: Yes, though it's often enough that it sounds like the truth.

Arc: I have seen it, and the number of times it mentioned "American jobs" scared me, otherwise he seems okay.

Power corrupts, so idealy we wouldn't need anyone in power, the more realistic aproach seems to be to make it in every "power players" interest to keep each other in line.

Achilles
06-18-2008, 12:50 PM
Power corrupts, so idealy we wouldn't need anyone in power, the more realistic aproach seems to be to make it in every "power players" interest to keep each other in line.You mean like some form of checks and balances spread out over multiple branches of government? ;)

Web Rider
06-18-2008, 01:44 PM
Power corrupts, so idealy we wouldn't need anyone in power, the more realistic aproach seems to be to make it in every "power players" interest to keep each other in line.

the problem is that "we" would have to be a power player to get the power players to listen to us.

mur'phon
06-18-2008, 01:52 PM
You mean like some form of checks and balances spread out over multiple branches of government?

Yup, but a lot more fragmented than the status quo.

the problem is that "we" would have to be a power player to get the power players to listen to us.

Then lets become power players:D Seriously though, I'm looking for like minded folks in the local youth parties, hopefully we'll one day be able to get going with the help of more disenters from other parties. Might work, might not, but it's worth a try:)

Achilles
06-18-2008, 03:19 PM
Yup, but a lot more fragmented than the status quo. I'm assuming that you're speaking of citizen partipation. If I assume correctly, then I imagine that we're of the same mind on this. :)

Totenkopf
06-18-2008, 04:22 PM
Just keep in mind, though, that citizen participation does not equal less corruption. It might spread it around to more recipients, but it's still a big numbers game in the end. Achilles and Mur'phon might band together only to be thwarted by Arc, Rev and Web. Meanwhile, the rest of the population goes back to sleep.

mur'phon
06-18-2008, 04:37 PM
Achilles:Great minds think alike:D

Totenkopf: But if I and Achilles lets say help ourselves to some public money, this is obviously not good for everyone else, so odds are we aren't going to get away with it past an army of people who'd be very supicious of everyone.

Arcesious
06-18-2008, 04:50 PM
Achilles and Mur'phon might band together only to be thwarted by Arc, Rev and Web.

Haha... I like your thinking... :lol:

ForeverNight
06-18-2008, 05:57 PM
@mur'phon: But, if you're taking the public money for your own use, then you would also be liable to spread it around a little bit in order to buy those who would oppose you off.

Also, how many of those who oppose your actions are going to form into a giant mob/army for the express purpose of wiping the universe of your actions?

mur'phon
06-18-2008, 06:08 PM
Yes, but with a lot of people in need of buying off, chances are there is at least one who'll refuse and put my face on the frontpage of tomorrows newspapers.

Totenkopf
06-18-2008, 06:34 PM
That's what spin doctors and lawyers are for......to obfuscate the issue and muddy the waters. ;)

mur'phon
06-18-2008, 06:44 PM
I'm not saying it'll remove corruption entierly, only that it'll make it harder, especially to pull off big things.

Totenkopf
06-18-2008, 08:56 PM
I was originally only adddressing the point that "direct participation" would not remove the corruption inherent in govt, just increase the number of players.

mur'phon
06-19-2008, 04:21 AM
And I argue that with more players, there are more people trying to grab cash for themselves/their projects, but those players want to make sure no-one "steals" "their" money, so less corruption. So no, I don't think it would just increase the number of players.

Totenkopf
06-19-2008, 05:56 AM
Given human nature, I don't find that a very convincing argument. More players doesn't aximatically make for less corruption. Even with all the access to information we purportedly have today, there's abundant corruption taking place. Special interest groups alone have proliferated over time, but I think you'd be hard placed to argue that there's less corruption as a result.