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Astor
07-05-2008, 03:44 PM
Hitler waxwork beheaded in Berlin (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7491280.stm)

Now, we all know Germany can get rather touchy regarding the period starting in 1933 and ending in 1945, but was Tussauds Berlin right to include the most infuential figure in 20th Century German history? Or should they have gone the way of the rest of Germany and forget his existence?

On the one hand, I can understand Germany's reluctance to show such things - it is arguably the darkest period in its history - and the man was reponsible for starting a war that killed millions, and resulted in the cold war.

So what's everybody's thoughts on it? Either the waxwork, or Germany's reluctance to accept past events.

Q
07-05-2008, 03:53 PM
Nice to see that such appropriate sentiment towards the man still exists 60+ years later. :)

Rev7
07-05-2008, 04:34 PM
Here WAS waxwork itself:

http://www.javno.com/slike/slike_3/r1/g2008/m07/y175889426264633.jpg

It looks lifelike. I actually thought that it was him for a second.

What happened is what happend. There really isn't much that we can do about it right now. Its history now. I don't really know if he should be in those museums...I just don't know...

CNN link (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/07/05/germany.hitler/index.html)

I was thinking about starting this thread, but really didn't know how to approach it. :/

Emperor Devon
07-05-2008, 05:17 PM
Defacing a waxwork of Hitler isn't going to accomplish anything. The man's stunt was misplaced and childish.

I'm surprised no one's brought up the fact this was someone else's property he vandalized, either.

Q
07-05-2008, 05:30 PM
Yeah, I should have mentioned that while the sentiment was good, there were certainly better ways to express it than destruction of property.

Totenkopf
07-05-2008, 05:54 PM
@Rev--it's waxwork at a private institution, so the vandal should have stayed out if it offended him so much. Still, given Gemany's nazi past and it's sensitivity to the issue 60+years later, perhaps they could house it outside of Germany (no guaruntee that some other pinhead wouldn't try something, though).

@AK--actually, Gemany has made efforts over the last 60 years to acknowledge the horror inflicted by the nazis.. It's the Japanese, however, who seem to have convenient amnesia when it comes to atrocities commited in the second world war by their military.

@ED--it might accomplish something in his little circle, but I agree that it was a largely empty symbolic gesture. Seeing how your observation came 4 posts into the thread, perhaps it would have come up later anyway. ;) D@mn vandals. :D

Rachel_Ewok
07-05-2008, 06:04 PM
Erasing him from history is not going to bring the perished ones back

This is the perfect way to sum it all up.

I think that if the vandal hated Hitler so much

a) He should not have gone into the museum and
b) Maybe he should take his negative unhappy energy and turn it into something good like a public service thing dedicated to those who perished (you can never have too many of those) to help further educate people so maybe, just maybe atrocities commited by Hitler can be not forgotten, but learned from so that in the future things like that won't happen.

(Or maybe he should head out to Darfur and help out those people instead, but let's not get into that here.)

Web Rider
07-05-2008, 07:47 PM
Lets look at the facts.
Hitler existed.
Nazi's exited.
WWII happened.
All 3 were REALLY influential in history.

Denying any of this, as Germany does on a regular basis, is stupid and only gets people upset with you. It's just the same as holocaust deniers, it's pointless and only serves to show the world that you haven't grown up enough to accept that your predecessors did something stupid and that it's not your fault and that you need to move on.

Personally, I like the way the waxwork looks, it doesn't encite anything, it doesn't make people love Hitler, it doesn't exactly make you go "ZOMG MONSTER!" either. Hitler was a person, a human being who did some very screwed up things. We can't forget that like everyone else, he was just a man. We've all worked so long to build up this effigy of Hitler in our minds of this larger than life devil of incomprehensible evil. And yeah, he was evil, but he wasn't some kind of non-human.


also....was this thread Goodwined from the start?

jonathan7
07-05-2008, 07:53 PM
Here is the waxwork itself:

Some times Rev7 I'm really disappointed with your lack of research; here is the current waxwork;

http://www.lucasforums.com/picture.php?albumid=13&pictureid=890

I think defacing it was pathetic - it concerns me greatly that people try and sweep under a rug what happened, people should be taught the horrors of what happened; not have them hidden.

Totenkopf
07-05-2008, 09:49 PM
Wouldn't be the first time Hitler lost his mind.......;)

The Doctor
07-05-2008, 10:02 PM
@Rev--it's waxwork at a private institution, so the vandal should have stayed out if it offended him so much. Still, given Gemany's nazi past and it's sensitivity to the issue 60+years later, perhaps they could house it outside of Germany (no guaruntee that some other pinhead wouldn't try something, though).
I'm sorry, no. Displaying it outside of Germany would be even more cowardly than not showing him at all.

@AK--actually, Gemany has made efforts over the last 60 years to acknowledge the horror inflicted by the nazis.. It's the Japanese, however, who seem to have convenient amnesia when it comes to atrocities commited in the second world war by their military.
Right, because the US hasn't done anything of the sort. :rolleyes:

It isn't possible to do a display on 20th century German history without including Hitler. It just isn't possible. That would be like depicting Indian history without Mahatma Gandhi, or British History without the Magna Carta. It's just not possible. Period. If you don't like it, don't study the subject. This man's actions are nothing but childish and foolish.

Totenkopf
07-05-2008, 10:18 PM
As regards my point about housing it elsewhere, are you saying that it should HAVE TO stay in Berlin? I've no problem with it being there, but was only thinking it a little less likely to be beheaded again somewhere else. Besides, it's not like the Germans will ever be allowed to forget Hitler anyway. It's no coincidence that the History Channel has often been referred to as the Hitler Channel.

Why so snarky, doc? Was only addressing AK's point about Germany not dealing with its past in WW2. Japan, in WW2 by comparison, has swept it's infamy in that conflict under the rug, preferring to be thought of as the world's first nuke victims. Since I never claimed Americans haven't committed atrocities in any conflict....but I'm sure Canadians have never engaged in "questionable practices", right doc? :rolleyes: ;)
http://www.netnomad.com/canada.html

The Doctor
07-05-2008, 10:44 PM
As regards my point about housing it elsewhere, are you saying that it should HAVE TO stay in Berlin? I've no problem with it being there, but was only thinking it a little less likely to be beheaded again somewhere else. Besides, it's not like the Germans will ever be allowed to forget Hitler anyway. It's no coincidence that the History Channel has often been referred to as the Hitler Channel.
I'm saying that if a German company/individual is going to host a wax museum of German history, then it should indeed stand in Germany. Holding it outside Germany would be just plain silly, and in the case of the Hitler related exhibits, cowardly.

Why so snarky, doc? Was only addressing AK's point about Germany not dealing with its past in WW2. Japan, in WW2 by comparison, has swept it's infamy in that conflict under the rug, preferring to be thought of as the world's first nuke victims. Since I never claimed Americans haven't committed atrocities in any conflict....but I'm sure Canadians have never engaged in "questionable practices", right doc? :rolleyes: ;)
http://www.netnomad.com/canada.html
It was not my intention to be snarky. I apologise if that appeared to be the case.

And I never said Canada hasn't been involved in questionable stuff. But the discussion was in regards to events of the Second World War. Canada did not, in fact, participate in any such questionable practices during the War (apart from maybe the War itself, but that's a completely different discussion).

But hey, I should just be pleasantly surprised that my nationality was remembered. :D

Achilles
07-05-2008, 11:36 PM
Defacing a waxwork of Hitler isn't going to accomplish anything. The man's stunt was misplaced and childish.

I'm surprised no one's brought up the fact this was someone else's property he vandalized, either.QFT

Jae Onasi
07-06-2008, 12:59 AM
Defacing a waxwork of Hitler isn't going to accomplish anything. The man's stunt was misplaced and childish.

I'm surprised no one's brought up the fact this was someone else's property he vandalized, either.
That's only because I didn't get a chance to read this thread until now, or I would have said something about it being vandalism, because it is. :xp: Those waxworks are not cheap, either. Tussaud's likely lost a good chunk of money because of the vandal.

I can understand the extreme hatred for Hitler, especially if one had family member(s) incarcerated or killed in the death camps. However, destroying the wax statue was not constructive. There are far better ways to channel that anger into something useful.

Every country has time periods and people that they'd rather forget ever existed. However, it's important to understand how those events happened and how horrible leaders came to use and abuse power so we can identify and prevent similar situations in the future.

EnderWiggin
07-06-2008, 02:17 AM
Defacing a waxwork of Hitler isn't going to accomplish anything. The man's stunt was misplaced and childish.

I'm surprised no one's brought up the fact this was someone else's property he vandalized, either.

It would definitely suck to be the artist who made wax Hitler.

I would feel really bad at this point if I were him :(

_EW_

Ztalker
07-06-2008, 10:40 AM
I can understand the sentiments there. But no matter how you look at it; it's vandalism and to go into Tussaud's is your own choice. If you don't like what they show; stay away.

But fact remains that the man was a monster. A massmurdering threat for humaniry. But, with all the respect, Germany shouldn't cary the same burden the previous generation of people does. Who would you like to pin the blame on? All people alligned with Hitler are or death, or of old age. They cary the thought of their crimes with them for the remainder of their life.
I think that's enough to know. Beheading suchs a waxwork is unnecesary when you think about it. The current generation (the one who probably allowed the creation of the statue out of historically motives) don't cary the blame.

Web Rider
07-06-2008, 12:09 PM
But fact remains that the man was a monster.
no...he was a man who did monstrous things, as were the people under him.

But, with all the respect, Germany shouldn't cary the same burden the previous generation of people does. Who would you like to pin the blame on? All people alligned with Hitler are or death, or of old age. They cary the thought of their crimes with them for the remainder of their life.
I think that's enough to know. Beheading suchs a waxwork is unnecesary when you think about it. The current generation (the one who probably allowed the creation of the statue out of historically motives) don't cary the blame.

IMO, Germany and whatever generation it's got should continue to carry the blame as long as it's people and government whitewash history to make WWII seem like it never happened. Germany has a gross national amnesia that allows it to "forget" about WWII, I have a friend from Germany about my age and his summation of WWII in German history classes was "Yeah it happened, now in the Cold War....."

When Germany(this applies to any other nation's skeletons), starts teaching it, truly teaching what happened, then they can stop being blamed for it. But as long as they're willing to pretend it doesn't exist, they can still be blamed.

jonathan7
07-06-2008, 12:14 PM
When Germany(this applies to any other nation's skeletons), starts teaching it, truly teaching what happened, then they can stop being blamed for it. But as long as they're willing to pretend it doesn't exist, they can still be blamed.

Agreed; to me banning books (like Mien Kampf) is no different to burning them; both are with the ends of restricting intellectual freedom. And you cannot stop, or argue against someone's perspective/point of view, until you understand. As such Germany could be at risk of what happened happening again, as they are not allowing sufficient research into the Nazi's.

Rev7
07-06-2008, 01:37 PM
Some times Rev7 I'm really disappointed with your lack of research; here is the current waxwork;

[/IMG]

I think defacing it was pathetic - it concerns me greatly that people try and sweep under a rug what happened, people should be taught the horrors of what happened; not have them hidden.
That is what I ment. ;) I guess that I just didn't say it. Sorry.

jonathan7
07-06-2008, 04:38 PM
That is what I ment. ;) I guess that I just didn't say it. Sorry.

No harm done, just next time, make sure you get your photo's from reliable places like Photoshop. :carms:

;) :D

Astrotoy7
09-13-2008, 02:49 AM
I doubt that it is physically possible for anyone educated by western standards to not associate the word "Hitler" with anything that reminds us of Germany.

Irish comedian Dylan Moran did an excellent bit on this once... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-PjyRwfedk&feature=related) (see 1:10 onwards) HitlerHitlerHitlerHitlerHitler :p

mtfbwya

Tommycat
09-13-2008, 04:16 AM
I doubt that it is physically possible for anyone educated by western standards to not associate the word "Hitler" with anything that reminds us of Germany.
Linda Lovelace's cat?

vanir
11-07-2008, 05:15 PM
My family lived in Nazi Germany and whilst they managed to flee some time after the soviets came I do rather consider myself German, even if born in Australia myself. I've long wanted to go home, a little unrealistic prior to the collapse of soviet communism (re.the Berlin Wall). Even now there is still quite some political sentiment regarding censorship of those times, though at least much is taught in German schools regarding the period (required curriculum). I am a little saddened there is such fervor controlling Nazi symbolism as to prevent in some cases accurate historical depictions in public media. I think so long as a disclaimer is included there should never be restrictions upon accurate historical depictions in entertainment or academics (the former for the purposes of suspension of disbelief).
I mean some more conservative Germans could conceivably seek censorship of Star Wars due to the obvious Nazi symbolism involved in the depiction of an evil galactic empire. But is this not going too far?

That said, I do personally find the waxwork disturbing enough that I would little visit it without some degree of perverse fascination. It is something I could perhaps do without, however as a private gallery I recognise the right to an individual decision regarding such things. I believe in rights above all, thereby such evils might be prevented in future. Appreciative knowledge would help in this cause also. Some of the knowledge I was exposed to in early childhood helped concrete my own political sentimentalities towards an old friend, genuine democracy.

Hitler's image does bring up several mixed feelings about many things, a good or a bad thing I'm not sure, but not one I sometimes want around.

HerbieZ
11-07-2008, 05:38 PM
I posed with one in Madame Tussasasasaurus in london a year or two back. Did'nt stay too long because i was getting really evil looks from about every person in there, including Saddam.

CommanderQ
11-07-2008, 05:44 PM
If you think about it, beheading a wax figure of Hitler won't erase that part of history {Destroying a wax figure won't stop evil, this isn't Lord of the Rings, heheheh}. Hitler was indeed probably one of the most evil men in history, but the thing is, Hitler existed and that time won't disappear if we forget it, so cutting up wax figures won't help.

It actually sounds a little funny, "Man Beheads Wax Hitler." Heheheheh, that's not a way to treat artifacts to history, though.

vanir
11-29-2008, 01:35 AM
I think a sentencing should be entirely dependent upon reasoning. If someone had say, family who died in concentration camps there is no way I would wish ill upon them, had they set it alight and run naked around it. You earned that at least, I would say.