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HIGH ON PIE 14
07-06-2008, 09:18 PM
The Jedi Council, especially in K2 is generally a debatable topic. Many don't like them for not helping Revan in the Mando Wars, treating the exile like trash, controversially erasing Revan's memories etc. But I would think that some members are disliked more than others, and many even liked. So I'm curious, which members are you guys favs and least favs? (Pick top two favorites in poll)

Favorites
2) Zez- Kai Ell: He was the only one to admit that the jedi were wrong in not aiding in the Mandelorian wars, and rejecting Revan afterwards. He seemed like one of the few who learned something during exile. Unlike Atris who if anything got worse. He also helps exile and Mira on Narr Shadda.

1) Kavar: While he is not as changed as Zez Kai Ell, he atleast still tries to hold the Republic together and ward off the sith, unlike others such as Vrook who cower on Dantooine. Also seems to have a great deal of respect for the exile.

Least Favorites

2) Vrook: Just a stodgy old gasbag. :D

1) Atris: the only one worse than Vrook. Atris in her self righteous attitude calling the exile bad and then falls to the darkside herself. (I know it was Traya manipulating) Also seems to think that she could face down the sith threat all by herself, steals the Ebon Hawk etc.

~HOP

JCarter426
07-06-2008, 09:29 PM
The only one I have any respect for is Vash, who was the only one who recognized the Exile as a Jedi (in cut content) and actively sought out to fight the Sith. Zez-Kai Ell may have seen the flaw in the Council's decision, but what did he do about it? Nothing. He went and hid on Nar Shaddaa, doing nothing. And when the Exile returned, he was right next to Vrook and Kavar exiling them again.

As for Kavar, on the outside he may appear to be protecting the Republic, but appearances can be deceiving. His plan was to hide, until the Sith revealed themselves. They did that on Onderon, and yet his plan remained the same--to hide, claiming that if they came out of hiding they would be killed by the "true" threat.

All three of them viewed the survival of the Jedi more important than the destruction of the Sith--that was their key flaw. They turned on the Exile because they saw the Exile as a threat to the Jedi, even though the Exile was their only hope of stopping the Sith. And they viewed their own survival as even more important. If they truly cared about the survival of the Jedi, they would have trained Jedi like the Exile, regardless of the risk.

As for the ones in K1...they have such a brief appearance that it's hard to judge.

Darth_Yuthura
07-06-2008, 11:50 PM
I'm going to go over each Council member and give my opinion on them...

Atris: An arrogant, pathetic, detestable creature. Beyond redemption because her belief in the jedi code was so strong that she ignored everything that it represented. I despised her most because she was like Vrook... only with nothing to back her beliefs. She chose the darkside, so I always leave her to choke on her own vomit in the end.

Dorak: Seemed closed-minded, but was not extremely biassed to ideas that defied the jedi.

Kavar: He seemed coerced by Vrook to turn against the Exile. I liked how he was part of the action and not sitting back like Atris. I think his intent was just, but the rest of the Council ruined him.

Vandar: Nice enough and friendly, but was on the side of arrogance. I couldn't tell enough of him to make a judgment, so he's neutral.

Vash: My favorite jedi because of the cut content. She did not follow the code blindly, so she was an ideal council member.

Zhar: "They were foolish to ignore the Council." That signifies that he believes he and the Council are perfect. He's nowhere near Vrook or Atris, but that one quote makes all the difference between a neutral member and a hopeless one.

Vrook: I think he has two faces. One is that he's a great jedi... and he has something to back that statement. The other face is one of a person so lost in his own significance that he is biassed against anything that's against him. In addition, he's been corrupted by the power of being a Council member that he thinks he is entitled to his power. Overall, he's more like a sith than a jedi.

Zez Kia Ell: He didn't help the Exile, but he did realize that the jedi were flawed and would have been a credit to the new order. I liked him second because he had the wisdom to realize that the Council never took responsibility for Revan, the Wars, or their own corruption.


One last note: Those Council members that speak of 'how many died in those wars' NEVER take into account the deaths in addition to those that would have resulted in the Mandalorians crushed the Republic. Any member that says that is hopelessly beyond the jedi.

Fredi
07-07-2008, 12:40 AM
Zez-Kai Ell, he was very wise and he did understand the situation plus he is the only one with a doble-blade lightsaber *mayor points for that*.

Meowster
07-07-2008, 12:51 AM
My vote goes to Vash. Reading through her cut content, it appears that she was in no way as much judgmental as the other masters. I liked Kavar too- I agree with you, Darth_Yuthura. My belief was that Vrook persuaded Kavar to go alone, or something.

Zez-kai Ell gets bonus points for the 'stauche. :xp:

greggomonkey
07-07-2008, 10:27 AM
Dorak because never did anything to stop you and he is interesting.

PrincessJ
07-07-2008, 10:56 AM
I'm gonna go Vandar. But I could just be speciesist. Kavar's a close second. ;)

Ctrl Alt Del
07-07-2008, 12:12 PM
Kavar never ceased to aid people and worlds, even when the order was to cloak on different planets and wait for the next meeting. We all know the role he played on Onderon, my vote goes for him.


Zhar: "They were foolish to ignore the Council." That signifies that he believes he and the Council are perfect. He's nowhere near Vrook or Atris, but that one quote makes all the difference between a neutral member and a hopeless one.

I disagree with this. Of course he believed on the Jedi Code and the Council, he was a master. I think you're jumping to conclusions the moment you say he thought himself to be perfect. He had a point, as those Jedi who followed Revan and Malak (with the exception of the Exile) either turned to the darkside or died, simple.

Rev7
07-07-2008, 01:16 PM
I pretty much agree with what Darth_Yuthura said. I voted Vash, though. I haven't read much of the cut content, but by the way it sounds, we missed out on some good stuff. :(

I also really like Master Kavar. Just his personality was great, IMO. But as D_Y pointed out, the other members of the Council ruined him. Zez-Kai-Ell also seemed to be a pretty just wise Jedi, but he really didn't seem to take much action against the Sith, or anything much else for that matter. He did seem like a pretty wise Jedi though. He saw them as they truely are. :)

HIGH ON PIE 14
07-07-2008, 01:45 PM
I can honestly say that I don't remember what Vash said in the cut content so I could not really make judgement on her. But from what people are saying she seems like the most fair one. As for Zhar, Dorak and Vandar: There is simply not enough in the game for me to make judgments on them.

Agreed, the council did ruin Kavar in a way. He followed Revan in the Mandelorian wars so obviously he had some sense. I think a little more time with the exile could have changed him back. He seemed to respect the exile more than he did the other council members.

Hehe no votes for Atris? I'm shocked... :xp:
~HOP

Ctrl Alt Del
07-07-2008, 01:57 PM
Agreed, the council did ruin Kavar in a way. He followed Revan in the Mandelorian wars so obviously he had some sense.

What? He never did that.

Rev7
07-07-2008, 01:57 PM
Agreed, the council did ruin Kavar in a way. He followed Revan in the Mandelorian wars so obviously he had some sense. I think a little more time with the exile could have changed him back. He seemed to respect the exile more than he did the other council members.
I don't think that Master Kavar (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kavar#Biography) followed Revan during the Mandalorian Wars, for various reasons. First, Kavar would have been exiled much like The Exile. Second, Master Kavar was on the Jedi High Council.

Just thought that I would point that out. ;)

EDIT: Kinda beat me to it Ctrl. :lol:

HIGH ON PIE 14
07-07-2008, 02:02 PM
Oh, when they said Kavar was the only one who had seen war I just assumed they meant the Mandelorian War. Heh...my bad. Well this will teach me not to assume cause when you do you make an ass out of u and me. What war did they mean anyway? Sorry about the confusion. :)

EDIT: Ahh, you know that makes more sense than the Mando Wars when you think about it. Thanks for the clarification. :)

Rev7
07-07-2008, 02:05 PM
....Little is known about Kavar's early life. It is possible that he fought in the Great Sith War....

Little information is known about Kavar during the Jedi Civil War except that he fought alongside the Jedi ranks against the forces of Darth Malak. He was presumed dead at some point during these events, but that was far from the truth
Here is your answer. :D

Ctrl Alt Del
07-07-2008, 02:26 PM
I don't think that Master Kavar (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kavar#Biography) followed Revan during the Mandalorian Wars, for various reasons. First, Kavar would have been exiled much like The Exile. Second, Master Kavar was on the Jedi High Council.
Besides, it doesn't make sense at all because he'll scold you at Onderon about joining Revan on his war against the mandalorians.

EDIT: Kinda beat me to it Ctrl. :lol:

My pleasure. :xp:

TKA-001
07-07-2008, 02:30 PM
Vrook > All, hands down.

Why? Because he's a mean fricking Jedi, but he's still right. He doesn't pull punches. In KOTOR 1, he's rightfully distrustful of Revan, and unlike the other Jedi Masters, he doesn't pretend to like you when he doesn't. In KOTOR 2, Vrook is perfectly justified in disliking the Jedi Exile, as well. After all, you deliberately did what the people you take orders from told you not to do, which resulted in a war which led to the near destruction of the Jedi Order. In short, Vrook is the best because he's a badass that doesn't try to make everything all cushy for the player: he tells you how it is and if you don't like it, then you're welcome to screw yourself as far as he's concerned. He's biased against the player character because he knows that he's right and the PC is wrong. Anyone who isn't afraid to tell Revan and the Exile what a bunch of murderous, hypocritical morons they are gets points in my book, that's for sure. I've never seen anyone ever give a legitimate reason to dislike the guy, other than poorly-disguised demonstrations of Player Character Bias.

Meowster
07-07-2008, 04:20 PM
Those of you who needed to see the cut content of Master Vash:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lonna_Vash

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9RqXk-DfQo

Darth_Yuthura
07-07-2008, 11:26 PM
Vrook > All, hands down.

Why? Because he's a mean fricking Jedi, but he's still right. He doesn't pull punches. In KOTOR 1, he's rightfully distrustful of Revan, and unlike the other Jedi Masters, he doesn't pretend to like you when he doesn't. In KOTOR 2, Vrook is perfectly justified in disliking the Jedi Exile, as well. After all, you deliberately did what the people you take orders from told you not to do, which resulted in a war which led to the near destruction of the Jedi Order. In short, Vrook is the best because he's a badass that doesn't try to make everything all cushy for the player: he tells you how it is and if you don't like it, then you're welcome to screw yourself as far as he's concerned. He's biased against the player character because he knows that he's right and the PC is wrong. Anyone who isn't afraid to tell Revan and the Exile what a bunch of murderous, hypocritical morons they are gets points in my book, that's for sure. I've never seen anyone ever give a legitimate reason to dislike the guy, other than poorly-disguised demonstrations of Player Character Bias.


Vrook failed to realize that the sith war happened because Revan took control of the war. The Council should have known that their followers would not blindly follow them when they give an impossible order. They should have known that if they didn't appoint Kavar as the commander... it would go to Revan or another bold enough to take action.

Vrook should have realized that the sith war could have been avoided if the Council took action and did what their followers would demand. The Council was supposed to speak for the Order... not themselves. I say Vrook is biassed because her absolutely refused to see anything beyond the direct consequences of the Sith wars. Vrook and Atris were fools to think that the jedi that saved the Republic caused the deaths of a few worlds to safeguard the rest of the Republic. The Council also never takes responsibility for Worlds like Cathar that died because they were not protected. How many other worlds would have ended up like Cathar if all the Jedi followed the Council?

As for the exile going against the Council... the Jedi who followed Revan followed the jedi code by protecting the innocent. It wasn't until Revan influenced them that they turned to the DS. If the Council did what the Order demanded, then Revan would not have had the political power he needed to corrupt the jedi. The Mando wars didn't corrupt the jedi... it was Revan's response to the Council's inaction.

The Betrayer
07-08-2008, 06:02 AM
Zez-Kai Eli because he admits that the Jedi made a mistake.
Zhar because he is optimistic with Revan
Kavar because IDK :)

Astor
07-08-2008, 07:27 AM
You know, TKA-001, I think I agree with you (didn't think i'd say that :)). It's about time that we started to show Vrook some appreciation. :lol:

And so it begins...

Vrook failed to realize that the sith war happened because Revan took control of the war.

No, they realised that the only thing that would come out of the war against the Mandalorians was more war. They saw the shadow of future events, and that's why they needed time to examine the threat. It similar to something Kreia says - they needed to determine the situation as a whole, and then decide which string to pull, as opposed to severing all at once.

The Council should have known that their followers would not blindly follow them when they give an impossible order.

It wasn't an impossible order. many followed that order. It was those who joined Revan who lacked discipline, and self control. Revan and Malak themselves sought glory. Sure, they may not have said it, but that's as sure as hell why they went to war.

They should have known that if they didn't appoint Kavar as the commander... it would go to Revan or another bold enough to take action.

Yeah, cause straight after Kavar they'd choose a newly promoted Jedi Knight. :rolleyes:

Vrook should have realized that the sith war could have been avoided if the Council took action and did what their followers would demand. As I said above, they were examining the threat, as opposed to the foolish action of jumping blindly into a war, much as Revan did.

The Council was supposed to speak for the Order... not themselves.

And they did speak for the order. It wasn't their fault that some decided to disobey the will of the council.

I say Vrook is biassed because he absolutely refused to see anything beyond the direct consequences of the Sith wars.

And I supposed you're not biased against the council, then?

Vrook and Atris were fools to think that the jedi that saved the Republic caused the deaths of a few worlds to safeguard the rest of the Republic.

The Council also never takes responsibility for Worlds like Cathar that died because they were not protected.

Yeah, cause it's not the like the Republic had, like, you know, an entire Space Navy for precisely that purpose, is it?

How many other worlds would have ended up like Cathar if all the Jedi followed the Council?

Probably a few, but by that time the Council probably would have decided to act.

As for the exile going against the Council... the Jedi who followed Revan followed the jedi code by protecting the innocent.

The Jedi Code also abhors death in any form, even that of enemies. Simply saying 'they're innocent, let's uphold the code!' isn't enough. They also serve the greater good of the Republic as a whole, not just a few worlds. What may be right for some might not be right for others.

If the Council did what the Order demanded, then Revan would not have had the political power he needed to corrupt the jedi.

There's also a part of the code that says 'Honour the Council'. And the order at large has no business demanding the Council to act. The council's primary purpose is to protect the order so that it may better serve the galaxy.

The Mando wars didn't corrupt the jedi... it was Revan's response to the Council's inaction.

Oh no, cause all that indiscriminate killing can't possibly turn someone down the dark path?

Darth_Yuthura
07-08-2008, 04:39 PM
I'll put it in as few words as possible...

Revan could not have corrupted so many jedi if he just decided to join the sith. It was because he won the Mandalorian War. His followers saw his leadership succeed where the Council would have failed. Even the Mandalorians admit it was Revan that defeated them. The Jedi who followed Revan did so because he earned their respect enough to abandon the Council. It was because they allowed Revan to have a great deed that was worth more than the jedi code.

If the Council took control of the war from the start, there never would have been a civil war. The Council would have had the respect that Revan earned by saving the republic. There is no way to dispute that the Council was where it all the wars started.

Astor
07-08-2008, 04:51 PM
I'll put it in as few words as possible...

You needn't resort to fewer words, on my behalf, I am capable of reading more...

Revan could not have corrupted so many jedi if he just decided to join the sith. It was because he won the Mandalorian War.

His followers saw his leadership succeed where the Council would have failed.

And how do you know that, exactly? As the council never entered the war, that point is irrevelevant - and we'll never know how different it could have been.

Even the Mandalorians admit it was Revan that defeated them.

Of course they're going to admit that he defeated them. He was the supreme commander of the Republic fleet at the time.

If the Council took control of the war from the start, there never would have been a civil war.

That's quite possibly true, but I think, given Revans ambitions, he would have eventually become Dark Lord of the Sith, war or not. But that's into the realms of conjecture, so i'll leave it.

The Council would have had the respect that Revan earned by saving the republic.

Such 'respect' is unsought by the Jedi. They don't concern themselves with respect, glory or any other form of ego massaging activities.

There is no way to dispute that the Council was where it all the wars started.

I don't understand that sentence (the doesn't make sense), so I can't really say anything about it.

Darth_Yuthura
07-08-2008, 05:19 PM
Your logic is flawed. Everything began with the Council stressing their authority more than wisdom.


You needn't resort to fewer words, on my behalf, I am capable of reading more...

Revan could not have corrupted so many jedi if he just decided to join the sith. It was because he won the Mandalorian War.

Exactly! Because Revan won the war, most of the jedi supported him. If the Council won the war, the jedi would think that the Council were the best ones to lead the order.

And how do you know that, exactly? As the council never entered the war, that point is irrevelevant - and we'll never know how different it could have been.

It's not irrelevant. There is no scenario where the Republic would have won if they had waited for the 'true threat' to reveal itself. The Council never gave their followers a reason to follow them. They just said "We are in command. So we are right." They sound more like sith than jedi to me.


Of course they're going to admit that he defeated them. He was the supreme commander of the Republic fleet at the time.

Exactly! I don't know why you used your own logic against your argument.



That's quite possibly true, but I think, given Revans ambitions, he would have eventually become Dark Lord of the Sith, war or not. But that's into the realms of conjecture, so i'll leave it.



Such 'respect' is unsought by the Jedi. They don't concern themselves with respect, glory or any other form of ego massaging activities.



I don't understand that sentence (the doesn't make sense), so I can't really say anything about it.

If the Council declared war on the Mandalorians from the start, Revan would have had no ground to make the claim that the sith ways were the best.

Yuthura Ban became a sith because she had a noble cause to end slavery. She became a sith because she saw the jedi do nothing to end the practice, but eventually saw her cause had been lost and abandoned the sith. Revan was allowed a noble cause that allowed him to recieve followers.

I'll make this the last reply in this regard.

Astor
07-08-2008, 05:37 PM
Your logic is flawed. Everything began with the Council stressing their authority more than wisdom.

I've never said they were stressing wisdom more than authority.

Exactly! Because Revan won the war, most of the jedi supported him. If the Council won the war, the jedi

Sorry, that last sentence in the quote you replied to is actually from your previous response. A mistake, on my part, yes, but not part of my argument.

It's not irrelevant. There is no scenario where the Republic would have won if they had waited for the 'true threat' to reveal itself.

Yes there are, there's plenty. There's never only one outcome. Surely playing KOTOR has shown people that?

The Council never gave their followers reason to follow them. They just said "We are in command. So we are right."

They don't have to give reasons. And they never simply said 'We are in charge'.

They sound more like sith than jedi to me.

Well, that's because both the Jedi and Sith are more alike than both sects would care to admit.

Exactly! I don't know why you used your own logic against your argument.

I wasn't using my own logic against my argument. I was stating that because Revan was supreme commander, it's natural that the Mandalorians would associate him with their defeat, Much in the same way that French associated Wellington with defeat after 1815.

If the Council declared war on the Mandalorians from the start, Revan would have had no ground to make the claim that the sith ways were the best.

Revan didn't simply say, 'look, the Dark Side is better'. He used careful manipulation and coercion to do that. And when that proved difficult, he turned to torture and more extreme tactics.

jonathan7
07-08-2008, 06:54 PM
DY, do you ever think you maybe taking this a little seriously? You may wish to consider that your are being subjective; not that there is anything wrong with that, but consider;

Your logic is flawed. Everything began with the Council stressing their authority more than wisdom.

Subjective. Thought I don't necessarily disagree on this point.

Exactly! Because Revan won the war, most of the jedi supported him. If the Council won the war, the jedi would think that the Council were the best ones to lead the order.

Subjective.

It's not irrelevant. There is no scenario where the Republic would have won if they had waited for the 'true threat' to reveal itself. The Council never gave their followers a reason to follow them. They just said "We are in command. So we are right." They sound more like sith than jedi to me.

Subjective.

Exactly! I don't know why you used your own logic against your argument.

No, AK, is not saying that you don't have a partial point; he is not conceding this; more agreeing to an extent, but not as far as your over emphasis.

If the Council declared war on the Mandalorians from the start, Revan would have had no ground to make the claim that the sith ways were the best.

Subjective and as even Yoda pointed out, the future is hard to see fluid and always in motion.

Yuthura Ban became a sith because she had a noble cause to end slavery. She became a sith because she saw the jedi do nothing to end the practice, but eventually saw her cause had been lost and abandoned the sith. Revan was allowed a noble cause that allowed him to recieve followers.

Again subjective...

EnderWiggin
07-08-2008, 07:15 PM
I'm going to go over each Council member and give my opinion on them...

Atris: An arrogant, pathetic, detestable creature. Beyond redemption because her belief in the jedi code was so strong that she ignored everything that it represented. I despised her most because she was like Vrook... only with nothing to back her beliefs. She chose the darkside, so I always leave her to choke on her own vomit in the end.
She did what she thought was right and was ambitious.

She made a mistake. It happens. Doesn't change my vote.

_EW_

Darth_Yuthura
07-08-2008, 07:17 PM
You're right. I've wasted too much time thinking of this. There's no point in arguing over a fictional world. I still think I'm right and there's no logic in this. Thanks, jonathan7.

jonathan7
07-08-2008, 07:23 PM
You're right. I've wasted too much time thinking of this. There's no point in arguing over a fictional world. I still think I'm right and there's no logic in this. Thanks, jonathan7.

No worries :) We all have our vision of the KotOR era universe, especially given it's an RPG. They key difference is that we all have our own version, and then there is also the "cannon" (aka horrible) version.

As for a lot of the Jedi Council, if Revan is DS in KotOR then the council all are stupid; as they can't see it. It is however slightly different if Revan is LS. :)

Totenkopf
07-08-2008, 11:24 PM
Don't know that I'd say stupid. Perhaps more like unlucky. They were clearly incapable of defeating Malak on their own, hence the desperate attempt to brainwash Revan as their "Hail Mary" pass.

Didn't care for Vrook b/c he was overly arrogant and too stubborn to correct his own mistakes. Aspects of his personality are almost borderline sith-like. His arrogance, contempt and quick temper being but 3 examples. Vash, on the other hand, gets some credit for at least recognizing that the fault of the failure lay with more than the fallen jedi themselves (as did, I suspect, Kavar and ZKE).

Got the distinct impression that the council would have been about as useless fighting the Mandos as they were against the sith. The seemed to have rationalized themselves into a kind of cowardly slumber in the face of great threats. Yeah, they tried to sound high-minded (but "fools rush in where angels FEAR to tread" might have sized up their real outlook). Even in the face of the advancing Sith threat in TSL, they seemed content to merely try to punish the Exile out of a sense of fear of what they thought he (or she) represented than in actually trying to confront the looming danger. Frankly, demonstrating that either they were spiteful or had poor strategic and tactical sense. But, hey, remember that all of our povs here are subjective........(ie you're as likely to convince me I'm wrong as I'm you). ;)

Rev7
07-09-2008, 12:10 AM
We are so p[r]etty. :lol:



:D

jonathan7
07-09-2008, 12:12 AM
You missed an R out there Rev, darling.

We are so pretty. :lol:

Fixed. ;)

Don't know that I'd say stupid. Perhaps more like unlucky. They were clearly incapable of defeating Malak on their own, hence the desperate attempt to brainwash Revan as their "Hail Mary" pass.

Didn't care for Vrook b/c he was overly arrogant and too stubborn to correct his own mistakes. Aspects of his personality are almost borderline sith-like. His arrogance, contempt and quick temper being but 3 examples. Vash, on the other hand, gets some credit for at least recognizing that the fault of the failure lay with more than the fallen jedi themselves (as did, I suspect, Kavar and ZKE).

Got the distinct impression that the council would have been about as useless fighting the Mandos as they were against the sith. The seemed to have rationalized themselves into a kind of cowardly slumber in the face of great threats. Yeah, they tried to sound high-minded (but "fools rush in where angels FEAR to tread" might have sized up their real outlook). Even in the face of the advancing Sith threat in TSL, they seemed content to merely try to punish the Exile out of a sense of fear of what they thought he (or she) represented than in actually trying to confront the looming danger. Frankly, demonstrating that either they were spiteful or had poor strategic and tactical sense. But, hey, remember that all of our povs here are subjective........(ie you're as likely to convince me I'm wrong as I'm you). ;)

Generally I agree with this all but it's missing some green love. Big up Vandar T; I pity da fool that crosses Revan!

Rev7
07-09-2008, 12:15 AM
Oh, sorry. Fix'd! :D

I am a guy, BTW there jonathon. ;)

jonathan7
07-09-2008, 12:17 AM
Oh, sorry. Fix'd! :D

I am a guy, BTW there jonathon. ;)

Yeah; we have known each other for what? 2 1/2 years, I had picked that up in that time :xp:

Looking very sexeh, too, in your avatar Mr. Clean.

Rev7
07-09-2008, 12:24 AM
Thank you very much. =}


:xp:

TheExile
07-09-2008, 02:47 AM
You shouldput another poll: Who's your least fav Council Member...
Epic duel between Atris and Vrook.
But I hate Atris more...
She fell for the DS and with apparently no reason...
Kreia didn't corrupted her, as Atris admits, she has been falling for years in quiet...
And she claims that Exile is a DSer, while in cannon- and in my savegames :D- she is LSer...

Totenkopf
07-09-2008, 03:05 AM
Looking very sexeh, too, in your avatar Mr. Clean.

Thank you very much. =}


Man.....would you to puhlease get a room. :D

J7--you'd have to "big him up" just to look him staight in the eye. ;)
Actually, didn't make any comments about K1 bunch or Atris. Atris, for obvious reasons (betrayer and female conterpart of Vrook) and the K1 crew b/c you don't see them that much (excepting Vrook in TSL) in game. Vandar, the Yoda of yesteryear, seemed genial enough. Can't really say too much more than that.

Burnseyy
07-09-2008, 11:03 AM
I say Kavar because he seemed like the most understanding and least judgemental.

My LEAST favourite is Vrook.
Just eurhgh.

Darth_Yuthura
07-09-2008, 11:37 AM
Okay... I hate Atris much more than Vrook. Vrook is displayed like a military officer and being harsh to his followers in order to strengthen them for what's out there. I would say he was a very capable jedi, but he often did not hold himself to his own standards. He seemed so dedicated to the jedi that he refused to believe that anything opposing them were just. Even when he does admit his failure, he would say it was his fault for not stopping Revan/Exile before they fell. That's not him admitting his error, but telling his enemies that they were wrong... again.

Atris is like Vrook, only she's hypocritical and loves to bend to truth to whatever shape best suits her. She wanted to follow the Exile, but was too scared to defy the Council. Even when the Exile returned, Atris went against she once believed. A belief is supposed to be everlasting and rigid... Atris's beliefs were extremely dynamic.

In addition to that, Atris fell to the darkside because of greed. She loved having power and wanted to have all the power of the order to herself. That's why she wanted to lure the Masters on Dantoine... to be wiped out while she stayed on Telos. She didn't simply ruin herself, she ruined countless others(including Katarr).

That's why I hate Atris the most.

Astor
07-09-2008, 11:51 AM
She wanted to follow the Exile, but was too scared to defy the Council.

It's true that Atris did entertain thoughts of leaving the order to fight in the war, but as far as I can tell, she only thought about that after the war had finished. It was more regret that she didn't go rather than fear of the council.

Even when the Exile returned, Atris went against she once believed.

Atris, more than anyone, believed in the word of the council. She was the one who wanted the Exile executed for betraying both her and the order. This didn't stop her from being overly critical of herself, however.

A belief is supposed to be everlasting and rigid... Atris's beliefs were extremely dynamic.

Beliefs can change, especially as one's understanding grows.

In addition to that, Atris fell to the darkside because of greed. She loved having power and wanted to have all the power of the order to herself.

She wouldn't have fell to the dark side had it not been for Kreia's careful manipulation of people and events, though. Atris considered herself the last of the Jedi, but it was Kreia who convinced her to fall.

That's why she wanted to lure the Masters on Dantoine... to be wiped out while she stayed on Telos. She didn't simply ruin herself, she ruined countless others(including Katarr).

Ummm... that's not what happened. Atris rallied the Jedi on Katarr, to discuss the new threat. In secret, she informed the enemy of this plan so that the Jedi could face the threat head on, and hopefully destroy it once and for all.

Totenkopf
07-09-2008, 12:49 PM
Atris considered herself the last of the Jedi, but it was Kreia who convinced her to fall.

Probably more like Kreia forced Atris to see herself for what she had become. Atris seems to have fallen on her own w/o a lot of help.

EnderWiggin
07-09-2008, 12:49 PM
A belief is supposed to be everlasting and rigid....

I only agree to an extent - you have to be smart enough to realize when your belief is illogical.

_EW_

Rev7
07-09-2008, 02:56 PM
Man.....would you to puhlease get a room. :D
:¬:

Oh, come on. :rolleyes:

Darth_Yuthura
07-09-2008, 05:03 PM
Ummm... that's not what happened. Atris rallied the Jedi on Katarr, to discuss the new threat. In secret, she informed the enemy of this plan so that the Jedi could face the threat head on, and hopefully destroy it once and for all.

The conclave on Katarr was supposed to be SECRET. Atris deliberately defied the Council and the Jedi by revealing that they were meeting there. To put icing on the cake, she didn't go there, herself. She desires authority and power, but is never willing to take any responsibility. Few like these kind of characters and I don't see how anyone would say Atris wasn't evil, greedy, irresponsible, selfish, devious, untrustworthy, or a dark force user.

I only agree to an extent - you have to be smart enough to realize when your belief is illogical.

_EW_

Exactly! Atris should have realized it after everything that has happend, but she didn't.

Rev7
07-09-2008, 05:05 PM
The conclave on Katarr was supposed to be SECRET. Atris deliberately defied the Council and the Jedi by revealing that they were meeting there. To put icing on the cake, she didn't go there, herself. She desires authority and power, but is never willing to take any responsibility. Few like these kind of characters and I don't see how anyone would say Atris wasn't evil, greedy, irresponsible, selfish, devious, untrustworthy, or a true sith.
Atris = epitome of evil

:)

Astor
07-09-2008, 05:13 PM
The conclave on Katarr was supposed to be SECRET. Atris deliberately defied the Council and the Jedi by revealing that they were meeting there. To put icing on the cake, she didn't go there, herself. She desires authority and power, but is never willing to take any responsibility. Few like these kind of characters and I don't see how anyone would say Atris wasn't evil, greedy, irresponsible, selfish, devious, untrustworthy, or a true sith.

I wouldn't say it was supposed to be secret, seeing as the original intention was to lure the Sith there in the first place. Okay, so she may have lied, but she didn't defy the council. Lying and defiance are two separate things.

And Atris wasn't a 'true sith' they live in the unknown regions. The only thing she comes to close to being is a regular Sith.

Rev7
07-09-2008, 05:17 PM
And Atris wasn't a 'true sith' they live in the uknown regions. The only thing she comes to close to being is a regular Sith.
That depends on what your definition of 'true sith' is. ;) Yes, I know that they are supposed to live in the Unknown Regions, but it is a little controversial. But that is for another thread.

Darth_Yuthura
07-09-2008, 05:37 PM
I wouldn't say it was supposed to be secret, seeing as the original intention was to lure the Sith there in the first place. Okay, so she may have lied, but she didn't defy the council. Lying and defiance are two separate things.

And Atris wasn't a 'true sith' they live in the unknown regions. The only thing she comes to close to being is a regular Sith.

Okay... here's the problem: I can understand your logic if you're missing certain things. The conclave WAS secret and Atris did not lie to the Council... she was just deceitful. And the result of her actions resulted in Katarr being destroyed... this is not in dispute.

Astor
07-09-2008, 05:54 PM
Okay... here's the problem: I can understand your logic if you're missing certain things.

I'm not missing 'certain things'. I know perfectly well what I mean.

The conclave WAS secret and Atris did not lie to the Council... she was just deceitful.

Secret to the other Jedi, yes. But not to its chief architect, who was... Atris. And deceit is hardly the tool of just the Sith. The Jedi are deceitful when the need arises, such as they were when Revan was retrained, or when they trained Luke to kill Vader.

And the result of her actions resulted in Katarr being destroyed... this is not in dispute.

I'm not disputing that it resulted in Katarr's destruction. Where did you get that idea from?

Rev7
07-09-2008, 06:10 PM
Luke was trained to kill Vader!? :rolleye1:

Burnseyy
07-09-2008, 07:36 PM
:xp:I'll put it in as few words as possible...

Revan could not have corrupted so many jedi if he just decided to join the sith. It was because he won the Mandalorian War. His followers saw his leadership succeed where the Council would have failed. Even the Mandalorians admit it was Revan that defeated them. The Jedi who followed Revan did so because he earned their respect enough to abandon the Council. It was because they allowed Revan to have a great deed that was worth more than the jedi code.

If the Council took control of the war from the start, there never would have been a civil war. The Council would have had the respect that Revan earned by saving the republic. There is no way to dispute that the Council was where it all the wars started.

i get what you mean... thats actually quite true.
revan and malak would not have had a solid excuse for the Jedi to turn to the dark side, so not as many would have fallen

Darth_Yuthura
07-09-2008, 09:02 PM
I'm not missing 'certain things'. I know perfectly well what I mean.



Secret to the other Jedi, yes. But not to its chief architect, who was... Atris. And deceit is hardly the tool of just the Sith. The Jedi are deceitful when the need arises, such as they were when Revan was retrained, or when they trained Luke to kill Vader.



I'm not disputing that it resulted in Katarr's destruction. Where did you get that idea from?

NO!!!! It was not secret to the jedi! Kavar knew about it. ZKE knew of it. Vrook knew of it. They all expected Atris was there as well. Atris secretly seduced herself to the darkside, which the Council had forbidden. If all she had done was exposed to the jedi... she would have been exiled without a second thought.

Atris revealed that the jedi were meeting on Katarr so the threat (Darth Nihilus) would reveal themselves. If she had not leaked that information or had gone to Katarr, herself... then I would credit her for her act. Instead she was a coward and left the jedi to be slaughtered.

Atris is not a jedi... her belief in her own superiority was far beyond arrogant.

HIGH ON PIE 14
07-09-2008, 10:41 PM
I'm not missing 'certain things'. I know perfectly well what I mean.



Secret to the other Jedi, yes. But not to its chief architect, who was... Atris. And deceit is hardly the tool of just the Sith. The Jedi are deceitful when the need arises, such as they were when Revan was retrained, or when they trained Luke to kill Vader.



I'm not disputing that it resulted in Katarr's destruction. Where did you get that idea from?


I'm sure what DY meant by "true sith" was that Atris was truely a darksider, not a true sith from the unkown regions. They are another species as most hear on the forum know.

You say that she did not lie to the council. She was as you say, the architect of the plan, but she didn't show up for the final stage of it did she? She left the other jedi on Katarr to die. In this way she did defy the council, because they (talking to ZKE I beleive) beleived Atris had gone to, and died at Katarr. ZKE was of course in on this Katarr lure plot and a member of the council. Therefore, Atris defied the council by not following through on her task and go to Katarr and face the threat. Obviously her orders were to go to Katarr, or why else would everybody think she died there. Instead she locked herself away on her ice hole on Telos.

Yes the jedi use deceit for their own purpose, but in each of the situations you mentioned, the jedi used it for a seemingly good purpose. Leaving your freinds to die on Katarr because you are a manipulating coward does not seem to have a good purpose. ;) As DY said if she had gone to Katarr it would credit her. But telling the sith "heres were the jedi are!" (even if it was part of the plan) and then ducking for cover...almost makes it look like she wanted it to happen. But that is speculation and I won't debate it. Bottom line: Atris is a self-centered, stuck up manipulating, witch, who was a jedi only in name.

~HOP

Darth_Yuthura
07-10-2008, 12:22 AM
As DY said if she had gone to Katarr it would credit her. But telling the sith "heres were the jedi are!" (even if it was part of the plan) and then ducking for cover...almost makes it look like she wanted it to happen. But that is speculation and I won't debate it. Bottom line: Atris is a self-centered, stuck up manipulating, witch, who was a jedi only in name.

~HOP

Thank-you!

Rev7
07-10-2008, 12:46 AM
Agreed. I personally think that Atris was a coward. Bottom-line. She was definately a self-centered witch that was arrogant. I don't really understand why two people voted for her. I think that it just crazy, to tell you the truth. She has her own Jedi Academy, with no Jedi (she wasn't even trying to rebuild the Order), and with a handfull of Echani bodyguards fullfulling her every whim. To me, that is not very Jedi like...all that Atris did was meditate in her locked chambers with a hundred Sith holocrons. I'm really not surprised that she turned to the darkside, personally. I don't think that Atris deserves the title of Jedi, "Guardians of the Peace". :disaprove

Astor
07-10-2008, 03:21 AM
NO!!!! It was not secret to the jedi! Kavar knew about it. ZKE knew of it. Vrook knew of it.

I think you've misunderstood what I said. I never said it was a complete secret. But only those jedi who went there, and likely the rest of the council would have been the only ones who knew of it.

But anyway, I think we're going around in circles now. Shall we just agree to disagree? :lol:

Totenkopf
07-10-2008, 03:34 AM
Lying and defiance are two separate things.


Actually, lying is usually but one form of defiance. Also often a sign of contempt. But then so can telling the truth be as well.

Darth_Yuthura
07-10-2008, 10:36 AM
Alright... I am not going to change my opinion about Atris. I have my reasons and those that love her have theirs. It's not like this whole thing is going to accomplish anything.

Totenkopf
07-10-2008, 11:01 AM
Well.....I could understand if EW and Inyri picked Kreia. But Atris as a favorite is a bit baffling. Maybe they were sympathy votes.... ;)

Rev7
07-10-2008, 02:20 PM
...But none for Zhar? :eyeraise: He deserves them a lot more than Atris, IMO.

Yeah, I really do wonder why they picked her...

Totenkopf
07-10-2008, 06:25 PM
Perhaps one of them could explain. EW does seem to have a thing for Kreia (prominent sig), though.

HIGH ON PIE 14
07-10-2008, 07:40 PM
Well.....I could understand if EW and Inyri picked Kreia. But Atris as a favorite is a bit baffling. Maybe they were sympathy votes.... ;)

Haha, yeah Kreia I could understand. She manipulates but she has principles and sticks by them, and seems to have valid opinions about issues. She asserts her advice, but does not act self righteous or snotty. I actually admire Kreia's many talents. Maybe they were sympathy votes. :xp: Even Vrook I could understand, as much as I dislike him myself, but if you are a dark Revan or Exile, his comments make much more sense. In fact Atris is the only one on the list that I can't find one good thing to say about, other than the fact that she saved jedi holocrons. But that hardly counts seeing as all she did was hoard them in her acadamy.

@Rev: I know, I would have thought Zhar would a get at least two or three just for being a twi'lek.

If Inyri or EW would like to explain their decision...I promise not to bite your head off no matter how much I disagree. :D

Feagildin
07-30-2008, 01:05 PM
My favorite was Vash, I was very disappointed that she died before you could meet with her. (I have obviously not seen the cut content.) I decided this based on what she says in the trial scene.

Darth_Yuthura
08-01-2008, 10:03 PM
You know... it's a good thing that Revan took over during the Mando Wars because they suck at it! Once they were given power, most became corrupted and were no longer jedi.

HIGH ON PIE 14
08-03-2008, 11:34 AM
Quite true, though to varying degrees. At least Zez realised his mistake whaen the exile talks to him later and Kavar probably would with a little coaxing. After seeing the cut content, I see that Vash was along the lines of Zez, as far as realizing her mistakes, though, at the exile trial she seemed sympathetic, but too afrasaid to come out and say it. IMHO. Atris and Vrook...well they are another story, though Atris is by far worse. Power corrpts is the moral here I think.

And yes, Its a good thing Revan stepped in, imagine Atris or Vrook trying to inspire loyalty. :wornout:

-HOP

Darth_Yuthura
08-03-2008, 03:30 PM
Another lesson from the Council was that they were so fixed on the jedi code that they refused to believe everything else was wrong. I couldn't stand Vrook saying "no doubt you still blame us for your exile." YEEES... it's not not like anyone else could override the the Council. How could Vrook and Atris have been so convinced that they were always right? In some ways, they were worse than the sith... at least the sith declared that they were the strongest and dominated over their empire. The Council didn't represent the jedi, only themselves.

TKA-001
08-03-2008, 05:24 PM
She has her own Jedi Academy, with no Jedi (she wasn't even trying to rebuild the Order), and with a handfull of Echani bodyguards fullfulling her every whim.
The reason Atris didn't train any Jedi is thrown in the player's face during the game: bringing more Jedi there would attract the attention of Darth Nihilus, automatically meaning that she would be killed. The reason she surrounded herself with the non-force wielding bodyguards was to make herself more difficult for Nihilus to sense.

Quite true, though to varying degrees. At least Zez realised his mistake whaen the exile talks to him later and Kavar probably would with a little coaxing. After seeing the cut content, I see that Vash was along the lines of Zez, as far as realizing her mistakes, though, at the exile trial she seemed sympathetic, but too afrasaid to come out and say it. IMHO. Atris and Vrook...well they are another story, though Atris is by far worse. Power corrpts is the moral here I think.
Could someone explain what these "hideous mistakes" the Council made are? Apparently I'm missing a battleship here.

were so fixed on the jedi code that they refused to believe everything else was wrong.
I've heard this same ridiculous statement repeated over and over so many times it's not even funny. The Jedi Code is just a set of basic, general guidelines that all Jedi were supposed to follow. What does "fixing on it" mean, and what does it have to do with anything?

I couldn't stand Vrook saying "no doubt you still blame us for your exile." YEEES... it's not not like anyone else could override the the Council.
Vrook asked that because he thought the Exile might have actually learned something in ten years.

How could Vrook and Atris have been so convinced that they were always right?
Maybe because they actually were right? Vrook, anyway. Atris was a Dark Jedi.

In some ways, they were worse than the sith... at least the sith declared that they were the strongest and dominated over their empire. The Council didn't represent the jedi, only themselves.
This part in particular puts the most emphasis on the fact that your case is based solely on Player Character Bias: the idea that "in some ways" (whatever that means), it's better to murder quadrillions of people than do the best you can with the information you have.

JCarter426
08-03-2008, 07:27 PM
Maybe because they actually were right? Vrook, anyway. Atris was a Dark Jedi.
Just because they may have been right to exile the Exile the first time doesn't mean they were right the second time around. Who's the one that hasn't learned anything after all those years this time?

Melly
08-04-2008, 12:23 AM
The reason she surrounded herself with the non-force wielding bodyguards was to make herself more difficult for Nihilus to sense.


I, and Kreia, beg to differ:

"You have gathered Sith holocrons, Sith teachings from across the galaxy. It is why you have chosen servants who cannot feel the Force. And most importantly, they cannot feel what you have become."

jonathan7
08-04-2008, 09:10 AM
Could someone explain what these "hideous mistakes" the Council made are? Apparently I'm missing a battleship here.

Your kidding right?

Vrook the council et al; firstly let millions of innocent people die during the Mandalorian Wars - they repeated the mistake the Republic had made prior to this - which was watching and waiting. Eventually the Mandalorians attacked the Republic. The Council split the order, not Revan and Malak - it was the Council who spawned the Jedi Civil War - with the decision not to go to war. They then Exiled the only Jedi not to have fallen to the Dark Side on Revan's forces - what? That is not the action of a forgiving/understanding Council.

They then ran for cover, and when the Exile returned - they then wanted to watch and wait some more so attempted to Exile their only chance to stop Nihilis and Sion - wow what strategic brilliance. The question isn't what mistakes did they make, more when did they ever do anything right?

Also, you may wish to note in TSL Vrook's alignment is 60 - that about says it all.

Vrook asked that because he thought the Exile might have actually learned something in ten years.

What was the Exile meant to learn, most of what had transpired was Vrook's fault.

TKA-001
08-04-2008, 02:53 PM
Just because they may have been right to exile the Exile the first time doesn't mean they were right the second time around. Who's the one that hasn't learned anything after all those years this time?
Actually, they were right both times. Getting rid of the Exile the second time around was the most logical thing to do, considering what they knew. Sure, the Exile was the only force wielder who could attack Nihilus without being killed instantly, but how were they supposed to know that? Even the Exile her/himself didn't know that until the confrontation onboard the Ravager.

"You have gathered Sith holocrons, Sith teachings from across the galaxy. It is why you have chosen servants who cannot feel the Force. And most importantly, they cannot feel what you have become."
Why should Atris care if they figured out "what she became"? Besides, all that proves is that there was more than one reason for the Handmaidens being around.

That aside, the dialogue which you quote is cut, and therefore has no weight on what happened, rather than what might have happened.

Vrook the council et al; firstly let millions of innocent people die during the Mandalorian Wars
So if they jumped in immediately, the Mandalorians would have been defeated just as easily? The nuclear warheads on Duro (for example) would have simply not been used? The battle at Malachor, where Revan massacred most of his/her own entire fleet would never have happened?

Why do people seem to think that the Jedi would've made an enormous difference? The only reason the Republic was losing the Mandalorian War was their sickeningly incompetent leadership. Their fleets and armies vastly outnumbered the Mandalorians. The only thing that Revan did to turn the tide was serve as an effective military commander. The fact that he/she and her/his colleagues were Jedi had little to do with it.

The Council split the order, not Revan and Malak - it was the Council who spawned the Jedi Civil War - with the decision not to go to war.
Player Character Bias. Nobody on the Council told Revan and her/his band of hooligans to leave for the Mandalorian Wars. They decided to do that on their own. Their only failing in that regard was apparently being unable to teach their Jedi to to actually obey their leaders.

The Council sure as hell did not tell Revan to turn to the dark side and start another war. The Council's mistake there was letting Revan and his/her followers get away with their rebellion. Shouldn't they have sent other Jedi to detain Revan and his/her renegades? Of course, for whatever reason, they didn't do that and what happened afterward is history.

They then Exiled the only Jedi not to have fallen to the Dark Side on Revan's forces - what? That is not the action of a forgiving/understanding Council.
They exiled the Exile because he/she was a threat, and certainly a bigger threat than any common Dark Jedi. Also, for the record, they never claimed to be forgiving. It's not their job to forgive the enemy.

They then ran for cover, and when the Exile returned
Remember the Conclave on Katarr? When the Jedi showed themselves, Darth Nihilus killed all of them, not to mention everything else on the entire fricking planet. Of course they ran for cover. Anything else would be suicide.

they then wanted to watch and wait some more so attempted to Exile their only chance to stop Nihilis and Sion - wow what strategic brilliance.
It worked, didn't it? The Exile killed off the Sith Triumvirate's leadership. Of course, that happened after they were dead, so I suppose that was at best a pyrrhic victory for them. Also, the fact that they died immediately after reuniting on Dantooine shows the futility of doing anything other than waiting for an opportune moment to act.

Also, you may wish to note in TSL Vrook's alignment is 60 - that about says it all.
This tidbit of information is what in the military would be called "completely irrelevant".

The question isn't what mistakes did they make, more when did they ever do anything right?
most of what had transpired was Vrook's fault.
Geeze, you're not even pretending to not be biased toward the Exile/Revan. Saying that the Council was wrong is one thing, but saying that the death toll of the Mandalorian Wars as well as the entire Jedi Civil War was their fault even though Revan is the one who started it is insane.

JCarter426
08-04-2008, 03:14 PM
Even the Exile her/himself didn't know that until the confrontation onboard the Ravager.
You don't know that. You're assuming that, but you don't know that.
Sure, the Exile was the only force wielder who could attack Nihilus without being killed instantly, but how were they supposed to know that?
Because they know that Nihilus feeds on the Force, and the Exile lacks the Force. It doesn't take a large leap to go from A to B.
Actually, they were right both times. Getting rid of the Exile the second time around was the most logical thing to do, considering what they knew.
What did they know? They knew the Exile had saved Dantooine, Onderon, and Telos. They knew the Exile had united sworn enemies in order to fight a mutual opponent. They knew the Exile had the power to rally armies to their cause, because they had done just that in the Mandalorian Wars, and had emerged victorious. And they knew they had no chance of winning on their own.

TKA-001
08-04-2008, 03:42 PM
You don't know that. You're assuming that, but you don't know that.
On the other side, you're assuming that the Exile did know that, even though it is never suggested or implied.

Because they know that Nihilus feeds on the Force, and the Exile lacks the Force. It doesn't take a large leap to go from A to B.
Vrook and the others only knew about the Exile. They didn't know anything about Nihilus or the nature of his power except that a concentration of force-wielders in one place draws him to their location. They didn't know he was a wound like the Exile.

jonathan7
08-04-2008, 03:45 PM
<snip>

Basically your wrong, however I don't think you will be persuaded because I'm apparently biased *sniff sniff* is that irony I smell? Anyway, I can't really be bothered to expand the energy required to reply so instead I'm going to do this;

Read this and then come back, pretty much most of us who discuss TSL have read it - though from your answers I can only deduce you haven't, will do you good; http://fromearth.net/LetsPlay/KOTOR%202/index.html

If you've not realised then that you are in fact incorrect, there is no hope for you :xp:

Gurges-Ahter
08-04-2008, 04:29 PM
I voted for Kavar. Most of them seemed like douches, but at least Kavar was a badass douche.

TKA-001
08-04-2008, 04:46 PM
Read this and then come back, pretty much most of us who discuss TSL have read it - though from your answers I can only deduce you haven't
For your information, I read that thing several months ago, and I've analyzed numerous parts of it since then. I'm not sure how any of it is supposed to support your argument. It's not evidence of anything; just another person's interpretation, analysis, and opinion.

Basically your wrong, however I don't think you will be persuaded because I'm apparently biased *sniff sniff* is that irony I smell?
If you've not realised then that you are in fact incorrect, there is no hope for you:xp:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y67/MPK567/HK-50.jpg
Translation: I'm a smug, egotistical jackass who for whatever reason can't actually defend my own argument. Therefore, instead of being convenient for all parties involved and staying out of the debate which I don't even want to participate in, I'll link to some other person's opinion and try to pass it off as indisputable proof of my opponent being "incorrect" even though we're trying to document our opinions, not prove each other "wrong". Addendum: For good measure, I'll mock my opponent with infuriating self-righteousness by implying that he is an ignorant simpleton for not reading the "evidence" which I linked to (even though it's entirely possible that he already has), and furthermore, if it does not change his opinion, then "there is no hope for him." Conclusion: I no longer wish to participate in this argument, but I refuse to let him "win."

jonathan7
08-04-2008, 06:55 PM
Translation: I'm a particularly smug organic who for whatever reason can't actually defend my own argument. Therefore, instead of being convenient for all parties involved and staying out of the debate which I don't even want to participate in, I'll link to some other person's opinion and try to pass it off as indisputable proof of my opponent being "incorrect" even though we're trying to document our opinions, not prove each other "wrong". Addendum: For good measure, I'll mock my opponent with infuriating self-righteousness by implying that he is an ignorant simpleton for not reading the "evidence" which I linked to (even though it's entirely possible that he already has), and furthermore, if it does not change his opinion, then "there is no hope for him." Conclusion: I no longer wish to participate in this argument, but I refuse to let him "win."[/COLOR]

*Sigh*

No it's like this; some of us have this thing called real life and don't consider a petty squabble over KotOR 2 to be particularly important; If you wish to think you have won, or that you are more intelligent than me, go right ahead I'm really not bothered, nor am I overly bothered about if you change your mind over K2 or not. I was nearly not bothered enough to respond.

However, its J7 story time - a history lesson what fun! - How it is pertinent I leave you to figure out.

One day in the Sudan, there was a devout Muslim worshipper and he had a vision from the prophet Muhammed - that he was the The Mahdi (the chosen one basically) and that he should be allowed to pray in all of Islam's mosques and that Islam should be united, and recognize him as the Mahdi. Anyone who did not do this would be killed.

His rebellion grew - he wanted to throw the Egyptians out of the Sudan - the British sent a guy called General Gordon to try and stop this - Gordon heroically snuck into the Mahdi's tent and tried to negotiate - the Mahdi was cordial but said he was going to get the Egyptians out, and that the streets of Khartoum would run with the blood of his enemies. The British tried to avoid military engagement and did everything they could to get Gordon out; Gordon being an honourable chap refused to leave the Civilians of Khartoum to their death - it cost him his life; as well as pretty much everyone in Khartoum being killed. When the British finally acted - they arrived two days late. The Mahdi later died of typhus, and the British stopped his uprising, killing lots and lots of people, while famine ravaged the land and to this day Sudan, still suffers from many of the problems from back then. - Inaction serves no-one; especially against reckless aggression, by an enemy who doesn't care who or what he does to acheive their objective; the longer you leave it the stronger your enemy gets, the more innocent people die, and the ramifications of the above gets worse and worse, and lasts for a longer period of time.

*Note this was a simplified version.

Corinthian
08-04-2008, 07:33 PM
Wow, this thread rapidly descended into melodramatic. Nobody really cares about my opinion about these matters, but I'd like to suggest that it be locked.

Q
08-04-2008, 07:39 PM
In an effort to put this thread back on track, I voted for Vash because of her views and her treatment of the Exile in the cut content.

Burnseyy
08-04-2008, 08:55 PM
In an effort to put this thread back on track, I voted for Vash because of her views and her treatment of the Exile in the cut content.

I've seen some of the cut content, but not the one about Vash. Where would I look to find it?

jonathan7
08-04-2008, 09:03 PM
I've seen some of the cut content, but not the one about Vash. Where would I look to find it?

You may find this; http://fromearth.net/LetsPlay/KOTOR%202/Update%2041/index.html

You may want to download this too; http://knightsoftheoldrepublic.filefront.com/file/Lonna_Vash_Mod;81631 - Excellent mod by Sikon, one of the best around!

Burnseyy
08-04-2008, 09:16 PM
You may find this; http://fromearth.net/LetsPlay/KOTOR%202/Update%2041/index.html

You may want to download this too; http://knightsoftheoldrepublic.filefront.com/file/Lonna_Vash_Mod;81631 - Excellent mod by Sikon, one of the best around!


Thanks a lot, that's really helpful :^: now I see what the fuss is about.

And is that a mod to put Vash's cut content in? Wow, I really should start looking at mods more often lol

Darth_Yuthura
08-04-2008, 09:41 PM
Finally! Zhar has a vote.

He may not have much personality, but at least he wasn't a hag, like Atris, or an arrogant old geezer like Vrook. I found it interesting just how many times this thread has been revived. How could anyone be willing to go to such lengths to defend their vote?!

There have been a few dedicated Vrook or Atris fans that absolutely refuse to accept that they are a minority. Atris and Vrook are very polar characters... you either love them or despise them... I would suggest avoided a long-winded debate over characters that don't exist!

Burnseyy
08-04-2008, 09:47 PM
Finally! Zhar has a vote.

He may not have much personality, but at least he wasn't a hag, like Atris, or an arrogant old geezer like Vrook. I found it interesting just how many times this thread has been revived. How could anyone be willing to go to such lengths to defend their vote?!

There have been a few dedicated Vrook or Atris fans that absolutely refuse to accept that they are a minority. Atris and Vrook are very polar characters... you either love them or despise them... I would suggest avoided a long-winded debate over characters that don't exist!


I hate Vrook for exactly that - he's an 'arrogant old geezer' :lol:
Jolee would win him in a fight, anyday.

But yes, I liked Zhar, but he just wasn't a 'favourite'. I don't like many of the council, to be precise... I picked Kavar purely out of his empathy for the exile, and the fact that he was more friendly than accusing.

And someone mentioned it before... he didn't just hide like everyone else. He continued to help people, and fight for justice. :^:

Darth_Yuthura
08-04-2008, 09:54 PM
My issue is that Kavar and ZKE seemed to follow Vrook without any consideration for their own authority. How could those two have known they had power to influence, but yield to Vrook? Surely they would have followed Vandar if he were the top dog, but they followed the lead of whomever was in front of them... like the sith.

Burnseyy
08-04-2008, 10:06 PM
My issue is that Kavar and ZKE seemed to follow Vrook without any consideration for their own authority. How could those two have known they had power to influence, but yield to Vrook? Surely they would have followed Vandar if he were the top dog, but they followed the lead of whomever was in front of them... like the sith.

I think any member of the Council would have done the same thing. They're the council, they listen to the ones above them - that might make them like the sith, but who said the Council were any good? lol

No matter where you go, there will always be people following someone who is wrong - even in real life. It doesn't matter who they are, they just follow. You'll get a few people who go against it, but in that situation would you have gone against Vrook or the Exile?

They probably figured, since he/she IS an Exile, Vrook must be right, even if they thought/knew otherwise.

Darth_Yuthura
08-04-2008, 10:20 PM
I think any member of the Council would have done the same thing. They're the council, they listen to the ones above them - that might make them like the sith, but who said the Council were any good? lol

No matter where you go, there will always be people following someone who is wrong - even in real life. It doesn't matter who they are, they just follow. You'll get a few people who go against it, but in that situation would you have gone against Vrook or the Exile?

They probably figured, since he/she IS an Exile, Vrook must be right, even if they thought/knew otherwise.

It wasn't a matter of respecting Vrook over the Exile... it was a matter of doing what they believed was right. ZKE said the Council refused to realize it was flawed. He should have either been absent or willing to do what he knew was right.

Kavar was sympathetic, but I don't think he ever admitted the Exile was wronged. I could understand why he didn't support her, but that didn't explain why he followed Vrook. I regret not seeing Vash throw in her opinion. She admitted what ZKE had and would have known that Vrook was just condemning the Exile a second time because he refused to believe the Council could have been the ones who were wrong.

I just don't know if Vrook and Atris were biassed because they were on the Council or if they were on the Council because they were biassed (against the dark side or enemies of the Order). I could understand the first time she was exiled, but surely even Vrook could see where the Council's actions had lead the jedi. They weren't usurped, so they couldn't blame anyone but themselves... and some continued shifting the blame away from themselves.

Burnseyy
08-04-2008, 10:28 PM
It wasn't a matter of respecting Vrook over the Exile... it was a matter of doing what they believed was right. ZKE said the Council refused to realize it was flawed. He should have either been absent or willing to do what he knew was right.

Kavar was sympathetic, but I don't think he ever admitted the Exile was wronged. I could understand why he didn't support her, but that didn't explain why he followed Vrook. I regret not seeing Vash throw in her opinion. She admitted what ZKE had and would have known that Vrook was just condemning the Exile a second time because he refused to believe the Council could have been the ones who were wrong.

I just don't know if Vrook and Atris were biassed because they were on the Council or if they were on the Council because they were biassed (against the dark side or enemies of the Order). I could understand the first time she was exiled, but surely even Vrook could see where the Council's actions had lead the jedi. They weren't usurped, so they couldn't blame anyone but themselves... and some continued shifting the blame away from themselves.

I guess in a way, you could compare Vrook to old people in our day and age... they don't want to change their opinion on anything. of course that's just a stereotype. >.> kinda...

I couldn't say I'd be thinking all too straight in that situation - it was a now or never thing, and though they knew they were wrong, I don't think they wanted to risk another big war or dilemma concerning the Exile. Basically, Vrook saw the Exile as an immediate threat, especially to his place in the Council.

As for Atris, she has no excuse. She's just selfish, spoilt and cruel. I think she, much like Vrook, was powercrazy because of their place in the (previous) Council, and thought they could enforce their opinions everywhere, and have them made law.

JCarter426
08-04-2008, 11:15 PM
My issue is that Kavar and ZKE seemed to follow Vrook without any consideration for their own authority.
Eh? The decision was unanimous. Vrook, Kavar, and believed the Exile should be exiled once again. It's not like they bowed down to Vrook; they were equals, and they made the decision together. And a such, the blame should be equally placed.

In some ways I'd say Ell and Kavar were worse than Vrook. At least he was honest about his views on the Exile. Kavar treated them like a friend, only to stab them in the back later. Ell claimed the Council was wrong for casting out the Exile, but then did it again in a heartbeat.

Gurges-Ahter
08-05-2008, 10:24 AM
That's a good point, but I don't know if I agree that Kavar only acted like his friend - I think he truly felt sympathetic toward the Exile. His attitude was more of a "look kid, I like you, but I gotta do this for the greater good" as opposed to "you're evil and I'm scared and I hate you". The end result is the same, but I'd prefer the former position to the latter.

HIGH ON PIE 14
08-05-2008, 11:11 AM
I guess in a way, you could compare Vrook to old people in our day and age... they don't want to change their opinion on anything. of course that's just a stereotype. >.> kinda...

I couldn't say I'd be thinking all too straight in that situation - it was a now or never thing, and though they knew they were wrong, I don't think they wanted to risk another big war or dilemma concerning the Exile. Basically, Vrook saw the Exile as an immediate threat, especially to his place in the Council.

As for Atris, she has no excuse. She's just selfish, spoilt and cruel. I think she, much like Vrook, was powercrazy because of their place in the (previous) Council, and thought they could enforce their opinions everywhere, and have them made law.

Oh, Atris, don´t even get me going on her again. A short, but acurate summary Burnseyy.

Yeah, the exile´s powers, were largely an unknown. I know the council had some idea of the nature...but the extent, maybe not. They feared the exile because deep down they knew he was more powerful. They took the easy "let just kill him/her" approach.

JCarter426: Thats a good point. Kavar uses the exile (if LS) to defeat Tobin´s army attacking the palace but then casts the exile aside like an old pair of shoes. Oh, sure, he treats the exile nicely enough, but when it comes down to the decision that matters...he screws the exile over. Hmmm, didn´t think about that when I voted for him...

I would have to say though, that while ZKE and Kavar did not bow down to Vrook, I could not see them making that decision without his considerable influence.

-HOP

JCarter426
08-05-2008, 11:44 AM
I would have to say though, that while ZKE and Kavar did not bow down to Vrook, I could not see them making that decision without his considerable influence.
Eh, my impression on the three masters in the game was that Ell does everything Kavar says out of respect (he's always babbling on about Kavar's plan and Kavar being the best tactician), while Vrook kind of thought Kavar's sense of tactics was worse than Atris'. In any case, I doubt Kavar would listen all that much to Vrook; I see it going down with Vrook and Kavar deciding on exile, with Ell just nodding in silence.

And remember, as Kavar says: "The choice of one was the choice of us all." :p

Darth_Yuthura
08-05-2008, 01:41 PM
This particular threat is so entertaining to watch. I just enjoy the constant battle for who daddy loves more!

I still think that Revan the the Exile were right to defy the Council. Everytime they are criticized by the Council, they are always regarded as failures.

-Even ZKE said 'Not once did the Council not take responsibility for Revan, Malak, Exar, or you(Exile).' He admitted the Council was at fault because these individuals were failures... he didn't even consider that maybe they did what they believed was right and the Council was defying the jedi ways.
-The darkside Council ending where Vrook survives has him blaming himself... for not having stopped the Exile long ago. When Malak was dominating the Galaxy, Vrook said the jedi (not the Council) had failed the Republic. He also blamed Revan for falling long before the Mando Wars w/out anything to back his claim.
-Kavar said that much more harm was done because Revan and Exile defied the Council... he never considered that they resolved the Mandalorian threat. And despite the Sith war, a crippled Republic was better than a crushed Republic.
-Zhar stated how Revan and Malak were foolish to defy the Council... he never bothered to consider that they had good reason to join the Republic forces. Never did he consider if they obeyed the Council and the Republic was crushed... but he was glad that someone other than the Council did the dirty work of defeating the Mandalorians.
-Vash... admitted what ZKE had, but still had not done anything for the Exile when or after she returned from the Mando Wars. She had good beliefs, but no deeds behind that.
-Atris... the worst of them all. She completely ignores fact and bends the truth to what shape best suited her. Often, the outcome resulted in her gaining power and others suffering.

I'd say that all the Council were flawed... some just more than others.

Endorenna
09-17-2008, 11:31 PM
Hmm, I'll have to analyze all these people before I can vote.

Atris: I hate her guts. I SO enjoy killing her in TSL! And she fried Handmaiden, who's one of my favorite characters! Course, I might have to vote for her simply because I enjoy killing her...

Dorak: Whatever. He just sort of...stands there.

Kavar: With friends like that, who needs enemies?

Vandar: He lost any sympathy I might have had for him when he first opened his mouth and didn't speak backwards. ;) And he's a minor character. He stands there in a cutscene, and that's 'bout it.

Vash: I liked her the moment I saw her. I think she was an idiot to exile the Exile, but then, so was the rest of the Council, so I can't burn her on that.

Vrook: DIE, JEDI DOG! Oh, what am I saying? He's the leader of the Council! (Arrogant jerkwad had it comin' to him when I killed him yesterday...) He destroyed any remorse I had in killing him when he started berating me for rescuing him! (Is that a Jedi habit, insisting that they weren't rescued?!? First Bastilla, and now Vrook! No wonder the Jedi Order went to pot!) :lol:

Zez-Kai Ell: I liked him at first, but then Dantooine came along, and that put a little kink in things. Between him and Kavar, it's like--"Hi, Masters, how ya doin', been chillin' on Nar Shaddaa and Onderon, glad you aren't dead, no, I don't hate you for throwing me out of the Order, I'll be on Dantooine in ten hours, cya there! Oh, you're gonna cut me off from the Force? Jooooooooooooooy...Thanks for the moral support, guys..."

Zhar: He sorta stood there lookin' dumb. Once he gives me my lightsaber, I can't care less what happens to him.

So, I guess it's between Vash and Atris! Well...I think I'll take Vash! She doesn't scream at me or turn to the Dark Side, she just dies. :xp:

And, with a dramatic click of my mouse, I resurrect this thread once more! (click) :lol:

mattig89ch
09-18-2008, 02:41 PM
I like Kavar. He was still in the fight. the other two were cowering in some hole, while he was still advising and helping people.

Allronix
09-20-2008, 11:40 PM
Atris: Geez...issues, much? Crazy, much? Repressed? You freaking bet. About the mildest comment I made was that she seriously needed to get laid.

Dorak: Somewhat dull, not terribly helpful. Just an exposition God.

Kavar: Interesting bloke. Actually doing his job. Hated to have to skewer the dude on my saber.

Vandar: Almost spilled the beans several times, and probably wanted to. I liked that he was charging in, shoulder to shoulder with Dodonna at the Star Forge brawl.

Vash: Woman in the Fridge, sadly. She actually seemed like she had potential.

Vrook: He was an ass. He needed to be an ass. Still, he typified most of the things I dislike about Jedi - hard adherence to dogma and heirarchy, at the expense of Living Force. He was ruled by his fear, both with Revan and with Exile, covering it with anger and hatred he denies to the hilt.

Zez-Kai Ell - Nice enough fellow, but he was a broken coward by the time we see him on Nar Shadaa.

Zhar - I voted for Zhar. It had to have sucked to get the short straw and end up retraining Revan. He seemed a good an honest fellow who believes and practices what he preaches.

ChAiNz.2da
09-21-2008, 07:41 AM
Rather than make a long(er) winded post, I'm just gonna agree with Allronix's post.. couldn't have said it better :D :thumbsup:

Yar-El
09-21-2008, 10:06 AM
I voted for Kavar.

What has allways puzzled me was the whole, "I'm going to help you, so I can kill you later" attitude. Some of the story felt awkward, and the council members seemed to have suffered from amnesia. Why did the writters do that? It felt as though there was a sudden moment of them being out of character. Maybe that is a subject for another thread. :giveup:

HIGH ON PIE 14
09-21-2008, 03:57 PM
You mean the attitude o f the council members, right? Well, all of the members (at least Zez and Kavar) seemed to realize that the exile was stronger then them individually. Kavar used the exile to help him beat Vaklu (LS). I voted for Kavar too. They felt the exile was a threat but were not beneath using him/her to accomplish their goals. What sudden moment are you reffering to?

~HOP

Darth_Yuthura
09-21-2008, 04:07 PM
Yeah... since I hate Atris so much, I'll just stab at her again.

She is so arrogant that I can't figure out where she ever got where she was. Vrook at least had something to back why he thought and believed the way he did, but Atris was just a raw jedi w/out anything to go by. How did she POSSIBLY get selected for the Council in the first place?

It's fun to anger her and hear her curse your name only to know you're better than she could ever have been! I love leaving her to the sith holocrons more than closing her eyes forever.

TKA-001
09-21-2008, 05:59 PM
http://www.pfpaug.org/core/images/hot_air.jpg

Yar-El
09-21-2008, 07:51 PM
You mean the attitude o f the council members, right? Well, all of the members (at least Zez and Kavar) seemed to realize that the exile was stronger then them individually. Kavar used the exile to help him beat Vaklu (LS). I voted for Kavar too. They felt the exile was a threat but were not beneath using him/her to accomplish their goals. What sudden moment are you reffering to?
~HOP Upon facing them on Dantooine, the council seemed characteristically different. Kavar and Zez were so supportive on NarShaddaa and Onderon. Facing them on Dantooine seemed almost sithish. :( I was hoping for one of them to turn and help. No one came to your defence. :(

luckyariot
09-21-2008, 09:24 PM
Wow. I really think my interpretation of Atris is pretty generous after viewing this thread... :lol: And I still find her an arrogant, half-crazy not-Jedi. Call me crazy, but I don't dislike Vrook. I definitely do not like him at all, but I don't think he's a bad guy. He's one of those tough military-style instructers who has everyone of his students having their most enjoyable darkside fantasy being killing him, but when a battle goes to hell, they probably thank him for being hard on them... as corny as that sounds. Even in the game, when the Council resentences the Exile to... exile, the player doesn't take it as hard as when Kavar and Zez-Kai Ell agree to it.

Speaking of Kavar... why is he so loved? I mean, he is definitely one of the more active Council members, he acted nicely enough to the Exile (nothing compared to Vash in cut content obviously), and appreciated their help, but in the end... back-stab! :confused: When did he become so lovable? I'm sorry, I just needed to get that out there. :xp:

Although all of these beings were flawed, some ticked me off more than others. *sigh* Would that hypocrites realize their ways? TKA-001 really summed it all up. :D

HIGH ON PIE 14
09-21-2008, 10:50 PM
Upon facing them on Dantooine, the council seemed characteristically different. Kavar and Zez were so supportive on NarShaddaa and Onderon. Facing them on Dantooine seemed almost sithish. :( I was hoping for one of them to turn and help. No one came to your defence. :(

True, they did. I think Vrook was to blame but apparently others dissagree. Part of it could be what I said earlier. They all knew the exile was stronger than them individually and knew they would not beat him/her alone...with two others on their side, perhaps they saw their chance to finish off the exile. Thats the only plausible thing I can think of.

Still, Zez acted like he would not drain the exile given the chance on NS...very strange indeed.

@luckyariot: Oh, yes, DY and myself especially loath her. I was even going to form a social group called the "We Hate Atris Club" :xp:

~HOP

Blix
09-21-2008, 11:56 PM
I like Atris' character even though she was Dark Side and expressed a lot of hatred toward the Exile and (about) Revan.

Endorenna
09-22-2008, 01:28 AM
@luckyariot: Oh, yes, DY and myself especially loath her. I was even going to form a social group called the "We Hate Atris Club" :xp:

~HOP

Heck, I'd be your first member! :xp:

mattig89ch
09-22-2008, 08:37 AM
meh, I didn't like her or hate her. she just was part of the story. now if she had helped nihlis with the destruction of telos, then i'd hate her.

Yar-El
09-22-2008, 08:40 AM
@luckyariot: Oh, yes, DY and myself especially loath her. I was even going to form a social group called the "We Hate Atris Club" :xp: ~HOP

Heck, I'd be your first member! :xp: Member number two here. :lol:

Ctrl Alt Del
09-22-2008, 01:31 PM
Call me crazy, but I don't dislike Vrook. I definitely do not like him at all, but I don't think he's a bad guy. He's one of those tough military-style instructers who has everyone of his students having their most enjoyable darkside fantasy being killing him, but when a battle goes to hell, they probably thank him for being hard on them... as corny as that sounds. Even in the game, when the Council resentences the Exile to... exile, the player doesn't take it as hard as when Kavar and Zez-Kai Ell agree to it.

QFT. He is the most sincere of all the masters because he doesn't try to hide his feelings at people or situations he disapproves.

Rev7
09-22-2008, 07:16 PM
the chance on NS...very strange indeed.

@luckyariot: Oh, yes, DY and myself especially loath her. I was even going to form a social group called the "We Hate Atris Club" :xp:
you should

HIGH ON PIE 14
09-22-2008, 07:40 PM
QFT. He is the most sincere of all the masters because he doesn't try to hide his feelings at people or situations he disapproves.

Quite true. I don't like Vrook, since he dislikes me. But as Ctrl Alt Del said, at least he is honest. If you are a dark exile, his fears make a lot of sense...if you are LS they still make aq lot of sense, though I think he let them blind him to the real truth.

@Rev: perhaps I will, now that you mention it...

~HOP

Zerimar Nyliram
09-22-2008, 07:40 PM
I like Vandar, aka "Not-Yoda." He's pretty cool. Not happy how they just casually killed him off in passing conversation regarding the catastrophe on Katar. I didn't really care much about Dorak and Zhar, but Vandar is such a great character that writing him off so easily is just a sin. He needs to be discovered alive in the next installment. He just has to be alive. If he isn't, then that's a pretty terrible waste of a good character. At least let him go out in a blaze of glory.

Kavar is overrated. I can't see the appeal whatsoever. He strikes me as boring and uninteresting; and his voice actor's terrible acting skills certainly don't help much. The guy is incredibly monotonous and conveys no emotions whatsoever. When the Exile is about to kill him when playing the dark side, Kavar just speaks to her in his usual droll physics professor tone. He's just a step up from Zez-Kai-Ell, in my opinion.

The Sith Lords didn't have any good Jedi Masters at all, other than Vrook. As much as I think Vrook is a complete bunghole, I agree with Luckyariot. He's a very good character, believable, and is probably the most realistic out of all the Jedi Masters in both games. Dorak and Zhar are all right; Atris, Vash, Kavar and Zez-Kai-Ell are terrible.

mattig89ch
09-22-2008, 08:33 PM
I never liked vrook. He was honest, and that crochety old man in the corner. But I'd bet good money that he had to master the light saber before any of the other masters because so many of his padawans tried to kill him.

And I was boerd yesterday, so I was thinking. In episodes 2 and 3 (the movies), I could see why anakin fell. If you watched Obi-Wan talk to him, he was constantly putting him down. When he was on the droid planet in ep2 for ex (first introduction of the clone troopers), instead of saying "nice shot anikan" obiwan had to remind anakin that he was the inferior one, so said "nice shot, my yong aprentice". This probobly made Anakin feel like he couldn't have done it w/out Obi-Wan's help. There are numerous other examples of this in the movies. :xp:

TKA-001
09-22-2008, 08:34 PM
What is cool about Vandar? The only difference I see between him and Yoda is that he actually knows the language.

HIGH ON PIE 14
09-22-2008, 10:36 PM
People like Vandar because he is the same species as Yoda. We all know if he were human, he would not get an ounce of attention. I'm fairly nuetral with him to be honest. He does get some cool points for being a Yoda guy...but Yoda is still way better. :D

~HOP

Zerimar Nyliram
09-23-2008, 05:40 AM
I like him because he seems wise, has good lines, a pretty good voice actor, is believable and isn't boring like the rest. It has nothing to do with his species whatsoever.

thundrfang1
09-24-2008, 05:21 PM
Why the heck is Kavar so popular! He backstabs you! He's all nice to you and then he agrees to kill you! And if any of the fangirls comment on this, please don't get mad.
Well I guess he's kind of cool...but definitally not cooler than Vandar!

TKA-001
09-24-2008, 07:53 PM
When does Kavar agree to kill the player?

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
09-26-2008, 04:21 AM
my fave was vandar. he was so nice, and i bet, like yoda hes the most powerful of the lot. (lifespan of hundreds of years)
then it was between masters ell and kavar. ze-kai was nice, and was actually humble like jedi are supposed to be. and kavar was 'da man'.
i cant choose between the two.

worst:
vrook. he was so annoying and crabby.
and of course ATRIS. aaargh!! i just want to give her a slap!
atris=beyaaaaatch! :lol:

oh wow.
is there actually a 'we hate atris' club? if there is where do i join? (i just joined lf and im findin my way round the UI)
if its not there someone should totally make one!

(on a completely different tangent)
i saw the youtube vid of lonna vash and just realised... that voice... thats gotta be kath soucie! (tavion from JA. i hate her too. ugh. so lame)

knight 12167
09-26-2008, 06:36 AM
I think Kavar is best cause he has humour and is good in combat

Arátoeldar
09-26-2008, 09:12 AM
Atris: Geez...issues, much? Crazy, much? Repressed? You freaking bet. About the mildest comment I made was that she seriously needed to get laid.

Dorak: Somewhat dull, not terribly helpful. Just an exposition God.

Kavar: Interesting bloke. Actually doing his job. Hated to have to skewer the dude on my saber.

Vandar: Almost spilled the beans several times, and probably wanted to. I liked that he was charging in, shoulder to shoulder with Dodonna at the Star Forge brawl.

Vash: Woman in the Fridge, sadly. She actually seemed like she had potential.

Vrook: He was an ass. He needed to be an ass. Still, he typified most of the things I dislike about Jedi - hard adherence to dogma and hierarchy, at the expense of Living Force. He was ruled by his fear, both with Revan and with Exile, covering it with anger and hatred he denies to the hilt.

Zez-Kai Ell - Nice enough fellow, but he was a broken coward by the time we see him on Nar Shadaa.

Zhar - I voted for Zhar. It had to have sucked to get the short straw and end up retraining Revan. He seemed a good an honest fellow who believes and practices what he preaches.

Well stated Allronix

What is cool about Vandar? The only difference I see between him and Yoda is that he actually knows the language.

For me it has nothing to do with his species. It has to do the fact that he is the only you see actually battling evil.

Vash comes in a very close second for the way she is portrayed in Coruscant video and fact she tries to battle evil.

TKA-001
09-26-2008, 10:05 AM
For me it has nothing to do with his species. It has to do the fact that he is the only you see actually battling evil.
I've written a list of what everything that Vandar does in both games.

1. Stand in the Jedi Enclave.

2. Stand on the bridge of the Republic flagship at the Battle of Rakata Prime.

3. Stand in front of the Rakatan temple on the surface with the other Jedi.

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
09-29-2008, 03:33 AM
Vandar: He lost any sympathy I might have had for him when he first opened his mouth and didn't speak backwards. And he's a minor character. He stands there in a cutscene, and that's 'bout it.

but thats yoda's thing! did yaddle also speak upside down basic? cant remember.

Endorenna
09-29-2008, 07:27 AM
Yaddle never said anything! ;)

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
09-29-2008, 07:40 AM
not in the movies. but she featured in one of the jedi quest books i think. read it ages ago. she sacrificed herself to save anakin... :anvil:
all the padawans knew her as she was 300-400 years old. (young thing:lol:)
she used to turn a blind eye to their pranks and stick sweets in their robes when they got them back from cleaning. :(

luckyariot
09-29-2008, 11:11 AM
Yeah, I liked Yaddle... She did have Yoda-speak, by the way. :D

But Vandar wasn't really someone you can judge since you really don't see anything of a personality. His personality is a little more evident in the comics, but there he only suceeds in ticking me off when he couldn't find it in himself to believe that the Masters murdered their Padawans and not Zayne. He wouldn't even acknowledge the possibility for months! And he also told Zayne that it may all be his fault if he turned to the darkside and somehow doesn't remember it. Wow. Thanks for that, Master.

I really wish Vash had her role and dialouge back. She seemed a little more open-minded than some of the other masters in cut-content. In fact, looking at it, I'm suprised she didn't join Revan and Malak! Maybe she felt that the opinion of the rest of the Council overrode hers?

TKA-001
09-29-2008, 01:00 PM
He wouldn't even acknowledge the possibility for months!
Is there any particular reason (such as evidence) for him to?

Endorenna
09-29-2008, 03:39 PM
I really wish Vash had her role and dialouge back. She seemed a little more open-minded than some of the other masters in cut-content. In fact, looking at it, I'm suprised she didn't join Revan and Malak! Maybe she felt that the opinion of the rest of the Council overrode hers?

Maybe she decided she needed to hold things together back home--try to keep the Council from exiling all the Jedi who left right off the bat.

TKA-001
09-29-2008, 05:04 PM
They probably would have if any of them except the Exile hadn't quit on their own.

luckyariot
09-29-2008, 05:21 PM
Maybe she decided she needed to hold things together back home--try to keep the Council from exiling all the Jedi who left right off the bat.
I'm actually not sure what you mean. Can you clarify for me?

Is there any particular reason (such as evidence) for him to?
Actually, there was. First of all, the only evidence against Zayne was the accusations of the Masters, who all are very eager to hunt him down. There was little to no evidence that Zayne was powerful enough to kill the Padawans, he didn't seem to have a record of previous signs of an unstable mind, and he contacted Vandar himself to say that he was innocent. Why would he contact the Jedi if he had fallen, did not intend to return, and was taking the risk of being tracked?

Don't get me wrong though. The main reason I was a bit disappointed in Vandar wasn't the fact that he didn't believe Zayne so much as the reason he cited: "How can I even contemplate such a thing? Your Master Lucien is the scion of an important family—both in the Republic and in the Jedi Order." :(...Is that the best reason he can come up with for not considering another possibility? It just seems... lacking. Oh, and Vrook, strangely enough, seemed rather neutral toward's Zayne's case. He even called out the Taris Masters on failing to protect their Padawans and how the Masters themselves didn't seem entirely trustworthy! A bit of a shock given that he usually is against the main character... :D

Endorenna
09-29-2008, 05:46 PM
I'm actually not sure what you mean. Can you clarify for me?

I meant that Vash was probably staying with the Council to keep them from saying, "Okay, all the Jedi that have followed Revan to fight the Mandalorians are exiled! Period!" before the stupid war was done and Revan had turned to the Dark Side.

TKA-001
09-29-2008, 07:12 PM
the accusations of the Masters, who all are very eager to hunt him down.
Is there any reason to disbelieve them? Wouldn't them being eager to hunt him down be understandable if he was responsible?

There was little to no evidence that Zayne was powerful enough to kill the Padawans
So what? They're just Padawans. If he gets the drop on them, it wouldn't be that difficult.

he didn't seem to have a record of previous signs of an unstable mind
Granted, but that's still not evidence toward a conclusion; merely a lack of evidence toward any conclusion.

he contacted Vandar himself to say that he was innocent.
He could very easily be lying, as far as he knew.

Why would he contact the Jedi if he had fallen, did not intend to return, and was taking the risk of being tracked?
Granted, that should be make the accusing Masters' story look a little fishy, but still, how is Vandar supposed to know what he's up to?

luckyariot
09-30-2008, 09:49 AM
So what? They're just Padawans. If he gets the drop on them, it wouldn't be that difficult.
I would agree with you except for the fact that the Padawans were killed early because they got suspicious at the idea that Zayne was to knighted with them that day. The Masters were unable to explain themselves, and then started the slaughter early enough for Zayne to come in and witness the direct aftermath. It makes the point that Zayne wasn't very good (and everyone, including Zayne, pretty much agreed). Apparently, Zayne and his Master did not seem to expect for him to become a full Jedi.

In fact, most of the times he escaped the Masters was due more to his friend's interferance and dumb luck (or the will of the Force :xp:) than to any skill on his part. This is also acknowledged in the comics, though he does start to improve after a while.

Is there any reason to disbelieve them? Wouldn't them being eager to hunt him down be understandable if he was responsible?
I was under the impression that the Council (and most Masters) generally refrained from sending a Jedi on a mission that they had any feelings on the matter that might make them bias. In the later years anyway, Obi-Wan is nervous about going on a mission with Anakin to face a pirate slaver, who stole some of Anakin's friends and their family from Tatooine while he lived there. The Council eventually let him go anyway, but told Obi-Wan to keep an eye on him.

If the Masters are asking to go after the one that may have killed their Padawans, isn't that at least a sign of feelings that may lean towards (if Zayne was guilty) at least revenge? It just seems to take a long time before Vandar really seems to have any doubts at all about the case.

I meant that Vash was probably staying with the Council to keep them from saying, "Okay, all the Jedi that have followed Revan to fight the Mandalorians are exiled! Period!" before the stupid war was done and Revan had turned to the Dark Side.
This made me start thinking... when exactly did the Exile become 'the exile'? The lines of dialouge between the Masters refer to the problem of Revan and "being vulnerable on two fronts", yet in K1, Revan and Malak's return as Sith Lords is dsecribed as somewhat of a suprise. So was this when the Jedi Civil War began? Than why was there a year between the Mandalorian War and the JCW? Where was the Exile during that time if this is the case? :confused: Help.

Ultimate Vader
09-30-2008, 10:46 AM
Best to Worst

1. I think Kavar is the best. He's cool, handsome if compared to zez-kai ell and vrook. He also has a blue shoto and blue lightsaber when I fight him in KOTOR 2. And I think he's the strongest in Jedi High Council.
2. "Dorak because never did anything to stop you and he is interesting". I agree with greggomonkey in this one.
3. Vash, although she doesn't have a very orthodox view in Jedi code, she foolishly falls into Sion's trap. All of you know what happens when someone is putted on a match with Darth Sion. Sion 10/10. Poor Vash.
4. Zez-Kai Ell, only because he admit his mistake and has double-bladed purple lightsaber. He also gives some fight in KOTOR 2.
5. Zhar : "Zhar: "They were foolish to ignore the Council." That signifies that he believes he and the Council are perfect. He's nowhere near Vrook or Atris, but that one quote makes all the difference between a neutral member and a hopeless one". I agree with Darth_Yuthura in this one.
6. Vandar: "Nice enough and friendly, but was on the side of arrogance. I couldn't tell enough of him to make a judgment, so he's neutral". Again I agree with Darth_Yuthura in this one. But I think neutral is a coward and foolish way, so I put Vandar in number 6
7. Atris : Stupid woman who thinks can defeat nihilus and sion (how can she do that?). I don't put her the last one because he's quite attractive for me :D
8. Vrook : I think he is the most suck from all of them. I hate his arrogant but lame and foolish style of speaking. No offense for his voice talent :). He always hates the Exile's way and I think he's the worst dueler in jedi high council ( judging from KOTOR 2, I kill him with OHKO, very pathetic).

The main point is, Jedi High Council in Mandalorian War and Jedi Civil War is lame, pathetic, fool, stupid, because they don't act like Revan, Jedi Exile, and Revan's followers do. They don't protect the Republic when the Republic need them. That's why I hate Jedi 's way of life in Mandalorian War and Jedi Civil War. They are weak Jedi who don't know how to protect civilization. They more like sage in Avatar the Legend of Aang than Jedi. They don't want to attach their life in war and protecting civilization. Revan is better than them. Jedi Exile is better than them. Even Anakin (who turns to a crazy evil force-wielding cyborg) and Sidious wants peace and order in the galaxy, although with and iron grip, is better than them. It is no matter, the main point is to maintain order in the galaxy. And none of the Jedi High Council in Mandalorian War and Jedi Civil War is brave enough to do that. Hail Revan! Hail Vader! Hail Sidious! Everybody could say amen to that.:)

luckyariot
10-01-2008, 06:35 AM
He's cool, handsome if compared to zez-kai ell and vrook.He also has a blue shoto and blue lightsaber when I fight him in KOTOR 2. And I think he's the strongest in Jedi High Council.
(shrug) I never found him handsome, and his voice wasn't great either, but the shoto and regular lightsaber style is awesome. :) My problem with Kavar is how he seems to be on your side and an ally but betrays you immediately. :confused: Who needs enemies with friends like these? I don't hate him or anything, but its hard to call someone like that your favorite if you think about it that way.

Vash, although she doesn't have a very orthodox view in Jedi code, she foolishly falls into Sion's trap.
True, but no one knew Sion or Nihilus' powers (or even existance). All they knew was that there was a new, powerful Sith threat. How can you blame Vash for getting caught? Or were you expecting her to guess that there would be legions of assasins hunting through the force, and a walking corpse. With a lightsaber.

Also, Vash was not originally supposed to be dead like that when you find her. The creators had to cut M4-78 and much of Korriban, so they ended up Stuffing Her in the Fridge. :¬: Stupid time restraints...

Zhar : "Zhar: "They were foolish to ignore the Council." That signifies that he believes he and the Council are perfect. He's nowhere near Vrook or Atris, but that one quote makes all the difference between a neutral member and a hopeless one". I agree with Darth_Yuthura in this one.
Hmmm.... I don't think he thought the Council was perfect (that's Atris's bit); I think he was just a conventional Jedi Master saying the more respectable version of: "I told 'ya so, I told 'ya so!" :xp: And, from the Jedi's point of view, it was foolish. All of the Revanchists either died, turned to the dark-side, were forcibly turned to the dark-side, or were exiled. Incidentaly, it didn't seem like Vrook thought the Council was perfect either. He just wanted the Jedi to listen to it, so some measure of order could be maintained. At least, my interpretation (especially in the comics).

I don't put her the last one because he's quite attractive for me
Oh no! Echani-lover! :lol:

The main point is, Jedi High Council in Mandalorian War and Jedi Civil War is lame, pathetic, fool, stupid, because they don't act like Revan, Jedi Exile, and Revan's followers do
Wow, I called out a player-bias before TKA-001? :confused: This is wierd. Anyway, just because they had a different opinion from the Revanchists didn't make them stupid and lame (they did make a foolish decision, but that doesn't make them fools). Consider the circumstances of the last war, the issue with Zayne and the Jedi Covenant stirring up trouble, and Master Vandar apparently having a vision that going to war would cause great destruction to the Republic, and they don't seem like complete morons, but rather misguided.

Hail Revan! Hail Vader! Hail Sidious! Everybody could say amen to that.
Revan brutally crippled the Mandalorian way of life, manipulated the Exile and Bao-Dur into commiting mass genocide, became a Dark Lord of the Sith, slaughtered millions, reactivated the Star Forge, set up the assasins who would hunt down most of the Jedi of the Civil War and torture them, send his own troops (if force-sensitive) to be broken, and was planning to take over the Republic, establish an Empire, and fight off the True Sith, likely keeping his power at that point due to the nature of the dark-side! Oh, and Malak's jaw (think about how and why you would cut someone's jaw off and keep them alive). Sidious manipulated everyone to misery, madness, and/or death (some combination of the three), authorized and encouraged the use of genocide for show, used racism and sexism to divide the galaxy further, and was a selfish bastard who loved putting up giant statues of himself. He also kept concubines. And you want us to hail them.

HOW THE HELL DO YOU EXPECT US TO BELIEVE THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE BETTER THAN THE COUNCIL!?! THE COUNCIL ISN'T EVIL!

TKA-001
10-01-2008, 09:26 AM
Hail Revan!
You do realize that saying "hail Revan" is the Star Wars equivalent of saying "hail Hitler", "hail Stalin", et cetera since Revan is basically the Star Wars equivalent of any of them, right? Need I go on?

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
10-02-2008, 02:23 AM
HOW THE HELL DO YOU EXPECT US TO BELIEVE THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE BETTER THAN THE COUNCIL!?! THE COUNCIL ISN'T EVIL!
i second that! :eyepop:
and ultimate_vader, you *do* realize that saying 'hail ...' is saying "worship them!"

Corinthian
10-02-2008, 02:30 AM
*Rolls eyes* Did you people leave your sense of sarcasm on the dresser?

TKA-001
10-02-2008, 10:23 AM
He also kept concubines.
Wait a minute, since when?

Endorenna
10-02-2008, 12:47 PM
^
Same question...

luckyariot
10-02-2008, 02:41 PM
Wait a minute, since when?
Apparently the reason Mara Jade, Shira Brie, and some of the other female Hands were able to slip in and out of the Imperial Palace without much notice despite the sexism prevelant... because they were assumed to be more concubines for the higher-ups... (shudder). I cannot, nor will I ever, be able to unlearn that. Ugh.

*Rolls eyes* Did you people leave your sense of sarcasm on the dresser?
Please be more obvious about it next time for those of us less intelliegent than you, so we do not have to rant for nothing :D.

Endorenna
10-02-2008, 05:27 PM
What book is that from?

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
10-03-2008, 01:51 AM
ive never heard palpy had concubines...
but it seems completely plausible to me.
of course he'd have to pay them hugely... cause theres no way in all of existence that anyone's going get with old pruney 'because he's cute'...
(excpept maybe a monkey lizard)
the punk must be mind-tricking them. the pig. :mad:

Zerimar Nyliram
10-03-2008, 03:57 PM
Well, he was the freaking dictator of the galaxy. You just don't say no to someone like that and expect to walk away with your head still attached to your shoulders.

DarthYuugi
12-30-2008, 12:05 PM
My list

Master Vash:
Not nasty shes open minded and is probably the most responsibile member on the jedi council

Master Vandar
Again never nasty takes in to considiration other peoples thoughts

Master Kavar
Not open minded but at least he does something to help and has some respect for the Exile

Master Zez
Is willing to admit they were quite possibly maybe on some days when its raining actually might consider hes wrong :D

Master Vrook
Hated old man who only considers power in to evreything
In K2 When i saw he was in the holo records i fought he would be a sith when we find him

Master Atris
Arragont and a idiot whos manuplitive as kreia
Do i have to explain lol ?

Master Dorak
Not much a apperance so hes neutral

Master zhar
He did think the council was right so that puts him in the arrogont part of the council

luckyariot
01-06-2009, 05:59 AM
Master zhar
He did think the council was right so that puts him in the arrogont part of the council
Let me reiterate: "just because they had a different opinion from the Revanchists didn't make them stupid and lame (they did make a foolish decision, but that doesn't make them fools). Consider the circumstances of the last war, the issue with Zayne and the Jedi Covenant stirring up trouble, and Master Vandar apparently having a vision that going to war would cause great destruction to the Republic, and they don't seem like complete morons, but rather misguided."

From the Council's point of view, fighting in the Mandalorian Wars resulting in all Jedi involved to die (ex: Dxun and Malachor V), become evil (Revan's Sith Empire), or loose faith in everything and drop off the face of the galaxy (the Jedi Exile). Because none of the Revanchists ever returned to the Jedi for anything more than a trial and the Jedi Order had apparently become so distant from the ordinary citizens of the Republic, they didn't have all the pieces of the story to conclude that it was a bad decision.

In any case, to publically declare their decision a bad one would be to give credit to the Revanchists, who are now the enemy. In a war, you will almost never see a side give credit to the enemy, sometimes not even decades after the battles, especially because of the possible impact on morale and faith in the Coucil's leadership.

Though... looking back... I don't see any good solution to that scenario at all.

Darth_Yuthura
01-06-2009, 09:17 AM
One good solution: The Council makes a proper decision based on the situation that they knew of... not some vision that may or may not have had any validity. They should have gotten the Jedi involved with the Mandalorian War, thereby ensuring that Revan never had a standard under which to gather power or support. It was because the Council refused to act that Revan received support.

Even if they believed it was wrong, they should have known that it didn't really matter what the Council thought if no one believed them. They were misguided because they weren't willing to take the responsibilities of leadership. Vrook and Atris seemed to enjoy having the power and shifting responsibility to others especially.

Astor
01-06-2009, 01:37 PM
One good solution: The Council makes a proper decision based on the situation that they knew of... not some vision that may or may not have had any validity. They should have gotten the Jedi involved with the Mandalorian War, thereby ensuring that Revan never had a standard under which to gather power or support.

It's hardly their fault that Revan disobeyed them, and then became a Sith Lord. They didn't want to repeat the mistakes of the past, and, importantly, the Order was still trying to rebuild after the last time a Jedi Knight led a group of his peers to the Dark Side.

TKA-001
01-06-2009, 02:22 PM
One thing this discussion brings to mind is the fact that the Jedi Civil War was, by definition, not a Jedi civil war at all. My dictionary defines a civil war as "a war between political factions or regions within the same country". I've also heard it described as a war between two or more factions for control of a government. The Jedi Civil War was not a war between two factions within the same "country" (by that definition, anyway), or for control of a "government" (which in this context would refer to the Jedi Order itself). The closest Revan's movement came to a "civil war" was when he and his renegades left to assist the Republic military. Even then, however, there was no war for control of the Order. It was simply Revan and his followers leaving.

One might say that the Jedi Crusaders (I refuse to call them "the Revanchists") caused a schism in the Jedi Order, but as far as I know it has yet to be verified as to approximately how many Jedi followed Revan. It can be considered safe to say that few of Revan's followers were Jedi Knights, and that even fewer were Masters (we have only one example of each so far. Aside from that, Jedi apprentices are by default younger than the more experienced Jedi and would be easily swayed). As for the Crusaders' actual numbers, it could be anything from as few as several hundred or as many as one or two thousand, depending on the number of low-ranking Jedi the Order had, as well as its size in general.

The Jedi Civil War itself did not start until years later, of course, and the conflict itself was more about the Republic and the Sith Empire than the Jedi. I know that several people in KOTOR II try to pass off the name of the conflict to civilians viewing the Jedi and Sith as largely the same, but I don't buy any of that, because anyone who can't see the difference between Revan's Crusaders/Sith and the actual Jedi Order has to be either brain-dead or ridiculously ignorant.

luckyariot
01-08-2009, 05:47 PM
I know that several people in KOTOR II try to pass off the name of the conflict to civilians viewing the Jedi and Sith as largely the same, but I don't buy any of that, because anyone who can't see the difference between Revan's Crusaders/Sith and the actual Jedi Order has to be either brain-dead or ridiculously ignorant.
I have to disagree with you there. The ones who dubbed the war "the Jedi Civil War" was the rest of the galaxy. The game was trying to make the point that, from an outside point of view, the Jedi and the Sith didn't seem all that different. And, think about it; how could you tell if you didn't know their underlying philosophies and traditions but saw both of them using strange powers to tear the galaxy apart?

Is this an intelligent categorization of the war? No, but I doubt enough of the people of that time period felt highly of the Jedi at this point anyway, so this was also a way to blame the Order and all the Jedi for all their suffering.

TKA-001
01-08-2009, 05:57 PM
how could you tell if you didn't know their underlying philosophies and traditions but saw both of them using strange powers to tear the galaxy apart?
What about the fact that the Sith were killing billions of people and the Jedi weren't?

I understand the logic you cite, but I don't see how it holds much water.

Darth_Yuthura
01-08-2009, 07:54 PM
Let's not forget where all this started and could have been averted...

The Jedi Civil War was the result of Revan for joining in the Mandalorian Wars. Revan gained most/all his support from going to fight the Mandalorians and the Council refused to get involved. They had ABSOLUTELY no reason to assume they knew better than the rest of the Order, but they pushed the Order to ignore their sense and stressed their authority.

The Council's refusal to get involved naturally would have gone against common sense and would likely have caused a Jedi like Revan to go rogue. Even if Revan were the Evil Dark Lord he was painted in the first game, it wouldn't have mattered if he was not allowed the means to gain support if the Council had taken action in the first place. Because they couldn't justify their side of the argument, more Jedi believed in Revan than they did the Council.

TKA-001
01-08-2009, 09:44 PM
Let's not forget where all this started and could have been averted...

The Jedi Civil War was the result of Revan for joining in the Mandalorian Wars.
Blatant lie #1. The Jedi Civil War was the result of Darth Revan corrupting his Jedi followers and the military personnel under his command to the dark side, followed by an unprovoked attack on the Republic shipyards of Foerost (which was the first battle of the war). Revan began the aforementioned corruption process before the Mandalorian Wars ended.

Revan gained most/all his support from going to fight the Mandalorians and the Council refused to get involved.
Ignoratio elenchi (otherwise known as an irrelevant conclusion). What is that supposed to prove? Choosing to join the Republic Military was the only thing he could gain any support from doing at all. It was a yes/no situation.

They had ABSOLUTELY no reason to assume they knew better than the rest of the Order, but they pushed the Order to ignore their sense and stressed their authority.
False. The Jedi Council was unwilling to immediately join the war because the Order was still wounded from the Great Sith War with Exar Kun, and they had reason to fear that joining another armed conflict would devastate the Order (which, unsurprisingly, is what resulted). I need not bother to mention that the Council was evaluating the Mandalorian threat (rather than completely ignoring them as you like to insinuate) and also suspected that they were not the real galactic threat.

If one is to refuse to believe either of the Council's official reasons, one also has to believe that more than half of the Jedi Order is composed of people who are either mentally retarded or like to collectively be a bunch of *******s for no reason whatsoever (and by extension, one must believe that the writers of the KOTOR series were idiots as well because KOTOR would be as stupid as hell if that was the actual plot of the games).

I also notice how you consistently use the words "the Order" and "the rest of the Order" when talking about the supposed "schism" which Revan caused. You are clearly trying to imply that the Council and the Jedi loyalists were far outnumbered by the Crusaders, of which there is no evidence whatsoever.

The Council's refusal to get involved naturally would have gone against common sense and would likely have caused a Jedi like Revan to go rogue.
You seem to be treating the event of a Jedi leading a faction of the Order to the Mandalorian Wars as having been an inevitability, which is merely unsupported wishful thinking on your part.

Even if Revan were the Evil Dark Lord he was painted in the first game
Blatant lie #2. Darth Revan was the evil Dark Lord he was painted as in the first game. If Revan wasn't evil, then neither was Palpatine.

Because they couldn't justify their side of the argument
See the third, fourth, and fifth paragraphs of my post.

more Jedi believed in Revan than they did the Council.
Blatant lie #3: More passing off your own fanon/wishful thinking as fact. Nowhere in either KOTOR games is there evidence that the number of Jedi Crusaders/Crusader sympathizers even so much as equaled (let alone outnumbered) the loyalists.

Astor
01-09-2009, 06:02 AM
The Jedi Civil War was the result of Revan for joining in the Mandalorian Wars. Revan gained most/all his support from going to fight the Mandalorians and the Council refused to get involved.

Myself and TKA have already adressed the point about the Council not getting involved. But, to further reinforce it -

Only thirty years earlier, the fallen Knights Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma had successfully led a host of Jedi to the dark side and thence to war with the Jedi Order. The resulting struggle with the Sith took a very heavy toll on the Order and it had yet to fully recover. In the face of a looming Mandalorian threat, the Jedi Masters grew cautious lest they repeat the mistakes of the past; They were wary of the dark side and they sensed that an unknown hand was at work behind the new war.

I know it's from wookieepedia, but it phrases the situation better than I can.

They had ABSOLUTELY no reason to assume they knew better than the rest of the Order, but they pushed the Order to ignore their sense and stressed their authority.

I feel compelled to remind you that Revan had ASBOLUTELY (as you put it) no reason to assume that he knew better than anyone else either.

The Council's refusal to get involved naturally would have gone against common sense

How, exactly? They had their reasons for not getting involved - others disagreeing with them doesn't mean they aren't using common sense.

Because they couldn't justify their side of the argument, more Jedi believed in Revan than they did the Council.

"Not destroying what's left of the Order in another bloody war" seems like justification enough.

Cattpride
01-16-2009, 10:25 PM
Atris=Hypocrite. Fail.
Vandar=Yoda's species. Win! :)

Lord of Hunger
02-18-2009, 11:58 PM
My Best to Worst:

1) Zez-Kia Ell: Only one to take responsibility for anything and to ponder the politically incorrect idea that the Jedi aren't all that great.
2) Kavar: Believed that the Jedi were right when they were obviously wrong, but was moderate about his convictions and attempted to do what was right.
3) Vash: Rebuked Atris (anyone who rebukes Atris is a decent person in my book :D) and since she has so much cut content we don't know enough to really judge you.
4) Zhar: Trusting and friendly, but like most Jedi, wrong about Revan and Malak.
5) Dorak: Same as Zhar.
6) Vandar: Useless.
7) Vrook: Hypocrite. His ideology is against hatred and yet he has an intense hatred of any "Dark Siders". At least he's though to kill.
8) Atris: Traitor. She sells out everyone, including herself, to a bunch of Sith Holocrons. If I didn't play LS all the time I'd finish her off or leave her to the Holocrons.

Bee Hoon
03-03-2009, 01:16 PM
Wow, this thread is clearly srs bsns. I'm sorry for flogging a dead horse, but heck. It's very late here, so excuse any incoherence.

Atris is a very well-written character. On first glance, she's nothing more than an arrogant, selfish hag who is just there to annoy the Exile. But the important thing to remember about her is that she genuinely believed that she was doing the right thing. She's the perfect example of the road to hell being paved with good intentions. She leaked word of the conclave at Katarr, hoping that the Sith would show their hand, but obviously that backfired.

During the events of TSL, she thought herself to be the last of the Jedi (which was not far from the truth), and she devoted herself to a single cause: ensuring that the Jedi survived. She had fallen long before that, or to be more precise, begun her slow descent. It wasn't one impetuous act that damned her. If not for Kreia opening her eyes to her own darkness, Atris probably would have carried on in the same vein.

So while I like Kavar best for being the most reasonable Council member, Atris is by far the most complex.

Adavardes
03-03-2009, 01:39 PM
So while I like Kavar best for being the most reasonable Council member, Atris is by far the most complex.

Indeed, the most complex, if not a bit predictable. Actually, very predictable.

My vote goes for Zez-Kai Ell. His intellect and perceptiveness lead him to the conclusion that the Jedi way, or the Jedi methodology, most likely lead to the creation of the Sith, and that the masters were singularly responsible for the corruption of their pupils simply because they taught something that was too strict. The Jedi way may have helped force users conquer darker impulses, but it also put too much strain on natural human emotions that are not necessarily catalysts for evil, choosing to neglect them instead of face and conquer them.

This lead to their complete repudiation of any paths to salvation that may have required risks or sacrifices to the dark side, such as involvement in the Mandalorian Wars, and the subsequent war caused by Revan to ultimately strengthen the Republic against a much more dangerous threat. Because they refused to try other methods, electing to remain strict and ignorant other options, they perished, and their students turned from them. Zez-Kai Ell was possibly the first Master to see this, and the resulting internal conflict made for fantastic story.

Endorenna
03-03-2009, 03:17 PM
Atris is a very well-written character. On first glance, she's nothing more than an arrogant, selfish hag who is just there to annoy the Exile. But the important thing to remember about her is that she genuinely believed that she was doing the right thing. She's the perfect example of the road to hell being paved with good intentions. She leaked word of the conclave at Katarr, hoping that the Sith would show their hand, but obviously that backfired.

Quite true. She's a very complex character. Just makes me hate her all the more. :lol:

TKA-001
03-03-2009, 03:32 PM
Atris is one of the examples I refer to when I say that whether the player character would like a character has no bearing on the quality of said character.

Adavardes
03-04-2009, 11:29 AM
But, like I said, my qualms with her are not whether or not she's complex or whether or not I like her. It's that she's bland and predictable. I mean, she has tons of depth, but the depth is something we've seen many times before, righteous anger, self-importance, barely-contained love for someone who is forbidden. She's not simple in character structure, but the structure itself is plain, and you can see exactly where it's going. She's just not an emotionally moving character, she doesn't surprise me or stimulate me.

Kjřlen
03-04-2009, 06:09 PM
I liked Zhar because he taught you (Revan) much on your return to Dantooine and in my opinion, by Twi'lek male standards, he wasn't a total slimeball. I guess I'm prejudiced against male Twi'leks that way, but Zhar was probably one of the kindest and more mild of the Dantooine Council members.

Jeff
03-06-2009, 02:45 AM
I think Kavar is a pretty cool guy, eh does debates and doesn't afraid of anything. But really, I probably liked Kavar the best just because he seemed the most helpful to you and wasn't always condescending.

Darth Avlectus
03-12-2009, 03:43 AM
I see myself personally as a weaponsmanster since I am already a swordsman in real life. However, on a personality level...I am like master Vrook only a bit more creative and at least I try to be 'kind of' likable. I'd imagine I would probably agree with him 1/4 the time, 1/2 of the time indifferent, and the last 1/4 I'd want to rip his ****ing head off and **** down his neck. I'd have my own ideas.

I guess I'd jive with his mentality of competence. Strong and capable. His high standards is something everyone ought to strive for. Even if we don't see eye to eye.

TheJedi76
03-12-2009, 02:59 PM
Okay, pink Twi'leks!

That's one reason that I chose him, the other, I don't entirely know why.

Zhar is sweet.:xp:

Darth_Yuthura
03-12-2009, 08:38 PM
I guess I'm surprised that there are so many who voted for the 'faceless' masters as I come to view them. Zhar, Vandar, Vash, and Dorak are all really lacking in character or personality to a great extent. Although the restored content would have given you a chance to interact with Vash, so I see why she got votes. Vandar just reminds people of Yoda, I think. Zhar and Dorak are alright, but barely any personality at all.

Atris/Vrook condescending/arrogant and evil/cruel

Kavar/ZKE/Vash these are the only Masters who really didn't become too overconfident to think they were above making mistakes. That's why they were the only likable Masters in the game.

TKA-001
03-12-2009, 09:15 PM
I keep forgetting where Vrook does anything cruel to anyone, or where Atris does anything evil before the events of KotOR 2.

TheJedi76
03-12-2009, 09:22 PM
I keep forgetting where Vrook does anything cruel to anyone,


Vrook's just a complete dick. :xp:

Darth_Yuthura
03-12-2009, 11:32 PM
I keep forgetting where Vrook does anything cruel to anyone, or where Atris does anything evil before the events of KotOR 2.

Let's see, Vrook wanted nothing more than to punish the Exile not once, but twice condemning her, despite doing what the Council was too afraid to do. He went against his subordinates for doing what they thought was right instead of realizing that he and the Council were the fuel instigating Revan's rise to power. After refusing to acknowledge his fault, he yet again kept shifting blame away from himself and the Council. He doesn't follow the Jedi code... always such an angry... so biassed... so prejudicial... need I go on?

Atris: Katarr? Mass murderer before KOTOR II. Only thing that could have redeemed her would have been to go to Katarr and die with the others.

TKA-001
03-13-2009, 10:06 AM
Let's see, Vrook wanted nothing more than to punish the Exile not once, but twice condemning her, despite doing what the Council was too afraid to do.
More irrelevant filler about how brave the Exile was compared to the evil meany Jedi Council, and how unfair Vrook was to every character that you like, ignoring any reasons he had for his behavior other than your made-up ones about fear and pettiness and "unjustified" condemnation. You are attempting to outright demonize this character, and you bend the facts in order to do so.

He went against his subordinates for doing what they thought was right instead of realizing that he and the Council were the fuel instigating Revan's rise to power.
How many times do we need to go over this? Revan chose to lead the Crusaders in the war, Revan chose to turn them to the dark side, and Revan chose to start the Jedi Civil War. Vrook, and for that matter, everyone else on the Council as well, were just another element of the situation; They didn't control Revan's actions or "force his hand". I suppose you think the Destruction of Malachor V was the Council's fault as well, because they "left Revan no choice".

After refusing to acknowledge his fault, he yet again kept shifting blame away from himself and the Council.
What is so contemptible about a person believing that they're right and not thinking that they're to blame? Everybody does that (this goes without saying, but "everybody" includes the great and noble Sir Revan and Sir Exile). Nobody does something willingly if they don't think that they're right. Vrook doesn't acknowledge any fault because he doesn't believe he was wrong (nor was he, because his suspicions of Revan and the Exile were both justified in all cases). Why are some characters immune to the corruption brought on by thinking that they're right, but Vrook isn't?

He doesn't follow the Jedi code... always such an angry... so biassed... so prejudicial... need I go on?
No, you don't need to go on, because you somehow managed to write an entire paragraph without actually listing a single cruel or immoral thing that Vrook does (I've read your fan fiction. Are you sure you're looking at the game, instead of that?). I can only assume that the reason for this is that to you, staying true to one's beliefs and standing up for what one believes is right regardless of the opposition (a virtue that you ironically apply so thickly with praise to Revan and the Exile) translates to "anger, bias, prejudice, and hypocrisy," as long as the character in question disagrees with Revan and the Exile, of course, because they are never wrong.

Atris: Katarr? Mass murderer before KOTOR II. Only thing that could have redeemed her would have been to go to Katarr and die with the others.
Atris called the meeting in order to draw Nihilus to Katarr, so that the Jedi could kill him, not the other way around. While it is true that making this move without telling anyone and without knowing more about Nihilus was reckless and dangerous (as the result proved), Atris was not personally responsible for the destruction of Katarr any more than the other Jedi (Vandar, Zhar, etcetera) at the planet were. Despite the flaws of the plan, her intentions did not in any way involve "mass murder", as you spitefully put it, and she neither gave the order, nor pulled the trigger (figuratively or literally).

Ooh, here's an interesting comparison. Atris arranged for the meeting on Katarr because she thought that the risks were justified because it was the only known way to stop a horrendously evil, unknown threat and the other Jedi wouldn't approve of her methods... Exactly like Kreia's justification for every evil thing Revan does. I wonder what makes the two different, other than one of them happening to be the player character.

Darth InSidious
03-13-2009, 02:57 PM
Vrook's awesome.

All the complaints about him boil down to "BAWWWWW he didn't stroke my ego ergo he suxxxx!!!!!!!" They can't even be called criticisms.

He's the only one to tell it like it is.

Adavardes
03-15-2009, 12:44 AM
Vrook's awesome.

All the complaints about him boil down to "BAWWWWW he didn't stroke my ego ergo he suxxxx!!!!!!!" They can't even be called criticisms.

He's the only one to tell it like it is.

You mean his sanctimonious, arrogant, narrow-minded perspective that just seems like he's "telling it like it is" because he's being an ******* about it, which easily fools people who think wordy ******* = infallible prophet.

The practice of the Jedi code had always been too restrictive, which is why so many Jedi fell to the dark side. But he could never see that, in fact, he refused to see that. That not only makes him ignorant of his own faults, but completely incompetent when it comes to understanding anything about the subtleties of the Force. To assume that he's somehow awesome for standing firm on what he believes in implies that the Jedi way is somehow the perfect philosophy for Force Users. It isn't, and was almost an anti-thesis to such attitudes, and that was made painfully clear in K2.

TKA-001
03-15-2009, 10:31 AM
The practice of the Jedi code had always been too restrictive, which is why so many Jedi fell to the dark side. But he could never see that, in fact, he refused to see that.
The first rule of a Jedi critic is when you can't actually find anything to criticize, just pick "the Jedi code" and talk about it like it's a multi-thousand page-long book of rules, and hope that nobody will notice that the Jedi code is just a five-line-long set of guidelines (or that "the Jedi code" or whatever you want to call it/them doesn't have jack to do with the discussion).

You mean his sanctimonious, arrogant, narrow-minded perspective that just seems like he's "telling it like it is" because he's being an ******* about it, which easily fools people who think wordy ******* = infallible prophet.
Irrelevant trash talk, which can't even be called criticism.

That not only makes him ignorant of his own faults, but completely incompetent when it comes to understanding anything about the subtleties of the Force. To assume that he's somehow awesome for standing firm on what he believes in implies that the Jedi way is somehow the perfect philosophy for Force Users. It isn't, and was almost an anti-thesis to such attitudes, and that was made painfully clear in K2.
Strange how your rule above doesn't apply here. This paragraph was very wordy and had no substance or point (since it didn't cite a single example from anywhere of Vrook's faults other than you not liking him), but was clearly meant to be taken as correct.

Adavardes
03-15-2009, 10:56 AM
The first rule of a Jedi critic is when you can't actually find anything to criticize, just pick "the Jedi code" and talk about it like it's a multi-thousand page-long book of rules, and hope that nobody will notice that the Jedi code is just a five-line-long set of guidelines (or that "the Jedi code" doesn't have jack to do with the discussion).

Actually, I said that the way the Jedi carried out the code was the main fault to be found with the Jedi Order. They were too strict, to narrow-minded, too dismissive. They held high standards, but there's a limit between setting high standards and expecting sentient emotion to just disappear. Eventually, someone's going to fall in love, and the love isn't really the problem, it's the loss of love that leads to darker emotions, but they never adapted or grew to either conquer this issue, or to accept it and work with it to make sure Jedi remained Jedi, and didn't fall to the dark side. They just let them fall and ignored the problem. They tried to make natural feelings go away, and create an unnaturally perfect warrior. It can't be done, sentients thrive off of imperfection, but the Jedi Order refused to see that, and instead of applying the code to hone and diminish the presence of powerful emotions, they attempted to either annihilate them from their pupils completely, or otherwise ignored them and cast them out as punishment. And this has everything to do with the discussion, as Vrook was a very by-the-book, follow the Code sort of Jedi, who condemned emotion to the dark side this very same way.

Irrelevant trash talk, which can't even be called criticism.

Actually, it's pretty much indicative of Vrook's attitude, and you dismiss it because, ironically enough, you set Vrook on a pedestal, and anyone else who criticises him is just "demonising the character". Vrook is sanctimonious, impulsive, chastising when it's unnecessary, overly critical, and close-minded to the thought of problems within his Order. He was the perfect example of why the Jedi Order had fallen apart and died.

When the Sith were at his doorstep a second time when the Exile came to him, what did he say he would do? What he had done the first time, though he knew what had happened because of it. Wait, and play the role of pacifist, even though his help is needed, so he can once again condemn others for "rushing into battle". Seems to me like he just expected problems to go away. When you speak with Kavar, he says that he was looking for you on Onderon, but that Vrook hadn't wanted to place any value on what you could teach them. When you face them a final time, Vrook's the one that condemns you to the final punishment of being cut off from the Force, instead of learning from you. Dismissive, anyone?

Strange how your rule above doesn't apply here. This paragraph was very wordy and had no substance or point (since it didn't cite a single example from anywhere), but was clearly meant to be taken as correct.

Again, dismissing the argument. And citing sources really seems to be an empty excuse to ignore my argument.

TKA-001
03-15-2009, 12:04 PM
Vrook was a very by-the-book, follow the Code sort of Jedi, who condemned emotion to the dark side this very same way.
When/where did he say or do that?

Actually, it's pretty much indicative of Vrook's attitude, and you dismiss it because, ironically enough, you set Vrook on a pedestal, and anyone else who criticises him is just "demonising the character".
Saying that I put Vrook on a pedestal is a strawman argument. Where and how did I make any such implications? Where do I praise him to that level? Vrook is a standard and unremarkable Jedi, only notable because the Revan/Exile fanbase criticizes him more than the characters in the same series who are responsible for mass murder and/or genocide.

I never accused you of demonizing Vrook. I accused Yuthura, because unlike with your post (which actually draws from the topic material somewhat), hers/his was based on outright lies, as usual.

Vrook is sanctimonious, impulsive, chastising when it's unnecessary, overly critical, and
All but the second adjectives of this quotation are examples of the Style over Substance fallacy. Essentially, what you're saying is that the manner in which Vrook talks somehow affects the truth of what he says and believes. Also, what things does Vrook do that are impulsive?

When the Sith were at his doorstep a second time when the Exile came to him, what did he say he would do? What he had done the first time, though he knew what had happened because of it. Wait, and play the role of pacifist, even though his help is needed, so he can once again condemn others for "rushing into battle". Seems to me like he just expected problems to go away.
When the Exile talks to the three Jedi Masters on Dantooine, Vrook says this:

We have been trying... for years [to find this threat], without success.
We [hid because we] thought the enemy might show themselves. They were Sith, that much was certain.
If Jedi gather [...] then Jedi will die, and we will die for nothing.

What happened when the Jedi gathered at Katarr to figure out the Sith threat? They were killed by the Sith, along with everything else on the planet they met on. What happened to the three Jedi less than ten minutes after they gathered on Dantooine? They were killed by the Sith, exactly like they said would happen. They weren't hiding because they didn't want to do anything, they hid because not hiding would be suicide.

When you speak with Kavar, he says that he was looking for you on Onderon, but that Vrook hadn't wanted to place any value on what you could teach them.
When and where does Kavar say that he was looking for the Exile on Onderon, and when/where does he say anything about Vrook's opinion of the Exile? As far as I can recollect, he was sitting in the Onderon palace dealing with political events (or whatever his job/position there was).

When you face them a final time, Vrook's the one that condemns you to the final punishment of being cut off from the Force, instead of learning from you.
Please elaborate on what could've been learned from the Exile, or at the very least, what that actually means.

Again, dismissing the argument. And citing sources really seems to be an empty excuse to ignore my argument.
Are you ****ting me? How can you even make an argument without citing evidence from the material that is being discussed?

Darth_Yuthura
03-15-2009, 09:45 PM
More irrelevant filler about how brave the Exile was compared to the evil meany Jedi Council, and how unfair Vrook was to every character that you like, ignoring any reasons he had for his behavior other than your made-up ones about fear and pettiness and "unjustified" condemnation. You are attempting to outright demonize this character, and you bend the facts in order to do so.

Who exactly were the leaders of the Jedi Order? Revan? The Exile? Malak? It was the Council who had the power to act and it was under their leadership that the Galaxy went to hell. That cannot be denied. It doesn't matter whether or not the Exile and her allies were right or wrong; they didn't have the power to do anything, the Council did... and even then they failed.

Am I glorifying Revan and the Exile all the time? Probably, but according to the official version of the KOTOR universe, it is Revan and the Exile who were the heros and the Council... maybe weren't evil, but indifferent to anything other than what they believed was wrong. It can't be denied that they condemned the Exile to shift blame away from themselves, and when they had a chance to do the right thing, they were arrogant and condemned her yet again. (they had reason the second time, but were too quick to come to an easy solution.)

Vrook probably was a great Jedi, but was more arrogant than anything. Atris was like Vrook, only incompetent. Has there EVER been a time when Vrook admitted that he or the Council were wrong? (He did once say 'we, the Jedi' but this put him as one among many... compared to him ruling above thousands with supreme authority) I would think that one like Vrook would have been the first to admit his failure, but instead, he died thinking it was everyone else because they didn't do what he wanted. If they had, maybe the Jedi Civil war wouldn't have happened, but maybe if he yielded to the rest of the Order, Revan never would have established a banner under which to gather followers.

Who should the Jedi have supported? Vrook LOVED blaming Revan and his followers for everything... even when the Council should have been able to deal with ONE rogue Jedi. Under the Council's leadership, the entire Order went all to hell. Did Vrook or Atris EVER take responsibility for their bad leadership? They WERE the ones commanding the Order with a totalitarian authority and under their leadership, the Order was destroyed. Why would anyone support people who disregarded everyone else's opinions?

Were they right? Were they the best ones to lead? Well they can't deny that they failed to lead the Order when they faced the Mandalorians and Revan. The Mandalorians were a severe threat and Revan established his base of power solely because of the choices the Council made. Either Revan were a god, or the Council had to have been utterly incompetent... and shouldn't have been leading in the first place.

As for Atris... there is NO justification for what she did with Katarr. She betrayed the Jedi and the massacre wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for her. Her motives are quite apparent considering that she went to... wait DIDN'T go to Katarr to face the threat when she sold the Order out. That means that Atris couldn't possibly justify her traitorous actions because she didn't want to face the threat, but was more than willing to make others do it for her.

Atris was evil, Vrook simply believed himself perfect and acted as though he were... unwilling to compromise. THAT is why he failed miserably as a leader.

Astor
03-16-2009, 09:24 AM
Who exactly were the leaders of the Jedi Order? Revan? The Exile? Malak? It was the Council who had the power to act and it was under their leadership that the Galaxy went to hell.

The Jedi aren't responsible for the galaxy, and it's silly to suggest such.

TKA-001
03-16-2009, 10:34 AM
and it was under their leadership that the Galaxy went to hell. That cannot be denied.
It also can't be denied that Cloud City at Bespin was subjugated by the First Galactic Empire when Lando Calrissian was the administrator of said city, so it's his fault that the Empire took it over.

"The Council left millions to die, yadda yadda yadda". You probably didn't know this, but the Republic (you know, the galactic government which had a huge fleet and army to protect itself with?) sat on its hands for ten years while the Mandalorians blitzkrieged across the Outer Rim, but I don't see you jumping all over them for indecisiveness failure of leadership and all that other melodrama.

Am I glorifying Revan and the Exile all the time?
Yes, you are. Shamelessly and inexcusably. You wouldn't be doing so at all if they weren't the player characters.

Probably, but according to the official version of the KOTOR universe, it is Revan and the Exile who were the heros and
Sorry, but the "official version" of the "KOTOR Universe" doesn't play favorites. It doesn't say who the "heroes" are. The only substantial source we have for how stupid the Council supposedly was and how great Revan and the Exile supposedly were is Kreia. Considering her twisted sense of ethics, morality, and the fact that she was a Sith Lord herself, her attempts to justify everything that her star pupil did and her extremely bigoted opinions in regards to the Jedi should not come as a surprise in any respect. Kreia is the most biased source of information in the entire game (not to mention at least as evil as any other Sith Lord in the series), but it's strange that everything she says is taken as fact, rather than as her opinion.

the Council... maybe weren't evil, but indifferent to anything other than what they believed was wrong.
"Maybe the Council wasn't totally evil, but it goes without saying that the person who started a galactic war and caused quadrillions of deaths even before beginning it definitely has moral superiority over them."

It can't be denied that they condemned the Exile to shift blame away from themselves, and when they had a chance to do the right thing, they were arrogant and condemned her yet again. (they had reason the second time, but were too quick to come to an easy solution.)
Shift blame away from themselves. Blame for what? More importantly, who was blaming them? Their reason for exiling the Exile the first time didn't have jack to do with the Mandalorian Wars. It was because she could have caused another split in the Jedi Order. And I'd like to hear what they should have done instead the second time.

Atris was like Vrook, only incompetent. Has there EVER been a time when Vrook admitted that he or the Council were wrong?
No, because he didn't believe he was wrong. Has there ever been a time when Revan admitted he/she was wrong? No, because he didn't believe he was wrong. How despicable of Revan, to believe that he was right.

(He did once say 'we, the Jedi' but this put him as one among many... compared to him ruling above thousands with supreme authority)
This statement reminds me of a fanfic I once read where the author tried to convince the reader that Vrook was the sole, undisputed emperor of the Jedi Order who ruled through fear, ignoring the fact that not only was he not the only one on the Council, but also not even the leader of said Council.

I would think that one like Vrook would have been the first to admit his failure, but instead, he died thinking it was everyone else because they didn't do what he wanted. If they had, maybe the Jedi Civil war wouldn't have happened, but maybe if he yielded to the rest of the Order, Revan never would have established a banner under which to gather followers.
More fact-bending about how virtually everyone in the Jedi Order except the Council wanted to follow Revan. Stop making things up to use as "evidence".

Who should the Jedi have supported? Vrook LOVED blaming Revan and his followers for everything
I've played KOTOR I several times, and I don't recall any conversations where Vrook chews Revan out for anything, let alone "everything." All he does is chip into the conversations with the rest of the Dantooine Council in his usual taciturn manner. I ask you again: Are you looking at the actual game, or your own fan fiction?

Under the Council's leadership, the entire Order went all to hell.
If a nation comes under attack from another nation, is it the leader of the first nation's fault that they were attacked, or the fault of the ones who actually attacked?

They WERE the ones commanding the Order with a totalitarian authority
Saying that the Jedi Council possessed "totalitarian authority" is misleading because it implies that the Jedi Order is a government, which it is not. It does not rule planets, its members are not "citizens", and the Order does not engage in diplomacy for itself with other governments.

and under their leadership, the Order was destroyed.
...destroyed by Revan.

Why would anyone support people who disregarded everyone else's opinions?
But that's what Revan and Malak did as well. Why should anyone support them?

Well they can't deny that they failed to lead the Order when they faced the Mandalorians and Revan.
Why not? They aren't responsible for the Republic's sickening incompetence or for Revan's "brilliant" ideas for making everything better.

The Mandalorians were a severe threat and
Again, the Mandalorians only became a threat because the Republic decided that it needed to wait for ten years before trying to stop them, but I don't hear you screaming bloody arrogant evil murder incompetent at the Republic for that. Of course, it goes without saying that the reason you don't is because they weren't opposed to Revan, and anyone who was opposed to Revan was a hypocritical, arrogant perfectionist.

Revan established his base of power solely because of the choices the Council made.
Wrong. Revan established his base of power by using the Republic's reliance on the Jedi to become a high-ranking military leader (how else would he get into such a position?), the Jedi Knights and apprentices that followed him, the strategies he used during the war to corrupt his followers, and the Star Forge later on. Revan's choices had jack squat to do with Vrook and the others. They didn't control Revan's actions. He had a brain and was capable of thinking for himself.

Either Revan were a god, or the Council had to have been utterly incompetent... and shouldn't have been leading in the first place.
But you believe both.

As for Atris... there is NO justification for what she did with Katarr. She betrayed the Jedi and the massacre wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for her.
Oh, I didn't know that Atris was a wound in the Force who was capable of draining the life from billions of lifeforms at once who was drawn to Katarr by all the Force-sensitives there. I thought it was Darth Nihilus who did that. My mistake.

It's Atris' fault that Katarr was depopulated? Then I guess Leia Organa on the first Death Star was as much to blame for Alderaan as Tarkin was, because he wouldn't have threatened the planet if it wasn't her home planet.

Her motives are quite apparent considering that she went to... wait DIDN'T go to Katarr to face the threat when she sold the Order out. That means that Atris couldn't possibly justify her traitorous actions because she didn't want to face the threat, but was more than willing to make others do it for her.
Atris' reasons for not being there at the time are unexplained and irrelevant. She did not intend for the massacre to happen, nor even had reason to expect it to happen, and that's all that matters.

No justification? How is it that Atris is irredeemably evil for indirectly and unintentionally being involved in a planet's depopulation, but Revan isn't irredeemably evil for deliberately engineering the destruction of Malachor just to make others loyal to him?

Atris was evil
I'm sure that that's true in your fan fiction, but Atris as seen in the actual game did not fall until probably shortly before the events of TSL. She sure as hell wasn't evil as far back as the Exile's trial, at any rate.

Vrook simply believed himself perfect and acted as though he were... unwilling to compromise. THAT is why he failed miserably as a leader.
Where was Vrook given an opportunity to "compromise" on anything? Where do you get these impressions of perfectionism? Where is the evidence that he believes himself perfect? In the game, I don't see any situations that are applicable for a compromise, or Vrook saying anything which even so much as implies that he thinks highly of himself, so mind if I just call bull**** on this one?

Darth_Yuthura
03-17-2009, 12:50 AM
Okay, maybe D_Y wanted to win too much. But don't you see? You're doing the same damn thing. Win at all costs.

And you know what? Everyone's going to lose.

Endorenna
03-18-2009, 10:28 AM
:lol:

I'm sorry, I just have to laugh at this thread. :p Seriously, there are these huge walls of text arguing whether or not Atris was evil and whether Vrook should he honored or hated!

Okay. I'll make my own wall, I s'pose. :xp:

Atris:

Atris just annoyed the stew outta me. That's why I don't like her. I don't think she was particularly evil, but I don't happen to like people who yell. If she hadn't started screaming, "YOU'RE A FILTHY MURDERER AND A DARK SIDER!!!!!" the instant the Exile walked into the room, I would have liked her better. Also, I don't happen to like people who can't even see that they're of the Dark Side, while accusing other of being Dark Siders. She was an arrogant jerk, IMO. Not necessarily evil or cruel, just...a jerk.


Vrook:

Okay, to start off, Vrook was not evil. He was a lot angrier than the rest of the Jedi Council, but I have to cut him some slack. Seriously, what has this guy gone through? He's watched his whole Order get destroyed. One of his greatest students became a Sith Lord. He had to stay in hiding for years, just so he wouldn't get hunted down and shot. He's had a hard time. I still completely dislike him, 'cuz I don't like crotchity old men, and I think he pontificated too much, but seriously? What Jedi Master doesn't pontificate too much? :lol: I still don't like him.


Revan:

Revan was evil. I'm sorry, he was. I don't care what his motives were for turning to the Dark Side. He did evil things. Frankly, I think he had less reason to turn to the Dark Side than, say--Darth Bane or Darth Zannah. I happen to think he was an awesome Sith Lord, and I like him better than the Republic AND the Jedi Council. Still, he was evil. The war he unleashed on the Galaxy and all the Jedi he killed is proof enough of that, I think. In the end, he, as we all know, was forcibly turned to the Light Side--no, actually, he wasn't. Revan died on that battleship when Malak fired on him. The person that came out of that whole incident was not Revan.


The Exile:

I blame Revan more than the Exile for the whole Malachor V thing. The Exile gave the order, true, but Revan gave her the order. I don't think she should have been kicked out of the Order--being cut off from the Force was sufficient punishment. She redeemed herself in the end, I believe. In other words, she wasn't evil.


The Jedi Code;

I'm not even going into it. All I know is that the Sith Code makes more sense. It would be possible to follow the Jedi Code, if you were trained to. After all, it's not like it's impossible to control your own feelings about/for other people. and hormones don't have to rule you. I don't exactly blame most of the Jedi who went against it and fell to the Dark Side, 'cuz, well, I have a rather nasty temper, but the Sith Code makes more sense.

BTW, the killer line of the Jedi Code is the 'There is no death; there is the Force". :lol:





PS: Yes, I'm biased about Revan and the Exile. :lol:

Darth_Yuthura
03-20-2009, 10:01 AM
I just wonder how many who voted for Vrook have been in the military. This is not to be argumentative; just a quarry.

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
03-22-2009, 06:34 AM
*attempts to read thread:*


*read, read, read, read, read, rea-ohlookmisshowardtv..*

Bee Hoon
03-22-2009, 07:01 AM
I've read your fan fiction. Are you sure you're looking at the game, instead of that?That was uncalled for.

Astor
03-22-2009, 08:31 AM
I just wonder how many who voted for Vrook have been in the military. This is not to be argumentative; just a quarry.

Honest, simple question - what has being in the military got to do with voing for Vrook?

Darth_Yuthura
03-22-2009, 03:25 PM
Honest, simple question - what has being in the military got to do with voing for Vrook?

Probably because he was like a military drill officer. As Machievelli once quoted, "Always angry, never satisfied. The kind of person who you come to thank later because he did not permit you any slack."

I could imagine a person who went through military training to appreciate this kind of character, as many others don't realize the importance of being pushed to the brink and making mistakes in training instead of in the field. If this is the reason people back Vrook, then I can appreciate that and will not argue their opinion.

One other thing...

TKI-001 made a statement that I used logic from my biassed fictions for this thread; I didn't. Yes, my fics are biassed, but I don't appreciate the comments that were made. I haven't made an issue of it, but I don't want them to be used against me or others unless I'm the one who uses them here in the first place... which I haven't. I also don't glorify Revan or the Exile in my fictions, but rather they are based on a character's point of view. I may trash the Council, but that doesn't mean I think my favorite characters are always right. Even if I did, it doesn't matter because I didn't bring elements from my fictions into this.

mur'phon
03-22-2009, 03:29 PM
*makes a mental note not to vote in this poll until after my draft year*:xp:

Astor
03-22-2009, 03:39 PM
Probably because he was like a military drill officer. As Machievelli once quoted, "Always angry, never satisfied. The kind of person who you come to thank later because he did not permit you any slack."

I could imagine a person who went through military training to appreciate this kind of character, as many others don't realize the importance of being pushed to the brink and making mistakes in training instead of in the field. If this is the reason people back Vrook, then I can appreciate that and will not argue their opinion.

I'm not in the military, but i've always liked Vrook, from the moment I saw him in the first game - he's not going to mince words, and he doesn't pull his punches - and he's right to be hard on his students considering the things he's been through - countless wars, and two wars that split the Order.

Wedge Suron
03-24-2009, 04:39 PM
Vandar is my faviourite.

ShinDangaioh
04-01-2009, 09:18 PM
[delurk]
Vrook? He should not have been on the High Council. Military allegory continued. He is a drill sergeant . Drill sergeants do poorly when made brass.

I'll ignore the comics since I don't have them and I heard a rumor that they made Kreia a half-Miraluka

Vandar made several attempts to spill the beans about Revan and he did command the Jedi Forces during the battle of the Star Forge. I also have to cut him some slack, since he probably was there during the Freedon Nadd uprisings which led to Exar Kun. He's probably a little weary of all the wars that kiilled so many of his students and friends. I also felt his death was done horribly and a waste of a good character.

Cut content and what is missing from cut cotent. Lonna Vash(M4-78) was the one who taught the Exile how to end the Force Bond between the Exile and Kreia. It is also obvious she was to die fighting Sion on M4-78 saving the Exile, since Kreia mentions nothing to Vash in restored talks on Dantooine. Vash could have turned the council around and prevent that entire attempt to strip the Exile of the Force.(my vote went to her)

Atris: All the Jedi Order asked for was time to analyze the Mandalorian threat.
Napolean Bonepart: Ask me for anything but time.
That pretty much says it all right there.

As to Zez Kai-Ell, I got the feeling that he wanted to die upon the Exile's lightsaber. I think he should have jumped into one of those pits on Nar Shadda, instead of trying to convince the Exile to kill him. (I never do, since I play LS) He was way too suicidal and thus that conclave on Dantooine was what he wanted all along. He wanted to die. I feel pity for him.

Dorak? Well can't really blame him too much. Atris was the Historian of the High Council and Dorak was probably her underling in chronicling the Jedi histoy. He was the historian for Dantooine.

Zhar? There is not much to say about him one way or the other.

Kavar? I feel nutreal about him. He's the one who should have led the charge against the Mandalorians. Canderous himself said that they were expecting to fight against Kavar, not Revan.

1. Lonna Vash
2. Vandar Tokare
3. Zez Kai-Ell
4. Kavar
5. Zhar Lenstil
6. Dorak
7. Vrook Lamar(He should not have been on the High Council. That's not his strength)
8. Atris

Do I go back to lurking or not?

Edit: I almost forgot Vandar follows a different Jedi Code than the others.
Emotion; yet peace
Ignorance; yet knowledge
Passion; yet serenity
Chaos; yet harmony
Death; yet the Force

This code doesn't have the unrealistic standards that the Jedi Code and Sith Code you are forced to memorize in KOTOR hve. This is the code that Thon, Nomi Sunrider, and several others followed

Darth_Yuthura
04-01-2009, 09:32 PM
Do I go back to lurking or not?

Welcome to the forums. Feel free to post whatever you wish and it will be welcomed... so long as it isn't directed at another member.

It's nice to get a nice description of what we each think of the Council members. I really would have voted for Vash had she been in the game originally. I would have selected her, Kavar, and ZKE... simply for being decent Jedi.

Vrook may have been wise, but was always overconfident... Atris was like an incompetent version of him... the only reason I detest her more than him.

moda
07-27-2009, 05:58 AM
to once more revive this thread, i have to say of the masters in tsl atris is perhaps the best character, in her you see the tragedy of emotion, in many ways she is similar to the character of othello, in that her passions become her undoing, and as she finnally comes undone she seeks to destroy everything around her.

in her dialouge with brianna on the return to telos, you see much the same scenerio as you see at the end othello, with her first seeking to end her rival, then to destroy her love.

atris in many ways is the sterotype which the jedi band about when preaching of the dangers of attachment. her tragedy is such that it makes her fall all the more sorrowful, she fell because she couldnt bear what she had done to the one she loved, she couldnt endure with out her love.

off course this whole aspect only really has its full impact if you play as a male exile otherwise she seems like a bitter old hag.

but who knows maybe im just a sad and sorry romantic :P

ShinDangaioh
07-27-2009, 10:30 AM
I saw some of the cut content for Atris and whew, she has really lost it. She set Brianna's sisters(the Handmaidens) upon her to kill her.

"If she kills her sisters, she has fallen to the Dark Side. If she does not, then she will die. Such is sacrifice."

Back to Vrook. Vrook blamed Revan and the others for the destruction of Duros, Eres III, and Serrocco. Three planets that the Mandolrians devestated before Revan and the others entered the war.

I saw a rumor that the Jedi High Council did their best to keep the news of the destruction of Cathar a secret in the comics. Revan exposed that secret and that is what split the Order.

moda
07-27-2009, 10:36 AM
I saw some of the cut content for Atris and whew, she has really lost it. She set Brianna's sisters(the Handmaidens) upon her to kill her.

"If she kills her sisters, she has fallen to the Dark Side. If she does not, then she will die. Such is sacrifice."


hence my entire othello reference, love is the most fragile of emotions, when it becomes twisted it turns into an ravenous beast unfeeling and uncaring. that is the true tragedy of Atris, she was destroyed because she loved nothing more nothing less

Gob
07-27-2009, 11:44 AM
hence my entire othello reference, love is the most fragile of emotions, when it becomes twisted it turns into an ravenous beast unfeeling and uncaring. that is the true tragedy of Atris, she was destroyed because she loved nothing more nothing less

No. It's because she had passion. As Jolee said, it's passion that leads to the Dark Side, not love. Love is what saves you from the Dark Side. It's the reason Darth Vader turned back to the light, and it's the key to becoming a Force ghost. In the NJO, they taught to love, but control your passion. Yoda also understood that forbidding love was what led to the downfall of the Jedi.

moda
07-27-2009, 12:11 PM
love is entwined within passion, else love wouldnt be so special, to forbid passion is to forbid love. without passion love is nothing. and in many ways i would say atris was turned because of passion, she was turned because she became bitter over time, her bitterness stemmed from her love which was denied and supressed. this bitterness turned to anger, anger at the galaxy, anger at the exile, anger at the jedi and most importantly anger at herself. that is why she fell, not because of passion, but because of passion denied

purifier
07-27-2009, 12:32 PM
Holy Wookiees, this freak'in thing is still going on after all this time. Talk about your long running threads.

Anyway, Atris has my vote despite her attitude towards the exile. That's just a case of her having too much passion in her beliefs about the Mandalorin Wars. She likes to argue - like everyone else.


I got a question though to everybody, do any of the Masters remind you of anybody that you've dealt with in your own life? Just a thought.

Me, I would have to say Vrook hands down. I've come across two individuals like that so far in my lifetime.

Gob
07-27-2009, 02:03 PM
love is entwined within passion, else love wouldnt be so special, to forbid passion is to forbid love. without passion love is nothing. and in many ways i would say atris was turned because of passion, she was turned because she became bitter over time, her bitterness stemmed from her love which was denied and supressed. this bitterness turned to anger, anger at the galaxy, anger at the exile, anger at the jedi and most importantly anger at herself. that is why she fell, not because of passion, but because of passion denied

Love =/= Passion. Buddhism says to love without forming attachments, which is entirely possible. Jedi are based on Buddhists. Again, love is what saves people from the Dark Side. Passion is what brings them to it.

I got a question though to everybody, do any of the Masters remind you of anybody that you've dealt with in your own life? Just a thought.

Me, I would have to say Vrook hands down. I've come across two individuals like that so far in my lifetime.

Haha, yeah. Vrook = my dad, except my dad has a sense of humour. Also, Zez = my friend, because they both look like hippies.

purifier
07-27-2009, 02:26 PM
Haha, yeah. Vrook = my dad, except my dad has a sense of humour. Also, Zez = my friend, because they both look like hippies.



You say one of them was a parent, your father, yep....same here. Only in my case it's my mother. I swear to god she is just like the character Vrook, she's always naggin the hell out of me over every thing, I mean for godsake leave me alone woman.

She constantly says to me: Your always making excuses for yourself (my name)!

And I say: Yea, but this broken leg really f***ing hurts damnit! Tough love man. Tough love.

Know what I mean?

Gob
07-27-2009, 03:02 PM
You say one of them was a parent, your father, yep....same here. Only in my case it's my mother. I swear to god she is just like the character Vrook, she's always naggin the hell out of me over every thing, I mean for godsake leave me alone woman.

She constantly says to me: Your always making excuses for yourself (my name)!

And I say: Yea, but this broken leg really f***ing hurts damnit! Tough love man. Tough love.

Know what I mean?

Come to think of it, my sister's like that, too. She gets angry over the most trivial things, and then when you tell her off, she starts on about something else... Actually, a lot of people do that. But I guess we're getting off topic.

So, who likes Zez's mustache?

Master Shake
07-27-2009, 05:38 PM
So, who likes Zez's mustache?
It's the reason I play the game.

purifier
07-27-2009, 06:31 PM
So, who likes Zez's mustache?


Originally Posted by Master Shake
It's the reason I play the game.


Yeeaaa, that damn thing has got some character to it don't it? Hmmm, you know what....I'd say his whole look has got character to his character. (Wait a minute...did I say that right?)

Anyway I'm thinking maybe retro 60's or 70's with his stache, hippie style. He would have been my first choice on this poll, if it were not for Atris.


Score 1 for the hippies man, oh yeaaaaaa! (hi five)

Gob
07-27-2009, 06:49 PM
Yeah, purple lightsaber and everything. I cried when he died, but it was canceled out by Vrook dying.

Darth_Yuthura
07-27-2009, 07:50 PM
Anyway, Atris has my vote despite her attitude towards the exile. That's just a case of her having too much passion in her beliefs about the Mandalorin Wars. She likes to argue - like everyone else.

Me, I would have to say Vrook hands down. I've come across two individuals like that so far in my lifetime.

I could say I'm a lot like Vrook when it comes to the way I interact on this site, yet I see no reason for people to like me... unless I'm advocating for their side. Either way, they are characters I just love to hate because... well that's the way they are. It does take some sacrifice to be likable and if you don't do that, you're going to be dismissed. He and Atris deserve all the disrespect they get.

Atris is NOT a Jedi. She wasn't simply misguided, she betrayed the Jedi on Katarr. It wasn't passion but greed and lust for power that she turned to the DS. I never redeem her in the game.

Trench
07-27-2009, 08:46 PM
Vandar:D
I like the way he is portrayed in Darth_Yuthura's fanfic.:D

purifier
07-27-2009, 10:01 PM
I could say I'm a lot like Vrook when it comes to the way I interact on this site,


I really don't see that in you DY, you have opinions about certain ideas that you believe in just like everyone else here on LucasForums an I can respect that, so don't sell yourself short.

It does take some sacrifice to be likable and if you don't do that, you're going to be dismissed.


Oh noooo, please don't believe this. In certain social circles they would call doing this self sabotage. The more you try and push yourself on people and try to be likeable the more they will try and push you away. Believe me, I've been there. Just be your real self.:) And care not whether they like you or they don't... known what I mean?

He and Atris deserve all the disrespect they get.


I can respect your opinion on that, but as for me I try to see past there words and there emotions and get to real problem as to what's driving them to act that way. Are they fearful, do they feel resentment or do they feel betrayed themselves somehow? There is always more to it than we know.


she betrayed the Jedi on Katarr.


Hmmm, I thought I read somwhere in Wookieepedia that she did that just to draw out the real threat facing the jedi and it became a screw up on her part. Betrayal... I dunno could have been that too though.

Darth_Yuthura
07-27-2009, 10:46 PM
I really don't see that in you DY, you have opinions about certain ideas that you believe in just like everyone else here on LucasForums an I can respect that, so don't sell yourself short.

Thanks.


Oh noooo, please don't believe this. In certain social circles they would call doing this self sabotage. The more you try and push yourself on people and try to be likeable the more they will try and push you away. Believe me, I've been there. Just be your real self.:) And care not whether they like you or they don't... known what I mean?

Except Vrook goes out of his way to be disliked. If he just did nothing, everyone could love him, but he always goes out of his way to arrogantly proclaim him/the Council right and everyone else wrong.

And being myself isn't going to help; it will just make people uneasy around me. But you do have a point about guys going out of their way to be loved as being the problem.


I can respect your opinion on that, but as for me I try to see past there words and there emotions and get to real problem as to what's driving them to act that way. Are they fearful, do they feel resentment or do they feel betrayed themselves somehow? There is always more to it than we know.

Except they don't see past that in the Exile. To them, she got exactly what she deserved and they were not responsible for anything. That's the kind of person/character I just want to slap across the face. Vrook always speaks of how evil Revan was without ever admitting that he was wrong to ignore the Mandalorians in the first place.

I mean, he was a very colorful character compared to all the other 'noble' and respectable people in the Jedi Order; but that doesn't mean I like him any more. I would rather have more characters like Vrook... maybe not him specifically... than more Luke Skywalkers in the SW universe. Otherwise it would be the same old same old all the time.

Hmmm, I thought I read somwhere in Wookieepedia that she did that just to draw out the real threat facing the jedi and it became a screw up on her part. Betrayal... I dunno could have been that too though.

Which is why she went there herself and died along with all the other Jedi on Katarr? No, she sold them out. If she went and died there herself, then I wouldn't call that a betrayal.

purifier
07-27-2009, 11:52 PM
Except Vrook goes out of his way to be disliked.


Well you could say that, but I'm more willing to go along with the arrogance part and self pride to add to it. You know... the - I know what I'm talking about so you better listen to me. - attitude.
Oh yeah and judgemental too.


And being myself isn't going to help; it will just make people uneasy around me.

Hmmm, are you sure about that. You never really know to you give it a shot DY. I've learned over the years it's because of the way we think that dertermines our outlook on life and the response of others around us. Sometimes it can be bad and sometimes it can be good.


I would rather have more characters like Vrook... maybe not him specifically... than more Luke Skywalkers in the SW universe. Otherwise it would be the same old same old all the time.

Agreed.


Which is why she went there herself and died along with all the other Jedi on Katarr? No, she sold them out.


I dunno, I was thinking she wasn't on the planet itself at the time when Nihilus sucked the life out of Katarr and it's people; and that she was in a starship that was orbiting the planet at the time. Because she was waiting for the enemy in order to trap them and of course the enemy was not what she had expected and so she left the area before she became the next target. Hence "her screw up" do you see where I'm going with this?

Master Shake
07-28-2009, 12:27 AM
Hence "her screw up" do you see where I'm going with this?
Screwing up happens when someone makes a mistake. I don't think causing the death of 90% of the Jedi made her say "Oops, silly me."

She was just downright evil, I can see why cut content had her as the possible last boss.

purifier
07-28-2009, 01:23 AM
Screwing up happens when someone makes a mistake. I don't think causing the death of 90% of the Jedi made her say "Oops, silly me."

She was just downright evil, I can see why cut content had her as the possible last boss.


Yes, eventually she did become that (evil) but only because of her own blind passion to seek out evil and destroy it herself. And I figured she was doing this so as to redeem herself from the horrible mistake she made at Katarr, that's the idea I was getting from the writers at Obsidian. Well at least that's what I believe they were trying to convey in the story anyway, because of all the dialogue that anybody encounters while playing the game.

Now if you want to talk about downright evil, well...Darth Nihilus gets my vote on that. I think he was the major antagonist in this story.

Master Shake
07-28-2009, 01:46 AM
Now if you want to talk about downright evil, well...Darth Nihilus gets my vote on that. I think he was the major antagonist in this story.
No no no, the main antagonist was Lucasarts. They tried to keep us from fully enjoying TSL, now THAT'S evil.

purifier
07-28-2009, 02:28 AM
No no no, the main antagonist was Lucasarts. They tried to keep us from fully enjoying TSL, now THAT'S evil.


*accidentally spits out coffee while reading Master Shake's reply*


HOLY JUMPING JEDIS! Are you serious? :eek:

I never heard of such a thing.
Wait a minute....your joking right? Riiiight?

Master Shake
07-28-2009, 03:47 AM
Wait a minute....your joking right? Riiiight?
I wish I were........ I wish I were.

Gob
07-28-2009, 10:36 AM
Screwing up happens when someone makes a mistake. I don't think causing the death of 90% of the Jedi made her say "Oops, silly me."

She was just downright evil, I can see why cut content had her as the possible last boss.

Lolz... Atris didn't cause the death of all those Jedi intentionally; she wasn't pure dag nasty evil then. She tried to root out the problem, but she didn't think that it was someone that could suck the life out of an entire planet. So actually, she probably was like "Oops, silly me." except on a much larger scale. She was just dumb.

purifier
07-28-2009, 11:03 AM
Lolz... Atris didn't cause the death of all those Jedi intentionally; she wasn't pure dag nasty evil then. She tried to root out the problem, but she didn't think that it was someone that could suck the life out of an entire planet. So actually, she probably was like "Oops, silly me." except on a much larger scale. She was just dumb.



That's the way I see it - no doubt, although I wouldn't call her dumb. I believe she just got caught up in her passion to root out evil and to no ends until the Exile made her see the light near the end of the story.

Darth_Yuthura
07-28-2009, 01:04 PM
So the Exile 'deserved' what she got for going to war, but Atris somehow thought that she was exempt from such things? Atris was a council member, but I don't think that she discussed with any of the others what she intended to do. At least with Vrook, he would have followed his own bull****, but Atris just did whatever was convenient for her. And when she saw what happened after Katarr, maybe she would have realized the best thing was to just step aside. Continuing to operate in secret from the other Jedi after that shows that she was acting for herself.

I'm not going to keep telling people what they should or shouldn't think. This is just fictional after all.

ZKE was an interesting character because he recognized the flaws of the Order and instead of correcting them, he withdrew completely. He and Vash told the Exile that she had done the right thing, but not any of the others. Even Kavar held to the beliefs that more harm was done by Revan and his followers than good.

I dislike the council that were quick enough to condemn the Exile, but could offer no solution to deal with the Mandalorians. That's why I intensely dislike Atris and Vrook.

purifier
07-28-2009, 05:21 PM
So the Exile 'deserved' what she got for going to war, but Atris somehow thought that she was exempt from such things?


Well actually the Exile didn't deserve anything and the council misjudged him/her out of their own fears. Atris believed she was doing the right thing because of blind passion along with hate, fear and self denial.


Atris was a council member, but I don't think that she discussed with any of the others what she intended to do.


I was thinking that too.


At least with Vrook, he would have followed his own bull****, but Atris just did whatever was convenient for her. And when she saw what happened after Katarr, maybe she would have realized the best thing was to just step aside. Continuing to operate in secret from the other Jedi after that shows that she was acting for herself.


You could say it was the flaw in her thinking or poor judgement rather, for example the: I know better and I know what I'm doing. - type of thinking. Which eventually lead to her downfall.




ZKE was an interesting character because he recognized the flaws of the Order and instead of correcting them, he withdrew completely. He and Vash told the Exile that she had done the right thing, but not any of the others.


I think they were trying to see things from the Exile's point of view.


I dislike the council that were quick enough to condemn the Exile, but could offer no solution to deal with the Mandalorians. That's why I intensely dislike Atris and Vrook.

I can understand that.

Master Shake
07-28-2009, 11:19 PM
She was just dumb.
Now it all makes sense.