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jonathan7
07-15-2008, 09:07 AM
Personally I'm not a fan of nationalism, so I suppose it follows that I don't like National pride...

A few thoughts of mine;

I love the way Pride always seems to be instilled in people when other nations have the cheek to question their (very bad) leaders; http://uk.news.yahoo.com/itn/20080715/twl-un-staff-urged-to-stay-at-home-41f21e0.html

For the ICC to have done what they have suggests to me they must have some pretty damning evidence, and people's reaction, I think is quite frankly stupid.

(Sidenote; I think this guy is guilty of genocide, but why are we only doing this to him, where are the warrants for say Mugabe?)

In patriotism stakes I have seen the same with Russians and former President Putin - in that any foreign criticism is brushed off as unfair, wrong and propaganda.

Personally I generally have no problems with Brown being criticised; I think Blair should have been (and still should be) charged and put to prison for an illegal war in Iraq. That said I find it highly amusing when say Iran criticises Britain for sexism? That coming from a country where woman can be put in prison from being raped... gimme a break.

Thoughts?

Totenkopf
07-15-2008, 10:57 AM
Some of it might be "better the devil you know". The world isn't unified, politically or culturally. There is no doubt distrust on all sides of the intentions of outsiders. Question becomes how you are going to remove these people. Invasion, black-ops, assassination, etc...? Look how big a problem removing Aidid became in the 90s or even Saddam in 2003. What do you do about the situation in the wake of the removal? Will someone equally heinous take over? Then there is the other consideration. What if someone wants to turn that power against western or developed govts? Are you willing to just hand over someone to an outfit like the ICC or UN from your own country, especially if you believe the charges are fabricated or merely political? I'm going to hazard a guess that there is a fear of precedent that really blocks many from actually doing anything other than "running their mouths".

Nationalism, given how divided the world is, is not in itself that bad a thing. Like everything, though, it's the extreme end that cause the most problems. Should concepts like family loyalty also be abandonned b/c they are abused, at least in the eyes of some people?

Samuel Dravis
07-15-2008, 11:14 AM
I think there's a difference between nationalism and national pride. The former I have issues with and the latter I emphatically support. I really like the US as a country, and I've got no problem waving flags around and similar things. However, that liking does not necessarily extend to the current government of the US, or incline me to excuse or justify its actions.

I can be realistic about my national government's policies, but that doesn't stop me from liking the rest of my country and showing it. If this kind of national pride is pathetic, then so be it.

Totenkopf
07-15-2008, 11:26 AM
I think that you can be proud of your country, as you point out, and not in it's leadership. But the type of national pride where you rally the people to oppose outsiders seems more like the hallmark of extreme nationalism. Pride taken to the next level, where questions of patriotism assume a greater kind of importance than merely whether "our olympic team beat yours". I guess, like any political philosophy, the dangers of something like nationalism are going to depend on the strain in question.

Astor
07-15-2008, 12:26 PM
Well, as a born and bred Englishman, and a fan of the Royal Family, National Pride for me means celebrating things like the Queen's Birthdays (especially the trooping of the colour), and other similar events, like VE day, and Armistice Day. Celebrating things that give the country a reason to turn out and feel proud of it's achievements is national pride. Not getting upset because another country has said that it's leader is a criminal.

A few weeks ago, my town's regiments came back from Iraq. I was there, cheering and watching them come back. That's National Pride to me, not what those Sudanese are doing.

And I'll do all of this without even caring who happens to be the Prime Minister at the time. I'm not there to support our Government, but our head of state, and, by extension the country at large.

So no, I don't think that National Pride is pathetic, if you believe in and love your country, you should show it! Americans show the rest of the world how much they love their country, and I think it's great. I don't see that as them supporting their President or whatever, but their pride in the USA.

True_Avery
07-15-2008, 01:23 PM
I think there's a difference between nationalism and national pride. The former I have issues with and the latter I emphatically support. I really like the US as a country, and I've got no problem waving flags around and similar things. However, that liking does not necessarily extend to the current government of the US, or incline me to excuse or justify its actions.

I can be realistic about my national government's policies, but that doesn't stop me from liking the rest of my country and showing it. If this kind of national pride is pathetic, then so be it.
I agree completely.

Balderdash
07-15-2008, 01:52 PM
I find the concept of patriotism more than a bit daft, but I don't really take serious issue with it, either.

Arcesious
07-15-2008, 02:09 PM
For me, patriotism and nationism are things be which I can have fun with during the holidays. The country I live in isn't perfect, nor even close, in fact it's horribly messed up, but there's something about 'being proud to be an American' that makes me really happy during the holidays. I bet it's the same way for others, of other countries, except that the 'american' is replaced by whatever county citizen referral they have, such as Russian, Australian, Italian, you know, whatever.

Nedak
07-15-2008, 02:28 PM
Patriotism is way overdone in this country.

It's become propaganda that is used when you disagree with the country. "You're un-patriotic."

HerbieZ
07-15-2008, 02:48 PM
I have never really been patriotic or proud for my country. I don't really know why, but i just never understood it. I respect other people fight for it and fight in the name of it but personally i don't contribute like that in my current job role like others do. If anything, i have more respect for America than i do for England. It's so big and mighty. :)

Astor
07-15-2008, 02:54 PM
If anything, i have more respect for America than i do for England. It's so big and mighty. :)

We might not be as big, but we did have one of the greatest Empires the world has ever known. That, and we've beaten the hell out of France more times than I care to remember.

Balderdash
07-15-2008, 02:56 PM
Patriotism is way overdone in this country.

It's become propaganda that is used when you disagree with the country. "You're un-patriotic."
Your avy reminded me of a very relevant Bill quote. :D

" 'Are you proud to be an American?' - I was like - I dunno, I didn't have a lot to do with it... my parents f***** there, that's about all..."

Nedak
07-15-2008, 03:00 PM
" 'Are you proud to be an American?' - I was like - I dunno, I didn't have a lot to do with it... my parents f***** there, that's about all..."

Somebody had to say it sooner or later.

You just made it on my <3 list. :lol:

mur'phon
07-15-2008, 03:02 PM
I really don't see any reason to be proud of my country/to be a "insert nationality". I take no credit for what my nationals did in the past, and have about zero influence on how my country acts/is today. I'll be proud of my own achievements, and leave the "patriot pride" to those who did those great deeds.

Ray Jones
07-15-2008, 04:24 PM
I don't give much about nationalities. *Every* nation has its asshats and their misdeeds or other negatives to offer, as well as unique or outstanding persons and other positives.

nine.roses
07-17-2008, 04:34 AM
Well, as a born and bred Englishman, and a fan of the Royal Family, National Pride for me means celebrating things like the Queen's Birthdays (especially the trooping of the colour), and other similar events, like VE day, and Armistice Day.

Though I'm glad you enjoy it, I dislike the way monarchism is usually required if one wishes to be seen as patriotic. Though I like the Queen as a person; being an atheist and a person who opposes the concept of monarchy in principle I find all the various royal and religious ceremonies and celebrations rather banal. Unlike Canada and the US, England does not have a day for people to celebrate themselves (St. George's Day doesn't quite fit the bill): it seems the only person we ever celebrate is the Queen...

We might not be as big, but we did have one of the greatest Empires the world has ever known. That, and we've beaten the hell out of France more times than I care to remember.

I mean no slight on your character, but I also dislike the way English - and British - pride is often lodged over 150 years in the past. Though the USA also celebrates various episodes of its short history, it also seems to be able to say "we were the best and still are the best". England, it would appear, has very little to celebrate regarding its current state.

It seems we've been relegated to being a "quaint" antique for tourists, and for some odd reason ethnic minorities take offense at the English flag. This, I think, is a very sad state of affairs.

Q
07-17-2008, 04:53 AM
I don't give much about nationalities. *Every* nation has its asshats and their misdeeds or other negatives to offer, as well as unique or outstanding persons and other positives.QFT.

Too much national pride begets nationalism and, almost inevitably, war. But it could be said that not enough could result in defeat and servitude.

Perhaps it's like alcohol, food and, dare I say, sex in that it should be used, but only in moderation.

Astor
07-17-2008, 05:04 AM
Unlike Canada and the US, England does not have a day for people to celebrate themselves (St. George's Day doesn't quite fit the bill): it seems the only person we ever celebrate is the Queen...

St George's day would fit the bill pretty nicely if the government could be bothered to celebrate it. I didn't see or hear of any celebrations on the 23rd of April, as the government just seemed to let it pass.

And who would you rather celebrate? Gordon 'Happiest man alive' Brown, or Her Majesty? There's really no contest in that regard.


[Quote]I mean no slight on your character, but I also dislike the way English - and British - pride is often lodged over 150 years in the past. Though the USA also celebrates various episodes of its short history, it also seems to be able to say "we were the best and still are the best". England, it would appear, has very little to celebrate regarding its current state.

Well, we still have a fair bit to be proud of:

Our armed forces are some of, if perhaps not the best in the world.

The World Wide Web (not the internet, just the interface) was invented by an Englishman.

Some of the greatest actors of our age are English - Michael Caine, Christopher Lee, Ian McKellen.

There are plenty more reasons, you just need to look in the right places.

It seems we've been relegated to being a "quaint" antique for tourists, and for some odd reason ethnic minorities take offense at the English flag. This, I think, is a very sad state of affairs.

I think, for a lot of Americans, we're interesting because we gave birth to their country, so maybe it's natural that they want to see how far their roots go.

And as for the ethnic minorities finding our country offensive, they should be put on the next boat leaving England and deported if they clearly hate our country so much.

True_Avery
07-17-2008, 05:11 AM
QFT.

Too much national pride begets nationalism and, almost inevitably, war. But it could be said that not enough could result in defeat and servitude.

Perhaps it's like alcohol, food and, dare I say, sex in that it should be used, but only in moderation.
Agreed. You need a balance or either side can get out of control.

" 'Are you proud to be an American?' - I was like - I dunno, I didn't have a lot to do with it... my parents f***** there, that's about all..."
Reminds me of a Chris Rock quote:

" 'All you did was come out of your mother's p**** on American soil. That's it. That's it! What, you think you're better than somebody from France 'cause you came out of a p**** in Detroit?' "

nine.roses
07-17-2008, 06:39 AM
St George's day would fit the bill pretty nicely if the government could be bothered to celebrate it. I didn't see or hear of any celebrations on the 23rd of April, as the government just seemed to let it pass.

And who would you rather celebrate? Gordon 'Happiest man alive' Brown, or Her Majesty? There's really no contest in that regard.

None of them.

Independence Day, Canada Day and Australia Day are there to allow people to celebrate each other - not a central figure. St. George's Day isn't exclusive to England and isn't all-inclusive due to its religious ties; hence the reason why most people couldn't care less. Can you seriously imagine a Muslim, Jew, Sikh or Hindu celebrating St. George's Day - let alone the millions of agnostics and athiests who have recently appeared in England?

Well, we still have a fair bit to be proud of:

Our armed forces are some of, if perhaps not the best in the world.

The World Wide Web (not the internet, just the interface) was invented by an Englishman.

Some of the greatest actors of our age are English - Michael Caine, Christopher Lee, Ian McKellen.

What exactly do any of those mean to a second-generation Pakistani? Why should any of that make them feel good about themselves or any closer to the people living next door? Is greatness really still judged by military strength?

Yes, there is a lot to be proud of, I just think that the wrong things are usually highlighted.

And as for the ethnic minorities finding our country offensive, they should be put on the next boat leaving England and deported if they clearly hate our country so much.

So they'll hate our country even more? More carrot, less stick.

Inyri
07-17-2008, 09:22 AM
It's become propaganda that is used when you disagree with the country. "You're un-patriotic."I was called un-American because I hate domestic beers. :p

In any case, people just need to make the distinction between "America" and "the American government." This goes for all other nations as well. Us Americans might do well to realize that France and the French people are different as well (yes, I see you eating your freedom fries!). It's a very important line that's typically ignored because folks for some reason seem to like to blame the general populace for what their government is doing. As if most of us have any direct control over that, right?

Q
07-17-2008, 10:16 AM
It used to be considered unpatriotic to buy a foreign car.

Now it's considered unwise if you don't. ;)
I was called un-American because I hate domestic beers. :pYou and me both. Some of the microbrews aren't bad, though.

Relenzo2
07-17-2008, 08:28 PM
If someone were to criticize me for the nationality of my beers, and tell them the others were better to draw them into spouting patriotism, then say "What exactly am I supposed to be proud of in this country. Why do think I'm in this pit drinking my heart out!" Or somehting of the like. This ain't exactly America's golden age.
I would just emigrate to Canada or something, except for a certain person trying to get into the U.S. sniper core. If I get drafted, I'm gone to ****. I can just picture myself by a fire, shaking, with my gun, saying, "He's out there! He's out there, chugging and energy drink, waiting to kill us!" *screen pans over to the left. He's sitting next to me, drinking a Nos* "Nice story! *Blam Blam!* Hey, I know you!... *Blam!*"

Ray Jones
07-18-2008, 08:24 AM
Come again?

HerbieZ
07-19-2008, 11:35 AM
I am vaguely reminded of Twitch.

Darth_Yuthura
07-20-2008, 09:47 AM
I think national pride could be a good thing, but only when is drives change and improvement. The issue I have is that Americans tend to think that having an SUV, believing we're above the rest of the world, and worshiping celebrities is something to be proud of.

The US has been the greatest economic power in the world for a long time, but now we are a consumer nation. Almost everything manufactured comes from other nations... what does the US export to other nations? Our national pride is one of the causes of the US becoming an empire. Within our boarders, we live comfortably off the suffering of those outside the US.

Rev7
07-20-2008, 02:43 PM
I am vaguely reminded of Twitch.
They must be related somehow. :/

--

Hmmm, good question. I too am not a real big fan on nationalism. I really don't know what to say, I do celebrate national holidays and what-not, but I don't agree with everything that goes on in my country. The government, laws, ect, but I am still proud to be an American. Its just....ya....I am proud to say that I am an American, most of the time. That is really the only way that I could put it.

EDIT:
I think national pride could be a good thing, but only when is drives change and improvement. The issue I have is that Americans tend to think that having an SUV, believing we're above the rest of the world, and worshiping celebrities is something to be proud of.
I agree, and if it were like that (or hopefully becomes like that) I would be even more proud to say that I am an American. "I'm proud to be an American because we created an clean, safe, affordable alternate fuel (energy)!" That would be awesome!
The US has been the greatest economic power in the world for a long time, but now we are a consumer nation. Almost everything manufactured comes from other nations... what does the US export to other nations? Our national pride is one of the causes of the US becoming an empire. Within our boarders, we live comfortably off the suffering of those outside the US.
Good question. I tried googling it and I came up with "There are automobiles, computers, airplanes, and agricultural products." And even "Democracy". So my guess would be, not a whole lot. But yes, we do just sit back and let other countries do the work for us. I think that we should become more of an independant nation, and support ourselves more, and not have to rely on others so much. I fear that type of change would be a little hard though. :/

Link (http://history-providence.blogspot.com/2008/02/what-does-america-export-anyway.html)

Darth_Yuthura
07-20-2008, 03:59 PM
The issue with being independent from the rest of the world is that it's generally cheaper to import from elsewhere than manufacture it ourselves. American workers are more expensive than foreign workers. The economy revolves around the most efficient means of making profit with the least effort... that's what will destroy us.

We could become resource-independent, but it would involve paying more for a resource to produce within the US. Only when it becomes too expensive to import would we start making it ourselves. For now, it's cheaper to buy most of the resources we demand... that won't last forever.

Rev7
07-20-2008, 04:32 PM
The issue with being independent from the rest of the world is that it's generally cheaper to import from elsewhere than manufacture it ourselves. American workers are more expensive than foreign workers. The economy revolves around the most efficient means of making profit with the least effort... that's what will destroy us.

We could become resource-independent, but it would involve paying more for a resource to produce within the US. Only when it becomes too expensive to import would we start making it ourselves. For now, it's cheaper to buy most of the resources we demand... that won't last forever.
Everything revolves around money and profit. It definately won't last forever. It seems like there are just so many catches involved with nearly everything. If we try to do one thing, something else happens. Ugh.

Ray Jones
07-21-2008, 03:45 AM
I agree, and if it were like that (or hopefully becomes like that) I would be even more proud to say that I am an American. "I'm proud to be an American because we created an clean, safe, affordable alternate fuel (energy)!" That would be awesome!
How about "I'm proud to be human because we created an clean, safe, affordable alternate fuel (energy)" instead?

Darth_Yuthura
07-21-2008, 11:51 PM
Why should we be proud to be humans? We are a disease upon this planet and will end up killing ourselves because we disrupt the systems we depend on to survive. The very thing that separates us from animals will also be what brings about our demise.

Totenkopf
07-22-2008, 02:24 AM
Why should we be proud to be humans? We are a disease upon this planet and will end up killing ourselves because we disrupt the systems we depend on to survive. The very thing that separates us from animals will also be what brings about our demise.

Or our salvation.

Ray Jones
07-22-2008, 03:17 AM
Why should we be proud to be humans?Wrong context, mind you. My point is, why be proud to be American, African, or of any random nation, when it boils down to simply being human.

We are a disease upon this planet and will end up killing ourselves because we disrupt the systems we depend on to survive. The very thing that separates us from animals will also be what brings about our demise.Please let's not forget that the land living dinosaurs were about to face the same fate -- a changing environment, with more heat, and less food and water supply. While the fate of the dinosaurs was sealed otherwise eventually, many other species had to deal with the fact that the world around them has changed or had been changed in a manner they could not cope with any longer, and this long before humans hit the planet. So we're not special in any way regarding that.

At the end of the day it's not the fact that we are the "special" human race and our "special" separation from the animal that will cause our demise. It will be the fact that, once more, evolution went down the "wrong" road.

ForeverNight
07-22-2008, 09:57 AM
My point is, why be proud to be American, African, or of any random nation, when it boils down to simply being human.

Well, I guess its because of the fact that not every country in the world is... good? There's not a good word for it, because some people see a Dictatorship or a real Monarchy as something great and to be advanced towards.

Also, because not all countries have the freedoms that other countries do. For example, within most of Europe, its pretty hard to get a firearm, whilst over here in the US, its pretty easy to get a firearm. Not effortless, but fairly easy.

Not the only point I'm trying to bring up, but I think it gets my point across: all countries are different, they all have different social mores, and they all approach the same problem with a different angle.

So, I guess that, at the end of the day, I'm proud to be an American, not that I'm human, but an American.

Oh, and thanks for addressing the "Humans are going to die because we disrupt..." bit!

Inyri
07-22-2008, 10:07 AM
What that boils down to, then, is be proud of where you're from, but don't be hatin' on other folks for coming from somewhere different?

I am happy to be American, though not necessarily proud. My lack of pride has nothing to do with politics or anything, I just don't think much about it and don't see it as a pride issue (since I was born here -- can't be proud of myself when my parents are the ones who chose for me to live here, eh?). I am, though, happy that I was born here into a good life and I hope other people in other nations get the same opportunity.

I am happy to wave the American flag -- just like I'm happy to celebrate Christian religious holidays and such -- but I always hope that those from different cultures/religions will celebrate the spirit of these things with me. I am happy to celebrate Hanukkah with the Jews (in spirit) or celebrate Canada Day with the Canadians (in spirit) because, at the end of the day, we're all one big group of people.

ForeverNight
07-22-2008, 10:12 AM
No, it's not just that your parents decided to have you here...

If you read the 14th Amendment, it says:

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Section 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age,(See Note 15) and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

Section 1 is the only important one there. It says in it: subject to the jurisdiction thereof. At least, as I interpret it, that means you also have you allegiance to the country. E.G. You cannot be in the Jurisdiction of the place if you do not hold any allegiance to there.

So, it is more than your parents lived here. Does it give you a leg up? Like heck it doesn't! You live here, you hold your allegiance to the US, thus you are a Citizen. Both have to occur.

Inyri
07-22-2008, 10:21 AM
That's not what that means. In fact, saying you have to have allegiance to the US to be a citizen is outright silly. If you're born here you're a citizen, period.

Totenkopf
07-22-2008, 01:07 PM
No, it's not just that your parents decided to have you here...

If you read the 14th Amendment, it says:



Section 1 is the only important one there. It says in it: subject to the jurisdiction thereof. At least, as I interpret it, that means you also have you allegiance to the country. E.G. You cannot be in the Jurisdiction of the place if you do not hold any allegiance to there.


Actually, you don't have to be a citizen of a country to be subject to its jurisdiction. Just ask any foreign smuggler in a Turkish (or elsewhere) prison. They hold no allegiance to those countries. Nor do the inmates of a foreign POW camp.

However, if you mean that by remaining a citizen of good standing in any particular country that you demonstrate an allegiance to it, you're probably correct.

Ray Jones
07-22-2008, 04:33 PM
Well, I guess its because of the fact that not every country in the world is... good? There's not a good word for it, because some people see a Dictatorship or a real Monarchy as something great and to be advanced towards.Hm. Who do you think has more reason to be a proud American. The native American tribes? The Vikings? Or those Americans who came from Spain? Or Italy. England? Scotland? Germany? Or Russia, China, India. Mexico? What would you say?


Also, because not all countries have the freedoms that other countries do. For example, within most of Europe, its pretty hard to get a firearm, whilst over here in the US, its pretty easy to get a firearm. Not effortless, but fairly easy.Oh, I'm pretty sure there are many countries where you have any freedom to get as many firearms as you want as well as the right to watch your pregnant wife's womb slit open and your daughters being raped and shot right in front of you. Way to be proud of freedom.


Not the only point I'm trying to bring up, but I think it gets my point across: all countries are different, they all have different social mores, and they all approach the same problem with a different angle.And yet, they all use water to cook.


So, I guess that, at the end of the day, I'm proud to be an American, not that I'm human, but an American.And Americans are not humans?

mimartin
07-22-2008, 05:49 PM
You live here, you hold your allegiance to the US, thus you are a Citizen. Both have to occur. By whose standard? I just want to know to whom I must prove my allegiance to be considered an U.S. Citizen. If I’m not a citizen why did I have to postmark a ten thousand dollar check to Uncle Sammy two hours ago?

I’m proud to be an American and would hope everyone has the opportunity and reason to have some pride in their country. I don’t always feel my country does what is right or even in its best interest, but I’m still proud and grateful to those that have fought and died to protect my freedoms even when I don’t agree with some of those freedoms. I don’t believe I live in the greatest country in the world, but I do believe I live on the greatest planet in the solar system.

Darth_Yuthura
07-24-2008, 11:23 PM
Iím proud to be an American and would hope everyone has the opportunity and reason to have some pride in their country. I donít always feel my country does what is right or even in its best interest, but Iím still proud and grateful to those that have fought and died to protect my freedoms even when I donít agree with some of those freedoms. I donít believe I live in the greatest country in the world, but I do believe I live on the greatest planet in the solar system.

I am NOT proud to be an American because it required no effort on my part. I think that pride comes from an actual accomplishment. Don't say you're proud of yourself for something you didn't have to work for. Be proud of those who sacrificed their lives for the state. Be proud of your own accomplishments rather than simply being an American.

I'm an American as well... why should I be proud of that?

Samuel Dravis
07-25-2008, 12:40 AM
I am NOT proud to be an American because it required no effort on my part. I think that pride comes from an actual accomplishment. Don't say you're proud of yourself for something you didn't have to work for. Be proud of those who sacrificed their lives for the state. Be proud of your own accomplishments rather than simply being an American.

I'm an American as well... why should I be proud of that?Why can't there be more than one sort of pride? All it would require is that people use the same word in different circumstances - and that seems to be the case here. This "national pride" is just a sort of pride that doesn't require any particular deeds on the part of those who feel it. It's hard to mistake one for the other in practice - I wouldn't put "American" on a resume - but they are similar (though certainly not identical!) concepts. I think it's entirely possible to feel proud to be American and proud of your accomplishments - in different senses of the word - at the same time.

Darth_Yuthura
07-25-2008, 12:54 AM
I don't like thinking of myself as an American. I don't like being a part of a war that was waged upon the whim of greedy individuals. When I see Americans dying and hearing the ones who caused the war saying that we should support our troops... it sickens me. Although I didn't have any influence on the war one way or another, I'm still a part of the state that waged it. Hundreds of thousands of deaths(murders) resulted from the war in Iraq. I don't want to be a part of that, but I am.

This is a mouthful that I just posted, but this is what I think about being an American.

Rev7
07-25-2008, 01:09 AM
How about "I'm proud to be human because we created an clean, safe, affordable alternate fuel (energy)" instead?
That is what I said. ;)

RyuuKage
07-25-2008, 01:43 AM
I can be proud of the national concept of America.

I'm certainly not proud of our government at any level...idiots...in fact, i'm sickened by a good 95% of our citizenry as well.

screw it, humans suck...

Arcesious
07-25-2008, 01:54 AM
Most of humanity sucks, and most all nationalities are irrelevent. For what it's worth, I'm proud to be a human. For what it stands for to truly be 'human'...

Totenkopf
07-25-2008, 01:57 AM
What, you mean all the great things like perversion, homicidal tendencies, myopia, greed, hateful, vanity, etc, ad nauseam. :xp: :lol:

Arcesious
07-25-2008, 02:02 AM
No... i'm only proud of what really matters about being a human. Sentience, thought, free will, curiousity, advancement, and fun.

Web Rider
07-25-2008, 02:22 AM
No... i'm only proud of what really matters about being a human. Sentience, thought, free will, curiousity, advancement, and fun.

To be truthful, the only one of those that's mostly humanity is Advancement. It's up in the air if certain animals that are known to be highly intelligent, such as dolphins, some species of ape, and elephants, are not sentient. And just about every living thing is curious, has free will(save maybe ants and hive-minded bugs), and has fun.

TheExile
07-25-2008, 03:02 AM
Long live mother Russia!!!... naaaaah....
For the freedom of America!!!! naaaaaaaaaaaaaaah...
THIS IS SPARTA!!!! YEEEEEEEESSSS!!!!

Currently, I'm not proud of my lill' poor country. I will be proud soon enough, because I intend to repair some of the damage the communists did decays ago. Can't wait to finish my studies to go in LA- "take me to New York,/ I would like to see LA!/American boy, American boy ( that's a song)- well I'll be wealthy enough I'll come back in my country with capable people too help my poor country. After all, if you live and you don't do a good, generous thing, as good and generous as you can, you lived for nothing.

mimartin
07-25-2008, 09:14 AM
I am NOT proud to be an American because it required no effort on my part. Then don’t be. America does not require you to be proud of it. I think that pride comes from an actual accomplishment. I cannot be proud and respectful of those that worked hard and sacrificed to bring us the freedoms we have today? Why can’t I be proud of my great uncle that died in WWI? Don't say you're proud of yourself for something you didn't have to work for. How do you know I have not worked for it.
Be proud of those who sacrificed their lives for the state. I believe that is what I wrote: but I’m still proud and grateful to those that have fought and died to protect my freedoms even when I don’t agree with some of those freedoms. Be proud of your own accomplishments rather than simply being an American. Never said is was not proud of my own accomplishments, but since that was not the topic of the thread I thought I would stick with national pride for some reason.

I'm an American as well... why should I be proud of that?I don’t know, that is up to you. Since I am not trying to convince you that you should be proud to be an American then I don’t see the point. I was only stating that I am proud to be an American despite this country’s faults.

I don't like thinking of myself as an American. Then don’t, put your head in the sand and pretend you are not (like a majority of American's seem to do)
I don't like being a part of a war that was waged upon the whim of greedy individuals. Neither do I. When I see Americans dying and hearing the ones who caused the war saying that we should support our troops... it sickens me. I agree only I would add that when I see any humans dying needlessly it sickens me and that includes the Iraqis. I still support the troops, but I’m not telling you to. I don’t support those that ordered them to be there. Although I didn't have any influence on the war one way or another, I'm still a part of the state that waged it. This is the reason the American people have lost their power. We allow the people in Washington to tell us what is important instead of writing our representatives and tell them what is important. Hundreds of thousands of deaths(murders) resulted from the war in Iraq. I don't want to be a part of that, but I am. Agreed. I feel the quilt for allowing the war in Iraq to take place because I went against my conscience and voted for an idiot because I was more concern about my pocket book than the American people. Now I have deaths on my conscience, my pocket book is empty, and the idiot got a second term (at least I can say I was only fooled once). :(

TheExile
07-25-2008, 10:26 AM
I can sense a disturban... er... I can feel another fight is coming =/
Hope it won't be so.

Web Rider
07-25-2008, 11:20 AM
Then donít, put your head in the sand and pretend you are not (like a majority of American's seem to do)

I don't think the majority pretend not to be Americans. They just define what it means to be an American differently. Without one standard, it's easy to take a straight line and say "all these people don't fit" when really, there is no standard.

When a country is founded on dissent and the ability to speak your mind, pretty much everything goes.

mimartin
07-25-2008, 11:29 AM
I don't think the majority pretend not to be Americans. They just define what it means to be an American differently. Without one standard, it's easy to take a straight line and say "all these people don't fit" when really, there is no standard.

When a country is founded on dissent and the ability to speak your mind, pretty much everything goes.
I agree with you and that is why I used the word seem in my comment. :xp: That said, very good post and description of the lack of description of what it means to be an American.

Darth_Yuthura
07-25-2008, 12:23 PM
Odds are that I'm throwing out issues and not giving solutions or suggestions. Most of the issues I brought up are already known by those who are posting.

Pride is the feeling of pleasure or satisfaction in one’s achievements. Most people address how they have pride for the achievments of those who have sacrificed for the state. That is not pride, it’s respect or admiration. If National pride means this, then I would support the idea completely.

The issue I have is that most Americans take pride in the achievments or sacrifices of others. My conflict and hate for 'national pride' comes not from the idea... it comes from those who have certain beliefs, but don't have deeds to back them. Since I have not been in the Military, I don't have the right to criticize one who has sacrificed for this state. Many Americans supported the war in Iraq only because it didn't directly influence their own lives. If it meant having to participate in the war, themselves... how many would have supported it?

I respect those that have sacrificed for this state, but I do not take pride in something that was given to me. When I set an example for others to follow, then I take pride in that. When others are willing to take actions that I will not... I treat them with respect.

RyuuKage
07-25-2008, 12:54 PM
To be truthful, the only one of those that's mostly humanity is Advancement. It's up in the air if certain animals that are known to be highly intelligent, such as dolphins, some species of ape, and elephants, are not sentient. And just about every living thing is curious, has free will(save maybe ants and hive-minded bugs), and has fun.

if they were sentient, then they'd be able to learn how to communicate with us (and not just parroting like they do with apes who "learn" how to talk). They'd also be more likely to have more "human" (for lack of a better term) features in their general behavior.

Web Rider
07-25-2008, 03:29 PM
if they were sentient, then they'd be able to learn how to communicate with us (and not just parroting like they do with apes who "learn" how to talk). They'd also be more likely to have more "human" (for lack of a better term) features in their general behavior.

Just because a species does not build cities and roads, does not mean they are not mean they are not sentient. Dolphins exhibit many of the same things humans do, they are playful, inquisitive, social creatures that are highly intelligent.

So far, no apes have learned to speak our language. I think one learned to speak sign language. yes they were taught and arguably they are more primitive than humans, but I don't see how you can shoot that down as "parroting". They are giving a response they thought up based on the language taught to them.

Furthermore, ability to do something does not equal desire or physical capabilities. A lion may be able to understand human speech, but lack the desire or physical ability to respond. Language also, does not denote speech, otherwise you are saying mutes are not sentient. Language for certain species may be defined by very particular movements of fins, paws, tails, ears or whatever.

Additionally, your point also states that humanity is not sentient. If a part of sentience is the ability to learn the languages of other species, then humanity is not sentient, since last I checked, you cannot be taught Dog or Cat, or Lion or Dolphin, and only a handful of people claim to understand them, and have offered up no ways of teaching the rest of humanity how to communicate. Following your logic, if humans were sentient, we'd be able to learn the languages of the animals.

SW01
08-07-2008, 01:57 AM
National pride is an important thing, especially in times of crisis. Do you really think we could have rallied to fend off Nazism in the 1940s without that sense of community that national pride entails? It's just what we need now that most of the West is suffering from inflation.

I am proud to be British. I support Her Majesty The Queen wholeheartedly. I support our armed forces. I am proud of all this country has done for the world over the centuries, from the abolition of slavery, to technological advances too many to list, to being the bulwark against evil and tyranny.

With that, though, must come regret for all the wrongs that were committed. In Northern Ireland specifically, the thirty years of violence that we had to endure, the murder of police officers and civilians and constant bombings is a source of shame. But we do our nation more shame to forget it.

The binge-drinking culture disgusts me. Knife crime disturbs me. The less said of being led by Bush and Blair into an illegal war the better.

With pride in the great, must come shame in the wrong.

mur'phon
08-08-2008, 05:47 PM
National pride is an important thing, especially in times of crisis.

Luckily, a crisis tend to generate the required pride.

Do you really think we could have rallied to fend off Nazism in the 1940s without that sense of community that national pride entails?

Yes, because the mere fact that you where attacked would have brought the people together.

It's just what we need now that most of the West is suffering from inflation.

I find it hard to believe that national pride is neccesary a good thing when it comes to convincing the population that high rates and budget cuts are needed. In Norway, our second largest party (:blush2:) are using the "community" part to convince people that flooding the country with petro cash is a good idea

Darth_Yuthura
08-09-2008, 09:17 AM
Pride in itself is not exactly a good thing. It revolves around taking pleasure or satisfaction in one's one deeds. This idea is a bit literal, but it's true.

People may not realize it, but it is better to not be satisfied or to be unhappy with the way things are... if it leads to improve oneself or everyone in a nation. The very notion of pride bringing satisfaction to Americans results in the stagnation or progress.

A say to forget national pride altogether and embrace the idea that dissatisfaction is much better than was causes stagnation. Too often do Americans talk about the sacrifices of their ancestors... why not the sacrifices one is willing to make to become a better individual. Society is not a single identity, but the culmination of many individuals. Don't look to your society to determine whether or not you should be prideful. Don't look to your accomplishments... look at what else you are capable of achieving and work for it instead.

veridianblade
09-03-2008, 07:36 AM
What do you have to say about pride in your nationality?

If you show a bit of pride in being British you are automatically labelled a British National Party or National Front member.

It is actually against the law in this country to fly the Union Jack outside your house in case you "offend" any minorities, who most of the time don't even care!

Britain has become a state where you cannot do anything as it might cause offence and I for one am sick of it!

Astor
09-03-2008, 08:14 AM
If you show a bit of pride in being British you are automatically labelled a British National Party or National Front member.

I'm proud of being British, yet i'm not a member of the National Front or the BNP. The National Front barely exists anyway.

It is actually against the law in this country to fly the Union Jack outside your house in case you "offend" any minorities, who most of the time don't even care!

Firstly, the Union Jack is the Naval Ensign. It's flag, thank you.

It is not against the law to fly the Union Flag in this country. Where did you get that idea from? I know several people who fly our flag, and if it were illegal the Government would be duty-bound to obey their own laws regarding it.

If it illegal, someone had also better inform Her Majesty.

Britain has become a state where you cannot do anything as it might cause offence and I for one am sick of it!

While i'm sorry you feel that way, it's really not as bad as you're making out.

Balderdash
09-03-2008, 08:30 AM
Political correctness is annoying, but the kind of people that complain about it all the time are worse (that's not to say that you're one of them).

If I actually was proud of being British, I still wouldn't want to fly the flag because frankly it really doesn't seem a very British thing to do. In Britain if you actually care about whether or not you should be putting a flag in front of your house... chances are, you are a nationalist. And I don't think it really is against the law to do so. Not sure who told you that.

We're not Americans; we don't really have those smiling picket fence patriots that the US supposedly has. You know, the kind that you see on TV all the time.

veridianblade
09-03-2008, 08:36 AM
Firstly, the Union Jack is the Naval Ensign. It's flag, thank you.

That is the pre-1801 definition.
I'm not saying go out and fly it, I'm saying we should have the right to do it without being told to take it down.

It is not against the law to fly the Union Flag in this country. Where did you get that idea from? I know several people who fly our flag, and if it were illegal the Government would be duty-bound to obey their own laws regarding it.

I give, I am going a bit far saying it is illegal, but local councils will ask for it to be taken down in the interests of not offending foreigners, believe me I've known councillors to resign over this.

I'm proud of Britain, all I'm trying to say is a number of people are trying to dumb it down.

For example, they are trying to say that school history lessons should play down showing kids the glory of British history and start concentrating on the worse parts.

We're going to end up with a country that knows all about the slave trade yet nothing about Britains part in the abolition.

Astor
09-03-2008, 08:47 AM
If I actually was proud of being British, I still wouldn't want to fly the flag because frankly it really doesn't seem a very British thing to do. In Britain if you actually care about whether or not you should be putting a flag in front of your house... chances are, you are a nationalist.

The problem is defining what 'Britishness' is. It's not as clear as with other countries. And a lot of people seem to be ashamed of being British, which is something I don't understand. Germans are proud of being German, and the French are proud of being French, after all.

But i'm not a nationalist. Monarchist, maybe, but not a Daily Mail reader. :lol:

That is the pre-1801 definition

Actually, this is:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Union_flag_1606_%28Kings_Colors%29.svg/180px-Union_flag_1606_%28Kings_Colors%29.svg.png

I give, I am going a bit far saying it is illegal, but local councils will ask for it to be taken down in the interests of not offending foreigners, believe me I've known councillors to resign over this.

Those cases are extreme at best. Most foreigners accept that it is the national flag, and leave it be.

For example, they are trying to say that school history lessons should play down showing kids the glory of British history and start concentrating on the worse parts.

The problem with that is that 'glory' is often subjective, and therefore difficult to define. What could be glory to one person might be terrible to another.

Ray Jones
09-03-2008, 08:54 AM
There already is a thread on national pride/patriotism, only a couple of threads down the page, here (http://lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=190432).

Threads merged. ~tk102

Balderdash
09-03-2008, 09:03 AM
The problem is defining what 'Britishness' is. It's not as clear as with other countries. And a lot of people seem to be ashamed of being British, which is something I don't understand. Germans are proud of being German, and the French are proud of being French, after all.
I imagine its because of our god-awful terrible cuisine.

But i'm not a nationalist. Monarchist, maybe, but not a Daily Mail reader. :lol:
That's just having good sense. :xp:

veridianblade
09-03-2008, 09:15 AM
I imagine its because of our god-awful terrible cuisine.


Hey now, I like a nice artery clogging breakfast. :wornout:

SW01
09-08-2008, 11:47 AM
I agree that there seems to be the sense that one must be ashamed of being British. I, personally, am proud of the fact.

On the flag, if you think it's bad in England, Scotland or Wales it's ten times worse here. And, of course, foreigners often fail to recognise the Union Flag as NI's banner. This sickens me.

We have no worse an Imperial history than any other power - in fact parts of our history are infinitely more worthy of praise.

And I join Astor_Kaine in saying this: I am no nationalist, BNP or otherwise, yet I am still proud to be British.

EDIT: And if you want a nice artery-clogging breakfast, you can't beat an Ulster Fry!:lol:

Corinthian
09-08-2008, 02:04 PM
What's all this hate against Nationalism about?

SW01
09-08-2008, 02:14 PM
What's all this hate against Nationalism about?

British Nationalism (as in the case of the British Nationalist Party) is generally perceived as only a few steps away from facism. Also, most definitions entail the abolition of the monarchy, something the majority of us don't take very kindly to.

For Scotland (SNP), Wales (Plaid Cymru) and Northern Ireland (SDLP), nationalist groups are effectively separatist, they wish the respective countries to stand alone, independent of the United Kingdom. Again, the monarchists and 'British' in those areas don't like this idea.

Corinthian
09-08-2008, 02:34 PM
Ah, the corruption of words. I thought you were referring to the concept and the practice of Nationalism, not as in the Nationalist Socialists.

True_Avery
09-08-2008, 02:41 PM
Ah, the corruption of words. I thought you were referring to the concept and the practice of Nationalism, not as in the Nationalist Socialists.
I think (correct me if I'm wrong) this thread is more about social labels than Nationalism itself. The categories people get placed in depending on how they see their country instead of the practice of Nationalism itself.

Tommycat
09-09-2008, 09:44 PM
National pride is a good thing. One should be proud of their origins. It is part of what makes us the person we are today. Even if you disagree with some of the national policies you should be proud of the good that is done. We(the US) reach out and help struggling countries(not just war). We offer aid to countries that hate us, not because we want something, but because we feel that it is our duty to help. Sure we can be jerks at times. But we do offer the help. We aren't the only country to do this either.

See, I have pride in being Japanese because of my heritage. There are a lot of wonderful things that my ancestors did(and a few bad things too), but that helped shape me into who I am today. Honor, respect, and loyalty were taught to me by my mother. She was taught those things by her parents and so on.

I grew up in Texas. So I have pride in my home state for the lessons I learned from the people of Texas. Texans are the kind of people that will generally stop to help you out. When I had a breakdown in Texas, people would stop to help out. That stuck with me. So I in turn help others out with their vehicles.

I am also a citizen of the US. I served the country in the armed forces. I saw how we trained on rescuing people from other countries(operation Sorbet Royalle). How we intentionally designed our DSRV to be able to mate to other countries' submarines. I take pride in how we thought not only of ourselves, but them as well. Look how we reacted to the Kursk incident. We had our DSRV waiting on a runway to be on site within a day. And the Russians were the ones who turned us down.

So be proud of your origins. It helped to shape who you are today.

Nationalism can be dangerous though. When taken to the extreme it can lead to not questioning the government. THAT is very dangerous.