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View Full Version : Atris as Traya: Public Input


Pikmin
08-04-2008, 04:55 PM
Hello, guys!

I'm getting to the point where I can work on having Atris fall fully to the Dark Side. But I need your input on one conditional that needs to be met! If you play as a lightside Jedi, you will get the chance to redeem Kreia, but how is where you come in. I need your ideas on how to bring about her redemption. Once a certain amount of acceptable ideas are submitted a poll will be added to the thread so that you can choose what I implement.

Ideas Submitted:
Zerimar's Idea: http://lucasforums.com/showpost.php?p=2504744&postcount=2
Zerimar's 2nd Idea: http://lucasforums.com/showpost.php?p=2506006&postcount=21
nine.roses' Idea: http://lucasforums.com/showpost.php?p=2505642&postcount=14
Logan23's Idea: http://lucasforums.com/showpost.php?p=2506166&postcount=22
Logan23's 2nd Idea:http://lucasforums.com/showpost.php?p=2506220&postcount=24
zybl2's Idea: http://lucasforums.com/showpost.php?p=2506225&postcount=25

Zerimar Nyliram
08-04-2008, 06:21 PM
I'd say a dialogue choice reminding Kreia of what her teachings have unleashed on the galaxy, namely Revan and the new Sith. I say this because she obviously seems to despise the Sith of that era, believing them to be nothing better than butchers (hence the famous "true Sith" speech). I'd say that perhaps a dialogue tree to make Kreia come to embrace the light side (or at least reject the dark side as I can't see Kreia fully embracing the moral life of a Jedi) on account of what she helped bring about (the Sith) would be the most logical way to go from a character-driven point of view.

Basically, make it all about Revan.

Pikmin
08-04-2008, 06:27 PM
That sounds like a very good idea. You could access the dialog after you have almost full influence and have learned everything She, T3-m4, Hk-47 and Canderous can tell you about Revan. I'll add that to the list and if no one else comes up with a good idea, I'll start writing the dialog.

EnderWiggin
08-04-2008, 09:00 PM
Sounds very good to me.

Do eeeet!

_EW_

Hmm. The merging of the poll makes this post look stupid.

Revan 411
08-04-2008, 09:06 PM
Dialogue, choice does sound like the best option, and I agree with it as well.

Da_Man_2423
08-04-2008, 09:16 PM
I tend to agree, a dialogue choice seems to be the best. There are countless other times where dialogue is used to redeem others, so it seems the most KotOR-ish, in my opinion.

Arátoeldar
08-04-2008, 10:40 PM
The dialog choice is a very good idea. When Obi Wan was trying to redeem Anakin on Mustafar. He did it through dialog.

Gargoyle King
08-05-2008, 04:25 AM
That sounds like a very good idea. You could access the dialog after you have almost full influence and have learned everything She, T3-m4, Hk-47 and Canderous can tell you about Revan. I'll add that to the list and if no one else comes up with a good idea, I'll start writing the dialog.I'll take it you'll have to splice dialogue to get new VO lines for Kreia, and in that case you'll have to be quite creative with the dialogue. Or write the lines and ask other people to splice for you, a very good example would be Papership - some of the spliced dialogue in her Carth's Rescue mod is just simply awesome. IMO you should go with this idea Pikmin. I think it fits in well with Kreia's default dialogue in the game and i believe will be the most "believable" for Kreia's redemption. :)

Pikmin
08-05-2008, 08:20 AM
Yeah, it does seem the most likley to happen.

Exile007
08-06-2008, 12:09 AM
The dialog option seems pretty good, although I have an addon supposedely. :)

Perhaps in order for that dialog option to be open you must have a required amount of influence with Kreia. If you get lots of influence with Kreia there isn't much you can do with it, so maybe this could be the thing you use influence for. :D

Gargoyle King
08-06-2008, 05:28 AM
The dialog option seems pretty good, although I have an addon supposedely. :)

Perhaps in order for that dialog option to be open you must have a required amount of influence with Kreia. If you get lots of influence with Kreia there isn't much you can do with it, so maybe this could be the thing you use influence for. :DHey I Like This Idea! :)
What do you think Pikmin?

Q
08-06-2008, 06:03 AM
I agree that an influence check is a must for proper roleplay in this situation.

Pikmin
08-06-2008, 08:28 AM
That is assuredly required, otherwise she wouldn't listen to you.

nine.roses
08-06-2008, 03:06 PM
My idea is that we make do with the lines we have in the dialogue files, unspliced (which I believe would be easier - though the splicing of one or two lines isn't neccessarily off the books). I've been browsing and documenting dialogue options for Atris and Kreia which could be put back together to make suitable dialogues.

I'm wondering how far you want to go with redeeming Kreia to the light side; and whether you want her alive...

The basics of my idea is this: the storyline is as usuak up until the meeting between Kreia and Atris on Telos, which will occur before the Battle of Telos IV - though for the sake of using a few sound files from Kreia and the flow of the storyline, your return to the Telos academy will occur after the Battle of Telos IV.

I have two suggestions for what will follow.

In the first, Kreia persuades Atris to give in to the dark side (as she will later explain to the exile: "She had to be turned, half-circle, to face herself and see what she had become."). Kreia manages to convince Atris to take her mantle as Darth Traya ("There must always be a Darth Traya") so she can finally leave the ways of the Sith, as she has completed her plan to destroy those who had betrayed her using the greatest weapon against Force users in existence: the Exile (never mind that "hatred of the Force"... I never really understood or liked that scenario much). However, as she completes Atris's fall, in a moment of lucidity the former Jedi turns and strikes Kreia with her lightsaber, severing her remaining hand and severely wounding her: for such is the way of the Sith. Kreia Force Pushes Atris away into the council room, and Atris leaves her be. This final betrayal was exactly what Kreia was expecting, though she resolves to stay alive until she is sure that the Exile has survived. Atris leaves Kreia wounded and dying in the academy and immediately departs for Malachor with her newly corrupted handmaidens (who will take up places in the Malachor academy), where she is confident that she will at last garner the power to make war as she had so often craved ("Once, I was a historian, the chronicler of the Jedi. When both wars passed me by, I was determined that I would not forsake battle again.").

Kreia manages to hang on to life until the battle in the skies of Telos is over, though when you reach her, broken and kneeling on the ramp to Atris's chambers, she is clearly about to die. Through some nice "assumptions" on the part of Exile, the player's speech options will fill in what actually happened to Kreia, and how the Exile was not harmed despite their link ("You shielded me from it, didn't you? You could have instead used your power to heal yourself, yet you chose to focus it all on me alone... do you really love me so much, Kreia?" "I would have killed the galaxy to preserve you..." etc. See? ;)). Kreia's most tender lines are presented here: how she finds the Exile "beautiful" etcetera. She also ties the loose ends up, explaining that she indeed used the Exile in her plans. There is a measure of regret, but finally you assure her of your faith in her and redeem her (this line in particular may be useful: "Salvation is a relative thing... but as you understand it, yes."). She then dies happy, becoming one with the Force (a Force Ghost perhaps, as she died at a moment of great self-sacrifice?) and though Kreia suggested otherwise, you choose to go on to face Atris at Malachor.

The alternative is much the same, but instead of trying to turn Atris to the dark side she actually tries to stop her from falling (as a Gray Jedi, whyever not? Again, there are some great voice files which would prove useful...) but fails and is, again, struck down by Atris's lightsaber (though this time, is slightly more surprised). Kreia's dialogue choices will be slightly different when she encounters the Exile, but the remainder of the game will be otherwise much the same.

I'm fairly happy with either, but I prefer the first, as I feel it fits the best with Kreia's character and the storyline. It would also be easy to implement, thanks to the multitude of sound files which could fit perfectly.

Should my suggestion be successful (or even if it isn't!), I could help by sending you a list of the text of the sound files I've dredged up along with the exact sound file names for each to expediate the execution of your mod. :)

Otherwise, if you wish, I could cobble together the dialogue text myself. Though that would, of course, take away all of your fun...

zbyl2
08-06-2008, 04:06 PM
I have two suggestions for what will follow. [...]
If I can say something, I very like that first idea.

Pikmin
08-06-2008, 04:42 PM
So do I. I could actually implement both, with gender as the conditional. So send me the lists of dialog. Also what would be helpful is if you could let me know what dialog lines would work for the intial convo which 'redeems' Kreia. Would you go visit the Academy before or after the Nihilus' confrontation?

nine.roses
08-06-2008, 05:27 PM
Gender? I don't think such actions would really hinge on your character's gender. Influence maybe. The first scenario could occur with with lower influence over Kreia, the second with higher influence.

The visit to the academy would be after your encounter with Nihilus. It keeps a nice clean run to the end, and your focus is not diverted elsewhere. It also give Kreia's line about "destroying her enemies" a bit more weight.

I'll get the list to you, along with a basic knockup of the convo which you can mix and match as you choose... though I'll probably wait until your poll has decided whose idea gets to be implemented.

Pikmin
08-06-2008, 05:31 PM
Well your idea kinda adds to Zerimar's idea. Have a convo about Revan that "redeems' Kreia. Then your ideas take place.

nine.roses
08-06-2008, 05:39 PM
Yeaaah, but she can't exactly be redeemed then convince Atris to become a Sith. It just doesn't follow. I don't truly think a character such as hers, with such brooding and dark lines such as hers, can realistically present a face of redemption until her last few lines of dialogue. Because, let's face it, there are only a few lines of dialogue with her saying anything remotely pleasant at all.

Pikmin
08-06-2008, 05:52 PM
Not exactly redemption, but convincing her to throw away HER connection to the dark side. That's why I always said "redemption", with quotes. It really is more of a storyline-ish way to activate Atris' fall, while keeping it optional so nothing is missed from TSLRP's restoration.

Zerimar Nyliram
08-07-2008, 05:38 AM
Or... How about if she demands that you cut her off from the Force, like the Jedi Council was about to do to you, not trusting herself with it, after she teaches you how to do so? I think that would be a very good move story-wise, as long as you don't mind losing her as a Force-using party member. (But it's only Malachor V after that anyway, so there's really no use for her at that point as you don't get to choose your party members.)

logan23
08-07-2008, 01:12 PM
I don't know how much modding you want to do. Here is my idea.......:)

You would have to create a new cut scene with Kreia and Atris. There could be a new cutscene after Kreia and Atris talk about falling. In the scene you learn about the connection between Kreia and Atris. Atris’s pride is her fall. Atris tells Kreia she will lead the Jedi into a new era. Kreia in her usual encrypted manner tells her that she can not lead the new Jedi. “You have tasted the Dark side through the sith holcrons.” The conversation gets more heated as Atris’s temper and pride increases her anger and her path down the darkside of the force. Atris ignites her light saber and the duel starts. The battle continues until Kreia senses the Exile’s arrival. At that moment Atris takes advantage of the moment and strikes down Kreia. Kreia’s weakness is for the love of the Exile and what he/she represents. Kreia lies on the floor died. Atris feels a burst of darkside energy from Kreia fuses with Atris. Atris takes off to MalachorV. As Atris comes down the stairs she faces Brianna. Brianna duels Atris and losses to her.

The Exile arrives to find Brianna injured but alive. Next the Exile walks into the room where Kreia lays.
Kreia tells you, she came here to end the Jedi old teachings. After the event on Dantooine, she knew that the old masters had to be removed from power so a new generation of Jedi….like the ones that follow the Exile now. Kreia will tell you the future and the truth that your followers are the next generation of force sensitive….next Jedi. Then Kreia will tell you where Atris has gone. MalachorV is where you will face her. Do not under estimate her power on a planet of dark energy. Kreia will thank you for saving her. You are her most cherished student. Then Kreia dies. You will either embrace your anger for vengeance or the idea that the Sith must be stopped.

You then head to MalachorV to face Atris in her new Sith robes. There is a scene where Darth Traya (Atris) and Sion talking. She tells him what she has done, what he couldn’t. When Sion’s anger increases, Atris reminds Sion that the Exile will be here soon. Together they can rid the galaxy of the Jedi. Atris will make an expression on how Kreia never loved Sion and or his ability. Sion will then embrace Atris as Darth Traya.

Logan

Pikmin
08-07-2008, 01:27 PM
I do want to point out that if Atris becomes Traya, Nihilus kills Sion. Otherwise great Idea.

logan23
08-07-2008, 03:16 PM
With Nihilus killing Sion, that makes things easier but who will you fight in his absence on MalachorV or will it go right to The last battle.

To save time from spicing or creating new VO dialogue, you can create a scene by having the PC voice the scene: Ex.

PC talks to Kreia as she is dieing. Use the VO’s that can be used to create the scene. Then for final shot show the exile kneeing over Kreia’s body as the camera looks from above them. When the PC leaves the chambers and meets Brianna (male PC) or Disciple/Atton (female PC). Use their VO of the party member asking “what happened?”
Then the PC can tell your party member what happen. Tell everything that Kreia told you including information that was not voiced in the Kreia/PC scene. This will save a lot of time in splicing VOs plus you can add in the PC’s view on Kreia by giving the PC options to choose on their conversation thread. This can in the end earn you dark side or light side points depending on what you said to your party member about Kreia.


Logan

zbyl2
08-07-2008, 03:26 PM
I do want to point out that if Atris becomes Traya, Nihilus kills Sion. Otherwise great Idea.
Nihilus kill Sion? Can't Sion die later? If you do that, then it'll not possible to see great stuff like Atton vs Sion.
Sion can die later... For example, you can add scene our party member vs Atris (there is aready recorded VO for this), and after that scene Atris fight Sion. And kill Sion. But this your mod, you can just ignore me:D

Pikmin
08-09-2008, 12:12 PM
I thought about having Sion and Atris fight, and when it comes closer towards that choice I might actually have it.

A mod can close this now.

ChAiNz.2da
08-09-2008, 12:25 PM
Merged the poll with this thread to make it easier. I also fixed the poll links :) - Cz

Pikmin
08-09-2008, 04:38 PM
Thanks.

I vote for a combination of logan23's first idea, Zerimar Nyliram's first idea, and nine.roses' idea.

EnderWiggin
08-09-2008, 10:42 PM
Thanks.

I vote for a combination of logan23's first idea, Zerimar Nyliram's first idea, and nine.roses' idea.

If that's the set of ideas you like best, then go for it. Modding should be for yourself first, and for the community second ;)

_EW_

Salzella
08-10-2008, 07:20 AM
I don't think Kreia should be redeemed: if you're on Korriban and you go the tomb of Ajunta Pall and follow the dialogue in a certain way, she says something about believing redemption is something the weak do, to turn away from what they truly are. Or that's the gist of it anyway. Possibly? Mind you, since you already seem to have chosen, this post is a bit pointless, but I'll throw it out there anyway :xp:

Emperor Devon
08-10-2008, 08:07 AM
I'm honestly not sure how you could go about 'redeeming' Kreia. The concept of redemption is a complete anathema to everything her character stands for. That she hates the Force aside, she's still not a very nice woman.

(Plot exposition ahead.) On the flip side, however, Kreia (for this mod, thankfully) could care less about remaining consistent with her established character. She's as much a hypocrite as the Jedi Masters, using the Force so she can teach people to despise it and manipulating others so they can be free of manipulation at the hands of the Force. Her character is full of contradictions, but it's part of what makes her so deep. Everything she does in the game, she does to make the exile stronger. To her, the exile is a living example of the most fundamental part of her teachings: That life is possible without the Force.

It's why she's willing to go out of her way (even to the point of practicing against what she preaches) to make the exile stronger, because the stronger he becomes the more he proves Kreia's teachings right. It's very petty of her to seek an external affirmation of her beliefs, yes, but it's very human.

In any case: if Atris becoming Traya would strengthen the exile, Kreia would go out of her way to make it happen. I'm at a loss as to how it would, though. But if anyone can guess how, it would be totally consistent with the rest of Kreia's character. Which I think any mod involving Kreia should try to do.

Atris becoming Traya would be easy, though. She's already full of so much anger towards the exile. All it would take is a little push from him to send her completely over the brink.

JBomber499
08-10-2008, 09:17 AM
I chose Lorgan's second idea..

It makes the most sense, and I always wanted Nihilus to kill Sion in the Videos on YT

Pikmin
08-10-2008, 03:00 PM
I'm honestly not sure how you could go about 'redeeming' Kreia. The concept of redemption is a complete anathema to everything her character stands for. That she hates the Force aside, she's still not a very nice woman.

(Plot exposition ahead.) On the flip side, however, Kreia (for this mod, thankfully) could care less about remaining consistent with her established character. She's as much a hypocrite as the Jedi Masters, using the Force so she can teach people to despise it and manipulating others so they can be free of manipulation at the hands of the Force. Her character is full of contradictions, but it's part of what makes her so deep. Everything she does in the game, she does to make the exile stronger. To her, the exile is a living example of the most fundamental part of her teachings: That life is possible without the Force.

It's why she's willing to go out of her way (even to the point of practicing against what she preaches) to make the exile stronger, because the stronger he becomes the more he proves Kreia's teachings right. It's very petty of her to seek an external affirmation of her beliefs, yes, but it's very human.

In any case: if Atris becoming Traya would strengthen the exile, Kreia would go out of her way to make it happen. I'm at a loss as to how it would, though. But if anyone can guess how, it would be totally consistent with the rest of Kreia's character. Which I think any mod involving Kreia should try to do.

Atris becoming Traya would be easy, though. She's already full of so much anger towards the exile. All it would take is a little push from him to send her completely over the brink.


I see what you are saying, and there are used/unused voice files in the game that involve Kreia saying Atris taking over the mantle of Traya was required to finish the players training. (It strengthens the character so that she becomes ready for war again, ready to abandon the republic to die, ready to take Kreia and follow Revan's path. taken from a cut Kreia line that would take place after Atris is killed on Malachor V.)



Kreia being "redeemed" is really only a figure of speech, it is more of a way to activate Atris' fall. I thought about having it happen auto-magicly if you were male, but then you don't get the stuff that happens if Kreia was Traya for a male player. So I figured a way to get Kreia to push Atris fully into her pit of doom was required.

I could add a new dialog with Kreia about Atris that would become available if you found out everything about Atris that is possible. Then when Kreia says the Jedi await you on Dantoine, you could ask if Atris will be there with them. That would end up causing Kreia to tell Atris the exile never loved her, and went to war thinking it would weaken the bond that had been created between them.

The gist of my post is Kreia doesn't get "redeemed".

My main problem is what to do to get Kreia to push Atris into becoming Traya. I know it will happen only if the player is male, but what causes her to give up being Traya is confusing.

Pikmin
08-12-2008, 02:02 PM
A mod can end the poll now.

done :) - Cz