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jonathan7
08-07-2008, 08:43 AM
In recent weeks and months I think there has been a lot more sniping, flaming and a lack of respect shown by each of us for one another in Kavars; I think we could all do with chilling out a little and re-establishing some ground rules.

I am as many may be aware am a big proponent of freedom of speech; I come from the John Stuart Mill line of thinking that an individual should be allowed freedom of speech and liberty - this should only be taken away when they do an action that causes harm to another. Mill, recommended that minorities with even evil or stupid opinions should be allowed to express what they think, so they could be shown up for what they are.

I think everyone needs to remember that there is a human being on the other end of a forum posts; and that even when they are irritating us with what we think is stupidity; all of us are subject to our own biases and faux-pas. (I also think that we all carry out hurts, and it is perhaps a responsibility of all of us not to causes these to grow in others).

This is at its base a post, saying lets chill and be nice - sometimes I think Kavars has become too serious, and while it is for discussion of serious topics, lets promote respect for one another even, if we strongly disagree with another's thread/post.

I think we could all do with putting previous grievances behind, and not wield an axe towards certain members on our 'hit-lists' - I think this derails threads, and makes the unnecessarily personal. So in the interest of keeping discussions interesting, I think maintaining civility towards one another actually helps in the flow of ideas.

In a letter to M. le Riche Voltaire once famously wrote - "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write".

And so I can be cryptic, my favourite poet Rabindranath Tagore remarked; "Emancipation from the bondage of the soil is no freedom for the tree".

Peace all, I hope you have a good day :)

True_Avery
08-07-2008, 10:01 AM
I'd mostly agree, but...

If we agreed to disagree then we wouldn't have Kavars in the first place.

Kavars isn't really too serious. Life is too serious. Go tell life to stop being stuck up and we might get somewhere.

But yeah, I've been trying to control myself better lately.

jonathan7
08-07-2008, 10:04 AM
I'd mostly agree, but...

If we agreed to disagree then we wouldn't have Kavars in the first place.

I wasn't intending for the post to come across as such; we should defiantly debate - just try to avoid 'personalness' coming in, if you know what I mean. :)

Kavars isn't really too serious. Life is too serious. Go tell life to stop being stuck up and we might get somewhere.

I've tryed :xp:

People seem to enjoy blowing each other up though :|

True_Avery
08-07-2008, 10:08 AM
I wasn't intending for the post to come across as such; we should defiantly debate - just try to avoid 'personalness' coming in, if you know what I mean. :)
Yeah, I get what you mean.

When I get snippy with someone, I'm more inclined to be jabbing the belief instead of the person. Although technically they are the same thing, it at least keeps personal issues with the person out of the argument on my side. If I feel I've gotten too personal, I PM them an apology later.

Debates can get interesting to hot. A personal vendetta can get nasty and is, for the most part, completely pointless.

I've tryed :xp:

People seem to enjoy blowing each other up though :|
And that probably wont change any time soon.

Arcesious
08-07-2008, 10:21 AM
Well, I'm all for people being equal to eachother on this forum, but debating can be a fun thing if you let it be. I enjoy the 'intensity' whenever a good debate comes along. To snipe down someone else's opinion with a 'clever' remark is kind of fun to do. Even my doing that, I do not consider anyone any less a person.

Litofsky
08-07-2008, 11:26 AM
Kavar's is a fun place, to be sure, but not when we use it to bash another person. That's for Ahto. :xp:

Either way, respecting the other person is a great way to start, and we should all try and see the argument from the other person's side. ;)

Good thread, Jon. Maybe this is the start to forum-wide understanding?


...Or not. :p

Ray Jones
08-07-2008, 01:42 PM
I blame violent media and games. :carms:

EnderWiggin
08-07-2008, 10:05 PM
I come from the John Stuart Mill line of thinking that an individual should be allowed freedom of speech and liberty - this should only be taken away when they do an action that causes harm to another. Mill, recommended that minorities with even evil or stupid opinions should be allowed to express what they think, so they could be shown up for what they are.


...are you a rule utilitarian? Just wondering :D

In a letter to M. le Riche Voltaire once famously wrote - "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write".

Good quote - I remember a few years back the local public high school put it on the announcement board for people to see when they passed by.

They got a complaint from a community member demanding it be taken down :xp:

_EW_

El Sitherino
08-07-2008, 10:20 PM
Sticks must be removed from asses.

Det. Bart Lasiter
08-07-2008, 10:40 PM
Life is too serious.prove it :o

El Sitherino
08-07-2008, 10:43 PM
Actually, I think people need to take this place a little less serious. No sense getting all riled up just because someone else says something.

Rev7
08-08-2008, 01:56 AM
<snip>
I totally agree. I myself know that intense debates are awesome, and I love them, but we all should slow down and sometimes put ourselves in each other's shoes. Yes, the shoe doesn't always fit, but we should still try.

Actually, I think people need to take this place a little less serious. No sense getting all riled up just because someone else says something.
QFE.

Nedak
08-08-2008, 02:05 AM
I personally wouldn't care if someone flamed me, but if other individuals are being severely bothered by the flaming that is happening then it should stop.

and then maybe a group hug.

Darth_Yuthura
08-08-2008, 02:17 AM
Kavar's is a fun place, to be sure, but not when we use it to bash another person. That's for Ahto. :xp:

Either way, respecting the other person is a great way to start, and we should all try and see the argument from the other person's side. ;)

Good thread, Jon. Maybe this is the start to forum-wide understanding?


...Or not. :p

What about those that absolutely refuse to see things your way? I try to respect others' opinions, but when they dump sand into the gears of a reasonable argument... not creating a better one... they should know they're not helping; they're just in the way.

I try not to be biassed, but if someone injects an opinion that is backed by lies or biassed beliefs themselves... I certainly don't want them posting it and calling it fact. It just means more effort for those that know what they're talking about. Saying 'yes it is.' or 'no it isn't' should not be construed as an enrichment to an argument.

This may be biassed in itself, but I don't want people to inject something that is not based on anything factual. I don't want people's opinions to be stated more than once, or we are just doing Monty Python's 'argument clinic' routine.

jonathan7
08-08-2008, 07:33 AM
What about those that absolutely refuse to see things your way? I try to respect others' opinions, but when they dump sand into the gears of a reasonable argument... not creating a better one... they should know they're not helping; they're just in the way.

I try not to be biassed, but if someone injects an opinion that is backed by lies or biassed beliefs themselves... I certainly don't want them posting it and calling it fact. It just means more effort for those that know what they're talking about. Saying 'yes it is.' or 'no it isn't' should not be construed as an enrichment to an argument.

This may be biassed in itself, but I don't want people to inject something that is not based on anything factual. I don't want people's opinions to be stated more than once, or we are just doing Monty Python's 'argument clinic' routine.

Does it not strike you that there are a lot of 'I's in the above? :xp:

Do un-too others as you would want done to yourself. The statement isn't treat others nicely until they annoy you ;), then treat them as they have treated you back - that only leads to pointless escalation. I often find if you treat people in a way they don't deserve (for instance, if someone is very horrible, and your very kind back) they quickly change the way they act.

Finally; Why do things always need to be backed up by fact? What is a fact? And what is truth? The above strikes me as a very scientific way of thinking, but human existence and experience cannot be explained by science alone. Can science explain why a painting is beautiful? Can science explain why you love some biological meat-bags more than others? :)

Lucas Forums, should be a fun, safe and interesting place to post - but it does not exist to serve solely one person - in any community there will be things you like and dislike, but co-operation is the watch word.

Besides; comprehension is not a pre-requisite of co-operation.

EnderWiggin
08-08-2008, 12:37 PM
I often find if you treat people in a way they don't deserve (for instance, if someone is very horrible, and your very kind back) they quickly change the way they act. are banned.



Fix't. That's the real reason to be kind to jerks.

_EW_

Darth_Yuthura
08-08-2008, 12:54 PM
Fix't. That's the real reason to be kind to jerks.

_EW_

I don't like arguments where people just say their opinions w/out reason to back them. I would imagine that most people would also prefer that... but that is in itself not backed by anything.

I already stated my opinion and am explaining why I think that. I frequently encounter verbal arguments on serious topics where people just say something that either is just off the topic or escalates because they won't change their opinion... no matter what. These people will be present and I believe that they should be respectfully dismissed the first time, but if they keep acting, they should be told more directly to stop.

jonathan7
08-08-2008, 12:57 PM
I don't like arguments where people just say their opinions w/out reason to back them. I would imagine that most people would also prefer that... but that is in itself not backed by anything.

I already stated my opinion and am explaining why I think that. I frequently encounter verbal arguments on serious topics where people just say something that either is just off the topic or escalates because they won't change their opinion... no matter what. These people will be present and I believe that they should be respectfully dismissed the first time, but if they keep acting, they should be told more directly to stop.

I would point to two things;

a) As I have said before, if someone has made their mind up on non-logical grounds, logic will have no impact on their reasoning.

b) You should just report a post if it is off-topic/flamey and let the mods deal with, better to do that, than post again escalate things, IMHO :)

Darth_Yuthura
08-08-2008, 01:12 PM
I would point to two things;

a) As I have said before, if someone has made their mind up on non-logical grounds, logic will have no impact on their reasoning.

b) You should just report a post if it is off-topic/flamey and let the mods deal with, better to do that, than post again escalate things, IMHO :)

You dirty Bas...! Oh I get what you mean. Shift the burden to another... very astute.

Thanks.

mimartin
08-08-2008, 02:26 PM
I would point to two things;

a) As I have said before, if someone has made their mind up on non-logical grounds, logic will have no impact on their reasoning.

b) You should just report a post if it is off-topic/flamey and let the mods deal with, better to do that, than post again escalate things, IMHO :)

c) Add the offensive party to your Ignore List.

I haven’t really seen where this is much of an issue and when it has came up it has been handled by the Moderators and Administrators both quickly and fairly, IMO. (Excuse me I need to wipe this sudden brownness from my nose). Personally, I believe respect is something that should be earned. I also believe the Administrators and the moderators have earned that respect by volunteering to keep this place up and running and making it a friendly place to spend a little time. By getting involved in flaming altercations we are making their job harder and disrespecting the time they have given. (what is that smell?)

My best advice is to think before you post. If you are mad or upset wait before you decide to post. Chances are the offensive post will be gone before you calm down enough to post your reply.

If anyone is offended by one of my post, please PM, because I assure you all that was never my intention.

Achilles
09-10-2008, 05:21 PM
This thread offends me.

Or it amuses me. I can't tell.

Mimartin has it right: true respect has to be earned. However that doesn't mean that people should not behave respectfully toward one another. The problem, as I see it, is that we are quick to wag our fingers at some forms of disrespect (real or imagined) but completely disregard others. For example, it's okay to lie, but it's not okay to point out when someone is lying. I'm all about the tree-hugging and the kumbaya and the hey hey hey but I think we have, first and foremost, an obligation (that's right, a duty) to intellectual rigor. Yes, the law of the land is that it must all be "friendly", but let's all make sure that we agree that no one is being "friendly" when they lie (just ask Kant).

Arcesious
09-10-2008, 05:31 PM
I think I use my sniper rifle far too often. Anyways, moderators (this post is not sarcastic) feel free to tell me to cool me heels when and if I use it. I admittedly have a bad habit of it, one I still have not broken; so I want you to correct me about that when I do...

I'm kind of like (this is an analogy) the pyro who likes water more than fire but can't stop lighting matches.

jonathan7
09-10-2008, 06:05 PM
This thread offends me.

Or it amuses me. I can't tell.

:xp: Ok, why?

Mimartin has it right: true respect has to be earned.

I both agree and disagree. Depends on the respect referred to - as you state below and I was more meaning; behaving respectfully to one another, than neccasarily respecting the person conversing/debating with. :)

However that doesn't mean that people should not behave respectfully toward one another. The problem, as I see it, is that we are quick to wag our fingers at some forms of disrespect (real or imagined) but completely disregard others.For example, it's okay to lie, but it's not okay to point out when someone is lying. I'm all about the tree-hugging and the kumbaya and the hey hey hey but I think we have, first and foremost, an obligation (that's right, a duty) to intellectual rigor. Yes, the law of the land is that it must all be "friendly", but let's all make sure that we agree that no one is being "friendly" when they lie (just ask Kant).

I think calling someone a liar (even if true), I don't think is helpful and could turn up the heat within a discussion. Would it not be a better idea to write "I think you are incorrect because etc"? The former comes off as a personal attack, while the latter doesn't seem personal. It just makes things easier, and I would be personally be very grateful as it would make my life a little easier, as it may help to cool escalation in volatile threads.

Also perhaps a distinction here -I would not say someone is lying if they believe they are correct - lying would seem to me the deliberate attempt to mis-lead someone. In a Forum such as Kavars - there will be a very broad range of opinions, I don't think because of that broad range people are lying where ever they are on the spectrum, not all will be correct (in fact most incorrect) - the point of debate is to establish who is correct, but that will not always be done to people's satisfaction.

Perhaps it would also be nice if we could all move to a clean slate and start thing anew? If you follow, I'm sure problems will happen, but it maybe useful to pass over what has happened in the past? :)

I think I use my sniper rifle far too often. Anyways, moderators (this post is not sarcastic) feel free to tell me to cool me heels when and if I use it. I admittedly have a bad habit of it, one I still have not broken; so I want you to correct me about that when I do...

I'm kind of like (this is an analogy) the pyro who likes water more than fire but can't stop lighting matches.

No worries - we all have our moments :)

Achilles
09-10-2008, 06:24 PM
:xp: Ok, why?Because of the double standard (which I explain in my previous post).

I both agree and disagree. Depends on the respect referred to - as you state below and I was more meaning; behaving respectfully to one another, than neccasarily respecting the person conversing/debating with. :) I assumed that you meant the "behaving respectfully" form of respect, but I also thought mimartin's point was especially important so I referenced both.

I think calling someone a liar (even if true), I don't think is helpful and could turn up the heat within a discussion. Would it not be a better idea to write "I think you are incorrect because etc"? The former comes off as a personal attack, while the latter doesn't seem personal. It just makes things easier, and I would be personally be very grateful as it would make my life a little easier, as it may help to cool escalation in volatile threads. Indeed, however I think this misses the point.

If we're going to be concerned about respectful behavior, I think we need to be consistent about it. I don't think that blatant forms of disrespect should be allowed to get a pass, while perceived forms of disrespect ("my feelings were hurt by xyz. I've been disrespected", etc) are chased down and dogpiled.

Also perhaps a distinction here -I would not say someone is lying if they believe they are correct - lying would seem to me the deliberate attempt to mis-lead someone. Correct. But surely you acknowledge that there are many ways to be deceitful. I also imagine that you would acknowledge that some of them are pretty transparent.

In a Forum such as Kavars - there will be a very broad range of opinions, I don't think because of that broad range people are lying where ever they are on the spectrum, not all will be correct (in fact most incorrect) - the point of debate is to establish who is correct, but that will not always be done to people's satisfaction. Not sure where this is going. Clearly everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I think my argument had more to do with double standards and how those opinions are argued.

Perhaps it would also be nice if we could all move to a clean slate and start thing anew? If you follow, I'm sure problems will happen, but it maybe useful to pass over what has happened in the past? :)I start every day hoping for a clean slate. :)

Some days I'm pleasantly surprised. Most days I'm disappointed.

jonathan7
09-10-2008, 06:34 PM
Because of the double standard (which I explain in my previous post).

Indeed, however I think this misses the point.

If we're going to be concerned about respectful behavior, I think we need to be consistent about it. I don't think that blatant forms of disrespect should be allowed to get a pass, while perceived forms of disrespect ("my feelings were hurt by xyz. I've been disrespected", etc) are chased down and dogpiled.

I will do my best to be neutral and to deal with any forms of disrespect I see - is that acceptable?

I assumed that you meant the "behaving respectfully" form of respect, but I also thought mimartin's point was especially important so I referenced both.

Coolio :)

Correct. But surely you acknowledge that there are many ways to be deceitful. I also imagine that you would acknowledge that some of them are pretty transparent.

Indeed.

Not sure where this is going. Clearly everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I think my argument had more to do with double standards and how those opinions are argued.

Okies, with regards myself I can only Moderate from this point forward.

I start every day hoping for a clean slate. :)

Some days I'm pleasantly surprised. Most days I'm disappointed.

I'm sorry about the disappointing days :(

Achilles
09-10-2008, 06:49 PM
I will do my best to be neutral and to deal with any forms of disrespect I see - is that acceptable? No disrespect (and no pun intended), but I seriously doubt this. Not because I don't think you have awesome intentions, but because I don't think you can impact the honesty quotient of others.

I'm sorry about the disappointing days :(Not your fault. I still have hope for you :D

Jae Onasi
09-10-2008, 07:07 PM
I'm sorry you think that people disagreeing with your opinions means they must be lying. It's not the case. I can't convince you otherwise, so I guess that's it.

I will ask one thing--if you're so disappointed with this forum, why do you stay? There's no point in doing something that makes you miserable.

Tommycat
09-10-2008, 07:26 PM
I would say it is very disrespectful to call someone a liar without proof. That is a character judgement without evidence.

I personally think that people should afford people a little courtesy. Avoid personal attacks. If you feel they are wrong on an issue, state why you think they are wrong. Don't call them names and insult them. Of course I can understand it in some cases, as I have been party to it enough times that I can't claim to be perfect. I strive to, though I admit the past 8 years of politics has worn me a little thin on some subjects. I say give others the respect you would want for yourself.... scratch that, give them the respect you would want them to give your mother.

Achilles
09-10-2008, 07:26 PM
I'm sorry you think that people disagreeing with your opinions means they must be lying. It's not the case. I can't convince you otherwise, so I guess that's it. You're taking what appears to be an especially personal interest in this, Jae. Why is that?

And yes, there is huge difference between disagreeing with a position and being dishonest. I'm quite capable of recognizing both. It's not as though dishonest debate tactics are that varied or difficult to recognize. I have no problem with disagreement. I do have a problem with dishonesty and double standards.

I will ask one thing--if you're so disappointed with this forum, why do you stay? There's no point in doing something that makes you miserable. I think you're taking my comment further than I intended it to be taken. At what point did I say I was disappointed with the forum?

Jae Onasi
09-11-2008, 10:24 AM
You're taking what appears to be an especially personal interest in this, Jae. Why is that?That's because you have, over the last year or so, accused me of dishonesty, without any proof of such, more often than everyone else combined here. Why are you asking when you already know this? By all means, present your proof here for everyone to see just what you mean by my 'dishonesty', where I intentionally and maliciously intended to deceive you.

I think you're taking my comment further than I intended it to be taken. At what point did I say I was disappointed with the forum?All right, my mistake. I'm sorry some people, a few people, most people, or even just one person, and/or their/his/her comments disappoint you. I think that disappointment is stemming from your desire for this forum, its participants, and/or comments within it, to be something that was never intended.

The consensus of people who participated in the thread asking if the Senate and Kavar's should be merged clearly indicated that people wanted a friendly place to discuss (not to be confused with formal debate) their thoughts on more serious issues, separate from the more debate-oriented Senate. This forum does not meet your needs as well as the Senate, and likely never will, because the consensus was not to turn it into that type of forum. With your constant emphasis on fallacies and argument structure (and/or the lack thereof), I think you are expecting a particular mode of formal debate that those of us who conceived Kavar's and many of us who participate here, never intended. The staff is not going to change that to accommodate one person when the consensus is obviously otherwise, particularly when another forum is available that already meets your needs in that department. This is a gaming forum filled with teens who do not have the formal education to debate at the graduate debate level you appear to want. Expecting participants here not only to debate, but to do it at your level of proficiency without your years of education and debate experience, is both unrealistic and unfair.

mimartin
09-11-2008, 03:00 PM
I both agree and disagree. Depends on the respect referred to I was referring to true respect in my comments. I can treat someone respectfully without really having any respect for him or her. There is a big difference between being polite and respecting someone. By being polite, I am not showing respect for another, but myself.

El Sitherino
09-11-2008, 03:13 PM
You know what you do when you see someone lying? You respectfully post facts, like you're supposed to in a debate. If you're questioned then simply post your source(s).

Everyone should remain civil, however light-hearted banter is encouraged. At least this is my feeling. Again new addition has been made by myself to the Kavar rules, I suggest everyone read over that thread in general. Remember, we all have our own feelings, it's up to us to keep them in check.

Pavlos
09-11-2008, 05:07 PM
I blame violent media and games. :carms:
I agree! We should form some sort of... some sort of... committee or something!

Achilles
09-11-2008, 05:32 PM
Jae,

Apparently my response has been snipped. Interestingly this just further exemplifies my concerns regarding the double standard. I'm just posting to let you know that I was not ignoring your comments and did try to reply in good faith.

Take care.

It was not moderated by me. In fact, I didn't even know about it until I checked this thread a couple minutes ago and saw the action. Just to clarify that.
Please take care as well. --Jae

You know what you do when you see someone lying? You respectfully post facts, like you're supposed to in a debate. If you're questioned then simply post your source(s).

Everyone should remain civil, however light-hearted banter is encouraged. At least this is my feeling. Again new addition has been made by myself to the Kavar rules, I suggest everyone read over that thread in general. Remember, we all have our own feelings, it's up to us to keep them in check. This is all well and fine, however this still utterly fails to address the point I raised. A little bit of consistency would be huge.

El Sitherino
09-11-2008, 06:42 PM
Jae,

Apparently my response has been snipped. Interestingly this just further exemplifies my concerns regarding the double standard. I'm just posting to let you know that I was not ignoring your comments and did try to reply in good faith.

This is all well and fine, however this still utterly fails to address the point I raised. A little bit of consistency would be huge.
I deleted your post, as well I'm afraid an ever circumstancial world cannot fall in line as you wish it.

Posts may be removed at any moment as it is in the end at the discretion of our moderator staff. If your post simply does nothing but further disrespect, pointless argument, or otherwise removes from the quality of the forum itself then it will be remove or edited accordingly.

I apologize for any confusion that has been caused, however a quick review of our rules should answer an further questions.

Sincerely,
The cuddly-*******.

Arcesious
09-11-2008, 07:15 PM
The thing about Lucasforums I like is that it's full of friendly people. But also a few less than great people... The thing I don't like is that it has gotten pretty strict lately... I know, I know... The PG-13 rule... Honestly, I'm getting tired of that rule, and the 'liveliness' of debates seems to have degenerated. The new features have been great, but I'm just getting a little... I dunno... Tired of this place. :/

El Sitherino
09-11-2008, 07:19 PM
The thing about Lucasforums I like is that it's full of friendly people. But also a few less than great people... The thing I don't like is that it has gotten pretty strict lately... I know, I know... The PG-13 rule... Honestly, I'm getting tired of that rule, and the 'liveliness' of debates seems to have degenerated. The new features have been great, but I'm just getting a little... I dunno... Tired of this place. :/

What in the name of great Funky Phantom does that have to do with snipers, Kavar's, or Jae vs. Achilles: The Match that Rocked the Planet (Featuring Rocky Balboa and Ivan Drago as special guest commentators)?

Achilles
09-11-2008, 07:23 PM
It was not moderated by me. In fact, I didn't even know about it until I checked this thread a couple minutes ago and saw the action. Just to clarify that.
Please take care as well. --Jae
No worries, Jae. I didn't think it was you :D

I deleted your post, as well I'm afraid an ever circumstancial world cannot fall in line as you wish it.

Posts may be removed at any moment as it is in the end at the discretion of our moderator staff. If your post simply does nothing but further disrespect, pointless argument, or otherwise removes from the quality of the forum itself then it will be remove or edited accordingly.

I apologize for any confusion that has been caused, however a quick review of our rules should answer an further questions.

Sincerely,
The cuddly-*******.Indeed. So long as the rules are enforced consistently, I'm perfectly okay with them. It's when we start seeing (here I go again) double-standards that I have a problem.

But perhaps at some point we might actually get around to addressing my point rather than demonstrating what it looks like.

jonathan7
09-11-2008, 07:33 PM
The thing about Lucasforums I like is that it's full of friendly people. But also a few less than great people...

You'll find that which ever forum you go on, and anywhere in life.

The thing I don't like is that it has gotten pretty strict lately... I know, I know... The PG-13 rule... Honestly, I'm getting tired of that rule,

Well, its here to stay, and rightly given this is a SW forums - So you'll have to like it and lump it - besides if posting age was to be upped, it would be to 16 or 18 - which would mean you weren't allowed to post ;)

and the 'liveliness' of debates seems to have degenerated.

There was a time, when quite a few people thought Kavars, was going to split the community, and still think that Kavars, produces bad blood in our little KotOR world, as such I think most of us are quite releveaved for the current 'lull' in debates.

The new features have been great, but I'm just getting a little... I dunno... Tired of this place. :/

You are of course free to do whatever you want with regards where you go, I think sometimes a little time off can be helpful to refresh.

Jae Onasi
09-11-2008, 07:34 PM
The thing about Lucasforums I like is that it's full of friendly people. But also a few less than great people... The thing I don't like is that it has gotten pretty strict lately... I know, I know... The PG-13 rule... We haven't been any more strict on PG-13 content than we were before, but I have noticed you pushing the line more than you did a year ago. ;)

Honestly, I'm getting tired of that rule, and the 'liveliness' of debates seems to have degenerated.
I'm sorry you're tired of the rule, but Aristotle and the other owners have worked very hard on LF's relationship with LucasArts, and we're not about to jeopardize that relationship so that you can exercise your new-found desire to use expletives or post mature content. The owner wants it PG-13, and I'm going to do my best as moderator to keep it the way he wants.

The new features have been great, but I'm just getting a little... I dunno... Tired of this place. :/There are lots of places on the internet that are fun, this one included, but if it's not your kind of fun anymore, I can understand if you feel the need to move on.

Arcesious
09-11-2008, 09:06 PM
I guess that's all understandable then... If I had taken the line of thought "What is/was it like in the eyes of the staff members?" I would probably have thought out whatever I was planning to post here better...

your new-found desire

Erm not so much... I never, on any forum, ever 'said' serious swear words. (As far as I remember.) At most, I'll use this key (between the quotes) "*" to say anything. I was however surprised to find out that certain unserious (IMHO) words I was using were considered expletives. Although after talking with J7 a bit I've agreed to decide not to use obcenities at all here (or anywhere else.)

However, I have seen a bit of a double standard with moderators being able to bend the rules... For example I'll quote El Sitherino:

Sincerely,
The cuddly-*******.

But after all this, I think I'm now in agreement with the all the rules you've made for this forum...

Tommycat
09-11-2008, 09:34 PM
I've always found it ironic that using "adult" language shows a lack of maturity.

El Sitherino
09-11-2008, 11:12 PM
However, I have seen a bit of a double standard with moderators being able to bend the rules... For example I'll quote El Sitherino:



But after all this, I think I'm now in agreement with the all the rules you've made for this forum...

Explain to me how there is a double standard? I haven't remove any language from peoples posts, nor has anyone enstated that curse words are off bounds. There's a censor for a reason, as well people are allowed to enter in personality into a post as long as there is point and reason to their post. If you disagree with my personality then tell me so, I'll refrain from making referencial humor and jokes in general.

I've always found it ironic that using "adult" language shows a lack of maturity.

That's cool, I've always found it ironic that people have a hard time differentiating between serious topics and serious posting. You can discuss a serious topic without having a serious attitude. Sometimes taking life less serious is a good thing.

I also enjoy that you simply quote my reference and don't quote my post which was well worded and detailed that if there is an issue with a deleted post there are places to take that, and there is a place to read where and why things may be done (the rules thread). Before attempting to demonize me, perhaps it would serve you to understand what type of person I am. I attempt to make the effort to know what type of person you are and I attempt to show you respect by providing you with the information you seek, how about showing me the same respect.

After all respect is a two-part system, it's like a dance, both parties need to show respect in order for a respectful discourse to take place. Here we treat eachother as civilized people capable of rational and logical thought. To say that someone must first show that is dysfunctional and incorrect, as well it goes against the very purpose of this place. Everyone that enters Kavar's is understanding that this is not Ahto, that's why serious topics have been transfered to their own dedicated forum, just like the Senate's creation so long ago.

mimartin
09-11-2008, 11:56 PM
There was a time, when quite a few people thought Kavars, was going to split the community, and still think that Kavars, produces bad blood in our little KotOR world, as such I think most of us are quite releveaved for the current 'lull' in debates. So the staff is relieved there is no discussion in a discussion forum? I guess that is one way to prevent disagreements. :D If you disagree with my personality then tell me so, I'll refrain from making referencial humor and jokes in general. Please don’t stop. I may not agree with you all the time, but I do enjoy how you keep things from getting too serious.

Achilles
09-11-2008, 11:57 PM
After all respect is a two-part system, it's like a dance, both parties need to show respect in order for a respectful discourse to take place. Here we treat each other as civilized people capable of rational and logical thought. To say that someone must first show that is dysfunctional and incorrectQFE/T

El Sitherino
09-12-2008, 12:41 AM
I love you guys.


In a totally non-gay way. But if I were to, it'd be colorful and filled with disco-globes. ABBA would not be played, but experienced. As well, Meryl Streep will be kept 20 feet away at all times, except when we bring up Death Becomes Her.

Tommycat
09-12-2008, 01:14 AM
That's cool, I've always found it ironic that people have a hard time differentiating between serious topics and serious posting. You can discuss a serious topic without having a serious attitude. Sometimes taking life less serious is a good thing.

Must be missing the actual irony part. :confused:

But yes I do agree that respect should be a two way street, however since you cannot control the other(well technically you can since you are a mod, but still....) the best option is to treat the other with respect first, until they show that they do not deserve the respect. Or more to the topic, just be nice. You don't have to respect someone to be nice.

El Sitherino
09-12-2008, 02:26 AM
Must be missing the actual irony part. :confused:

But yes I do agree that respect should be a two way street, however since you cannot control the other(well technically you can since you are a mod, but still....) the best option is to treat the other with respect first, until they show that they do not deserve the respect. Or more to the topic, just be nice. You don't have to respect someone to be nice.

No, I just have a hard time not commenting on something. I like to poke around at standards. The way I see it, this section is basically for posting facts. Either your facts counter someones ideal or they don't, either way you should never have ill intent with your post. That's just my personal philosophy and I never try to take this place seriously. I prefer imagining that I'm just goofing around with some friends, hoping at the end everyone will be okay talking with one another peacefully with no irritation. Any judgement or anything taking place in a post, takes place in that post.

jonathan7
09-12-2008, 04:37 AM
Erm not so much... I never, on any forum, ever 'said' serious swear words. (As far as I remember.) At most, I'll use this key (between the quotes) "*" to say anything. I was however surprised to find out that certain unserious (IMHO) words I was using were considered expletives. Although after talking with J7 a bit I've agreed to decide not to use obscenities at all here (or anywhere else.)

Any words I changed, would be because when working as PE technician, and teaching young people, they are words which would have brought disciplinary procedures against me had I used them. As such, that is why I didn't consider them appropriate for a PG-13 procedure. I hope that clears that up

However, I have seen a bit of a double standard with moderators being able to bend the rules... For example I'll quote El Sitherino:

But after all this, I think I'm now in agreement with the all the rules you've made for this forum...

There is a slight difference between language being starred out, and that on display - though it depends on many different variations, context used, discussion etc. Some of my favourite comedy shows have lots of swearing in, but I can't post them in forum.

Explain to me how there is a double standard? I haven't remove any language from peoples posts, nor has anyone enstated that curse words are off bounds. There's a censor for a reason, as well people are allowed to enter in personality into a post as long as there is point and reason to their post. If you disagree with my personality then tell me so, I'll refrain from making referencial humor and jokes in general.

That's cool, I've always found it ironic that people have a hard time differentiating between serious topics and serious posting. You can discuss a serious topic without having a serious attitude. Sometimes taking life less serious is a good thing.

I also enjoy that you simply quote my reference and don't quote my post which was well worded and detailed that if there is an issue with a deleted post there are places to take that, and there is a place to read where and why things may be done (the rules thread). Before attempting to demonize me, perhaps it would serve you to understand what type of person I am. I attempt to make the effort to know what type of person you are and I attempt to show you respect by providing you with the information you seek, how about showing me the same respect.

After all respect is a two-part system, it's like a dance, both parties need to show respect in order for a respectful discourse to take place. Here we treat eachother as civilized people capable of rational and logical thought. To say that someone must first show that is dysfunctional and incorrect, as well it goes against the very purpose of this place. Everyone that enters Kavar's is understanding that this is not Ahto, that's why serious topics have been transfered to their own dedicated forum, just like the Senate's creation so long ago.

Good post Sithy... :)

So the staff is relieved there is no discussion in a discussion forum? I guess that is one way to prevent disagreements. :D Please don’t stop. I may not agree with you all the time, but I do enjoy how you keep things from getting too serious.

That's not what I mean and you know it :xp:

I do think discussion such as this are helpful, as I think it helps us all understand where we are coming from, and hopefully to lessen 'incidents' in the future. Thanks for the discussion y'all.

Jae Onasi
01-21-2009, 01:07 AM
Reminder to everyone since the flaming has been getting out of hand lately--keep it toned down. If you want to say something nasty, fine, just don't hit the 'post reply' button when you do so.