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DoubleDHZ
08-24-2008, 09:44 AM
I just started playing KotOR2:TSL

Now what rfeally confuses me, is this female Jedi called Kreia and telling me I'm the last Jedi? WTF?

She neither has DS alignment nor does she act like a Sith. So why is she no jedi?

I even don't get any dialog options to ask her about this oddity.

I'm currently in hyperspace after leaving Peragus. Have I missed something? Will this matter clarify later in the game?

Arátoeldar
08-24-2008, 10:45 AM
I just started playing KotOR2:TSL

Now what rfeally confuses me, is this female Jedi called Kreia and telling me I'm the last Jedi? WTF?

She neither has DS alignment nor does she act like a Sith. So why is she no jedi?

I even don't get any dialog options to ask her about this oddity.

I'm currently in hyperspace after leaving Peragus. Have I missed something? Will this matter clarify later in the game?

The plot will revel itself to you as you finish the game. The plot will not be spoon feed to you. You will have to think for yourself.

Ztalker
08-24-2008, 11:35 AM
It depends on how you look at it. Maybe she thinks you are the last Jedi because the rest of the Jedi are all wimps? Or losers?

In any case, she's blind so she wouldn't spot another Jedi if he sat in front of her.

Corinthian
08-24-2008, 01:35 PM
It's pretty much a crock. Everybody and their ma is a Jedi. You're just the Last Jedi who isn't actually a Jedi...the plot's really not very well thought out, to be honest.

Burnseyy
08-24-2008, 04:21 PM
I never got that 'last jedi' thing. It would have made sense if it was because Kreia was an exile... but so is the main character, so there's not really an explenation for it.

Maybe it's what the sith consider the last jedi... and since the sith KNOW Kreia, then they know she's not worth it... and they think the rest of them are dead. Including Atris, Kavar, Zez Kai Ell and Vrook. >_>

Achilles
08-24-2008, 04:30 PM
I think the emphasis is that the Exile is the last known Jedi.

[debatable point]Kreia doesn't have any attachment the Jedi Order, as she was exiled as Master Kae. Therefore there's no reason to associate "Kreia" with the Jedi and the Sith Lords know this.[/debatable point]

Kavar, Vrook, and Zez Kai Ell went into hiding. Atris was similarly off the radar, as those three though she died on Katarr.

Had the premise been "the last known Force user" we'd have inconsistencies, but as it stands, the story holds up.

Ctrl Alt Del
08-24-2008, 04:41 PM
^Achilles words are mine.

Corinthian
08-24-2008, 04:47 PM
The Exile isn't a Jedi anymore. Expelled from the Order, remember? He's just a renegade Force User.

Ctrl Alt Del
08-24-2008, 04:57 PM
The Exile isn't a Jedi anymore. Expelled from the Order, remember? He's just a renegade Force User.

The Sith doesn't seem to see the difference. If the Exile is not with them...

Corinthian
08-24-2008, 04:58 PM
Yes, yes, but you don't see them harping on about the other 'Force Adepts'.

DoubleDHZ
08-24-2008, 05:07 PM
[debatable point]Kreia doesn't have any attachment the Jedi Order, as she was exiled as Master Kae. Therefore there's no reason to associate "Kreia" with the Jedi and the Sith Lords know this.[/debatable point]

This guy from the title screen calls her "Master", before he cuts off Kreias hand.
For me that's evidence enough, that he knows she's a jedi.

Anyway, as long as this clears up, as Arátoeldar says, that'll suffice for the time being.

Still it's pretty odd. If this would be a pen & paper RPG, that would be the very first question I, respectively my char, would ask...

Ctrl Alt Del
08-24-2008, 05:08 PM
Yes, yes, but you don't see them harping on about the other 'Force Adepts'.
Okay, there you caught me. Just maybe they were looking for the Exile in particular because he probably was the most famed ex-Jedi around.

This guy from the title screen, calls her "Master" before, he cuts off Kreias hand.
For me that's evidence enough, that he knows she's a jedi.
Not wanting to spoil anything for you, but that's not true. Would he call her master when he's obviously not a Jedi?

Corinthian
08-24-2008, 05:23 PM
Master does not just refer to a Jedi Master.

DoubleDHZ
08-24-2008, 05:33 PM
Not wanting to spoil anything for you, but that's not true. Would he call her master when he's obviously not a Jedi?
Master does not just refer to a Jedi Master.

Okay, I was purely assuming, that he is a jedi/sith. Just because he's on the title screen and came with the harbinger along with the sith/force adept-assassins.

I probably have to play a bit further to gain bit more insight into the plot. As far I can tell it's pretty confusing at the beginning :P

SpoonCake
08-24-2008, 06:45 PM
You are called "The Last of the Jedi" because it is BELIEVED that all of the other Jedi have died either physically or mentally. There was only two fates left from the two wars they faced. Either you died in one of the two wars in combat or the events hit you so hard that you turned away from everything the Jedi stood for.

Still, Krea and the Sith Lords believe you to be the last one because they believe that you are the only one left that will do anything to stop them, such as a Jedi would.

The game is confusing at the beginning because the game was basically rushed to be finished. Instead of taking the time to make sure that the game was finished and bug free as possible, they were trying to rush to make a deadline that they ultimately wouldn't have been able to meet.

I'm not going to give away the game or anything, but the confusion is cleared up the first time you board the ebon hawk and have a good talk with Krea.

Hopefully with the new KOTOR game that they'll be making, they will make sure that they give themselves enough time to design the game in a way that's as bug free as possible, and making sure that the story line was better laid out. Most people like KOTOR1'S story line because you get into more details and you end up having more clearity about what's going on and the game itself.

Ctrl Alt Del
08-24-2008, 08:44 PM
Okay, I was purely assuming, that he is a jedi/sith. Just because he's on the title screen and came with the harbinger along with the sith/force adept-assassins.

Your thoughts aren't wrong, but if he's a Sith and call her a master, that most certainly doesn't configure a Jedi out of her.

Burnseyy
08-25-2008, 11:22 PM
'Last known jedi' or is it... 'last known threat to the sith'?

;)

Corinthian
08-26-2008, 04:19 PM
...Ignoring Revan, Bastila, and every other scrag Jedi Knight out there (The Great Jedi Purge was successful and they still left tens of thousands of Jedi alive if SWG is to be believed. This one didn't even warrant a 'Great' behind it.)

Burnseyy
09-01-2008, 12:24 AM
Revan's off in the Unknown regions, and all the other Jedi are off hiding.
The Exile's the only one who is oblivious to most of what's going on, since he/she's been travelling so much, and could be a threat to the sith. Defeating that would mean the other Jedi were all in hiding and too afraid to do anything about it.

Corinthian
09-01-2008, 12:34 AM
Which really makes no sense, given that it's already been established that Bastila is both alive, bold, and rash enough to try to tackle Sion single-handedly.

jonathan7
09-01-2008, 07:44 AM
Clarification - I don't think any of the council are regarded as Jedi any more - (considering what Kreia says if you meet up with the LS at Dantooine - and their actions - (Kavar did little to stop the Civil War, Zez didn't do anything in the refugee sector and Vrook was being his usual charming self). Atris has already fallen - and many think she died, so she cannot be considered a Jedi. All the others were in hiding - so the Exile was the last Jedi, in terms of being known. I don't consider it a plot hole as such, myself :xp:

TKA-001
09-01-2008, 09:48 AM
I'll never understand the concept that being a Jedi has nothing to do with your actual affiliation with the organization.

jonathan7
09-01-2008, 10:05 AM
I'll never understand the concept that being a Jedi has nothing to do with your actual affiliation with the organization.

It is in action that one truly defines themselves and what they are - do they act out what they claim to be. I would argue, that most of the Jedi in TSL - do not act out what they claim to believe - (protecting the innocent etc), I hope that gives you some insight into my perspective :)

Corinthian
09-01-2008, 11:33 AM
So, basically, all one has to do to become a Jedi is protect the innocent and stuff? Well, that changes a great deal.

Astor
09-01-2008, 12:01 PM
I think that the actions of the Jedi in hiding in TSL are understandable, though.

How can they help the innocent when those innocents would just as soon turn on them for a bounty?

What are we going to do next? Criticise Yoda for going into hiding instead of throwing himself on Palpatine's blade?

It's pretty much the same situation, after all.

Burnseyy
09-01-2008, 12:12 PM
Well a Jedi is supposed to protect.
If they don't protect anyone, they're not fulfilling the basic point of being a Jedi, and can't be called a true Jedi. They still technically are one, but if they hide, do nothing to help others, or stop the sith, then what good are that as a Jedi?

Obviously the sith saw this... and if Bastila hadn't done anything after four/five years (I think it is between K1 and K2) but fret about Revan, she's obviously not a threat.

jonathan7
09-01-2008, 12:32 PM
What are we going to do next? Criticise Yoda for going into hiding instead of throwing himself on Palpatine's blade?

It's pretty much the same situation, after all.

Nah, you forget one key difference... Yoda is waiting for Luke to come to train him to take on the Empire... Vrook, Kavar and Zez are all just sat twiddling their thumbs for no reason - what was their grand plan? To hide and wait, and then hide and wait some more, while doing nothing about the suffering surrounding them. You could if you want covertly help those around you; especially on a place like Nah Shadaa.

TKA-001
09-01-2008, 12:43 PM
.. Vrook, Kavar and Zez are all just sat twiddling their thumbs for no reason
I've explained this before. If they drew attention to themselves, then they'd get killed by Sion, or more likely, Nihilus. Every time since the purge began that the Jedi showed themselves, they got wiped out and they didn't even know what was hunting them. What were they supposed to do?

Corinthian
09-01-2008, 12:45 PM
No, Yoda failed because he decided that since he couldn't take the Emperor in single combat, he shouldn't do anything.

jonathan7
09-01-2008, 12:58 PM
I've explained this before. If they drew attention to themselves, then they'd get killed by Sion, or more likely, Nihilus. Every time since the purge began that the Jedi showed themselves, they got wiped out and they didn't even know what was hunting them. What were they supposed to do?

That was their explanation, but frankly the Exile pawns Sion in most meetings, so why fear him - and given they didn't know about Nihilus they should of taken the fight to him...

No, Yoda failed because he decided that since he couldn't take the Emperor in single combat, he shouldn't do anything.

I was under the impression Palpatine could locate Yoda - and only couldn't because Yoda was next to a darkside Nexus on Dagobah - not that I don't agree with the sentiment.

Corinthian
09-01-2008, 01:27 PM
Allegedly. It's never been clarified why Yoda went into hiding on Dagobah. The Thrawn Trilogy (Or is it the Duology? I forget.) suggests that the Dark Side Nexus was created while Yoda was hiding there, when a Bpfaashi Dark Jedi attacked Yoda and Jorj Car'das. Yoda, naturally, obliterated him.

jonathan7
09-01-2008, 01:31 PM
Allegedly. It's never been clarified why Yoda went into hiding on Dagobah. The Thrawn Trilogy (Or is it the Duology? I forget.) suggests that the Dark Side Nexus was created while Yoda was hiding there, when a Bpfaashi Dark Jedi attacked Yoda and Jorj Car'das. Yoda, naturally, obliterated him.

Hmm, from what I had read - I thought that had happened prior to the Clone Wars, so Yoda went to Dagobah, specifically because it had that Dark Side nexus - but that was probably from Wookiepedia, that I read that, so dunno how accurate it was.

Corinthian
09-01-2008, 01:42 PM
Retcons ruin everything.

Ctrl Alt Del
09-01-2008, 03:05 PM
Well a Jedi is supposed to protect.
If they don't protect anyone, they're not fulfilling the basic point of being a Jedi, and can't be called a true Jedi.

Allow me the cliché of saying that they can't protect anyone if they're dead. Unless on the force ghost shape, which I doubt it's of much use.

Besides, the Jedi who went into hiding never ceased to help people. Kavar helped the queen of Onderon to keep her throne, Zez would save people occasionally at Nar Shadaa, Kavar secretely aided administrator Adare on the construction of Khoonda and Vash, well, Vash died.

The Jedi seem uncapable of stay cloacked for much time.

Burnseyy
09-01-2008, 03:20 PM
Allow me the cliché of saying that they can't protect anyone if they're dead. Unless on the force ghost shape, which I doubt it's of much use.

Besides, the Jedi who went into hiding never ceased to help people. Kavar helped the queen of Onderon to keep her throne, Zez would save people occasionally at Nar Shadaa, Kavar secretely aided administrator Adare on the construction of Khoonda and Vash, well, Vash died.

The Jedi seem uncapable of stay cloacked for much time.

I'm not saying they didn't have the right idea... they may have helped on a small scale, but scattered and fearful of the sith, they weren't a threat.

That's all.

TKA-001
09-01-2008, 03:25 PM
How is being scattered their fault?

Darth_Yuthura
09-01-2008, 03:26 PM
Allow me the cliché of saying that they can't protect anyone if they're dead. Unless on the force ghost shape, which I doubt it's of much use.

Besides, the Jedi who went into hiding never ceased to help people. Kavar helped the queen of Onderon to keep her throne, Zez would save people occasionally at Nar Shadaa, Kavar secretely aided administrator Adare on the construction of Khoonda and Vash, well, Vash died.

The Jedi seem uncapable of stay cloacked for much time.

Vrook was with Adare in Khoonda, but he didn't help her with the reconstruction. She was actually helping him to preserve the ruins of the enclave from the scavengers. He took the first chance he could to be captured and shipped out of that place, but got angry at the Exile for forcing him to help against the mercenaries.

ZKE was wise and all, but didn't help the Exile when she needed help the most. His intentions were well placed, but his actions were passive and provided few deeds for anyone other than jedi.

Ctrl Alt Del
09-01-2008, 03:27 PM
scattered and fearful of the sith, they weren't a threat.

The Empire on the Old Trilogy knew better than take their chances with the handful of Jedi that remained, and yet Luke, who wasn't even a complete Jedi, killed the the Emperor.

jonathan7
09-01-2008, 03:31 PM
The Empire on the Old Trilogy knew better than take their chances with the handful of Jedi that remained, and yet Luke, who wasn't even a complete Jedi, killed the the Emperor.

Didn't Vader do that? :xp: Luke did defeat Vader though...

Burnseyy
09-01-2008, 03:33 PM
How is being scattered their fault?

I never said it was their fault.

The Empire on the Old Trilogy knew better than take their chances with the handful of Jedi that remained, and yet Luke, who wasn't even a complete Jedi, killed the the Emperor.

If one of the Jedi Masters went to fight the sith, they'd likely end up like Vash. She'd been killed, hadn't she? Half of the council had perished on Katarr, hadn't they? The remaining Masters didn't want to reveal themselves to the enemy, and couldn't gather, or else they would run the risk of being targetted... like they were at the end, on Dantooine.

Luke stood up to his enemies, anyway.

JCarter426
09-01-2008, 04:38 PM
What were they supposed to do?
Doing nothing will certainly solve everything.

Corinthian
09-01-2008, 05:05 PM
Resist. They're Jedi. If all of them ganged up, they could probably have at least diced Sion apart, although he would have eventually reassembled himself like Cthulhu unless they killed him properly by staking him, cutting his head off, filling his mouth with garlic, drowning him in Holy Water, burning him, and then spreading his ashes over Holy Ground.

Astor
09-01-2008, 05:20 PM
Vrook was with Adare in Khoonda, but he didn't help her with the reconstruction. She was actually helping him to preserve the ruins of the enclave from the scavengers. He took the first chance he could to be captured and shipped out of that place, but got angry at the Exile for forcing him to help against the mercenaries.

Well, someone needed to preserve the Jedi artefacts and teachings left behind, otherwise the Jedi wouldn't survive. But Vrook couldn't know that Atris was already doing the same.

But by allowing himself to be captured, the problems the mercenaries caused would likely diminish, thereby allowing the people of Dantooine to continue the reconstruction with little interruption.

Doing nothing will certainly solve everything.

And going out and being killed one by one would solve everything too. :)

Darth_Yuthura
09-01-2008, 05:56 PM
Well, someone needed to preserve the Jedi artefacts and teachings left behind, otherwise the Jedi wouldn't survive. But Vrook couldn't know that Atris was already doing the same.

But by allowing himself to be captured, the problems the mercenaries caused would likely diminish, thereby allowing the people of Dantooine to continue the reconstruction with little interruption.


The issue the jedi should have been focused on was defeating the sith... not preserving the jedi. Atris was more interested in acquiring power for herself and was the greatest enemy to the jedi. She arranged for Katarr to be destroyed and for the other masters to gather on Dantooine, where she wouldn't be in danger, herself.

The only one who was directly responsible for saving the jedi was the Exile. The jedi who remained were more interested in saving themselves and their way than in saving the Republic. If KZE had been a true jedi, he would have stood up against the masters for their sin against the Exile. Kavar would have not turned on his friend. Vrook would have not been so bogged down with the jedi to realize that stopping the sith was the real goal.

Vrook's capture would have served for good once. After that, he would have been dead. The Exile did all he aimed for and more... he still treated her like she was a threat.

JCarter426
09-02-2008, 12:41 AM
Well, someone needed to preserve the Jedi artefacts and teachings left behind, otherwise the Jedi wouldn't survive. But Vrook couldn't know that Atris was already doing the same.
She preserved artifacts, yes, but teachigns? Who did she teach? If anything, her "preservation" meant that anyone looking for Jedi teachings (Mical, for instance) would find that someone done taken them already. She was killing the Jedi Order by simply sitting alone in an ice hole ranting about her bitter hatred of the Exile to a bunch of albino chicks. Wait, what were we talking about? :p

As Brianna says, it's not enough to preserve knowledge; bringing that knowledge to others is what's important.

And going out and being killed one by one would solve everything too. :)
Silly Jedi. :p

Vrook's capture would have served for good once. After that, he would have been dead. The Exile did all he aimed for and more... he still treated her like she was a threat.
Well, the Exile was a threat. Possibly even a bigger threat than the Sith. The problem is that the Council treated the Exile as a threat, rather than a fellow Jedi. Instead of healing the wound, they decided to kill the patient and cut their losses. A rather Sithy thing to do, oddly enough.

And in any case, they could have at least waited until after the Exile killed all the Sith to stop them, instead of before, destroying their only chance to turn the tide to their side. :indif:

Ctrl Alt Del
09-02-2008, 01:32 PM
Vrook was with Adare in Khoonda, but he didn't help her with the reconstruction. She was actually helping him to preserve the ruins of the enclave from the scavengers. He took the first chance he could to be captured and shipped out of that place, but got angry at the Exile for forcing him to help against the mercenaries.
Vrook would end up helping all along. He let himself get caught too, so he didn't owed anything to the Exile.

ZKE was wise and all, but didn't help the Exile when she needed help the most. His intentions were well placed, but his actions were passive and provided few deeds for anyone other than jedi.
HIs actions at Nar Shadaa were good for the Jedi? I'm interested on knowing how.



If one of the Jedi Masters went to fight the sith, they'd likely end up like Vash. She'd been killed, hadn't she? Half of the council had perished on Katarr, hadn't they? The remaining Masters didn't want to reveal themselves to the enemy, and couldn't gather, or else they would run the risk of being targetted... like they were at the end, on Dantooine. That's my point, you just said it to me again. Nevertheless, and on a smalle dimension, they still helped people.

Corinthian
09-02-2008, 02:39 PM
They should have DIED then. They're Jedi, sworn to protect the Galaxy from the depredations of the Sith. If they couldn't take the pressure, they shouldn't keep calling themselves Jedi.

TKA-001
09-03-2008, 11:30 PM
Doing nothing will certainly solve everything.
Getting themselves smashed like bugs on the windshield has at best the same result as doing nothing.

She arranged for Katarr to be destroyed and for the other masters to gather on Dantooine, where she wouldn't be in danger, herself.
Atris didn't arrange for the planet's destruction. Only for Nihilus being there. She figured the Jedi there would be able to kill Nihilus.

They should have DIED then. They're Jedi, sworn to protect the Galaxy from the depredations of the Sith. If they couldn't take the pressure, they shouldn't keep calling themselves Jedi.
Smarter to die than wait for when you can make a difference? There's something in that statement that doesn't sound right to be.

Corinthian
09-03-2008, 11:34 PM
Oh, yeah, because they sure waited for when they could make a difference. No, wait. They got killed without making any difference at all.

Knight Of Honor
09-04-2008, 11:57 AM
To answere the question. No, the exile is not the last of the Jedi. I dont know what they were thinking when they made the game. But i believe its mostly just to get fans excited. "Last of the Jedi".. Whooo, cool :D

Then when you play the game its like, WTF...

Even if people think this story is deep or whatever, i dont even believe that the developers understood what they were doing sometimes. They just hoped that we would buy the story, even if it did not make sense..

Ctrl Alt Del
09-04-2008, 02:53 PM
Oh, yeah, because they sure waited for when they could make a difference. No, wait. They got killed without making any difference at all.

Which is unnacceptable, since the Jedi don't ever fail, right? It was worth the shot of hide and stay hidden, but the situation changed and so did their plans and fate.

Corinthian
09-04-2008, 03:01 PM
These Jedi didn't just fail in their objective, they failed in their obligations as a Jedi. Rather than resisting the Sith incursions in any way they could, they sought to save their own skins. At least Zez-Kai Ell turned his back on the Jedi Order, Kavar, Vrook, and Atris all continued to consider themselves Jedi Knights, despite how little they were following it's edicts.

Ctrl Alt Del
09-04-2008, 03:39 PM
I don't see how that view could be valid. Had they continued to expose themselves to the unknown Sith threat they were facing, they would have been utterly extinct. And we're talking about a Jedi Order that had been weakened by three devastating wars on a very short period.