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thundrfang1
09-26-2008, 08:53 PM
Who do you think would win in a fight, Anakin or Revan? Anakin is not at full potential. He is only at the potential that he is in in episode 3.

Scenario 1: Lightsabers only. No melee, blasters, or force powers.

Scenario 2: War. Anakin controls the Imperial Army (including the Death Star 2), and Revan controls the Star Forges sith army.

Scenario 3: Force battle. Force powers only.

Scenario 4: Padme is being held hostage by Revan, and Bastilla is being held hostage by Anakin.

Scenario 5: All out battle. Fight to the death. Each uses whatever needed to win (except their army).

Ok, thats about it. Guive reasons and let the battle begin!

knight 12167
09-26-2008, 08:58 PM
in scenario 1 anikin would probably win

2 revan because he would have sith allies

3 revan

4 probably would end in a stalemate

5 anikin with te might of the imps

SW01
09-26-2008, 09:34 PM
Just to point out first that Anakin was at the apex of his potential in Ep.3 - his defeat rendered him a shadow of his former self.

That said, on to the scenarios:

1. It is difficult to say, as Revan is never properly seen in full Ep.3-style combat...I might have to say Anakin, as he is a Jedi Guardian.

2. I say Revan. On production and sheer firepower, both sides would probably be evenly matched, but Revan was a tactician while Vader and the Empire used brute force.

3. Revan, as the 'heart of the force'

4. Anakin, as his love for Amidala was the reason for his fall - her wellbeing was all that drove him to the dark.

5. Much as I would like to say the Empire, Revan would likely triumph as the master tactician. Ep.6 showed that tactics could overwhelm the Empire.

Endorenna
09-27-2008, 12:05 AM
1. Since I've never seen Revan in all-out battle with a lightsaber, I can't really say. Keep in mind that both Anakin and Revan have had to fight in massive battles against multiple lightsaber-wielding opponents and succeeded. It would probably be a stalemate.

2. Revan would wipe the general galactic floor with Anakin and Palpatine. The Death Star's a great asset, but it's slow, and all it really does is fire a big gun. The Star Forge, on the other hand, is producing thousands of ships at any given moment. The Death Star could probably be destroyed with the fighter squadrons alone, not to mention the flagships! Revan wins.

3. Anakin DS vs. Revan LS=Anakin wins.
Anakin LS vs. Revan DS=Revan wins.
Anakin DS vs. Revan DS=Both are dead.
Anakin LS vs. Revan LS=Battle that never ends 'cuz neither one can use any offensive Force Powers! :lol:

4. Anakin loved Padme so deeply that he betrayed the Jedi, the Republic, Obi-wan, everything he ever believed in. Revan and Bastilla's relationship never seemed to be quite that serious to me. Anakin wins hands down.

5. Both dead.

Saber-Scorpion
09-27-2008, 05:16 AM
iWell here goes

1. As stated above we have never seen Revan in lightsaber combat for all we could now he could have been the best lightsaber duelist ever but as goes i Anakin was a great lightsaber duelist but i would say they would be just like Barbossa states in Pirates Are we to be two immortals locked in an epic battle until Judgment Day and trumpets sound? this is an example of how it would turn out as we don't know how good Revan was so i say draw

2.I do agree here Darth Vader or Anakin used brute force and Revan used tatics as well the death star was quite awesome but it not really so much a giant space station with the ability to destroy a planet of course they could shoot down the Star Forge but i still vote for Revan here in a fight between intelligence and strenght it's intelligence who wins

3.Now Revan is said to be the most powerful force user of his time almost 4000 thousand years before anakin and the thing that revan was heart of the force was just how kreia would describe Revan but if you think of it after 4000 years even a kid could probably have more force potential then Revan and as stated Anakin was the chosen one it's more fitting to call him the heart of the force since he would have been the most powerful force user in history he has higher midclhorian count than Revan.
and before you start arguing the reason we think revan as more powerfull is because we made the charater to fit like we want it

4. oh come on this is can't be done it would just end with all of them dead we can't do this we know that anakin love padme with all of his life and we don't know with Revan and Bastila since we didn't see it go any further than what we saw in KOToR for all we know they could have married and had lot's of jedi children.

5.This is like scenario 2 in a way so but in this one it would be draw come if you do it like this nobody is going to win the scenario would look like this if you ask me they would fight and fight until they became half- senile and forgot why they were fighting each other and then they would either die by old age, bounty hunters or someone like nihilus.

phew i am done and quite proud fo this but it's what i think would happen

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
09-27-2008, 06:22 AM
hmm, i dispute the fact that anakin is at his full potential in ep3.
because, he only just turned to the dark side. look at yoda. anakin had more midichlorians than him but yoda was definitely stronger because of his 900 years experience and wisdom, etc. (palpatine tried to run from him. and i think if he wasnt blasted off that ledge, he would have beat sidious eventually)
i think that if obiwan didnt dice anakin, and anakin went on to study at the hands of sidious for years, becoming stronger, learning all those secrets of the dark side, he would have become the single most powerful being to ever have lived in sw history. (makes sense, yes?)
also, thundrfang, you havnt specified which revan we are talking about. is it the revanchist? darth revan right before amnesia, post amnesiac kotor 1 revan, or revan in the unknown regions.

i'd put revanchist at about kavar's level. darth revan: somewhere around sidious (this is the revan that taught bane. he knew stuff that even darth bane thought was too terrible to try. if unleashing a *thought bomb* was fine for bane to do, imagine that other stuff:eyepop: ). k1 revan was a bit stronger than that. and unknown region revan: i dont know. but id think that, being quote from malak, "..stronger than you were in your reign as the dark lord...", and then regaining his lost memory, *and* learning stuff at malachor after that, i think he might even be around yoda level.
he might even grow three foot high spiky blonde hair and scream with everything he does.:lol: *kidding*

Corinthian
09-27-2008, 06:31 AM
Scenario 1: Lightsabers only. No melee, blasters, or force powers.

Vader probably wins. He IS the Chosen One, and his mastery of Djem So was capable of thrashing Count Dooku. He was pivotal in the extermination of the Jedi Order. There's no reason to believe that Revan was anything special as a Duelist.

Scenario 2: War. Vader controls the Imperial Army (including the Death Star 2), and Revan controls the Star Forges sith army.

Come on, this isn't even a challenge. Vader has the Death Star 2, which is effectively invincible, a four thousand year head start technologically, 25,000 Imperial-Class Star Destroyers, the entire former fleet of the Grand Army of the Republic, and everything else. One shot from the Death Star II would turn the Star Forge into ash, and after that it would be a mopup operation.

Scenario 3: Force battle. Force powers only.

Vader. Chosen One. He's considered to be the most powerful Jedi ever in terms of raw power.

Scenario 4: Padme is being held hostage by Revan, and Bastilla is being held hostage by Vader.

Wouldn't ever happen. Vader would never hold Bastila hostage. He'd either turn her to the Dark Side (Again), torture her until she gave them the location of the hidden rebel base, or break her neck. As for if Revan had Padme, Vader would suffer a nervous breakdown and blow up everything in the room.

Scenario 5: Vader, again. One of the premier swordsmen in the Jedi Order and only topped by masters like Windu, Yoda, Sidious, and Kenobi, indisputably the most powerful Jedi in terms of raw power, and brutal. Revan would probably realize he was outmatched in single combat and retreat and try to kill Vader as he made orbit.

Rabish Bini
09-27-2008, 06:40 AM
Just to point out first that Anakin was at the apex of his potential in Ep.3 - his defeat rendered him a shadow of his former self.

That said, on to the scenarios:

1. It is difficult to say, as Revan is never properly seen in full Ep.3-style combat...I might have to say Anakin, as he is a Jedi Guardian.

2. I say Revan. On production and sheer firepower, both sides would probably be evenly matched, but Revan was a tactician while Vader and the Empire used brute force.

3. Revan, as the 'heart of the force'

4. Anakin, as his love for Amidala was the reason for his fall - her wellbeing was all that drove him to the dark.

5. Much as I would like to say the Empire, Revan would likely triumph as the master tactician. Ep.6 showed that tactics could overwhelm the Empire.
Agreed, my answers exactly.
Although, just to point out no. 5, there may not be time to use tactics, unless a fight to the death lasts a loooooong time.

thundrfang1
09-27-2008, 08:45 AM
Vader probably wins. He IS the Chosen One, and his mastery of Djem So was capable of thrashing Count Dooku. He was pivotal in the extermination of the Jedi Order. There's no reason to believe that Revan was anything special as a Duelist.

That's true, but there is a possibility of Revan being the Sith'ari.

Vader. Chosen One. He's considered to be the most powerful Jedi ever in terms of raw power.

But Revan's also "the heart of the force".

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
09-28-2008, 04:34 AM
Scenario 1: Lightsabers only. No melee, blasters, or force powers.

Vader probably wins. He IS the Chosen One, and his mastery of Djem So was capable of thrashing Count Dooku. He was pivotal in the extermination of the Jedi Order. There's no reason to believe that Revan was anything special as a Duelist.
vader slaughtered all the jedi in the temple with a bunch of troops behind.
revan slaughtered every dark jedi that came his way in the star forge with two party members, after which he defeated two dark lords singlehandedly. id say those are even feats there.
But then we dont know much about revan's dueling proficiency. he was above average at pretty much everything so chances are he would be a fairly good duelist.
if revan used jar'kai as implied in concept art and k2, that would NOT be a good idea vs vader's djem so.
can someone tell me what is that stance that revan assumes right before his fight vs bastila's jedi strike team on his flagship?
sidious uses a similar pose when he starts his duel vs the jedi masters in ep3. i dont know what it is.


Scenario 3: Force battle. Force powers only.

Vader. Chosen One. He's considered to be the most powerful Jedi ever in terms of raw power.

thats exactly it: RAW power. both were extremely gifted in terms of force, anakin being stronger in terms of raw power, but its like a really big, muscly grunt whos beaten up his fair share vs a kung fu master. the brute would do something like throw a heavy punch at the master. the master would do something like, quickly redirect the punch outwards, after which he would then jab at some exposed pressure point to stun the brute, quickly kick the brute behind his legs, bringing him to his knees, smash his elbow on the brute's neck/shoulder, and then hook the brute's neck in his arm in a sleeper hold, after which its lights out for the brute.
likewise, revan would have far more advanced force abilities than anakin.
unlike anakin, revan had access to the jedi archives, and he studied juicy sith secrets at trayus. and who knows what he learned while romping around the galaxy in the mando wars as the revanchist.(Stuff like that was his thing) i have no doubt he would know some of those "techniques within the force against which there is no defense".
and also, anakin was a guardian focusing on saber dueling. and in ep3, he hasnt had the chance to learn sith stuff from palpatine yet.
basicly, in ep3, anakin has only just turned to the dark side, revelling in the new ability to unleash his dark emotions and stuff. but revan can do that, and more, having more experience. basicly, in ep3, vader is a dark side 'newborn' who hasnt yet moved on to the higher mysteries of the dark side.
(heh, that sounds like a verse in the Bible...;P)


That's true, but there is a possibility of Revan being the Sith'ari.
so does vader. but *i* firmly believe the sith'ari is revan's student, Darth Bane.

adamqd
09-28-2008, 04:55 AM
I dont see any evidence that Anakin is all powerful with the force despite George's say so, the Films depict Jedi of his time as more like a galactic police force who can jump high and have a small amount of telekinesis, and even if GL means his level of force powers to be more of a "The force is with him" type deal, his life was nothing but pain, limb-loss, heartache, betrayel, Immolation and servitude, the force wasn't really looking out for him IMO, but as regards to lightsaber Dueling and fighting for Padme I think he'd beat most people, but a Force power battle, I dont think so.

Darth Hord
09-28-2008, 10:13 AM
1. Sabers- I'm giving this to ROTS Anakin, the way overwhelmed Dooku(who himself was one of the greatest duelists ever) and as the novel put it "even his(Dooku) knowledge of the force has become a joke." As for Revan's saber skills we don't know much about them. We know he cut off Malak's jaw and ended up killing Malak in a saber duel (based on Duron's vision) but that's about it. He was most likely the best of his time but we don't know which saber style he preferred. Anakin wins probably with some difficulty.

2.War- I believe this battle could go either way if the imperials find the star forge then it is all over for Revan imo. Anakin's forces have a 4,000 year tech advantage which will come into play. Besides the death star 2 the imperial navy has numerous super star destroyers besides the Executor. Another factor here is the the admirals below Revan and Anakin. While these two maybe in charge of their navies then need competent men below them, Anakin would probably have Thrawn, Revan would have? I would also like to point out that just because the star forge can make an "infinite number" of ships, Revan still needs manpower to operate them as there is no evidence to support any theory of droids controlling ships in Revan's navy so that is another advantage to Anakin is manpower. Actually I'm leaning towards Anakin for the reasons above but I will state that if they had equal number of ships,manpower,supplies and both are the heads of a single fleet (not the head of the whole navy which is why I made reference to their subordinates such as Thrawn being an admiral int he imperial navy during the battle of endor though he wasnt present for the battle) then Revan would win because he is a superior tactician.

3.Force only- Revan has the advantage in every was save for raw power(anakin was created by the force) He has a much broader knowledge of the force and has demonstrated more then the standard abilities Anakin has demonstrated.

4. Don't care

5. All Out- Basically this comes to down to this. If Anakin get Revan in a prolonged lightsaber then he wins. If Revan came create some distance to use the force effectively then he wins. That said I'd give the edge to Revan, he wins about a majority of the all out fights ( if it were out of 10) with difficulty.

TheExile
09-28-2008, 11:21 AM
1) It's pretty hard, but, in Star Wars Expanded Universe, Boba Fett actually duels Vader with lightsabers, and he actually matches Vader skills with his strength, ferocity, and willpower. Revan has these things, and even more he is trained with a saber.

So maybe Revan or a draw.


2) Revan! Actually, just with only the Sith Armie, no Star Forge, Revan would still win, because, as stated above, Revan is a formidable tactician and the Empire used brute force.

3)Revan. He holds ancient knowledge that Vader has no clue about!
There are few powers that are used in New Republic Era, compared to the Old Republic Era. So Revan would probably win.

4)Anakin. Reasons stated above.

5) I think Revan would win, or maybe a draw.
Again, Revan uses his brains both light and dark side, while Anakin is known for becoming angry and loosing his focus in a heavy battle. But, thats the reason he killed Dooku.

Anyway, Revan is over Anakin imo.

Endorenna
09-28-2008, 11:49 AM
2.War- I believe this battle could go either way if the imperials find the star forge then it is all over for Revan imo. Anakin's forces have a 4,000 year tech advantage which will come into play.

The 4,000 year old tech could destroy a planet. Remember Han in ANH? ;)

1) It's pretty hard, but, in Star Wars Expanded Universe, Boba Fett actually duels Vader with lightsabers, and he actually matches Vader skills with his strength, ferocity, and willpower. Revan has these things, and even more he is trained with a saber.

(sigh) In Star Wars EU, Darth Maul also didn't die when he fell down the three thousand foot deep reactor shaft, which probably had a very big, bad generator at the bottom of it...

Boba Fett couldn't win a lightsaber fight against a padawan, much less against the Dark Lord of the Sith! If Vader couldn't chop off Fett's head, then he wouldn't have been a viable option for Sith. He simply wouldn't have been worthy of that title. Besides that, this is a WEIGHTLESS BLADE. Fett couldn't wield one of those. Only Force Sensitive people can, and Boba Fett was not Force Sensitive.

Darth Hord
09-28-2008, 01:08 PM
The 4,000 year old tech could destroy a planet. )

They only known method that Revan had access to was the MSG (there was only the one in creation and it was made for Malachor V I believe and it is only speculated that it can be altered for other planets) While the empire has much more super weapons available(maybe not in this thread) such as the Sun Crusher.

(sigh) In Star Wars EU, Darth Maul also didn't die when he fell down the three thousand foot deep reactor shaft, which probably had a very big, bad generator at the bottom of it...

Actually he did die when he fell down the reactor shaft. I believe you are referring to the comic where he comes back as a cyborg to face Obiwan yet that canon hasn't been declared to be canon. The only post TPM Maul that is canon is the Resurrection Maul that fights Vader.


Edit: I'm no expert on the imperial navy but instead of saying that the imperial navy used just "brute force," (and no strategy as implied by other posts) could someone post examples of this belief?

Endorenna
09-29-2008, 12:03 AM
The tech I was talking about was Taris. Of course, I guess it depends on your definition of destroying a planet.

The Empire had the Sun Crusher? I thought that was only in the Legacy series. :confused:

I believe you are referring to the comic where he comes back as a cyborg to face Obiwan yet that canon hasn't been declared to be canon. The only post TPM Maul that is canon is the Resurrection Maul that fights Vader.

Sorry, I wasn't aware that it wasn't considered canon. My mistake. :)

Inyri
09-29-2008, 12:11 AM
The sun crusher was introduced 7aby in the Kevin J Anderson trilogy. It was created by Imperial scientists in the Maw cluster. It also made a brief cameo in I, Jedi by Michael Stackpole (also roughly 7aby, I believe).

Corinthian
09-29-2008, 12:42 AM
Incredibly stupid, but still canon. Sorry, but the full strength of the Empire always beats the Full Force of Revan's Sith Empire. Likewise with equal numbers. Hell, the Empire would probably win in a 2:1 or 3:1 fight. 4000 years is a long time.

Rabish Bini
09-29-2008, 01:36 AM
But Revan's also "the heart of the force".
No, he's been described as the Heart of the Force, I don't ever remember anyone saying he is the Heart of the Force

Rev7
09-29-2008, 01:37 AM
Scenario 1: Lightsabers only. No melee, blasters, or force powers.
Anakin. I think that he is a much stronger lightsaber user
Scenario 2: War. Anakin controls the Imperial Army (including the Death Star 2), and Revan controls the Star Forges sith army.
This one is very questionable. If Vader found the Star Forge, he could use the Death Star to destroy it. However, if it remained hidden, for obvious reasons (hint: infinate army) Revan would win. Really depends on the circumstances.
Scenario 3: Force battle. Force powers only.
Revan. I believe that he is a much stronger force (more experianced too) than Anakin/Vader.
Scenario 4: Padme is being held hostage by Revan, and Bastilla is being held hostage by Anakin.
I would rather not explain this one. Anakin would win. I think that you can figure out why/. ;)


Scenario 5: All out battle. Fight to the death. Each uses whatever needed to win (except their army).
50/50 here. I think that the person that would win would have to capitalize on a mistake that the other person made....

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
09-29-2008, 03:17 AM
No, he's been described as the Heart of the Force, I don't ever remember anyone saying he is the Heart of the Force

even so, he was the most powerful in his age. he would still beat anakin. i dont believe vader became more powerful than sidious. if he did, then he wouldve overthrown him without needing luke or secret apprentice. vader himself described sidious as "the most powerful sith in a thousand years" im thinking that the thousand years sith was bane, and bane was the strongest since revan... so yeah. kinda stinks that anakin lost some of his potential... imagine how powerful he wouldve gotten...

heres another reason revan would waste (thats right - waste) anakin in a force-fight and possibly in the all out fight. its indicated in darth bane:path of destruction that revan studied ancient sith and rakatan magics and alchemies.
in the novel darth bane:rule of two, darth zannah (darth bane's apprentice) once fought a jedi who was stronger faster, bigger, and way more skilled than her.(the apprentice of an echani weaponmaster who was one of the best blademasters in the order at the time. i cant remember if she *was* the best)
zannah used soresu against him but to no avail. he just kept coming hard. but during the fight, he was distracted for a split second. in that moment, she cast a sith spell on him with a hand movement. the spell made his worst fears come alive (to him). he was instantly confused, attacking unseen monsters. in his state of confusion, zannah killed him.
apparently, the longer she uses that spell on the victim, the fears become worse and more real. she used it earlier on a victim who ended up clawing her own eyes out and dying in a screaming heap. (phoo. graphic. this stuff is feree-*kay*) its like a really bad version of kotor's 'fear' force powers.
so what if revan did something like that to anakin? or worse as it would likely be?

Darth Hord
09-29-2008, 07:23 AM
even so, he was the most powerful in his age. he would still beat anakin. i dont believe vader became more powerful than sidious. if he did, then he wouldve overthrown him without needing luke or secret apprentice. vader himself described sidious as "the most powerful sith in a thousand years" im thinking that the thousand years sith was bane, and bane was the strongest since revan... so yeah. kinda stinks that anakin lost some of his potential... imagine how powerful he wouldve gotten...


Vader also described Sidious as the most powerful sith lord ever,as did numerous others sources but that's not the point. The point is just because Anakin/Vader is not more powerful then Sidious and Revan is the most powerful in his age doesn't automatically mean Revan>Anakin.

heres another reason revan would waste (thats right - waste) anakin in a force-fight and possibly in the all out fight. its indicated in darth baneath of destruction that revan studied ancient sith and rakatan magics and alchemies.
Sith alchemy is not that useful in battle and it is way to vague of a statement.


in the novel darth bane:rule of two, darth zannah (darth bane's apprentice) once fought a jedi who was stronger faster, bigger, and way more skilled than her.(the apprentice of an echani weaponmaster who was one of the best blademasters in the order at the time. i cant remember if she *was* the best)
zannah used soresu against him but to no avail. he just kept coming hard. but during the fight, he was distracted for a split second. in that moment, she cast a sith spell on him with a hand movement. the spell made his worst fears come alive (to him). he was instantly confused, attacking unseen monsters. in his state of confusion, zannah killed him.
apparently, the longer she uses that spell on the victim, the fears become worse and more real. she used it earlier on a victim who ended up clawing her own eyes out and dying in a screaming heap. (phoo. graphic. this stuff is feree-*kay*) its like a really bad version of kotor's 'fear' force powers.

Zannah was able to Sarro because the latter got distracted by his companion Johun who kept getting in the way even when he was leaving to help out the other jedi vs Bane. Zannah needed for him to be off guard before she could kill him.


so what if revan did something like that to anakin? or worse as it would likely be?

There still is zero proof that Revan ever knew the technique because Bane and Zannah had knowledge from not only Revan's holocron but Freedon Nadd's holocron and Belia Darzu's. The most logical choice for where the attack that Zannah used came from is Nadd's because we see his "apprentices" the Ketos use very similar techniques. But either way we can't prove that Revan knew the technique so it would be illogical to assume otherwise.



Now I'm confused is this ROTS Anakin as the thread title says or the Darth Vader we see in the OT?

TKA-001
09-29-2008, 02:01 PM
If it says "Anakin", it usually means him without the suit.

Darth Hord
09-29-2008, 03:40 PM
If it says "Anakin", it usually means him without the suit.

Some people have been referring to him as Vader though. Pre Suit Vader and ROTS Anakin have a very different mindset which can affect the outcome of the vs match.

Corinthian
09-29-2008, 05:19 PM
Revan cannot create an infinite army with the Star Forge, unless he also gets access to a set of Spaarti Cloning Cylinders. The Thrawn Trilogy taught us that to have one without the other is pretty much pointless.

Rabish Bini
09-30-2008, 12:35 AM
Revan cannot create an infinite army with the Star Forge, unless he also gets access to a set of Spaarti Cloning Cylinders. The Thrawn Trilogy taught us that to have one without the other is pretty much pointless.
Forget books/comics/whatever else, a lot of people don't read 'em, and that's not mentioned in the games anywhere, a lot of people wouldn't know what you're talking about.

Corinthian
09-30-2008, 12:37 AM
Your point being? If they don't understand what I'm talking about, read the Thrawn Trilogy. It is the definitive bright spot in the EU.

Rabish Bini
09-30-2008, 12:49 AM
Your point being? If they don't understand what I'm talking about, read the Thrawn Trilogy. It is the definitive bright spot in the EU.
My point being that people won't know what the hell you're talking about.

Corinthian
09-30-2008, 12:51 AM
Well, I'll burn that bridge when I come to it.

Feagildin
09-30-2008, 01:05 AM
Boba Fett couldn't win a lightsaber fight against a padawan, much less against the Dark Lord of the Sith! If Vader couldn't chop off Fett's head, then he wouldn't have been a viable option for Sith. He simply wouldn't have been worthy of that title. Besides that, this is a WEIGHTLESS BLADE. Fett couldn't wield one of those. Only Force Sensitive people can, and Boba Fett was not Force Sensitive.

....I was under the impression that Boba Fett was Force Sensitive.......

Endorenna
09-30-2008, 01:32 AM
He was? If you give me a source, I'll be more than happy to accept it. However, even if he is Force Sensitive, I still don't think he could've stood up to The Chosen One without dying.

Feagildin
09-30-2008, 03:03 AM
Well, after some research, it appears I was mistaken. Though wookiepedia does seem to suggest that Vader was toying with Boba in their duels, possibly out of curiosity.


Anyway, on topic, I vote Revan all the way. Just because Anakin had identity issues all the way up until the end of Episode VI after Luke redeemed him. Sure, Revan had amnesia, but Anakin had his issues without suffering from amnesia. I also believe that Revan had a significantly broader training in the use of the force, and therefore has the edge in all the arenas mentioned, in addition to his innate tactical skills. I suppose one could argue that the amnesia affects Revan's access to that training, but he still, imo, wins. This opinion is most likely based on my bias against Anakin in Episodes I through III.

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
09-30-2008, 04:38 AM
Vader also described Sidious as the most powerful sith lord ever,
obviously one of those small continuity errors
The point is just because Anakin/Vader is not more powerful then Sidious and Revan is the most powerful in his age doesn't automatically mean Revan>Anakin.
thats not my point. my saying 'he was the most poweful in his age' was in response to Rabish Bini's comment and is to be taken with my earlier posts about revan having more experience than anakin.
imagine anakin vs a way more experienced average jedi/sith. chances are anakin would cane him. thats pretty much what he did in the jedi temple. he went up against jedi *masters* and came out on top thanks to his sheer power. (and the clones)
my point is that someone with a power level around anakin's and with much more experience and knowlwdge than him would beat him. here is an easier way to put it: ep3 pre-diced anakin/vader vs a non canonical vader who killed obi wan, went on to learn heaps from sidious, and has overthrown him. who do you think would win? now imagine post-diced, potential reduced suit vader vs 'successful' vader. the suit vader would by most chances lose.

Sith alchemy is not that useful in battle and it is way to vague of a statement.

sith magic and alchemy is often referred to together. im focusing on the magic. and actually, what if revan used some alchemy to resurrect some dead sith to help in his fight against vader? that would help somewhat wouldnt it.

Zannah was able to Sarro because the latter got distracted by his companion Johun who kept getting in the way even when he was leaving to help out the other jedi vs Bane. Zannah needed for him to be off guard before she could kill him.

my mistake then :)

There still is zero proof that Revan ever knew the technique because Bane and Zannah had knowledge from not only Revan's holocron but Freedon Nadd's holocron and Belia Darzu's. The most logical choice for where the attack that Zannah used came from is Nadd's because we see his "apprentices" the Ketos use very similar techniques. But either way we can't prove that Revan knew the technique so it would be illogical to assume otherwise.
i know. i was speculating. thats why i said "it is indicated" rather than "it says in..." and why i said "so what if revan did something like that to anakin? or worse as it would likely be?" and i agree that zannah's spell had nothing to do with revan. i was just using her as an example to show what sith sorcery was to people who dont know exactly what it is.

Revan cannot create an infinite army with the Star Forge, unless he also gets access to a set of Spaarti Cloning Cylinders. The Thrawn Trilogy taught us that to have one without the other is pretty much pointless.

what if he manned his main fleets with humans and huge supporting fleets with droids? that would get rid of the manpower problem and it would also give revan and his admirals the ability to make many suicide attacks against the imperial fleet, and a huge edge in battle formations and such that would be impossible otherwise. in fact, in theory revan's army could design special kamikaze droid star destroyers with no creature comforts whatsoever, completely maximized for firepower and very specifically designed for the purpose of blowing themselves and the enemy up. they could maybe even do stuff like mimic comm traffic and the like to disguise themselves and manned destroyers. they could also design the kamikaze destroyers to look just like the normal ones in order to confuse the imperials. at first glance, the imperials wouldnt know which groups of destroyers are manned or droid ones.
revan could also send huge fleets of kamikazes to crash into the death star.
wait... why the hell DIDNT revan do this in his actual conquest of the republic?! prehaps he didnt need it... no wait. i see. he wanted to change the republic into a stronger galaxy. and for that he needed a sith empire. and in order for him to create an empire, he needed people.

Forget books/comics/whatever else, a lot of people don't read 'em, and that's not mentioned in the games anywhere, a lot of people wouldn't know what you're talking about.
thats their problem!:D actually, for that matter why should we bring up kotor or episode 3? some people wouldnt have played/seen it!

Your point being? If they don't understand what I'm talking about, read the Thrawn Trilogy. It is the definitive bright spot in the EU.
i just happened to have borrowed it from my library!:D havnt read it yet though.

Darth Hord
09-30-2008, 09:17 AM
obviously one of those small continuity errors
I believe Vader called him that in the "Death Star" novel.

my point is that someone with a power level around anakin's and with much more experience and knowlwdge than him would beat him.
Count Dooku certainly seems to fit into that category. He was the better saber duelist(by that I mean sheer blade work/technical skill) and had more knowledge/mastery in the force then Anakin(he tooled him and obiwan at the same time) but the latter was described to become a complete joke when Anakin went on the offensive.

For the record revan wins the force duel, and the all out with a lot difficulty (best to avoid a saber duel) as I explained in my original post.

what if he manned his main fleets with humans and huge supporting fleets with droids? that would get rid of the manpower problem and it would also give revan and his admirals the ability to make many suicide attacks against the imperial fleet, and a huge edge in battle formations and such that would be impossible otherwise. in fact, in theory revan's army could design special kamikaze droid star destroyers with no creature comforts whatsoever, completely maximized for firepower and very specifically designed for the purpose of blowing themselves and the enemy up. they could maybe even do stuff like mimic comm traffic and the like to disguise themselves and manned destroyers. they could also design the kamikaze destroyers to look just like the normal ones in order to confuse the imperials. at first glance, the imperials wouldnt know which groups of destroyers are manned or droid ones.
Then one would wonder why the confederacy didn't do this. As much as like the theory we have go by what we know as fact. I can very easily counter this theory with my own theory that the empire creates a device that shuts down the enemy droid. Or I could easily say the droid army is resurrected and they do the exact same thing but better due to the technology advantage. No offense but theories like this are rather poor points because that type of speculation can go both ways. Best to argue with the known and the known is that kotor droids are not in control of their own warships. Hence the reason why an infinite fleet is not valid. However in he could have an infinite SF droid army that would be useful in a strict land battle but that doesn't mean they will automatically win a land battle.

wait... why the hell DIDNT revan do this in his actual conquest of the republic?! prehaps he didnt need it... no wait. i see. he wanted to change the republic into a stronger galaxy. and for that he needed a sith empire. and in order for him to create an empire, he needed people.

Erm, the kamikaze droid ships would be ramming into the republic ships you know the people who wouldn't oppose his sith empire and probably wouldn't join him. It would make sense to send kamikaze droids ships on the republic warships. So I don't why he would want to keep people from a military that wasn't loyal to him. Hence the reason that a lot of republic ships were lost at Malachor. So that is a hole in the theory.

The Betrayer
09-30-2008, 10:04 AM
Scenario 1: I'd have to say this is a tie. Both of them had to fight with various lightsaber wielders, and they mostly won.

Scenario 2: Revan, definitely. Death Star=slow, Stormtroopers=ineffective. Star Forge=reason why the Sith won a war, Sith Troopers=strong in numbers

Scenario 3: Revan. He, after all made the thought bomb.

Scenario 4: Revan. Unlike Anakin, Revan can actually control his emotions to a point, and Anakin would just be mindless rage.

Scenario 5: Revan.

This are all due to personal opinions and some hints of bias. :P

Ultimate Vader
09-30-2008, 10:54 AM
Scenario 1 : Anakin, seriously. He is a master of Djem So who defeated Count Dooku, who is probably the best lightsaber duelist of that time. Why he chooses Djem So, rather than Juyo/Vaapad that uses dark emotions and fear? It is because in Djem So, the greater the midi-chlorian, the stronger the user gets. Also Djem So is like Shien but more offensive. It utilizes powerful counter if the form of critical strikes after succesfully defend an attack. And all of us probably know that Anakin Skywalker has the highest midi-chlorian count. He's the Chosen One. He only lose to our lovely Obi-Wan Kenobi because he's too arrogant to think about anything (think smart, he can jump to left side of Obi-Wan Kenobi and stab him, that's it).

Scenario 2 : This could go either way. If he finds Star Forge, then say goodbye for the great Revan. If he don't find it, he could lose. COULD. Remember, Revan is a great tactician (everybody knows that) and as described above, he has Star Forge. Now that is something. Anakin ( I assume this is Vader pre-suit ) as described above, he has Imperial Army. That means something too. But, Revan will absolutely win if the Imperial Army is as stupid as shown in Original Trilogy Movie (they shoot very lame, if you compare them to clone troopers). Revan will only lose if the Imperial Army is as smart as shown in novel.

Scenario 3 : I love Anakin/Vader character so much, but at some point I have to admit that pre-suit Anakin's force powers is nothing compared to the great and experienced Revan's force power. Revan wins every time. Sorry for Anakin fans, all of you must face the truth.

Scenario 4 : This is not fair. All of you know Anakin loves Padme so much. He will go into force rage if he sees Padme in danger. Even the experienced and powerful Count Dooku can't compare with Anakin if Anakin goes into rage. But I don't say Revan doesn't have a chance. Maybe this could go either way. I only say Anakin MAYBE wins because of his love to Padme. Revan doesn't love Bastila like Anakin loves Padme.

Scenario 5 : This should be realized as a comic or novel. It will be very great! This could go either way, but I think Anakin wins 9/10 (I assume all of Imperial's might and resources is used).

Darth Hord
09-30-2008, 12:32 PM
I'm going to try and sound like a ravening lunatic ( I'm not that fond of Anakin) but there are some flaws in your beliefs.
Scenario 1:

Scenario 2: Revan, definitely. Death Star=slow, Stormtroopers=ineffective. Star Forge=reason why the Sith won a war, Sith Troopers=strong in numbers

Erm, the storm troopers have shown themselves to be very capable outside of the OT movies. Furthermore there are ALOT more storm troopers then then there were sith troopers. The reason being is that the galactic empire was in control of the entire galaxy(which as whole was bigger to due more planets being discovered/populated) so they were the dominant military power while Revan's sith empire never was in that position even after Malak's betrayal. And the sith never won a war using the star the star forge.

Scenario 3: Revan. He, after all made the thought bomb.
While I agree that Revan takes this soundly, he did NOT create the thought bomb which is absolutely useless here and he would get himself killed trying the ritual.

Corinthian
09-30-2008, 09:31 PM
Ugh. Read Allegiance, Betrayal. The Stormtroopers are the best soldiers in the Galaxy. It's not propaganda.

Death Star isn't slow. It has what's magically called a Hyperdrive, which allows it to travel at several hundred thousand times the Speed of Light.

Thrawn Trilogy states that Droid-Controlled Battle Fleets didn't come into widespread use until after the failure of the Katana Fleet, somewhere around 25 BBY. So Revan is 3975 years off to be able to make a Droid-Controlled Fleet. He can't even use a Slave-Circuited Fleet, since that didn't come into widespread use until the rise of the Katana Fleet, and then subsequently disappeared after the Katana Fleet vanished.

Man, I am some kind of EU Deity.

The Betrayer
09-30-2008, 11:08 PM
Well, you do forget that there are A LOT more Dark Jedi/Sith at the time of Revan. Anakin has what - 10?

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
09-30-2008, 11:47 PM
I believe Vader called him that in the "Death Star" novel.

thats the one

Count Dooku certainly seems to fit into that category. He was the better saber duelist(by that I mean sheer blade work/technical skill) and had more knowledge/mastery in the force then Anakin(he tooled him and obiwan at the same time) but the latter was described to become a complete joke when Anakin went on the offensive.
from what ive seen in the expanded universe, dooku never struck me as that powerful. for me its like: theres average jedi, above average jedi (apprentice obi wan, bastila, etc), strong jedi (kavar, master obi wan, kyle katarn, mara jade), and then legendary jedi. (hoth, mace, yoda, revan, anakin, luke)
dooku seemed to fit in 'strong jedi' catergory. he became stronger thanks to the dark side and more experience etc.

Then one would wonder why the confederacy didn't do this. As much as like the theory we have go by what we know as fact. I can very easily counter this theory with my own theory that the empire creates a device that shuts down the enemy droid. Or I could easily say the droid army is resurrected and they do the exact same thing but better due to the technology advantage. No offense but theories like this are rather poor points because that type of speculation can go both ways.
sure they could do that, by they cant make as many as revan. which i think is why they didnt.

It would make sense to send kamikaze droids ships on the republic warships. thats what i meant. :)

So I don't why he would want to keep people from a military that wasn't loyal to him. Hence the reason that a lot of republic ships were lost at Malachor. So that is a hole in the theory.
um, i cant seem to undertsand what you are saying... did you miss some words or punctuation? that or my brain is on holiday.(probably the latter :xp: )

Scenario 3: Revan. He, after all made the thought bomb.
remember: revan knew how to create thought bombs. we dont know if he ever used any. (if he did, he probably wouldve made someone else do it like bane did)

Why he chooses Djem So, rather than Juyo/Vaapad that uses dark emotions and fear? It is because in Djem So, the greater the midi-chlorian, the stronger the user gets. Also Djem So is like Shien but more offensive. It utilizes powerful counter if the form of critical strikes after succesfully defend an attack.
another reason why he chose djem so is that by ep3, juyo was incomplete other than mace's vapaad. and anakin couldnt learn vapaad because mace chooses who to teach it to. and mace knows that anakin has a little problem with his emotions and i think, anakin would be a prime candidate to slip into vapaad induced dark side. IMO he couldnt have handled it. its his fiery personality. (
Shien is my favorite k2 saber style. followed by ataru. i chose shien because i found it effective for my style of play, and i like the principles of it.

Scenario 2 : This could go either way. If he finds Star Forge, then say goodbye for the great Revan. If he don't find it, he could lose. COULD. Remember, Revan is a great tactician (everybody knows that) and as described above, he has Star Forge. Now that is something. Anakin ( I assume this is Vader pre-suit ) as described above, he has Imperial Army. That means something too. But, Revan will absolutely win if the Imperial Army is as stupid as shown in Original Trilogy Movie (they shoot very lame, if you compare them to clone troopers). Revan will only lose if the Imperial Army is as smart as shown in novel.
i dont think they are stupid as in the OT. i hate the stormies, but i think they stink in the OT because the movies are old, and they didnt pay attention to that too much. its later when they made the books they realised, wow, stormtroopers are really useless! i (i mean, come on. in rotj, battle of endor. if those troops were the "empire's finest" as emperor says...)

Thrawn Trilogy states that Droid-Controlled Battle Fleets didn't come into widespread use until after the failure of the Katana Fleet, somewhere around 25 BBY. So Revan is 3975 years off to be able to make a Droid-Controlled Fleet. He can't even use a Slave-Circuited Fleet, since that didn't come into widespread use until the rise of the Katana Fleet, and then subsequently disappeared after the Katana Fleet vanished.
havnt heard of katana fleet yet... still havnt gotten round to reading thrawn trilogy yet. and id check wookiepedia, but i hate spoilers. im also trying to get outbound flight from my libraray.

Man, I am some kind of EU Deity.
eeeheh. youre not the only one around here man. this *is* lucasforums after all. (not saying i am. people have different knowledge levels. i dont know where mine would stand. :) )

Rabish Bini
10-01-2008, 12:12 AM
thats their problem!:D actually, for that matter why should we bring up kotor or episode 3? some people wouldnt have played/seen it!
The difference there being, just about EVERYONE on this forum has seen Ep 3 and played KotOR, it is a KotOR forum, after all

Man, I am some kind of EU Deity.
Yes, yes you are.

Blix
10-01-2008, 12:30 AM
Scenario 1: Revan
Scenario 2: Anakin (Death Star tips the scales)
Scenario 3: Revan
Scenario 4: Anakin
Scenario 5: Revan

Corinthian
10-01-2008, 01:21 AM
What makes you think Revan is all that powerful? He was described as a brilliant strategist, and certainly a very powerful Jedi, but other than Kreia's fetishistic fixation on him, there's nothing to suggest he's all that powerful. The Law of Conservation of Ninjutsu is the real reason why Revan was able to get through all those Dark Jedi. Darth Bane understood this, which is why he created the Rule of Two, so that from then on, all Sith would be more powerful than Jedi.

Endorenna
10-01-2008, 01:36 AM
Law of the what????? :confused:

Corinthian
10-01-2008, 02:05 AM
Prepare to be Enlightened, Miss Endorenna. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConservationOfNinjutsu)

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
10-01-2008, 03:19 AM
What makes you think Revan is all that powerful? He was described as a brilliant strategist, and certainly a very powerful Jedi, but other than Kreia's fetishistic fixation on him, there's nothing to suggest he's all that powerful. The Law of Conservation of Ninjutsu is the real reason why Revan was able to get through all those Dark Jedi. Darth Bane understood this, which is why he created the Rule of Two, so that from then on, all Sith would be more powerful than Jedi.
what makes you think anakin is so powerful? apart from having outrageous force potential and raw power, he never acheived it.
think about it: his potential was cut down, he lost his limbs, was burnt alive, relies on a suit that was designed to not be as good as it should be to live, was totally manipulated by sidious (a fact that he acknowledges), killed the absolute love of his life (and in his mind, his kid) has no friends or relationships other than a wrinkly old sadistic prune, thus, he hates himself, like sion, is emo and deformed, and is broken inside. i could go on about how revan was a plain better person than anakin (but i have no doubt that revan wouldve also been arrogant to some point). but this is about power.
so then take them at the apexes of their power: anakin's potential was reduced. he was still formidable, and learnt much from sidious, but he never became as powerful as he couldve been, (even the cut down potential).
luke was able to defeat him with such little jedi training. (ive heard luke had the same amount of power as his father)
compare with revan: has heaps of force potential (not as much as anakin and luke) but strong. champion of the jedi order at the time. has access to jedi archives and has a strong hunger to learn to go with it. he learns from many jedi masters, to get good at everything. (probably an over achiever)
now he goes of to war. visiting many planets and has a lot of resources at his command. he can go do stuff without the council breathing down on his neck. for example if the war takes him to some planet with some dark and ancient temple, he can run around in it as much as he wants.
then he turns to the dark side... now he has access to trayus and i have no doubt he wouldve gone crazy in there. he obviosly learnt crazy sith teachings, new powers and abilities, and goodness knows what else is in there. so he excels at light, and now has knowledge of the dark. now, he would have gone to korriban or wherever and slaughtered the previous dark lord in single combat. that would mean he had enough skill in the dark (possibly) to do so. now, he has a war to fight and has no shortage of opportunities to try out his newfound sithly ruthlessness, tactics, and principles. then he loses his memory and becomes a stronger jedi than what he was before (seems to be a recurring trend with jedi...).
he goes and defeats malak, and now he has a girlfriend, which is nice and would help emotianally etc. he then regains his all lost memory and goes off to learn MORE at trayus and runs off to fight the unknown enemy. im not saying hes a god, im saying that so far, he seems to have gotten more powerful than anakin did.

Corinthian
10-01-2008, 03:25 AM
Hardly. There's no reason to believe Anakin lost any power after Mustafar, except maybe his confidence. Being a good person doesn't make you more powerful in the Force, unfortunately, as proved by Jorus C'baoth, who was an incredibly powerful Jedi despite being an arrogant scumbag.

The Suit can be modified. He doesn't have to wear it all the time, thus meaning it can be altered, modified. Rebuilt. It obviously had at least one major redesign, as evidenced by the differences between the Ep. 3 suit and the OT suit.

How does being manipulated by Sidious have anything to do with this? That's kind of what Sidious did to everyone.

Also, Luke only defeated him by going into a Force-enhanced rage. Vader obliterated him on Bespin and was winning on the Death Star II. It wasn't an 'easy victory' for Luke.

Also, you can't 'Excel at Light' and be Good at the Dark. They're a mutually exclusive power source. You can't simultaneously serve the Force and subjugate it.

TheExile
10-01-2008, 03:47 AM
Revan is better then Anakin, you grandpas!
Anakin was just a slacker, messing around here and there thinking he's important. He never trained as he should, he never respected orders as he should, he was weak and got fooled by Sidious.
Compare Anakin's brains with Revan's! Vader was clouded. Revan was always thinking pretty much the same.

Btw... R-E-V-A-N; V-A-D-E-R... V-V, E-E, R-R, A-A, D/N...

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
10-01-2008, 04:32 AM
Hardly. There's no reason to believe Anakin lost any power after Mustafar, except maybe his confidence. midichlorians.
why else would they bother mentioning anakin having over 20,000 if it didnt relate to his force potential? in th novel death star, one of the characters had a MC count of 5000, higher than an average human. this caused him to have recurring nightmares (such a cliche) and his force sensitivity caused him to be knocked out when death star blew up planet.
Being a good person doesn't make you more powerful in the Force, unfortunately, as proved by Jorus C'baoth, who was an incredibly powerful Jedi despite being an arrogant scumbag.
thats why i said "but this is about power..."
The Suit can be modified. He doesn't have to wear it all the time, thus meaning it can be altered, modified. Rebuilt. It obviously had at least one major redesign, as evidenced by the differences between the Ep. 3 suit and the OT suit. in dark lord: the rise of darth vader, he hates the suit.(im pretty sure)
How does being manipulated by Sidious have anything to do with this? That's kind of what Sidious did to everyone.
smarts. i doubt revan wouldve been so easily manipulated. why? because he was a manipulator himself! (i bet he also inherited some of it from kreia:lol:)
Also, Luke only defeated him by going into a Force-enhanced rage. Vader obliterated him on Bespin and was winning on the Death Star II. It wasn't an 'easy victory' for Luke.
i know. but then why didnt vader go into rage as well? as the chosen one, and learning from sidious of the dark side for twenty years he should be able to whoop inexperienced luke's butt and disarm him.
Also, you can't 'Excel at Light' and be Good at the Dark. They're a mutually exclusive power source. You can't simultaneously serve the Force and subjugate it.i just meant he had lightside abilities as well as darkside abilities. you can have those together. and i disagree. revan's understanding of the dark side of the force was this: he knew the dark side held strength. he could use it and become extremely powerful. but he knew the it couldnt be 'controlled'. to use the dark side is to be enslaved by it. (thinking otherwise was idiocy to him)

Corinthian
10-01-2008, 04:32 AM
No. We are not doing Numerology or some stupid crap like Anagrams.

How do you know what Revan was thinking? The only stuff that's been shown from his perspective was KotoR, which really doesn't say jack squat.

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
10-01-2008, 04:35 AM
is that a reply to my post just above it or the earlier ones...?

Corinthian
10-01-2008, 04:36 AM
No. We are not doing Numerology or some stupid crap like Anagrams.

How do you know what Revan was thinking? The only stuff that's been shown from his perspective was KotoR, which really doesn't say jack squat.

Midichlorians is a load of crap. I refuse to acknowledge them as evidence. Even in canon, there's no reason to believe that they cause the Force, merely that they indicate Force-Sensitivity.

I've read Dark Lord. Now read what I said. Notice that several times in Dark Lord, he talks about redesigning or rebuilding the suit, both in internal monologues and openly to Sidious.

How do you know? We've never seen Revan in action outside of KotoR.

Vader didn't have any reason to be enraged. You can't just switch emotions on and off at will, they don't work that way.

Revan screwed it up then, because he still fell to the Dark Side. I don't buy Kreia's BS about him never really falling. It doesn't make sense. TSL was an enormous wank to Revan's sheer awesomeness. Some people love that. I hate it.

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
10-01-2008, 04:49 AM
Midichlorians is a load of crap. I refuse to acknowledge them as evidence. Even in canon, there's no reason to believe that they cause the Force, merely that they indicate Force-Sensitivity.
well, if you arbitrarily disregard canon because you dont like it, youre arguments just lost a lot of weight.

How do you know? We've never seen Revan in action outside of KotoR.
revan teaches these principles to darth bane in path of destruction. (it was there or somewhere else...)
How do you know? We've never seen Revan in action outside of KotoR. i beg to differ. thats one of the things about the dark side: using your emotions to bolster your abilities. including anger. and what about force rage from the jk series?
Revan screwed it up then, because he still fell to the Dark Side. I don't buy Kreia's BS about him never really falling. It doesn't make sense. TSL was an enormous wank to Revan's sheer awesomeness. Some people love that. I hate it. again, disregarding canon.
revan didnt fall. he jumped. and plunged deep into it.

Inyri
10-01-2008, 04:57 AM
again, disregarding canon.
revan didnt fall. he jumped. and plunged deep into it.Making up your own canon there, it seems. :)

By the way it was never mentioned in the films that midichlorians create the Force (and other canon would contradict such a statement even if it did exist) so no one is disregarding canon "just because they want to."

In any case, few people contest the generally-accepted notion that midichlorians are the single most stupid thing that George Lucas has ever done to Star Wars. Although these days I'm wondering if Anakin's personality is coming in at a close second...

Corinthian
10-01-2008, 05:17 AM
It's not confirmed canon. Kreia is a self-admitted liar. Furthermore, she's just stating her opinion of what happened - she wasn't even there, and she's not Revan.

Midichlorians are never stated exactly WHAT their relationship to the Force is. Since their purpose is not confirmed, I ignore them, not least because I think they're a stupid and pointless concept. Next.

The Betrayer
10-01-2008, 05:36 AM
I'm wondering if Anakin's personality is coming in at a close second...
In the words of the great Maddox:
Yes, that's right. The entire reason Anakin switched to the dark side becomes unraveled when he tries to kill Padme, who was the reason he switched to the dark side to begin with. Oops! Of course, Star Wars apologists will try to point out that Anakin was already under the influence of the "dark side" at this point. So that's why the first thing he asks as Darth Vader is whether Padme is safe, right you morons?
And I'm throwing one of his images as well:
Not with that language, you aren't, and if you post one with that kind of language in it again, you'll receive another infraction. ;) --Jae
Lesson? Anakin is an idiot, big time.

Darth Hord
10-01-2008, 07:39 AM
I have a few points from different people to address. I'll get to your reply from page one. "JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan" a little later today.

1.The issue of Luke beating Vader on the Death Star II. Luke only won because Vader was not going all out on him. Also the ROTJ novel makes it clear that for the entire first half of the duel Luke is giving into his anger (aka using the darkside) but stops when the emperor taunts him. (that is when Luke says "I will not fight you father") Then Luke once again uses the darkside much more potently when he is going berserk. That battle is not a testament to his skills due him using the dark side which under normal circumstances he would not do. Furthermore he admits in "The Courtship of Princess Leia" that Vader could have killed in their final duel if he tried to.


2.Revan falling to the darkside. The only evidence to suggest that he didn't is Darth Traya, a woman who is a known liar and as far as we know hasn't (canonically)seen Revan since before his fall in the Mandalorian Wars. Revan fell for noble reasons but he wasn't the first or the last to do so. Ulic fell to try undermine the Krath from within,DE Luke fell so he could defeat the DE Sidious/undermine his military by being Sidious's apprentice. Jacen Solo fell to protect the galaxy from war but what all of them have in common is that no matter how noble their goal may have been they all fell completely to the darkside. The idea that Revan is more powerful then one side of the force and can resists its affect on him for years is absolutely ridiculous and has only a single statement from a liar to back it up. When it comes right down to it Revan was sith lord who was trying to take over the galaxy and then protect his territory from the true sith if they ever came to conquer. Furthermore have you read what he says in his holocron in POD? No one but a full fledged dark sider could have said that what he said.

TheExile
10-01-2008, 09:53 AM
And I'm throwing one of his images as well:
~snipped~
Lesson? Anakin is an idiot, big time.

AGREE AGREE AGREE!

Endorenna
10-01-2008, 11:33 AM
Okay, Anakin choking Padme'.

Anakin, as we all know, was rash, impulsive, and generally didn't think before doing something. To understand the part where he choked Padme', we must delve into his emotions a bit.

Okay, Anakin just betrayed absolutely everything he ever believed in except Padme' herself. So, he just slaughtered the Seperatist leaders, and he sees Padme'. They hug, and she starts telling him that Obi-wan has told her what he's done. She's begging him to tell her it isn't true. She can't believe he's fallen to the Dark Side! Anakin's becoming angry. He just did all this for her! She is the only thing left in life that matters to him! To him, in his Dark Side, it looks like she, too, is turning against him. Then, the clincher.

Obi-wan walks out of the ship Padme' came in.

Anakin suddenly thinks that Padme's trying to help his old master kill him! The Dark Side fills him with rage, and, being his usual impulsive self, he chokes her. Note that he doesn't choke her to death, like he does everyone else. He does release her.

After the Battle of the Heroes, he's in the suit. He finally asks, "How is Padme'? Is she all right?" When he finds out that she's dead, he flies into a rage, destroying almost everything in the room. Inside, his soul itself is crushed as much as the medical droids are. He believes that he has just murdered his wife and his child.

Enough of that. As far as the whole mideclorians thing goes, it's kinda wierd, and the Force made a lot more sense before it came along (at least to me). But it is a part of officially accepted Star Wars canon, and it's in the movies, which makes them even more canon than one of the books.

Saber-Scorpion
10-01-2008, 12:44 PM
this is becoming quite a seroius thread look there's no need to try to come up with any reasons why the other is the better one since we can never know but think about somethings for example their falling to the darkside
Revan's falling to the darkside was that he did it to save the galaxy he belived that the republic and the jedi was to weak to stand against the true sith while anakin did it to save Padme
my point is that revan is better at somethings that anakin is not that good with whilst anakin is good at somethings revan probably is not good on
if you ask me Revan was the most powerfull of his time and anakin the most powerfull of his time and we can't compare them since we know almost nothing about revan this simple to answer why we can't answer the questions of revan
Scenario 1
We have never seen Revan in lightsaber combat except from what we saw from the game and will probably never do so there is no way we can know who would win
Scenario 2
Revan was a better general than anakin but since there is 4000 year gap between their armies now well even if we would give them same tech we can't know who would win since we will never seen that war so we can't decide that either if you ask me the sithtroopers seems just as crappy as the stormtroopers
Scenario 3
Now we have never seen anakin as force potential neither revan that means we can't decide this either so there is no reason to belive that revan ownes anakin or anakin owns revan
scenario 4
i won't even answer this
Scenario 5
We will never know this either if you seen my the comments above we don't really need this scenario

Astor
10-01-2008, 12:48 PM
Given the title, could I suggest that we discard Darth Vader? It's Anakin versus Revan, and Anakin Skywalker ceased to exist before Darth Vader.

Inyri
10-01-2008, 12:50 PM
So basically your whole post boils down to "I'm not answering any of these questions"?

Star Wars is fictional. It doesn't matter that the armies are 4000 years apart; apply some creative thinking. :)

Anakin Skywalker ceased to exist before Darth Vader.Ceased to exist after...? And despite what deep dramatic things people say, Darth Vader is still Anakin Skywalker. :)

Astor
10-01-2008, 12:56 PM
Ceased to exist after...? And despite what deep dramatic things people say, Darth Vader is still Anakin Skywalker. :)

Come on, Inyri... while yes, you are technically right, Anakin isn't around after Order 66. It's Vader then, and they are, for many, (especially because of the widespread hatred of Anakin's portrayal), two completely different people.

Vader was a a bad-mutha-sith, while Anakin was a whiny, angsty teenager (not necessarily, but he was a lot different to the man he would become.).

Also, aren't these Revan vs... threads getting a little old?

Jae Onasi
10-01-2008, 01:23 PM
On the midichlorian thing--it just reminds me of mitochondria, so I can work with it.

Inyri
10-01-2008, 01:31 PM
I think midichlorians are an insult to mitochondria. :(

Giant Graffiti
10-01-2008, 02:29 PM
I know this is late, but they would kill each other on every scenario. Why? Because it is a matter of fanboyism, and I don't like either of them.

Corinthian
10-01-2008, 04:06 PM
You people keep assuming Vader would lose the tactical scenario, ignoring the fact that he was considered to also be a brilliant strategist. He didn't become Executor of Imperial Forces because he was incompetent.

TKA-001
10-01-2008, 04:31 PM
Exactly how brilliant a strategist was Vader? Not equal to Thrawn, I assume.

Corinthian
10-01-2008, 04:35 PM
Probably not. But then, there's no reason to believe that Revan was as good as Thrawn either. Thrawn's most incredible ability was nearly plucking victory out of the grasp of the New Republic despite facing equal numbers of enemies who were better trained, better equipped, and better motivated. Admittedly, he was able to reverse all three with the Mount Tantiss Project, the capture of most of the Katana Fleet, and his own inspiring presence, but during the early days of the war, during the attack on Sluis Van, for example, none of those three had taken effect and Thrawn still does a terrible amount of damage.

Revan, on the other hand, was facing lesser numbers of worse equipped and worse trained enemy troops, as he had taken most of the Republic Military into the Unknown Regions with him. Furthermore, he had probably an equivalent number of Dark Jedi, AND he had the Star Forge. I'm sure he was a very skilled strategist, but he didn't need to be Thrawn to crush the Republic.

thundrfang1
10-01-2008, 07:57 PM
so does vader. but *i* firmly believe the sith'ari is revan's student, Darth Bane.
I doubt its vader because he raised an imperial empire and not a sith empire but anyway I think your right. Darth bane is probably the sith'ari.

Corinthian
10-01-2008, 08:02 PM
Vader fits the mold best. Not that it really matters.

thundrfang1
10-01-2008, 08:13 PM
Only Force Sensitive people can, and Boba Fett was not Force Sensitive.
Sorry but what about General Grevious. He wasn't force sensitive. he was just trained by count dooku

Corinthian
10-01-2008, 08:25 PM
You just need special training to use a lightsaber effectively. Besides, if you're very careful with it, even an untrained wielder could use it without hurting himself, for example, when Han used it to cut open a tauntaun or when he used one while fighting Killiks.

TKA-001
10-01-2008, 10:02 PM
I doubt its Vader because he raised an Imperial empire and not a Sith empire
What exactly is the difference between Sidious' empire and Revan/Malak's empire?

Endorenna
10-01-2008, 10:36 PM
Sorry but what about General Grevious. He wasn't force sensitive. he was just trained by count dooku

General Grievous was a special case. He had special systems and protocols built in to allow him to effectively wield a lightsaber. His sensor array was so advanced that he could sense when a lightsaber was coming at him, so he could block it.

In that post, I was mostly trying to say that Boba Fett wouldn't have survived a lightsaber bout with Darth Vader (aka The Chosen One who happened to have a really, really strong connection with the Force). :)

Rabish Bini
10-02-2008, 01:29 AM
What exactly is the difference between Sidious' empire and Revan/Malak's empire?
Revan's Empire had Dark Jedi, while Vader's Empire just had Stormtroopers, soldiers and stuff

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
10-02-2008, 02:37 AM
Making up your own canon there, it seems.
It's not confirmed canon. Kreia is a self-admitted liar.
right. she is a liar. and i hate her around the same as i hate atris. but understand this: the writers would have undoubtedly known that by making exile the PC, they would be disappointing a few people who were expecting the old k1 gang. so what can they do? they know there are fans dying to know what happens to revan. so the explain. through kreia's dialogue about him. now, with so many people already annoyed with them and tsl for its plot and cut content etc, would they go establish that all the stuff they were feeding already angry fans about revan was garbage?
(but yknow, imo theyll probably bring revan down a few notches just to make anakin seem stronger. because, well, they spent a lot of money on the movies and theyll want to protect that investment. :rolleye1: )
Furthermore, she's just stating her opinion of what happened - she wasn't even there, and she's not Revan.
The only evidence to suggest that he didn't is Darth Traya, a woman who is a known liar and as far as we know hasn't (canonically)seen Revan since before his fall in the Mandalorian Wars.
really? kreia said that revan came to her both "before and after revan found himself" "... after he was learning he was more than he was told" and she said in (yes in:lol:) malachor that he didnt ask her to go to wherever he was going. and that she remained there to show others the way.
By the way it was never mentioned in the films that midichlorians create the Force (and other canon would contradict such a statement even if it did exist)
no, they dont. they are the link between the sentient and the force.
qui gon said "without them we would have no knowledge of the force"
Then Luke once again uses the darkside much more potently when he is going berserk. yeah. but it seems kinda strange that a dark lord of the sith with 20 years of experience and learning, etc, lost his arm to a jedi that had like, two years of training. i mean wouldnt it have made more sense to disarm luke, and then try to turn to the dark side? (look at bastila)
The idea that Revan is more powerful then one side of the force and can resists its affect on him for years is absolutely ridiculous and has only a single statement from a liar to back it up. When it comes right down to it Revan was sith lord who was trying to take over the galaxy and then protect his territory from the true sith if they ever came to conquer. Furthermore have you read what he says in his holocron in POD? No one but a full fledged dark sider could have said that what he said.
im not saying he isnt dark! kreia's statement doesnt mean that. he turned to the dark side. then, after tasting its power delved into it. by the strike team vs revan duel, he's be as dark as you get,
there's no reason to believe that Revan was as good as Thrawn either. Revan, on the other hand, was facing lesser numbers of worse equipped and worse trained enemy troops, as he had taken most of the Republic Military into the Unknown Regions with him. Furthermore, he had probably an equivalent number of Dark Jedi, AND he had the Star Forge. I'm sure he was a very skilled strategist, but he didn't need to be Thrawn to crush the Republic.
the mando wars, not the jedi civil war was the testament to revan's strategic ability.

TKA-001
10-02-2008, 11:42 AM
Revan's Empire had Dark Jedi, while Vader's Empire just had Stormtroopers, soldiers and stuff
First of all, saying that the Empire "just had stormtroopers, soldiers and stuff" doesn't really say anything, because doing so implies that Revan/Malak's doesn't when it clearly does.

Second, Palpatine's Empire did have Dark Jedi - plenty of them. There were the Inquisitors, whose specialty was eliminating Force-sensitives, interrogation, and other Intelligence-related matters. There were also the Emperor's Hands, who were assassins who carried out low-profile missions for Palpatine. Then there were the Prophets of the Dark Side, who sought out Force-sensitives within the Empire, and also occasionally acted as advisors for the Emperor. After that, there's the Emperor's Shadow Guards, who hunted fugitive Jedi during the Purge. Finally, there's just the miscellaneous lesser Dark Jedi who held other positions in the Empire.

The difference between the Dark Jedi in Palpatine's empire and those in Revan and Malak's is that Palpatine's actually served a purpose, instead of just being random Force adepts running around. And of course, Palpy's Dark Jedi were not as well-known, since the Empire encouraged the general public to believe that the Force didn't even exist.

the mando wars, not the jedi civil war was the testament to revan's strategic ability.
Actually, contrary to popular belief, the Mandalorians were weaker and less numerous than the Republic fleet (see statements from Canderous in KOTOR 1).

mattig89ch
10-02-2008, 12:23 PM
Scenario 1: Revan, he was a gaurdian.

Scenario 2: Revan would use the star forge to overwhelm the imperial army (including the death star).

Scenario 3: Anakin, the more medichlorians the better. And Anakin could beat Yoda in a force match.

Scenario 4: Anakin, nuff said.

Scenario 5: I would have to say it'd be Revan, becuase he's a full fleged Jedi while Anakin never made it past padawan.

Saber-Scorpion
10-02-2008, 02:22 PM
Mattig89ch on sceenario 5 you are wrong anakin became a jedi knight and would probably win revan easy the reason all think Revan is invinceble and most powerfull jedi ever is the simple reason is this one because we played revan as we wanted him/her to be so it's because we feel like we are revan when we play the game but now i like revan to but he won't win against anakin that is quite a simple fact also anakin is the most powerfull force user since he was created by the force no through the normal way to prove that anakin is stronger look at this

Midichlorian Count List for the major Star Wars characters

Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader = 27,700
Darth Sidious/Palpatine (with Kyber Crystal) = 20,500
Yoda = 17,700
Luke Skywalker = 14,500
Leia Organa Solo = 14,500
Aenon Jurtis (Most powerful Jedi Master prior to Yoda) = 14,200
Shintor Beerus (Ancient Jedi Master) = 13,900
Ce Ce Denowai (The Most Powerful Female Jedi) = 13,700
Ben (Jhon) Skywalker = 13,700
Anakin Solo (Son of Leia and Han Solo) = 13,700
Count Dooku/Darth Tyranus = 13,500
Obi-Wan Kenobi = 13,400
Kaja Sinis (The First Jedi) = 13,250
Kyle Katarn = 12,200
Mace Windu = 12,000
Darth Maul = 12,000
General Grievous (New Episode 3 Villain) = 11,900
Kit Fisto = 11,800
Exar Kun (Dark Lord of the Sith during the Sith War) = 11,700
Shindor = 11,500 (Dark Jedi from Episode 7)
Yaddle = 11,300
Xanatos' (Qui-Gon Jinn's former apprentice) = 11,300
Darth Seer (Founder of the modern Sith Order) = 11,200
Plo Koon = 11,100
Mara Jade = 11,000
Darth Revan (Knights of the Old Republic video game) = 10,800
Jedi Master Corran Horn (from the New Jedi Order series of Star Wars novels) = 10,700
Ki Adi Mundu = 10,600
Darth Bane = 10,500
Nebar Foxis (Jedi Knight played by SuperShadow in Episode 3) = 10,400
Joruus C'baoth = 10,350
Darth Imperius (Darth Sidious' Master) = 10,300
Shaak Ti = 10,300
Tahari Vehlia (New Jedi Order novels) = 10,300
Echuu-Shen Jon = 10,200
Darth Malak = 10,200 (Knights of the Old Republic video game)
Jedi Master Kam Solusar (New Jedi Order novels) = 10,100
Aalya Secura = 10,000
Qui-Gon Jinn = 10,000
Average Jedi = 10,000
Assajj Ventress (Sith Warrior During Clone Wars) = 9,600
Naga Sadow (Dark Lord of the Sith that fled to Yavin 4)= 9,400
Jedi Master Adeus Hust = 9,300
Jacen Solo (Son of Leia and Han Solo) = 9,000
Jaina Solo (Daughter of Leia and Han Solo) = 9,000
Jedi Master Cihgal (New Jedi Order novels) = 9,000
Darth Rage (Sidious' apprentice after Darth Maul) = 9,000
Jedi Master Tionne Solusar (New Jedi Order novels) = 8,500
Dezar Looger (Dagobah Dark Jedi) = 8,400
Xio Jade = 7,400
Chewbacca = 7,200
Tylus Liv = 7,100
Aurra Sing = 7,000
Need To be Considered for Training as a Jedi = 7,000
Padme Amidala = 4,700
Danni Quee (New Jedi Order Jedi Scientist)= 4,500
Beru Lars = 3,700
Shmi = 3,300
Lando Calsarrian = 3,300
Boba Fett= 1,500
Han Solo = 1,500
Jango Fett = 1,500
Owen Lars = 1,500

here is the list of midichlorian count fro every major charater now if you still belive revan is most powerfull listen to this
Anakin would have been the most powerfull jedi ever that's the fact and nothing can change that but to prove who's the most powerfull jedi and sith look at this

Most Powerful Jedi:
1. Luke Skywalker
2. Yoda
3. Aenon Jurtis (Ancient Jedi Master)
4. Obi-Wan Kenobi
5. Kaja Sinis (First Jedi and Founder of the Jedi Order)
6. Mace Windu
7. Ben Skywalker (Son of Luke Skywalker and Mara Jade)
8. Plo Koon
9. Anakin Skywalker
10. Ce Ce Denowai (Most Powerful Female Jedi)
11. Kyle Katarn
12. Ki-Adi Mundi
13. Leia Solo
14. Mara Jade Skywalker
15. Kit Fisto


Most Powerful Sith:
1. Darth Sidious with Kyber Crystal
2. Darth Vader
3. Darth Bane
4. Darth Seer
5. Darth Tyranus
6. Darth Rage (Sidious' Apprentice after Maul)
7. Darth Maul
8. Darth Scarz (Founder of Sith Order)
9. Darth Revan
10. Darth Imperius (Sidious' Master)
11. Darth Ghore
12. Darth Vak
13. Darth Slane
14. Darth Vicrone
15. Darth Malak

mattig89ch
10-02-2008, 02:33 PM
I don't think he ever underwent the trials to become a Jedi. I'm not saying that he wasn't powerful, but he didn't have the training that Revan had. That's why I think that Revan would win in a fight to the death.

Saber-Scorpion
10-02-2008, 02:47 PM
if you mean trials obi wan was knighted when he defeated darth maul and to prove anakin was knighted look at this
"Step forward, Padawan. Anakin Skywalker, by the right of the Council, by the will of the Force, dub thee I do… Jedi… Knight of the Republic." yoda
this is from wookiepedia "After his heroic actions at the Battle of Praesitlyn and upon returning from the Mission to Vjun,[18] Anakin was endowed with the title of Jedi Knight, despite the fact that he never went through the traditional Jedi Trials before being Knighted. It was a controversial decision; Kit Fisto and Ki-Adi-Mundi openly and zealously supported him, while Oppo Rancisis and Adi Gallia questioned whether Skywalker was mature enough. But in the end, the decision fell to Yoda, who decided to have him Knighted in a secret ceremony. Anakin later sent his Padawan braid, which had been ritualistically severed by Yoda, to Padmé as a late devotion gift.

Endorenna
10-02-2008, 03:14 PM
Hmm...according to that list of mideclorian counts, Luke had barely half of Anakin's (Darth Vader's) Force potential, Jaina and Jacen had far less than an average Jedi, and General Grievous was Force-Sensitive. I'm sorry, but something definitely seems wrong with this. Where did you get that list?

Saber-Scorpion
10-02-2008, 03:26 PM
as stated luke has less midichlorian then sidious dosen't mean that he is weaker in the force but if you check the two other lists i put there you see luke was most powerfull jedi and so sidious most powerfull sith

RyuuKage
10-02-2008, 03:32 PM
Midichlorian Count List for the major Star Wars characters

you did NOT just quote Supershadow's midichlorian list...just so you know, he made up all those numbers, just like everything else on his site, lol.

Saber-Scorpion
10-02-2008, 03:34 PM
well i don't know who he is but i ddin't get them from his site

Darth Hord
10-02-2008, 03:50 PM
well i don't know who he is but i ddin't get them from his site

That list is a 100% false. Supershadow is man who pretends to play a major role in SW (and indy?) and he claims to best buddy buddy with George Lucas but is a complete liar. Here is some more info http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/SuperShadow

Endorenna
10-02-2008, 06:42 PM
Oh, brother. I just read the article. :¬: That guy (or guys) has some seeeeerious issues. Who could believe him, especially after the bit about the 'script' for 'Episode VII'. A two-year-old fighting Dark Jedi? I don't care how strong someone is in the Force, a two-year-old cannot fight Dark Jedi and win. That's just stupid, IMO.

Lance Monance
10-02-2008, 07:07 PM
Revan vs Anakin. Well Anakin pretty much wins vs anyone we didn't see him lose against in canon material. Because George Lucas says so.
But then again, it doesn't make a lot of sense to compare movie characters to EU characters. The whole chosen one thing doesn't seem to make any sense when you acknowledge that the dark force/Sithlords exist before and after Anakin.

So there are two ways to settle this..either go with canon statements such us "Anakin Skywalker is the most powerful Jedi. Ever." or imagine the battle between Revan and Anakin yourself. Take a look at how the characters are portrayed to determine their power.


That said, I believe that Revan was more capable than ep 3 Anakin in almost every way.

TKA-001
10-02-2008, 07:53 PM
go with canon statements such us "Anakin Skywalker is the most powerful Jedi. Ever."
Source?

Darth Hord
10-02-2008, 09:47 PM
I too would like to know the source( and the exact quote) that states Anakin is the most powerful jedi ever. I am aware that Mace speculates as much(it might have been of Anakin's generation) though. Anakin will most likely win the saber duel but a force duel has no where near the knowledge that Revan had or the mastery either. An all out can go either way if Anakin goes "in the zone" like he did vs Dooku but he would get royally screwed if Revan uses the force.

TKA-001
10-02-2008, 10:09 PM
I too would like to know the source( and the exact quote)
I'm more interested in the canonical source, not the quote.

Corinthian
10-02-2008, 10:10 PM
You guys are really underestimating the raw power of a completed Death Star. Or maybe you're overestimating the power of the Star Forge fleet. Let me remind you that the Republic Fleet was able to defeat a Star Forge fleet that significantly outnumbered them only by getting the advantage of Battle Meditation. Star Forge ships are pretty clearly not all that good.

Litofsky
10-02-2008, 11:06 PM
You guys are really underestimating the raw power of a completed Death Star. Or maybe you're overestimating the power of the Star Forge fleet. Let me remind you that the Republic Fleet was able to defeat a Star Forge fleet that significantly outnumbered them only by getting the advantage of Battle Meditation. Star Forge ships are pretty clearly not all that good.

Or Battle Meditation (which is powered by The Force) is just much more influential in a battle than a fleet of cruisers or destroyers.

Corinthian
10-02-2008, 11:42 PM
Hardly. It doesn't matter how good someone is at Battle Meditation when they're facing a nigh-invincible battle station that can one-shot any ship in existence that isn't the Sun Crusher - and it even disabled that thing, not to mention a general 4000-year advantage. Besides, Revan can't Battle-Meditate, whereas Palpatine is quite skilled at it, as is Joruus C'baoth. So, yeah, Revan is hosed.

Rabish Bini
10-03-2008, 12:36 AM
First of all, saying that the Empire "just had stormtroopers, soldiers and stuff" doesn't really say anything, because doing so implies that Revan/Malak's doesn't when it clearly does.

Second, Palpatine's Empire did have Dark Jedi - plenty of them. There were the Inquisitors, whose specialty was eliminating Force-sensitives, interrogation, and other Intelligence-related matters. There were also the Emperor's Hands, who were assassins who carried out low-profile missions for Palpatine. Then there were the Prophets of the Dark Side, who sought out Force-sensitives within the Empire, and also occasionally acted as advisors for the Emperor. After that, there's the Emperor's Shadow Guards, who hunted fugitive Jedi during the Purge. Finally, there's just the miscellaneous lesser Dark Jedi who held other positions in the Empire.

The difference between the Dark Jedi in Palpatine's empire and those in Revan and Malak's is that Palpatine's actually served a purpose, instead of just being random Force adepts running around. And of course, Palpy's Dark Jedi were not as well-known, since the Empire encouraged the general public to believe that the Force didn't even exist.
I'm not going by EU, I'm going by movies, I don't remember seeing "inquisitors" in the movies.
I don't remember seeing Revan's army have Stormtroopers/Clonetroopers either.

Corinthian
10-03-2008, 12:39 AM
You don't really have a choice but to go by EU - if you ignore the EU, Revan doesn't even exist.

And Revan's army had Sith Troopers, you know, the guys in white armor with the gold visors? Yeah. Those are his Stormtroopers.

RedHawke
10-03-2008, 01:07 AM
That list is a 100% false. Supershadow is man who pretends to play a major role in SW (and indy?) and he claims to best buddy buddy with George Lucas but is a complete liar. Here is some more info http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/SuperShadow
Word!

well i don't know who he is but i ddin't get them from his site
Quoting Supershadow makes you lose any and all credibility in an argument in some areas of this forum, even if you didn't know, so steer clear of his 'sources', or others re-prints of his 'information'. Just FYI.

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
10-03-2008, 02:36 AM
oh wow. that site is such a joke. how anyone would believe that junk is beyond me. the moment i loaded that page alarm bells went off in my head. i mean, just *look* at it! the layout, the banners, the coloring... thats the kind of looking site that does stuff like downloads garbage onto your computer. i had a little look around ran off quick. now im annoyed that i actually gave that junkyard hits.:hurk:
the list that saberscorpion posted is the same as on the site.
obviously scorpion didnt know about this and its an honest mistake (yes?) what site did you copy/paste it from? i think ive seen this on some people's social networking site pages... people doing roleplay and giving themselves a 100,000 MC count. oh boy.

anyway,
Scenario 1: Revan, he was a gaurdian.
how do you know that? as far as i know, revan's class etc, hasnt been confirmed. anakin was a jedi guardian.

any objections to the points in my last post?

Saber-Scorpion
10-03-2008, 05:41 AM
i am sorry for posting the midichlorian list and so i got it from my friend so i thought it my help but as i saw it's not sothe easiest way to decide this is to call it a draw nobody of them would win if you ask me i think revan is very much based on anakin and they think the quite same way i think they would join forces

Endorenna
10-03-2008, 08:54 AM
^
They probably would! :lol:

Thanatos9t
10-03-2008, 08:56 AM
You guys are really underestimating the raw power of a completed Death Star. Or maybe you're overestimating the power of the Star Forge fleet. Let me remind you that the Republic Fleet was able to defeat a Star Forge fleet that significantly outnumbered them only by getting the advantage of Battle Meditation. Star Forge ships are pretty clearly not all that good.

Yeah but the Death Star was blown up by a single proton torpedo into an exaust port :xp:.

Also the attack on the Death Star was mostly composed of small fighters like the X-Wing.

It took multiple battleships to destroy the Star Forge, and as you said the Republic only destroyed it due to Bastila's Battle Meditation and that was with an armada of battleships and fighters so I wouldn't exactly call the Star Forge ships "clearly" not that good if anything they are stronger than the Republic equivilents.

The Betrayer
10-03-2008, 09:32 AM
Yeah but the Death Star was blown up by a single proton torpedo into an exaust port :xp:.

Also the attack on the Death Star was mostly composed of small fighters like the X-Wing.

It took multiple battleships to destroy the Star Forge, and as you said the Republic only destroyed it due to Bastila's Battle Meditation and that was with an armada of battleships and fighters so I wouldn't exactly call the Star Forge ships "clearly" not that good if anything they are stronger than the Republic equivilents.
Agreed. Plus with it's droid production, the Star Forge is a powerful weapon.

Astor
10-03-2008, 09:51 AM
Plus with it's droid production, the Star Forge is a powerful weapon.

To paraphrase Darth Vader, the ability to create an endless army of droids is insignificant next to the power of the Death Star.

mattig89ch
10-03-2008, 10:09 AM
Ah, but the endless army of droids could overwhelm an army not trained for it. Remember, the clones were trained to fight droids, and had jedi to help them. If it came down to a fight of droids v clones, then the droids would win.

Astor
10-03-2008, 11:28 AM
Ah, but the endless army of droids could overwhelm an army not trained for it. Remember, the clones were trained to fight droids, and had jedi to help them. If it came down to a fight of droids v clones, then the droids would win.

You've completely missed my point. So what if they can create endless droids and ships? The Death Star laser can destroy an entire planet - it'd have no problem with obliterating a puny, several thousand year old space station.

Hell, with a few of Admiral Daala's secret weapons, the Star Forge might even lose it's energy source. Sun Crushers, anyone?

TKA-001
10-03-2008, 12:16 PM
Yeah but the Death Star was blown up by a single proton torpedo into an exaust port .

Also the attack on the Death Star was mostly composed of small fighters like the X-Wing.
What is that supposed to prove?

The only reason the rebels even attempted to attack Death Star I is because they knew its weakness, and they never would have figured out about the weakness if the thing's plans hadn't been stolen by them. Of course it was destroyed by two proton torpedoes sent down its exhaust port - that was its weakness.

Obviously, even knowing about the exhaust port wouldn't have done the rebels any good if not for Tarkin's overconfidence - he totally ignored the rebel fighters despite his subordinate's warning. The Death Star had thousands of TIE Fighters in its hangars, and if he launched them, the mere 30 rebels would have been completely annihilated, Force-assisted pilot or not. Vader knew better, obviously, and had his personal fighter squadron launched under his own authority. The rest is history.

I hate it when people take a single fact out of canon and try to use it as proof of their point, while at the same time ignoring the context of said fact.

Ah, but the endless army of droids could overwhelm an army not trained for it. Remember, the clones were trained to fight droids, and had jedi to help them. If it came down to a fight of droids v clones, then the droids would win.
As for the "limitless armies and fleets" myth - do you seriously propose that the Sith had infinite droids and ships? That's impossible, because there's not enough space onboard their ships for an infinite amount of droids, and they don't have enough men to crew an infinite number of ships. Therefore, they can't have more ships or droids than a certain peak amount, and that peak amount was larger than the fleet of the Republic during the Jedi Civil War. In regards to the "unlimited droids" myth - if the battle droids of the Sith Empire were so high in numbers and useful in the war, then why do the regular Sith soldiers outnumber them by a ratio of (at least) 12:1?

Thanatos9t
10-03-2008, 04:11 PM
The Death Star had thousands of TIE Fighters in its hangars, and if he launched them, the mere 30 rebels would have been completely annihilated, Force-assisted pilot or not. Vader knew better, obviously, and had his personal fighter squadron launched under his own authority. The rest is history.

I hate it when people take a single fact out of canon and try to use it as proof of their point, while at the same time ignoring the context of said fact.
Yeah but this whole topic is out of context: Revan (maybe Darth?) vs Pre-Vader Anakin with the Death Star II, doesn't that seem a bit odd to you?

And where exactly is it said that the Death Star had thousands of fighters?

I don't remember even the larger Death Star II which was expecting a full scale assault launch more than 50 if that.

Astor
10-03-2008, 04:45 PM
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Death_Star_I

Check the info bar. 7,000 starfighters.

TKA-001
10-03-2008, 05:38 PM
Yeah but this whole topic is out of context: Revan (maybe Darth?) vs Pre-Vader Anakin with the Death Star II, doesn't that seem a bit odd to you?
The entire topic is ludicrous from my viewpoint. If you'll notice, I never said anything about which of the two would win in a fight. I'm only debating what isn't totally arbitrary.

I don't remember even the larger Death Star II which was expecting a full scale assault launch more than 50 if that.
I've never heard of a source which indicates that the Death Star II launched fighters at all. With the presence of the Imperial fleet, however, I don't see why it would need to.

Feagildin
10-03-2008, 06:35 PM
I think we all need to take into account something very, very important: even in fiction, this fight could NEVER HAPPEN. Period. There is NO WAY Revan would ever survive long enough to fight Anakin. Besides the fact that it didn't happen. Stop taking it quite so seriously and post your opinions on the actual topic. That's my suggestion. Peace!:Pir2:

Inyri
10-03-2008, 06:40 PM
I've never heard of a source which indicates that the Death Star II launched fighters at all. With the presence of the Imperial fleet, however, I don't see why it would need to.Being as how the battlestation hadn't been completed yet it's more than likely that it didn't have a contingent of starfighters yet. I would imagine that, being as how the Emperor was already aware of the Rebel assault, he would have just brought the fleet in and not transferred any starfighters, since it would just be a wasted effort. No need to move them when they're already there. :)

Corinthian
10-03-2008, 06:44 PM
Besides, the Death Star II was immune to a Trench Run Attack, the Thermal Exhaust port had been replaced with an alternate exhaust system that was immune to TRD.

Keep in mind that no matter how fast the Star Forge can build stuff, the laws of physics dictate that it cannot create an infinite army. You cannot create something out of nothing.

Lance Monance
10-03-2008, 07:44 PM
Source?

I was under the impression that Lucas said that at one point (something alone those lines, not my made up quote). Apparently not?

Revan 411
10-03-2008, 07:49 PM
Who do you think would win in a fight, Anakin or Revan? Anakin is not at full potential. He is only at the potential that he is in in episode 3.

Scenario 1: Lightsabers only. No melee, blasters, or force powers.

Scenario 2: War. Anakin controls the Imperial Army (including the Death Star 2), and Revan controls the Star Forges sith army.

Scenario 3: Force battle. Force powers only.

Scenario 4: Padme is being held hostage by Revan, and Bastilla is being held hostage by Anakin.

Scenario 5: All out battle. Fight to the death. Each uses whatever needed to win (except their army).

Ok, thats about it. Guive reasons and let the battle begin!

1. Revan would win this one. Because, his style with the lightsaber is much better handled then Anakin's.

2. Hard to say, but my vote go's to Revan. Because the Star Forge (In my opinion) is a much more powerful space station then the Death Star. And the sith army has a more protection armor then the Imperial's.

3. Oh, Revan would win this one. He use's more force powers then Anakin does.

4. Eh.. hard to say. I guess they both win on that one.

5. I guess, they both lose on that one.

Thanatos9t
10-03-2008, 07:49 PM
Keep in mind that no matter how fast the Star Forge can build stuff, the laws of physics dictate that it cannot create an infinite army. You cannot create something out of nothing.

You are aware that this is Star Wars the laws of physics doesn't exactly apply...

Doesn't the Star Forge convert matter from a star using the Dark Side to convert the base elements into ships and Droids?

So in theory as long as you had a star you had enough material to create the droids/ships.

Lance Monance
10-03-2008, 07:55 PM
You cannot create something out of nothing.

What about the Force?

The Betrayer
10-03-2008, 08:04 PM
You are aware that this is Star Wars the laws of physics doesn't exactly apply...

Doesn't the Star Forge convert matter from a star using the Dark Side to convert the base elements into ships and Droids?

So in theory as long as you had a star you had enough material to create the droids/ships.

Indeed. As in the last part of KotOR,
I quote:
Malak knew that his Sith underlings would be no match for Revan, but they would be able to slow Revan down, giving Malak enough time to set up the Star Forge's defenses, which were infinite battle droids constantly created by the Star Forge. Revan defeated the garrison, acquired some Star Forge Robes, and took the elevator to the Command Center.

Also, the Empire wouldn't be able to attack the station effectively, the reason being;
Internally, the Star Forge was also capable of manufacturing thousands of battle droids for defense, and possessed several heavy blast doors that ran throughout the entire factory. It was also protected by a deadly ship-disabling energy field projected from Lehon's Temple of the Ancients on the Rakata homeworld nearby. The field caused ships to malfunction and be captured in the planet's gravity well, sending them spiraling down to the world below.

Now to prove that the Star Forge creates ships using Dark Side energies:
The Star Forge, now a fusion of technology and dark side energies, began corrupting the Rakata in order to gain the immense power it required to operate itself and ultimately caused the collapse of the Rakatan Empire.

TKA-001
10-03-2008, 09:40 PM
You are aware that this is Star Wars the laws of physics doesn't exactly apply...
Not only is this a red herring argument, but the laws of physics in Star Wars only differ from those in real life when they are directly shown to be different.

What about the Force?
Last time I checked, the Force is described as a thing.

which were infinite battle droids constantly created by the Star Forge.
You can't have an infinite number of objects within a finite space.

Also, the Empire wouldn't be able to attack the station effectively, the reason being;

"Internally, the Star Forge was also capable of manufacturing thousands of battle droids for defense, and possessed several heavy blast doors that ran throughout the entire factory. It was also protected by a deadly ship-disabling energy field projected from Lehon's Temple of the Ancients on the Rakata homeworld nearby. The field caused ships to malfunction and be captured in the planet's gravity well, sending them spiraling down to the world below."
If the Republic could attack the Star Forge, then why wouldn't anyone else be able to by the same means as they? Besides, if said field couldn't be avoided, then why wasn't the Sith fleet or the Star Forge itself affected by it?

The Betrayer
10-03-2008, 11:19 PM
You can't have an infinite number of objects within a finite space.
That is correct, but it doesn't say there that the Star Forge has an infinite number of droids, it says it can create an infinite number of droids. Now I don't think Revan would be so stupid as to order the Star Forge to create an infinite amount of droids, he'd just order the replacement of those who were destroyed.

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
10-04-2008, 01:07 AM
Now, then: infinite fleets? no. its *possible* for the star forge to create infinite ships, but no one would do that. they'd create heaps of ships, but and infinite amount. they couldnt truly have "infinite" fleets, because theyd run out of space. but they'd have heck of a lot of them, cause galaxy is huge.
Yeah but this whole topic is out of context: Revan (maybe Darth?) vs Pre-Vader Anakin with the Death Star II, doesn't that seem a bit odd to you?
The entire topic is ludicrous from my viewpoint. If you'll notice, I never said anything about which of the two would win in a fight. I'm only debating what isn't totally arbitrary.
I think we all need to take into account something very, very important: even in fiction, this fight could NEVER HAPPEN. Period. There is NO WAY Revan would ever survive long enough to fight Anakin. Besides the fact that it didn't happen. Stop taking it quite so seriously and post your opinions on the actual topic. That's my suggestion. Peace!
we know it wouldnt happen. but come on, people! dont douse the fun! there's no reason not to discuss it!

uh, since there are no objections to my ealier post, id take it that what i said is correct...?

Corinthian
10-04-2008, 01:16 AM
*Snort* It doesn't matter how fast the Star Forge can construct droids, by the time you're able to create an army capable of conquering an entire populated galaxy with it, you will have eaten that star several times over. Besides, I'm pretty sure it would supernova long before you ate it all as the gravity of the sun was reduced.

Endorenna
10-04-2008, 03:11 AM
Besides, if said field couldn't be avoided, then why wasn't the Sith fleet or the Star Forge itself affected by it?

In KOTOR 1, it is stated that they (Sith fleet/Star Forge) had something built into them which made them immune to the field. Revan probably figured out how to make said something when he studied the field on the Rakatan planet. Also, the Sith would have to be immune to the field if they had all those Dark Jedi in the temple. One other thing that indicates the 'immunity to the death trap' was the fact that Malak was torturing Bastilla in the Rakatan Temple.

By the time you're able to create an army capable of conquering an entire populated galaxy with it, you will have eaten that star several times over.

Do you know how much matter is in the Star Forge's star? At what rate does a fully operating Star Forge eat stars?

The Betrayer
10-04-2008, 03:28 AM
The Star Forge was a giant automated shipyard, designed to create the most powerful army of all time, constructed by the Rakatan Infinite Empire in 30,000 BBY, five thousand years before the rise of the Galactic Republic.
The Star Forge was able to work for about 26,000 years without draining the sun completely. I don't think producing a huge number of droids/ships would eat the sun.

Christos K
10-04-2008, 04:47 AM
It would be a tie. Anakin (Before Sith Lord) Had the potential to be the most powerful. As where Revan became the most powerful of his/her time. There is a slight more chance that Revan would win since no one knows what his/her limits are either.

TKA-001
10-04-2008, 11:00 AM
In KOTOR 1, it is stated that they (Sith fleet/Star Forge) had something built into them which made them immune to the field.
Who says this and where?

The Star Forge was able to work for about 26,000 years without draining the sun completely. I don't think producing a huge number of droids/ships would eat the sun.
The Star Forge was not drawing from the Sun for 26,000 years. Nobody was controlling it for 26,000 years; it was just sitting there.

Endorenna
10-04-2008, 01:30 PM
Who says this and where?

I believe it was Carth just after the Ebon Hawk crashed on the Unknown World. He said something about the Sith fighters not getting pulled down, so they had to have an immunity to the field. Right alongside it, he said that Revan needed to get the field down before the Republic Fleet got there, or they'd be pulled down, too.

Ah, there's another point! When the Death Star got within firing range on the Star Forge (if it got that far), it would get shut down by the field and smash into the Unknown World, along with whatever fleet it brought with it.


The Star Forge was not drawing from the Sun for 26,000 years. Nobody was controlling it for 26,000 years; it was just sitting there.

Good point. However, the Rakata managed to make enough droids/ships/etc. to conquer the galaxy. Revan has several million troops, according to the arms dealer on Korriban. The Rakatan planet isn't very big. They probably had no more people than Revan did. They still beat everyone.

TKA-001
10-04-2008, 02:17 PM
Ah, there's another point! When the Death Star got within firing range on the Star Forge (if it got that far), it would get shut down by the field and smash into the Unknown World, along with whatever fleet it brought with it.
That's only speculation. Who's to say that the Death Star would definitely be taken down by it? The thing's pretty freaking huge and we know next to nothing about how the field works, anyway.

Aside from that, what range does the Death Star's superlaser have? It might not even need to go through this field thing to get within range of whatever it wants to blow up.

However, the Rakata managed to make enough droids/ships/etc. to conquer the galaxy.
Conquer the galaxy? The Infinite Empire controlled only about 500 planets at its height. That's pretty small compared to the Republic as of TPM.

Revan has several million troops, according to the arms dealer on Korriban.
There's no way the army of a major galactic power at that point in time could be so ridiculously small.

They still beat everyone.
The significance of that statement depends on whether or not the Rakatans had any enemies that could pose a legitimate military threat. As far as I know, there is no evidence of this.

Ctrl Alt Del
10-04-2008, 02:25 PM
Conquer the galaxy? The Infinite Empire controlled only about 500 planets at its height. That's pretty small compared to the Republic as of TPM.
The Republic didn't control them, on the biblical meaning of the word, not as an empire does.

Corinthian
10-04-2008, 06:07 PM
The Republic was really more of a loose confederacy. But that's not really relevant. A million soldiers is JACK SQUAT in a galaxy. The Galaxy has some four hundred billion stars, 1/2 of which were habitable by some kind of life, 10% of which had life, and 1/1000 of those developed sentient life. So that's twenty million different sentient species. If we assume a huge low and and have an average of one million individuals for every race, a fairly ridiculously low number, that means we have twenty trillion sentient individuals in the galaxy. Assuming that 1% of those were capable of fighting in one way or another, that means that Revan's invincible star forge army of a few million is facing off against an army 200 billion strong.

Hosed?

Endorenna
10-04-2008, 08:49 PM
That's only speculation. Who's to say that the Death Star would definitely be taken down by it? The thing's pretty freaking huge and we know next to nothing about how the field works, anyway.

Aside from that, what range does the Death Star's superlaser have? It might not even need to go through this field thing to get within range of whatever it wants to blow up.

You're right, we don't know what the Death Star's range is. Chances are, it would have to go to through the field. Chances are, it would be shut down. It would then crash into the Rakatan planet and--my word, I don't even want to think about the effect THAT would have on the system and/or the Star Forge Star! Might even throw something into the star that would make the Star Forge short-circuit.


Conquer the galaxy? The Infinite Empire controlled only about 500 planets at its height. That's pretty small compared to the Republic as of TPM.

Only 500? Hmm, that I don't remember. Of course, I haven't played through the Unknown World lately, so you're probably right. Even so, that doesn't mean that the Star Forge was incapable of making an army to conquer the galaxy. Remember that Malak was beatin' up on the Republic pretty dang good in K1 with the Star Forge's resources. ;)


There's no way the army of a major galactic power at that point in time could be so ridiculously small.

I wasn't saying it was. I was quoting the arms dealer. Revan probably had several hundred million squads of troops, what with all the planets he conquered.

One other thing to remember is that the Mandalorians had conquered a great deal of the galaxy themselves. They weren't exactly numbering in the several billion number either! ;) How did they do it? Strategy. How did Revan defeat them? Strategy. With the Star Forge and strategy, Revan could destroy the Death Star, even without the stupid Rakatan field.

BTW, don't you think Revan could slip a few spies into the Empire and find out all the weaknesses of the Death Star, just like the Rebels did? He'd know every joint on that thing. If need be, he could sneak in there (out of his usual garb, of course), and turn off the shields, just like Obi-wan did to the tractor beams. Then he'd steal a TIE and scoot outta there!

TKA-001
10-04-2008, 09:03 PM
Chances are, it would have to go to through the field.
You can't say that unless you know the thing's maximum range.

One other thing to remember is that the Mandalorians had conquered a great deal of the galaxy themselves. They weren't exactly numbering in the several billion number either!
Since when weren't they?

BTW, don't you think Revan could slip a few spies into the Empire and find out all the weaknesses of the Death Star, just like the Rebels did? He'd know every joint on that thing. If need be, he could sneak in there (out of his usual garb, of course), and turn off the shields, just like Obi-wan did to the tractor beams. Then he'd steal a TIE and scoot outta there!
Sure, it's possible, but lots of things are possible (like Revan being discovered and subsequently captured or killed). On the other side of the coin, the repulsor thingy that protects the Star Forge could probably be disabled by the Empire in the same manner that Revan and his/her buddies did. Or maybe they would fail. At this point, however, we're getting so deep into speculatory interpretations (among other things) that following this line any further is impossible before we find ourselves writing KOTOR time travel fan fiction.

Corinthian
10-04-2008, 10:04 PM
The Republic was already crippled by a significant percentage of it's fleet disappearing after the end of the Mandalorian War. (It doesn't make sense to refer to it as the Mandalorian Wars, since there is no reason to believe that peace or an armistice was ever declared and broken between the beginning and the aftermath of Malachor V.) Besides, the Star Forge is probably a great shipyard and would give anybody a nice edge, but the ships it builds are four thousand years out of date with Imperial Warships and don't seem to be powerful enough to take on the Republic warships of the day casually.

The Betrayer
10-05-2008, 02:01 AM
the ships it builds are four thousand years out of date with Imperial Warships and don't seem to be powerful enough to take on the Republic warships of the day casually.
They may not be powerful enough (I strongly doubt that) but they can outnumber the Empire's fleet. The Star Forge just keeps getting faster at producing ships (as Saul Karath frequently says) and can easily outnumber the Empire.

Corinthian
10-05-2008, 02:10 AM
Outnumber them with ships that are, what, a quarter of the size of an ISD (Of which the Empire has 25,000, not counting Victory-class, Venator-class, Executor-class, Vengeance-Class, and the various other classes of Star Destroyers and Super Star Destroyers.), with out of date shields, weapon systems, and gravity well generators that would be useless against the massively superior hyperdrives of the Galactic Empire. Besides, all it would take is the Empire locating the Star Forge (Hardly an impossibility) and hitting hit from ultra-long range with the Death Star.

Besides, you can't create an infinite fleet without an infinite amount of crew and fuel, both of which require time to acquire.

The Betrayer
10-05-2008, 03:38 AM
Outnumber them with ships that are, what, a quarter of the size of an ISD
Sith Interdictors are 600 meters long, while ISD's are 1600 meters long.
Also, Sith Centurion-class destroyers are 1200 meters long.
Not exactly a quarter.

Corinthian
10-05-2008, 03:53 AM
Sith Centurion-class destroyers have never been seen to be constructed by the Star Forge. And when you also consider how much wider and taller the ISD is, my numbers are probably still accurate.

At any rate, size doesn't really matter. The fact is that the Imperial Navy is superior in every way.

Darth Hord
10-05-2008, 09:21 AM
They may not be powerful enough (I strongly doubt that) but they can outnumber the Empire's fleet. The Star Forge just keeps getting faster at producing ships (as Saul Karath frequently says) and can easily outnumber the Empire.

They don't have the manpower for all those ships nor do they use droids like the CIS do so an infinite fleet would be pretty useless if you are heavily under crewed or if some of the ships just float in space.

Endorenna
10-05-2008, 03:48 PM
@Corinthian
As we have never actually seen them in battle, I don't think we can really say.

This argument about the Star Forge and Revan vs. the Death Star and Anakin seems to be going in circles, at least to me. I suggest we, to fall back on the over-used term, 'agree to disagree'. :)

Corinthian
10-05-2008, 07:30 PM
Maybe, but this is entertaining.

If Interdictor-Class vessels were really powerful enough to tangle with an ISD, they would have been used during the Galactic Civil War. A lot. But, he-hey, we've never seen ANY of them outside of KotoR. Considering the Star Forge is supposed to be able to build an infinite fleet in a finite amount of time by the typical argument, why aren't there bazillions of these things floating around in space, waiting for the Rebels or the CIS or the Republic to commandeer 'em?

Thanatos9t
10-05-2008, 08:20 PM
If Interdictor-Class vessels were really powerful enough to tangle with an ISD, they would have been used during the Galactic Civil War. A lot. But, he-hey, we've never seen ANY of them outside of KotoR. Considering the Star Forge is supposed to be able to build an infinite fleet in a finite amount of time by the typical argument, why aren't there bazillions of these things floating around in space

Because after KotoR either the Star Forge was destroyed by the Republic or the the Star Forge fell dormant after Revan left for the unknown region of space and no one else was able to use it.

Malak didn't exactly use the Star Forge to produce massive amounts of ships either prefering to smash his enemies rather than blast them to dust (except Revan apparently) and Revan limited his/her time using it to avoid becoming controlled by it like the Rakatans so I think Revan used it when s/he needed to but did not rely solely on it.

Also I think that the later Star Destroyers and other cruisers were based on the design of the Interdictor Class.

Nedak
10-05-2008, 08:28 PM
Secret Apprentice would pwn them all

Corinthian
10-05-2008, 08:35 PM
So? The Interdictor Class was a Republic vessel before the Mandalorian Wars. Presumably, they were either too expensive or too ineffective to be worthwhile to continue to build. If that wasn't the case.

Why wouldn't Malak? You yourself said he liked to smash his enemies. What better way to do that than with overwhelming numbers? I'll tell you why. Because he didn't have the resources. He didn't have the fuel, and he didn't have the crew. That's why.

And it's pretty obvious that the Star Destroyers weren't based on Interdictors. Exhibit One, their design. Star Destroyers are a fairly standard Dagger shape.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/f/f0/ISD.jpg

The Leviathan, on the other hand, is a very odd design. http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/b/b0/Kotor_screen098.jpg

Now, there are some design similarities, but the differences are pretty obvious.

More importantly, it is effectively impossible for the Star Destroyer designs to be based off of the design of the Interdictors. The Republic Navy was in a period of effective non-existence prior to the Clone Wars (See Outbound Flight, for example), and it's pretty obvious that the original Star Destroyer design was based off of the Acclamators.

Besides, the Star Destroyer is a pretty obvious design, the dagger shape allowing for maximum firepower while exposing a limited profile.

And even if it were based off the Interdictors, so what? That doesn't change the fact that the Sith crap is FOUR THOUSAND YEARS OUT OF DATE. Do you realize that if it were a modern army facing an army four thousand years out of date, they'd be lucky if they were tribals with bronze spears?

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
10-06-2008, 02:25 AM
The Star Forge was not drawing from the Sun for 26,000 years. Nobody was controlling it for 26,000 years; it was just sitting there.
what about ajunta pall and the ancient sithies? the "secret" of his? that was only known to the dark lords? and the star map that was in naga sadow's tomb? so yeah.

Aside from that, what range does the Death Star's superlaser have? It might not even need to go through this field thing to get within range of whatever it wants to blow up.
http://file042a.bebo.com/14/large/2008/10/06/05/7145852149a9070096541l.jpg
that looks close enough to get pulled in.
and the imps fleet would be pulled in too. remember the capitol ship on lehon's beach.
and here: the hawk's systems have already been messed up by the field before this distance.
http://file041a.bebo.com/0/large/2008/10/06/05/7145852149a9070132199l.jpg

TKA-001
10-06-2008, 10:02 AM
Also, Sith Centurion-class destroyers are 1200 meters long.
Not exactly a quarter.
How big the Sith vessels were is kind of a moot point, since their biggest and strongest capital ship's (Centurion-class) firepower is outnumbered at least a dozen times over by an ISD.

what about ajunta pall and the ancient sithies? the "secret" of his? that was only known to the dark lords? and the star map that was in naga sadow's tomb? so yeah.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, since you phrased it so poorly, so I'll just have to guess.

Α. There is no evidence that Pall was referring to the Star Forge, or that any Sith used it before Revan and Malak.
Β. There is in fact evidence against the idea that he was referring to it, simply the fact that canon mentions the conflict that he and his comrades fought in (the Hundred-Year Darkness) ended with them being severely outnumbered.
Γ. Even if it did have anything to do with the ancient Sith, what does it matter? Who cares?

that looks close enough to get pulled in.
and the imps fleet would be pulled in too. remember the capitol ship on lehon's beach.
and here: the hawk's systems have already been messed up by the field before this distance.
If you could use a source that actually cares about technical accuracy (which Empire at War is not), you might have something to go on here.

Thanatos9t
10-06-2008, 03:59 PM
So? The Interdictor Class was a Republic vessel before the Mandalorian Wars. Presumably, they were either too expensive or too ineffective to be worthwhile to continue to build. If that wasn't the case.

Here is an bit from the wookieepedia on the Interdictor Class:
"The most notable Interdictor-class Cruiser was the Leviathan, a Galactic Republic warship that was said to be the only vessel in the class that came out of the shipyards in a space-worthy state."

Yeah so they were too difficult to build at the Republic's Ship yards.

And even if it were based off the Interdictors, so what? That doesn't change the fact that the Sith crap is FOUR THOUSAND YEARS OUT OF DATE. Do you realize that if it were a modern army facing an army four thousand years out of date, they'd be lucky if they were tribals with bronze spears?
That argument doesn't really work considering our Civilisation as a whole hasn't been technologically advanced for that period of time if you look at the level of technology in the Galactic Republic and the Old Republic there is actually very little in way of progression if you look at the timeline as a whole of the Galactic Republic.
Here (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galactic_Republic)
"The Republic was born with the signing of the Galactic Constitution c. 25,000 BBY"
So FOUR THOUSAND YEARS (as you put it) is not a long time considering the age of the Republic as a whole.

If anything there was no need to pursue new technology since after the Battle of Ruusan 1002-1000 BBY the Republic decommissioned much of its military, retaining a small force only for security purposes which lead to the need for the Clone army.

Corinthian
10-06-2008, 05:23 PM
Thanatos, that argument would hold water if we were talking about Warhammer 40K. We aren't.

New technology obviously was pursued, given the fact that new ship designs continued to roll out of shipyards, such as Rendili Stardrive's Dreadnought Heavy Cruiser. The idea that study of technology relating to the military halted abruptly after the Battle of Ruusan is completely ludicrous. That may have been the last Galactic War before the Clone Wars started, but regional conflicts continued.

Can you imagine? The Supreme Chancellor smiles at the end of the Battle of Ruusan, and as his first order of business now that peace has come, he outlaws all scientists? It doesn't work that way.

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
10-06-2008, 05:43 PM
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, since you phrased it so poorly, so I'll just have to guess.
yeah i suppose that was pretty poorly put...:xp:
Α. There is no evidence that Pall was referring to the Star Forge, or that any Sith used it before Revan and Malak.
come on, a star map. in sadow's tomb! that looks like pretty strong evidence to me.
i meant to say that the secret of pall's was the star forge. but then, that can be taken as the true sith.
Γ. Even if it did have anything to do with the ancient Sith, what does it matter? Who cares?
my post was in response to you saying
The Star Forge was not drawing from the Sun for 26,000 years. Nobody was controlling it for 26,000 years; it was just sitting there.

i know that the star forge wasnt used for a while, but it would be less than 26,000 years. according to what we see in k1. (star map in sadow's tomb)

http://file042a.bebo.com/10/large/2008/10/06/20/7145852149a9076801546l.jpg
this is earth and its distance from the sun. [roughly 150 million (150,000,000,000) km from the sun.]
the death star's range is roughly one third that.( http://www.theforce.net/swtc/ds/#range)
at the scale of the pic, i cant figure if that is close enough (in relation to what we've seen in kotor) for the shield to work on the death star if it wanted to fire on the star forge. it looks as if it is...

Astor
10-06-2008, 05:45 PM
That may have been the last Galactic War before the Clone Wars started, but regional conflicts continued.

Stark Hyperspace War, anyone?

Corinthian
10-06-2008, 06:01 PM
Precisely.

The disruption field is irrelevant. The Star Forge is in visual range before the Ebon Hawk is disabled and forced to crash-land on Lehon. More than close enough for a long-distance shot with the Death Star with the stated maximum range.

And even if we say that something like that CAN'T be done for some reason, all that would need to be done is send a few Divisions of Imperial Army and Stormtroopers to purge Lehon, blow a hole in the side of the Temple of the Ancients and bypass that pesky energy field, mow down everything inside through sheer volume of blaster fire, climb to the top, and shut down that stupid energy field.

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
10-06-2008, 06:47 PM
hmm, the star forge was built 30,000 years before k1...
and it was used to manufacture ships etc for galactic conquest. when revan used it, they manufactured ships up to date with the tech those days. i wonder if revan's forces could steal some ISD schematics and quickly make the star forge spit a few out. but i doubt that would be likely. (imagine if they copied the death star! :lol:)
but now, my opinion: vader and imps vs revan and his sith: vader wins.
i believe in that leap in technology, but more than that i believe that the empire could quite possibly beat them in tactics. because, chances are, revan's empire would be in the galaxy's databanks as history. the imps could call up said info, and they would be able to see the tactics that revan used, and that knowledge would be a huge advantage, on top of the bigger, badder navy. corinthian and tka-001's arguments have me convinced at this point. if revan could shut the field down with jolee and juhani, empire could too it with a large bunch of stormies, and maybe a dark jedi thrown in. (from what ive seen of tfu, if secret apprentice was there, he might not even bother. he'd just rip the temple off its hill and throw it into the sea. :lol: kidding.)

Astor
10-06-2008, 06:56 PM
hmm, the star forge was built 30,000 years before k1...
and it was used to manufacture ships etc for galactic conquest. when revan used it, they manufactured ships up to date with the tech those days.

That's because they used templates with current technology. The Sith Interdictor was originally a Republic design.

Thanatos9t
10-06-2008, 07:24 PM
Thanatos, that argument would hold water if we were talking about Warhammer 40K. We aren't.

New technology obviously was pursued, given the fact that new ship designs continued to roll out of shipyards, such as Rendili Stardrive's Dreadnought Heavy Cruiser. The idea that study of technology relating to the military halted abruptly after the Battle of Ruusan is completely ludicrous. That may have been the last Galactic War before the Clone Wars started, but regional conflicts continued.

Can you imagine? The Supreme Chancellor smiles at the end of the Battle of Ruusan, and as his first order of business now that peace has come, he outlaws all scientists? It doesn't work that way.

But I'm talking about the technology advancements between KoToR and the Movies, yes the ships may have been redesigned but they are still made up of a similar level of Technology it's not like comparing a horse and cart to a fighter jet.

That was my whole point that the level of technology hasn't changed much in a brief (4000 years) (in comparison to the Republics timeline) amount of time.

Its not like KoToR was pre-hyperdrive then the whole point about outdated tech would be more valid:

Kolto tanks - yup (not Bacta my mistake)
Hyperdrive starships - yup
Lightsabers - yup
Blaster pistols - yup
Space fighters - yup
Space stations - yup
Astrometric droids - yup
Assasin droids - yup
Protocol droids - yup
Replacement body parts - (Malaks jaw and Gadon Theks ocular implants)

Corinthian
10-06-2008, 08:11 PM
Bacta never shows up during Knights of the Old Republic. Only Kolto.

And yeah, they had similar stuff, but it all is mediocre - they had computers back in the 1960s, but I hope you enjoy using vacuum tubes.

Also, notice that all the prosthetics we see are crude things - Malak's jaw doesn't look real, and he's a bloody Sith Lord. The blasters are horrifically inaccurate, short-ranged, and don't do jack squat for damage, the astromechs are blocky things...

Yeah, it might not be quite as far behind as it logically should be, but we're talking a four thousand year difference.

TKA-001
10-06-2008, 09:00 PM
One would also do well to note that the firepower of starships is far lower in the KOTOR era than later on.

Chevron 7 locke
10-06-2008, 09:32 PM
Going back to the original topic here...I believe that Revan would beat Skywalker hands down. Revan had to fight countless mandalorians and jedi and he kept his rank of Dark Lord (Until Malak betrayed him) Skywalker...only fought padawans and knights, not to mention that many of the most powerful jedi masters and knights had been taken out by Order 66 before he got to the temple (Aayla secura, mace windu, the one chick whos name escapes me) Skywalker was basicly killing inexperienced knights and padawans and a few masters. Revan on the other hand fought Mandalore himself and still came out on top. So...revan wins hands down

Corinthian
10-06-2008, 09:34 PM
Mandalore isn't Force-Sensitive. Killing Mandalore isn't all that impressive.

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
10-06-2008, 10:39 PM
Also, notice that all the prosthetics we see are crude things - Malak's jaw doesn't look real, and he's a bloody Sith Lord.
i read the star wars:empire: betrayal (<--cliche!) and in it, there was an imperial guy who looked as crazy as vader. tubes sticking out of him and all. didnt look real. AT ALL :lol:
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/thumb/f/f7/Trachta2.jpg/180px-Trachta2.jpg
thats 4000 years later.
his name's grand moff trachta. man, he looks so nazi. (ugh)
i dont think that tech leap was *too* big. IMO, sith vs imps: sith would go down fighting. not get 'mopped the floor with'.

The blasters are horrifically inaccurate, short-ranged, and don't do jack squat for damage,
are you going by whats in the game? because in the game, you can stand square in front of a guy facing him, have your blaster rifle aimed right at him with a distance of, like, two feet between you and him, and you can have the entire salvo go completely off. like, 'hit-the-ground' off.

@ chevron 7 locke:
yeah revan had more experience than anakin. if that directly translates in the game, revan would be plain stronger. heres an example to illustrate my point:
imagine both revan and anakin in the games. we'll put anakin in ep3 at about lvl 28. revan has more than xp than anakin and thus, is at lvl 40. revan's level cap is 50. while anakin, being the chosen one, has a higher level cap of 65. but he never got there. so, though he could have exceeded revan in power, he didnt. but also remember in kotor and tsl, you face enemies that are at a waay higher level than you. (traya having 1000 vp=lvl 40?) and yet, you can still beat them. but its hard. put the anakin and revan npcs in an arena vs each other, and 7 times out out 10, revan would win. (there is still that chance of anakin winning)
on that scale, id put ol' sid in rotj at lvl 50.

Corinthian
10-06-2008, 10:54 PM
So what? You're using gamelogic to explain why Revan is so awesome. Why shouldn't I use it to explain why Revan would lose?

Inyri
10-06-2008, 11:17 PM
None of you should be using game mechanics to explain either, quite frankly. Blasters were inaccurate because they're low-level weapons using a dice roll system. There were lots of Jedi on the Star Forge because if there weren't your level 20 super awesome Jedi of doom would get bored.

Most likely neither would be that way if it wasn't a video game and was instead, for instance, a book or movie.

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
10-06-2008, 11:49 PM
So what? You're using gamelogic to explain why Revan is so awesome. Why shouldn't I use it to explain why Revan would lose?



i was using it as a example to explain my point. not support it.
if we took those things in the game as fact, then by hurling a grenade at a monkey, revan would suddenly learn how to hack a military grade security computer.

:lol:

Corinthian
10-06-2008, 11:52 PM
Is there any reason to believe that the basic blasters of the era were effective weapons?

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
10-07-2008, 12:16 AM
from what i see, kotor era blasters are just as effective as the ones in the movies and in the other games. the only evidence i see of kotor blasters being useless is in the game. and the game only does the 'crazy miss' thing because of the dice roll system. if they made an rpg with the same dice roll system set in the OT era, they'd do the same thing. blasters do go off the mark a bit. like the e-11s in jedi academy and the dc-17s from republic commando. but they wont ping off the barrel sideways.

Corinthian
10-07-2008, 12:18 AM
True, but the thing is, blasters don't even do very much damage. I believe the basic hand blaster is the weakest weapon in Kotor 1?

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
10-07-2008, 12:31 AM
1-8 damage. energy. (im pretty sure)
if every shot hit, and rolled 8 damage vs Azkul for example. (the sith mercenary on dantooine, k2) that would take ages and you'd get wasted. you are right.
now take cassus fett's heavy pistol. i think thats the strongest blaster in k1. fully upgraded. it does something like upto 19 damage. in k1 terms, thats a formidable blaster.
but take that basic blaster jump to a novel, and fight azkul with it. every shot could kill him. it would be just as effective in the novel as cassus fett's pistol. (once you get past shields and whatever he has on him). except the cassus pistol would probably look better, might eat through shields faster, and have advanced features. like, link up with any hud you might be wearing etc. it might even play your favorite music while you put some punks out of their misery.
AFAIK, kotor blasters use the same tech as movie blasters. (canderous was speculating about the effects upping the tibanna gas in his rifle in k2)

Corinthian
10-07-2008, 12:36 AM
Right, which is why nobody except an idiot or someone looking for a challenge actually has their main character use blasters and uses blast-toters for anything other than whittling enemies down from spitwad distance.

Have you seen a KotoR-era novel? I haven't. So how do you know that the blasters would be at all effective in it? In truth, you don't.

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
10-07-2008, 12:57 AM
POD was the closest to kotor novel. we'll find out when they release them next year. (i think. not sure)
i was speculating.

but come on, do you *really* think that kotor blasters are as useless as they are in game? thats ridiculous! why would they even bother putting blasters in the game? carth, canderous and hk's primary weapons were blasters. hk killed numerous jedi with blasters. and more evidence of kotor blasters and movie blasters having the same tech: hk's comment in the conversation with exile about the way droids should be treated. he said something about his line of work where the 'pieces of furniture (droids)' pull out "tibanna powered rifles" and put smoking holes in their masters. (cant remember exactly what he said)
what other evidence than the game do you have?

Corinthian
10-07-2008, 01:21 AM
How could I possibly have any? Blasters haven't been significantly featured in the KotoR era anywhere else.

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
10-07-2008, 01:26 AM
so where did that opinion come from?

Corinthian
10-07-2008, 01:47 AM
From the GAME.

Inyri
10-07-2008, 02:01 AM
KotOR in-game pistol = DH-17 blaster, used by rebellion forces in A New Hope.

[/debate]

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
10-07-2008, 02:08 AM
From the GAME.
what, so you're takin the game as evidence?
d20 *is not real*. in the novels they dont roll a dice to find if a point blank shot to the head would hit or not.
read my earlier posts' arguements against using game mechanics as evidence.
do you agree?
here is another example to help:
take canderous' suped up rifle he was thinking about. point it to (for sake of censoring) a humanoid droid's head ont the ground. also take that basic blaster and do the same with an identical droid's head. pull the trigger on both. use novel physics.
both droids will die. the difference would be that a standard blaster would burn a hole into the droid's head, while the modded rifle would incinerate the head, and punch a hole into the floor underneath.

Corinthian
10-07-2008, 02:11 AM
Uh...no, Inyri. That's incorrect. Would you like to play again?

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/9/96/Carthblaster.jpg

That's what the standard Blaster looks like..

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Dh-17.jpg
And that's the DH-17.

Okay, maybe both Droids would die. Then again, they might not. But that's not my point. My point is that all technology in KotoR is 4000 years out of date, and this is not a universe like Warhammer 40K where technological advancement is at a standstill where it isn't sliding backwards. Science is still an understood concept in Star Wars. Weapons technology would advance just like anything else.

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
10-07-2008, 02:26 AM
Okay, maybe both Droids would die. Then again, they might not. But that's not my point. My point is that all technology in KotoR is 4000 years out of date, and this is not a universe like Warhammer 40K where technological advancement is at a standstill where it isn't sliding backwards. Science is still an understood concept in Star Wars. Weapons technology would advance just like anything else.

maybe they wouldnt?!
look, i have no doubt that tech has advanced in 4000 years, it would stink if it didnt. but a 200 year old western pistol and some latest metal storm pistol (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mlu56e8nLI4) would both kill me if they were shot to my head.
do you dispute that?
movie era pistols have obviously had a less technological jump from kotor pistols than that.

Inyri
10-07-2008, 02:27 AM
Looks to clearly be the same design to me, Corinthian, or as close as you can get when your model is made entirely of boxes. :)

Corinthian
10-07-2008, 02:36 AM
The Kotor one is significantly smaller, for one thing.

Most likely, yes, they would kill you. Then again, they might not. It's not unheard of for people to survive a clean headshot with only tissue damage.

Prove that, JIGOS. I'd LOVE to see you try.

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
10-07-2008, 02:53 AM
Prove that, JIGOS. I'd LOVE to see you try.
im going to pretend i didnt hear that.

fact of the matter is: guns and blasters kill you. they wouldnt be made otherwise. to think that in the novels you could shot someone point blank and they would live is ridiculous. sure, its possible, but if a sith trooper performed headshots on a bunch of stormies, 9 times out of 10, stormies would die.and vice-versa. (and NO iam NOT talking about stun blasters or whatever else)

[EDIT]
we should move on. the blaster debate is a tangent.

Endorenna
10-07-2008, 05:21 AM
Prove that, JIGOS. I'd LOVE to see you try.

Corinthian, that was uncalled for.

I looked at the pics for the pistols. They look the same to me.

Corinthian
10-07-2008, 06:44 AM
I could go all Curtis Saxton on you if you like.

The Betrayer
10-07-2008, 07:18 AM
One would also do well to note that the firepower of starships is far lower in the KOTOR era than later on.

Malak's flagship was able to destroy Taris, I wouldn't call that low firepower.

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
10-07-2008, 07:25 AM
I could go all Curtis Saxton on you if you like.
go ahead. why didnt you do it before?

Ultimate Vader
10-07-2008, 08:40 AM
OK. Imagine this. What if Vader and the OT is created now, not 30 years ago, with great effects and big budget. GL will make him a very cool character, if OT is created by with the help of MODERN TECHNOLOGY, just like Revan, Jedi Exile, Kyle, Jaden, Delta Force in RC. I'm sure that all of us will hail Vader as God if OT is created in this time. And the story will not be as childish as Episode 6, no offense to Ep6 lover, because I think it seems impossible to defeat Vader without proper training, and those Ewoks, I want to Force Crush them if I can. IMO, GL thinks that Ewoks are cute bear. For me, it's a garbage. This is the reason many people hails Revan and hate Vader. If you only knew the power of modern technology, George Lucas......

Oh, about the battle, please look my earlier post, I think I have a fair decision in that post. No offense :)

TKA-001
10-07-2008, 09:41 AM
Malak's flagship was able to destroy Taris, I wouldn't call that low firepower.
"Malak's flagship"? More like "Malak's Fleet". And there's also no evidence that his fleet melted the crust of Taris, which Imperial warships were capable of.

Saber-Scorpion
10-07-2008, 10:01 AM
this is quite ridiculous with all this Anakin/Vader can do that and revan can do that i mean it no point doing this i am going to say this again WE WILL NEVER KNOW AND CAN NEVER FIND OUT
with that said about the blaster being crap what about that sith blaster that had killed more jedi then any lightsaber
and corinthian Mandalore is not that crap it would take some skill to kill Mandalore
and also the Empire is not the greatest best and unbeatable neither is revan's empire unbeatable if you ask me stormtroopers seems very bad at surviving but that seem to be problem for revan's troopers to
And that technology stuff the ewoks is a primitive race they still beat the crap out of the empire they proved that technology dosen't matter much i mean what good does it do if you got good equipment but crappy soldiers so that tech stuff dosen't seem to matter i say this also again SINCE WE WILL NEVER KNOW IT WILL BECOME A DRAW

Astor
10-07-2008, 10:02 AM
"Malak's flagship"? More like "Malak's Fleet". And there's also no evidence that his fleet melted the crust of Taris, which Imperial warships were capable of.

If the crust had been melted, it wouldn't have been habitable 4,000 years later, which it was.

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
10-07-2008, 10:14 AM
OK. Imagine this. What if Vader and the OT is created now, not 30 years ago, with great effects and big budget. GL will make him a very cool character, if OT is created by with the help of MODERN TECHNOLOGY, just like Revan, Jedi Exile, Kyle, Jaden, Delta Force in RC. I'm sure that all of us will hail Vader as God if OT is created in this time. And the story will not be as childish as Episode 6, no offense to Ep6 lover, because I think it seems impossible to defeat Vader without proper training, and those Ewoks, I want to Force Crush them if I can. IMO, GL thinks that Ewoks are cute bear. For me, it's a garbage. This is the reason many people hails Revan and hate Vader. If you only knew the power of modern technology, George Lucas......
i agree 100%, but its just the way it turned out. they had to reconcile why vader never used plague, drain, insanity etc, and jedi 4000 years before him did. AFAIK, he didnt have those powers. (i might be wrong)
this is quite ridiculous with all this Anakin/Vader can do that and revan can do that i mean it no point doing this i am going to say this again WE WILL NEVER KNOW AND CAN NEVER FIND OUT
its fun debating! it allows evryone to bring something to the table and gives oppurtunity to maybe learn something you didnt know before. ;)

TKA-001
10-07-2008, 10:17 AM
Mandalore is not that crap it would take some skill to kill Mandalore
Of course it would take some skill to kill him, but Jedi, Sith, and other Force-wielders are the sort of people who have lots of skill, instead of some skill.

they [Ewoks] still beat the crap out of the empire
A common misconception which is directly contradicted by facts, including the Episode 6 novel, not to mention the actual movie itself. How do people keep missing the shots that show ewoks practically tripping over themselves trying to get the hell away from the Imperial AT-STs? We never see the ewoks "beating the crap" out of anyone. All we see them accomplish is take the Imperials by surprise, destroy two AT-STs, and help the Rebels secure the area around the bunker. That's it.

Saber-Scorpion
10-07-2008, 10:27 AM
yeah i learned somethings but it's so annoying when people thiink that vader is the greatest ever or revan the greatest ever and about those ewok well that kind of right but they showed that technology is not the most important part of an army

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
10-07-2008, 10:44 AM
yeah i learned somethings but it's so annoying when people thiink that vader is the greatest ever or revan the greatest ever and about those ewok well that kind of right but they showed that technology is not the most important part of an army

exactamundo. :) i give scenario 2 (war) to vader and the imps.
but as said, revan's sith wont be squashed like flies. theyd lose, but i think theyd die hard. (i think the term fits here...)

Ztalker
10-07-2008, 12:05 PM
Well, I think this thread needs some fresh blood, since it's a very cool thread.
I see people complain about '30 years ago' and 'limitations of Kotor engine.'

So why don't we make it like this?

Force Unleashed Vader (closer to the truth, imo) and a Revan from the cutscenes of Kotor? The one with the custom fighting style that killed a whole squad of Jedi, set for Bastilla? We can just 'stick' all ultimate Kotor 1 and 2 powers on that one.

Anyways:
Saber vs. Saber:
Difficult. Fans suspect Revan is a duellist (Form 2 user perhaps) since he won every duel he participated in, and his opening stance. A man of finesse. Anakin uses Form 5, raw power. I think Anakin would win.

Army:
Revan. Like I said, a man of finesse and tactics.

Force Battle:
About equal, but an edge for Revan because of his experience as a Sith AND Jedi, whilst Anakin was never a 'real full-fledged' Sith.

Hostage:
Revan. Anakin would turn brute, whilst Revan would keep his finesse and stay calm. Would probably turn out to be a duel, won by Revan in an Obi-Wanish way.

All-out:
Difficult. Revan would probably avoid the duel because of Vader's raw power. Would probably search for a weakness. I bet he would try some Force Lightning, observing the electronics and fry Vader.

Ultimate Vader
10-07-2008, 01:03 PM
Well, I think it's still not fair. I don't see much difference between TFU Vader and 30-year-ago Vader (please tell me if you can see the difference). I'm complaining about 30 years ago because I doubt George Lucas has imagination of Force Storm, Thought Bomb, Nihilus's drain, and many other force powers. I think, the story after TFU should be recreated and improved, because I think the story after Ep III is way too lame compared to the PT, Bane's era, and KOTOR's era. It's my opinion anyway, but I think people now underestimated Vader because the OT is crap compared to PT, the costum looks sucks compared to this era's graphic, and other things. It's Lucas's fault, first he made a tragic character (Vader), then, other characters show up as time passes and made Vader like some piece of sh*t for everyone. He tries to repair it by creating the PT, but I think this is his biggest mistake, he made Anakin an undisciplined padawan, he thinks people will like it, maybe he wanted to make a child rambo. But no, people see that as failure and made characters such as Windu ( I have to admit he's badass, "BMF" proves that), Yoda ( insane combat skill ), Sidious ( probably the strongest sith lord ever, he clouded yoda's thought so yoda couldn't see the future, also insane combat skill ), Starkiller ( I think I don't have to explain this, just see other topics about Starkiller, and also Bane and Revan ( I also think I don't have to explain this, ask their fans for their greatness ). All of this characters made Vader like a child compared to them.

I'm sorry for every Vader fans, but I think all of us ( that's right, I also love Vader ) have to admit that our hero is being underrated by many people because our hero don't get a great shot ( RODV, I don't think that's very cool), so it will be useless to debate with other SW fans, because all of them will use this weakness to destroy us. No offense to everyone.

Ztalker
10-07-2008, 01:28 PM
Well, from certain point of view, he didn't have his 'ZOMG' moment, no.

Maybe it's still to come. That's why I mentioned The Force Unleashed. He's supposed to be this 'uber powerfull' Sith Lord. But the 1977 technology simply can't make such a thing visible (although the TESB duel on Bespin was a brilliant preview of his duelling prowess, one of the few moments in movies I knew the hero was going to get killed/wounded).

But maybe George Lucas simply wanted him to be a powerful fighter, an example, an hero for the Empire. Not an acrobatic Jedi. Rather an efficient killing machine. He succeeded, imo. Wiping out the Jedi Order is no small feat.

Saber-Scorpion
10-07-2008, 04:11 PM
there is nothing wrong with vader he have done much but maybe he hasn't done something really cool yet

1.He did still wipe out almost every jedi
2.He defeated a resureccted Darth Maul
3.If he didn't have to wear the suit he would be the most powerfull ever
4.He did kill Sidious even though he didn't in a battle of the force or lightsaber duel he still lifted sidious with one hand while sidious shot lightning out of his hands
5.If i remember he survived even though he jumped in to lava to retrive some very powerfull artifact
6.he did also survive even though he catched fire on mustafar

So he has done quite some impressive things

Corinthian
10-07-2008, 04:51 PM
I'm not going to argue about him being able to take on Revan in a duel. That doesn't really interest me.

What I am going to continue to argue is that the Imperial Navy would have been able to defeat Revan's Star Forge Fleet. The prospect of anything else is patently ludicrous, and the fact that it's even being questioned boggles my mind. Revans forces are outgunned, they have rather limited supplies compared to the Imperial Navy, and the Imperial Navy has a fairly ridiculous number of Superweapons. Care to test your Star Forge against my World Devastators?

I didn't think so.

Astor
10-07-2008, 04:55 PM
I'm not going to argue about him being able to take on Revan in a duel. That doesn't really interest me.

What I am going to continue to argue is that the Imperial Navy would have been able to defeat Revan's Star Forge Fleet. The prospect of anything else is patently ludicrous, and the fact that it's even being questioned boggles my mind. Revans forces are outgunned, they have rather limited supplies compared to the Imperial Navy, and the Imperial Navy has a fairly ridiculous number of Superweapons. Care to test your Star Forge against my World Devastators?

I didn't think so.

Also, as I mentioned before, a Sun Crusher (alright, so the Empire never used it -but this entire situation is hypothetical) could simply destroy the Star Forge's power supply, and take the system along with it.

Corinthian
10-07-2008, 05:17 PM
Precisely. And the disruption field is no problem either. Uh oh, we're going down. Shoot the big temple thing with one of our super crazy torpedoes. Hey, the field thingy is gone. Okay, now finish the job.

Chevron 7 locke
10-07-2008, 09:18 PM
i read the star wars:empire: betrayal (<--cliche!) and in it, there was an imperial guy who looked as crazy as vader. tubes sticking out of him and all. didnt look real. AT ALL :lol:
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/thumb/f/f7/Trachta2.jpg/180px-Trachta2.jpg
thats 4000 years later.
his name's grand moff trachta. man, he looks so nazi. (ugh)
i dont think that tech leap was *too* big. IMO, sith vs imps: sith would go down fighting. not get 'mopped the floor with'.


are you going by whats in the game? because in the game, you can stand square in front of a guy facing him, have your blaster rifle aimed right at him with a distance of, like, two feet between you and him, and you can have the entire salvo go completely off. like, 'hit-the-ground' off.

@ chevron 7 locke:
yeah revan had more experience than anakin. if that directly translates in the game, revan would be plain stronger. heres an example to illustrate my point:
imagine both revan and anakin in the games. we'll put anakin in ep3 at about lvl 28. revan has more than xp than anakin and thus, is at lvl 40. revan's level cap is 50. while anakin, being the chosen one, has a higher level cap of 65. but he never got there. so, though he could have exceeded revan in power, he didnt. but also remember in kotor and tsl, you face enemies that are at a waay higher level than you. (traya having 1000 vp=lvl 40?) and yet, you can still beat them. but its hard. put the anakin and revan npcs in an arena vs each other, and 7 times out out 10, revan would win. (there is still that chance of anakin winning)
on that scale, id put ol' sid in rotj at lvl 50.


But Kreia said in KOTOR 2 that the jedi of their day would be nothing against the sith lords of ancient times. so if that trend continued for almost 4000 years...Anakin wouldnt have lasted five minutes against revan. If they were dueling on Mustafar, Revan could simply force push Anakin into the lava that seems to be every where. and since revan is abot 4000 years older then Anakin...and he's closer to the time of the ancient sith lords he should be able to wipe the flooe with little annie

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
10-07-2008, 09:24 PM
IMO i think they'll do something to make vader as awesome as he should be. sometime later. they'll have to. because they say he is the most powerful ever, and they'll have to back it up. the problem is, they also have to reconcile it with the OT, were he was nothing compared to what he should be. its gonna take some hard thinking, but im pretty sure they'll do it. but right now, from what we see, vader isnt as good as the other dark lords we've seen. look at how bane wastes the mercs in Rule of Two (i think), look at how nihilus destroyed mirulaka and almost the entire jedi council. actually, from what *i* see, vader is really like darth sion: both are horrribly deformed, both have been manipulated by wrinkly old sith, both hate themselves (and are very emo), both are very good lightsaber duelists, and both have a mission to kill every last jedi (which they both succeeded doing very well, and both used similar methods.)
(and hey, vader even used some of that "rage-regeneration" of sion's but to a smaller degree. (Shadows of the Empire novel, i think)
have you seen the ' sion vs nihilus' cut content? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IobIhctxRXg) nihilus wastes him. sion survived because of his imortality power. can you imagine revan and vader vs nihilus? they're gourmet for nihilus! only exile could defeat him and that because of her unique force connection. now vader is meant to be the most powerful ever. compare that to world eating nihilus efore he tried eating the exile. (i think vader might have been referring to him when he said that the death star didnt compare to the power of the force). this is what i meant that vader had the potential, but i dont think he exceed nihilus. do you?

But Kreia said in KOTOR 2 that the jedi of their day would be nothing against the sith lords of ancient times. so if that trend continued for almost 4000 years...Anakin wouldnt have lasted five minutes against revan. If they were dueling on Mustafar, Revan could simply force push Anakin into the lava that seems to be every where. and since revan is abot 4000 years older then Anakin...and he's closer to the time of the ancient sith lords he should be able to wipe the flooe with little annie

i dont think revan would waste vader so badly. because, that 'watering down' of jedi and sith has been going on for ages and both the jedi and sith have been on the verge of extinction more than once, and they were able to become strong as they were before each time.

Corinthian
10-07-2008, 10:08 PM
You can't really prove that the trend continues. All we know is that the Ancient SIth Lords is that they were vastly superior lightsaber duelists. For all we know, the trend reversed itself. That's not really great evidence.

Ultimate Vader
10-07-2008, 10:16 PM
JIGOS, I want to ask you something (no offense). Do you like the story of Vader being recreated (maybe resurrected, IDK) in +150 ABY, because I'd love to see story like that. I have an idea, why don't we tell GL about this. He should give Vader a great shot ( you know, because of the Chosen One thing) like other badass characters. I think every SW fans will like it. Or maybe you or everyone have a different opinion and imagination about Vader's destiny, because personally I hate Vader's fate (you know why, just look at Ep6).

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
10-07-2008, 10:35 PM
JIGOS, I want to ask you something (no offense). Do you like the story of Vader being recreated (maybe resurrected, IDK) in +150 ABY, because I'd love to see story like that. I have an idea, why don't we tell GL about this. He should give Vader a great shot ( you know, because of the Chosen One thing) like other badass characters. I think every SW fans will like it. Or maybe you or everyone have a different opinion and imagination about Vader's destiny, because personally I hate Vader's fate (you know why, just look at Ep6).

seriously, i really feel sorry for vader when i see ep3. but i havnt read the legacy comics so i dont know. but from what i see, the only way to bring him back would be cloning. which is extremely cliche, and generally what people see as a lame plot, AFAIK. but they might do something like, IDK, that cade sywalker (i think his name is) ive heard he can bring people back to life? maybe they could do something like anakins super power + cade's resurrect thing, and maybe throw in something about darth plagueis, and it just might work. but as i said, i havnt read legacy, and also havnt checked wookiepedia, because of spoilers and because i intend to read it sometime. so i dont have enough info to make an opinion.

[edit]
but wait, arent they doing some crossover thing between four sw comic series, including kotor and legacy?
maybe something like this could be done there? i dont know

Ultimate Vader
10-07-2008, 10:52 PM
Hm... I prefer resurrection rather than crossover (I think it's like Marvel vs DC, I don't like that crossover, because it's based on popularity, and I think Revan will get a cool shot again because of his popularity). I wonder if GL make a story like that, I want to tell him about this. He should consider this, I think.

Oh yeah, I too feel sorry for Vader when I see Ep3, he beats Dooku to death but beaten by Obi-Wan because Obi-Wan has area advantage. But I feel sorry ultimately when I see Vader was beaten by his not-proper-training-son, it got even worse when he went LS, and became Force ghost. Foolish ending. NO OFFENSE TO Episode 6 & VADER FANS.

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
10-07-2008, 11:35 PM
i *really* feel sorry for him when he finds out that he killed padme. just look at that sorrow as he screams. (listen to him right before he yells) i mean, we all mess up our lives at some point, but when you have near god like powers, it's generally worse.

Ultimate Vader
10-07-2008, 11:39 PM
To lose such power wil be tragic, indeed ( with Kreia's voice ). Oh, about the topic, what's your opinion about my post (read page 2)? Do you agree with me? Because my brothers agree with my opinion.

Endorenna
10-07-2008, 11:59 PM
I really don't like the idea of Vader being resurrected. The Emperor coming back what? three times? is bad enough! The ending in ROTJ was excellent, I think. He had to come back to the light, even though most of us like Dark Side better anyway. :lol: It wouldn't have been a good story if he'd died as a Dark Sider, and the Force Ghost was a great touch, I thought.

Corinthian
10-08-2008, 12:03 AM
That's not really the focus of the topic anyway.

Ultimate Vader
10-08-2008, 12:13 AM
Well, it's useless to debate about Revan vs Vader, because everybody will use Vader's weakness (old, more machine, whatever) to end the debate and crush Vader's fans. It's better to discuss about Vader's good shots.

No offense, Endorenna. But why it wouldn't have been a good story if he'd died as a Dark Sider, do you have a reason for this statement?

Corinthian
10-08-2008, 12:14 AM
*Rolls eyes* Brilliant. So because you can't win the debate, you go off topic?

Ultimate Vader
10-08-2008, 12:37 AM
No, sir. It's because useless to debate when people ignore other facts and exploit Vader's weakness to win. It seems you want to taunt me with your post (no offense). I'm tired of people saying Vader's crap, trash, etc. There's time to debate, and there's time to end the debate.

Well, I'm a Vader fan, not a "very-fanboy", so I know when to say "other people dislike my hero, it's okay if they say bad things to my hero, I take everyone's opinion as good opinion, so I will gladly admit defeat in order to make everyone happy".

Saber-Scorpion
10-08-2008, 01:59 AM
corinthian i hope you remember that in episode six the executor was taken down by one single a-wing so tell me how could not revan do that sort of thing to also the rebel took down the empire's fleet even thought they were outnumbered
also i think if revan was going to war and knew somebody has found out the locationof the starforge he would probably build something to protect the temple

Corinthian
10-08-2008, 02:46 AM
Uh...no. The Executor was not taken out by a single A-Wing. It was taken out by a total fleet bombardment followed by a lucky strike on the bridge by an A-Wing during a maneuver. Crynyd did not destroy the Executor all by himself.

Also, a big part of the reason the Empire lost the Battle of Endor had to do with the morale loss of the Death Star II and the Executor both dying, the death of the Emperor and the end of his Battle Meditation, as well as a few other circumstances. Not exactly circumstances Revan is likely to be able to replicate.

Inyri
10-08-2008, 02:47 AM
The A-Wing was not taken out by a single A-Wing;o

Wait, which a-wing?

Corinthian
10-08-2008, 03:15 AM
You're a little late. Error is already fixed.

Inyri
10-08-2008, 03:36 AM
I'm not late. You're late. I quoted it before it was fixed. :)

Corinthian
10-08-2008, 03:43 AM
Not likely, given that after I fixed it no one had posted yet.

Inyri
10-08-2008, 04:03 AM
If you say so. :)

The Betrayer
10-08-2008, 06:50 AM
JIGOS, I want to ask you something (no offense). Do you like the story of Vader being recreated (maybe resurrected, IDK) in +150 ABY, because I'd love to see story like that. I have an idea, why don't we tell GL about this. He should give Vader a great shot ( you know, because of the Chosen One thing) like other badass characters. I think every SW fans will like it. Or maybe you or everyone have a different opinion and imagination about Vader's destiny, because personally I hate Vader's fate (you know why, just look at Ep6).

IIRC, there's no absolute proof that Vader was the Sith'ari.

Ztalker
10-08-2008, 07:02 AM
*Rolls eyes* Brilliant. So because you can't win the debate, you go off topic?

Don't taunt people. He started this thread, saw the results were all the same and decided to (in a nice and polite way) change the topic a bit to find out why people made this choice (to vote for Revan instead of Vader).
Taunting him back into a discussion he already accepted to be lost is, imo, BAD winner behaviour.

Uh...no. The Executor was not taken out by a single A-Wing. It was taken out by a total fleet bombardment followed by a lucky strike on the bridge by an A-Wing during a maneuver. Crynyd did not destroy the Executor all by himself.

Also, a big part of the reason the Empire lost the Battle of Endor had to do with the morale loss of the Death Star II and the Executor both dying, the death of the Emperor and the end of his Battle Meditation, as well as a few other circumstances. Not exactly circumstances Revan is likely to be able to replicate.

You can't prove that. In the movie, we see an A-wing fly through the bridge. We don't see that bombardment. So G-canon=1 A-wing did this. And G-canon is highest.

See how easy it is to bash this way? Please accept you have won, or people will come along and take your own words against you. Mods can do this very well, along with a ban or nice 'sparkly colour edits' under your post. :)

Further @ Topic:
Imo, resurrection sounds a bit lame to me. He's a thing of the past. If you see the general response to Flow-walking ( a novel power) you'd realise time-travel and Star Wars don't go well together. not even with an Delorean and Michael J. Fox.
So, I hope they will continue the infinities label. Infinites is basically a comic-series in which important events of the movies are spun around. Luke dying on Hoth, Luke missing the shot on the Death Star, Yoda dying before he can finish Luke's training.
Why not an infinities comics in which Vader doesn't jump at Obi-Wan? Or does, but Obi-Wan only cuts of 1 leg or puts his saber through Vader? When Vader can continue as a human beiing?
Or even more simple: Vader Unleashed game?

Astor
10-08-2008, 07:25 AM
You can't prove that. In the movie, we see an A-wing fly through the bridge. We don't see that bombardment. So G-canon=1 A-wing did this. And G-canon is highest.

Ackbar: "Concentrate all fire on the Super Star Destroyer"

We then see the shield dome being destroyed.

And that's when Piett is told the shields have been lost, and then Crynd crashes into the Executor.

So, both interpretations could be seen to be correct. Although i'm leaning more towards that just being the end result of the bombardment.

Ultimate Vader
10-08-2008, 08:56 AM
For Ztalker:

Simple. Do they have the budget to do it? Yes. Do they have the will to do it? No. It's simply because many characters (Yoda, Sidious, Revan, Bane) have more fans than Vader. And maybe GL doesn't have any idea how to make a good story about "Human Vader", because probably in his mind, he imagine Vader as "evil Superman". He doesn't think about other idea, such as resurrection (I admit that's not good at all), clone (Interesting choice for me), etc. Non-canon will be great, but I think people will ignored it, because usually people use canon characters. I say this not because I want other characters look crap, I just want a good shot for Vader, because I think RODV isn't much of a good shot (no offense for RODV lover).

I want to hear other's opinion about this. Please, don't get mad at me if you don't see things like I do.

For Darth Betrayal:

It's okay if you say there's no proof Vader was the Sith'ari. I take that as a good opinion, anyway. I just want a really good shot for Vader. I will even accept non-canon story, if that's the only way to get a good shot for Vader. I never said Vader was the Sith'ari. I said he's the chosen one and should get a good story (maybe non-canon).

Endorenna
10-08-2008, 10:10 AM
As far as the whole 'Sith'ari' thing, that came along with K1. Before that, no one had ever heard of a 'Sith'ari'. 'Chosen One' was enough. Personally, I thought Vader had a pretty good 'shot' when he threw the Emperor into the reactor shaft, saved his son's life, saved the galaxy, saved the Rebellion, turned away from the Dark Side, and sacrificed himself doing so.

I said he's the chosen one and should get a good story (maybe non-canon).

Darth Vader has a good story; in fact, he has six movies worth of good story! He is the main focus of both trilogies. The first one (the prequels) is about his fall. This sets up the main theme of Star Wars; redemption. The second trilogy (the originals) fulfills the theme by following Vader's journey back to the Light. If Vader dies in darkness, then the theme of Star Wars is destroyed. There's no point if it's just, "Oh, the hero finds out that he and the heroine are the son of the villain, and the hero has to kill him." Come on. That would be just dumb, IMO. I probably wouldn't even watch it if that had happened.

Corinthian
10-08-2008, 10:22 AM
Besides, if you assume that the Prophecy was misinterpreted, then Vader ALSO brings balance to the force by reducing it to 2 Jedi, 2 Sith, cowardly hiding tools like Empataojayos (Sp?) Brand notwithstanding.

Now, Ztalker, I COULD go on a tangent in every way your wrong. But I won't, because Astor Kaine just proved me right for me. *Thumbs up* Also, G-Canon is only 'Highest' when only one perspective can be correct. Just invoking that 'G-Canon says this' proves nothing, unless the other, lesser canon's perspective and G-Canon's perspective are incompatible.

Now, if you'd like anything else? More tea?

Saber-Scorpion
10-08-2008, 10:53 AM
look all i wanted to get to is that the imperial navy are not the best since the rebels beat it
this ISD are not the best ever well anyway much of the imperial stuff is based on the clone stuff except for the ugly TIE's anyway i know much of the stormies are clones so don't get angry on me here but in a battle in clones against stormies i think the clones would win

Ztalker
10-08-2008, 11:12 AM
Besides, if you assume that the Prophecy was misinterpreted, then Vader ALSO brings balance to the force by reducing it to 2 Jedi, 2 Sith, cowardly hiding tools like Empataojayos (Sp?) Brand notwithstanding.

Now, Ztalker, I COULD go on a tangent in every way your wrong. But I won't, because Astor Kaine just proved me right for me. *Thumbs up* Also, G-Canon is only 'Highest' when only one perspective can be correct. Just invoking that 'G-Canon says this' proves nothing, unless the other, lesser canon's perspective and G-Canon's perspective are incompatible.

Now, if you'd like anything else? More tea?

Just showing you how easy it is to use the wrong stuff for your arguments. Plus, not everyone on this forums is your enemy. Of course I know the Executor was bombed to sh*t, the death of Palpatine ruined everything (mentioned in Thrawn trilogy). Just accept that not everyone knows as much about Star Wars :)

Tea would be nice though, although coffee's more my thing. :xp:

@ topic:
You are right about the prophecy though. If you take it literally. If you take in account that the Jedi felt 'unbalanced' because possibly Palpatine's shroud of darkness destroying him might have worked too.
But still, it's not the way I hoped he would do it. After TESB, where he showed off his Uber saber skills at Luke, I thought that
a) The second duel with Luke should have been longer and more intense, more TESB-like.
b) He should best Palpatine...in a...cooler way. Not throwing him down, but stepping into the lightning and stabbing him with his last power or something alike. This was...just...mwah.

Endorenna
10-08-2008, 11:16 AM
I always thought that the Emperor falling down the shaft and exploding was very dramatic. :)

Ultimate Vader
10-08-2008, 11:26 AM
For Endorenna:

Hm... A good statement. I respect your opinion, but I disagree with you about it. The story makes Vader's life too short, seriously, for someone who has the potential to become most powerful Jedi/Sith. And I think he doesn't have a great shot, like Windu or Yoda. Here's what I remember about him:

1. Smart boy (create c-3po, that "flying ride", robot maker)
2. Undisciplined Padawan (although powerful, he's arrogant)
3. Jedi Knight (for a few days, more arrogant, kill dooku, become council member although he's not a master)
4. Newly christened Vader (kill jedi in the temple, kill gunray & friends, beaten by obi)
5. Cyborg Vader (second to emperor)

I think there's only three that can be said as good shot. Kill dooku, become council member, and being second to emperor. I think GL should remake Vader's armor (make him beefy and tall rather than tall only) , give him great shot, create good non-canon story (like Marvel Ultimate), put all of them together in a nice pattern with other characters (don't make them weak, because I don't like it when a character is weakened by the creator), and I guarantee it will be sold out. I think, if Star Wars should have a good ending, it's alternative should have tragic ending. Will be very cool and he can make money with it :). That's why I create my signature like this.

Astor
10-08-2008, 11:48 AM
Now, Ztalker, I COULD go on a tangent in every way your wrong. But I won't, because Astor Kaine just proved me right for me. *Thumbs up*

Your welcome, although i'm sure you didn't need any help ;)

More tea?

That sounds capital.

@Ultimate Vader: Where are you getting all this Vader hate from?

Empataojayos (Sp?) Brand

Worst. Name. Ever.

look all i wanted to get to is that the imperial navy are not the best since the rebels beat it

It took them 19 years to properly beat them, though.

this ISD are not the best ever well anyway much of the imperial stuff is based on the clone stuff[ except for the ugly TIE's

Certainly more than a match for a Sith cruiser.

anyway i know much of the stormies are clones so don't get angry on me here but in a battle in clones against stormies i think the clones would win

Most stormtroopers were human. Only a third of Stormtroopers were Fett clones because of the uprising on Kamino. All others were cloned from other sources, or conventional recruits.

Also, we're not debating whether clones would win over stormtroopers.

Ultimate Vader
10-08-2008, 11:58 AM
Pardon me, but can I ask you something?
What do you mean by writing like this : "@Ultimate Vader: Where are you getting all this Vader hate from?", because I don't understand :).

Astor
10-08-2008, 12:06 PM
It's just you really seem to dislike Vader, is all.

I don't see anything wrong with his portrayal in the original movies. His portrayal in the prequels ruined what was a mysterious figure.

Ztalker
10-08-2008, 12:14 PM
It's just you really seem to dislike Vader, is all.

I don't see anything wrong with his portrayal in the original movies. His portrayal in the prequels ruined what was a mysterious figure.

For some of the younger folks, it might be the other way around. Remember, they see epic-action spectacular Jedi Knight Anakin grow stronger. They see him turn Sith in Episode 3. Then they try to watch the OT and...be disapointed.

For 'us' (I'm only 19, but DID watch the OT before the PT) oldies it's the way you describe. I really liked the way Vader was portrayed, with TESB as my personal favourite. I didn't like the way Anakin was portrayed. I'd take any other reason for turning DS over "My wife will possible, perhaps, like in my dreams' die! Let's go DS!"

But anyway, it will always stay this way. Fans focussing on visual proof for Vader's prowess will want a remake of the OT, we want a remake of the PT. :xp:

Ultimate Vader
10-08-2008, 12:26 PM
Oh, about that. I don't dislike Vader, if you want to know. I am his fan. Look at my avatar and my name and my signature. I can't have all of that thing for my profile if I dislike him. I love how he speak, walk, fight, but sometimes I feel sad if someone uses Vader weakness (old, out-of-date, armor sucks, whatever) for debate. Those are people who don't understand other's feelings. As a fan, I think he should be given a great shot. But he never. Instead, GL make other characters look cool and badass. I think I the easiest example here is Revan. No offense to Revan's fans, but I see in their posts that many of Revan's fans dislike Vader. And half of Revan's fans who dislike Vader use Vader weakness to destroy Vader's fans. Have you ever noticed that usually Vader loses if there's many "new characters"'s fans who usually dislike Vader in a debate. I really don't know why people dislike Vader so much. I love Vader, I just hate how GL made his fate.

Astor
10-08-2008, 12:33 PM
Oh, about that. I don't dislike Vader, if you want to know. I am his fan. Look at my avatar and my name and my signature. I can't have all of that thing for my profile if I dislike him.

It's just you seem to express disagreement with how he is portrayed, is all.

I love how he speak, walk, fight, but sometimes I feel sad if someone uses Vader weakness (old, out-of-date, armor sucks, whatever) for debate.

No-one's done that that I can see.

As a fan, I think he should be given a great shot. But he never.

He is given a great shot - he's shown in the films to be the effective leader of the Empire, and the comics, books and games all expand on that.

Instead, GL make other characters look cool and badass. I think I the easiest example here is Revan.

Lucas didn't make Revan.

No offense to Revan's fans, but I see in their posts that many of Revan's fans dislike Vader.

That's because their jealous that their contrived, half-baked Mary Sue of a hero can never hope to match Vader.

Ultimate Vader
10-08-2008, 12:36 PM
Wow, you guessed my age just from your post. I'm impressed. I am young, so I got disappointed when I match PT and OT together. Perhaps GL will realize this and make two non-canon stories for us. One for PT remake, other for OT remake. By the way, your post is well said, Ztalker.

For Astor-Kaine:
1. When I was a child I love OT, seriously. But as time passes and technology come to our life, I changed and see that OT is too lame compared to PT. It's pretty difficult for me to describe it, because not many people have the same view like me.
2.Effective leader, perhaps. Any other else? I'm not satisfied with effective leader.
3.About Revan, you're right, I admit my mistake here. I wanted to say that Revan is created in a way which many hardcore SW fans like it.

No offense to you, Astor Kaine. I just want to discuss about Vader :)

Please do not double-post per forum rules (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=169078) :) - Cz

Endorenna
10-08-2008, 03:06 PM
Thanks for the compliment, UV. :)

When I first saw Star Wars, The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones were already out. My parents finally decided that the time had come to introduce me and my siblings to Star Wars, so they went and got the only ones they had seen out of storage: The Original Trilogy. I missed the first few 'showings', so I ended up seeing them backwards! (ROTJ, then TESB, then ANH) I loved the OT a whole lot, even though the special effects were out of date and Obi-wan and Vader's fight was lame. (Actually, I always thought that Vader looked a thousand times cooler than anyone else in the trilogy. Luke looked dumb, Obi-wan and Yoda looked old, Han looked cool and Leia looked cool, but they just couldn't compete with the heavy-breathin' Goth dude! :lol:)

So, finally, a year after that, my older sibling got the box DVD Special Edition Original Trilogy, and it happened to have a bonus disk with a documentary on how they were currently making the third movie of the prequels. It looked interesting, so we got TPM and AOTC. We were blown away by the graphics, lightsaber fights, and deep emotion of them, and we loved them immediately. When ROTS came out, we saw it in the theater several times before the DVD came out. Now that I've seen both trilogies, I tend to watch the PT more, just because they figured out how to do lightsaber fights and make them look even better than the ones in ESB and ROTJ. However, I think that both trilogies are on the same level of greatness; the OT for giving us the story and changing the history of movies forever, and the PT for giving us the other half of the story and great saber fights. When I'm getting someone to finally see Star Wars, I tell them to watch the OT first, then the PT, just so they Luke/Leia/Vader relationship won't be ruined (unless they already know). I think that that's how the movies are meant to be watched; in the order they came out.

Sorry, I'm getting a little off-topic here. Back to Vader! After I saw the PT, I thought Vader just became that much cooler than he was before. Once I saw why he'd turned to the Dark Side in the first place, why he didn't know that he had two kids, why he hated Obi-wan so much, etc., him turning back to the light as he died made a lot more sense (and I thought it had made sense before :))

Saber-Scorpion
10-08-2008, 03:46 PM
you got my Astor Kaine look i did'nt imply that they could not beat the sith starships i just meant that people seem to overpower them so much
and even if it took the rebels 19 years to defeat the empire they still defeated them also i got new info the shield on the executor was taken donw by a strike team of about 2-4 a wing or x wing maybe

Astor
10-08-2008, 03:48 PM
i got new info the shield on the executor was taken donw by a strike team of about 2-4 a wing or x wing maybe

And do you have a source for that?

Endorenna
10-08-2008, 04:05 PM
^
I'm pretty sure you can see it in ROTJ. I seem to remember something like that.

Astor
10-08-2008, 04:06 PM
^
I'm pretty sure you can see it in ROTJ. I seem to remember something like that.

2 A-Wings, maybe, but nothing about a Strike team. But the A-Wings managed to destroy the sensor dome (which also powered the Bridge shields) after Ackbar's fleet took the main shields down.

Saber-Scorpion
10-08-2008, 04:19 PM
well wookiepedia is my soruce everything everythinh there is almost always accurate
well i don't care anyway aren't we getting of topic it seem to changed to a topic where some of us looking for weakness in the empire while other are defending it

Astor
10-08-2008, 04:27 PM
well wookiepedia is my soruce everything everythinh there is almost always accurate
well i don't care anyway aren't we getting of topic it seem to changed to a topic where some of us looking for weakness in the empire while other are defending it

The 'Strike Team' referred to in that article is the one that blew up the Shield Generator, yes.

But not the Executor's.

The 'Strike Team' referred in that article is the one that destroyed the Death Star's shields.

thundrfang1
10-08-2008, 05:47 PM
10. Darth Imperius (Sidious' Master)

Imperius was not Sidious' master. Darth Plagueis was.

Astor
10-08-2008, 05:56 PM
Darth Imperius doesn't exist, except in the mind of SuperShadow. Any references to SuperShadow's theories are NOT credible, and that's putting it politely.

Agreed! It is sad cause in the PnP game my Sith Lord was Darth Imperious... to have that name now blemished by Supershadows lame angst-filled rants is distressing. -RH

Inyri
10-08-2008, 05:59 PM
Not everyone on the big bad intarwebz is familiar with SuperShadow and/or his work, so be patient. Of course if the last poster had read the posts directly below the one he quoted he would've seen them being debunked... :p

Endorenna
10-08-2008, 05:59 PM
Yea...man, that list was more messed up than I saw! I guess I was still goin' on about General Grievous, Jaina and Jacen, Luke's mideclorian counts--and Ben Skywalker supposedly beating up Dark Jedi when he was a toddler! :lol: My guess is that if Saber-scorpion had noticed that name, he wouldn't have posted that list. (it's really, really easy to miss one name in that big long column, especially one no one's ever heard of). Seriously, though, I'm glad he posted it, 'cuz now I know to avoid anything quoted from 'Supershadow'. :D

Edit: I just noticed 'Darth Rage (Darth Sidious' apprentice after Maul) Oh my word... :lol:

Darth Kalverys
10-08-2008, 06:41 PM
Mattig89ch on sceenario 5 you are wrong anakin became a jedi knight and would probably win revan easy the reason all think Revan is invinceble and most powerfull jedi ever is the simple reason is this one because we played revan as we wanted him/her to be so it's because we feel like we are revan when we play the game but now i like revan to but he won't win against anakin that is quite a simple fact also anakin is the most powerfull force user since he was created by the force no through the normal way to prove that anakin is stronger look at this

Midichlorian Count List for the major Star Wars characters
{Snipped Supershadows made up list} -RH

I feel rather compelled to ask this... but where did you get this information?

And since when is General Grevious able to have so many midi-chlorians that he can use the Force, when he is about 98% machine??? I don't ever remember anyone saying tha Grevious could use the Force! And wouldn't Vader be more powerful than Sidious according to your list if he has that many midi-chlorians???

Corinthian
10-08-2008, 07:07 PM
Read the above posts, please, Shan. It's SuperShadow. He's a complete idiot.

Darth Kalverys
10-08-2008, 07:23 PM
I don't know who SuperShadow is, besides, I hadn't gotten to this page when I posted the reply. :fist: Stupid ol' me...

Inyri
10-08-2008, 07:37 PM
Always read an entire thread before you reply, to avoid such situations. You'll often find your questions have either already been asked by someone else, or have in fact already been answered.

Endorenna
10-08-2008, 10:34 PM
I think a link to an article on Supershadow is on page...4. I think.

Ultimate Vader
10-08-2008, 10:42 PM
Hm... Now everybody's talking about most powerful Jedi & most powerful Sith (again). Interesting. It will be good to know other people's view about most powerful Jedi & Sith, so we know other people's reason for making a statement.