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Rev7
09-27-2008, 04:54 PM
Russia Upgrading Military (http://www.startribune.com/world/29825444.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD 3aPc:_Yyc:aUUJ)



Thoughts?

Arcesious
09-27-2008, 06:08 PM
Everybody loves Russia! :p

Astor
09-27-2008, 06:14 PM
Well, to be fair, a lot of Russian hardware should have been retired around 1987... It's not exactly state of the art.

I don't see overly much to be concerned about... yet.

Arcesious
09-27-2008, 06:24 PM
Honestly I think Russia is smart to want to upgrade. If I were in their position, seeing how powerful the USA and certain countries in Europe are, I'd think an upgrade for security would be a smart thing to do.

EnderWiggin
09-27-2008, 06:31 PM
Russia Upgrading Military (http://www.startribune.com/world/29825444.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD 3aPc:_Yyc:aUUJ)



Thoughts?

I think that Russia is upgrading its military. That's really the only thing you can think about this.

_EW_

Yar-El
09-27-2008, 07:25 PM
Russia Upgrading Military (http://www.startribune.com/world/29825444.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD 3aPc:_Yyc:aUUJ)

Thoughts? Russian people are good folks. Despite their current government issues, I don't hold the general public accountable. Once this crisis is over, we will no doubt help them once again. I have allways admired their sense of duty, honor, and crazy courage.

Rome has never gone without its challanges.

SW01
09-27-2008, 07:39 PM
Not really surprising or worrying - Russia is a major power, and it is becoming wealthier. It was always going to upgrade its hardware. I would say it wants to keep it's position as one of the top four military powers in the world. How the conflict with Georgia showed that such was needed is beyond me, though...

Yar-El
09-27-2008, 07:42 PM
President Bush and McCain keep refering to Russia's actions as 20th century thinking. I know we live in the 21st century, but that doesn't mean we changed drastically overnight. He may be refering to the aftermath of 9/11.

Rev7
09-27-2008, 08:20 PM
Honestly I think Russia is smart to want to upgrade. If I were in their position, seeing how powerful the USA and certain countries in Europe are, I'd think an upgrade for security would be a smart thing to do.
Of course that is what anyone that has a military wants to do. They want to make it better. The thing is, that makes them even more of a threat to us and others.
I think that Russia is upgrading its military. That's really the only thing you can think about this.

_EW_
True, true...
Russian people are good folks. Despite their current government issues, I don't hold the general public accountable. Once this crisis is over, we will no doubt help them once again. I have allways admired their sense of duty, honor, and crazy courage.
Yes, the Russian people really are good folks, it is just their leadership that I am worried about. Russians are pretty awesome though....:)

Web Rider
09-27-2008, 09:15 PM
Russia officially lists the USA as an enemy, so yes, it is a little worrying, considering their resumption of bomber patrols, their recent actions in Georgia, Putin making himself President for life.

It's not entirely surprising, but after this move I would not be surprised to see Russia taking other, invasive, actions against former Soviet Bloc nations. Particularly some in the northern middle east.

Sabretooth
09-27-2008, 10:15 PM
I think that Russia is upgrading its military. That's really the only thing you can think about this.

_EW_
Au contraire, it could be that Russia is upgrading its military. o_Q


No seriously, what's so discussable here?

Web Rider
09-27-2008, 10:25 PM
Au contraire, it could be that Russia is upgrading its military. o_Q


No seriously, what's so discussable here?

Aside from the obvious, perhaps the OP wanted to know what we all think Russia plans to do with it's new and improved forces.

Rev7
09-27-2008, 11:48 PM
I basically posted it, so that others are aware of it. There really isn't much to discuss, it is just informative, really. :)

Corinthian
09-28-2008, 07:57 AM
The United States Military does upgrades all the time - we should be deploying a new class of Aircraft Carrier relatively soon. That doesn't mean we're getting ready to embark upon a new World War. We're in a time of relative peace. That is when the intelligent nations prepare for war. And Russia, although I don't trust them or like them, is not a nation of fools.

ForeverNight
09-28-2008, 09:55 AM
Well, it could be that Russia's has the appearance of wanting to rebuild the Soviet Empire... so this could be convoluted to look like "OMG! THEY'RE GONNA KILL ME!!!"

...or it could just be like everybody else (and I) think, They're just doing some long past due updates...

Astor
09-28-2008, 10:23 AM
considering their resumption of bomber patrols,

Yeah, but have you seen the Bombers they've been using in the new Bear patrols?

Some classic 1950's Soviet engineering:

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/08_02/TyphoonL2108_468x348.jpg

Not exactly state of the art, are they?

Arcesious
09-28-2008, 10:37 AM
I don't think they could effectively upgrade their military to more powerful the the USA's right away...I feel somewhat safe living in the middle of the US, but the Russians do have their share of ICBMs (And some pretty freaking big nukes) that apparently we don't have accurate missile defense tech to shoot down. If it makes the Russian people feel safer, great. If it makes the Russian government think they "@r3 t3h pWn" and can take on everyone else, then that could be problem...

El Sitherino
09-28-2008, 12:32 PM
This is all clearly a response to the vigilante protective militia movement known as the "Wolverines".

Well played Comrades, well played.

Rev7
09-28-2008, 12:52 PM
Yeah, but have you seen the Bombers they've been using in the new Bear patrols?

Some classic 1950's Soviet engineering:

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/08_02/TyphoonL2108_468x348.jpg

Not exactly state of the art, are they?
They were really just flexing their muscles when they did that. ;)

An old bomber can still get the job done. It is still very capable.

Astor
09-28-2008, 01:01 PM
They were really just flexing their muscles when they did that. ;)

An old bomber can still get the job done. It is still very capable.

It wasn't just one patrol with those bombers:

A list of Tu-95 patrols after the year 2000 (scroll down). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-95#Encounters_in_the_air)

I'm sure it's capable, but it's nothing compared to the fighter alongside it. ;)

Rev7
09-28-2008, 01:06 PM
It wasn't just one patrol with those bombers:

A list of Tu-95 patrols after the year 2000 (scroll down). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-95#Encounters_in_the_air)

I'm sure it's capable, but it's nothing compared to the fighter alongside it. ;)
Oh, I know that. ;)

It won't get very far if we have fighters intercept it.

mur'phon
09-29-2008, 07:44 AM
Well they need it, read some of the reports coming out after their Georgian adventure if you need to know why. That said, the current Russian army is a black hole, it's the favorite place for politicans who think their wages aren't high enough, so I'm not sure much will happen (some estimates put the amount of money lost to coruption as 1/3 of military spending). And Russias most efective (military) weapon against the west will always be its nukes, their conventional forces are mostly effective as piece keepers and tools of intimidation.

Edit: And while Ruskies are wonderfull drinking buddies, they tend to firmly support mr P.

Q
09-29-2008, 02:05 PM
Some classic 1950's Soviet engineering:
I'll take this opportunity to point out that the USAF is still using the B-52 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-52_Bomber) which is a true contemporary of the Tu-95 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu-95_Bear) and plans to do so until ~2030. They are an interesting aeronautical study because they represent two different approaches to the same problem.

I'd also be willing to bet that within a certain speed range that Bear can out-accelerate that Eurofighter. It's famous in the aeronautic community for being able to do that.

Don't think that it's outdated just because it uses propellers. We're most likely going to see their return on a grand scale in the form of the propfan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unducted_fan_engine) because they deliver superior fuel economy to conventional jet engines.

GarfieldJL
10-02-2008, 10:45 AM
President Bush and McCain keep refering to Russia's actions as 20th century thinking. I know we live in the 21st century, but that doesn't mean we changed drastically overnight. He may be refering to the aftermath of 9/11.

Bush actually thought he could see into Putin's soul and saw Putin as a guy he could work with.


McCain looked into Putin's soul and saw three letters: K G B. People have called him a warmonger over that.


Based on Russia's invasion of Georgia it looks like McCain is a better judge of charecter than President Bush putting it mildly.

Web Rider
10-02-2008, 12:00 PM
Bush actually thought he could see into Putin's soul and saw Putin as a guy he could work with.
Putin is a guy you need to work with cause Russia is a powerful nation.

McCain looked into Putin's soul and saw three letters: K G B. People have called him a warmonger over that.
yes, we've all heard McCain's lame anecdote, anyone who looks up info on Putin will see that Putin is ex-KGB. So what? Bush sr was ex-CIA.

Based on Russia's invasion of Georgia it looks like McCain is a better judge of charecter than President Bush putting it mildly.
Putin is very much in the Soviet mindset, as are a lot of people in Russia and the Russian government. They miss being part of that big, powerful nation. And I can't blame them. I'd suspect you'd be quite upset if the US was only half the size it was previously and at a 1/100th of it's power.

Regardless of what we think about Putin, or what we know about Putin, efforts need to be made to work with him. We do not need another Cold War and to start playing brinkmanship again.

GarfieldJL
10-02-2008, 01:01 PM
We shouldn't stand idly by and let Russia invade other countries because they want to reform the Soviet Union either, nor should we stand idly by and let them threaten Poland which is a NATO ally, if Russia attacks Poland there will be a war. They attack one NATO country it's the same thing as attacking all the NATO countries.

El Sitherino
10-02-2008, 02:03 PM
We shouldn't stand idly by and let Russia invade other countries because they want to reform the Soviet Union either, nor should we stand idly by and let them threaten Poland which is a NATO ally, if Russia attacks Poland there will be a war. They attack one NATO country it's the same thing as attacking all the NATO countries.

And just what do you propose we do? I mean, we're already in a war we'll be involved with for a few more years. Then we still have to clear up the thing with Afghanistan and Pakistan by catching Osama bin Laden.

I think we should continue talks and make sure Russia understands that outright invasion will not be tolerated.

GarfieldJL
10-02-2008, 02:51 PM
And just what do you propose we do? I mean, we're already in a war we'll be involved with for a few more years. Then we still have to clear up the thing with Afghanistan and Pakistan by catching Osama bin Laden.

I think we should continue talks and make sure Russia understands that outright invasion will not be tolerated.

That really hasn't gotten us anywhere, and as McCain has correctly pointed out, you can't do much in the United Nations against Russia because it has veto power.

Astor
10-02-2008, 02:55 PM
That really hasn't gotten us anywhere, and as McCain has correctly pointed out, you can't do much in the United Nations against Russia because it has veto power.

So does the US. Your point?

GarfieldJL
10-02-2008, 02:58 PM
So does the US. Your point?

Any diplomatic pressure used on Russia has to be done outside the United Nations. Also the loss of Georgian oil really hurts other European countries.