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Lord Foley
10-02-2008, 07:07 PM
"I lied, as I have from the very beginning."

Vader claims he never intended to use Galen to destroy the Emperor; it was always an elaborate plan to draw out the Empire's enemies and have them destroyed. Plain and simple, when Vader said he lied from the very beginning, I think he was lying.

First of all, why exclude the Emperor from the plan, if the goal was to destroy the dissidents? Ah, but a line towards the end of the game suggests that the Emperor did know about the whole thing. Which was it? If the Emperor didn't know, why the hell not? If he did, why the elaborate hoax of being angry with Vader and "killing" the apprentice?

Neither Vader nor Palpatine is stupid. Why would they go through all this trouble if Vader could have simply told the apprentice early on the distract the Emperor and create the Rebellion? Or why not tell him the plan was to destroy the rebels, then kill Palpatine? He could easily kill him the way he pretended to the first time.

Here is what I think. Vader intended to use Galen to overthrow the Emperor. When the Emperor discovered him, Vader "killed" him and gave up the idea. Then one of two things happened: Vader decided to use Galen to help the Emperor and gain back his trust, or together Vader and Palpatine decided to do it. It makes much more sense that Vader was forced to change his mind. Why lie to the apprentice and say he had never planned to use him to destroy the Emperor? To crush his spirits, perhaps. Perhaps to cover himself by making it look like he has always been loyal the Emperor (you wouldn't want any storm troopers to overhear Vader saying that he had intended to betray palpatine).

Plus, it is very much in Vader's character to want to destroy the Emperor. He wanted to kill him when he found out he was a Sith. He told Padme he could kill him and take over. He wanted to kill him in the end of Revenge of the Sith, but couldn't. And he wanted Luke to help him destroy him.

Thoughts?

Zerimar Nyliram
10-02-2008, 07:29 PM
The game developers have said that Vader simply didn't plan on attempting to overthrow Palpatine at this time. He intended to do it eventually, but not yet. Galen was not his "chosen one" (pardon the pun). He planned on doing it at the very beginning of his apprenticeship when he was ultra powerful, but those plans were foiled when his injuries left him but a shell of what he once was, or had the potential to become. He put those plans on hold, at least for a while (if not indefinitely) until he found the perfect potential apprentice to help resurrect this plan: Luke.

Though your theory could very well be correct. I suppose there was also Lumiya, as well as others that we would be remiss to forget about when considering all of this. What roles, if any, did all of them play in Vader's plan to usurp the mantle of Sith Master and galactic Emperor?

Darth Eclipse
10-02-2008, 07:32 PM
I like your theory, Zerimar Nyliram.

Lord Foley
10-02-2008, 08:57 PM
I think it adds a greater depth to Vader's character when he is portrayed as constantly pondering the Emperor's demise. I find it hard to believe that he would simply put his plans on "hold," especially when Galen clearly could have helped him destroy the Emperor, as he nearly did. Vader blew it, I think. He had the one person who was both powerful and evil enough, and he let him slip away.

Zerimar Nyliram
10-02-2008, 11:12 PM
You could be right, I don't know. Your theory is a good one, don't get me wrong. I was just stating what the game developers have said.

Then again, it is ultimately up to Lucas Licensing to decide what really happened, so maybe we'll be told differently down the road. Until then, I accept what the developers have told us as canon, which has been discussed with and approved by George Lucas: that Vader is loyal at this point.

It'll be nice if a retcon proves your theory correct in the future, though. :)

Zack Fair
10-03-2008, 01:13 AM
Nope, if you read the book, Galen realizes when he's fighting the Emperor that he was behind everything, that he was the one that had his father murdered, that had him raised in darkness and pain, etc. It comes to him as they are trading lightning.

SW01
10-03-2008, 10:46 AM
Throughout the saga we see Palpatine executing plans buried within plans, as he hides in the shadows. I don't think this is any different.

I think that Vader made the show of nearly killing Marek to plant the seed of Rebellion in him - no doubt Kota would have detected Marek as an utter slave to Vader, and not joined him.

Vader trained him ostensibly to kill Palpatine to deceive him, make him move secretly so the Rebels wouldn't know what Marek was, in my interpretation, so that they would follow him later.

It was then the arrogance of the Sith that let them think Marek was destroyed on Corellia.

That's my perception, anyway.:D

Lord Foley
10-05-2008, 10:38 PM
I can't help but think, though: Even if this was all Palpatine's idea to begin with, would someone like Vader, who is portrayed so often as wanting to destroy the Emperor, not once think of actually using Galen to truly bring down Palpatine?

Although I can see what SW01 means by planting the seed of rebellion in him.

If the developers once again wish to show Vader as a total slave to the Emperor, however, I think they've really missed an opportunity to develop a character who is portrayed as utterly one-dimensional most of the time.

Ztalker
10-07-2008, 11:35 AM
I recall one scene of the game:

The apprentice is pushed of a cliff, and he asks:
"You were never planning to overthrow the Emperor!"
Vader answers:
"Not with you, no."

This supports your theory. He saw the power in the boy, planned to overthrow, but when Palpatine found out he had to switch motives. And decided to 'use' Galen and wait for another apprentice, stronger than this one. (Luke)

SW01
10-07-2008, 07:37 PM
I think it is better in some ways for the original story if Vader is kept as the slave of Palpatine - in makes his final turn in ROTJ much more dramatic, in my opinion. If it was a Vader we had seen attempt to destroy Palpatine multiple times before, it may not work so well...

Lord Foley
10-07-2008, 09:17 PM
Well one thing that should be accounted for is that Vader never really had a stable personality. He was constantly torn between his desires, his impulses, and the way of the Jedi. It think for him suddenly to have a one track mind just because he gave in to the impulse to save Palpatine from Mace is a little iffy- because even in that scene he was torn and immediately regretted what he had done.

Perhaps Vader felt a little helpless upon his betrayal of the Jedi, as the RotS book said that he couldn't bring himself to kill Palpatine in the very end because he was the only one left who would accept him. I suppose that could change him, but at the same time, he must have always harbored his hatred for himself and the Emperor. Luke could sense the conflict within in, remember.

Ctrl Alt Del
10-11-2008, 11:15 AM
I don't kn ow if Vader changed his mind when the Emperor found out about the Apprentice or even what made him do so. But I'm fairy sure that he initially saw the potential on Galen to help him bring down the Emperor. I won't use the logic used on the previousa posts, instead, I'd ask you people to refer to Vector 5 and 6 (Dark Times) for a better understanding.

On those volumes, Vader seeks the cryo-stasis pod that beared Celeste Morne, who weared the Muur talisman on her turn. Vader didn't strike her down, even when he held her on his grasp and when Celeste makes her counter-attack, spawning the Rakghouls, Vader is forced to retreat thinking he wouldn't be able to take her as an apprentice.

For me, it's obvious that Galen was the long wanted apprentice that Vader was looking for to defeat Palpatine.

Negative Sun
10-13-2008, 06:57 PM
Nope, if you read the book, Galen realizes when he's fighting the Emperor that he was behind everything, that he was the one that had his father murdered, that had him raised in darkness and pain, etc. It comes to him as they are trading lightning.
Sith lie though, Palpatine always says he has everything planned out, but in Ep. III for example he gets close to being killed a couple of times (Mace pwnd him, and so did Yoda)...Yet in the end it always goes "according to plan".

Until Vader throws him down a shaft that is :)

I do think Vader wanted to kill the Emperor, but he was more intent on using Starkiller, maybe to weaken the Emperor, or weaken them both in a fight so he could take control and kill them both.

Dominicomucci
10-16-2008, 08:16 PM
Interesting posts but i dont think you can read too much into it though its fun to do so!!

I dont think much makes sense now because it was written in 3 very different stages, you can tell so by the way they have had to redo parts of the old films to make the new ones work. Even down to things like jango fett being father of storm troopers. This was made up later on (as you can tell from the voices being different till they were edited)

To say Vader was waiting for luke just doesnt make any sense. Especially since Luke is nowhere near the power of starkiller. He is a basic low trained jedi with very weak skills. Starkiller can destroy so much without a hair getting out of place.

To me in that way, Vader waiting for someone better than starkiller doesnt make sense.

I think the idea which fits best is that he never has any intention of using him.

The fact the emperor is not suprised when starkiller turns up at the end also says to me he may have been in on vaders "killing" him. Also Vader is utterly subservient to the emperor, this shows at the end of the 3rd film and in the newer star wars till he finds luke. Then i think its a father son bond which changes his mind. The realisation the emperor lied to him even about his children.

Love all the ideas here by the way.

starwind40
02-12-2009, 09:40 PM
There are a lot of people who compare Starkiller to Luke in that Luke is a weak force wielder and not very powerful. The main issue with that logic is that ever since Galen Marek was a child, he has been vigorously trained by Vader for 10+ years to be a sith lord. Luke barely started training with the force before episode V. I think Luke has the potential to be really powerful for 2 reasons. 1- he is the son of Anakin (big bonus points) and 2-he was able to take on Vader after hardly any training at all............but he got his arm cut off, so I guess not a flawless victory.

anyway. I think that line "not with you, no" was a big easter egg of somekind. like Vader knew his son existed. Remember, he knew padme was pregnant before she died, I don't think he would have forgotten that and maybe through the force he could sense the future and search his feelings and "know it to be true"

I think Vader has been conflicted and confused ever since episode 3 when he feared losing padme like his mom and can't bring himself to kill the only thing that could save his wife. but after Palpatine tells him that he killed her, and he remembers her being alive. now he has nothing and he has destroyed everything and might have realized that it was all palpatine's fault, but now being under the oppression of the Dark side, he couldn't over throw palpatine, especially since he was not whole after kenobi got threw with him. so his original plan to over throw the emperor fell apart, but I don't think he ever stopped trying to get revenge for the death of padme.

This is a great discussion. sorry I went wayoff on a tangent

Shem
02-19-2009, 03:37 AM
anyway. I think that line "not with you, no" was a big easter egg of somekind. like Vader knew his son existed.I have to rebuke you on that one. Remember this is before ANH happens. Luke Skywalker was on his aunt and uncle's farm on Tatooine.

"To protect you both (Luke and Leia) from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born."
--Obi-Wan Kenobi to Luke in Episode VI: ROTJ

"Hidden, safe the children must be kept." - Yoda
"We must take them somewhere where the Sith will not sense their presence." - Obi-Wan
From Episode III: ROTS

If Vader actually knew where Luke was, he would have taken him in secret and trained him all those years, but instead he was training Starkiller. There's a reason for this and that is Vader was unaware of Luke at that time.


Remember, he knew padme was pregnant before she diedTrue, but Anakin was led to believe that the children died with her. At her funeral she still had the appearance of being pregnant.

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/3360/funeral7xf2.jpg

That was done to trick the Sith into believing that Padme's unborn child died with her (not knowing she was carrying twins of course).


Now to other pressing issues.

Here is why I'm having trouble believing that the Emperor sent Vader to kill Starkiller's father to take the boy. Maybe it would be a good idea for everybody who still has a copy to play the game again, especially the prologue.

"I sense someone far more powerful near by. Where is your master?"

When Vader says this, he is unaware of that Stakiller's father had a son.

"A son?"

Then all of a sudden Stormtroopers show up. Vader kills them to eliminate them as witnesses. It's like I've said in other threads before this. I believe the Emperor found out about Starkiller later on and devised a plan to create division between Starkiller and Vader in hopes he could replace Vader as his apprentice.

I wrote a summary about this several times now on how Vader underestimated Starkiller's ability and that he goofed. It all was motivated by Vader's fear of Sidious and knowing that if his plan to overthrow him messed up, he was a dead man and because Vader was a "broken shadow", he couldn't afford to take too many risks because he would now never ever become more powerful than his master.

starwind40
02-19-2009, 10:21 AM
Great points Shem. Your Argument for Vader not knowing Luke exist is solid. I guess I am now speculating on more of what that line meant then. I thought maybe there was a chance that he had recently felt another disturbance in the force like he did at the beginning of the game with Kento and there was someone more powerful than starkiller ....................maybe it was luke and he didn't know it was actually Luke yet.

I don't know, just really curious as to what that line meant.

Rev7
02-20-2009, 03:10 AM
Yeah, I have always thought that it was more of a spontaneous kind of thing....taking the boy as an apprentice. At first he took Galen without the Emperor's approval, but ran it across the Emperor, and he agreed, thus making the plan to fish out the Empire's enemies...

gallandro
03-10-2009, 12:26 AM
I feel confident that the Emperor knew of Galen all along. Keep in mind, Palpatine's method is to lay out incredibly complicated plans that can take decades to come to fruition. In the Episode III novel (and this was touched on in the movie), there was a group of senators that openly opposed Palpatine's growth in power. These people eventually became the leaders of the Rebel alliance.

I think the plot of TFU was basically Palpatine trying to come up with a way to openly punish these people for their dissention. It backfired, of course, because he ended up creating a martyr.

As for Vader, I think it's absolutely necessary to his character that he be completely loyal to the Emperor throughout TFU. It is situations like this that make palpatine overconfident as far as Vader's loyalty by the time Return of the Jedi came about. It also makes Vader's decision to kill the Emperor in ROTJ more powerful...

The Dark Lord
03-16-2009, 03:38 PM
ive only read about half of this but my theory is...

Vader used the apprentice to find the rebellion(palpatine's enemys) and did not intend on killing the emperor with him. He wanted to kill the emperor with Luke. Oringanally he wanted the apprentice to kill palpatine's enemy's and then die trying to kill the emperor but when he found out the emperor knew he decided to go along with the emperor's plan which is...

Find plapatines enemy's and capture them, while capturing them let vader kill the apprentice and then the emperor can execute his enemy's.

The emperor and Vader thought there plan had worked until the aprentice turned up on the death star.