PDA

View Full Version : Should Kavar's Corner take a month long break?


tk102
10-08-2008, 09:51 PM
Seems to this observer that everyone participating in Kavar's Corner debates these days is getting pretty wound up and snippity at each other. I wonder if wouldn't be a bad idea to close the forum for about a month until the U.S. election is over and (hopefully) the economic situation is a bit more stable.

What do you think?

Ultimate Vader
10-08-2008, 09:56 PM
Perhaps it is a good idea to close Kavar's Corner so people stop talking about U.S. election. Well, it's my opinion anyway, I don't know about other people's opinion.

Litofsky
10-08-2008, 09:58 PM
Hold on a minute! I'm all for taking a break, but a month? That's a bit extreme, in my opinion. The political situation in Kavar's has recently been upset by an influx of new members with ideals that are, generally, the antithesis of the general Corner's.

So, if you were going to close it at all, I'd only do it for a week- two at most. If I couldn't post here for one month, I'd be very sad.

Inyri
10-08-2008, 10:00 PM
If this forum is designed for discussion on politics (as is stated in the rules, along with a variety of other topics), shutting it down because people are talking about politics seems a little... off.

Perhaps a little more moderation is required. I think that would solve a lot of the current issues.

Ultimate Vader
10-08-2008, 10:04 PM
Hmm.. closed for 2 weeks or more moderation.. I think both are good solutions to the problem

Nedak
10-08-2008, 10:11 PM
No.
If people don't want to debate they shouldn't come here

El Sitherino
10-08-2008, 10:13 PM
Haha, do it tk.

Corinthian
10-08-2008, 10:20 PM
I see no purpose to this. It won't change anything.

GarfieldJL
10-08-2008, 10:22 PM
This election may be the most important one in our lifetimes, and in my opinion might even determine whether or not we lose all our rights within the next four years.

Achilles
10-08-2008, 10:28 PM
If this forum is designed for discussion on politics (as is stated in the rules, along with a variety of other topics), shutting it down because people are talking about politics seems a little... off.

Perhaps a little more moderation is required. I think that would solve a lot of the current issues.Perfect post.

mimartin
10-08-2008, 10:30 PM
Seems to this observer that everyone participating in Kavar's Corner debates these days is getting pretty wound up and snippity at each other. But it is brother and sister love kind of snippiness. :D


I wonder if wouldn't be a bad idea to close the forum for about a month until the U.S. election is over and (hopefully) the economic situation is a bit more stable. Thinking back to something a new moderator wrote recently. There was a time, when quite a few people thought Kavars, was going to split the community, and still think that Kavars, produces bad blood in our little KotOR world, as such I think most of us are quite releveaved for the current 'lull' in debates. To which I replied. So the staff is relieved there is no discussion in a discussion forum? I guess that is one way to prevent disagreements. :D To which he assured me. That's not what I mean and you know it :xp:

Now wonder is his original statement was true. :confused:


What do you think? I voted no, but I am not the one that has to deal with this unruly, yet loveable bunch. I really don’t even know what the options are. Like I don’t know if it is possible to stop new thread from being posted only in Kavar and limiting the political discussion to only a few threads. So I trust in the wisdom and leadership of Moderators and the Administrators. (now to wipe this brown stuff off my nose.)

El Sitherino
10-08-2008, 10:33 PM
This election may be the most important one in our lifetimes, and in my opinion might even determine whether or not we lose all our rights within the next four years.
'Sup?
http://fascistpsychlaws.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/hillary_tinfoil_hat.jpg

Corinthian
10-08-2008, 10:37 PM
I can see your masterful debating skills at work there.

Litofsky
10-08-2008, 10:37 PM
Obey... her... Royal... Highness...

*begins 1984-style chant to Big Brother Hillary Clinton*

:lol: Wow. I needed a good laugh, Sithy. Much thanks. As for Obama taking away our rights (I assume that you refer to him), where is your proof? But maybe we shouldn't talk about this in a "Should we close this place down?" thread.

El Sitherino
10-08-2008, 10:39 PM
I can see your masterful debating skills at work there.
Really?
I wasn't aware they were showing.

mimartin
10-08-2008, 10:42 PM
Really?
I wasn't aware they were showing. They are always showing. :xp:

El Sitherino
10-08-2008, 10:47 PM
I need a tighter belt.

.... But how will I whip ass?


A new question to be debated, me thinks.

The Doctor
10-08-2008, 10:58 PM
You could always get a second belt.

I may not post here often, but I do enjoy lurking around and seeing what other people think about whatever happens to be going on in the world. As Litofsky said, a month may be a little much. Or perhaps Inyri is right about increased moderation. Tightening up on some of the rules in here might go a long way to reducing the snippiness.

Litofsky
10-08-2008, 10:59 PM
I need a tighter belt.

.... But how will I whip ass?


A new question to be debated, me thinks.

Good Sir Sithy needs not a belt to whip ass. He does this anyway with his secondary, belt. This one is metal, with diamond thorns and a gold handle.

Sir Sith like to travel in style.

At the Doctor's comments above, I'm not sure what could be done about the rules. I think that a few moderators patrolling should keep things clean, but maybe one week off would do everyone a bit of good.

Tommycat
10-08-2008, 11:02 PM
If it is to be closed down, I would prefer it to be closed permanently. This is not a political debate site. Closing down political debate would probably be a good idea to prevent harsh feelings. The only other thing would be to delete political threads in other areas as well. Ensure that no politics are discussed on this site. There really isn't any valid reason to have political debate on a site like this.

Just my opinion.

Sabretooth
10-08-2008, 11:06 PM
I hardly ever have anything to do with Kavar's, much less the darn American Elections; but I'm against the closing of any forum of any sort. Besides, there are plenty of topics worth debate other than the US Presidential mumbo-jumbo, such as Sir Hamfast's good Presuppositionalism or whatever religion he's preaching.

To be honest, I couldn't think of such an idea coming from you, good teekay. I believed you to be truly just and fair and an upholder of liberty and freedom and pants. The locking of this thread over merely such an important would be... unfair.

And you also left out the Yoda option from your poll. Don't make me start to dislike you, teekay. :carms:

El Sitherino
10-08-2008, 11:09 PM
Fools, you clearly missed that this was TK's attempt to divert conversation to another topic. Such as my awesome HouseCat.

mimartin
10-08-2008, 11:25 PM
Fools, you clearly missed that this was TK's attempt to divert conversation to another topic. Such as my awesome HouseCat.
Get us all to agree with each other on something and unite against a common enemy.

I thought the only trick tk had, was to shut down the site under the ruse of maintenance.

Web Rider
10-08-2008, 11:42 PM
I see no purpose to this. It won't change anything.

I agree, feelings about political happenings would inevitably spill out into other sections.

I'm an admin at another forum, and after some bad experiences with a single member, we essentially have a "no religion and politics" rule in our more serious discussion section. And I'll tell you right now, that the average rate of posting there is oh, about one or two topics a YEAR.

If such a rule is implemented here, there's no point in this forum at all. If people can't control themselves, that is not a sign of a flawed concept. That is a sign that people are only human, and there is possibly a lack of moderation, though in many cases I would say there is actually over-moderation. And until somebody asks my particular thoughts on that I'll keep my mouth shut.


Would taking a break do anything except make the discussion look like it doesn't exist? No, not at all. To those who say "it's a Star Wars site! Talk about that!" Lets face it, even Star Wars has a lot of political commentary in it. We could make one grand topic on what Star Wars is actually saying about society and what we can take from it as, not just a sci-fi show, but a socio-political commentary.

And lets be honest with ourselves, Star Wars fans we may all be, Star Wars does not drive our lives(well, maybe it does for some), and, as I said above, even Star Wars will bring out deeper conversation among us. Look at the sections the members here all post in, we've got modders, economists, fans, writers, artists, socio-political discussion is something that we all have common ground in.


I think what Kavars needs is for it's regulars to start bringing up non-election related subjects. There's a million of them out there. Presuppositionalism is a great one for a start. Any move by the staff to cut out political discussion would only seem forced and make members resentful that in a forum designed for speaking our minds, we're not allowed to speak our minds.

That is why I think the onus of "saving" Kavar's is on it's regulars, to start topics that will move away from the political feuding that is ravaging the forum at the moment. If we can talk about something else, I think we can solve a lot of the political discontent we're seeing.

And I just realize I wrote a lot more than I planned.

EDIT: and the topic poll is loaded, misleading, and frankly, condescending. We have some great discussion going on here, and taking a break does not always cause people to cool, often they'll come back hotter than ever. And the context in which "arguing" is being used I find somewhat offensive as it refers to the bad kind of arguing, and doesn't take into account the good kind of argumentation that we do often participate in here.

Da_man
10-09-2008, 12:00 AM
I'd say to close the thread only if people continue with the bad election threads/posts. If we really want to close Kavar's until the election is over, we should probably go to Jonathan7, he is the moddie for Kavar's.

Achilles
10-09-2008, 12:25 AM
Shut down a thread that many people enjoy and use responsibly simply because a handful of people can't conduct themselves responsibly? It hardly seems fair.

I understand the aversion to wanting to hold people accountable due to the perceived amount of "legwork" required, however I think the alternative currently on the table seems excessive.

Arcesious
10-09-2008, 12:36 AM
I love debating... It exercises my brain... That and right about now, things are getting interesting due to the election...

tk102
10-09-2008, 02:25 AM
If this forum is designed for discussion on politics (as is stated in the rules, along with a variety of other topics), shutting it down because people are talking about politics seems a little... off.The problem isn't that people are talking about politics, it's that the tone has become less than civil lately and there's been more personal jabs than can easily be moderated. Perhaps a little more moderation is required. I think that would solve a lot of the current issues.Easier said than done. Seems everybody has a protest or requests an appeal, or lodges a formal complaint to every moderated action taken.

No. If people don't want to debate they shouldn't come hereAgreed! Wait, can we staff members use that too or do we still have to play referee? :xp:

I see no purpose to this. It won't change anything.I think you're probably right, Corinthian.

But it is brother and sister love kind of snippiness. :D:\
Thinking back to something a new moderator wrote recently. To which I replied. To which he assured me. Now wonder is his original statement was true. :confused:I'm sure J7 spoke for most of the staff. :dev8:

To be honest, I couldn't think of such an idea coming from you, good teekay. I believed you to be truly just and fair and an upholder of liberty and freedom and pants. The locking of this thread over merely such an important would be... unfair.
Just to be clear I wasn't talking about locking a thread, but the entire forum. :p


EDIT: and the topic poll is loaded, misleading, and frankly, condescending. We have some great discussion going on here, and taking a break does not always cause people to cool, often they'll come back hotter than ever. And the context in which "arguing" is being used I find somewhat offensive as it refers to the bad kind of arguing, and doesn't take into account the good kind of argumentation that we do often participate in here.
Well that was the whole point of posting it. :indif: If you were a moderator of the forums, I suspect you'd see the good/bad posts in different proportions. I am a bit condescending towards this forum. It has brought out the worst behavior and drama between members and staff alike. As a moderator or admin, you can either act (and get blamed for bias or censorship) or not act (and allow ad hominem attacks to become the norm). But regardless of your opinion of this poll, you reached the conclusion I was hoping for:
That is why I think the onus of "saving" Kavar's is on it's regulars, to start topics that will move away from the political feuding that is ravaging the forum at the moment. If we can talk about something else, I think we can solve a lot of the political discontent we're seeing.Quite right, well said. :)
I'd say to close the thread only if people continue with the bad election threads/posts. If we really want to close Kavar's until the election is over, we should probably go to Jonathan7, he is the moddie for Kavar's.He's gone this week.

Shut down a thread that many people enjoy and use responsibly simply because a handful of people can't conduct themselves responsibly? It hardly seems fair.

I understand the aversion to wanting to hold people accountable due to the perceived amount of "legwork" required, however I think the alternative currently on the table seems excessive.That's true. It sucks that fairness requires patience and compromise and I'm short on both.

I think hear tragic music...



:violin::sing9: O the sad life of moderators!
O the tragedy of administrators!
Why do they do it for free?

I'm going to go back to my comfortable apathy now. :hattip:

Web Rider
10-09-2008, 02:45 AM
Well that was the whole point of posting it. :indif: If you were a moderator of the forums, I suspect you'd see the good/bad posts in different proportions. I am a bit condescending towards this forum.

And where I moderate I'm an iron-fisted dictator. No I am not joking, I will publicly execute a member as fast as I will annihilate intolerance and flames. Fortunately, I don't have to do it very often because the forum I admin on is generally well behaved. Or, at least, they learn quickly.

I could never moderate a politics forum, I'm far too political minded, people probably would complain about my tactics being too harsh too.

Tommycat
10-09-2008, 02:48 AM
Just to clarify my earlier, I don't want Kavars closed. I just feel that if you have to close it for a month to cool things off, you'd probably be best eliminating political discussion altogether.

Prime
10-09-2008, 11:26 AM
Just to clarify my earlier, I don't want Kavars closed. I just feel that if you have to close it for a month to cool things off, you'd probably be best eliminating political discussion altogether.I like this idea!

Pity the yes vote is so low. Probably because all you ethnic right wing extremists are voting no.

Yar-El
10-09-2008, 11:31 AM
Seems to this observer that everyone participating in Kavar's Corner debates these days is getting pretty wound up and snippity at each other. I wonder if wouldn't be a bad idea to close the forum for about a month until the U.S. election is over and (hopefully) the economic situation is a bit more stable. What do you think?
It has been tense in here. Most of the threads are about the election and economy. I had a thread about religion, but I had to place it in the Senate Chambers. Maybe a time out would get everyone to see other more positive news (http://lucasforums.com/showthread.php?p=2535814#post2535814). :D Too much negative thinking sometimes overshadows the positive. Plus, this is a game site forums after all.

If we cannot agree on this one simple issue, the stress level must be ready to burst.

SD Nihil
10-09-2008, 01:12 PM
It should be closed after the election is over. Right now we still need to get sources, info, good comon sense talk across.

But afterwards once the election season is over this Kavar's should be closed for good. If people are un willing to change their minds or cannot change others then what's the point other than a debate that changes neither side's mind anyway. In the end it's just a waste of time.

Now if people were willing to change their minds then yes this forum in my opinion would be productive. But I've been getting messages from people saying they feel their is no point in this forum to continue to talk to those who don't read, listen, or change their minds. They've been talking about leaving the forum.

In my opinion that's the oposite of what we want here. We want more to come to this forum and to have more activity. If the forum is counter productive then that's not good for the entire forum as a whole.

There have been threads closed, cursing, flaming, infractions, complaints, and people thinking about leaving. And in my opinion if the differing opinion majority of them feels they just want to leave then that does not help for a debate when their is little to no differing side.

I think it's also appropriate to say here I appologize if I offended any of you during my debating. I don't want to argue about this. This is just what I feel. I've put in my vote.

Astor
10-09-2008, 01:19 PM
It's true that people can get a little... heated during a debate, but I don't think that closing Kavar's for either a short time or permanently is the answer.

While things can sometimes get a tad nasty, the overall feeling I get from everybody is that they enjoy a good debate. I've learned a hell of a lot from my few months haunting Kavar's, and it's done wonders for my view of the world at large.

Once the US elections are over, i'm sure the current mood will blow over.

So, in short, I don't want to see Kavar's closed.

SW01
10-09-2008, 01:28 PM
^

Agreed. Kavar's is one of the main reasons I come here now - I've seen a lot of great friendly discussions, and like Astor have learned a good deal from the threads.

It'd be a shame to see it go down at all, really.

Yar-El
10-09-2008, 02:29 PM
It should be closed after the election is over. Right now we still need to get sources, info, good comon sense talk across.

But afterwards once the election season is over this Kavar's should be closed for good. If people are un willing to change their minds or cannot change others then what's the point other than a debate that changes neither side's mind anyway. In the end it's just a waste of time. That is a good reason why the chief tk102 should close Kavar's. Leaving the forums open at this point is like poking a dead cow. People have allready made up their minds, and the only thing left is my guy is better than yours type of arguments. We are one step short of opening bashing threads.

Inyri
10-09-2008, 02:32 PM
Or it might explain why this is considered a debate forum and not an indoctrination forum.

And I don't think you guys are qualified to speak for everyone and say that no one will ever change their mind on anything or consider another poster's points. It happens a lot, actually. :)

Astor
10-09-2008, 02:34 PM
That is a good reason why the chief tk102 should close Kavar's. Leaving the forums open at this point is like poking a dead cow. People have allready made up their minds, and the only thing left is my guy is better than yours type of arguments.

Statements like that aren't helping :xp:.

Change needs to come from both sides - I enter every debate with an open mind, and I keep my mind open to ALL possibilities. No one 'side', if it really has to come down to such a thing is innocent in this, and you can't possibly expect people to agree all the time in such discussions.

The biggest problem is people not realising when to stop poking the cow.

Ctrl Alt Del
10-09-2008, 02:35 PM
No. How much time people need to cool off, anyway? Was it a discussion on, for example, an instant messenger, where every reply is almost immediate then I would understand that people must take a breath and rethink their arguments (and attitude) over. This being a forum where you can read, re-read and chose NOT to post a reply to any message and topic, I don't see the usefulness of that shutting down measure.

At any rate, people are doing what they were supposed to do here, aren't they? Seriously discussing. If the US elections and the economical crisis prove to be too much for the staff to handle (:xp:), close the related topics, not the entire forum.

Litofsky
10-09-2008, 02:35 PM
That is a good reason why the chief tk102 should close Kavar's. Leaving the forums open at this point is like poking a dead cow. People have allready made up their minds, and the only thing left is my guy is better than yours type of arguments. We are one step short of opening bashing threads.

I respectfully disagree. Topics in Kavar's have helped me attain a better understanding of the world today, as well as educate me on some previously-unknown material. Losing Kavar's Corner would be like losing the cornerstone of the KotOR forums, in my opinion.

Darth333
10-09-2008, 02:36 PM
What do you think?
What about we just ban everyone instead of closing the forum? Those who want to gather more info about the US elections would then have more time to do so... :xp:

Inyri
10-09-2008, 02:37 PM
Dammit I knew I shouldn't have started posting here. :p

Yar-El
10-09-2008, 02:43 PM
Statements like that aren't helping :xp:.
:obama: :blueblas1 :lol:


Change needs to come from both sides - I enter every debate with an open mind, and I keep my mind open to ALL possibilities. No one 'side', if it really has to come down to such a thing is innocent in this, and you can't possibly expect people to agree all the time in such discussions.

The biggest problem is people not realising when to stop poking the cow. Very true. Change starts with the individual; however, people are mostly fighting over whose candidate has the best policy. It went from debate to bashing the candidates. We are in a deadlock.

mimartin
10-09-2008, 03:09 PM
If people are unwilling to change their minds or cannot change others then what's the point other than a debate that changes neither side's mind anyway. In the end it's just a waste of time. With all respect, I disagree entirely with this statement. I don’t come to Kavar to change anyone’s mind on any topic. I’m also not here for anyone to change my mind or for in-depth knowledge on any issue. I am perfectly capable of doing my own research. I am not saying that some of my beliefs have not been modified since I’ve been coming here, I am saying this is not my first source of knowledge.

I’m here to read about other people’s views. Listening to others promotes understanding. At one time I had some pretty far-out preconceptions about atheist. I had never meet or talked to one. I’d been taught they were moral less heathens that wanted to force their way of life onto the rest of us. However, after reluctantly getting in several religious debates with Achilles and others, I modified my view. I did not give up my belief, but now I somewhat understand that atheist are no different from the rest of us. Now, the person I talk to most often via PM and my best friend on this forum is one of those heathen atheists. :D

That to me is what this forum is about. I’m not here to conform others to my view; I am here to hopefully receive a better understanding of others views.

In my personal opinion, the purpose of Kavar is not to change others minds, but to listen to others view and present your own views in a way that promotes understanding. Attacking others beliefs should be done in a respectful and in a well thought out matter. People take their religion and their politics (and their Star Wars canon) very personally. When you question either, people will interrupt that as a personal attack if it is not done in a very respectful way.

We should strive to better moderate ourselves so that Jae, El Sitherino, jonathan7 and others will have an easier job. I know recently I have push my post a little further than I normally do. For this I apologize to all members and staff.

What about we just ban everyone instead of closing the forum? Those who want to gather more info about the US elections would then have more time to do so... :xp:
Will quickly changing my user name immune me from this? :xp: *


* Edit: no one can escape the power of the dark side - d3

Q
10-09-2008, 03:12 PM
Pity the yes vote is so low. Probably because all you ethnic right wing extremists are voting no.
Yeah. All three of 'em. :dozey:


Moar drama! :drama:

Totenkopf
10-09-2008, 03:30 PM
I'd make a counterproposal.................all those disaffected by dissension take off a week or month from KC (I took 3 weeks myself) and everyone else who stays behind for that month agree not to go running for interference when arguments don't go their way. Maybe everyone will then appreciate why the Senate is much less active then Pre-KC (though I frankly woudldn't hold my breath, but that's just the cynic in me) Seriously, though, "banning" politics won't change the contention b/c there are also cultural issues that divide many people here, both knuckle draggers on the left and right.

igyman
10-09-2008, 03:33 PM
I agree that closing down the entire forum won't have any effect in the long run. The best solution is the one that requires a lot more work - closer observation by the mods. Also, perhaps it would be good if the thread starter himself/herself could ask all potential participants to keep it civil (a lot of them already do, but it doesn't hurt to say it), because it shows an additional level of seriousness. There's really no point to a debate, if you take it personal and start insulting people who think differently. The key word for Kavar's posters is, I think, self-restraint. Even if you want to call someone names at a certain point, restrain yourselves and try saying "I don't understand your attitude, please explain to me why you think the way you think", it's a lot more civil and you might actually get a good and civil answer.
Just my two cents.

SD Nihil
10-09-2008, 03:40 PM
Well the description of this forum says this is a forum for discussion of current issues and todays events. Discussion doesn't sould like debate. So I fell it should have been of more than just a political debate forum to begin with.

But when you create a forum and a sub forum has little growth, threads being closed, infractions, complaints, and the differing opinion majority private messages you and says they are thinking about leaving that says to me the sub forum is not good for overall forum growth, popularity, and forum harmony. Think of it from a business stand point. If a section of your company is causing customers to be turned off and talks about going else where that sounds bad to me.

And closing it down temporarily won't change the same outcome later of us coming right back to maybe we all need to take a break topics.

It's like temporarily recalling g a product and then putting the same product back out. That same recalled product will be the same. And when you think about it, this forum is a product your wanting to sell to more people and promote this product.

That's why you have to weigh the pros and cons, and is it fufilling your goals well. If the cons outweigh the gains maybe the product is not from a business standpoint good.

Inyri
10-09-2008, 03:42 PM
Well the description of this forum says this is a forum for discussion of current issues and todays events. Discussion doesn't sould like debate. So I fell it should have been of more than just a political debate forum to begin with.Welcome to Kavar’s Corner, a place for debating serious topics.o rly?

SD Nihil
10-09-2008, 03:52 PM
Well in the discription area of the forum outside of it it said discussion.

But again if the debates are counter productive to forum growth, harmony, and some if not the majority of the differing opinion want to leave then that forum in my opinion has not served the whole forum in helping to promote and grow in member number of people. Also to have debates you have to have those who differ on opinion. You can't have much of a debate if there is few to none to disagree with.

So again I feel those who run the forum have in mind the goal of what can we put that is going to grow and promote the forum. If an element is doing the opposite of that does not serve the goal.

Astor
10-09-2008, 03:55 PM
But again if the debates are counter productive to forum growth, harmony, and some if not the majority of the differing opinion want to leave then that forum in my opinion has not served the whole forum in helping to promote and grow in member number of people. Also to have debates you have to have those who differ on opinion. You can't have much of a debate if there is few to none to disagree with.

There's plenty of things to disagree on. We all disagree with each other - but we learn from those disagreements.

SD Nihil
10-09-2008, 04:01 PM
If everything was fine then we wouldn't be having this poll topic. We have not worked though the disagreements. That's why it's to the point to where some want to leave. And those some are the majority of the conservatives who messaged me here. And there are some issues behind the scenes I cannot talk about that are being looked into.

So there is a problem. And unless corrections can be done in these behind the scenes stuff or this forum goes away because it's counter productive in growth and having diversity of vew when the differing opinion wnats to leave.

This is the majority opinoin I've gotten from pms.

Inyri
10-09-2008, 04:02 PM
Some want to leave because various people have recently come into Kavar's without intending to engage in honorable debate.

Totenkopf
10-09-2008, 04:06 PM
That applies to people who've been here awhile as well. It's not merely new people that are trying to "crater" the landscape with "bad" intentions.

SD Nihil
10-09-2008, 04:14 PM
I'm not going to argue. I want to say some things about why we have and why others have not. I want to say we disagree with some decisions that many agree with me on that, but are looking into. If I be more than vague that can get us in trouble and me in trouble.

Those that recently joined. Those were us conservatives. Again it's not a debate forum really if there is no one with a differing opinion to debate with. And closing it temporarily won't fix the problems or the fact of the forum's existance. If things tay the same. Other conservatives in the future will come along again and we'll either end up with this same poll type topic or more of the same problems. There are problems. Threads closed, infractions, complaints about those, cursing, flaming, irrelivant links.

Inyri
10-09-2008, 04:18 PM
Conservatives and liberals are not the issue, by far. My boyfriend is a conservative and I'm a liberal and not only do I actually like him (and his PS3 >.>) but I can have a calm, collected, and interesting discussion with him about his differing political opinions.

Don't try to suggest that liberals and conservatives can't debate without resorting to slander tactics, because it isn't true.

Astor
10-09-2008, 04:20 PM
Again it's not a debate forum really if there is no one with a differing opinion to debate with.

As i've said, everyone here has differing opinions - and there's plenty to debate about - I may agree with Inyri for instance in one respect, and then completely disagree with her on something else ('bug rights', for instance :xp:).

Threads closed, infractions, complaints about those, cursing, flaming, irrelivant links.

Threads do get closed yes, if they've outlived their usefulness, or become too heated.

And cursing, which is rarely seen thanks to the filters, and our super-hot-quick team of moderators. Same goes for flaming. I'm not sure what you mean by irrelevant links, though.

tk102
10-09-2008, 04:41 PM
What about we just ban everyone instead of closing the forum?

Done.

Darth333
10-09-2008, 04:42 PM
Done.

Thanks!

Ah the peace! :devsmoke:

Achilles
10-09-2008, 04:50 PM
Ah the peace! :devsmoke: Expect PMs shortly :lol:

Q
10-09-2008, 04:58 PM
Cute.

Litofsky
10-09-2008, 05:03 PM
O hai, I am banned. Nice to meet you. :xp: Should we consider this the staff's Christmas/Holiday present to the LFers?

Astor
10-09-2008, 05:05 PM
I sense a distinct lack of weight to this punishment... :lol:

Achilles
10-09-2008, 05:06 PM
The only thing getting me through this crisis is the unfounded belief that name deleted, name deleted, name deleted, and name deleted were banned first.

PS: ooo, and mimartin too. Frickin' Texans. :D

Darth333
10-09-2008, 05:12 PM
We abuse power in an indiscriminate fashion! :xp:

Astor
10-09-2008, 05:15 PM
We abuse power in an indiscriminate fashion! :xp:

And there we have our next topic... abuse of power by authority figures... :p

forgive me, your Darthness...

Yar-El
10-09-2008, 05:20 PM
:xp: I have been banned. :lol:

Arcesious
10-09-2008, 05:22 PM
I've been browsing the fourm and I noticed something odd... Why am I 'banned'? What happened to my custom user title and description? :confused:

Edit: Nevermind... I should have read the new posts, lol.

Yar-El
10-09-2008, 05:23 PM
You are now special. :D

Totenkopf
10-09-2008, 06:23 PM
But if we're all special.....is anyone really special? ;) This banning would have worked even better if none of us could have logged in any responses (I'm guessing that we wouldn't be able to pm as a result either. Devilishly clever little monkey biz that would have been.......till the bans ran out anyway).

jrrtoken
10-09-2008, 06:30 PM
I feel offended by the term "Banned". I suggest changing the title to a more politically correct term, such as "Temporarily Exiled". :D

So... how long are we banned for?

EDIT: Wait, so we can still post in Kavar's? Is the title just an aesthetic thing?

Det. Bart Lasiter
10-09-2008, 06:43 PM
keep open, change background image to http://i37.tinypic.com/2r29jb6.gif

jrrtoken
10-09-2008, 06:45 PM
Huzzah, we're free! Pints for everyone! :guiness:

tk102
10-09-2008, 06:45 PM
So... how long are we banned for?
Until it's not as funny, which is about now.

EDIT: Wait, so we can still post in Kavar's? Is the title just an aesthetic thing?
:xp:

It was a nice fantasy though.

Inyri
10-09-2008, 06:47 PM
So teekay, when do we get to have our fantasy?

Stream
10-09-2008, 06:50 PM
That was kinda interesting. How many PM's did you get about that tk?

--Stream

Litofsky
10-09-2008, 07:08 PM
So teekay, when do we get to have our fantasy?

Uh-oh Inyrikins what have you and tk been up to? o_Q

Anyways, on the downside, we're no longer pseudo-banned, but on the bright side, we still get to post in the Corner! :)

Darth InSidious
10-12-2008, 12:24 PM
This place was a mistake in the first place.

EnderWiggin
10-12-2008, 01:12 PM
Conservatives and liberals are not the issue, by far. My boyfriend is a conservative and I'm a liberal and not only do I actually like him (and his PS3 >.>) but I can have a calm, collected, and interesting discussion with him about his differing political opinions.

Don't try to suggest that liberals and conservatives can't debate without resorting to slander tactics, because it isn't true.

QFE. QFE. QFE. QFE. QFE.
QFE. QFE. QFE. QFE. QFE.
QFE. QFE. QFE. QFE. QFE.
QFE. QFE. QFE. QFE. QFE.
QFE. QFE. QFE. QFE. QFE.

_EW_

Stream
10-12-2008, 01:40 PM
This place was a mistake in the first place.
What makes you say that?

--Stream

Q
10-12-2008, 02:50 PM
This place was a mistake in the first place.No arguments here.

I do find it all rather entertaining, though. ;)

Achilles
10-12-2008, 03:37 PM
This place was a mistake in the first place.I concur.

Stream
10-12-2008, 04:10 PM
So that's three people now saying that Kavar's was a mistake but not one has given a reason why they think that.

For a moment lets forget everything that's happened here lately, I personally find it hard to see how a forum that's been going for two years or so and has 21,236 posts could be a mistake.

--Stream

Achilles
10-12-2008, 04:13 PM
In that case, I'll expand: There was already an existing "serious topic" forum that didn't suffer from rules being made up on the fly and applied haphazardly. My personal opinion is that 90% of "the problems" that exist in Kavar's are there because two separate sets of standards are trying to be applied simultaneously and sometimes they do not mix well.

So that's why I agree.

Stream
10-12-2008, 04:30 PM
I personally don't believe that the rules here are made up on the fly. Sometimes as the topics change the rules have to adapt a little to keep things running as smoothly as possible which in a forum like this is hard to do.

--Stream

Achilles
10-12-2008, 04:46 PM
I personally don't believe that the rules here are made up on the fly.That's fine. It's happening (or not happening) does not require your belief. I'm not going to drudge up PMs with the staff to prove my point. You asked me to expand and I expanded :)

Q
10-12-2008, 05:36 PM
I agreed with DI for a different reason, that being that nowhere on LucasForums are the flaws of LucasForums more painfully obvious than here. And I also decline to elaborate. ;)



It's "fun to watch, though. Like the Three Stooges with chainsaws." :p

Litofsky
10-12-2008, 05:45 PM
Why are flaws painfully obvious here, Qliveur? I think Kavar's is a fine place to explore our ideals.

Q
10-12-2008, 05:51 PM
Like I said, I won't elaborate. T'would be pointless.

Yar-El
10-12-2008, 05:59 PM
I was going to write a list of pros and cons for Kavar's Corner, but I just couldn't come up with a balanced ratio. Kavar's Corner looked good on papper, but it doesn't seem as though it was executed well.

Some of the things that came to mind -
1 - People from other countries can see the differences between Republican and Democratic belief systems in the United States.
2 - People from other countries have to put up with conflicting Democratic and Republican views that are affecting another country.
3 - Everyone comes to LucasForums for gamming news, tips, and entertainment, but they are exposed to political arguments and debates.
4 - Star Wars Politics (fantasy) versus United States Politics (reality). Moral question: Should they be on the same forums? No. Star Wars may be reflective of historical events, but it is layered with a level of fantasy. People become involved with science-fition-fantasy to escape reality.
5 - Relates to #4 - People want to relax and escape everyday issues, so they come here to breath and have fun.
6 - Could conflicting political views splinter the forums? Yes. If we are opening threads up about the topic of bias opinions, there is a division already forming from the election chaos.
7 - Do people of another country have the right to interfer in issues that are not of their country? No/Yes. I find it aggravating when someone from another country says the United States is doing things the wrong way. Flip-side - I do like an outsiders opinion from time to time.
8 - Are we being fair to others? Do we have the right to argue or debate infront those who just want it to go away? Or, those who are not involved?

I think there is a moral delema here.

Astor
10-12-2008, 06:04 PM
Some of the things that came to mind -

2 - People from other countries have to put up with conflicting Democratic and Republican views that are affecting another country.

Equally so, there's an equal amount of non-us discussion - it's just because it's election season that it's overloading things.

3 - Everyone comes to LucasForums for gamming news, tips, and entertainment, but they are exposed to political arguments and debates.

It's their choice to enter this board - it's not like they have to read this stuff, so I don't see how this is a problem.

5 - Relates to #4 - People want to relax and escape everyday issues, so they come here to breath and have fun.

I enjoy listening to fellow gamer's opinions of what's going on in the world. It's another form of relaxation for many.

7 - Do people of another country have the right to interfer in issues that are not of their country? No/Yes. I find is aggravating when someone from another country says the United States is doing things the wrong way.

Not everyone is going to agree - if it bothers people that much, we non-americans just won't bother posting anymore on things that don't concern us.

Yar-El
10-12-2008, 06:32 PM
Not everyone is going to agree - if it bothers people that much, we non-americans just won't bother posting anymore on things that don't concern us. But, you shouldn't have to be put into that position.

Web Rider
10-12-2008, 06:36 PM
Equally so, there's an equal amount of non-us discussion - it's just because it's election season that it's overloading things.
Isn't Canada having an election right now? I know their elections are nothing like US ones, but still, we could easily talk about that election instead.

I enjoy listening to fellow gamer's opinions of what's going on in the world. It's another form of relaxation for many.
I agree, the news rarely expresses what people think and I find that boards like this are a great way to find out what people think.

Not everyone is going to agree - if it bothers people that much, we non-americans just won't bother posting anymore on things that don't concern us.
I certainly don't mind, given of course you non-USians aren't going to get in a tiff if I criticize your country. Which so far you haven't, so I figure fair is fair.

Det. Bart Lasiter
10-12-2008, 06:46 PM
But, you should have to be put into that position.Did you mistype something or is this just a really xenophobic comment?

jonathan7
10-12-2008, 06:47 PM
But, you should have to be put into that position.

Eh? I don't understand this statement. Regardless I will criticize any and all nations who make errors with policy that effects the world, - be that Russian, Iranian, Chinese or American, and I will not allow the tyrants of the world to silence my protest regardless of where they come from.

I am a freethinker, and as such will think freely and express my views freely, if your country makes mistakes I'll call them on it. I'm a Citizen of the World and well beyond the vain patriotism that causes so many wars and problems across the world. - If I criticize your country, tough, deal with it, and do what you can to improve it, if enough people try and change the world for the better it may just happen...

True_Avery
10-12-2008, 06:49 PM
Eh? I don't understand this statement. Regardless I will criticize any and all nations who make errors with policy that effects the world, - be that Russian, Iranian, Chinese or American, and I will not allow the tyrants of the world to silence my protest regardless of where they come from.

I am a freethinker, and as such will think freely and express my views freely, if your country makes mistakes I'll call them on it. I'm a Citizen of the World and well beyond the vain patriotism that causes so many wars and problems across the world.
QFE

Yar-El
10-12-2008, 06:53 PM
Did you mistype something or is this just a really xenophobic comment?

Sorry! I messed up on the statement.

But, you shouldn't have to be put into that position. Fixed.

Eh? I don't understand this statement. Regardless I will criticize any and all nations who make errors with policy that effects the world, - be that Russian, Iranian, Chinese or American, and I will not allow the tyrants of the world to silence my protest regardless of where they come from.

Thats is a big problem with Kavar's Corner. No individual in these forums should be put into a position where thay have to defend their country. That is not what this entertainment forums is about. It splinters the visitors into groups. If I have a conversation with fellow US citizens about high taxes, I shouldn't have to defend off critisism from a foreign visitor. Nor, should a foriegn visitor be put into a postion where they are forced to put up with the banter. We shouldn't have Americans versus Russians versus Italians versus etc... We also shouldn't have Christians versus Islams versus Budha versus etc... Anything that divides people into subgroups is not Star Warsish.

I am a freethinker, and as such will think freely and express my views freely, if your country makes mistakes I'll call them on it. I'm a Citizen of the World and well beyond the vain patriotism that causes so many wars and problems across the world. - If I criticize your country, tough, deal with it, and do what you can to improve it, if enough people try and change the world for the better it may just happen... Join the club. However, this is not a question about loosing the freedom of speech. This is about creating a sense of unity and fun. LucasForums has a responsibility to promote freedom, but through the means of entertainment and light current events. Heavy politics and religion can easily splinter people into subgroups. LucasArts is about bringing people together.

New slogon for LucasForums - "Bringing People Together!"

EnderWiggin
10-12-2008, 08:24 PM
That is not what this entertainment forums is about.


I'd say that this forum is less for entertainment, and more for serious discussion, as it says in the forum description.

It splinters the visitors into groups.

That's because everybody has different opinions. Go figure.

If I have a conversation with fellow US citizens about high taxes, I shouldn't have to defend off critisism from a foreign visitor.

Why not? They're just as much entitled to their opinion as you are.


Anything that divides people into subgroups is not Star Warsish.


Honestly? This forum isn't about Star Wars. It really isn't. It's about serious discussions on things that are happening in the real world.


New slogon for LucasForums - "Bringing People Together!"

:rolleyes:

_EW_

jonathan7
10-12-2008, 08:29 PM
<snipped for brevity>New slogon for LucasForums - "Bringing People Together!"

You could just decide not to visit Kavars if it upsets you that much to see people disagree with each other...

I will go on record and say the Saudi Arabian government is one of the most evil and tyrannous regimes on the planet and all the western governments that support it because of its oil are selfish, hypocritical, vain and conceited, don't like that? Tough.... I'd suggest matters of unbiased logic would say my conclusion is correct.

EnderWiggin
10-12-2008, 08:42 PM
I will go on record and say the Saudi Arabian government is one of the most evil and tyrannous regimes on the planet and all the western governments that support it because of its oil are selfish, hypocritical, vain and conceited, don't like that? Tough.... I'd suggest matters of unbiased logic would say my conclusion is correct.
Just wanted to have this show up twice, to make sure everyone reads it. :xp:

_EW_

Darth333
10-12-2008, 08:58 PM
Thats is a big problem with Kavar's Corner. No individual in these forums should be put into a position where thay have to defend their country. That is not what this entertainment forums is about. It splinters the visitors into groups. If I have a conversation with fellow US citizens about high taxes, I shouldn't have to defend off critisism from a foreign visitor. Nor, should a foriegn visitor be put into a postion where they are forced to put up with the banter. We shouldn't have Americans versus Russians versus Italians versus etc... We also shouldn't have Christians versus Islams versus Budha versus etc... Why see it like that (x vs y) ? I have always enjoyed discussing politics and other topics with people from all around the world. It is a good way to exchange ideas and see how things are done elsewhere and learn about others' perspectives on various topics, including my own country...it can be seen as a way to "Bring People Together" too.

Besides, no one is forced to read a specific topic or to even come to Kavar. It's there for those members of the community who want to use it...it happens that some of them are interested in discussing topics like the ones that are discussed in Kavar and not just "who would win, Revan or Vader?".

Anything that divides people into subgroups is not Star Warsish.What about the Jedi and the Sith? :xp:

LFN isn't LucasArts btw...

Yar-El
10-12-2008, 09:02 PM
Oky, oky. I gave my opinion, and its not a popular one. Not a problem. I wasn't expecting people to lynch me. :lol:

:anvil:

mimartin
10-12-2008, 09:56 PM
I have always enjoyed discussing politics and other topics with people from all around the world. It is a good way to exchange ideas and see how things are done elsewhere and learn about others' perspectives on various topics, including my own country...it can be seen as a way to "Bring People Together" too.

I could not agree more with Darth333's statement.

The entire reason I come here is to get a different perspective from people across the world. If I view their perspectives with an open mind, I may actually learn something about them and in the process about myself.

Besides where is the fun in everyone agreeing?

Oky, oky. I gave my opinion, and its not a popular one. Not a problem. I wasn't expecting people to lynch me. :lol:

:anvil: I understand you are saying this in jest, but you seem to believe this statement at least a little. Just in case, please understand that just because someone disagrees with you, that does not mean they are not attacking you personally. They are just stating their opinion just as you stated yours.

Yar-El
10-12-2008, 11:03 PM
Its not up to us at the end. I'm just happy we had a chance to talk about things.

Darth InSidious
10-13-2008, 10:12 AM
So that's three people now saying that Kavar's was a mistake but not one has given a reason why they think that
It's been three years or so - the experiment has proved a messy disaster. It's
time to unplug everything, write it all up, and file it under 'N' for 'never happened and never to be discussed'.

Ray Jones
10-13-2008, 11:06 AM
Any chances you could give details about why it's been a messy disaster? I don't even think it's that much different from the Senate, except that the Senate tends to be more strict about its rules. And seriously, the Senate is not a messy disaster.

Arcesious
10-13-2008, 11:41 AM
I like Kavar's corner. As much as I like starwars, I like to talk about other things too.

Pho3nix
10-13-2008, 11:52 AM
Any chances you could give details about why it's been a messy disaster? I don't even think it's that much different from the Senate, except that the Senate tends to be more strict about its rules. And seriously, the Senate is not a messy disaster.
Isn't it the other way around? I thought Kavar's had stricter rules.

I have to say I enjoyed the discussions in the Senate over Kavar's, they tended to be more...controversial if that's the right word. Or maybe it was just the debaters who were more interesting than the ones here.

I have no problem with Kavar's though, imo it shouldn't be shut down.

Ray Jones
10-13-2008, 05:38 PM
The Senate is more strict regarding ad hominem comments for instance. They got removed pretty consistently, mostly without a previously given moderator's note/warning, like it's been done here in Kavar's. This concept is basically good, especially since Kavar's was originally made to give room for not-so-serious serious discussion, also because the Senate became a place for very serious, in depth debates. But since those warnings didn't always help, it became necessary for the LF staff to do more moderating regarding that, which now in return seems to upset some people.

The point is, I don't see the LF staff or any rules at fault in this case. I'm sure with less ad hominem arguments (both, the blatant and the "clever" ones) in the past, this thread would not exist.

KinchyB
10-16-2008, 06:52 PM
Another thought... How about we ban people who cherry pick, ignore facts/sources, and are basically there to only spread their own propaganda even though it holds no weight...?

jonathan7
10-16-2008, 07:06 PM
Another thought... How about we ban people who cherry pick, ignore facts/sources, and are basically there to only spread their own propaganda even though it holds no weight...?

Wouldn't that mean all of us were banned? :xp:

While I may dislike illogical opinions; its subjective as to what is an illogical opinion, so as such while it maybe frustrating when debating with people who do the above, I don't think a ban would be the right way around things, I'd probably just recommend ignoring the posts in the first place...

I personally really like Kavars, but think that after recent events, their is and will be a review of moderating procedure, and possibly a change in direction.

My 2 cents...

Q
10-16-2008, 07:10 PM
Uh, that would include about 90%+ of the people who post here. :p

EDIT: Damn! J7 beat me to it. :xp:

EnderWiggin
10-16-2008, 07:12 PM
I personally really like Kavars, but think that after recent events, their is and will be a review of moderating procedure, and possibly a change in direction.


Not to be rude, but I think I may have heard this before.

The best change in direction will come Nov 5.

_EW_

jonathan7
10-16-2008, 07:25 PM
Not to be rude, but I think I may have heard this before.

_EW_

When do I ever fail to deliver? :xp:

EnderWiggin
10-16-2008, 07:41 PM
When do I ever fail to deliver? :xp:

I have faith in you, my friend. :D

_EW_

Achilles
10-16-2008, 09:52 PM
its subjective as to what is an illogical opinion Wrong. Logic is objective. That's why it's logic.

I fully acknowledge that some people are better at recognizing it than others, but that does not mean that the field itself is subjective.

Jae Onasi
10-16-2008, 10:38 PM
Another thought... How about we ban people who cherry pick, ignore facts/sources, and are basically there to only spread their own propaganda even though it holds no weight...?

This is a Star Wars gaming forum, not a college-level forum. We have people whose ages range from 13-103. Kids in their early teens don't have the same critical thinking skills that those with post-doctoral degrees do. They don't have the intellectual basis, nor do they even have complete physical development to have the same level of judgment that an adult has. Is the bar set low? Yes. We're trying to be inclusive here, not exclusive. We as staff also don't have the time or inclination to do mounds of research to determine if person x should be banned for posting an "unacceptable source" or "inadequate argument". If you want a forum with the intellectual bar set high, this probably isn't the place for you (in general, not KinchyB in particular). There are a good number of forums where you can have graduate-level discourse and argument. This is never going to be one of those.

---------------------------

When we staff conceived this forum, we wanted people to be able to share their viewpoints without fear that they would feel like they were being crucified by someone who disagreed with them. We didn't want to see a repeat of some of the nastiness we'd seen develop in the Senate. We have failed in that mission, and failed miserably.

I see a group of people who used to get along reasonably well at each others' throats. I see small groups of people getting together to consort to harass other members whose opinions they don't like. There have been times when I didn't know whether to laugh at the complete idiocy of some of the childish behavior here, cry, be completely disgusted, or hopeless about the sheer hatred I've seen in this forum or happening as a result of this forum.

I have also seen people grow and develop over the last couple of years that this forum has existed. It absolutely broke my heart when Arcesious walked away from faith, but watching him develop skills to think critically about different subjects has been a great joy. Seeing others learn new ideas, develop their skills at evaluating research, sharing viewpoints from around the world, are all things I enjoy, too, and I am glad for those times when things go well because I think it helps all of us improve.

We as a group of members here can decide to make it better and improve the relations here, or we can continue to snipe at each other and watch this place completely unravel. As staff, we can make changes that would decrease the unpleasantries that have developed on this forum. However, it won't work unless everyone is committed to making this place a more pleasant place to be. That's up to everyone here.

Darth333
10-16-2008, 11:09 PM
We have people whose ages range from 13-103.
103? :eyeraise: I thought you were permanently 29 Jae :xp:


But yeah, we'd like to Kavar to be as welcoming as possible to everyone, n00b to pro, no matter the background, origin or age. We are definitely not going to make it a requirement for members to meet some academic requirements, demonstrate debate or erudition skills ,etc. Kavar aims to be a place to share opinions and discuss current affairs and other "serious" topics with other LF members in a friendly and respectful environment, nothing more, nothing less.

Inyri
10-16-2008, 11:15 PM
I think KinchyB was referring to trolls who clearly do not want to debate (and are fully aware of what they are doing, as opposed to honest members who simply may not be good debaters). I think a clear line should be drawn between these two groups, and one should be acceptable and the other should not.

Kavar's should be here to foster healthy debate, not to be used as a propaganda forum for those unwilling and not intending to actually debate points. This, I believe, is part of the current issues with Kavar's.

Q
10-16-2008, 11:50 PM
With all due respect, I must admit that I'm rather curious as to exactly where this line would be drawn, Inyri. Between "acceptable" and "unacceptable" viewpoints? "Acceptable" and "unacceptable" sources? "Acceptable" and "unacceptable" propaganda?

In all fairness, the person(s) to whom you are referring are debating. Yes, they could be (a lot) less spammy and obnoxious about it, but their FUD isn't any more ridiculous than the crap that the Obamites were spewing forth ad nauseum for several months before they showed up. As a matter of fact, their style is rather reminiscent of a certain member's "damned fool athiestic crusade" :xp: of a few months ago. A debate where everyone agrees is no debate at all. It's merely a social event. In other words, it's a clique. ;)

Oops, I said I wasn't going to elaborate about Kavar's glaringly obvious flaws earlier in this thread, and I guess I just made a liar out of myself. Oh well... :p

Inyri
10-16-2008, 11:56 PM
I never said anything about acceptable/unacceptable viewpoints/sources. I said something about trolls.

Q
10-17-2008, 12:00 AM
And why are they being labeled as trolls?

Inyri
10-17-2008, 12:02 AM
Because they're trolls.

Definition of troll: clickie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet))

Q
10-17-2008, 12:09 AM
Yes, I know what a troll is. ;)

Besides the tendency towards off-topicness, which I don't see as deliberate attempts at thread derailment, what else are they doing wrong?

Inyri
10-17-2008, 12:11 AM
I already explained this several posts ago. You're free to read that one, or KinchyB's post. I think repeating myself would be a little spammy.

Q
10-17-2008, 12:14 AM
Very well. I was just curious. And yes, you've certainly answered my question to my satisfaction. Thank you. ;)

Yar-El
10-17-2008, 09:14 AM
Another thought... How about we ban people who cherry pick, ignore facts/sources, and are basically there to only spread their own propaganda even though it holds no weight...? Propaganda to one person is fact to another, right? Do we know for a fact that everything a poster says is false? I may disagree with a poster's statement; however, I don't consider what they say to be junk. I can always do my own research.

Who likes or dislikes the color pink? Why?

mimartin
10-17-2008, 12:25 PM
Propaganda to one person is fact to another, right? No. Fact – 1. Something known to be true – something that can be shown to be true, to exist, or to have happened. What is the point in debating facts? Most of what we debate and discuss in Kavar are not facts, they are opinions.
Who likes or dislikes the color pink? Why?
Pink is ugly = opinion
Pink is pretty = opinion
Who cares about Pink = opinion
Pink is a color = fact

I believe if we each looked at our own personal views as opinion and not facts, things would go a lot smoother here. There is no reason for us to take offence every time someone questions our opinion. We should understand that our opinion is the most important opinion only to ourselves. Just because someone questions your opinion, your candidate or your source does not mean they are attacking you personally.

This is my personal opinion and in no way should be regarded as fact. :xp:

EnderWiggin
10-17-2008, 05:45 PM
Propaganda to one person is fact to another, right?

No. Absolutely not.

Where's Achilles when you need him?

_EW_

Achilles
10-17-2008, 06:15 PM
Where's Achilles when you need him?Post 116 :)

Also, I think the last part of mimartin's post doesn't need to be repeated by me (although I wouldn't have included that final sentence).

KinchyB
10-17-2008, 06:42 PM
Propaganda to one person is fact to another, right?

No, that's why it's called propaganda. A fact is refutable regardless of opinion. You can have an opinin on a fact, but propaganda is pure rubish with no actual evidence to back it up.

Jeff
10-17-2008, 07:46 PM
http://i37.tinypic.com/330qrdg.jpg

jonathan7
10-17-2008, 07:57 PM
Wrong. Logic is objective. That's why it's logic.

I fully acknowledge that some people are better at recognizing it than others, but that does not mean that the field itself is subjective.

I was more referring to political position etc, over certain other positions - apologies for the confusion. :)

El Sitherino
10-17-2008, 07:58 PM
http://i37.tinypic.com/330qrdg.jpg

Need a post sticky.

Yar-El
10-17-2008, 09:17 PM
:lol: I must have been tired. Propaganda is a bad thing. Excuse my incompatence. :animelol: I don't know what I was thinking. :lol:

Blushing from embaracement.

:lol:

El Sitherino
10-17-2008, 10:18 PM
Blushing from embarackment.

:lol:

So it begins.

Yar-El
10-17-2008, 11:13 PM
So it begins. :xp: :fist: :lol:
Teaches me to think before posting.

Qui-Gon Glenn
10-19-2008, 01:07 AM
Kavar's Corner is interesting because it allows people across the broad spectrum of Star Wars fans to share their thoughts on things other than Star Wars and video games. I was thrilled when I found it, and promptly got put in my place a few times for pomposity, pedantism, and general bullying without reason. Nothing ever made me happier than to have someone with an intelligent voice make me feel foolish for voicing half-baked ideas... it reminded me of grad Phil classes! Without the tuition!

I understand the difficulties of moderating a forum like Kavar's - it mostly has to do with the fact (fact has been sufficiently explained here recently, I think) that our forum base is very broad and diverse, in age, experience, and education - to start with, and obviously many other differences. Not everyone can create an iron-clad argument, with sound evidence and logical structure. Conversely, not everyone is prepared to take the heat from Achilles when they post something absurdly conceived.

I say tough. I love this part of the forum, because it is what it is. Although the poll is closed, that's my thought. I also appreciate that it is here, despite how difficult it is to moderate. A labor of love, that I guess wears a little thin from time to time - especially these days when opinions everywhere are running hot.