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mimartin
10-16-2008, 07:16 PM
Opps, Joe's in trouble now.

Joe the Plumber' says he has no plumbing license (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gJsPHiQlgYvAsrHz9mvHJlezQJLwD93RONUO0)

However: But the county Wurzelbacher and his employer live in, Lucas County, requires plumbers to have licenses. Neither Wurzelbacher nor his employer are licensed there, said Cheryl Schimming of Lucas County Building Regulations, which handles plumber licenses in parts of the county outside Toledo.

Thank you Mr. McCain and Mr. Obama for drawing attention to us small business owners and workers. Please leave mimartin insurance agent in Texas out of your debates and ads. :D

Achilles
10-16-2008, 07:25 PM
MCCAIN STARTED IT!!!

mimartin
10-16-2008, 07:37 PM
I’m trying to be bipartisan before tk bans me for real. :xp:

KinchyB
10-16-2008, 07:57 PM
Opps, Joe's in trouble now.

Joe the Plumber' says he has no plumbing license (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gJsPHiQlgYvAsrHz9mvHJlezQJLwD93RONUO0)

However:

Thank you Mr. McCain and Mr. Obama for drawing attention to us small business owners and workers. Please leave mimartin insurance agent in Texas out of your debates and ads. :D

LOL, nice :)

Random rants about Joe...

Rumor has it that in the next ad McCain will reference his close friend Joe POW, while Obama concentrates on Joe Change, Palin on Joe Moose, and Biden will follow closely behind with Joe Scranton.

Hmmm...I'm sincing a Joe Mama joke in one of the campaigns soon. Anyone care to take a swing at which one? :xp:

GarfieldJL
10-17-2008, 11:58 AM
Wow, a man gets his charecter assassinated (by the media) for asking Obama a question that Obama's response makes Obama look bad.

Seriously, you don't necessarily need to have a plummer license to work at a plummer business.

Shows me that Obama's 10,000 press secretaries are scared that this man could cause Obama to lose.

mimartin
10-17-2008, 12:01 PM
Seriously, you don't necessarily need to have a plummer license to work at a plummer business.According to that county you do. :xp:

GarfieldJL
10-17-2008, 12:22 PM
According to that county you do. :xp:

Show me the statute that he can't even work for a plumbing company because he doesn't have a license even if he isn't the one doing the actual plumbing.


Also because this is the AP, I did some checking and they aren't even telling the whole truth to begin with.

Let me translate for you. One person in a business (in the case of my employer it is the owner) takes the test and qualifies for the license. That license is assigned to the business entity and you can have as many air conditioning technicians (or plumbers) working for that company as long as that license is assigned to an owner or a employee of that.
http://thenightfly.blogspot.com/2008/10/joe-plumber-does-not-need-license.html

In short he doesn't need the license.

(A) “License” means a license the Ohio construction industry licensing board issues to an individual as a heating, ventilating, and air conditioning contractor, refrigeration contractor, electrical contractor, plumbing contractor, or hydronics contractor.

(B) “Contractor” means any individual or business entity that satisfies both of the following:



http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/4740


In other words the AP and other media outlets are being dishonest (as usual), he is employed to a business that holds that license, he'll just need to get the licence if he's going to become the boss.

Achilles
10-17-2008, 12:25 PM
Which has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not he actually has one.

...which has absolutely nothing to do with the election.

KinchyB
10-17-2008, 12:38 PM
In short he doesn't need the license.

[sound of buzzer] Wrong.

Mr. Wurzelbacher said he works under Al Newell’s license, but according to Ohio building regulations, he must maintain his own license to do plumbing work.

link. (http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081016/NEWS09/810160418) ... gotta love local papers.

So, you are correct in that he is (may be was now thanks to McCain) working under his employers license, however, in Ohio he has to maintain his own license in addition. Therefore, if he's doing any plumbing work in Ohio, he is doing it illegally.

BTW... blogs are not the best place to source information. Maybe the sources the blogs use, but not the blogs themselves.

Jae Onasi
10-17-2008, 01:48 PM
Can someone please tell me why the media is having a collective cow about whether the man has a plumbing license or not? If the guy's in some kind of apprenticeship program that could easily explain it, but that's still between Joe and the state of Ohio.
It's also completely irrelevant to the question the man asked Obama. Would Obama have somehow changed his answer if he knew the man had a bona fide full license from Ohio? It has absolutely no bearing on Obama's answer about redistribution of wealth. The real story is Obama's answer, not the plumber's credentials. The truth is Obama said a socialist answer, and for any of us who've looked at Obama's platform, this answer came as absolutely no surprise, but saying 'redistribution of wealth' is going to make conservatives more uncomfortable with Obama than they already are.

Once again, never underestimate the press to get all over-excited over something completely unrelated to anything truly important.

GarfieldJL
10-17-2008, 01:58 PM
[sound of buzzer] Wrong.


Actually you are wrong.



link. (http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081016/NEWS09/810160418) ... gotta love local papers.

So, you are correct in that he is (may be was now thanks to McCain) working under his employers license, however, in Ohio he has to maintain his own license in addition. Therefore, if he's doing any plumbing work in Ohio, he is doing it illegally.

BTW... blogs are not the best place to source information. Maybe the sources the blogs use, but not the blogs themselves.


Why do you think I back check my blog sources? I didn't just use the blog I actually did some back checking and looked up the actual law.

I think the Ohio state government statute trumps a local paper.


As shown in the actual statute which is linked from: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/4740

As used in this chapter:

(A) “License” means a license the Ohio construction industry licensing board issues to an individual as a heating, ventilating, and air conditioning contractor, refrigeration contractor, electrical contractor, plumbing contractor, or hydronics contractor.

(B) “Contractor” means any individual or business entity that satisfies both of the following:

(1) For compensation, directs, supervises, or has responsibility for the means, method, and manner of construction, improvement, renovation, repair, or maintenance on a construction project with respect to one or more trades and who offers, identifies, advertises, or otherwise holds out or represents that the individual or business entity is permitted or qualified to perform, direct, supervise, or have responsibility for the means, method, and manner of construction, improvement, renovation, repair, or maintenance with respect to one or more trades on a construction project;

(2) Performs or employs tradespersons who perform construction, improvement, renovation, repair, or maintenance on a construction project with respect to the contractor’s trades.

(C) “Licensed trade” means a trade performed by a heating, ventilating, and air conditioning contractor, a refrigeration contractor, an electrical contractor, a plumbing contractor, or a hydronics contractor.

(D) “Tradesperson” means an individual employed by a contractor who engages in construction, improvement, renovation, repair, or maintenance of buildings or structures without assuming responsibility for the means, method, or manner of that construction, improvement, renovation, repair, or maintenance.

(E) “Construction project” means a construction project involving a building or structure subject to Chapter 3781. of the Revised Code and the rules adopted under that chapter, but not an industrialized unit or a residential building as defined in section 3781.06 of the Revised Code.

Effective Date: 09-18-2001; 09-16-2004; 05-27-2005; 03-30-2007


In short, as long as his employer has the license and there is a supervisor, he doesn't need a license personally, because his employer holds the license.

He will need to get the license if/when he buys the business though.

mimartin
10-17-2008, 02:05 PM
Why does this matter? Since the owner did not have a license either? Joe is just a man doing his job that asked a question. Now he gets to see fame has its price.

Giant Graffiti
10-17-2008, 02:05 PM
This is what you call an Ad hominem fallacy. :xp:

GarfieldJL
10-17-2008, 02:10 PM
Why does this matter? Since the owner did not have a license either? Joe is just a man doing his job that asked a question. Now he gets to see fame has its price.

If the owner or supervisor (1 of the 2) didn't have a license, then it's their canary, not Joe's. In layman's terms, the people that would get in trouble for not having the license would be the employer, not Joe.


As for the fame having its price, you wouldn't see this level of scrutiny if it were some question that would when answered ended up making McCain look bad.

If anything, this has proven the mainstream media is in the tank for Senator Obama.

KinchyB
10-17-2008, 03:48 PM
He will need to get the license if/when he buys the business though.

Actually, it was pretty specific. he needs a license in order to do plumbing work. BTW... referring to definitions is not the same as referring to a state law. Nice to see how the state defines things though.

Keep in mind, burden of proof is on you. Everyone, here and outside this community is saying he needs a license. Prove that he doesn't, which you haven't done.

Corinthian
10-17-2008, 03:51 PM
Okay, okay, okay, there's one thing I need to say.

The word 'Plumber' is spelled with a B, not two Ms.

mimartin
10-17-2008, 03:55 PM
The word 'Plumber' is spelled with a B, not two Ms.Most constructive post in thread award goes to...Corinthian. Thanks.

GarfieldJL
10-18-2008, 12:42 AM
Actually, it was pretty specific. he needs a license in order to do plumbing work. BTW... referring to definitions is not the same as referring to a state law. Nice to see how the state defines things though.


Actually if you'd read the actual law which I had quoted from the Ohio Government's own website which you apparently haven't you'd find that your statement is inaccurate.

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/4740

Read it, he is a plumber not a plumbing contractor, he doesn't need a license since his employer has the license.


Keep in mind, burden of proof is on you. Everyone, here and outside this community is saying he needs a license. Prove that he doesn't, which you haven't done.

Actually I have cause I quoted the actual law, it says plumbing contractor which he is not, he's just a plumber employed to a plumbing contractor. To be quite frank, I don't really put any faith in the media when it comes to bashing someone who criticized Obama. And this particular subject has demonstrated yet again why I trust Fox News over the propaganda that they call journalism.

However, my point remains, that they've spent more time vetting one guy (Joe) that Obama went on Joe's property and Joe asked Obama a valid question. Because Obama's answer makes Obama look like he's a socialist (which he was a member of the socialist party), they're now trying to distract from that by trying to smear an ordinary American just like you're doing right now.

Well congratulations Mainstream media and Obama Campaign, you just gave out the game changer of the year to McCain on a silver platter.

In all honesty, I don't need to prove anything other than the media being in the tank for Obama, but you've proven that for me already in this topic alone:

Oh and Fox News and the conservative bloggers have all pointed what the Ohio ordinence actually says, which the mainstream media has flat out lied about as you can plainly see in the link I provided in this post.

KinchyB
10-18-2008, 01:02 AM
Read it, he is a plumber not a plumbing contractor, he doesn't need a license since his employer has the license.

Here's a thought, instead of linking the entire law why don't you quote what you are referring to. BTW... the section directly under "4740.01 Construction industry licensing board definitions." are definitions for terms used in the law, not the law itself. Hard to understand I know... but hopefully the use of the word Definition in the section title helps...

Until, burden of proof... you have no proof.

GarfieldJL
10-18-2008, 01:38 AM
Here's a thought, instead of linking the entire law why don't you quote what you are referring to. BTW... the section directly under "4740.01 Construction industry licensing board definitions." are definitions for terms used in the law, not the law itself. Hard to understand I know... but hopefully the use of the word Definition in the section title helps...


I'm just going to bold and underline key parts of it and post the full thing again. Cause if I just post tidbits I'll be acused of distorting it.

As used in this chapter:

(A) “License” means a license the Ohio construction industry licensing board issues to an individual as a heating, ventilating, and air conditioning contractor, refrigeration contractor, electrical contractor, plumbing contractor, or hydronics contractor.

(B) “Contractor” means any individual or business entity that satisfies both of the following:

(1) For compensation, directs, supervises, or has responsibility for the means, method, and manner of construction, improvement, renovation, repair, or maintenance on a construction project with respect to one or more trades and who offers, identifies, advertises, or otherwise holds out or represents that the individual or business entity is permitted or qualified to perform, direct, supervise, or have responsibility for the means, method, and manner of construction, improvement, renovation, repair, or maintenance with respect to one or more trades on a construction project;

(2) Performs or employs tradespersons who perform construction, improvement, renovation, repair, or maintenance on a construction project with respect to the contractor’s trades.

(C) “Licensed trade” means a trade performed by a heating, ventilating, and air conditioning contractor, a refrigeration contractor, an electrical contractor, a plumbing contractor, or a hydronics contractor.

(D) “Tradesperson” means an individual employed by a contractor who engages in construction, improvement, renovation, repair, or maintenance of buildings or structures without assuming responsibility for the means, method, or manner of that construction, improvement, renovation, repair, or maintenance.

(E) “Construction project” means a construction project involving a building or structure subject to Chapter 3781. of the Revised Code and the rules adopted under that chapter, but not an industrialized unit or a residential building as defined in section 3781.06 of the Revised Code.

Effective Date: 09-18-2001; 09-16-2004; 05-27-2005; 03-30-2007


And here is the source again: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/4740

Until, burden of proof... you have no proof.

I don't know I think the actual law proving me verbatum kinda proves my point.

And Joe qualifies as a tradesman.

KinchyB
10-18-2008, 01:46 AM
And Joe qualifies as a tradesman.

Yes, Joe may be a tradesman, however, your post does not point out if he goes into a house does some plumbing work without a license if it is legal or not...why... becuase you are only referencing the definition of the terms used in the law not the law itself. You have to read past the definition of terms section in order to view the specifics of the law.

GarfieldJL
10-18-2008, 02:23 AM
Yes, Joe may be a tradesman, however, your post does not point out if he goes into a house does some plumbing work without a license if it is legal or not...why... becuase you are only referencing the definition of the terms used in the law not the law itself. You have to read past the definition of terms section in order to view the specifics of the law.

So you're saying a tradesman cannot do their job?

Don't give me that garbage, actually quote in the law where it says that cause if that's accurate you should probably have to arrest a good number of members from the plumbing union in Ohio.

Anyways, where are the media trucks outside Bill Ayers' home? We've seen more coverage into the life of a guy that simply asked a question, than we've seen into Obama's past the entire Presidential Election.

Inyri
10-18-2008, 02:24 AM
So you're saying a tradesman cannot do their job?No, he didn't say that...?

Anyways, where are the media trucks outside Bill Ayers' home?Why don't you call up FoxNews and recommend they send one over? Or ask them why they aren't. :)

Achilles
10-18-2008, 02:24 AM
We've seen more coverage into the life of a guy that simply asked a question, than we've seen into Obama's past the entire Presidential Election.You really equate 3 days of minor scrutiny to 20+ months of vetting?

ADFO

GarfieldJL
10-18-2008, 02:29 AM
You really equate 3 days of minor scrutiny to 20+ months of vetting?

ADFO

What vetting, aside from Sean Hannity and Fox News, the rest of the Media has been taking Obama's statements as gospel truth.

And when they finally reported on anything they distorted and outright lied.


Kinda hard to vet someone when you think they're the messiah.

KinchyB
10-18-2008, 02:36 AM
So you're saying a tradesman cannot do their job?

Nope, i'm saying without a license he may be working illegally. You say he's legal, while everyone else says he's not. Prove it is legal for him to work in ohio. Him being a tradesman is irrellevant to the legality of his work.

Don't give me that garbage, actually quote in the law where it says that cause if that's accurate you should probably have to arrest a good number of members from the plumbing union in Ohio.

I'm assuming you can point out your own assumption and fallacy here...?

Anyways, where are the media trucks outside Bill Ayers' home? We've seen more coverage into the life of a guy that simply asked a question, than we've seen into Obama's past the entire Presidential Election.

Ahh yes, a classic tactic here. This particular tactic is usually used when one party is noticeably failing in his argument, so they bring up another issue completely unrelated to the topic at hand. Spin = Failed.

Achilles
10-18-2008, 02:42 AM
What vetting, aside from Sean Hannity and Fox News, the rest of the Media has been taking Obama's statements as gospel truth.

And when they finally reported on anything they distorted and outright lied.


Kinda hard to vet someone when you think they're the messiah.Premise 1: Obama is guilty of everything he's accused of.
Premise 2: Legitimate news sources will find evidence of Obama's guilt.
Conclusion: News sources that fail to find evidence of Obama's guilt aren't legitimate.

This is your argument. This is why starting with a conclusion and working backwards causes people to lose credibility.

So let's try this:

If Obama is accused of something, legitimate news sources investigate and find nothing, what does that mean?

ADFO

GarfieldJL
10-18-2008, 03:22 AM
And I'm saying they haven't done the investigating because I first knew of the Rev. Wright and Bill Ayers over 23 monthes ago.

And the media is only just now picking up on the bare surface of it.

Achilles
10-18-2008, 03:29 AM
Right. Hillary brought it up. Everyone looked. Everyone except right-wing nutjobs saw that there was nothing and after seeing that it was nothing let it go.

So your argument that it's somehow "just now" being picked up is patently false.

ADFO

Jae Onasi
10-18-2008, 09:32 PM
Ohio plumbing license law (http://www.contractors-license.org/oh/Ohio.html)
OH law says one has to have 5 years of experience in the plumbing field in order to apply for a license in Ohio, which means they work as an apprentice under someone else learning the trade before they can apply for their own license. This is not really that different from someone who provides care as a student nurse or doctor under the auspices of another professional during their training.

GarfieldJL
10-25-2008, 08:19 PM
Breaking News:

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/25/report-government-computers-used-information-joe-plumber/

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2008/10/24/joe.html?sid=101

There is an investigation as to whether or not information on "Joe" was illegally obtained through government computers.

Yar-El
10-25-2008, 08:45 PM
I don't mean to sound uncaring; however, does Joe the Plumber's background matter? I think the media took this thing too literally. Now they have every Jane and John Doe invading his personal life. Who cares. Joe the Plumber is a figure of speech; thus, its used similar to Joe's Bar and Grill. This is not McCain's or Obama's fault. Its the media's fault for taking the statement literally.

I don't understand why people hack into other people's buisness. Does anyone have a sense of privacy anymore? Come one.

Tell me this - Who really cares about the guy's personal life? Does it matter?

Are we grownups here? Children do this crazy stuff at school.

GarfieldJL
10-29-2008, 05:45 PM
Update:

There have now been people charged in the accessing of information on Joe:

Report Clerk Charged with Misconduct for Unlawfully Accessing Information on 'Joe the Plumber' (http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/29/report-clerk-charged-misconduct-unlawfully-accessing-information-joe-plumber/)

El Sitherino
10-29-2008, 06:01 PM
... What the **** does this have to do with politics?


I love you mimartin, but I'm closing this like it should have been after it was made. :|