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Darth_Yuthura
10-21-2008, 06:33 PM
Do people have great joy that there is a conclusion to the KOTOR series, or does it detract from the original two games?

ReplicatorJade
10-21-2008, 06:36 PM
Well, from what I've read and heard so far, its like its a new game, new storyline, dressed up a little different, but just happens to have Old Republic in the title.

I don't even think it should be consider Kotor game. Because its really not. Its something new hundreds of years later.

jrrtoken
10-21-2008, 06:36 PM
No, no, no. The is LucasArts' greatest blaspheme: The alienation of all fans who begged for KotOR III, but instead we have a money-making product which is nothing what I wanted.

Da_Man_2423
10-21-2008, 06:47 PM
No, no, no. The is LucasArts' greatest blaspheme: The alienation of all fans who begged for KotOR III, but instead we have a money-making product which is nothing what I wanted.

They care what you want....why?

TKA-001
10-21-2008, 06:49 PM
Is TOR as good as KOTOR III?
In short, no.

In long, nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

the-obiwan
10-21-2008, 07:03 PM
In short, no.

In long, nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

i know... we want kotor 3 why the hell they dont hear the fans!!! gosh they should stop thinking of money money and money.

Razgriz1928
10-21-2008, 07:05 PM
Quote:

"2:26 Scooter: But he's talking about a game for KOTOR fans who don't play MMOs"

Scooter from 1up at the event.

ReplicatorJade
10-21-2008, 07:06 PM
i know... we want kotor 3 why the hell they dont hear the fans!!! gosh they should stop thinking of money money and money.

I'm gonna guess that it wasn't the money they were worried about since it is a Star Wars game and they know that a certain percentage of people will buy it just because it has star wars on the label.

But with all the new game and video graphics, they probably wanted to make something new, advanced and young. Which is BS! Since it should be about the graphics, but the story.
That's the world for you! Greedy Jerks!

Razgriz1928
10-21-2008, 07:10 PM
I think its awesome. I'm definatley getting both games.

Jeff
10-21-2008, 07:15 PM
I enjoy MMOs so I think I am probably just as excited for SWToR as I would be for a KotOR 3.

SW01
10-21-2008, 07:34 PM
I think that such a huge gap makes the story of TSL a little...remote. It seems more of a new era than a continuation of the last in that respect. That in itself is not an altogether bad thing, but I personally would have preferred the outstanding era to be resolved first.

Yar-El
10-21-2008, 07:40 PM
Here is the catch -

4:38 Scooter: "most MMOs have background, and the people you MEET have a story, but YOU don't have a story" Revan and Exile had a story that included the player character's participation. We no longer have this element.

Jeff
10-21-2008, 07:41 PM
Actually we do, they were saying that is typical in most MMOs, but in this one you will have an individual story.

DarthHK
10-21-2008, 08:13 PM
Actually we do, they were saying that is typical in most MMOs, but in this one you will have an individual story.

It just doesn't work as well with 2189470128410948112034 "the ones" running amok begging for "1337 1007" and "sabverz."

I'm going off to weep.

Ctrl Alt Del
10-21-2008, 08:48 PM
The good conclusion would have been an offline one. It could be set 500 ABY and still call it a direct sequel to the TSL as long as it stayed SP for me.

Actually we do, they were saying that is typical in most MMOs, but in this one you will have an individual story.

Yeah, as a trader or farmer maybe. Perhaps a fighter pilot at best. I can't really think of players getting any significant role on such a world.

Darth_Yuthura
10-21-2008, 09:17 PM
I think that TSL was just ended with a conflict so great that they couldn't come up with a dramatic conclusion for it. Odds are that they were interested in selling a third installment that they tried to make the best cliffhanger they could for TSL.

This was clearly meant for the KOTOR fans, but is not a conclusion for the cliffhanger they left from TSL. This is the WORST way they could have continued the franchise. At least before, the ending was open to the imagination. Now it's carved in stone that KOTOR III was never going to be.

This is an abomination that killed KOTOR!

Ctrl Alt Del
10-21-2008, 09:26 PM
I think that TSL was just ended with a conflict so great that they couldn't come up with a dramatic conclusion for it. Odds are that they were interested in selling a third installment that they tried to make the best cliffhanger they could for TSL.
I refuse to believe they couldn't come up with a decent ending for that cliffhanger. They're more likely exploiting the gold mine that the starved KotOR fans have become while we're still dry.

Jae Onasi
10-21-2008, 09:30 PM
Is TOR better than Kotor 3? That's like asking 'is the Chateau Lafite 2066 wine better than the Chateau Margaux 2075?'. We can hardly compare without having both. :)

Ctrl Alt Del
10-21-2008, 09:33 PM
^ Instead, you might just as well go for a beer.

Yar-El
10-21-2008, 09:40 PM
Is TOR better than Kotor 3? That's like asking 'is the Chateau Lafite 2066 wine better than the Chateau Margaux 2075?'. We can hardly compare without having both. :) Judging the second wine requires tasting and experiencing both. Very articulate. :)

Darth_Yuthura
10-21-2008, 09:57 PM
Is TOR better than Kotor 3? That's like asking 'is the Chateau Lafite 2066 wine better than the Chateau Margaux 2075?'. We can hardly compare without having both. :)

That wasn't the question I posted. The majority of fans looking forward to this game were KOTOR fans and wanted KOTOR III. Instead, they got... this.

It is NOT what Lucasarts had advertised it to be. Who had been waiting for something that they did not know exist?

Who here have been waiting for TOR? I most certainly wasn't!

Ctrl Alt Del
10-21-2008, 10:03 PM
It is NOT what Lucasarts had advertised it to be.
What did they really advertised then?

True_Avery
10-21-2008, 10:04 PM
Who here have been waiting for TOR? I most certainly wasn't!
*Raises Hand*

Yes, there are those that would have liked Kotor3. I, personally, found the idea of an MMO to be quite nice.

Jae Onasi
10-21-2008, 10:29 PM
If I hadn't started playing Guild Wars and got a good MMO experience from that, I'd probably be unhappy about this being an MMO instead of a SP RPG. However, with the MMO experience under my belt, I'm a lot more receptive to the idea of a Kotor MMO, so I am actually looking forward to this game quite a bit.

I sure hope they have family pricing, because I bet the entire family will want to play. :lol:

Darth_Yuthura
10-21-2008, 10:30 PM
Lucasarts was referring to the 5-year wait for KOTOR III. There was NOTHING indicating something other than KOTOR and I would not imagine anyone who were waiting for the third installment would have wanted this. This is a new thing, yet it was portrayed as a continuation of the KOTOR franchise.

Lucasarts is abandoning KOTOR and saying this is what the fans have been wanting for five years... it's not.

Darth_Yuthura
10-21-2008, 10:36 PM
If I hadn't started playing Guild Wars and got a good MMO experience from that, I'd probably be unhappy about this being an MMO instead of a SP RPG. However, with the MMO experience under my belt, I'm a lot more receptive to the idea of a Kotor MMO, so I am actually looking forward to this game quite a bit.

I sure hope they have family pricing, because I bet the entire family will want to play. :lol:

I should clarify something. I wasn't specific enough when I was polling. My intent was to ask if people wanted the story to take place 10-20 years down the line, or if they are satisfied that 350 would not be too much for them to assume that this is suitable enough for K3, or if it's something completely different.

I WILL not get this game because it is a fake attempt to satisfy KOTOR fans with something completely different than what they made it out to be. How many SW fans do you think assumed this was a new franchise altogether(and not the final installment of KOTOR)?

True_Avery
10-21-2008, 10:38 PM
Lucasarts was referring to the 5-year wait for KOTOR III. There was NOTHING indicating something other than KOTOR and I would not imagine anyone who were waiting for the third installment would have wanted this. This is a new thing, yet it was portrayed as a continuation of the KOTOR franchise.

Lucasarts is abandoning KOTOR and saying this is what the fans have been wanting for five years... it's not.
I never believed a K3 was coming in the first place personally. I saw the very, very unfinished TSL and the way LA treated Obsidian during that time and put the puzzle together:

LA was not going to make another unless it was made by Bioware. Except, Bioware has had things like Mass Effect and such under its nose for the time being, so it was a surprise to hear that a studio was put together to work on a Lucas/Bioware project. Then it was announced Bioware was working on an MMO, and it only made sense to me to put the two together.

The MMO looks to be trying to take the Guild Wars route, meaning that its a multiplayer game with aspects of both. With this, I can play this game for possibly years. I would be done with K3 in a week or less, however, and would just be waiting all over again.

Darth_Yuthura
10-21-2008, 11:00 PM
^

As you wish. I'll say that lucasarts won't be profiting off me for making something and advertising something completely different. As far as I'm concerned, people who buy what they don't want simply because there is nothing else available are only encouraging companies like lucasarts to keep giving you more of what you don't want.

If you want K3 to come out, then tell lucasarts that you won't buy anything besides that. If enough do that, then garbage like "the old republic" won't be made.

Da_Man_2423
10-21-2008, 11:04 PM
If you want K3 to come out, then tell lucasarts that you won't buy anything besides that. If enough do that, then they will make K3 and not something you didn't want.

Good luck with that crusade. Don't think it'll work though.

True_Avery
10-21-2008, 11:07 PM
^

As you wish. I'll say that lucasarts won't be profiting off me for making something and advertising something completely different. As far as I'm concerned, people who buy what they don't want simply because there is nothing else available are only encouraging companies like lucasarts to keep giving you more of what you don't want.

If you want K3 to come out, then tell lucasarts that you won't buy anything besides that. If enough do that, then garbage like "the old republic" won't be made.
I don't actually ever recall LF or Bioware ever advertising K3. At all.

The news we have been getting over the past few years is "We are working together" "Its a joint project" "Team in Austin" "MMO"

Both completely denied anything relating to Kotor until EA let it slip, and the announcement today.

If you have any Kotor3 ad links available, I'd be delighted to see them however.

Darth_Yuthura
10-21-2008, 11:15 PM
"The wait is over."

What does that mean? It has a direct reference to the KOTOR era where nothing else in the SW universe comes close to that point in history. TSL has never been resolved. They include 'Revan' in the description. It's directed at KOTOR fans.

A reasonable supposition can be made. This is to pacify the fans for now so that they can make a K3 after this if successful.

Prime
10-21-2008, 11:16 PM
I'll say that lucasarts won't be profiting off me for making something and advertising something completely different. Link?

True_Avery
10-21-2008, 11:18 PM
"The wait is over."

What does that mean? It has a direct reference to the KOTOR era where nothing else in the SW universe comes close to that point in history. TSL has never been resolved. They include 'Revan' in the description. It's directed at KOTOR fans.

A reasonable supposition can be made. This is to pacify the fans for now so that they can make a K3 after this if successful.
"The Wait Is Over" means the Wait is Over. It doesn't specifically say K3 or Revan on the cover.

And, from experience with multiple MMOs, an MMO is here to stay for a long time. They wouldn't spend years working on something so large only to use it as a pacifier for the real treat.

If you don't believe me, ask the people that are still waiting for Warcraft IV.

Darth_Yuthura
10-21-2008, 11:18 PM
Good luck with that crusade. Don't think it'll work though.

It only doesn't work because the KOTOR fans would be willing to buy something that they didn't ask for. I'm not launching a crusade, but encouraging everyone to object to this game if they wanted K3 and NOT to buy this if they don't want it.

stoffe
10-21-2008, 11:19 PM
As far as I'm concerned, people who buy what they don't want simply because there is nothing else available are only encouraging companies like lucasarts to keep giving you more of what you don't want.

Sometimes you don't know what you want until you've tried it though (unless you're only interested in "more of the same" games I guess). Some of the best games I've ever played were blind purchases that I didn't know much about in advance, that I mostly picked up because they were cheap to fill out shipping of other games.

Going into something with no expectations and just judging the experience by its own merit can pleasantly surprise you in some cases. :)

Personally I'm reserving judgment until I know more about this game, what the gameplay and story will be like, how much it will cost, and preferably getting a chance to try it out. :)

Darth_Yuthura
10-21-2008, 11:25 PM
Link?

I think that if you need a link to be convinced of this, then you must not be looking at all. Go into the KOTOR forums and most everything implies(but does not directly conclude) that it was a multi-player online KOTOR project.

If it will make you happy, then I'll see what I can do.

(THE ISSUE IS THAT I AM NOT FAMILIAR WITH INSERTING LINKS IN THESE POSTS, NOT THAT THE LINKS DON'T EXIST.)

True_Avery
10-21-2008, 11:31 PM
I think that if you need a link to be convinced of this, then you must not be looking at all.
Hey now, no need to be hostile.

Go into the KOTOR forums and most everything implies(but does not directly conclude) that it was a multi-player online KOTOR project.
Knights Of The Old Republic.

It is set in the Old Republic, and you can play as a Jedi Knight. Seems Kotor to me, just now Massively Multiplayer.

If anything, TSL is the odd child out in this situation. Unfinished, unresolved, and made by a different company using many different characters.

(THE ISSUE IS THAT I AM NOT FAMILIAR WITH INSERTING LINKS IN THESE POSTS, NOT THAT THE LINKS DON'T EXIST.)
Ctrl+c and then Ctrl+v

Prime
10-21-2008, 11:35 PM
I think that if you need a link to be convinced of this, then you must not be looking at all. Go into the KOTOR forums and most everything implies(but does not directly conclude) that it was a multi-player online KOTOR project.Which they delivered. You claimed they did not. Again, link?

Darth_Yuthura
10-21-2008, 11:49 PM
Which they delivered. You claimed they did not. Again, link?

No, they delivered "The Old Republic"

Here are your links and tell me how many before the release assumed it was something completely different from KOTOR. Answer: Almost none

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?p=2542444#post2542444 Of which you seemed to have already seen AND posted to

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/starw...opslot;thumb;1

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=190014

http://www.portfolio.com/views/blogs...e-old-republic



I'm also going to end this here because I'm not really interested in people who want to squander their money on rubbish they don't want.

Please keep your anger in check.

~T_A

Prime
10-22-2008, 12:09 AM
Here are your links and tell me how many before the release assumed it was something completely different from KOTOR. Answer: Almost noneYou mean to tell me that you see almost no connection between the current KOTOR games and what is being announced here? Seriously?

Jae Onasi
10-22-2008, 12:11 AM
I'm also going to end this here because I'm not really interested in people who want to squander their money on rubbish they don't want.

How do you know a. it's rubbish and more importantly, b. something I don't want? I actually do want this game, even if it's not K3 SP RPG.

True_Avery
10-22-2008, 12:21 AM
No, they delivered "The Old Republic"
They made no promise to you at all. They never once made an advertisement for Knights of the Old Republic 3. They promised a joint project by Bioware and LA, and they gave it. They said it would take place in the Old Republic, which it has.

I recommend looking into the wookiepedia article on the Old Republic. Into the comic series, games, etc and you'll find it is much larger than 2 games.

I'm also going to end this here because I'm not really interested in people who want to squander their money on rubbish they don't want.
The thing is, some of us do in fact want an MMO over K3. Myself included.

And thank you for ending here. I would hope that you will keep your anger in check and refrain from being hostile in the future towards other members.

Yar-El
10-22-2008, 12:32 AM
Its getting harder and harder for me to not become a hypocrite. I will have to wait and see how things go. I wonder how the pricing will be.

Prime
10-22-2008, 09:38 AM
This poll needs the option for liking that fact it is 300 years after KOTOR so as not to really interfere with that storyline (comics included).

Darth_Yuthura
10-22-2008, 11:00 AM
This poll needs the option for liking that fact it is 300 years after KOTOR so as not to really interfere with that storyline (comics included).

It does interfere because it explicitly shows that everything after TSL does not get resolved for another 300 years.

My anger is not the lucasarts has chosen an MMO instead of KOTOR 3, but that their MMO killed all possibility of KOTOR 3. If Lucasarts wanted an MMO, they should have had it 5-20 years after KOTOR and regarded it as a continuation of that storyline, or not touched KOTOR in any degree.

Ztalker
10-22-2008, 12:08 PM
It does interfere because it explicitly shows that everything after TSL does not get resolved for another 300 years.

My anger is not the lucasarts has chosen an MMO instead of KOTOR 3, but that their MMO killed all possibility of KOTOR 3. If Lucasarts wanted an MMO, they should have had it 5-20 years after KOTOR and regarded it as a continuation of that storyline, or not touched KOTOR in any degree.

Ehm? Killed Kotor 3?

Hello 300 years of...nothingness? In The MMO the Sith have RECENTLY surfaced and laid waste to the Galaxy. Not 2 seconds after the Exile's departure.
Also, we see a rebuild Jedi order. Atton, Bao-Dur, Deciple must have done their job very well!

And..ehm...5-20 years after Kotor? Big raid to kill Revan for his Ubermask of +5 vs Lucasforums Moderators" ?

Nope. Revan and the Exile are to valuable. They don't make the same 'mistake' as Blizzard, where in WoW you can kill every great hero from the Warcraft RTS games.

I think this is the better way. A beautiful statue of Bao-Dur in the Jedi halls, a portrait of Revan in Sith academy...some holocrons in which they speak to you...the 'Onasi-class star Destroyer" etc etc.

I think this way, they leave the mystery untouched.

So, I agree with True_Avery.
Some people want this. There are great arguments pro and con, but the cons (the one's you have us) don't have monopoly on the truth.

@ Prime: Crap, you already brought in my '300 years is good' argument.

Prime
10-22-2008, 01:36 PM
It does interfere because it explicitly shows that everything after TSL does not get resolved for another 300 years.How does no information = nothing happens?

We get some info from the games and the rest is now free to be explored by the comics (and other media), which have done a create job expanding that era so far. Hell we already have some info from the MMO blurb.

Pikmin
10-22-2008, 01:59 PM
*Snipped* Both BioWare and LA said the reason for making K3 an MMO is that:

http://www.massively.com/2008/10/21/star-wars-the-old-republic-mmo-to-replace-kotor-3/

I like the Idea of leaving the mystery of what happened...? unsolved(for the most part.)

A beautiful statue of Bao-Dur in the Jedi halls, a portrait of Revan in Sith academy...some holocrons in which they speak to you...the 'Onasi-class star Destroyer" etc etc.


Yeah, that would indeed be sweet.

It kinda makes since that the True Sith waited to attack, they wanted revenge on the Jedi, and with possibly 3-8 alive where would the satisfaction be?(especially with most of the 3-8 Jedi(or Sith) being newbs). They waited till the Exile's disciples had fully rebuilt the Order.

I understand your frustration, but please don't resort to name calling. Thanks!

~T_A

CrisG
10-22-2008, 02:11 PM
Your poll topics are biased and do not allow us to be honest...I relish the chance to continue the game story and it is fine that it is later on, there are huge jumps in time throughout the SW canon and that is part of the overall way it is told. I wish people would be grateful we can return to the journey and be positive about the great effort being made on our behalf here. This is a fine extension of the KOTOR story and is not only KOTOR III but IV, V, VI, VII and so on as they specifically said.

Learn we will, being patient.

Feagildin
10-22-2008, 02:15 PM
I didn't vote in the poll, because the poll doesn't feature and option which reflects my view. I like the game concept. I like the artwork. I would absolutely LOVE to play from day one. However, I will probably not be able to due to finances. =( Unless there isn't a monthly fee. *crosses fingers*

Da_Man_2423
10-22-2008, 03:54 PM
Unless there isn't a monthly fee. *crosses fingers*

There will be. You'd better pray damn hard for some divine intervention, and even then it'd probably still happen.

RyuuKage
10-22-2008, 04:23 PM
"The Wait Is Over" means the Wait is Over. It doesn't specifically say K3 or Revan on the cover.

And, from experience with multiple MMOs, an MMO is here to stay for a long time. They wouldn't spend years working on something so large only to use it as a pacifier for the real treat.

If you don't believe me, ask the people that are still waiting for Warcraft IV.

name one thing any significant number of people were waiting for then...K3 and BF3 are the only things that come to mind, and BF3's development is a well-known secret.

Face it, the only thing anyone was waiting for was K3, not an MMO, regardless of it's setting. Much less one with such an anticlimactic end for Revan and the Exile: "So they both went to fight off the big bad True Sith but instead got pwned or converted to the Dark side, the end..."

True_Avery
10-22-2008, 06:49 PM
name one thing any significant number of people were waiting for then...K3 and BF3 are the only things that come to mind, and BF3's development is a well-known secret.

Face it, the only thing anyone was waiting for was K3, not an MMO, regardless of it's setting. Much less one with such an anticlimactic end for Revan and the Exile: "So they both went to fight off the big bad True Sith but instead got pwned or converted to the Dark side, the end..."
"Significant number" is relative. While people were waiting for both games, I don't think we have an actual statistic showing the majority wanted K3.

And, as has already been stated, what make this MMO not part of the continuity? Sure, it is set 300 years after, but it is promised to have a story and I'll trust Bioware on that for now. If they can pull it off Guild Wars style, what you will basically be playing is a very, very, large and multiplayer single player RPG.

And it is set 4000-3500 years before. We all knew Revan and Exile were eventually going to die, and we have yet to actually discover if either are dead or alive. Jedi, including human Jedi, have been known to live for extraordinary amounts of time and considering Revan was some super powered Sith Lord and Exile is not -technically- alive, who is to say they are completely gone?

You can push it aside, but I thought it was an MMO and hoped it was an MMO the day it was released that Bioware was working on one.

RyuuKage
10-22-2008, 06:58 PM
You can push it aside, but I thought it was an MMO and hoped it was an MMO the day it was released that Bioware was working on one.

i think most of us knew that, we just weren't waiting in anticipation...dread maybe...lol

Just based on some of the things in the Sith Empire descriptions, I've got what will likely be a common theory as to the identity of this shady Emperor...who knows, lol.

Darth_Yuthura
10-22-2008, 07:18 PM
*Snipped* Both BioWare and LA said the reason for making K3 an MMO is that:

http://www.massively.com/2008/10/21/star-wars-the-old-republic-mmo-to-replace-kotor-3/

I like the Idea of leaving the mystery of what happened...? unsolved(for the most part.)

I would like to clarify something for everyone to ensure that they get something straight:

TOR and KOTOR III are NOT the same, but TOR as it is known explicitly declares that Revan and the Exile leave and never return. Then 350 years later, the enemies they went out to fight invade and conquer the Republic. This means that the climactic end to KOTOR is that the heros died or were converted.

It would be like the ending of episode three and then hearing that it wasn't for 350 years that the Emperor was defeated. That detracts from everything at the end of episode three.

If Lucasarts wants an MMO, make it take place directly after TSL, or don't touch KOTOR at all.

Prime
10-22-2008, 07:23 PM
It would be like the ending of episode three and then hearing that it wasn't for 350 years that the Emperor was defeated. That detracts from everything at the end of episode three.In your opinion.

Rev7
10-22-2008, 07:31 PM
It will never be the same, but it is something that we have to live with.

Web Rider
10-22-2008, 07:32 PM
The setting of the MMO is fine, but only fine for separating itself from the previous too games. It's far too far down the road to be a conclusive ending to the trilogy. I mean, would Return of the Jedi or Revenge of the Sith have felt like it concluded the Clone Wars or the falle of the Empire if the movie was set 300 years after Empire Strikes Back or Attack of the Clones?


The only possible reason, IMO, to set it this far in the future, is to leave room for a "K3" in between, or simply because they didn't want to deal with all the problems they created by failing to wrap up the universe of Kotor1+2.

True_Avery
10-22-2008, 07:41 PM
TOR and KOTOR III are NOT the same, but TOR as it is known explicitly declares that Revan and the Exile leave and never return. Then 350 years later, the enemies they went out to fight invade and conquer the Republic. This means that the climactic end to KOTOR is that the heros died or were converted.
The climactic end is that they both went into the unknown and we know not what happened.

Really, the climactic end is that 3500 years later a Sith Lord puts the final bullet into the head of both the Jedi and the Republic. Even when Luke tried to put them back together, neither have recovered well. So, really, all of this is for naught as we already know what happens.

It would be like the ending of episode three and then hearing that it wasn't for 350 years that the Emperor was defeated. That detracts from everything at the end of episode three.
It wasn't for another like, 23 years right? The hero fell to the Dark Side, killed or attempted to kill everyone he loved, and then ruled the Galaxy with an iron fist for 20 something years until his son came along and turns him back before he dies.

Star Wars is known for redemption, but not so much for a happy road along the way. Revan and Exile are Mary Sue characters, and after how godly the lore made both of them out to be its almost a releif to see that they both have/had weaknesses.

But, again, we still do not know what happened to them. Revan was apparently incredibly powerful and knew a lot of extinct teachings. Exile is -technically- not alive, and is more of a moving hole in the Force that eats off of what is around her. Outside of time, I don't see a whole lot of reason as to why they are both not still out there in some way.

Except, everyone has to die somehow. We cannot follow every year of these people's lives to the book, and even a shorter time skip would just have us playing one of them, or another god like Jedi character. Although the storytelling is fantastic, the Old Republican is slowly filling with too many characters with plot armor.

If Lucasarts wants an MMO, make it take place directly after TSL, or don't touch KOTOR at all.
Directly after TSL the Republic is still on the brink of total collapse and the Jedi are extinct. Its going to take at least 100 years before the Jedi are a force to be reckoned with again, and the Republic is recovering from a Galaxy wide depression and a Military that just went through almost 4 wars in a row.

It got 300 years to recover and then was mauled once again by Sith, this time making all the way to Coruscant. Now we have a cold war on our hands, which is a great way to put a world together in my book. (See, World of Warcraft)

Just my 2cents.

The only possible reason, IMO, to set it this far in the future, is to leave room for a "K3" in between, or simply because they didn't want to deal with all the problems they created by failing to wrap up the universe of Kotor1+2.
Agreed. 300 years is a long time, and LA has proven already that they like to fill every single second of their universe up.

Darth_Yuthura
10-22-2008, 07:41 PM
In your opinion.

In many people's opinions I believe.

And before anyone demands proof of something you already know... don't.

If you object to what I say, then why don't you try to convince me that TOR is better 300 years after KOTOR than 5-20 after TSL. Why would KOTOR fans be glad to know that the ending goes badly?

(Before you ask for more proof, then you provide real proof that the majority of KOTOR fans are glad to know Revan and the Exile died and failed)

TKA-001
10-22-2008, 07:42 PM
we have yet to actually discover if either are dead or alive.
No. We don't. Even considering the possibility of Revan, the Exile, or any of their companions being alive for so long is absurd.

Jedi, including human Jedi, have been known to live for extraordinary amounts of time
Yeah? Like who?

In your opinion.
It's only her/his opinion according to your opinion, Pr.

Web Rider
10-22-2008, 07:51 PM
If you object to what I say, then why don't you try to convince me that TOR is better 300 years after KOTOR than 5-20 after TSL. Why would KOTOR fans be glad to know that the ending goes badly?
It takes place long after K2 because K3 would HAVE to revolve around fixing the galaxy. 300 years later they can claim the galaxy has fixed itsself, and it's a NEW problem.

(Before you ask for more proof, then you provide real proof that the majority of KOTOR fans are glad to know Revan and the Exile died and failed)
yes, I AM glad they're dead.

TKA-001
10-22-2008, 08:03 PM
yes, I AM glad they're dead.
I second that, and anyone who believes that they should have succeeded with few or no casualties on the part of them and their party members (predictable sacrifices on the part of Atton, Bastila, Carth, and any other potential sacrifice-ees notwithstanding) officially has no imagination.

Darth_Yuthura
10-22-2008, 08:06 PM
It takes place long after K2 because K3 would HAVE to revolve around fixing the galaxy. 300 years later they can claim the galaxy has fixed itsself, and it's a NEW problem.


Then this is not KOTOR at all. This means that you've proven my point. Anyone who wanted KOTOR III will find that Lucasarts has given them something completely different.

They haven't fixed the old problem before they started the new one.


yes, I AM glad they're dead.

No, you are an individual who stands alone on this. That's a bit arrogant for you to claim your opinion is worth so much.

Tommycat
10-22-2008, 08:06 PM
My biggest gripes with KotOR were that they weren't long enough. I wanted more. The first was complete, but just a bit too short. TSL was incomplete and short. That is the advantage of the MMO. It is able to have a huge long lasting story. Far greater than could be squished onto a single DVD. I mean I really wanted to explore the worlds. I wanted to wander around and see what all else there was. Instead I had barricades that could not be crossed. The tombs were tiny(for the most part). City planets that you only see tiny fractions of. When you have terabytes of storage, you can have a huge game. I don't like buying a bunch of games. I'd rather buy one that I can play for a long time. So in essence, I'm saying that yes I wanted TOR instead of KotORIII

They finished the story lines. They disposed of the main characters. If Revan had been in the second game as the antagonist or protagonist, I can see how you could draw the parallel to the films. but a cameo appearance and mentioning him going off to fight the true Sith, basically sealed his fate. If Vader or Luke had not been in Empire would a third movie have been made?

edit: Oh and I'm glad they are dead too.

TKA-001
10-22-2008, 08:11 PM
No, you are an individual who stands alone on this. Arrogant enough to believe your opinion is worth so much?
*Snipped* What matters is whether he's right or not, not how many of him there are. Do you seriously suggest that your opinion outranks his just because there's more of you than him?

While I appreciate the thought, backseat moderating is not needed. In the future, please use the Report function.

~T_A

True_Avery
10-22-2008, 08:36 PM
No, you are an individual who stands alone on this. Arrogant enough to believe your opinion is worth so much?
You have already been informed of your flaming and disregard for the opinions of others. You have been given 1 Infraction. If you continue to act in this behavior, harsher action will be taken. Any questions can be directed at me via the Private Message system.

If you, or anyone else would like to see the rules then please visit these two links:
Forum Rules: http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=193186
Infractions: http://www.lucasforums.com/faq.php?faq=lf_faq#faq_lf_faq_infractions

Yar-El
10-22-2008, 08:50 PM
If you object to what I say, then why don't you try to convince me that TOR is better 300 years after KOTOR than 5-20 after TSL. Why would KOTOR fans be glad to know that the ending goes badly? I know this is not a question for me; however, I will give you a good reason why 300 is better. Hidden in the tombs and characters on Korriban and Dantooine you learn about the past. We searched through tombs and consoles to learn about the older Jedi and Sith generations. Knights of the Old Republic opened this new stretch of Star Wars history. Making a third game anywhere close to the events of The Sith Lords would be completely repetitive. We already know about the past; thus, there would be nothing new to learn. Exploring the tombs and archives deep into the future will recapture the essence of Knights 1. Why? There will be newer stories to tell, and a good 300 years of history to catch up with. Revan and Exile are now legends. Questions The Old Republic will answer may include - What happened to Revan and Exile? - What happened when Revan confronted the Sith Emporer? - Did Revan and Exile get together? - Did Revan and Exile clash in combat? - What happened to the world around them? Starting a game right after they left will give you nothing new. There is no more history to learn. We now have 300 years of history to shift through. We may learn about the rise and fall of new Sith Lords.

Knights 1 provided us with a fully functional Dantooine and Korriban. Knights II provided us with the Jedi Civil War aftermath; thus, Dantooine and Korriban were in a complete mess. There was no more mysteries to solve on these planets. Homes to the Sith and Jedi were completely wipped out. Putting the game 300 years into the future will return us to grave robbing, artifact finding, and many other elements made famous in Knights 1.

Knights 2 left some unanswered questions; however, you don't really learn anything epic about Sith and Jedi history. Go back to those feeling you had during Knights 1. You searched all these tombs and mysterious locations. Everything felt very large and epic. You felt as though you really belonged to something. Knights 2 was not an expansion of anything epic; therefore, you only learn about the fate of only a few historical players. We have more history to explore on both sides. Exploring rebuilt or never before seen tombs on Korriban is awsome.

My only problem is - Should this have been a single player game? I'm all open to the 300 years of history to learn and explore; however, I'm not too thrilled about a multiplayer game. I haven't made up my mind. I also don't have any experience in playing a MMORPG; thus, there is something for me to gain from this experience.

True_Avery
10-22-2008, 08:57 PM
No. We don't. Even considering the possibility of Revan, the Exile, or any of their companions being alive for so long is absurd.
HK-47 is "alive" and well, and I bet T3 is as well.

I'm saying the possibility is there. Currently we do not know, do we? This is all speculation on our part. Consider we had a Sith that can devour an entire planet, a Sith that tried to kill the Force, and a Forge that can make an infinite army by feeding off a Sun and a Sith, I'd say that the Old Republic story is pretty open for absurd things happening.

Besides, I never said alive. I said "Out there in some way", which people like Exar have flexed around. They don't need to be "alive" to be apart of the story, and it seems that there are quite a few inventive ways to keep on existing in the Star Wars universe.

Darth Sion kept going by holding himself together with the Force. Nihilus/Exile are basically walking natural disasters instead of people. Exar locked his spirit away in a temple and stayed there for 4,000 years.

Not saying they -are-. I'm saying that with all that has happened and how Mary Sue these two characters are, its up for speculation as to if they are still around or not in my personal opinion.

I second that, and anyone who believes that they should have succeeded with few or no casualties on the part of them and their party members (predictable sacrifices on the part of Bastila, Carth, or other potential sacrifice-ees notwithstanding) has no imagination.
Well, you can go talk to Avelone first for making Revan always win with the TSL story. Other than that, the story and sacrifices were pretty player specific.

Which is why, personally, I think a 300 year gap leaves a nice opening for more choices and situations now that we are not confined to many of the decisions of K1 and TSL.

Yar-El
10-22-2008, 09:02 PM
Besides, I never said alive. I said "Out there in some way", which people like Exar have flexed around. They don't need to be "alive" to be apart of the story, and it seems that there are quite a few inventive ways to keep on existing in the Star Wars universe.

Which is why, personally, I think a 300 year gap leaves a nice opening for more choices and situations now that we are not confined to many of the decisions of K1 and TSL. :heart3: Everything is new again. Playing a game 10 years after Revan and Exile's departure will give us nothing new. 300 years of new history is a pretty nice way to start fresh. Those screenshots make The Old Republic feel epic again.

John Galt
10-22-2008, 09:40 PM
IMO you really can't compare the two in terms of gameplay or story progression. At least the franchise as a whole continues, and we get a delicious MMO to occupy our time until the next proper KotOR game comes.

RyuuKage
10-22-2008, 11:10 PM
No. We don't. Even considering the possibility of Revan, the Exile, or any of their companions being alive for so long is absurd.

Carbon Freeze....

also, if you read the entry on the Sith Empire, it mentions that the Sith Emperor has been keeping himself alive apparently since the time of Revan/Exile through Sith magics.

plenty of ways to live longer in SW, heck just being a Force user increases your natural life expectancy a few decades...

TKA-001
10-22-2008, 11:14 PM
Even if they can plausibly survive for 300 years, that doesn't change how lame it would be. Geeze, even Luke Freaking Skywalker died at some point.

True_Avery
10-22-2008, 11:18 PM
Even if they can plausibly survive for 300 years, that doesn't change how lame it would be. Geeze, even Luke Freaking Skywalker died at some point.
Yeah, agreed. It would still be a punch in the face if it happened, and I wouldn't put it past them to do it either.

RyuuKage
10-22-2008, 11:18 PM
Even if they can plausibly survive for 300 years, that doesn't change how lame it would be. Geeze, even Luke Freaking Skywalker died at some point.

amen

on that note, who wants to place bets as to the identity of the as-yet-unnamed Sith Emperor? XD

Tommycat
10-22-2008, 11:44 PM
The only one that we KNOW survives the events of TSL is HK. He somehow found his way to Mustafart where his "mind" was trapped in an old republic ship.

I kinda wish they would have set it only 500bby. That way it leaves thousands of years of history to discover. hehe we might even see the Millenium Falcon new(joke on how old the 1300 is).

Web Rider
10-22-2008, 11:59 PM
Then this is not KOTOR at all. This means that you've proven my point. Anyone who wanted KOTOR III will find that Lucasarts has given them something completely different.
Lets break down "Knights of the Old Republic"

The "Old Republic" refers to everything up until the formation of the Empire, the Fall of the Empire and the rise of the New Republic. Therefore, technically, Anakin and Mace were Jedi Knights of the old republic. In our specific context, the "old republic" is the republic 3000-4000 years before "current events".

So if you are a Jedi or Sith knight during the times of the old republic, then you are a "knight of the old republic". While this may not fit the feel of the game, the name itsself is techically correct in application.

Different from what we're used to? Sure it is. Unfitting? not really.

They haven't fixed the old problem before they started the new one.
True, they have not, but lets face it, a LOT of content was cut from K2, and that's like making a sequel to a movie that didn't have a conclusion to it's own events. It really doesn't work. Because of the cuts to K2, it really killed the ability of K3 to exist without massive repairs to the K2 storyline.


No, you are an individual who stands alone on this. That's a bit arrogant for you to claim your opinion is worth so much.
No, there are a few who agree with me. The majority? I don't claim that. You asked/stated that no KOTOR fan would want the Exile and Revan dead, I stated, as a KOTOR fan, that I am glad they are dead. I merely stated my opinion of their state of being because you offered up the challenge.

edit: man my writing has been shoddy of late.

redrob41
10-23-2008, 12:03 AM
I thought that the whole reason that Bioware created KotOR in the first place was because they wanted all the lightsabers, force powers, blasters & droids, etc, but without all the restrictions of holding to the movie time period. By placing thier story 4000 odd years in the past, they could start fresh. The same is true for TOR, by setting it 300 years after TSL, they have more freedom to bring in new characters and story plots.

As for a MMO, I'll have to wait and see how they do it before I judge it. I personnally prefer to play games with great stories. I like reading, and games are like an interactive novel to me. We just need to hear more info...

RyuuKage
10-23-2008, 12:12 AM
I thought that the whole reason that Bioware created KotOR in the first place was because they wanted all the lightsabers, force powers, blasters & droids, etc, but without all the restrictions of holding to the movie time period. By placing thier story 4000 odd years in the past, they could start fresh. The same is true for TOR, by setting it 300 years after TSL, they have more freedom to bring in new characters and story plots.

except that the prime story plot, the emergence of the True Sith and their empire, is nothing less than a continuance of what began in the KOTOR series (K1, K2, and the comics). The difference is that now most if not all of the characters are gone, so their story isn't complete. They just drop off the galactic record with no explanation. Sure the overarching story continues, but what about the personal stories for which it served as a background? Even the main factions are very different or completely gone.

Hopefully the comic or a novel sheds some light on what happened in the Unknown Regions, both before and after the Jedi Civil War.

redrob41
10-23-2008, 12:26 AM
The difference is that now most if not all of the characters are gone, so their story isn't complete. They just drop off the galactic record with no explanation. Sure the overarching story continues, but what about the personal stories for which it served as a background? Even the main factions are very different or completely gone.

Yeah, I know how it is to have favourite characters, only to have their story end suddenly. We always want to know what they're up to, how they're doing, like they were old friends.

In the end though, history usually only remembers the main protagonists, not the supporting characters.

RyuuKage
10-23-2008, 01:53 AM
Yeah, I know how it is to have favourite characters, only to have their story end suddenly. We always want to know what they're up to, how they're doing, like they were old friends.

In the end though, history usually only remembers the main protagonists, not the supporting characters.

that's what I'm saying though. Revan, the Exile: they ARE the main protagonists, and they've been swept off the board almost as if they were never there. I can see not talking much about, say, Mission and Zaalbar. But what about Admiral Carth Onasi? Canderous Ordo, now Mandalore the Preserver? What about Atton Rand and the other turned-Jedi companions of the Exile who had to rebuild the Jedi Order basically from scratch? Where's Bastila, one of few, if any, original Jedi who survived besides the Exile and Revan?

All I'm saying is that key historical events and figures seem to have been utterly forgotten. Hell, there's not even any mention of what Revan or the Exile even did in the Unknown Regions.

Tommycat
10-23-2008, 04:45 AM
Ya know the thing is, Revan. One man going against the True Sith in the unknown regions. Sounds like he was asking for death. The exile heading off after Revan, she should have expected the same fate. Two against an army of True Sith, worlds of True Sith. How would you expect them to survive? Why would you expect them to survive?

Really you can thank Avelone for sealing Revan's fate. Of course we might actually get more of their fate in the MMO. Not all great heroes have the greatest of fates. Need I remind people of the swirling destiny story? That Revan also had swirling destiny.... Perhaps he's clogging an injector right now. Well... not now, but perhaps his destiny was to simply delay the inevitable. Dunno, I intend to seek out his story in the MMO. Some took part in the greatest deeds of their lives at the time we played the games. I mean Bastila's greatest accomplishment might have been aiding in the destruction of the Star Forge. Revan and the Exile may have more history, but that history will be what we discover after 300 years.

Like Patton, while we may have his biography, most people only remember him for what he did in WWII. Like our founding fathers(of the US) many of them were imprisoned or executed(I think 9 imprisoned 5 executed, or something like that). Nobody cares about what happens to the heroes after they are done being heroes. Well not about the mundane tasks they did after their great accomplishment.

Katarn84
10-23-2008, 06:13 AM
TOR is the killing blow to the Kotor franchise, turning any game in an mmo is the fastest way to ruin it.

SW01
10-23-2008, 09:38 AM
TOR is the killing blow to the Kotor franchise, turning any game in an mmo is the fastest way to ruin it.

A few days ago, I would have whole-heartedly agreed. But BioWare have been clear that this will not be a standard MMO. If they manage to implement half of what they promise, it may be worthwhile.

I think in the long run it will depend on the attitudes of those playing. If people set out to ruin it for us, the MMO will, likely, be awful. If everyone plays it properly, who knows?

Darth_Yuthura
10-23-2008, 11:19 AM
Ya know the thing is, Revan. One man going against the True Sith in the unknown regions. Sounds like he was asking for death. The exile heading off after Revan, she should have expected the same fate. Two against an army of True Sith, worlds of True Sith. How would you expect them to survive? Why would you expect them to survive?

Really you can thank Avelone for sealing Revan's fate. Of course we might actually get more of their fate in the MMO. Not all great heroes have the greatest of fates. Need I remind people of the swirling destiny story? That Revan also had swirling destiny.... Perhaps he's clogging an injector right now. Well... not now, but perhaps his destiny was to simply delay the inevitable. Dunno, I intend to seek out his story in the MMO. Some took part in the greatest deeds of their lives at the time we played the games. I mean Bastila's greatest accomplishment might have been aiding in the destruction of the Star Forge. Revan and the Exile may have more history, but that history will be what we discover after 300 years.

Like Patton, while we may have his biography, most people only remember him for what he did in WWII. Like our founding fathers(of the US) many of them were imprisoned or executed(I think 9 imprisoned 5 executed, or something like that). Nobody cares about what happens to the heroes after they are done being heroes. Well not about the mundane tasks they did after their great accomplishment.

That was the whole reason the climax after TSL was so intense. We were wondering how these two were going up against impossible odds and expect to win. By giving the Republic 300 years to prepare for the True Sith, it turns impossible odds into a humiliating defeat for the Republic, Revan, and the Exile.

By skipping all the story that took place right after KOTOR, then the resolution to the climax just never happened. They killed the story by not resolving the events after TSL with a brilliant resolution. It is THAT which is why fans want KOTOR III, not just a clean slate that skips it all.

LordOfTheFish
10-23-2008, 04:40 PM
In all honesty, no, it's not a good name. But the idea behind the game itself is satisfactory to me, at least.

Burnseyy
10-23-2008, 05:56 PM
It's still in the old republic, so why shouldn't it be considered the old republic?

Anyway, I'd have loved K3 to come out, but this just let's writers like me broaden the story plot. ;) so it's not all bad for me. Personally, I think leaving a cliffhanger like it did was probably the most successful cliffhanger I've ever seen. Some are terribly done, some give too much away. It was nice and ambiguous and mysterious.

TOR won't have the same atmosphere as KOTOR, but it's still based in the old republic era, and I loved the themes and such in that era. If I can afford it, I'm definitely buying... I can live with no third KOTOR.

Yar-El
10-23-2008, 06:45 PM
TOR won't have the same atmosphere as KOTOR, but it's still based in the old republic era, and I loved the themes and such in that era. If I can afford it, I'm definitely buying... I can live with no third KOTOR. I don't know about that. Some of those screenshots look very KotORish. BioWare still needs to work on the game; thus, the game elements may move closer to the original.

Look at the clothes closely (http://www.swtor.com/media/screens/force-choke). They look similar to those in KotOR 1; however, the fashion trend was slightly modernized.

Feagildin
10-23-2008, 08:38 PM
That was the whole reason the climax after TSL was so intense. We were wondering how these two were going up against impossible odds and expect to win. By giving the Republic 300 years to prepare for the True Sith, it turns impossible odds into a humiliating defeat for the Republic, Revan, and the Exile.

By skipping all the story that took place right after KOTOR, then the resolution to the climax just never happened. They killed the story by not resolving the events after TSL with a brilliant resolution. It is THAT which is why fans want KOTOR III, not just a clean slate that skips it all.


TSL and Obsidian killed the story, imo.

And who actually states that Revan went out there to fight the sith and not join them? Hmm? And who says the Exile followed Revan to join him and not to kill him? Hmm. *nods*

LordOfTheFish
10-23-2008, 08:42 PM
TSL and Obsidian killed the story, imo.


TSL? Nah...

Prime
10-23-2008, 10:02 PM
And before anyone demands proof of something you already know... don't.I don't know that LA indicated they were making K3, thus the request for a link. My understanding was that you claimed previously that LA essentially misled people by not developing K3. I asked for a link showing that LA said they were going to make K3 in the first place. You didn't provide one. But let's move on.

If you object to what I say, then why don't you try to convince me that TOR is better 300 years after KOTOR than 5-20 after TSL. Why would KOTOR fans be glad to know that the ending goes badly?I doubt I can convince you, but for anyone else who is interested, here is my take. Get a coffee. :)

Having the game take place 300 years after KOTOR is a good idea and necessary from both a story and gameplay perspective. On the gameplay side, it allows the freedom for all players to be either a Jedi or a Sith (since let's face it that is what everyone is going to be). The problem with the time frame immediately after TSL is that there is only one Jedi left and a handful of newbies, which doesn't really leave room for 10,000+ Jedi to be running around every corner. Similarly the Sith have declined and the Triumvirate are destroyed, which also doesn't leave much room for the numbers of Sith we are going to be seeing on the servers.

That timeframe is, well, limiting. Moving the time frame ahead opens up all the options to players. Most players aren't going to know each other, and with the game <25 years after TSL that wouldn't really make any sense since all Jedi will have to be trained by the Exile and Co, and they simply couldn't have trained that many Jedi in that amount of time. Moving the game 300 years ahead allows for the option of multiple enclaves (player cities?) with many masters and apprentices. Then you can have the option of cool subgroups like the Covenant from the comics, etc. Players want gameplay options, and the timeframe immediately after TSL is limiting, if you are going to stay true to the story.

300 years later makes even more sense for the story, IMO. Everyone's personal KOTOR story is either slightly or greatly different from everyone elses'. Are Revan and the Exile male or female? Good or evil? Those simple questions have great consequences for what happens in the game. Carth and Mission may already be dead. Hell, I didn't train any of the Exile's followers to be Jedi. Other players trained all of them. For a game that will at its core a shared experience, how can we have a consistent story that lines up with each player's version? You can't. The only real option in that case is to just pick canon and move from there. But then you are deviating from 80% of what players have experienced previously. So really, what's the point of trying to complete a story that most people didn't have in the first place? Plus, new players that have never played aren't going to care anyway.

Another thing I've always argued around here is that it isn't Revan and the Exile the man (or woman) that is important, but their actions and the results of them. Those results are relevant far into the future (say, 300 years? It's a very short timespan in the SW universe, and even well within the lifespans of some species), and not just at the time. The universe players will play in will be that way in part because of what those characters did 300 years previously, but it also allows enough time to have passed so that the details that are dependent on the player can be glossed over. So you can have a game that relates well with the previous games without stepping in its toes.

Not knowing every detail about Revan and Co. in no way implies that they failed. Perhaps they were able to stop the imminent threat and prevent the its assault on the Republic at a time when it was at is most vulnerable. Yes, the Sith may have returned at a later time, but that doesn't diminish the possible victory previously. That would be like saying WW1 was a failure because WW2 happened. The point is that having a story 300 years after the games neither lessens or limits Revan's accomplishments, whatever they might be and for whatever reasons.

(Before you ask for more proof, then you provide real proof that the majority of KOTOR fans are glad to know Revan and the Exile died and failed)For starters, how do we know they failed? Secondly, majority or minority doesn't really matter. There have been several polls around here over the years asking if people want to play as Revan, the Exile or some one new, and whether they should continue the story or have something new. The opinions varied greatly. All I'm saying is that many people want many different things from the series.

It's only her/his opinion according to your opinion, Pr.Of course!

Then this is not KOTOR at all. This means that you've proven my point. Anyone who wanted KOTOR III will find that Lucasarts has given them something completely different.

They haven't fixed the old problem before they started the new one.But we don't know that. We don't have the story yet! All may be answered yet. We'll have to wait and see.

No, you are an individual who stands alone on this. That's a bit arrogant for you to claim your opinion is worth so much.No he isn't. I feel the same way. And aren't you a pot calling a kettle black here?

It is THAT which is why fans want KOTOR III, not just a clean slate that skips it all.Some fans. Not all fans. If K3 was a SRPG, I'd want a clean slate with a new character then too.

LordOfTheFish
10-23-2008, 10:07 PM
How long did it take you to write that?


Originally Posted by Prime
Some fans. Not all fans. If K3 was a SRPG, I'd want a clean slate with a new character then too.

As would I.

Pikmin
10-23-2008, 10:29 PM
I really like the idea of having K3 be an MMO(of course I cried for 1/2 days because their
would have been great potential in in seeing what Revan and the exile did.) But now thta i've read the story info available, the videos, the interviews, and the IGN exclusive's I've really come to accept this as the game I've been waiting for since I threw Kreia into the Core of Malachor V.

Darth_Yuthura
10-23-2008, 10:51 PM
TSL and Obsidian killed the story, imo.

And who actually states that Revan went out there to fight the sith and not join them? Hmm? And who says the Exile followed Revan to join him and not to kill him? Hmm. *nods*

That would be incorrect. TSL established the climax and Obsidian wasn't given the TOR project, it was Bioware. So in reality, Bioware killed the Sith Lords' climax with their abomination.

Pikmin
10-23-2008, 11:01 PM
I would have liked OE to have been given K3, but 9it does make since to have it come full circle and let the guys who made the first game make the third final one.

Jae Onasi
10-23-2008, 11:04 PM
That would be incorrect. TSL established the climax and Obsidian wasn't given the TOR project, it was Bioware. So in reality, Bioware killed the Sith Lords' climax with their abomination.

Did someone give you an advance copy of the TOR script? I'd love to know how you know without a doubt that the Sith Lords' climax has been killed by Bioware.

Darth_Yuthura
10-23-2008, 11:10 PM
Having the game take place 300 years after KOTOR is a good idea and necessary from both a story and gameplay perspective. On the gameplay side, it allows the freedom for all players to be either a Jedi or a Sith (since let's face it that is what everyone is going to be). The problem with the time frame immediately after TSL is that there is only one Jedi left and a handful of newbies, which doesn't really leave room for 10,000+ Jedi to be running around every corner. Similarly the Sith have declined and the Triumvirate are destroyed, which also doesn't leave much room for the numbers of Sith we are going to be seeing on the servers.

That timeframe is, well, limiting. Moving the time frame ahead opens up all the options to players. Most players aren't going to know each other, and with the game <25 years after TSL that wouldn't really make any sense since all Jedi will have to be trained by the Exile and Co, and they simply couldn't have trained that many Jedi in that amount of time. Moving the game 300 years ahead allows for the option of multiple enclaves (player cities?) with many masters and apprentices. Then you can have the option of cool subgroups like the Covenant from the comics, etc. Players want gameplay options, and the timeframe immediately after TSL is limiting, if you are going to stay true to the story.

-------

Not knowing every detail about Revan and Co. in no way implies that they failed. Perhaps they were able to stop the imminent threat and prevent the its assault on the Republic at a time when it was at is most vulnerable. Yes, the Sith may have returned at a later time, but that doesn't diminish the possible victory previously. That would be like saying WW1 was a failure because WW2 happened. The point is that having a story 300 years after the games neither lessens or limits Revan's accomplishments, whatever they might be and for whatever reasons.


How exactly does that make the story more dramatic if the Jedi and the Republic are allowed to have the time to rebuild? Do you know why the Battle of Thermopolea is "300 against 1,000,000" instead of history's version of "4500 against 100,000-200,000"? Which would you think is more dramatic? Most people use the 300 Spartans.

TOR kills the climax by evening the odds and making it much less dramatic by having 10,000 Jedi and a healed Republic doing the impossible than for a few Jedi and a crippled Republic struggling to survive. 300 years kills all the drama and suspense of TSL.

WWII was the result of WWI and could have been prevented if the "peace w/out victory" had been followed completely, or Germany had been obliterated at the end of WWI. Because WWI wasn't properly concluded, it caused another war that was even worse than the first.

I don't know that LA indicated they were making K3, thus the request for a link. My understanding was that you claimed previously that LA essentially misled people by not developing K3.

"The wait is over." I guess that it wasn't explicit, but a reasonable deduction could be made that it was directed at fans waiting for KOTOR III. I know that you had to be aware of that because you're a smart guy and could figure that out.

Tommycat
10-24-2008, 12:25 AM
"The wait is over." I guess that it wasn't explicit, but a reasonable deduction could be made that it was directed at fans waiting for KOTOR III. I know that you had to be aware of that because you're a smart guy and could figure that out.

Lets see, before the announcement "The Wait is Over" was released, we had enough slips that the MMO project was the project that LA and Bioware were working on. The announcement was the end of the waiting for the worst kept secret in the gaming industry to be announced:D Nowhere did LA or Bioware state explicitly that they were working on KotOR III. Bioware and LA had however stated on numerous occasions that they were not working on KotOR 3. That implies that they were not misleading you, or the fan base. Now if they had somewhere stated that they weer working on KotOR 3 you might have some semblance of a leg to stand on. If anything you misled yourself.

True_Avery
10-24-2008, 12:27 AM
I know that you had to be aware of that because you're a smart guy and could figure that out.

I feel I have been very patient with you, Darth_Yuthura.

- I gave you a kind reminder to calm down. (http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost.php?p=2542527&postcount=37)
- I gave you a warning to cease hostile actions towards others. (http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost.php?p=2542563&postcount=42)
- I Infracted you once already for Offensive behavior. (http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost.php?p=2543052&postcount=67)

You have outright ignored and pushed aside not only my warning and infraction, but the opinions of other members of this forum in favor of your own.

Please take a week to cool off. I look forward to posting with you again once you have collected your thoughts.

Prime
10-24-2008, 11:20 AM
How exactly does that make the story more dramatic if the Jedi and the Republic are allowed to have the time to rebuild? Do you know why the Battle of Thermopolea is "300 against 1,000,000" instead of history's version of "4500 against 100,000-200,000"? Which would you think is more dramatic? Most people use the 300 Spartans.Would you be surprised to learn that not once did I consider the numbers to be in any way relevant in how I viewed the ending of TSL? But then again, I think the importance of Revan to TSL is often overstated and it is more a journey of self discovery for the Exile, and much of the info about Revan can be bypassed if the player so chooses. Again, it is the actions and consequences of Revan that matter, not so much the man.

TOR kills the climax by evening the odds and making it much less dramatic by having 10,000 Jedi and a healed Republic doing the impossible than for a few Jedi and a crippled Republic struggling to survive. 300 years kills all the drama and suspense of TSL. I think that is a huge overstatement. Are you saying that the drama and suspense as a result of the culmination of journey of the Exile and the confrontation with the Sith Lords are all of a sudden destroyed because some unknown arbitrary numbers were changed?

"The wait is over." I guess that it wasn't explicit, but a reasonable deduction could be made that it was directed at fans waiting for KOTOR III. I know that you had to be aware of that because you're a smart guy and could figure that out.The statement was true regardless how how you look at it, really. If you were waiting for confirmation of the KOTOR MMO rumors, you got that. If you were waiting for the announcement regarding the future of the KOTOR franchise, you got that.

Saying you were misled because you didn't get specifically what you wanted is not their fault. I'd like a SRPG for K3 too, but in no way did LA ever say they were ever going to do that, where as everything that was leaked for the past year pointed to an MMO. Acting surprised when it actually happens just seems a bit silly.

CrisG
10-24-2008, 12:54 PM
SW01 posted very well i think imho

A few days ago, I would have whole-heartedly agreed. But BioWare have been clear that this will not be a standard MMO. If they manage to implement half of what they promise, it may be worthwhile.

I think in the long run it will depend on the attitudes of those playing. If people set out to ruin it for us, the MMO will, likely, be awful. If everyone plays it properly, who knows?

Let's be cool and wait and see, there is a HUGE effort going on here by Biowar, they have committed incredible resources and all their integrity and mojo to make this an awesome sequel and continuation of a much beloved segment of the SW universe....so lets give them a chance to do their thing and share with us as they are, they are being very open and candid and clearly both BioW and LucasA are really working hard to make a masterpiece. It takes time. :) Let's see what they do.

igyman
10-24-2008, 05:15 PM
I don't think TOR will be nearly as good as the original KoTOR games were and more importantly, I don't think it's a conclusion to the series as this game will probably have very little to do, story-wise, with the KoTOR games. We'll just wait and see, I guess. :(

HIGH ON PIE 14
10-24-2008, 10:45 PM
I don't think TOR will be nearly as good as the original KoTOR games were and more importantly, I don't think it's a conclusion to the series as this game will probably have very little to do, story-wise, with the KoTOR games. We'll just wait and see, I guess. :(

My thoughts exactly. Under normal circumstances I would be ecstatic that this game was being made. But I wish they had not said "The wait is over" The wait for what? A totally random game?

Surely they couldn't mean the KOTOR series because then it would have been called Knights of the Old Republic III. Apparently this is their way of giving us a K3. I am glad they made this, but why not just make a continuation to the KOTOR series? Obviously that is what they were aiming for...but 300 years? Not much of a continuation...the KOTOR centered around Revan, Exile, and had tradmark charaters like T3 and HK. This game looks like it will have none of that. It does not have the stuff that defines KOTOR and makes it stand out from other SW stuff.

IMO, I don't think they can fairly call it a continuation, unless they finish the ending of K2. What about Revan etc? I don't think it will be nearly as good either. I'll have to see more before I decide whether I want it or not. I appreciate the time and resources Bioware has put into this, but lets face it - when we thought of a continuation of KOTOR we thought "oh, Revan, Exile and the true sith" not "oh, hundreds of years later with totally new people and storyline."

Oh, well. I guess I just don't understand why they just would not make a continuation of te series. There are mixed feelings about this game, and a real KOTOR 3 would probably have made more money. *sigh* I just don't get it...why are they so adament about not making a true K3?:confused:

~HOP

Q
10-24-2008, 11:08 PM
^^^
This is just a guess, but maybe because of all of the bad press surrounding KotOR2's rushed and incomplete nature?

Tommycat
10-24-2008, 11:28 PM
HOP the problem is that TSL kinda killed Revan's story. They booted him off to "Unknown Space" to get rid of him without officially killing him(because the revan worshippers would whine). The period after the Exile had left, virtually no jedi are left. TSL kinda killed the Knights part of it. So until more jedi are around it would be hard to justify KotOR3.

Hoad
10-25-2008, 06:30 AM
I personally am not bothered at all with this game and although I'm disappointed about the lack of K3 I'm hardly surprised that LA have come up with yet another money spinner rather than what would probably have concluded the KOTOR series, which seems to be a more logical thing to do rather than start yet another storyline in yet another era. Ah well...

stoffe
10-25-2008, 09:10 AM
I personally am not bothered at all with this game and although I'm disappointed about the lack of K3 I'm hardly surprised that LA have come up with yet another money spinner rather than what would probably have concluded the KOTOR series, which seems to be a more logical thing to do rather than start yet another storyline in yet another era. Ah well...

I think it would be too hard to make sequels that make sense to a series like KOTOR, due to the multiple, drastically different endings in both Knights of the Old Republic and The Sith Lords. No matter which direction you go in a sequel you're bound to piss someone off, making them feel like nothing their characters did in the past two games matter.

Sure, with both Dei Ex Machina from the past two games shipped off into the unknown never to be heard from again (in the light ending at least) it could focus on (yet) another new character with a separate story with no solid connection to the previous two, but then it wouldn't be much of a sequel. :)

LordOfTheFish
10-25-2008, 02:21 PM
I personally am not bothered at all with this game and although I'm disappointed about the lack of K3 I'm hardly surprised that LA have come up with yet another money spinner rather than what would probably have concluded the KOTOR series, which seems to be a more logical thing to do rather than start yet another storyline in yet another era. Ah well...

I agree with that to a certain extent. Maybe, because TSL was finished several years ago, LA considered a, KOTOR 3, a step backwards rather than forwards. I really don't know why they went with TOR, only that they (Lucas Arts, Bio ware) seem to be satisfied with there decision. It seems to please most people, that is. I'm happy with it...

Originally Posted by stoffe
I think it would be too hard to make sequels that make sense to a series like KOTOR, due to the multiple, drastically different endings in both Knights of the Old Republic and The Sith Lords. No matter which direction you go in a sequel you're bound to piss someone off, making them feel like nothing their characters did in the past two games matter.


Happens to me all the time....

I personally think that a sequel should be better than it's prequel. Topping Kotor is not the easiest of things to do.

Lance Monance
10-26-2008, 05:24 PM
I think it's a good idea that TOR takes placed 300 years after TSL. That way, they don't have to screw up the story if they don't want to. (Unlike Warcraft 3 -> World of Warcraft). Hopefully, Revan's and the Exile's fate remains a mystery.

I'm curious how Bioware is going to attempt to tell a story in a MMO. I'm certain that it won't be as good as any good RPG in that regard, still,...

LordOfTheFish
10-26-2008, 09:19 PM
I think it's a good idea that TOR takes placed 300 years after TSL. That way, they don't have to screw up the story if they don't want to.

I couldn't agree more. Not to mention that leaves enough time to possibly make a KotOR 3 SPRPG.

SpartanPride
10-26-2008, 10:47 PM
If they made a third KOTOR III, it would suck because you already would know how it was going to end. No doubt they will specify what happened in TOR.

LordOfTheFish
10-27-2008, 03:04 PM
That would make the game have to last for 300 years at the minimum. They don't have to tell what happened in that 300 years, just leave it a mystery.

Hallucination
10-27-2008, 07:17 PM
If they made a third KOTOR III, it would suck because you already would know how it was going to end.
I know, the original two KotORs sucked because I knew the Emperor was going to be killed in RotJ.

Ctrl Alt Del
10-27-2008, 07:37 PM
I know, the original two KotORs sucked because I knew the Emperor was going to be killed in RotJ.

Ironic QFE.

Lord Spitfire
10-28-2008, 05:11 AM
If you don't believe me, ask the people that are still waiting for Warcraft IV.

lol, that was me for a very long time, until I finally gave up along the lines of two years ago. :p

I'm a bit undecided on this one. At first, I was dissapointed at no KotOR3. But then I started to think. Even though the storyline of TSL was fantastic, I didn't really like the situation which it left off; Exile and Revan off to fight sith Empire, Exile's companions off to rebuild Jedi, Republic recovering from Jedi civil war.

I like how I can play this for as long as I want, and as the story can't be as good as KotOR 3 would have been, it has more depth and opportunity to it.

SpartanPride
10-28-2008, 06:09 PM
That would make the game have to last for 300 years at the minimum. They don't have to tell what happened in that 300 years, just leave it a mystery.

That could be true. The Sith could be one everyone's good side because for the last 300 years they made a cover-up story about the Jedi.

I know, the original two KotORs sucked because I knew the Emperor was going to be killed in RotJ.

No, the KOTOR's didn't suck, but it sure made the first three episode a lot less exciting >.>

DarthSeverus
10-29-2008, 02:57 PM
I have to admit, while some aspects of the premise behind TOR sound interesting and I hope it does well, I also feel like others here that this is not a true sequel or continuation of the KOTOR series at all, it's rather a different series set roughly in the same time period (similar to the Darth Bane series of books). I would have no problem with it if it would involve K3 coming out as well, but since this is it, then I have to admit I'm pretty disappointed at the moment.

For me, this would be like the movie saga ending with ESB (which the ending of TSL always felt to me to be similar to) and shooting straight into the Legacy era of SW, just informing us somewhere in Cade Skywalker's adventures that Vader turned back to the light due to his son, killed Sidious and the Rebellion won. And I think most would feel that would have sucked, rather then seeing the movie trilogy completed. And I feel the same way over this, though some of the potential of TOR sounds interesting with KOTOR they had the makings of a story that was at least just as good as the original movie saga, and they've effectively killed it and allot of the great characters in it mid-way, without us being able to follow that story to it's conclusion.

Anyhow, I hope this MMO does achieve what it sets out to do (as it is effectively carrying the KOTOR flag), but I'll always be bitterly disappointed that they never finished the KOTOR trilogy.

Tommycat
10-29-2008, 10:10 PM
Who was the antagonist in KotOR? What happened to him?
Who was the antagonist in TSL? What happened to them?

Now answer Who the antagonist in ANH and ESB were and what happened to them at the end of those films.

That is how the analogy to ESB is flawed. See in both the previous games the antagonist in the stories was killed by the end of the game. In the movies, the antagonist was killed in the last movie(by a prior antagonist). The protagonist in the first game never made it past a cameo in the second. So to be totally fair, TSL wasn't a continuation of KotOR. TSL was more like jumping from ANH to Legacy era.

Prime
10-30-2008, 01:29 PM
The protagonist in the first game never made it past a cameo in the second. So to be totally fair, TSL wasn't a continuation of KotOR. TSL was more like jumping from ANH to Legacy era.And was better for it, IMO.

DarthSeverus
10-30-2008, 02:14 PM
That's not entirely true, at the back of both KOTOR and TSL is references to a greater threat in the Unknown Regions, in K1 we were told the Council suspected something was behind the Mandalorian Wars and consumed Revan and Malak, and Canderous tells you that the Sith were the ones who came to the Mandalorians with the offer to fight the greatest war of their era initiating the Mandalorian Wars. In TSL this thread is picked up and throughout that game we are told Revan went off to fight a greater threat then the current Sith that you are facing, which Keira eventually revealed this to be the 'true Sith' Empire that was waiting in the Unknown Regions and had been manipulating allot of the events and enemies encountered in the first two games (much like the Emperor is only referenced in ANH in which the big threat was the Death Star which was destroyed in that movie, and then only shown in a hologram in ESB, being only fully revealed in ROTJ), with the expectation that the true enemy hinted and further revealed in the first to games would be revealed fully in K3 in the same way.

So I would say there is a continuing enemy throughout the KOTOR series (which will survive to TOR apparently), so I still view it as a trilogy cut short by this jump to TOR

Darth_Yuthura
10-31-2008, 10:32 PM
The wise course of action would be to ignore this thread altogether, but so long as I ignore others... so I won't directly quote or make reference to anyone from now on.

My greatest reason for disliking this MMO is because it is NOT the expected conclusion that was implied at the end of TSL. It is placed 300 years into the future... long after all everything established in the first two are left in limbo indefinitely. 300 years is not a significant enough time that they could leave the possibility open for a true KOTOR III.

Before this was introduced, the cliffhanger of TSL was at least open to the imagination. Now even the imagination has been killed off because this MUST explain where Revan and the Exile left off. The thing that I despise is that Lucasarts used only enough of KOTOR content to call this the conclusion if it succeeds. If it fails, they could say it's completely independent of the original two and it would not ruin that franchise any more than the ending to TSL being incomplete.

This is all speculation, but no sources, no facts, and anyone could chose not to believe any of this.

HK-42
11-01-2008, 02:16 PM
TOR and KOTOR III are NOT the same, but TOR as it is known explicitly declares that Revan and the Exile leave and never return. Then 350 years later, the enemies they went out to fight invade and conquer the Republic. This means that the climactic end to KOTOR is that the heros died or were converted.

But like in KOTOR you can imagine yourself what happened with Revan and the Exile...also it could be the emperor they did say he prolonged his life

GwannaSauna
11-02-2008, 04:53 PM
ToR sounds OK, but what I really want is KotOR III or, better yet, KotOR IV: The Galactic Civil War video game! I mean, seriously, we can call the Galactic Civil War old, right? I mean, it's beyond 100+ ABY now. And between that huge gap is lot of stuff

Soulouri
11-03-2008, 05:08 AM
I'm genuinely diasppointed that this is set 300 years after Revan, any kind of hopes I had for an amazing finish in KOTOR 3 are now destroyed and i'll have to make do with just reading about what happened rather than experiencing it :(

Darth_Yuthura
11-03-2008, 09:11 AM
I'm glad to see that I'm not alone on this issue. I was very saddened not to see KOTOR III but I was frustrated that Lucasarts carved in stone that the spectacular ending I was anticipating would never be. I could understand that they would change the game from RPG because an MMO would be more profitable, but to set the game 300 years in the future?

I know I've already made my opinion known, but there was a 4000 year window that they could have used and to choose 300 years was just too close to KOTOR era for me. If they had chosen... 1000 years later, then I would have been satisfied to think that KOTOR ended positively, even if they didn't make the third game. Any timeframe greater than 15 years, but less than 500 years is too close to the KOTOR era.

I say again that the ONLY way I would be interested in the MMO is if they change the setting from 300 years to <15. That's all there is to it for me.

Prime
11-03-2008, 10:10 AM
I say again that the ONLY way I would be interested in the MMO is if they change the setting from 300 years to <15. That's all there is to it for me.But with no/handful Jedi running around in that timeframe, how would that work for a MMO?

Sabretooth
11-03-2008, 11:42 AM
I think I am probably just as excited for SWToR as I would be for a KotOR 3.
What he said.

SW01
11-03-2008, 12:04 PM
But with no/handful Jedi running around in that timeframe, how would that work for a MMO?

After thinking about it, it does seem that the timeframe immediately following TSL is spent. As Prime says, few Jedi about except the Exile's followers, even fewer Sith about (all-but destruction of Korriban's Academy infrastructure; destruction of Trayus Academy), and even the armies are strained.

I for one think that the later timeframe would in this case be necessary for a decent story involving all the usual Star Wars sects. Suddenly having a few thousand Jedi only a few years after a time with only a small handful left would cheapen TSL, imo.

Darth_Yuthura
11-03-2008, 02:33 PM
How many Jedi were there at the end of ROTJ? I really don't believe numbers have much to do with why they chose 300 years after TSL.

Personally, I would have been much more for the Jedi facing nearly impossible odds than with a leveled playing field. When it is naturally expected that the Jedi would win 300 years down the road, then it seems a bit ironic that they would be beaten out by the True Sith when they were at full strength.

This shows that even after almost becoming extinct, the Jedi still didn't learn anything from the Mandalorian and Sith Wars. That completely demeans everything in the KOTOR story if they recover from those wars only to be crippled again by the same enemy.

Weiser_Cain
11-03-2008, 03:18 PM
300 years is enough time to have a new set of heroes, villains, organizations and so on.

Darth_Yuthura
11-03-2008, 03:27 PM
300 years is enough time to have a new set of heroes, villains, organizations and so on.

Same villains, same conflict as before.

I didn't want a new era, but if that's what Lucasarts intended, why not 1000 years later? That way, they can come up with a new series completely. This MMO is meant to be the ending of KOTOR because it involves the same enemy as the KOTOR series.

EnderWiggin
11-03-2008, 04:02 PM
Same villains, same conflict as before.

I didn't want a new era, but if that's what Lucasarts intended, why not 1000 years later? That way, they can come up with a new series completely. This MMO is meant to be the ending of KOTOR because it involves the same enemy as the KOTOR series.

Not necessarily! It is quite possible that Revan and the Exile gave their lives in order to stop the True Sith, and the True Sith were stopped. But, just like how Revan spontaneously became a sith lord, perhaps another Master of the Dark Side arose out in the Outer Rim 300 years later due to some ancient sith teachings.

There's nothing to indicate that Revan was killed and that the True Sith just waited around for 300 years before attacking the Republic. In fact, that makes even less sense to me than what I proposed off the top of my head as an alternative.

_EW_

Darth_Yuthura
11-03-2008, 05:27 PM
Right... nothing is certain. Maybe Bioware has something in store that becomes much greater than anything I would have imagined. This could indeed be the beginning of the best chapter of the KOTOR era.

However, based on what I've seen of the MMO and plot, I see nothing more but a cheap attempt to peal to KOTOR fans with something that vaguely touches upon such a masterpiece as KOTOR (and the second if it had been completed properly) Based on what little info has been released, I'm convinced that there is no conclusion that I will look forward to unless the game takes place... I won't say it again.

Soulouri
11-04-2008, 03:47 AM
To be honest if there is a good story line and 'main quest' line that i can follow through then I will be happy.

I don't really mind the MMO aspect of it, but I feel that having 1,000s of other 'heroes' running around in a game like KOTOR takes away a huge part of the appeal for me. But, as I have been saying for a while now, I wont judge the game properly until I play it, this is all just speculation :p

Darth_Yuthura
11-05-2008, 12:09 AM
Can't judge the game until you've played it?

Does that mean that in order to judge the game, one must buy it and pay an additional fee to go online before even knowing whether or not it's worth buying?

My advice... not like anyone asked it... don't buy it unless you know you like it. I do not want anyone buying a lemon because they waste their hard-earned cash and Lucasarts ends up on top whether they make a lemon or a masterpiece. If they indeed make a lemon, DO NOT let them think they can put 'Star Wars' or 'Kotor' on any product and expect profit. Otherwise, they'll keep making lemons and everyone else will continue to be disappointed.

Web Rider
11-05-2008, 12:14 AM
I agree, and until I see some proof that this game is a superior product than previous Star Wars titles, I do not plan on buying it. And I do hope that there is some kind of open beta that will be free for a while or something to allow us to test it out.

Q
11-05-2008, 02:57 AM
Same here, because I don't honestly know whether I'll like it or not. If I do it will be my first MMO, because the overall concept of an MMO has never really appealed to me before now.

A "Yoda" option is needed in the poll, BTW.

Soulouri
11-05-2008, 03:37 AM
The thing is i'm an ex-Star Wars Galaxies player so I've been waiting for a Star Wars MMO for a very long time.

I am also a huge KOTOR fan so... I am completely on the fence about the game because I would of preferred KOTOR 3, but at the same time a KOTOR MMO sounds pretty awesome to me.

As I said I will wait to play it until I judge it though, simple fact is Bioware could sneeze in a box, throw a star wars label on the front and I'd buy it.

I know... im a sucker :/

Weiser_Cain
11-05-2008, 05:03 AM
I have some faith in bioware based on games I've bought though it's the team and they are owned by EA now so it's hard to tell until later in development. Also I worry about art direction.

Darth_Yuthura
11-05-2008, 09:46 PM
I've never used an MMO. I would have been open to a KOTOR III MMO simply for the sake that it's a continuation of one of my favorite pieces of the Star Wars universe. I think that is lucasarts was aiming to peal to KOTOR fans, they would have at least provided a single-player option as well as online gameplay.

KOTOR was built upon being single-player, but it would make sense to try something to broaden the horizon. What better way is there than to make a masterpiece that expands on something that has proven its success?

They shouldn't just create something that is ONLY multiple player, but something that can also be multiplayer. That way, it could be adaptable to both single and multi-player game lovers. Is it really that difficult to use NPC's in place of people online?

TKA-001
11-05-2008, 10:24 PM
because it involves the same enemy as the KOTOR series.
If by "the same enemy" you mean the Sith, then you could apply that to every single [post-5,000 BBY] era of the entire Star Wars timeline. Either way, it still doesn't make sense because there's been numerous Sith Orders and the True Sith never appeared in either KOTOR games, anyway. On top of that, they were never even confirmed to exist until now.

Weiser_Cain
11-06-2008, 01:07 AM
I know it isn't feasible but I still wanted to see more of the Rakata. It's kind of a shame they set this in the past instead of the future since they can't do anything too radical without going completely off cannon.

Darth_Yuthura
11-06-2008, 09:19 AM
The True Sith were there from the very beginning of the Mandalorian Wars. They conducted everything so that the Jedi would be destroyed... according to Revan via HK-47. The Council believed the true threat... the True Sith... had never revealed themselves because they were afraid to face the Jedi directly. This indicates that the True Sith may not have been so great a power as some have made them out to be... I won't say names.

If the True Sith couldn't directly face the Jedi even after the Civil War, then it's not so outrageous to have the story start shortly after TSL. If there were ever a time that they would have attacked the Republic or Jedi, it was then. They would not have just decided to give them time to recover so that they could have a fair fight. The idea that they would wait 300 years after TSL is ridiculous.

The True Sith are the enemy behind everything in KOTOR and always have been. Naturally, they should be the enemy that is defeated at the end of the saga.

Weiser_Cain
11-06-2008, 11:54 AM
Or maybe the true Sith lacked numbers, and or are really smart, or are long lived and time just sorta slipped by. I could swear the true Sith interbred with those dark jedi...

Jeff
11-06-2008, 01:19 PM
Or maybe the true Sith lacked numbers, and or are really smart, or are long lived and time just sorta slipped by. I could swear the true Sith interbred with those dark jedi...Yep, this is how the Sith became what they are - native Sith of Korriban interbred with Dark Jedi. You can read about them in our game info (http://www.starwarsmmo.net/gameinfo/sith-empire/) section.

Tommycat
11-07-2008, 07:37 AM
Is it really that difficult to use NPC's in place of people online?
No, it's not difficult. However it is the content hosting that gets harder and harder.

You know I see a lot of judging going on. They haven't even shown gameplay footage. Do you know what races we can play as? What the missions will be like. What will the stories be like? How can people judge a game that they haven't seen at all? This may be the greatest game ever made. But people are judging it as if it's the worst. Granted it has just as much potential to be the worst. But as it sits now, nobody here has played it. Everything might well change once we get a few registered members here playing the game. There might also be a free trial a few years out(maybe even a year after release). Generally when you get an online game, you also get a month of subscription. So if you get the game you will be able to play.

I'm keeping an open mind about it. With luck it'll be a very good game. I intend as of now to be one of the first people playing. Most of my guild in Galaxies intend to play there as well. We'll see how I feel as more info comes out.

Sharen Thrawn
11-07-2008, 10:38 PM
But with no/handful Jedi running around in that timeframe, how would that work for a MMO?

And that is my problem with the MMO's storyline. To me it screams "We weren't crafting a storyline. We were compiling an MMO and then tried to tailor some storyline to it". Seriously. It's like they thought that there just have to be tons of Jedi in the MMO or it won't be E_P-I_C. Of course Jedi need a worthy enemy. Yay! Let's throw thousands of Sith there! But where they came from? Hmmm..... Let's bring back the Naga Sadow Sith Empire. They are über evil = EPIC. Ohh and let's call them the Trrrrrrrue Sith. Screw Obsidian's plans to make the True Sith some different faction. Ohh, and let's rip The Original Trilogy once again by throwing some Emperor there, as if Kotor 1 wasn't enough of The Original Trilogy remake. Doesn't matter. Emperor sounds evil and EPIC. EPIC Star Wars experience. But what we're gonna do with Revan? Oh, well, he never returned from the Unknown Regions. Case closed. HAHAHA!

Yes, I'm taking it too far. But the plot for the MMO sounds really cheap and just too generic IMO. Everyone could came up with sth like this. "Hey! LucasArts here! Make me a Star Wars MMO!" - "Sure! It's gonna be a battle between The Republic and The Sith! Clever ha?". BTW BioWare already kinda used this "Cold War" (between the Republic and the Sith Empire) theme in Kotor 1 (Maanam providing kolto for both factions, recruits applying into the Jedi Academy on Dantooine or Sith Academy on Korriban etc).

Weiser_Cain
11-08-2008, 01:15 AM
Alternately there had to be tons of jedi to justify the players being majority jedi/sith,
Also the star wars story was circular from the start, Luke would fall like his father before blah, blah blah.
Are you guys sure you're star wars fans?

TKA-001
11-08-2008, 11:19 AM
Screw Obsidian's plans to make the True Sith some different faction.
What plans?

let's rip The Original Trilogy once again by throwing some Emperor there, as if Kotor 1 wasn't enough of The Original Trilogy remake.
So you're saying that it's a ripoff of the OT just because there's a guy whose title is "Emperor"? That's preposterous.

News-flash: the word "emperor" has existed for thousands of years, so by your logic, the fact that Palpatine's title was "Emperor" is unoriginal, too.

BioWare already kinda used this "Cold War" (between the Republic and the Sith Empire) theme in Kotor 1 (Maanam providing kolto for both factions, recruits applying into the Jedi Academy on Dantooine or Sith Academy on Korriban etc).
Yeah, they did use it already, on one planet out of millions in the galaxy.

Are you guys sure you're star wars fans?
Logic: If you don't like everything in Star Wars, you cannot be a fan. Read one of the Karen Traviss books, or the Dark Empire series, or the LOTF series, and you may change your mind.

Weiser_Cain
11-08-2008, 05:19 PM
Logic: if you've only just noticed star wars is full of iterations you may not be a fan or you weren't paying attention.
Addendum: Screw Obsidian.

Sharen Thrawn
11-08-2008, 10:25 PM
What plans?
Their plans for Kotor3 plot.


So you're saying that it's a ripoff of the OT just because there's a guy whose title is "Emperor"? That's preposterous.

News-flash: the word "emperor" has existed for thousands of years, so by your logic, the fact that Palpatine's title was "Emperor" is unoriginal, too.
The problem is that is not some random guy/ruler of a random planet using the title. He's a Sith Lord, fighting with The Republic and ruling a galactic Empire. And of course, he's an über evil main villian. Sounds familiar? The intentions behind naming this Sith lord an Emperor are clear IMO.

Yeah, they did use it already, on one planet out of millions in the galaxy.
Now they're gonna copy and paste this concept onto every planet in the MMO. Epic!

teodesetkata
11-10-2008, 02:13 PM
In my opinion, I think that the best possible MMO that can be made out of Star Wars would be a non-canon to the storyline one. Imagine just the universe, and you would be some kind of freelancer in it, and have a job, like bounty hunter, entertainer, diplomat, Czerka Corporation employee and such, and not being necessarily Jedi or Sith, part of the Republic or the Sith Empire, just, as Jango Fett says in the movies, "I'm just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe.", or something like that. The idea of just Sith and Jedi fighting in a MMO sounds pretty dumb and uninteresting to me - I hope there'll be professions and such, and freelance exploring and doing interesting story-driven quests. I hope it'll be like that, not just simple killing.

But, the possibility of joining a Jedi/Sith academy and learning the ways of the Force shouldn't be left out, either. But being Jedi/Sith shouldn't have an effect on the jobs you do to make your living. As far as I could tell by reading the description of the SW MMO, it states that "choose to be a Jedi or Sith". I don't think there'll be much variety in it. :(

And also, the events in the galaxy that would be determined by other players, should have an effect on the galaxy itself. Just like in KotOR, poisoning the kolto -> the price for the medpacks raises. And, during the Jedi/Sith war, there would be different things to do in a specific planet determined if it is either controlled by the Sith or the Jedi. Important thing that it shouldn't be left out is the fact that there should be different organisations than the Sith and the Jedi - like the Exchange and Pirate organisations, such as the Hutts.

adamqd
11-10-2008, 06:08 PM
What is it with people's need to be just another brick in the wall?? I play Games to be the Hero, kick ass across the Galaxy... I can be a non-canon Bar man or a Clothes maker in Real Life lol, less knittin more Kickin!!

GwannaSauna
11-11-2008, 01:18 AM
Change of thought: KotOR V: Getting Somewhere... (32 BBY-0 BBY) would be great. It would be like this: KotOR-ish (improved :)) with different times in the Prequel Trilogy! Prologue... (32 BBY), Invasion of Naboo + Epic duel w/ Darth Maul (32 BBY) Giant gap (32 BBY-22 BBY), Clone Wars beginning (22 BBY), Getting Somewhere... (19 BBY), Great Jedi Purge (19 BBY), Vader's Apprentice (??? BBY-2 BBY), Battle of Yavin (0 BBY) and you get to choose which one you want to choose! You can save the game at any part at any time and switch to a new one (for example: If you got bored of the Invasion of Naboo sequence, you could save there and (from the main menu) switch over to another part!) Good idea? :lol:


Sorry, I'll get back on topic...

teodesetkata
11-11-2008, 01:20 AM
LOL, I never said that it shouldn't be left out. Of course, battling is an important factor in the game, but I hope that there'll be professions. Bounty Hunting, for example, would be very interesting, assassinating targets without being seen.

Yatsookey
11-11-2008, 07:47 AM
:( so sad i wanted to see what happened to revan
hmmm and prime my guess is there will be a section in the game with either history and lore or maybe they will be mentioned by the umm trainers if there will be any

Darth_Yuthura
11-14-2008, 01:52 AM
Change of thought: KotOR V: Getting Somewhere... (32 BBY-0 BBY) would be great. It would be like this: KotOR-ish (improved :)) with different times in the Prequel Trilogy! Prologue... (32 BBY), Invasion of Naboo + Epic duel w/ Darth Maul (32 BBY) Giant gap (32 BBY-22 BBY), Clone Wars beginning (22 BBY), Getting Somewhere... (19 BBY), Great Jedi Purge (19 BBY), Vader's Apprentice (??? BBY-2 BBY), Battle of Yavin (0 BBY) and you get to choose which one you want to choose! You can save the game at any part at any time and switch to a new one (for example: If you got bored of the Invasion of Naboo sequence, you could save there and (from the main menu) switch over to another part!) Good idea? :lol:


Sorry, I'll get back on topic...

That's not entirely accurate. TFU created an entirely new story with a new character, but just as easily done something completely different. The 300 year gap had already carved certain things in stone. I wanted to see Revan and the Exile end their stories in triumph, but now they never return. There is little room for a KOTOR III that doesn't involve changing the story, or it would would detract from all the KOTOR storylines.

Tommycat
11-14-2008, 07:53 AM
That's not entirely accurate. TFU created an entirely new story with a new character, but just as easily done something completely different. The 300 year gap had already carved certain things in stone. I wanted to see Revan and the Exile end their stories in triumph, but now they never return. There is little room for a KOTOR III that doesn't involve changing the story, or it would would detract from all the KOTOR storylines.

Their fate was sealed long before the MMO. When Obsidian started making gods of them. What did you expect to happen. Two Jedi go into True Sith territory. I don't care how much of a tough guy you are, you go into Bloods territory with Crips colors, and expect to come out victorious?

Darth_Yuthura
11-14-2008, 09:13 AM
That's what the cliffhanger was all about. I was expecting something so clever or so miraculous, but instead got something that was a cheap means to an end. They didn't even have an ending like the last stand of the 1300 Spartans and Thespians at Thermopolea. The disappointment didn't come from Obsidian, but from whoever decided to kill the cliffhanger because they couldn't come up with a dramatic ending.

Astor
11-14-2008, 10:26 AM
That's what the cliffhanger was all about. I was expecting something so clever or so miraculous, but instead got something that was a cheap means to an end.

I'm disappointed too, but it seems you've let your expectations get the better of you - and there was never any promise of a KOTOR III, aside from the rumor mongering that circulated about once every six months.

They didn't even have an ending like the last stand of the 1300 Spartans and Thespians at Thermopolea.

That would've sucked pretty badly - and we'd still be hearing the screams for blood from the Revan fanboys even if that were the case.

Also, it would have been reinforcing the godliness that Obsidian put into TSL - and that's something I, for one, can do without.

The disappointment didn't come from Obsidian, but from whoever decided to kill the cliffhanger because they couldn't come up with a dramatic ending.

I've been thinking about this for a while, and there's not really a cliff-hanger at all when you look at it. Each of the two KOTOR games is pretty much self-contained. TSL wasn't that much of a sequel as it was a completely separate game, with Revan occasionally mentioned to create some semblance of a connection.

Sharen Thrawn
11-14-2008, 11:29 AM
I'm disappointed too, but it seems you've let your expectations get the better of you - and there was never any promise of a KOTOR III, aside from the rumor mongering that circulated about once every six months.
Not really. Pre-production of K3 began already in the middle of 2004, but the team responsible for it at Lucas Arts was fired only a couple months later. We heard rumors about it back in the days and not so long time ago actual concept arts from the cancelled K3 project leaked.

I've been thinking about this for a while, and there's not really a cliff-hanger at all when you look at it. Each of the two KOTOR games is pretty much self-contained. TSL wasn't that much of a sequel as it was a completely separate game, with Revan occasionally mentioned to create some semblance of a connection.
Hmmm... Despite having a different character, K2 was basically all about Revan, the Mandalorian Wars and other topics introduced in the first game. TSL completly changed/expanded the player's view of Revan and the events in K1.

Astor
11-14-2008, 11:38 AM
Hmmm... Despite having a different character, K2 was basically all about Revan, the Mandalorian Wars and other topics introduced in the first game. TSL completly changed/expanded the player's view of Revan and the events in K1.

It was about defeating the Sith Triumvirate, while listening to every NPCs opinion on how Revan was a god. It's almost like they added all the Revan refences just to bulk up the plot.

Tommycat
11-14-2008, 03:54 PM
Obsidian's K2 killed Revan by making him into a god. Then they conveniently sent him to do battle in unwinnable odds. If he made it out, it would have been a cheat. If he died in the game it is no different than hearing great stories of heroism. The Spartans had tactics and terrain to their advantage. Revan and the Exile were outsiders attempting to overthrow a race. What was he going to do, plop down on the Sith home world and hack his way through the whole place? Sorry, but it's probably best to leave us to our imaginations as to how he did it.

Besides, it gives people a chance to make him more of a legend than the true Revan. Make him "eight feet tall, kills Sith by the hundreds. And if he were here he would defeat the Sith with fireballs from his eyes and lightning from his .... um... hands... yeah... hands..."

Darth_Yuthura
11-14-2008, 07:05 PM
The first game was self contained... that can't really be disputed. The second was anything but self-contained. The climax came at the end of the game and... what was the resolution? Some old witch telling the Exile only some of what was going to happen? That she and Revan were going to have to fight the True Sith? That's an ending?

And just because Revan and the Exile would defeat the Sith... for some reason, I never even pictured in my head that they were going to use brute strength to slay them all until someone described it that way. I imagined something brilliant that would have allowed a single person to alter the course of history. That was the whole buildup that came about Revan from HK-47. It's not so far-fetched that cunning and deception can beat brute strength.

If you don't believe me, then believe history. Only a few individuals were responsible for 9/11 and look at the havoc those few had on history. THEY didn't cause anything that happened after the attack, it was a populace.

Weiser_Cain
11-14-2008, 08:17 PM
I believe I wish you hadn't said that.

Tommycat
11-14-2008, 08:35 PM
The first game was self contained... that can't really be disputed. The second was anything but self-contained. The climax came at the end of the game and... what was the resolution? Some old witch telling the Exile only some of what was going to happen? That she and Revan were going to have to fight the True Sith? That's an ending?
That is the failing of TSL. It was not a complete game. Heck even Lucas knew better than to make his movies with the expectation of a sequel. Yes they had a planned story, but each movie could stand on its own without the following movie.

And just because Revan and the Exile would defeat the Sith... for some reason, I never even pictured in my head that they were going to use brute strength to slay them all until someone described it that way. I imagined something brilliant that would have allowed a single person to alter the course of history. That was the whole buildup that came about Revan from HK-47. It's not so far-fetched that cunning and deception can beat brute strength.
Um... I'll start with the basic of that story is probably best left as a bit of history. Not as a whole game to explain it. Unless you start out as the godly Revan as described in TSL, it won't be your player doing it. Instead you'll get exposition from other sources... may as well be exposition by NPC's in the MMO 300 years later.

If you don't believe me, then believe history. Only a few individuals were responsible for 9/11 and look at the havoc those few had on history. THEY didn't cause anything that happened after the attack, it was a populace.
Excellent example. Better than any other I could have used. This supports my argument better than anything. If you make a game based on the terrorists, you would have far too short of a game to really make it worth it. NOW if you make a game in the aftermath of that event it has much more options for story. Large grandiose plans like the ones used by the terrorists are best as exposition and explaining WHY things are the way they are.

Darth_Yuthura
11-14-2008, 09:07 PM
Sorry, but I don't see how 9/11 fits with your argument. As much as I disliked what they did, you can't ignore that they took on a juggernaut like the US and won... because they used their enemies' agents against them. That was what I expected Revan to do against the True Sith.

The best dramas I've seen are those that don't turn out as expected. It was expected that Persia would dominate Greece, but because the Greeks were so clever, they could hold off 300,000 with only a fraction that number. Who are credited as the heros? At the end of TSL, it is expected that the Sith would ultimately win. Would history have remembered the last stand of the 300 if the Persians just pulled out without reason? I guess that a stalemate was unexpected, but hardly a fitting end to a great series.

Most who are for the 300 years later often bring up that there are too few Jedi, too beat-up Republic, and that any story that comes from this is either too unbelievable or simply can't work out.

My example of 9/11 is to show that a lack of numbers does not directly influence the potential quality of any KOTOR III... in fact could make it that much better. I would be more likely to believe Revan was clever enough to beat the True Sith than that they decided to just let the Republic and Jedi regain their strength so they could have a fair fight. Why would they have done something so stupid after all the flawless actions they took before then?

Of course, this is only my opinion. Feel free to argue with it.

Tommycat
11-14-2008, 09:21 PM
Sorry, but I don't see how 9/11 fits with your argument. As much as I disliked what they did, you can't ignore that they took on a juggernaut like the US and won... because they used their enemies' agents against them. The best dramas I've seen are those that don't turn up as expected. At the end of TSL, it is expected that the Sith would ultimately win. I guess that a stalemate was unexpected, but hardly a fitting end to a series.

Most who are for the 300 years later often bring up that there are too few Jedi, too beat-up Republic, and that any story that comes from this is either too unbelievable or simply can't work out.

My example of 9/11 is to show that a lack of numbers does not directly influence the potential quality of any KOTOR III... in fact could make it that much better. I would be more likely to believe Revan was clever enough to beat the True Sith than that they decided to just let the Republic and Jedi regain their strength so they could have a fair fight. Why would they have done something so stupid after all the flawless actions they took before then?

Of course, this is only my opinion. Feel free to argue with it.
Um... in a game, you want to tell me how you could translate that little attack translates to how a game could play out. As I said, It would be better as merely exposition. The small numbers did not stop us. It did not defeat us. In fact it reinvigorated us(it was our leadership that did not properly capitalize on that that caused the breakdown).

Example: From the Sith perspective they recall that they were not planning to attack the Republic until Revan and the Exile attacked them. From the Republic perspective they could explain that Revan and the Exile slowed the inevitable advance.

Translating it to a game where the end will be that the true Sith are not stopped will not sit well with people. Keep in mind that the terrorists did not win. In fact it caused the US to lash out and attack more. though I would rather not go too far into that subject as it holds very emotional ties to it.

Darth_Yuthura
11-14-2008, 09:49 PM
I would not go into more depth on something like a terrorist attack, but anyone who says the US ultimately won is wrong. They did much more damage than they ever dreamed and we, the US, suffered terrible losses from that event. Just because we endured doesn't mean we were 'victorious.'

The point of the reference was to counter the reason that you can't have a conclusion because there aren't enough Jedi or Republic to defeat the True Sith. I think that is the very reason that KOTOR III would be so great. Anything else wouldn't make sense.

True_Avery
11-15-2008, 03:18 PM
I understand the 9/11 comparison and actually think its being cleverly used by both of you...

But, this is not a serious debate forum. If you would like to continue with the 9/11 argument, please take it to PMs. If not, then try to find a less controversial and sensitive topic to relate to.

Thanks!

By the way Darth_Yuthura: Your posting has been fine, so you don't need to constantly remind people that it is your opinion at the end of posts. Just a heads up if you think I'm watching you like a hawk or something.

Tommycat
11-15-2008, 04:46 PM
I would not go into more depth on something like a terrorist attack, but anyone who says the US ultimately won is wrong. They did much more damage than they ever dreamed and we, the US, suffered terrible losses from that event. Just because we endured doesn't mean we were 'victorious.'

The point of the reference was to counter the reason that you can't have a conclusion because there aren't enough Jedi or Republic to defeat the True Sith. I think that is the very reason that KOTOR III would be so great. Anything else wouldn't make sense.
All I'm saying is that it would be better done in exposition or a cut scene than to base a game around it. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be concluded at all. I AM however saying that it would make for an uninteresting game with that conclusion as the basis for the game. What you want for a game is basically something that could be summed up in a 2 minute cutscene. Since we would not play as Revan(because by this time he's godlike) and more likely a new character, we'd end up learning about Revan through other characters(NPC's). If we're going to do that, it hurts nothing to learn about it from others 300 years later.

Darth_Yuthura
11-18-2008, 07:37 PM
Perhaps. If Revan were indeed a god, then I would agree that any K3 game would suck.

However, I don't think that Revan was made into a god in KOTOR II. Everything that Revan had done came more from his strength of character and leadership than anything else. "Do not think that a galaxy cannot be conquered with words." I would actually think Revan would make a perfect Jedi if he had come up with something so clever, so cunning, that he didn't need to use a lightsaber at all. That would make a better conclusion than anything TOR could possibly have with all the thousands of Jedi, millions of guns, and with all the odds stacked in the Republic's favor.

Yeah... I wonder how the Republic could possibly be the victors under those conditions.

Jae Onasi
11-18-2008, 07:50 PM
Darth_Yuthura, I gotta ask, why are you posting on the TOR forum when you so clearly dislike the very idea of this game?

Darth_Yuthura
11-18-2008, 08:32 PM
I suppose I was hoping that enough people would display their discontent for the plot's timeline that Lucasarts would be forced to change it. It may seem like a vague hope, but if enough people made it clear that they wouldn't buy TOR unless the timeline were changed, Lucasarts would have to do it. Of those who voted here, more were disappointed than those who were neutral or against it being 300 years later.

Besides, I like reading the inciteful comments left behind by others.

True_Avery
11-18-2008, 11:28 PM
However, I don't think that Revan was made into a god in KOTOR II. Everything that Revan had done came more from his strength of character and leadership than anything else.
Nah, it came from Avelone writing Revan into a Mary Sue. Regardless of Light or Dark side was always in it to help the Republic. His massive amount of strength and leadership were given to Revan in TSL, and there it stayed.

"Do not think that a galaxy cannot be conquered with words." I would actually think Revan would make a perfect Jedi if he had come up with something so clever, so cunning, that he didn't need to use a lightsaber at all.
Yeah, but "I'm going to talk to you to death The Video Game" is a very uninteresting Star Wars game. Revan and Exile left, and from there we know absolutely nothing about them.

They have not released information on the location, status, history, etc of Revan and Exile yet. None. Nada. Zero. We don't know if they DID in fact keep a truce between the Republic and Sith for 300 years. We don't know if they turned to their tune and became Sith. We don't know if they became magical fairies and descended onto the planet of candy coated chocolate.

That would make a better conclusion than anything TOR could possibly have with all the thousands of Jedi, millions of guns, and with all the odds stacked in the Republic's favor.

Yeah... I wonder how the Republic could possibly be the victors under those conditions.
I'm going to remind you of where this is set:

3,500 years before Luke. What does that mean?

It means the republic is going to win regardless of what Revan, Exile, you, me etc do

Why? Because we have seen the movies. We know they are going to win. To assume otherwise is simply trying to fight fate.

Yes, maybe our all mighty man god jesus thor savior super saiyan Jedi Revan isn't there to fix the problems for the Republic... But aren't you tired of the Mary Sue fixing all the problems? There is in fact Republic before and after Revan. Revan isn't there for 25,000 years to keep the Republic safe.

So, all I can assume is that the majority of the complaints are stemming from the fact we can't be our favorite mighty man god jesus thor savior super saiyan Jedi. Yet, we weren't allowed to be in TSL and on hindsight most people seemed to like that game.

Most who are for the 300 years later often bring up that there are too few Jedi, too beat-up Republic, and that any story that comes from this is either too unbelievable or simply can't work out.
That would be a great example if this was an actual war.

But it has already been stated that this is a Cold War. They -did- in fact -lose- the war. That is the -entire- point of the game. The Sith came in, vastly outnumbered them, and the Jedi and Republic both lost in a landslide. Now the Jedi are attempting to bring their numbers up, and the ruined Republic military is attempting to put itself back together under the watchful eye of the new rulers.

They LOST.

There is no "There wouldn't be enough" because there Wasn't enough. The MMO is going to follow you and your steps to try and influence this war along with thousands or millions of others. If 1 Jedi can turn the tide and take over a Galaxy, why can't a Million push against an empire?

The Rebel alliance was vastly outnumbered and outgunned, but they won out in the end. Your example of the little guy not winning falls flat on its face when you take a look at the rest of Star Wars lore.

The point seems to be that you are a soldier on the lines trying to fight for your cause. You aren't a super smart, amazing, one of a kind main character. You're a soldier. That it what made WoW, Lotro, Matrix Online, and basically every other MMO ever made so popular.

You are an average Joe trying to do your part in a Cold War that is stacked against you.

Astor
11-19-2008, 05:51 AM
Yeah, but "I'm going to talk to you to death The Video Game" is a very uninteresting Star Wars game.

It's even in the name - Star Wars. A Star Wars game without some combat isn't going to go very far. It's built on lightsaber duels and space battles.

Yes, maybe our all mighty man god jesus thor savior super saiyan Jedi Revan isn't there to fix the problems for the Republic... But aren't you tired of the Mary Sue fixing all the problems? There is in fact Republic before and after Revan. Revan isn't there for 25,000 years to keep the Republic safe.

QFE.

So, all I can assume is that the majority of the complaints are stemming from the fact we can't be our favorite mighty man god jesus thor savior super saiyan Jedi.

I'd say that's pretty likely. 300 years later, there's barely a chance of seeing, or being Revan.

I suppose I was hoping that enough people would display their discontent for the plot's timeline that Lucasarts would be forced to change it. It may seem like a vague hope, but if enough people made it clear that they wouldn't buy TOR unless the timeline were changed, Lucasarts would have to do it.

Somehow, I don't think Lucasarts are going to change an entire game that's already in development because 60 people don't like it.

logan23
11-19-2008, 12:56 PM
I look at the kotor3 vs TOR as apples to oranges.

Kotor3 is a sequel to kotor1 and kotor2.

TOR is a new story which is grounded by the events in kotor1-2.

I was not big into the idea of a mmo type of game but if they can pull off the story in this game then they will be successful.

I like the idea of putting TOR 300 years after kotor. This allows the writers a large amount of freedom which is what I feel hurts Galaxy. In TOR you don't know the ending of the story or what will be waiting for you around the next bend in the story. :)

TOR will be a game as big as all 6 star wars episodes. I do believe we will hear about Revan and the Jedi Exile in the game. Kotor1-2 will connect with TOR in a way that the Clone war connected with Episodes 4-6, as a back drop.

I will make a prediction that what ever the Sith Emperor is looking for will be connected to what happen to Revan. Revan might show up as a force ghost or his holocron will be found during the adventure.

Logan

DarthJacen
11-19-2008, 03:58 PM
I look at the kotor3 vs TOR as apples to oranges.

Kotor3 is a sequel to kotor1 and kotor2.

TOR is a new story which is grounded by the events in kotor1-2.

I was not big into the idea of a mmo type of game but if they can pull off the story in this game then they will be successful.

I like the idea of putting TOR 300 years after kotor. This allows the writers a large amount of freedom which is what I feel hurts Galaxy. In TOR you don't know the ending of the story or what will be waiting for you around the next bend in the story. :)

TOR will be a game as big as all 6 star wars episodes. I do believe we will hear about Revan and the Jedi Exile in the game. Kotor1-2 will connect with TOR in a way that the Clone war connected with Episodes 4-6, as a back drop.

I will make a prediction that what ever the Sith Emperor is looking for will be connected to what happen to Revan. Revan might show up as a force ghost or his holocron will be found during the adventure.

Logan

They ruined the storyline based on the following logic

The Old Republic's story does answer a few questions that we had at the end of TSL. We don't know for sure but based of the evidence presented in BioWare's backstory, and the end of the lightside female version of TSL, we can theorize that the Exile goes off to meet Revan. <GAP> The True Sith emerge unscathed.

We can only assume that they were killed in their attempt to stop the sith, but what a battle it must have been. On the scale of Anakin and the Clones, verse the entire Jedi Temple. Or, the Geonosis Arena battle.

Anyway, here's my point about KOTOR 3, you play a game for 30 - 50 hours of going around unknown space with Revan, the Exile, and your new character. You seem to get to the final battle and you beat the villan. Then, a cut scene starts that shows your entire party being slaughtered, the Sith emerge in known space with an armada, and you lose anyway. Would anyone really want to do all that work when you are guaranteed to lose, anyway?

That's about as anticlimactic as the King Arthur and the Knights of Round Table being arrested at the end of Monty Python and the Holy Grail, and they didn't find the cup, either.

True_Avery
11-19-2008, 04:22 PM
Again, sorry that you can't play your mighty man god jesus thor savior super saiyan Jedis.

Your argument would have plenty of feet if this was set 30 years after or so.

This is 300. Ok, please let that sink in for once.

Three hundred years.

Ok, now imagine that maybe Revan and Exile DID in fact do SOMETHING to the True Sith. After all, they did not attack til THREE HUNDRED YEARS LATER.

That's about as anticlimactic as the King Arthur and the Knights of Round Table being arrested at the end of Monty Python and the Holy Grail, and they didn't find the cup, either.
It absolutely is not. At all.

King Arthur and the Knights make it to the end of Monty Python. Then a sequel is made 5 years later, and you play as a new King, but with mostly the same knights. At the end, you hear King Arthur might be off doing something and you'll go help him.

Then 300 years later, Hitler Germany invades and takes over Europe.

Not the greatest example, but you get my point. It has been 300 years.

This Sith invasion is just another invasion the Republic faces in its like, 15,000 year lifespan.

The Sith are attacking again, and this time they pretty much won. This doesn't even have to be Revan's True Sith. It doesn't have to be Exile's True Sith. For all we know, they made a truce or something with them for 300 years, then some new Sith Lord comes around and breaks it.

300 years. Thats the difference between America being a bunch of huts and small houses, and present day.

300 years.

That is 100 years, 3 times.

That is roughly how old our America is.

Thats longer than 50 years ago. Before World War 1 and 2!

Thats 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1.

Revan and Exile probably didn't make it past 100 years.

A lot happens in 200 more years!

Anyway, here's my point about KOTOR 3, you play a game for 30 - 50 hours of going around unknown space with Revan, the Exile, and your new character. You seem to get to the final battle and you beat the villan. Then, a cut scene starts that shows your entire party being slaughtered, the Sith emerge in known space with an armada, and you lose anyway. Would anyone really want to do all that work when you are guaranteed to lose, anyway?
Guess what?

http://www.alexandgregory.com/images/darth%20sidious%205325.jpg

You lose in 3,500 years anyway.

Everything that they do in the old Republic is pointless, because we already know the Republic and Jedi both get wiped out by Sidious.

There, story over.

C'mon. Thats like saying Call of Duty is pointless to play because we already know Hitler is going to lose. Or saying that researching about Napoleon is pointless because we already know Barack Obama will be elected.

TKA-001
11-19-2008, 05:28 PM
Would anyone really want to do all that work when you are guaranteed to lose, anyway?
People [apparently] didn't want the ending in TFU to be good, either, so what the people want doesn't matter as much as you might think.

Also, what Ctrl said.

Darth_Yuthura
11-19-2008, 08:08 PM
I read somewhere that having an ending that involves Revan and the Exile defeating the True Sith would be cheating and anti-climatic.

I would say that creating a 300-year gap with no logical explanation... that's cheating! Why not just leave TOR with a new cliffhanger and make the next game 300 years after that? If all you have to do is set the timeline a few hundred years later and give a vague explanation that doesn't even make sense, then Lucasarts has become very cheap indeed.

Why not just let the True Sith defeat the Republic and conquer the galaxy for the next 3450 years? Then somewhere along the line, for no reason, the Jedi emerge on top just in time for The Phantom Menace. Why would anyone like a climax if they know the resolution can just be nothing more than a vague description of something completely new?

The very existence of this game is a cheat! KOTOR III is the resolution, not TOR!

Tommycat
11-19-2008, 10:33 PM
I read somewhere that having an ending that involves Revan and the Exile defeating the True Sith would be cheating and anti-climatic.
And they would be right. To an extent.

I would say that creating a 300-year gap with no logical explanation... that's cheating! Why not just leave TOR with a new cliffhanger and make the next game 300 years after that? If all you have to do is set the timeline a few hundred years later and give a vague explanation that doesn't even make sense, then Lucasarts has become very cheap indeed.
So you know every bit of dialog in TOR will have no explanation at all of why it took 300 years for the True Sith to attack? Exposition of godly deeds rather than somehow being the godly character.

Why not just let the True Sith defeat the Republic and conquer the galaxy for the next 3450 years? Then somewhere along the line, for no reason, the Jedi emerge on top just in time for The Phantom Menace. Why would anyone like a climax if they know the resolution can just be nothing more than a vague description of something completely new?
Interestingly enough, in the movies they say that the republic has stood for a thousand years. So technically they could have the True Sith defeat the Republic and conquer the galaxy for about 2500 years. Then the republic being reformed for the last thousand.

The very existence of this game is a cheat! KOTOR III is the resolution, not TOR!
HAHA Riiiiiiiight. A Godly character isn't a cheat, but a game you have NO idea what the story is, somehow is a cheat. Or is it because it's 300 years later. Set only a few years after TSL would be like the ANH era, with no or very few jedi. Setting it 300 years later gives an abundant pool of fresh jedi to pick from.

Darth_Yuthura
11-19-2008, 10:44 PM
Yeah... cheat. If you disagree, then don't support my side of the argument. I would think a god-like character is a lot better because it at least required some effort. Lucasarts cheated by not completing the KOTOR series and starting anew 300 years later.

What if for the last Harry Potter novel, Atkinson just resumed the plot after the villain was defeated? Voldomort was too powerful, everyone was dead, and everything was hopeless, so her solution... Just start afresh!

Try making a good ending to such a climatic ending to TSL. If anyone wants to complain, then remember that the TSL ending is bad because they created such an anti-climatic end with TOR. My anger is directed at the ones who decided to begin anew and just leave the climax in limbo indefinitely.

Tommycat
11-19-2008, 11:23 PM
Yeah... cheat. If you disagree, then don't support my side of the argument. I would think a god-like character is a lot better because it at least required some effort. Lucasarts cheated by not completing the KOTOR series and starting anew 300 years later.
No, they didn't cheat. They just didn't feel there was a game's worth of content following the god created by TSL.

What if for the last Harry Potter novel, Atkinson just resumed the plot after the villain was defeated? Voldomort was too powerful, everyone was dead, and everything was hopeless, so her solution... Just start afresh!
Not comparable. It would be like if they Killed Voldemort in the first novel and the second novel only had honorable mentions of Harry, while you follow a new character around, who defeats a trio of bad wizards, then the third comes out and explains how the two stories are related.

Try making a good ending to such a climatic ending to TSL. If anyone wants to complain, then remember that the TSL ending is bad because they created such an anti-climatic end with TOR. My anger is directed at the ones who decided to begin anew and just leave the climax in limbo indefinitely.

Did you even PLAY TSL? The story end was anti-climatic long before TOR came out. Granted the game was rushed, but the end of that petered out completely. TOR didn't kill the story, TSL did more so than TOR. By not having the main character from the first in there as anything more than an honorable mention, and flinging him off to face psychotically stupid odds in a region of space that he had no idea about.

Darth_Yuthura
11-19-2008, 11:23 PM
Ok, now imagine that maybe Revan and Exile DID in fact do SOMETHING to the True Sith. After all, they did not attack til THREE HUNDRED YEARS LATER.

It absolutely is not. At all.

King Arthur and the Knights make it to the end of Monty Python. Then a sequel is made 5 years later, and you play as a new King, but with mostly the same knights. At the end, you hear King Arthur might be off doing something and you'll go help him.

I think people are missing the point that DarthJacen was emphasizing. It's not a matter of whether or not they have a good idea or not, but that their idea completely tramples upon the ending of TSL. I don't want a clean slate! I don't want an ending that leaves the KOTOR story stagnant for 300 years! If it takes place 300 years after KOTOR ends, but is not an ending... THAT'S alright with me.

The True Sith were introduced in the second game for the purpose of being used in the third installment. If everyone is so disappointed in the second game, then why are so many for this to come out? Don't forget that the True Sith were introduced in the second game... they were NEVER officially stated in the first.

It doesn't matter how great TOR ever will be because it isn't completely new, but it doesn't properly end the KOTOR series. It is a pathetic attempt by lucasarts to give the game two faces... one new and as a KOTOR continuation.

Darth_Yuthura
11-19-2008, 11:28 PM
No, they didn't cheat. They just didn't feel there was a game's worth of content following the god created by TSL.

Then why are they doing TOR at all?

You can't attack TSL and defend TOR at the same time because the climax of the sequel is the reason for what's in development. And no, TSL did not end until TOR came along.

Tommycat
11-19-2008, 11:38 PM
Then why are they doing TOR at all?

Simple answer: they can tie up loose ends while still having a good game with a new possibly better story.

Yes you can tie up loose ends with an MMO. What happened in the unknown regions with Revan and the Exile has not been fully explained. At least not in the FAQ's or the game info. In fact nothing much is stated about them there. This may be something you get to discover as you play the game. There may even be an optional quest line that has you learn much more about the two characters' exploits in the Unknown Regions than a game right after the end of TSL. At this point, it is too early to say they killed the story.

Darth_Yuthura
11-20-2008, 01:38 AM
Tie up loose ends? You mean conclude KOTOR... how? By killing off all the characters and extending the conflict for 300 years? The reason why I liked TSL better than the first was because it enriched an already great plot, but this has destroyed all that.

This all comes down to one VERY minor change that makes ALL the difference: set the game to take place in the KOTOR era. There is an entire Galaxy, so there is nothing that restricts the storyline in any way. By killing Revan and the Exile and keeping the same villain for 300 years, I would rather they not touched KOTOR at all. They must either have all or nothing about how the conflict is resolved. I do not want this new plot touching KOTOR in any way unless they make it into the third installment. And everyone knows WHEN that installment should be.

Tommycat
11-20-2008, 02:43 AM
Tie up loose ends? You mean conclude KOTOR... how? By killing off all the characters and extending the conflict for 300 years? The reason why I liked TSL better than the first was because it enriched an already great plot, but this has destroyed all that.
YOU DO NOT KNOW THAT! This did not destroy anything. You are projecting what you believe with VERY little knowledge. They tie up the loose ends of two overly powerful characters that would be impossible to make a game from. YOU HEAR THAT PART, IMPOSSIBLE! You cannot have an RPG that starts out with such a super godly creation as was described in TSL. It made Revan out to be super godly. All knowing and able to eat sith while killing mandalorians by the millions with each swing of his saber. Revan became too powerful(because of TSL) to be let back into the universe. The Exile was so powerful that she could destroy the Force. Those two characters CANNOT be continued.
This all comes down to one VERY minor change that makes ALL the difference: set the game to take place in the KOTOR era. There is an entire Galaxy, so there is nothing that restricts the storyline in any way. By killing Revan and the Exile and keeping the same villain for 300 years, I would rather they not touched KOTOR at all. They must either have all or nothing about how the conflict is resolved. I do not want this new plot touching KOTOR in any way unless they make it into the third installment. And everyone knows WHEN that installment should be.
No, Because after the events of TSL BOTH Revan and The Exile are both removed from the story as far as known space is concerned. Kicked out into fairy dust land. POOF, Gone. That was their grand plan to get rid of the Mary Sue characters. If anything having it set so far away makes it easier to tell what happened. Set right after TSL there would be no way of knowing what happened. Set after the True Sith invasion, you can get the whole story about how they sacrificed their lives to delay the invasion until after the jedi and republic had time to rebuild.

Darth_Yuthura
11-20-2008, 09:40 AM
Impossible to resume the story from the end of TSL? Lot's of fan fictions have been resumed from the ashes of TSL and emerged pretty interesting to me. I think my favorite one was that the Council were right from the beginning. The True Sith staged the Mandalorian wars, knowing that if they were victorious, they would eventually eradicate the True Sith.

This would explain why the Council refused to get involved in the war... because they knew the True Sith were setting themselves up to be destroyed only so that the Jedi would defeat the Mandalorians for them. Remember Canderous saying "the sith would be nothing more than a boarder skirmish"? That's exactly what would have happened if Revan didn't get involved in the first place.

How about another example that KOTOR III is not only possible, but would be the best option? If you had seen Episode three before the Star Wars trilogy, wouldn't it have been the least bit disappointing to have the next plotline happen 300 years later? How could anyone possibly say there is no way for a third KOTOR when there is a perfect example in the Star Wars trilogy and pretrilogy?

I'm not just trying to say the same thing time and time again, but I don't agree with the reasons that have been given for TOR. It is clearly possible that there can be a KOTOR III, but it would just require some effort to come up with a conclusion rather than start anew.

TKA-001
11-20-2008, 10:24 AM
my favorite one was that the Council were right from the beginning.
Why do you need fan fiction to tell you that?

Remember Canderous saying "the sith would be nothing more than a boarder skirmish"? That's exactly what would have happened if Revan didn't get involved in the first place.
No, it isn't what would have happened. I think Canderous has read too many Karen Travesty novels.

Astor
11-20-2008, 11:33 AM
Impossible to resume the story from the end of TSL? Lot's of fan fictions have been resumed from the ashes of TSL and emerged pretty interesting to me. I think my favorite one was that the Council were right from the beginning. The True Sith staged the Mandalorian wars, knowing that if they were victorious, they would eventually eradicate the True Sith.

That's a fan fiction though. Pure speculation and wishful thinking on the part of the writer.

How about another example that KOTOR III is not only possible, but would be the best option? If you had seen Episode three before the Star Wars trilogy, wouldn't it have been the least bit disappointing to have the next plotline happen 300 years later?

'If you had seen' it before doesn't matter. The Original Trilogy was made before the prequels - which where then made to explain how things came to be. The prequels wouldn't exist if the Original trilogy didn't.

How could anyone possibly say there is no way for a third KOTOR when there is a perfect example in the Star Wars trilogy and pretrilogy?

Because it's not a perfect example.

I'm not just trying to say the same thing time and time again, but I don't agree with the reasons that have been given for TOR.

As I said before, Lucasarts doesn't care. They don't owe us a KOTORIII, just like they don't owe us a JK4.

No, it isn't what would have happened. I think Canderous has read too many Karen Travesty novels.

Unfortunately, too many people have.

TKA-001
11-20-2008, 11:53 AM
That's a fan fiction though. Pure speculation and wishful thinking on the part of the writer.
More like "badly-written self-insertion fantasy fulfillment wishfully-speculative thinking" (much like the stuff KT writes, come to think of it, but not official).

Darth_Yuthura
11-20-2008, 03:18 PM
Read.

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1749933/19/Shattered_Knight

This is not just some cheap piece of work... the quality of this is remarkable. It predates TSL, but it is an example of the many possible options that could be done for KOTOR III. The point is that it is not only possible, but probable that you can have a decent conclusion that doesn't involve erasing everything and starting anew 300 years later.

The point is that at the end of TSL, you're left thinking the Council were the villains, but it would have been astounding to realize that they were right from the beginning and that Revan was, in fact, not the godlike Jedi TSL made him out to be... given that he did exactly what the True Sith wanted from the start.

And to Astor_Kaine... unless you have a reason to say otherwise, don't just contradict what I say. The ending to the pretrilogy is an excellent example because it is chronologically ordered so that episode three PRECEEDS episode four. The plot is virtually the same as is for the ending of KOTOR. The Jedi are crippled and struggle to survive while an enemy has become more powerful than ever. If the original trilogy was not liked, then that's something to argue with.

Astor
11-20-2008, 03:28 PM
This is not just some cheap piece of work... the quality of this is remarkable. It predates TSL, but it is an example of the many possible options that could be done for KOTOR III. The point is that it is not only possible, but probable that you can have a decent conclusion that doesn't involve erasing everything and starting anew 300 years later.

Just because there is the possibility doesn't mean there should be a KOTORIII. Again, they don't owe us a KOTORIII.

And to Astor_Kaine... unless you have a reason to say otherwise, don't just contradict what I say.

I do have a reason, thank you. Do you?

The ending to the pretrilogy is an excellent example because it is chronologically ordered so that episode three PRECEEDS episode four.

That is the general meaning of a prequel, yes.

My entire point is that your example is wrong. The prequels only exist because they were made to answer the questions raised in the Original Trilogy.

The Star Wars prequels were pre-destined to lead up to the Original Trilogy, which I why I disagreed with your example - it's not a very good one.

DarthJacen
11-20-2008, 03:52 PM
Again, sorry that you can't play your mighty man god jesus thor savior super saiyan Jedis.

Your argument would have plenty of feet if this was set 30 years after or so.

This is 300. Ok, please let that sink in for once.

Three hundred years.

Ok, now imagine that maybe Revan and Exile DID in fact do SOMETHING to the True Sith. After all, they did not attack til THREE HUNDRED YEARS LATER.


It absolutely is not. At all.

King Arthur and the Knights make it to the end of Monty Python. Then a sequel is made 5 years later, and you play as a new King, but with mostly the same knights. At the end, you hear King Arthur might be off doing something and you'll go help him.

Then 300 years later, Hitler Germany invades and takes over Europe.

Not the greatest example, but you get my point. It has been 300 years.

This Sith invasion is just another invasion the Republic faces in its like, 15,000 year lifespan.

The Sith are attacking again, and this time they pretty much won. This doesn't even have to be Revan's True Sith. It doesn't have to be Exile's True Sith. For all we know, they made a truce or something with them for 300 years, then some new Sith Lord comes around and breaks it.

300 years. Thats the difference between America being a bunch of huts and small houses, and present day.

300 years.

That is 100 years, 3 times.

That is roughly how old our America is.

Thats longer than 50 years ago. Before World War 1 and 2!

Thats 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1.

Revan and Exile probably didn't make it past 100 years.

A lot happens in 200 more years!


Guess what?

http://www.alexandgregory.com/images/darth%20sidious%205325.jpg

You lose in 3,500 years anyway.

Everything that they do in the old Republic is pointless, because we already know the Republic and Jedi both get wiped out by Sidious.

There, story over.

C'mon. Thats like saying Call of Duty is pointless to play because we already know Hitler is going to lose. Or saying that researching about Napoleon is pointless because we already know Barack Obama will be elected.


Except, that the Sith Emperor, here, is one thousand years old, I don't think there is a hovercraft built, yet for that kind of age. He must have some serious health issues. Not to mention the cat naps and senility. Anyway, my point is that the Emperor was alive when Revan first showed up with Malak to learn the sith ways. And, he was around when the Exile met with Revan. He wasn't kill by either of them working together. I can only assume that Revan and the Exile were slaughtered once they trespassed on Sith soil. They would have put up one heck of a fight, no doubt about it. They may have even wounded the Emperor in the battle, but the Emperor survives and emerges unscathed, when Revan and the Exile do not. How is that not anticlimactic?

We were all expecting the good guys to triumph over evil. The stage was set for a ROTJ finish, but it ended like TPM with this sense that we won the battle but could still lose the war.

Jae Onasi
11-20-2008, 03:54 PM
I suppose I was hoping that enough people would display their discontent for the plot's timeline that Lucasarts would be forced to change it. It may seem like a vague hope, but if enough people made it clear that they wouldn't buy TOR unless the timeline were changed, Lucasarts would have to do it. Of those who voted here, more were disappointed than those who were neutral or against it being 300 years later.

Besides, I like reading the inciteful comments left behind by others.

Well, the comments in this thread certainly has incited a great deal of activity.... ;P

LA isn't going to change it. Bioware is already well into the development, and the TOR forum at bioware.com has a few thousand people going absolutely gaga over this project. The few people here who express discontent aren't going to outweigh the huge number of people over at Bioware and a lot of other places (including here) who are already going nuts waiting for the game to come out.

Darth_Yuthura
11-20-2008, 03:59 PM
I do have a reason, thank you. Do you?

The Star Wars prequels were pre-destined to lead up to the Original Trilogy, which I why I disagreed with your example - it's not a very good one.

That's right. They don't 'owe' us anything... they're trying to make as much money as possible from fans. That's why they're giving something that vaguely touches upon an ending for KOTOR... that way, they could leave open the possibility of a K3 if this goes under. If this came AFTER K3 were finished and released, then it would no longer have a base of fans to rely on.

I still stand by my example because it doesn't really matter what order they were released in real life. The first three ultimately lead to the last three chronologically. The story is the same no matter what order they were released... if you want to say that you hated Episode Three and ultimately hated how they transitioned to the original trilogy, then that's something I can't argue with.

If you're saying that because Episode three was ultimately a terrible movie, then you can say the same thing would happen with any K3 conclusion. Just dismissing my example on a mere technicality doesn't really apply because any K3 would be the same as an episode three.

------------

Anyway, I already said it once, but since it is not doing anything other than expressing discontent, I should just leave this thread to its demise.

TKA-001
11-20-2008, 04:26 PM
Except, that the Sith Emperor, here, is one thousand years old, I don't think there is a hovercraft built, yet for that kind of age. He must have some serious health issues. Not to mention the cat naps and senility. Anyway, my point is that the Emperor was alive when Revan first showed up with Malak to learn the sith ways. And, he was around when the Exile met with Revan. He wasn't kill by either of them working together. I can only assume that Revan and the Exile were slaughtered once they trespassed on Sith soil. They would have put up one heck of a fight, no doubt about it. They may have even wounded the Emperor in the battle, but the Emperor survives and emerges unscathed, when Revan and the Exile do not. How is that not anticlimactic?
Since when does it have to be climatic anyway? I'd take that over the average fan's idea of how it should go, if for no other reason than the fact that it would be a breath of fresh air.

We were all expecting the good guys to triumph over evil.
I'm sick of the good guys winning every single freaking game. I'd like some variation. At least have them win in a different way.

Well, the comments in this thread certainly has incited a great deal of activity.... ;P

LA isn't going to change it. Bioware is already well into the development, and the TOR forum at bioware.com has a few thousand people going absolutely gaga over this project. The few people here who express discontent aren't going to outweigh the huge number of people over at Bioware and a lot of other places (including here) who are already going nuts waiting for the game to come out.
While your logic is sound, what relevance does that hold? Nobody here is pretending that they can change the situation.

Jae Onasi
11-20-2008, 07:00 PM
That's right. They don't 'owe' us anything... they're trying to make as much money as possible from fans.

It's a business--making as much money as possible in business is to be expected.

Emperor Devon
11-22-2008, 03:39 AM
They don't 'owe' us anything... they're trying to make as much money as possible from fans.

:devscare: I'll alert the media. This has to get out.

Tommycat
11-22-2008, 04:47 AM
Funny thing that you mention epIII to epIV. Rather than that try EPII to EPIV. Personally I would rather have had EP I and II take place 300+ years before EPIV. At least they wouldn't have had so many issues with consistency between the prequels and the OT. Heck they could have had EP I and II take place 300+ years before, and have EP III show the purge and rise of Darth Vader 300 years later. At least we wouldn't have had the sappy love story that was EP II haha.

Sharen Thrawn
11-23-2008, 03:12 PM
:devscare: I'll alert the media. This has to get out.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

That's right. They don't 'owe' us anything... they're trying to make as much money as possible from fans. That's why they're giving something that vaguely touches upon an ending for KOTOR... that way, they could leave open the possibility of a K3 if this goes under. If this came AFTER K3 were finished and released, then it would no longer have a base of fans to rely on.
I think they could have even a bigger fanbase to rely on if the MMO came after the third SP game. Kotor franchise become a classic after only two games released. The third one would only further establish the series position and enlarge it's already huge fanbase. A perfect base to introduce an MMO me think (doesn't it remind of Warcraft?).

TKA-001
11-23-2008, 04:31 PM
Kotor franchise become a classic after only two games released.
That's because you can't really call it a franchise if the franchise has only produced one thing.

Sharen Thrawn
11-23-2008, 04:45 PM
That's because you can't really call it a franchise if the franchise has only produced one thing.
:confused: Do you say that only one of the games became a classic?

TKA-001
11-23-2008, 05:00 PM
No, I don't. How is that relevant to what I said?

Sharen Thrawn
11-23-2008, 05:03 PM
No, I don't. How is that relevant to what I said?
Don't really get what you wanted to say in the original post :confused:

TKA-001
11-23-2008, 05:13 PM
The key word was "franchise".

Sharen Thrawn
11-23-2008, 05:55 PM
The key word was "franchise".
Franchise = a series of products. KOTOR franchise produced 2 video games and a series of comic books and I said that the whole franchise became a classic one in a very short amount of time. Then you say we can't really call sth a franchise if the franchise has only produced one thing. That's true of course but what does it have to do with KOTOR franchise which produced multiple things :confused:

TKA-001
11-23-2008, 05:57 PM
Ok, you've got me. I forgot where I was going with that.

Darth_Yuthura
11-24-2008, 01:09 PM
I guess that I'm not one to do the smart thing, but I'm going to keep posting for as long as there are others out there to listen.

-------

Sharen Thrawn made a good point that I utterly agree with. There was a fanbase to the KOTOR 'franchise' which might have been alienated by this latest thing.

I would have been interested in an MMO if the story took place in the KOTOR era. I, for one, feel cheated by TOR. They may have gotten more fans through what they did... they might not. I am one such KOTOR fan who WILL NOT be a part of this. I think that based on the poll I've given, that there are a number of KOTOR fans not content that this isn't a continuation of the KOTOR franchise.

I particularly hate this because it tramples upon the possibility for a third installation. Other projects like "the force unleashed" did not. Either do something completely different and leave KOTOR alone, or do the third installation, lucarts!

Jae Onasi
11-25-2008, 03:13 PM
Sharen Thrawn made a good point that I utterly agree with. There was a fanbase to the KOTOR 'franchise' which might have been alienated by this latest thing.
I'll argue that TOR has just created an even bigger market of potential fans for any possible K3. I'll also re-iterate what Avery has said many times: we know absolutely nothing about the TOR story. We don't know if Revan and Exile will be given any kind of mention, much less how much of a part there is. In fact, as far as TOR is concerned, since it's set so far ahead of the Kotor series, if they make no mention at all of the 2, so be it.

For those who argue that TOR being 300 years ahead means that Revan and Exile lost, we don't know that. Use France for an example: Early 1800's, Napoleon mowed over a lot of Europe to become Emperor. Fast forward almost 150 years, and France is occupied by the Germans in WW2. Just because the Republic falls doesn't mean that Revan and Exile failed any more than just because France fell to the Germans means Napoleon failed in becoming an Emperor. All this just means is that the galaxy has been a very busy place in 300 years and a lot has change since Revan and Exile were around. Also, knowing that the Germans march into Paris in WW2 does not make the amazing story of Napoleon's conquering Europe any less fascinating or compelling. If LA decides to go back and hire a company to make K3, it's not going to be ruined by TOR unless TOR spoonfeeds us every last detail of history, and I doubt that will happen.

I would have been interested in an MMO if the story took place in the KOTOR era.The Old Republic era takes place over thousands of years--the Kotor games occupy a tiny fraction of that time period. I'd love it if they did a game on Jolee, and I bet a good number of other people would like that, too. However, I'm not going to write off TOR completely because I can't have an 'Adventures of Jolee Bindo' RPG.

I, for one, feel cheated by TOR.You know nothing about the game except it''s set 300 years after TSL and it's an MMO, and based on those 2 bits of info, you've now been 'cheated'. Right. How can you possibly be 'cheated' out of something that was never promised to begin with? Go ahead and be disappointed if you want, but don't tell me you were cheated. If anything, you've cheated yourself by having the expectation to begin with. That's just the way life goes sometimes. This is a business decision--Star Wars is extremely popular, and MMOs are extremely popular. From a business point of view, it makes absolute sense to make a SW MMO rather than a SP RPG.

They may have gotten more fans through what they did... they might not.
Looking at the numbers of threads in this forum and the huge numbers of people on the TOR forum, it looks to me like they'll have earned a lot more fans, provided they can produce a good product at a decent price.
I am one such KOTOR fan who WILL NOT be a part of this.So? I didn't get my Jolee game either--big whip. That's your loss, then, because it sounds like it'll be a lot of fun, regardless of whether Revan and Exile have anything to do with it.

I think that based on the poll I've given, that there are a number of KOTOR fans not content that this isn't a continuation of the KOTOR franchise.
Did you carefully construct your poll questions with absolutely no bias, seek out a broad cross-section of all gaming fans, and get a sufficiently large sample size (minimum 100) to make the results meaningful? No? Then basing any kind of business decision off of this would be most unwise. All it says in this completely non-scientific poll is there are 62 fans on Lucasforums who wished for K3 but won't see it any time soon (if ever).
I particularly hate this because it tramples upon the possibility for a third installation.There is no possible way you can know that when we know nothing about the TOR story or any projects LA may have in the pipeline.

Other projects like "the force unleashed" did not. Either do something completely different and leave KOTOR alone, or do the third installation, lucarts!
They are doing something different--they're setting it ahead 300 years so they don''t even have to mention a single thing about Kotor if they don''t want to. There's a Clone Wars game and it's set in the Old Republic, too. I suppose that's not OK, either. Heaven forbid we branch out into new territory.

Hallucination
11-25-2008, 09:10 PM
All it says in this completely non-scientific poll is there are 62 fans on Lucasforums who wished for K3 but won't see it any time soon (if ever).
Despite what the poll numbers say, there are are actually 61. ;)

Darth_Yuthura
11-26-2008, 10:16 AM
That's right, this has enough in terms of numbers (>30) but this was not just a random sample drawn out from a whole. The majority of those that chose to vote were against 300 years later.

And Jae's example of France doesn't make sense to me. It would have been more like if France had been occupied right after the times of Napolion. Instead of liberating his State, Napolion would have left it exposed for invasion 150 years later by Germany. This did not happen, as France was the dominant power in Europe after Napoleon. And in between his campaign was WWI... therefore, WWII and Napolion's campaigns were completely unrelated.

And I will continue to believe that I was cheated. It was reasonable to assume, based on KOTOR II, that a third installation was going to be made. An official at Lucasarts had once stated "We won't leave KOTOR behind" It is reasonable to be disappointed that they made a huge climax and just left it behind.

Astor
11-26-2008, 10:53 AM
That's right, this has enough in terms of numbers (>30) but this was not just a random sample drawn out from a whole. The majority of those that chose to vote were against 300 years later.

That's because the questions in the poll directly link to KOTOR III, which is an unreasonable connection to make in the first place. You've assumed that TOR's story will directly relate to the KOTOR series, when there's no evidence of that.

An official at Lucasarts had once stated "We won't leave KOTOR behind" It is reasonable to be disappointed that they made a huge climax and just left it behind.

Which, so far, they haven't left it behind. There hasn't been a game in 3-4 years, but that doesn't mean it's been left behind. The announcement of TOR doesn't mean that KOTOR is dead.

Jeff
11-26-2008, 11:51 AM
There's also no evidence whatsoever that TOR is taking the place of KOTOR III, or that a KOTOR III won't happen because of TOR.Actually, TOR is in place of KotOR 3. In the unveiling video (http://www.starwarsmmo.net/features/star-wars-the-old-republic-unveiling-video/) Ray and Greg (BioWare founders) discuss why they are making this instead of KotOR 3, and how it is really KotOR 3, 4, 5, 6, etc.

gianner
11-26-2008, 12:03 PM
You cant compare those two. Its true and obvious TOR wont be taking the place of KOTOR III. But I bet you all heard their promises for learning what happened to Revan and the others.
Bioware hasn't abandoned yet the idea of KOTOR III. Although chances of it being created are minimal...
Now this poll is completely useless, because there is no meaning comparing TOR with a possible KOTOR III (No offence...)

Prime
11-26-2008, 12:04 PM
There's also no evidence whatsoever that TOR is taking the place of KOTOR III, or that a KOTOR III won't happen because of TOR.Actually, there is, isn't there? I thought LA and Bioware basically have come out and said that is the case. I seem to remember that, although someone can correct me if that is wrong.

Jeff
11-26-2008, 12:21 PM
You cant compare those two. Its true and obvious TOR wont be taking the place of KOTOR III. But I bet you all heard their promises for learning what happened to Revan and the others.
Bioware hasn't abandoned yet the idea of KOTOR III. Although chances of it being created are minimal...
Now this poll is completely useless, because there is no meaning comparing TOR with a possible KOTOR III (No offence...)
Uh...
Actually, TOR is in place of KotOR 3. In the unveiling video (http://www.starwarsmmo.net/features/star-wars-the-old-republic-unveiling-video/) Ray and Greg (BioWare founders) discuss why they are making this instead of KotOR 3, and how it is really KotOR 3, 4, 5, 6, etc.

Astor
11-26-2008, 12:25 PM
I stand corrected on that point - I have to say i've only recently started to follow the development of TOR, so I didn't know that. :)

Darth_Yuthura
11-26-2008, 01:00 PM
It has been explicitly stated that TOR was what was being made instead of KOTOR III, IV, ext. Since the first TOR... if there is a second or more after that... takes place 300 years later, most of what was in the KOTOR era is gone.

Some people said this was a clean slate to make a better story than right after TSL, but I didn't want a clean slate with no explanation for how it went from one era to the next outside of a vague history that would be told in the background of this new thing. If there were a proper ending to the first era... a KOTOR III... then I would be more accepting of TOR, but its emergence means the death of any of that.

Christos K
11-26-2008, 02:19 PM
I have faith in this game and I hope it will be fun and all but it will never ever replace my hopes of a true KotOR 3.

gianner
11-26-2008, 04:02 PM
Actually, TOR is in place of KotOR 3. In the unveiling video (http://www.starwarsmmo.net/features/star-wars-the-old-republic-unveiling-video/) Ray and Greg (BioWare founders) discuss why they are making this instead of KotOR 3, and how it is really KotOR 3, 4, 5, 6, etc.

No its not. They didnt say instead of KotOR 3 you really get 3, 4, 5, 6, etc.
They said that the story will be so big, that it will be like having KotOR 3, 4, 5, 6, etc altogether.

My opinion is that you cant compare two different games (RPG & MMORPG). Its like comparing milk with ice-cream.

Darth_Yuthura
11-26-2008, 08:05 PM
I'm more interested in the story than the change in the game format.

300 years later is like the comparison above in terms of the story. You can't make milk from ice-cream, but you can make ice-cream from milk. Naturally, you can't expect that all who demand milk would buy ice-cream. Once it's processed, you can't revert it.

Tommycat
11-26-2008, 09:46 PM
Darth Yuthura, your poll is hardly unbiassed. There was no possible alternative answer. Your poll has only "Yes it killed the story", "I don't mind that it killed the story," and "what story give me gameplay." To be a fair poll, you have to have Yes, No, Not sure. And honestly at this point, we have no idea what the story is. None of us know whether Revan was frozen in carbonite only to continue his story at a later date.

Where is the answer for the KotOR fans that won't play TOR because it's an MMO? The answer that reads, "I don't care because I won't play an MMO." The closest answer for them is either "yes it killed it" or "Gameplay is what matters"

And the milk and ice cream analogy:
ah but there are people who would buy milk that would buy ice cream, cheese, and other milk based products. And you couldn't expect that all the people that like ice cream would necessarily want to buy milk. Milk 300 years later can still be gotten. Maybe not from the same cow(as of yet), but it can still be gotten. erm... where the heck is this going?

gianner
11-27-2008, 02:00 AM
Just leave it there Tommycat!! Its not how old it is. Thanks for the milk_ice-cream Darth_Yuthura.
You made your point. Now we all want a KOTOR 3. That is a fact.

But if, I say IF, TOR gives us a good story (that fourth pillar of Bioware's) and has a good gameplay why not give it a try?

In this society you cant expect anything good to be given away just like that. Money is what rules us all. Thats why TOR is the winner and not KOTOR3.

Web Rider
11-27-2008, 02:39 PM
And the milk and ice cream analogy:
ah but there are people who would buy milk that would buy ice cream, cheese, and other milk based products. And you couldn't expect that all the people that like ice cream would necessarily want to buy milk. Milk 300 years later can still be gotten. Maybe not from the same cow(as of yet), but it can still be gotten. erm... where the heck is this going?

Well I was hoping it would lead towards a nice Denver omelet, but alas, it did not go there.

Yes, it's unfortunate that TOR as a concept is not what we KOTOR fans were looking for, but lets at least see if it's got a story of any sort, and ya know, give them a chance to present their product before flaying it and eating it alive.

gianner
11-27-2008, 04:08 PM
I am willing to give them a chance. I have given away so many chances, whats one more?
If we were getting paid for every time we were dissapointed by a project, we'd all be rich by now...

logan23
11-27-2008, 09:04 PM
Basically it comes down to reinventing its-self.

It has been some years since kotor2.
I believe Lucas Arts hard ideas and concepts for a kotor3 but when there was a shakeup in the company the idea of kotor3 was pushed back.

When they came around to making another kotor game they thought what can we bring new to the franchise of kotor.

They decided if they can bring the story alive in a mmo then that would be the best way to take the kotor series to the next level.

Some would argue that a better plan would be to make kotor3 and then have TOR mmo in the back and release it a year after to piggyback and boost sales.

I think once they saw the potential that a kotor mmo had they decided that thye can always leak what happen to Revan and Exile after kotor2 as a type of easter egg in TOR.

I see a lot of debate on having the mmo around the time of the original kotor series but I believe that is what hurt Galaxy.

Galaxy was limited in story since we all knew what happens.
In TOR mmo you will have no idea whats going to happen, no limits.

What made Kotor1/2 so great was the ability to break away from the limits of the Skywalker galaxy. This allowed new characters, new worlds new adventures. It made kotor so fresh and new.

What makes a great Epic is the ability to care for the characters and to keep the reader/player anxious on what will happen on the next page in the adventure.

I never played a mmo but TOR with its story feature makes me want to jump in and ride the adventure just as I did when I first saw the Star wars movies and kotor games. Its a great feeling:)

Logan

Rathoris
11-28-2008, 05:47 AM
on an unrelated note, has anybody seen the new screenshots released a few hours ago? Looks alot better then the first batch. Despite the fact that i want to finish the story set out in K1 and K2 i'm starting to get slighty excited about the potential of this MMO. :)

Darth_Yuthura
11-28-2008, 01:07 PM
How many novels and storylines had been created since ROTJ? If the Star Wars universe gets old after a length of time, then why were so many new novels, stories, characters, and plots come within years of the original trilogy?

I think that the enrichment of a given period of history is what would have made KOTOR III even better. It disappoints me that they throw most of that away by going ahead 300 years. I didn't want something completely new, but and enrichment of the Galaxy at the time of Revan and the Sith war.

But this is getting nowhere. I don't expect this post to convince anyone who've already made their stand.

Tommycat
11-28-2008, 08:51 PM
How many novels and storylines had been created since ROTJ? If the Star Wars universe gets old after a length of time, then why were so many new novels, stories, characters, and plots come within years of the original trilogy?

I think that the enrichment of a given period of history is what would have made KOTOR III even better. It disappoints me that they throw most of that away by going ahead 300 years. I didn't want something completely new, but and enrichment of the Galaxy at the time of Revan and the Sith war.

But this is getting nowhere. I don't expect this post to convince anyone who've already made their stand.

I haven't made any stand. Quite frankly I am just saying that with as little info as we have it is too early to tell if they killed the story of Revan and the Exile. Quite frankly YOU are the one making a stand by saying that it has killed it with NO real proof that they killed anything. You made the claim of murder. Back it up with evidence.

Besides, leaving 300 years in between leaves plenty of room for people to come up with heroic tales following the events of TSL. If anything it preserves the time period for those that want to create their own story.

TKA-001
11-28-2008, 09:12 PM
I wish I could retract my vote. TOR has little to nothing to do with the KOTOR series and it places no restrictions on a possible KOTOR 3 (except for Revan apparently failing, but I'm not losing any sleep over that).

Sharen Thrawn
11-28-2008, 10:18 PM
I wish I could retract my vote. TOR has little to nothing to do with the KOTOR series and it places no restrictions on a possible KOTOR 3 (except for Revan apparently failing, but I'm not losing any sleep over that).

Having potentially 3 (if not more) of the characters from the original KOTOR games and the main villian introduced for the first time in The Sith Lords is not a little to no connection.

Robb Stark
12-03-2008, 01:42 PM
Many KotOR fans upset that they are apparently being robbed of the opportunity to participate in the conclusion of a story they had been a part of for two-thirds of the telling. Instead they will be told the conclusion through one medium or another. As a property LA and Bioware have the right to do with it as they wish, yet I don't think there should be anything suprising that there are many fans of the SPRPG series upset with it.

I am surprised though that people believe that TOR won't provide information regarding what that conclusion was, particularly given that thousands of years of Star Wars history revolve around the conflict between the Jedi and the Sith. In a game world as massive and detailed as an MMO should be, it's inconceivable to me that the events following TSL won't be given a massive amount of treatment in in-game lore.

Just because 99% of MMO players skip through quest text, NPC text, NPC chatter, and other lore-related material in favor of making their toons as uber as possible as quickly as possible doesn't mean that lore doesn't exist. World of Warcraft, for example, has hundreds, even thousands of years of (often invented as-needed) lore as a basis for the content in the game, whether included directly or as "background" for characters, quests, and locations. If TOR expects to be the marvel of a MMO world that Star Wars could and should be, it MUST be based on and include substantial information from the period since TSL. Furthermore, this isn't truly an ancient civlization we're talking about here where events three-hundred years past might as well be from a fictional epic poem...the Star Wars universe is riddled with people or groups with the means and drive to record and preserve history, and the Republic itself is a monument to historical continuity.

What happens to Revan and Exile and their quest to find and stop (or join?) the threat in the Unknown Regions will be addressed in TOR, IMO, at least to the point that a player will have a good idea how any subsequently produced single-player KotOR III ends before they create their character (if they've played TOR). If, indeed, the threat is the same Sith Empire being dealt with by the Republic in TOR--something that seems to be implied by Bioware and LA--"endgame" content will almost necessitate that the means of their success or failure be addressed in some fashion for players who "beat the game" (ie, progress through all plot-based content). Unless, of course, Revan and Exile become utterly irrelevant to the Star Wars story after TSL, which would be a different sort of disgrace all by itself.

Anyway, the problem as I see it isn't that TOR won't conclude the KotOR series--it almost certainly will include a conlcusion to that story in some fashion--it's that the player had originally been an intimate part of that story unfolding and an MMO set 300 years later takes that out of their hands.

The really upsetting thing to me will be when, five years from now, LA tries to put out a single-player KotOR III. IMO the point of the 300-year gap was first a shameless attempt to pass TOR off to KotOR fans as a continuation of the KotOR saga in order to secure a "fanbase" for their MMO, and second to allow a period substantial enough that a KotOR III covering a few months or years could be told to milk even more money out of the same story, except that the story of such a KotOR III will be constrained by both KotOR I and II and TOR, which IMO is a recipe for story-telling disaster. The conlusion will already be known, such that a KotOR III would amount to gooshy details or "fanfic." Basing a story on past events but leaving oneself the opportunity to tell it wherever it goes generally yields much better results than trying to match up specific events of a story with what will happen in the near future--witness the Star Wars prequels.

As an aside, characterizing everybody who wanted a "proper" single-player conclusion to the KotOR series as fanboyz only interested in Revan and Exile kicking arse and seeing all the old party NPCs survive and pwning the True Sith or whatever is extremely unfair. Many of us wanted a thoughtful story that unfolded in an exciting and entertaining fashion as we participated in it first-hand with our player-character, regardless of the fates of the characters we have come to know.

TKA-001
12-03-2008, 03:07 PM
characterizing everybody who wanted a "proper" single-player conclusion to the KotOR series as fanboyz only interested in Revan and Exile kicking arse and seeing all the old party NPCs survive and pwning the True Sith or whatever is extremely unfair.
When you add three to five, you get eight. It doesn't have to be fair to be [mostly] true.

Darth_Yuthura
12-03-2008, 10:44 PM
Darth Yuthura, your poll is hardly unbiassed. There was no possible alternative answer. Your poll has only "Yes it killed the story", "I don't mind that it killed the story," and "what story give me gameplay." To be a fair poll, you have to have Yes, No, Not sure.

Then am I to assume that you chose not to take part in this 'biassed' poll? If I were just spouting off for nothing, then this thread would have died out a long time ago. I'm not trying to be a nuisance, but for some reason, people keep posting on this thread and it's not just me.

If anyone is discontent with my biassed poll, then by all means, don't complain about a thread that you chose to keep viewing. This isn't me being pushy... I don't force anything upon people who choose to keep posting on this thread.

True_Avery
12-03-2008, 10:59 PM
People may be posting in this thread, but that same logic loops back to you.

Why post in a forum about a game you hate and will never buy?

Tommycat
12-05-2008, 08:51 AM
Then am I to assume that you chose not to take part in this 'biassed' poll? If I were just spouting off for nothing, then this thread would have died out a long time ago. I'm not trying to be a nuisance, but for some reason, people keep posting on this thread and it's not just me.

If anyone is discontent with my biassed poll, then by all means, don't complain about a thread that you chose to keep viewing. This isn't me being pushy... I don't force anything upon people who choose to keep posting on this thread.
The problem is that you are using that poll to back up your claim. If you are using a poll to back up your claim it should be free of bias, and offer real alternatives. I could make a poll and use it to say people like wife beating if I word it correctly.

This thread is in a forum dedicated to a game I am interested in. Yer dang right I'll post in it even if only to provide the other opinion. And actually you are spouting off for nothing. but the thread doesn't die because there IS disagreement. Threads that have a consensus generally get ignored or have simple posts that say "QFE" in them.

glovemaster
12-05-2008, 09:52 AM
A KotOR 3 RPG would easily be better than some KotOR-not-so-"KotOR"-because-its-300-years-later-so-its-just-"tOR" MMO.
I'm not expecting a fantastic storyline, George Lucas continues to beat his own franchise with a hammer, and squeeze all the blood he can from it that all they can do now is set something a few thousand years ago where no one has invented anything else. <_< I guess its better than SWG where they just plonked it between Ep4 and 6. :xp:

Force Unleashed tipped the boat for crap Star Wars storylines and at the same time set the standard for most amazing gameplay ever seen for any Star Wars RPG. I couldn't care less what Bioware come out with as a storyline because its gonna be pretty lame anyway.

If Bioware can at least pull gameplay off then it'll be a moderate success for me :p

TKA-001
12-05-2008, 03:16 PM
Force Unleashed tipped the boat for crap Star Wars storylines and
I think I just lost a brain cell. Say what you want about TFU's quality, but if you seriously think it's among the worst Star Wars has to offer, you need to get things in perspective (reading a Traviss novel or one of the LOTF books would be a good way).

DarthJacen
12-05-2008, 03:44 PM
I think I just lost a brain cell. Say what you want about TFU's quality, but if you seriously think it's among the worst Star Wars has to offer, you need to get things in perspective (reading a Traviss novel or one of the LOTF books would be a good way).

Hey! I liked Legacy of the Force. Even though, they killed off most of my favorite characters of Luke Skywalker's Jedi Order, it was still a nice series to read.

glovemaster
12-06-2008, 04:44 AM
I think I just lost a brain cell. Say what you want about TFU's quality, but if you seriously think it's among the worst Star Wars has to offer, you need to get things in perspective (reading a Traviss novel or one of the LOTF books would be a good way).
I think TFU was far from the worst story, but after playing TFU I'm not expecting brilliant storylines from Star Wars now.

Darth_Yuthura
12-07-2008, 04:18 PM
I guess that I was just hoping for a conclusion to TSL that had at least some effort to it. I don't think dropping everything and going 300 years later is much of a conclusion to me.

TFU endings were both bad because the secret apprentice dies or becomes a new Vader. The cannon ending would have been much better if it had an ending that didn't involve facing Vader and the Emperor because those are impossible odds. It would be better if these SW stories didn't always have the fate of the Galaxy resting with the Hero. Scale it down a bit!

TKA-001
12-10-2008, 10:59 PM
I guess that I was just hoping for a conclusion to TSL that had at least some effort to it. I don't think dropping everything and going 300 years later is much of a conclusion to me.
That's true, because TOR is not intended to be a conclusion to TSL, and criticizing this MMO for not doing that is like criticizing an archer for being a poor fencer.

TFU endings were both bad because the secret apprentice dies or becomes a new Vader. The cannon ending would have been much better if it had an ending that didn't involve facing Vader and the Emperor because those are impossible odds. It would be better if these SW stories didn't always have the fate of the Galaxy resting with the Hero. Scale it down a bit!
See, this sort of lack of imagination is the reason I don't read most fan fiction. Nobody can ever think of anything original. I admit I'm somewhat surprised that you complain that the endings were too epic - everyone else I've heard complains that Galen should have survived both endings; that he should have gone into hiding to fight another day in the light ending, and killed both Darth Sidious and Darth Vader and become the next Emperor in the dark ending. Needless to say, both of these ideas are absurdly fanboyish garbage, because winning and surviving has happened in every single other light side ending LA has ever done, and killing the main villain and becoming Prince of the Universe (or whatever) has happened in every single other dark side ending LA has ever done.

Both TFU endings are the best endings Lucasarts has ever done, by default because they were actually original. Every past Star Wars game with more than one ending has suffered from KOTOR Ending Syndrome (and that's assuming that KOTOR can be said to have an ending), and I admit I expected nothing different in TFU's case, but I must say I was delighted when I realized that TFU was a game with endings that not only would actually be good, but good whether the player wanted it or not.

Why is the light side ending good? Because Galen dies, killed by Darth Sidious because Sidious is far stronger than him, and doing what is right never comes without a sacrifice. Simple as that. Much better than the trash I expected it to be. You say that the story shouldn't have had Galen fight Sidious and Vader. Who should he have had to fight instead, some other villain that was never heard of before? Besides, if the odds of Galen's survival weren't virtually impossible, what would that say about his courage?

In fact, I dare say the dark side ending was far better than the light one. A number of people could have guessed that Galen would sacrifice himself in the good ending, but nobody expected anything in the evil ending other than Galen becoming the next Emperor of the galaxy (which is retarded for a multitude of reasons, and I'm not even counting the fact that Galen wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell against Sidious in a real fight) - when the player first sees Galen turn and attack Sidious instead of Kota, they're surprised that Sidious blocks it, but still probably expect a final boss fight with the Emperor. Do they get it? No. Sidious blasts him with his trademark *****-slap lightning and throws him through a window. The player is still thinking "I still get one chance at defeating the Emperor, right?" And when the player sees Sidious grab that ship and throw it at Galen, they think he dies. Seeing the character die like that in and of itself is a major mind-**** when you expected something completely different.

When the player realizes that the story isn't quite over yet and the scene changes to the same room where Vader was reconstructed, that's when the real mind-**** takes place: the player forgot that because Vader died, Sidious needs an apprentice - whether the apprentice is willing or not. This forms the most badass dark side ending in the history of Star Wars - and it's not because of the brilliant irony that as a result of his greed and wrath Galen is now far worse off than he could ever have imagined himself being, nor is it because of how it undeniably drives home the fact that Galen never stood a chance against Sidious. It's not even because it shows what evil is rewarded with. It's the best ending Lucasarts ever made for a game such as this because it was not only completely unexpected, but also logical.

Of course, almost nobody even realized any of the above, and even fewer people cared - the community wanted the canned light and dark side endings that they had seen in all of the previous LA games to be in TFU, also. Simply put, the community at large didn't want a good ending.

As for you complaining about the scale of the whole thing, you're making the same mistake here as you are about TOR not finishing TSL's story - just as TOR is not supposed to finish TSL, TFU is not supposed to be smaller in scale. You're criticizing the story for being itself, not for doing anything wrong.

HK-42
12-10-2008, 11:18 PM
<snip>

Here Here. I think the TFU endings were amazing and original. Also since this IS a mmo, it will be a very long storyline to keep the game going. Probably multiple storylines in quests to defeat the sith or jedi. MMOs are typically very long games.

TKA-001
12-10-2008, 11:19 PM
Ehh, sorry about the essay. Couldn't help myself.

HK-42
12-10-2008, 11:22 PM
Ehh, sorry about the essay. Couldn't help myself.

It was very moving:D

Darth_Yuthura
12-11-2008, 09:32 PM
TFU at least required some effort. Anyone could just turn chaos into more chaos. I could literally make a TSL conclusion that is better than what Lucasarts has done. Yes, I don mean 'literally' in its proper tense.

They didn't create and original or even an unorthadox conclusion... they did nothing at all. Anyone and everyone could do that.

TKA-001
12-11-2008, 10:04 PM
I could literally make a TSL conclusion that is better than what Lucasarts has done
I very much doubt that.

I could literally make a TSL conclusion that is better than what Lucasarts has done.
You ignore the fact that they didn't create a TSL conclusion, nor did they even intend to.