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GarfieldJL
12-04-2008, 03:45 PM
I actually stumbled on this by accident when searching for information on another topic. What I found was an interesting read (and this is from 2005).
Anti-Defamation League (http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/speech_palacio.asp)

Incident 1: Spain
Europe has a shamefully long list of recent anti-Semitic acts. To give you an idea of what is going on in the "Old World", I could start with examples from around Europe, but I want to highlight something that happened in my country a few months ago because Spaniards believe there is no anti-Semitism in Spain.

The Town Hall of Oleiros, in the northern province of Galicia, has an international cooperation program to aid development in the Third World. To raise money for this worth cause, the mayor decided to sell t-shirts. Unfortunately, these were not just any t-shirts. One t-shirt showed Ariel Sharon as a dragon devouring the bloody corpses of Palestinian children with George Bush riding him like a cowboy on a horse.

The Mayor, apparently believing his message too subtle, decided to post on the illuminated outdoor municipal message board the following: "Let´s stop the animal, Sharon the assassin, stop the neo-Nazi."

Interestingly, the town´s international cooperation program states its actions should favour human rights: apparently, fighting anti-Semitism doesn´t fall into that category.

The Sharon t-shirt is no longer on sale. However, if you are feeling anti-patriotic today you can still visit Oleiros´ webpage and buy a t-shirt depicting the US flag as a roll of toilet paper and urging everyone to use it.

Incident 2: Spain
Unfortunately, this in not the only incident in Spain: Barcelona City Hall placed a Star of David side-by-side with a swastika on the official web page, later removing it but without offering any apologies or explanations; in June 2004 a plaque honouring victims of the Holocaust in Montjic Cemetary in Barcelona was vandalized for the fourth time since 2002.


And that's just the start of the piece.

jrrtoken
12-04-2008, 03:52 PM
I don't understand what this has to do with the far-left or the UN, just a bunch of closet fascists from Spain. Either way, I believe that this mayor should be tried for hate crimes, or something to that extent.

Det. Bart Lasiter
12-04-2008, 04:11 PM
ooh i love it when people equate not agreeing with everything israel does with antisemitism. i admit the second quote you posted was over the line, but sharon isn't exactly an angel and israel isnt entirely innocent when it comes to killing civilians. also the israelis found that sharon bore "personal responsibility" for the Qibya Massacre since soldiers under his command killed around 70 palestinians and blew up a bunch of houses, a school, and a mosque. so yeah he's kind of a horrible person because he actually did kill a bunch of palestinians.


nice job weaseling 'UN' and 'the far left' into the title of a thread about a town in spain.

GarfieldJL
12-04-2008, 04:13 PM
I don't understand what this has to do with the far-left or the UN, just a bunch of closet fascists from Spain. Either way, I believe that this mayor should be tried for hate crimes, or something to that extent.

Keep reading, there is a lot more than what I quoted in the first post.

Incident 3: Great Britain
In 2003, Labour MP Tam Dalyell decried the influence of "a Jewish cabal" on British foreign policy reinforcing the theme of Jews controlling the world.

Incident 4: France
On Saturday December 18, 2004 French Holocaust denier Professor Robert Faurisson former lecturer of Lyon University, gave an interview to Iran's Mehr News Agency about France's decision to ban Al-Manar TV:

MNA: "Actually, France doesn't respect the rights of its citizens, as it has banned the hijab (Islamic headscarf) in public schools. How do you assess that?"

Faurisson: "Because Jews, in a certain way, are used to treating the French as they treat Palestinians. The difference is that Palestinians refuse to obey the Jews, whereas the French obey the Jews, once more because of the Big Lie of the alleged 'Holocaust,' in which unfortunately they seem to believe…The alleged 'Holocaust' of the Jews is the sword and the shield of the Jewish tyranny all over the world. Destroy it" (Middle East Media Research Institute, 20 December 2004)


The article continues:
This new anti-Semitism´s tactic in Europe is the systematic and heartless banalization of the Holocaust. The opinion makers, the intellectuals, from Nobel Prize winner José Saramago to the average journalist, don't think twice about accusing Israeli leaders of genocide or Hilter-like practices or of comparing Auschwitz and the prisons in Iraq. Such wording brings the Holocaust down to the level of just "another killing" and not one of human history's worst atrocities. Doing this, frees guilty consciences without addressing its underlying problems. Everyone is free to forget.

And in forgetting springs prejudice. Together with this banalization, the European Intelligentsia engages in anti-Israeli practices far out of proportion with any logical criticism of Sharon´s policies. Israel´s faults, mistakes, unlawful acts are magnified, Palestinian ones reduced. Israeli army attacks are splashed on the front pages while Palestinian terrorism tucked away and covertly justified if reported on at all. Just look at the veneration showered on Yasir Arafat in the European media after his death. There was barely a word of criticism. The effect of this bias is an information deficit, especially as it relates to how the violence and the Middle East conflict is analyzed and transmitted to the public. Israel's presumed guilt is always looming in the background. The burden of proof is inverted, Israel must justify its actions and explain itself before a jury that has often made up its mind in advance.

jrrtoken
12-04-2008, 04:18 PM
:words:Then what does this have to do with the "far-left" and the UN? All that you have shown are isolated incidents of anti-Semitism that has nothing to do with supposed liberals.

GarfieldJL
12-04-2008, 04:21 PM
Then what does this have to do with the "far-left" and the UN? All that you have shown are isolated incidents of anti-Semitism that has nothing to do with supposed liberals.

Officials in Public Office and recipients of the Nobel Peace Prize are not isolated incidents.

jrrtoken
12-04-2008, 04:24 PM
Officials in Public Office and recipients of the Nobel Peace Prize are not isolated incidents.Please don't tell me that you think that there's a massive anti-Jew conspiracy in Europe...

And you still haven't answered my question yet. What does this have to do with the "far-left"?

Det. Bart Lasiter
12-04-2008, 04:31 PM
ooh i love it when people equate not agreeing with everything israel does with antisemitism.quoting myself because this bears repeating.

Officials in Public Office and recipients of the Nobel Peace Prize are not isolated incidents.yes

they kinda are.

that article named like 3 people ON AN ENTIRE CONTINENT that made antisemitic remarks. oh and one of them actually made a valid criticism of ariel sharon so more like 2.5. as for european newspapers criticizing israel, i'm guessing the adl will have to convince israel to stop killing palestinian civilians or get some tougher skin, since killing civilians wont be cool again until 2015 :/

GarfieldJL
12-04-2008, 05:47 PM
Please don't tell me that you think that there's a massive anti-Jew conspiracy in Europe...


Europe has a history of Anti-sematism, and it isn't only the Germans that have that history. The French among others have that legacy as well.


And you still haven't answered my question yet. What does this have to do with the "far-left"?

Uh it's in the article.

Austria has "no specialised body to record incidents, and a lack of consistency in recording complaints of racial discrimination in general and antisemitism in particular." Extreme right wing groupsī publications are monitored, but as we saw, New anti-Semitism is becoming a left-wing phenomena. Authorities need to adjust.

That is one part of the article, there are others.

Also in the article:
The majority of E.U. governments -Austria, Belgium, Greece, Spain, Ireland, Luxembourg, Italy, Portugal and Finland- conduct no systematic monitoring of Anti-Semitic incidents at all.
So the lack of reports is in no way an indication that they don't take place, apparently these countries apparently don't document it or they just leave that part out of the report.

that article named like 3 people ON AN ENTIRE CONTINENT that made antisemitic remarks.

No, they just didn't go into a game of naming every single individual or in some cases they don't know who did it.

oh and one of them actually made a valid criticism of ariel sharon so more like 2.5. as for european newspapers criticizing israel, i'm guessing the adl will have to convince israel to stop killing palestinian civilians or get some tougher skin, since killing civilians wont be cool again until 2015 :/

Actually, I haven't gotten to newspapers and Human Rights Watch yet. Several newpapers were utterly humiliated here due to the bloggers I like to use as sources, in fact those bloggers forced Reuters among others to admit to using doctored photographs.

The first image was discovered on August 5, 2006 when blogger Charles Johnson of Little Green Footballs wrote that the first image "shows blatant evidence of manipulation" (Adobe Photoshop clone stamp), Reuters "killed" the 'photograph' and released a statement that stated Hajj claimed to not have intentionally altered the photo but was trying to remove "dust marks". Reuters did not stand by the photographer and admitted that Hajj had altered it, saying "photo editing software was improperly used on this image. A corrected version will immediately follow this advisory. We are sorry for any inconvenience."--Wikipedia Reutergate article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reutergate)

Astor
12-04-2008, 05:53 PM
Europe has a history of Anti-sematism, and it isn't only the Germans that have that history. The French among others have that legacy as well.

I genuinely hope you aren't trying to paint all Europeans as Anti-Semites - because i'm incredibly offended if you are.

And one comment from one MP isn't indicative of Anti-semitism in the UK - and I think it's reaching at best to try and prove so.

GarfieldJL
12-04-2008, 06:14 PM
I genuinely hope you aren't trying to paint all Europeans as Anti-Semites - because i'm incredibly offended if you are.


I'm not trying to paint all Europeans as that, but there is a pretty bad problem in Europe. I am going to state flat out that a fair number of the European media have been caught at using questionable sources to try to condemn Israel in the public's eye. Then they go and not report stories that are heinous because it condemns the Palestinians.


And one comment from one MP isn't indicative of Anti-semitism in the UK - and I think it's reaching at best to try and prove so.

I haven't gotten to other sources yet. Which I am getting to now.

Britain suffered the sharpest rise in anti-semitic attacks of any country last year, and British press coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a leading cause, according to an Israeli government report. -- The Guardian, January 25, 2005 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2005/jan/25/raceandreligion.television)

Then there is another 2005 article from I'm going to say a blog: aish.com (http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/UK_Anti-_Semitism.asp)

Then there is from the a paper in 2002
The Chief Rabbi warned last night that incidents of anti-Semitism are rising.


The Chief Rabbi warned last night that incidents of anti-Semitism are rising.

Rabbi Professor Jonathan Sacks said in a lecture to peers and MPs in London that the phenomenon was on the rise once more – particularly since 11 September – and "someone has to sound an early warning.

"We have engaged throughout Europe for the past half century in one of the most intensive education campaigns in all history – Holocaust education, interfaith dialogue, conferences on racism – and now we are seeing it return, despite everything," he said.
--The Independent, March 1, 2002 (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/chief-rabbi-warns-of-rise-in-antisemitism-652999.html)

But wait there is more:

First, the idea of singling out Israel for a special boycott in a world in which academics are murdered, imprisoned, disappeared and censored is a reflection of a double standard so severe that it can be explained only by bigotry. And the excuse provided by supporters of the boycott exacerbates the problem.
--'There is more anti-Semitism in the UK than there is in Germany' (http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storyCode=209241&sectioncode=26)

Another Blog I know they are pro-Israel but they raise some valid points including the BBC losing a court case. http://www.honestreporting.co.uk/articles/critiques/The_UK_Media_and_Anti-Semitism.asp

Really unlike the Guardian and other news outlets, I think the fact that terrorists tried to use a 12 year old as an unwitting delivery device for a bomb is news: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2004/apr/01/bbc.israel
That article demonstrates my point rather well.

I'm currently sorting through about 130,000 google hits.

Det. Bart Lasiter
12-04-2008, 06:21 PM
No, they just didn't go into a game of naming every single individual or in some cases they don't know who did it.and they also didnt go into a game of showing trends of major newspapers, magazines, television shows, radio stations, or any other form of media consistently making antisemitic comments.

Actually, I haven't gotten to newspapers and Human Rights Watch yet. Several newpapers were utterly humiliated here due to the bloggers I like to use as sources, in fact those bloggers forced Reuters among others to admit to using doctored photographs.

--Wikipedia Reutergate article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reutergate)yes yes, we all know you hate every news source that doesnt report what you want to hear, however adnan hajj was fired and all of his photos, doctored or not, were removed from reuters' archives.


also it'd be nice if you could explain what this thread's point is and why you named it as you did, since right now i'm just assuming it's some sort of thinly veiled attempt at calling the un and liberals antisemites. hey, tell you what, you tell me what state you live in, and i'll find conservatives there who've made antisemitic comments, that way we can both have fun calling each other antisemites.

GarfieldJL
12-04-2008, 06:30 PM
and they also didnt go into a game of showing trends of major newspapers, magazines, television shows, radio stations, or any other form of media consistently making antisemitic comments.


It is the transcript from a speech, do you know how boring it would be to listen to someone reading through the equivalent of a phone book.


yes yes, we all know you hate every news source that doesnt report what you want to hear, however adnan hajj was fired and all of his photos, doctored or not, were removed from reuters' archives.


They were removed after the bloggers blasted reuters for using doctored photos, and these are the same bloggers I have used in the past when I brought up this very incident. The photographs were so blatantly doctored, that anyone whom has worked with photoshop in the past could probably have been able to tell, and a good percentage of people here could have done a better job in the span of a few minutes.


also it'd be nice if you could explain what this thread's point is and why you named it as you did, since right now i'm just assuming it's some sort of thinly veiled attempt at calling the un and liberals antisemites. hey, tell you what, you tell me what state you live in, and i'll find conservatives there who've made antisemitic comments, that way we can both have fun calling each other antisemites.

This is actually an aside from a topic that got brought up in The Obama Cabinet Appointments (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=193619). Figured I'd move it over here especially after stumbling across the first article I mentioned in this thread.

Det. Bart Lasiter
12-04-2008, 06:56 PM
It is the transcript from a speech, do you know how boring it would be to listen to someone reading through the equivalent of a phone book.thanks for letting me know i was trying to read it in haiku form.

They were removed after the bloggers blasted reuters for using doctored photos, and these are the same bloggers I have used in the past when I brought up this very incident. The photographs were so blatantly doctored, that anyone whom has worked with photoshop in the past could probably have been able to tell, and a good percentage of people here could have done a better job in the span of a few minutes.i'm sure everyone here is well aware of your love of little green footballs and how their ability to detect shopped pictures proves reuters is antisemitic.

This is actually an aside from a topic that got brought up in The Obama Cabinet Appointments (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=193619). Figured I'd move it over here especially after stumbling across the first article I mentioned in this thread.yeah but what are you trying to prove with it? that there are antisemites in europe? yeah, there are, they're pretty much everywhere, just like every other group of anti-<group of people> idiots are.

GarfieldJL
12-04-2008, 07:06 PM
thanks for letting me know i was trying to read it in haiku form.

Well you were the one asking about why there were so few names being mentioned.


i'm sure everyone here is well aware of your love of little green footballs and how their ability to detect shopped pictures proves reuters is antisemitic.

Uh, considering they consistantly used these photographs and were caught each time kinda indicates they were in a rush to condemn Israel.


yeah but what are you trying to prove with it? that there are antisemites in europe? yeah, there are, they're pretty much everywhere, just like every other group of anti-<group of people> idiots are.

However, you need to look at where it is centered, we're seeing it in Europe's acadamia, and news media. Which is far different than just a small group of people from off the street. Acadamia is what teaches youngsters, and if they are teaching them to hate Jewish People, then what would those kids do when they grow up, odds are they will also hate Jewish People. The media then goes and reinforces that belief.

jonathan7
12-04-2008, 07:54 PM
Garfield, have you ever been to the UK? Because I can guarantee you that anti-Semitism isn't prevalent here at all; people of Arab and Asian backgrounds face far more racisim than the Jewish community. The BNP ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party ) targets, Africans, Arabs and Asians far more than it does Jews. Fact, and anyone that attempts arguing that is clueless about the UK - end of. As a final note, part of my current charity work/job/course; I am currently doing an inter-culture studies course, you may want to listen to me, over your bloggers as to the state of the UK; especially considering my course concentrates on minorities, understanding them, and how they are treated.

Det. Bart Lasiter
12-04-2008, 07:59 PM
Uh, considering they consistantly used these photographs and were caught each time kinda indicates they were in a rush to condemn Israel.what. they used the pictures, found out they were edited, then removed them, fired mr hajj and removed his photos from their archives.

However, you need to look at where it is centered, we're seeing it in Europe's acadamia, and news media. Which is far different than just a small group of people from off the street. Acadamia is what teaches youngsters, and if they are teaching them to hate Jewish People, then what would those kids do when they grow up, odds are they will also hate Jewish People. The media then goes and reinforces that belief.alright, while we're examining things, let's take a look at the adl. they've been criticized on many occasions (by rabbis and notable authors and professors) and even admit to classifying criticism of israel as antisemitic.* they've also been accused of having a right wing bias when it comes to who they're willing to call antisemitic.*

* http://www.democracynow.org/2006/8/30/congressmember_weiner_gets_it_wrong_on , http://web.archive.org/web/20051110072600/http://www.tikkun.org/rabbi_lerner/ask_the_rabbi , noam chomsky's necessary illusions
* http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/10/01/nazi_insult/

SW01
12-04-2008, 11:16 PM
I agree with jonathan7's post. Of all hate crimes and incitements to racial hatred in the UK, anti-Semitism seems one of the least prevalent. Not that any level is acceptable, but it is far from the all-pervading epidemic implied by that speech.

Also, I would like to draw attention to the following:

'The most important step is enforcement of a complete legal framework to go after those perpetrating hate crimes, inciting others to violence. Until governments take the matter as seriously as they take other criminal activities, nothing much can be hoped for.'

This speech was given in 2005. In 2001, Parliament passed the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act. Part 5 specifically deals with Race and Religion, and modifies the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 (references in which focused mainly on racial hatred) to include specific references to religious groups, defined as 'a group of persons defined by reference to religious belief or lack of religious belief' (s.39(4)). Penalties for such were also greatly increased. This is clearly far from 'indifference' to religious hate crimes.

vanir
12-05-2008, 12:18 AM
I've got to say from a purely academic point of view, Garfield appears to have taken a piece of sensationalism and attempted to further that without an entirely independent research. This would be a debating tactic, not an academic research methodology.

The first thing you should do Garfield, is assume everything you've read is complete and utter farce. Believe that and then research its points independently. Be critical, and be skeptical.
Unless you too have an agenda.

An interesting thing is that whilst I personally note more free speech in the United States than in Europe, I note more indpendent political perspectives in Europe than in the United States. It seems whilst you're patting yourself on the back too much, you wind up not wanting to upset the apple cart.

Astor
12-05-2008, 06:07 AM
However, you need to look at where it is centered, we're seeing it in Europe's acadamia, and news media.

Oh my, you're so right. It was only yesterday that Sky News was blaming the Zionist Conspiracy for the current economic downturn, and all of the world's ills.

And I can't remember the last time I heard a politics lecturer blame someone other than the Jews. :dozey:

GarfieldJL
12-05-2008, 08:26 AM
Garfield, have you ever been to the UK? Because I can guarantee you that anti-Semitism isn't prevalent here at all; people of Arab and Asian backgrounds face far more racisim than the Jewish community.

I'm not saying it is prevalent everywhere in the United Kingdom, but it is prevalent in your country's media and acadamia. The BBC has actually lost at least one court case in that regard, I'm using news sources from the United Kingdom.

I have been finding articles from your country that directly contradict you, even from the BBC which is well known to be biased against Israel. In fact your own government views this as a problem.

The former Conservative leader, Iain Duncan Smith, who was one of the members of the panel, said the situation regarding anti-Semitic attacks was worse than he had previously believed.

"A combination of complacency and ignorance seems to be the name of the game here," he said.

"Many police forces simply keep no record of these attacks at all and therefore are unable to understand the depth or the strength of the nature of the problem.

"We found there was a very low level of prosecution seen through to their final end. It was almost as though they would shrug and leave it because it was just too difficult."
--MP's deliver anti-Semitism report, BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/5319716.stm)


The BNP ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party ) targets, Africans, Arabs and Asians far more than it does Jews. Fact, and anyone that attempts arguing that is clueless about the UK - end of.


Yeah, that explains why the UK is implimenting muslim law throughout Britain, we've had topics on this in lucasforums, I'm not blind. Fact is your country's police won't even record the attacks, your own government has said that flat out.

Welcome to the website of The Parliamentary Committee against Antisemitism.

The rising tide of antisemitism in the UK is something that deeply concerns us all. As a group of parliamentarians we recognise our responsibility to take a lead in the fight against this latest incarnation of what is surely the oldest form of hatred.

Shortly after I was elected as Chair of this committee in the autumn of 2005, I commissioned the All-Party Parliamentary Inquiry into Antisemitism in the UK. Published last year in 2006, the Inquiry Report received much coverage and was welcomed by many who share our determination to confront and defeat antisemitism in this country and beyond.

In March of this year the government published its response to the Inquiry which welcomed many of the recommendations and echoed our concern in the face of a sharp increase in incident figures and general atmosphere of hostility towards Jewish people.

The committee is now fully focused on working with government and other partners to implement these and other measures to send out the clearest of messages; intolerance will no longer be tolerated.

I hope that you find both our work and the material on this website to be of interest.

Best wishes,



John Mann MP
Chair, The Parliamentary Committee against Antisemitism
-- http://www.thepcaa.org/


As a final note, part of my current charity work/job/course; I am currently doing an inter-culture studies course, you may want to listen to me, over your bloggers as to the state of the UK; especially considering my course concentrates on minorities, understanding them, and how they are treated.

As I've said, my sources are directly questioning the integrity of the media and acadamia in the United Kingdom.


Anyways here is a story concerning a bill passed in the United States House of Representatives calling for a push to reform the United Nations because of the anti-semitism: http://www.house.gov/chabot/UNamend2005.html

"The United Nations has, for some time, been a breeding ground for the dissemination of anti-Semitic and anti-Israeli propaganda. It took 16 years to reverse a General Assembly resolution that declared Zionism to be "a form of racism and racial discrimination." And it was only reversed after considerable pressure from the United States coupled with Israel�s decision to make its participation in the Madrid Peace Conference conditional upon repeal of the resolution.

"As noted in H. Res. 282, a bipartisan resolution introduced by the distinguished Chairman of the Middle East Subcommittee, Ms. Ros-Lehtinen, and adopted in this body last week, the UN Human Rights Commission took several months to correct in its record a statement by the Syrian ambassador that Jews allegedly had killed non-Jewish children to make unleavened bread for Passover.

"If that were not enough, the President of the Human Rights Commission, in 1997, refused to challenge an assertion made by the Palestinian observer that the government of Israel had injected 300 Palestinian children with the HIV virus.

"Speaking from experience, Mr. Chairman, I can assure my colleagues of the anti-Israel activity at the UN. In 2001, I was honored to be nominated by President Bush to serve as one of two Congressional representatives to the United General Assembly � along with my colleague Mr. Faleomavega. During the year-long appointment, I traveled back and forth to New York to meet with our then-Ambassador John Negroponte and our diplomatic delegation at the U.S. -U.N. mission. On one occasion, I went to New York to participate in a special summit on children. Throughout the conference, we discussed resolutions on childhood disease, HIV-AIDS, humanitarian assistance, child trafficking, and other critical issues. Throughout the final day, our delegation trudged through the minutiae of resolutions in committee and in the plenary session. Aside from the occasional objection to a comma or a whereas from the Chinese or the French, the day passed uneventfully. Or so I thought. As I was getting ready to leave that evening, I learned from our diplomatic corps that the real battle was not fought in the committees or on the floor. It was fought behind the scenes as our American delegation successfully fought off an attempt from the Arab bloc to deny Israel its credentials to participate in the children�s summit. So much for the children.
-- http://www.house.gov/chabot/UNamend2005.html

Darth Deralia
12-05-2008, 08:28 AM
You like to blame Austria without gathering information, dont you?

1. There maybe arent specialised governmental bodies to list incidents, but many non-governmental for all minorities and they list incidents. These lists are in the media and they are objects of discussion. The most well known guy from these NGOs is Ariel Muzicant and hes very often in the media. The jewish minority is compared to its size far more powerful than the large minority groups (Turkey, eastern/southeastern Europe) and you want to tell me that Austrians are neos?

2. Right wing parties maybe get a lot of votes, but the majority of these are protest-voters or is frustrated about the non-functionating integration.

3. Every VIP who ever had contact to neos or is accused to ever had contact with neos, was and is and will be critized by the media and it will never be forgotten that someone had or could have had contact with neos.

GarfieldJL
12-05-2008, 08:42 AM
You like to blame Austria without gathering information, dont you?

I've only been quoting from articles, to be fair there are some sites that condemn the European Union in general, and say that Austria is getting a bad rap.
If You Want Evil, Look Beyond Austria (http://christianactionforisrael.org/antiholo/haider.html)

There are other articles that condemn Austria as well.


1. There maybe arent specialised governmental bodies to list incidents, but many non-governmental for all minorities and they list incidents. These lists are in the media and they are objects of discussion. The most well known guy from these NGOs is Ariel Muzicant and hes very often in the media. The jewish minority is compared to its size far more powerful than the large minority groups (Turkey, eastern/southeastern Europe) and you want to tell me that Austrians are neos?

BBC News, Haider Setback in anti-Semitism row (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1339096.stm)


2. Right wing parties maybe get a lot of votes, but the majority of these are protest-voters or is frustrated about the non-functionating integration.


What I am going after are the left wing groups, the far right nuts that are anti-semetic are usually treated as such by the media. I know there are far right nuts, most conservatives (at least in the United States) also think they are three-fries short of a happy meal, certifiably wacko. We don't see that kind of scrutiny concerning the left.


3. Every VIP who ever had contact to neos or is accused to ever had contact with neos, was and is and will be critized by the media and it will never be forgotten that someone had or could have had contact with neos.

And again to be fair, your country has been defended by some pro-Israel groups, saying that the problem is far worse in other European Countries.

I'm more concerned with the situation in the United Kingdom (at least Parliament admits there is a problem).

jonathan7
12-05-2008, 09:14 AM
All your post was, was a lesson in how not to evaluate sources.

If I thought you might change your position, I would actually bother to construct the argument counter to your post, however I doubt you will change your position, and I have an exam in 15 minutes...

I'm not saying it is prevalent everywhere in the United Kingdom, but it is prevalent in your country's media and acadamia. The BBC has actually lost at least one court case in that regard, I'm using news sources from the United Kingdom.

Please indicate at any point any evidence what so ever that anti-Semitism is wildly prevalent in either the media or academia, none of your sources shows this.

I have been finding articles from your country that directly contradict you, even from the BBC which is well known to be biased against Israel. In fact your own government views this as a problem.

I love how the BBC is biased against Israel, and then you quote a BBC article. Anyone smell the irony?

--MP's deliver anti-Semitism report, BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/5319716.stm)

Nice - I don't deny anti-Semitism happens, especially when morons respond with violence to Israel bombing the hell our of Lebanon; however that does not indicate a wide spread problem.

Yeah, that explains why the UK is implimenting muslim law throughout Britain, we've had topics on this in lucasforums, I'm not blind. Fact is your country's police won't even record the attacks, your own government has said that flat out.

ROFL - that is simply the funniest thing I have ever read on Lucas Forums - the UK is implementing Šarīʿah law? No its not, where on earth do you possibly get that impression? I'm just going to say this as its a fact; Quite frankly anyone trying to argue Šarīʿah has come through in the UK in anyway is clueless about UK legislature.

As I've said, my sources are directly questioning the integrity of the media and acadamia in the United Kingdom.

Funny how my "selective" sample of 50 + Jewish friends have never been a victim of racism (anti-Semitism). Nor do I see any media or academic agenda.

Astor
12-05-2008, 09:41 AM
Yeah, that explains why the UK is implimenting muslim law throughout Britain, we've had topics on this in lucasforums, I'm not blind. Fact is your country's police won't even record the attacks, your own government has said that flat out.

That is quite possibly the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I echo J7's comment:

:rofl:

The plans were talking about allowing Muslims to open Muslim courts - not implementing the damned system in the entire judiciary. If you'd actually done some research into it you'd have realised the absurdity of your statement.

GarfieldJL
12-05-2008, 09:48 AM
All your post was, was a lesson in how not to evaluate sources.

How not to? I've been using your own country's accepted news media as sources, some of whom I've repeatedly accused of being anti-Israel? How are they not valid sources when they have to admit about anti-semitism in your country?

I wasn't born yesterday.


If I thought you might change your position, I would actually bother to construct the argument counter to your post, however I doubt you will change your position, and I have an exam in 15 minutes...

I do change positions based on new information, however you've got a pretty big hole to dig out of considering I'm using your own government, the BBC, and other British media sources (some of whom are staunchly anti-Israel) as sources. I'm not even using the blogs at the moment.


Please indicate at any point any evidence what so ever that anti-Semitism is wildly prevalent in either the media or academia, none of your sources shows this.


http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storyCode=209241&sectioncode=26


I love how the BBC is biased against Israel, and then you quote a BBC article. Anyone smell the irony?

Sometimes even biased sources are forced to admit that there is a problem, when it is so bad even they can't turn a blind eye to it.


Nice - I don't deny anti-Semitism happens, especially when morons respond with violence to Israel bombing the hell our of Lebanon; however that does not indicate a wide spread problem.

Wrong, because the study's data was from before the 2006 Israeli-Lebanon War. I have been deliberately trying to use articles from before that war so people couldn't use that as an excuse.



ROFL - that is simply the funniest thing I have ever read on Lucas Forums - the UK is implementing Šarīʿah law? No its not, where on earth do you possibly get that impression? I'm just going to say this as its a fact; Quite frankly anyone trying to argue Šarīʿah has come through in the UK in anyway is clueless about UK legislature.

I never said that you did impliment it, I'm saying it was flying around your parliament to impliment it or something or other, I'll go dig up the topic to check what all was said more in depth.



Funny how my "selective" sample of 50 + Jewish friends have never been a victim of racism (anti-Semitism). Nor do I see any media or academic agenda.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Balen_Report

No anti-Semitism huh?

The plans were talking about allowing Muslims to open Muslim courts - not implementing the damned system in the entire judiciary. If you'd actually done some research into it you'd have realised the absurdity of your statement.


Do we see the UK making it so Hindus get to have Hindu law, or Jewish people be subject to Jewish law? Seriously, that is favoring one religion over any other religion.

SW01
12-05-2008, 10:41 AM
I never said that you did impliment it, I'm saying it was flying around your parliament to impliment it or something or other, I'll go dig up the topic to check what all was said more in depth.

Nope. Sharia 'courts' are being permitted as arbitrators between Muslim parties. They are being, and have been, permitted to rule on issues of Muslim civil law, in the same way as the Beth Din (see below)

Do we see the UK making it so Hindus get to have Hindu law, or Jewish people be subject to Jewish law? Seriously, that is favoring one religion over any other religion.

Yes, we do.

BBC: 'Jewish courts are in daily use in Britain, and have been for centuries.

British Jews, particularly the orthodox, will frequently turn to their own religious courts, the Beth Din, to resolve civil disputes, covering issues as diverse as business and divorce. '

The Beth Din also takes care of a multitude of Jewish community affairs, many of which never give rise to any dispute: the dates of the Sabbath, kosher certification of caterers and bakers, medical ethics for Jewish patients and religious conversions. But it is in the areas of divorce and litigation that the Beth Din acts as a court in the western sense.'

BBC Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7233040.stm)

vanir
12-05-2008, 11:08 AM
I'm noticing a real cultural divide between Americanism and Empire here, which goes back to how government is performed very, very differently between the US and British Parliamentary systems.

Point one: it is not un-Constitutional to favour a religion under Parliamentary legislation. The establishment of Parliament was by favouring one religion over others, moreso at any time Parliamentary members as a whole feel it is suitable to the public good to show a particular religion some favour, it is compelled to do so. This is simply how our two democracies are very different from each other. One should take note of the current climate against terrorism and the common marginalisation among uneducated social groups towards Muslims in general for the pain of select extremists. To discuss some ideas is Parliament representing the best intentions of the general public as a whole without marginalisation or violence, that is, the intentions of democracy.

Point two: given the nature of Parliament particularly in Parliamentary nations the newsmedia and media organisations play no part in academia. There are rules about what journalists may or may not do and say, again for the best intentions of the public good. To an extent you might consider newsmedia in these countries to be representative of certain governing ideals, though individual media organisations will have leanings towards individual Parties. Powers of media influence are frequently a Parliamentary concern, which makes them an exceedingly poor academic source for any kind of material argument. Sometimes, they honestly just make things up because it has something to do with a present governing legislative agenda (typically these are presented with statistics and public polls, whenever seeing these in media the politically and intellectually independent beware).

Point three: the United States works upon a completely different system of governing due for the most part to its independent Constitution (the separation of Church and State, a matter which still exists in Parliamentary nations by definition). Newsmedia is a little more independent, but also a little more prone to political corruption and individual agendas. Mostly newsmedia is a lot more like a public sounding board with all the good and bad elements of American-democracy.


So...you don't really approach media in a Parliamentary nation the same way that you do in the United States. It is no part of any argument. Nobody even takes it very seriously at all. It is a government forum, designed to inform or incite from such a perspective.


Point five: most important of all is how Parliamentary government works, which would not even be allowed in the United States. MP's are all in it together. But call each other...ahem, bad names. That's how the system works. Quite often a political argument, designed to promote or disallow a legislative proposal is performed with obscenities or ridiculous and irrelevent allusions. The idea is that, well that idea wasn't very popular.
So newsmedia, in reporting directly will often represent political arguments within Parliament relating to legislative proposals by course. It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the state of the nation, for the man on the street. It's just politics and something for the armchair experts to talk about in their loungerooms.
That's the system. Welcome to the Empire.

GarfieldJL
12-05-2008, 03:38 PM
Nope. Sharia 'courts' are being permitted as arbitrators between Muslim parties. They are being, and have been, permitted to rule on issues of Muslim civil law, in the same way as the Beth Din (see below)

Okay after viewing your source I stand corrected on that point, thanks for that little tidbit of information, learn something new everyday.


Anyways to add to my comments about how there is demonstratible anti-semitism in the UK. First as I've stated earlier I deliberately used articles where the information was collected before 2006. However, since jonathan7, was kind enough to bring up the Israeli/Lebanon conflict of 2006.

Myth: Israel was completely unjustified in their attacks on Lebanon.

Fact: In all actuality, Israel was completely justified both legally and morally based on international law, when Hezbollah abducted Israeli soldiers from Israel. Compounding the justification was Hezbollah firing a bunch of rockets into Israel with the intent to kill Israelis. Because Lebanon's military could not or would not do anything to stop Hezbollah, nor did they act to try to rescue the abducted Israelis, it amounts largely to the same thing as an act of war.

Israel isn't the size of Canada, it is an extremely small country and they don't have the luxery of a lot of empty territory in which the population of Grizzly Bear is higher than the population of people. A few cities in Israel were actually taking hits from those rockets and while those rockets were inaccurate, the fact that we're talking hundreds to thousands of these things being fired into Israel, the people of Israel were lucky that not very many people were killed, there could have been a lot more casualties if the roll of the dice of fate had ended up differently.

Myth: Israel was deliberately targetting civilians, ambulences, etc.

Fact: As I've pointed out before concerning the doctored photos from the Israeli/Lebanon conflict, the evidence used to condemn Israel turned out to be a bunch of "manufactured" evidence (would be similar to planting evidence). Further the ambulence incident despite what Human Rights Watch claimed, the damage done could not have been caused by a missile. There is also evidence that Hezbollah was using locations where civilians were located to fire rockets into Israel, in other words using children as human shields.

Because of that, the civilian casualties would be rather high, but it would not be the fault of Israel in that regard. Personally I would have loved for Israel to have been able to send in a crack commando team that would have gone in killed the terrorists, rescued the abducted Israelis and gotten out. But this isn't a video game, that kind of raid had next to absolutely no chance of success. It is easy to sit in another country and blame Israel for being heavy-handed, but fact is when you're attacked by someone using something that could potentially kill you, you'd use deadly force to defend yourself.

---------

I could really go on and on about this topic all day, because I did an entire report on the media coverage of the 2006 conflict for a report on media bias. The blogs played a key role of exposing the major media outlets' lack of objectivity, and forced them to admit it.

I deliberately used data concerning anti-sematism in the UK where the data was collected before 2006, (as much as possible anyways) so there wouldn't be a legitimate argument when people started saying "it's due to Israel bombing Lebanon". Fact is, there is anti-sematism in the UK and it is more common than many in the UK believe. In fact Times Higher Education (http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storyCode=209241&sectioncode=26), says flat out that there is more anti-sematism in the United Kingdom than in Germany.

Det. Bart Lasiter
12-05-2008, 03:43 PM
well, thanks for your report on how there are antisemitic people my eyes have really been opened thanks.

GarfieldJL
12-05-2008, 03:46 PM
well, thanks for your report on how there are antisemitic people my eyes have really been opened thanks.

That wasn't the sole purpose, of this topic, because this is an extremely prevalent problem (much more than many people believe) and part of it is acadamia and the media. I haven't seriously delved into how the UN is anti-sematic.

jonathan7
12-05-2008, 04:08 PM
Anyways to add to my comments about how there is demonstratible anti-semitism in the UK.

I'm sure I could show that there is demonstrative anti-semitism in the US - what's your point? How about I point out how a much larger proportion of Americans have been calling for Obama to be assassinated, care to do anything about that? Besides a small minority of incidence is irrelevant, especially when Arab-aphobia has been much more prevalent in western countries after 9/11

First as I've stated earlier I deliberately used articles where the information was collected before 2006. However, since jonathan7, was kind enough to bring up the Israeli/Lebanon conflict of 2006.

Myth: Israel was completely unjustified in their attacks on Lebanon.

Who said anything about unjustified - it was just a stupid move, here's why; all Israel achived was the greatest recruitment drive Hezbollah will ever get, as well as destabilizing a fragile government that was just getting rid of Syrian and Iranian influences. By bombing as much as they did Israel has created a much bigger problem later on for itself by the number of young Lebanese who will become terrorists because their homes were attacked. The UK, could of reacted in a similar way to Iran kidnapping our sailors (the failure of command to act not withstanding) after they were taken we could of responded with force but, didn't as it wasn't worth the escalation.

Here's a big massive fact to hit you with, they've been acting the way you say for the last 4,000 years in the region, and look what its done. Israel isn't in the right, and neither are Hezbollah or the Palestinians - they are all a bunch of schoolyard bullies blowing the crap out of each other and inflicting continued suffering on each other, all your wonderful conflict in Lebanon has done is to continue the endless circle of misery in the region.

It is easy to sit in another country and blame Israel for being heavy-handed, but fact is when you're attacked by someone using something that could potentially kill you, you'd use deadly force to defend yourself.

All this shows is you don't study martial arts - I study Krav Maga (invented by the Israeli special forces) and it's first teaching is that if you can avoid a fight at all costs do.

I deliberately used data concerning anti-sematism in the UK where the data was collected before 2006, (as much as possible anyways) so there wouldn't be a legitimate argument when people started saying "it's due to Israel bombing Lebanon". Fact is, there is anti-sematism in the UK and it is more common than many in the UK believe. In fact Times Higher Education (http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storyCode=209241&sectioncode=26), says flat out that there is more anti-sematism in the United Kingdom than in Germany.

Maybe that's because a lot more Jewish people live here than Germany (a lot did come here during Hitlers reign prior to WW2, or have you conveniently forgotten this?) Further more have you ever been to UK? I love how I'm getting a social commentary from someone who has clearly never been to the UK. Fact is there is racism in the states, and its far more prevalent than anti-Semitism is in the UK - you gonna do something about that Garfield?

GarfieldJL
12-05-2008, 04:40 PM
I'm sure I could show that there is demonstrative anti-semitism in the US - what's your point? How about I point out how a much larger proportion of Americans have been calling for Obama to be assassinated, care to do anything about that? Besides a small minority of incidence is irrelevant, especially when Arab-aphobia has been much more prevalent in western countries after 9/11


There have been some crackpots calling for Obama's death, and those people should be investigated, though they probably already are being investigated.


Who said anything about unjustified - it was just a stupid move, here's why; all Israel achived was the greatest recruitment drive Hezbollah will ever get, as well as destabilizing a fragile government that was just getting rid of Syrian and Iranian influences. By bombing as much as they did Israel has created a much bigger problem later on for itself by the number of young Lebanese who will become terrorists because their homes were attacked. The UK, could of reacted in a similar way to Iran kidnapping our sailors (the failure of command to act not withstanding) after they were taken we could of responded with force but, didn't as it wasn't worth the escalation.


Okay, there are several differences between the Iran/UK issue and this one.

Iran wasn't firing rockets into England, if they had there would have been a shooting war.
There were third parties financing and supplying the weapons being used against Israel (i.e. Syria and Iran)
While they abducted sailors from your ship, these Israelis were abducted in Israel literally.
If Israel hadn't have done anything, it would have been a green light to other terror groups to attack Israel.



Here's a big massive fact to hit you with, they've been acting the way you say for the last 4,000 years in the region, and look what its done. Israel isn't in the right, and neither are Hezbollah or the Palestinians - they are all a bunch of schoolyard bullies blowing the crap out of each other and inflicting continued suffering on each other, all your wonderful conflict in Lebanon has done is to continue the endless circle of misery in the region.


I wouldn't address it in quite the same terms, while I will admit you have a fair point about there is blame to go around, there are some things that give Israel the moral high-ground.

Israel does not use children as delivery devices for explosives nor do they use children as human shields.
Israel has been trying to get the Palestinians to sit down and talk the situation over to resolve the issue. (While some Palestinian factions are negotiating, and want the cycle to end others do not, until every last Israeli is dead)
Israel usually provides ample warning that civilians should get out of the area when they are going to attack that area.
Israel isn't in the habit of using ambulances to ferry munitions.
Israel isn't in the habit of firing rockets into another country from a UN observation post.
Israel has made peace with Egypt, and returned most of the land they took in the 6-day war (including the land that gave Egypt control of the Suez Canal again).



All this shows is you don't study martial arts - I study Krav Maga (invented by the Israeli special forces) and it's first teaching is that if you can avoid a fight at all costs do.


While you try to avoid a fight, you also have to be willing to fight if you end up having to. Believe it or not, Israel used an enormous amount of restraint in the Israeli/Lebanon conflict. I can think of several countries that would have simply carpet bombed Lebanon without regard for civilians.


Maybe that's because a lot more Jewish people live here than Germany (a lot did come here during Hitlers reign prior to WW2, or have you conveniently forgotten this?) Further more have you ever been to UK?

And that excuses the anti-sematism? Ordinarily, the more people are exposed to another group of people at a young age (assuming they aren't taught to hate that group), the less likely they'll end up hating that group and the more accepting they will be towards that group.


Fact is there is racism in the states, and its far more prevalent than anti-Semitism is in the UK - you gonna do something about that Garfield?

The racism isn't as prevalent as you think, it still exists, and there have been racism on both sides, but it is steadily on the decline at least concerning one particular group towards another (some of the minorities on the other hand are a different matter). The race card has been played to the point it has no more meaning whatsoever, particularly in 2008.

I don't know how many people here know this, but John McCain has an adopted daughter who happens to be black, ordinarily I wouldn't even bring this up because to me skin color is a nonissue, that being said, the only reason I'm bringing this up, we had Democrats (whom held public office) accusing John McCain of being a racist. That's just one example of it being overplayed, so I'm just going to say some people in the US have a tendency of being hypersensitive and take any little criticism as racism.

Astor
12-05-2008, 04:45 PM
The racism isn't as prevalent as you think

And neither is the Anti-semitism in this country. If it was as rife as you would have us believe (ludicrous, trying to convince residents of the concerned country, and also quite insulting), then we would know about it.

I'm not denying it exists, but it is in no way on the scale you are trying to claim.

GarfieldJL
12-05-2008, 04:52 PM
And neither is the Anti-semitism in this country. If it was as rife as you would have us believe (ludicrous, trying to convince residents of the concerned country, and also quite insulting), then we would know about it.

Last I checked, there isn't any credible accusation out there currently our major media outlets in the United States are racist, but there are credible sources that back up accusations that some European media stations are anti-sematic.


I'm not denying it exists, but it is in no way on the scale you are trying to claim.

The British Government among others apparently have data that show otherwise.

mimartin
12-05-2008, 05:07 PM
There is no racism in the United States; after all we elected an African-American President. :rolleyes:

However, the Federal Bureau of Investigation begs to differ with this assumption. 2007 Statistics by the FBI show that over 50% of the 7624 reported hate crime incidents were racially motivated.

2007 (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2007/incidents.htm)

Don't forget to go tables for a breakdown (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2007/table_01.htm).


Edit:
These are REPORTED CRIMES ONLY- it in no way takes into account unreported crimes or unreported incidents of racism, sexism…

GarfieldJL
12-05-2008, 05:49 PM
There is no racism in the United States; after all we elected an African-American President. :rolleyes:

That's not what I'm saying, I'm just saying it isn't as prevalent.


However, the Federal Bureau of Investigation begs to differ with this assumption. 2007 Statistics by the FBI show that over 50% of the 7624 reported hate crime incidents were racially motivated.

2007 (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2007/incidents.htm)

And how many crimes occur in the United States each year, better yet, look at the population of the United States. Not to mention not all of those cases were directed towards blacks.

Seriously as of 2007, there were approximately 301,139,947 people living in the United States.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/us.html

Based on that number assuming we are talking about a single individual in each case, would make it 0.00263% of the population committing a hate crime. That is assuming that it is 1 person per crime and leaving out that some people commit multiple acts or other incidents involve multiple people.

So while the number seems high, when you look at the rest of the data, it puts it in a whole different perspective.

The United Kingdom has a population of 60,776,238 people as of July, 2007.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/uk.html

And while we're referring to reported attacks, let me remind you that the British Police do not even record the vast majority of the attacks. So I'm having problems getting a remotely accurate number.


I have another incident case but this one is in France:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/961212.html

The police ruled it wasn't a hate crime.

Here us another incident, may be rather graphic:
The French interior minister, Nicolas Sarkozy, yesterday described the abduction, torture and killing of a young Jewish man as an anti-Semitic crime, amid growing anger at the brutal murder.
Mr Sarkozy told the French parliament that the gang sought for the murder of Ilan Halimi, 23, whose naked body was found by railway tracks eight days ago, three weeks after he had disappeared, had also tried to kidnap other Jews.


Here is the French Interior Minister's comment on the incident:
Mr Sarkozy told MPs: "The truth is that these crooks acted primarily for sordid and vile motives, to get money, but they were convinced that 'the Jews have money', and if those they kidnapped didn't have money, their family and their community would come up with it.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/feb/22/france.mainsection

To get money huh? In the US, that would have been considered a hate crime.

SW01
12-05-2008, 06:28 PM
And while we're referring to reported attacks, let me remind you that the British Police do not even record the vast majority of the attacks. So I'm having problems getting a remotely accurate number.

The police don't keep records of attacks...strange then that the Home Office was able to publish a figure of 5,619 reported hate crimes involving injury and 4,350 hate crimes without injury.Home Office Source (http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-victims/reducing-crime/hate-crime/) (note that harassment is a tort rather than a criminal action)

Also, of 29 defendants brought to trial for religiously motivated crimes in 2006-2007 by the Crown Prosecution Service, only two of the victims were Jewish, compared to 17 Muslim victims. I compare that to the FBI statistics of 68.4% of 1477 racially motivated incidents being anti-Semitic.CPS Source (http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/pressreleases/108_08.html)

mur'phon
12-06-2008, 06:23 AM
Israel does not use children as delivery devices for explosives

In all fairness this tends to be done be the extreme fringe groupings, which is hard to claim represents Palestinians/Hezballah supporters.

nor do they use children as human shields.

No, but in the palestinians case they often have little choice due to being clumped together in small areas.

Israel has been trying to get the Palestinians to sit down and talk the situation over to resolve the issue. (While some Palestinian factions are negotiating, and want the cycle to end others do not, until every last Israeli is dead)

They also set requirements which the Palestinians can't meet, and, thanks to US backing have "should" attached to most of their side of deals made, while Palestinians are only offered "musts". Besides, breaking promises made to the palestinians, their (for the most part) refusal to deal with Hamas has, more than anything, destroyed Palestinians faith in a peacefull deal with Israel.

Israel usually provides ample warning that civilians should get out of the area when they are going to attack that area.

Palestinians often have no place to get too, not to mention that many attacks aren't advertised.

Israel has made peace with Egypt, and returned most of the land they took in the 6-day war (including the land that gave Egypt control of the Suez Canal again).

Wonderfull, if they only did as much to make peace with it's other neighbors.

Believe it or not, Israel used an enormous amount of restraint in the Israeli/Lebanon conflict. I can think of several countries that would have simply carpet bombed Lebanon without regard for civilians.

Not carpet bombing a country is "enormous amount of restraint"?:dozey:
And while we are at it, which carpet bombing countries where you thinking of?

One thing to remember, bias against israel =/=anti-semitism

Q
12-06-2008, 04:50 PM
Garfield, after reading this entire thread (yeah, there's ~10-15 minutes that I'll never get back) I'm still at a loss as to the point that you're trying to make here. :confused:

Web Rider
12-06-2008, 05:18 PM
Garfield, after reading this entire thread (yeah, there's ~10-15 minutes that I'll never get back) I'm still at a loss as to the point that you're trying to make here. :confused:

The UN and Europe are a breeding ground for antisemitism, and that's bad.

Q
12-06-2008, 05:32 PM
And that's news? I thought that the Holocaust already proved that.

EnderWiggin
12-06-2008, 05:37 PM
Do we see the UK making it so Hindus get to have Hindu law, or Jewish people be subject to Jewish law? Seriously, that is favoring one religion over any other religion.

It'd be really nice if you could make your points using actual fact instead of just saying whatever you want without knowing if it's true.

Thanks in advance.

_EW_

jonathan7
12-06-2008, 06:35 PM
The UN and Europe are a breeding ground for antisemitism, and that's bad.

And that's news? I thought that the Holocaust already proved that.

Guys perhaps I'm lost here, but having been to all of the UK, and much of; France, Belguim, Holland, France, Spain, Portugal -- I really can say that anti-Semitism is no more prevalent here than racism against other groups. Indeed in Germany, because of the war anti-Semitism is treated extremely seriously. I'm further at a loss to see how the UN is anti-Semitic, just because it criticises Israel does not make it anti=Semitic. Furthermore the last two posts by SW01 have utterly destroyed Garfields points.

Q
12-06-2008, 06:55 PM
@j7:
We weren't being serious. Sorry.

jonathan7
12-06-2008, 07:04 PM
@j7:
We weren't being serious. Sorry.

Hehe, you don't need to apologise, no green writing here ;) - I was 90% sure it was sarcastic, but the lack of a smiley meant I wasn't 100% sure :xp: