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View Full Version : Sometimes the littlest choices have huge outcomes!!! [Spoilers]


Shem
04-15-2009, 07:17 AM
What I’m about to talk about here is a long time coming in terms of what I’ve learned about the general KOTOR players when posting videos on YouTube. My findings – though not set up – should be an interesting read for you, so that is what promoted me to report this.

Who would have thought where putting two dialogue choices you could make in KOTOR II: TSL by Obsidian would have a huge impact for the impatient and the surprises that are in the game.

Here is the dialogue choice I’m talking about that has a huge impact on what happens for the rest of the game:

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/9673/revanalignment.jpg

I almost want to go back in time when this game was being developed and tell Obsidian to reverse the order. Reason being is all the impatient gamers out there who are surprised by the results of that one dialogue choice. The biggest change is that with choosing number two, you’re going to get Admiral Carth Onasi instead of Admiral Cede (the black guy). All because they didn't read the dialogue choices because they didn't think this conversation was very important. So they skipped through it and because of that thinking, they will automatically pick the first option, which is the dark side Revan instead of the light side Revan, which means no Carth. You get the black guy Admiral Cede instead. Then when seeing my videos of Carth, they're all confused.

If Obsidian had it in mind that lots of people are lazy when it comes to paying attention to things they don't think is important, they may have thought that having option 1 and 2 reversed because in the long run more people would rather see Carth than some guy they didn't know. But at the same time it's the gamer's fault that they decide not to pay attention.

I also think comprehension skills maybe lacking as well. The 1st option talks about Revan uniting the Sith on Korriban. That would mean Revan is the dark side if they thought about it hard enough. Then you have to think about how the first KOTOR game ended when Revan chose the dark side. What happened to Carth? That's why he wouldn't be in the game when making that choice.

The 2nd option talks about saving the Republic and if you think about that carefully, that's a light side choice. Carth was there at the end celebration which means Revan and Carth would remain friends which would explain Carth's presence in the game, right?

Want to know how many times people have been surprised that Carth is in the game? Here are some quotes on my some of my YouTube videos featuring Carth in TSL that you may find amusing and all because they pick the first option rushing through the dialogue thinking it’s not important:

*Keep in mind that YouTube doesn’t have a language filter so I cut some of it out and put “[snip]” in there in those cases.

"WOW DID U GET THIS SEN"

"when do u choose revan ds/ls?"

"Hmm... The first time I played this game, I thought that discussion with Atton was almost entirely pointless. I never knew it could actually alter history. :P"

"I thot this was long after carth's time. Thot they'd all be LOOOOONG DEAD"

"is this a mod? i hope not!"

"Could you tell me how you get to that because carth was kick[snip] in the first game."

"is this on da xbox version"

"I thought the second one was based on the DS ending in the first. Oh, I wish I saw this ending."

"i wonder whatever happened to the rest of the party members on the 1st kotor, if u choose the light side"

"can u meet mission or big z?"

"how'd you get this scene shem?"

"I maybe be pathetic at KOTOR2 but i picked light side and male for revan Does this cut scene come up automatically? or do you have to like complete some sort of side quest?"

"carth is in kotor 2!!!!!????"

"how did you do that? how did you meet carth? plz tell me"

"I know how to make Revan a man or a woman but how do you make him lige or dark side?"

"how you get carth?"

"what do i have to do to get this"

"is this a mod or not"

"is this the PC version i only have the xbox version of 1 and 2 should i get the pc versioZ of them? is there extra content???? PLZ MESSAGE A REPLY I WILL BUY THEM TODAY IF THERE IS!!!"

"How do i Choose Revan in The Beginning Of The Game?"

"how you do that"

"Was this a mod or can you actually meet up with him? It doesn't look like a mod to me though."

"How do you get this scene to appear?"

"how do u set revan as light/dark??"

"How do you talk to Carth in kotor 2?"

"so what you did in the first game....effects the second one as well?"

"Where the hell (again...) was Carth when Darth Nihilus attacked Telos?! Well, I guess I'm going to start over KotOR 2 for the 5th time."

"how come somtimes wen i play,its carth,but other new games,its that black guy?"

"where abouts on telos did u find carth?"

"How do you get this conversation with Carth? How! please give me full detail!"

"argh dangit, just finished Kotor2 again last week, playing as female. I can't remember having the option to say revan was light =( I did say revan was female tho and i never skip through dial's."
"[snip] how could i have missed it =("

"these games can be confusing sometimes but i think i have it all figured out i should go play it again to make sure"

"Wait, where do u see Carth, i played TSL and i didnt see him"

"Huh? This is on x-box too?? I have this on x-box but I never seen this before"

"Ah my God can you tell when this will happen in the game? Like which planet or somthing..? I'm a light-side female"

"How do you set Revan to be on the light side? Of 20 times I played through this game I managed to do it only once - by misstake. And I don't remember how to do it. :S Please tell me."

"how do you get this??"

"so uhh, is this a mod for the PC or can i get this on my xbox version?"

"How do u get this?"

"is this like only on 1 console like xbox or pc"

"I don't understand. when I play, after you've killed Darth Nihilus you go straight to Malacore 5. how did you do? Could you explain as specificly as possible."

"how do u get to meet carth?"

"ok is this also on the xbox game cuz ive never seen this!?!?!?!?"

"I don't remember this scene?"

"wait when do u meet carth i have beaten it and have never met Carth"

"This is KotOR II? I don't remember this scene?! This is mod?!"

"do you have to be a girl to meet carth?"

"There are some things i dont understand. On Peragus Atton says that Revan takes sith to Korriban and On Korriban in those special Chambers u find a holocron of Bastila as a dark Jedi. But in this it shows them as all good. So wtf??? Was Revan good or bad in this game??"

"HOLY?!? i thought darth reven took the dark side...or did her take light..or both???"

"how did you meet carth? i could never find him."

"is this KOTOR 2 if so how do you get to meet carth?"

"Hey! How come "I" Never experienced this part before !"

"how'd u get to meet carth. Revan is on the light side and male but wat do i do to see carth"

"lol mods"

"can u only meet carth in KOTOR2 on the pc version?"

"Sorry, when does this happen??? What do I have to do? I never met Carth..."

"can you plz tell me all the steps to doing this? cause i thought u kill him in 1st ver."

"hey how do u get carth as admiral i always get this black guy"All those comments could have been avoided if only Obsidian switched the dialogue choice order because of the impatient gamers out there.

Another choice that comes after all that is what gender Revan was. This is paid attention to more, than the first one for some reason, though still overlooked:

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/924/revangender.jpg

Anyway, this affects the outcome on whether or not Bastila shows up with Carth at the end of the game if Revan was light side, and other parts of the game, etc, etc, etc…

The biggest thing that the confused need to understand. It doesn't matter what the Exile is (light or dark, male or female), it matters what you set Revan to be in the conversation points I pointed out. How anybody would think the choices of what you make your Exile would matter what happened to Revan, Carth or Bastila for that matter. It doesn't, but people still ask it which makes me want to smack them on the side of the head and tell them to think about it really hard.

Well, here are some interesting comments about Bastila showing up in the game in some of my YouTube videos you may find amusing:

"How is Bastilla there? She died in the first game if you went to the Light side."

"This doesn't make any sense!!! Does Bastila or Carth shows up again in the course of the game?! If not, where/(what) the hell was Bastila (doing) when Kreia killed Kavar, Vrook and Zez Kai-Ell?!"

"yoo JediShemL, you probably heard of this question a million times, so im sorry. but there are soo many scenes that you see bastilla and/or carth in kotoR 2. Can you see all of those scenes in one saved game by setting revan and the exile to certain genders and light/dark side paths? or do they all happen to different settings?"

"Hey can anyone tell me if bastilla still appears to talk to carth after the meeting with The exile and carth? Or is that just cut if you choose revan to me a female i know she appears if you choose reven to be male. "

"I ONly found Bastla dark side messege how do u find Bastela light and Carth's message"

"To set Revan on the darkside, and Bastila with him, what must you do? Does the Exile have to be dark sided?"

"where do u find this"

"omg"

"but the only thing I get is a Dark side bastila message"

"i never even got these cutscenes."

"is this in the game????"

"how do you unlock this."

"how do you get this message??"

"it's that bastila????"

"is this only on the pc version"

"Bastila didn't pop up in my game."

"WOW thats really cool i didnt know bastilla was still around"

"I didn't see Bastila in that Scene! O_O"

"can sum1 send me a email message explaining to me why bastila is still alive"

"ok i dont know but i never ever met Carth OR Bastila in KOTOR 2 on Xbox except for Bastila's hologram in sith academy"

"why would they show Bastila? What if she turns to the darkside in the first one she just comes back to light?"

"wth.. when i played the game (female light side watchman i think) i never saw bastilla though. the only time i saw her was when u had to fight her, malak and the other jedi who went to the dark side."

"I've seen that part, but not with bastilla, is this cut content or do you just have to declare revan a guy at the beginning."

"WTF!!! I'm sooo confused!! Was that last part real?"

"How do you get this dialogue?"

"yay carth and bastila r alive"

"what is this? why are both carth and bastila on kotor2? how is this? i've beat the game but i've never spoken to them at any time"

"how did u get that stuff can u get it for the xbox version?"

"Are u sure this was if Revan is Set to Light Side..."

"when in second the game do you decide whether revan was light or dark side?"

"So... If you tell of Revan as male is Kotor1 then you get to see Carth and Bastilla!?!? Damn, i never saw them"

"how do you reveal that revan is light sided?"

"how did u get bastil holo on tc?"

"who is that woman? It is not Bastila!"

"but i have meet carth but never seen bastila coming is that not strange...or-_-"

"question, how do you get bastila to be in that scene? i usually get it to the point where does "following his orders" thing but i thought she was killed sorry if i seem like idiot but i honestly dont know."

"where does bastila make an appearance in KOTORII?"

"how do u get that when i get into that room its says that it was damaged from the explosion"

"wen i do it it says it was blon up"

"how did you open door without destroying the holocron? i just blowed the dooe up but it destroys the holocron"

"huh i thought the holocrone gets destroyed once you use the theorom charges on the door, how do you open the door without damaging the holocrone"

"ive tryed wit hthe bomb it only destroys the holocron"

"How do you get into that room? Whenever I try to get in it ruins the hologram..."

"when you say bastila appears in the game do you mean in the hologram or in the flesh? if in the flesh how do you get to see her?"Just imagine how many people out there who have never seen any of my YouTube videos never knew the whole time they played TSL that both Carth and Bastila are in the game. Let’s just say there is enough out there that rumors do spread to the gullible.

One of the craziest rumors that will never seem to die is Kreia is Bastila many, many years later. There are so many people out there that never saw Bastila in TSL that it’s a strong rumor. All because setting Revan to the dark side was the first option instead of the second. If only Obsidian switched the options, this rumor probably wouldn’t have gotten out there. Yes, it does take some thinking that the game is five years later, but many people out there don’t know that and it never occurs to them like how Master Vrook is in the game and hasn’t aged. Logic isn’t a strong point, but then again being logical in my opinion means you read the dialogue before you make the choice.

Well, here are some quotes about this rumor I’ve come across:

"BINGO I GOT IT.kriea is bastilia!remeber revan corrupts her."

"i know for a fact that kreia is bastilla"

"Mandalore is Canderous just like Bastila is Kreia"

"I played Kotor 2 lots of times, before 1. But, does this mean that Kreia was Bastila o_O?"

"How do you know Kreia isn't Bastila???? Where do you see Bastila in kotor2???"

"could Kreia be Bastila?"

"She is bastila?(sorry if i spelt that wrong)but i have played kotor 2 and completed it but i dont know this."

"so is this Kreia actually Bastila???"

"i have a feeling kreia is bastilla or something"

"i thiank that She is bastlla"

I also got a PM of someone trying to get my attention that they know Bastila is Kreia:

She appears once in Kotor 2, and that's in a hologram, and plus, bastilla was the only person in the game that knew you were revan, so how does kreia know?

And also my friend gave me die-hard evidence, he e-mailed lucasarts and asked them and they replied with "yes, but she has ages alot, infact every character in the game has aged, all but revan!After linking several sources of evidence that the game is five years later and gave him logical evidence like Master Vrook is there, alive and hasn’t aged, Carth being there, and showing Bastila’s appearance with Carth, etc, etc, he sends me this reply:

Then you've clearly never completed Kotor 1, coz when you fight bastilla in the star forge, she says, " I wanted to tell you that you were revan, you could have been the evil darklord again, but instead you gave it up to be a good, heroic jedi! get your facts straight you fat gaming nerd, I'm blocking you!Again, all because Obsidian put the dark side choice first. Reminds me of that quote Carth said to Dustil:

"I'm proud of you, Dustil. You aren't hanging onto a lie after you see it for what it is. Not everyone could do that."

That quote used to be in my signature before it got too big, but there is so much real life meaning that quote brings to you.

I hope I gave you all good laughs that came all because Obsidian had to put the dark side Revan as choice number one, and the light side Revan as choice number two. :D

A L I E N
04-15-2009, 08:35 AM
Lol....

SW01
04-15-2009, 08:55 AM
Well clearly not everyone tries to get the full value out of their games...twits...I mean, why bother spending money on something only to rush through it, not understanding what is going on - for heaven's sake deciding outcomes and environment (like Bastila and Carth appearing) through choices is one of the most appealing things about the series!

I can understand those who have only played it once, maybe even twice, having missed it, but I can't abide those who rush through and ignore dialogue...especially if they later claim the game was lacking story or was too short...

And that individual in the last exchange - what an arrogant swine! Sure the back of the blasted box even says it was five years later! Though, I doubt one can put much faith in an individual that claims a game developer told them something which is just undoubtedly, indefensibly wrong without even extracting a little bit.

Lol....

My sentiments exactly.

:lol:

Lord Spitfire
04-15-2009, 10:00 AM
Hahaha dude I can't tell if this is extremely funny or extremely sad. :D

Ibelin
04-15-2009, 11:58 AM
LOL. Good work Shem!
And the rumors about Kreia = Basty is :xp: because the timeline is so clearly.
I just simply chose what i really did in KOTOR1( male Revan saved the republic) and i got Bastila the first time i play this game. :p
The first time i saw Kreia i also thought she is Bastila. :p
And truth betold, i have played this game only once ( mostly because of Peragus :argh: ) Then i suddenly found out that there's something between Basty's appearance and the dialouge with Atton.

Q
04-15-2009, 12:57 PM
Damn.

Basic reading comprehension skills FTW.

It's a role-playing game, which means that sometimes it might help to actually read through the dialog choices. What a concept. :dozey:

TKA-001
04-15-2009, 01:46 PM
This is rather shocking news to me, especially since I've never for a second believed that Kreia was ever anyone other than Kreia.

Marius Fett
04-15-2009, 01:51 PM
It really is amazing how people refuse to read the dialog options properly, and pay attention to the story. That's what the KotOR games are about, after all.

The rumors that Kreia is Bastila were ridiculous, even when they started, especially as you see Carth and Bastila speaking near the end of the game, if you played as LS.

I agree with what you said, Shem, that the dialog options are the wrong way around, but then again, if people are too lazy to read what's on the screen, rather then just skipping through, it's their own fault that they know nothing of the story and characters. What's annoying though, is that others, who do pay attention have to suffer from their stupidity, in answering daft questions.

Even after being told, people still refuse to listen to reason. It really gets irritating after 50 odd times of explaining to someone that Kreia is not Bastila, while Mandalore is Canderous Ordo...

It's a role-playing game, which means that sometimes it might help to actually read through the dialog choices. What a concept. :dozey:

iknorite? Revolutionary, eh? :p

Chevron 7 locke
04-15-2009, 02:21 PM
Wow...all those comments just because the options were a bit mixed up...

:lol:

And how can someone actually believe that Bastila is Kreia?! Bastila was around twenty during the Jedi Civil war...and Kreia is...what, fifty or sixty years old?

A L I E N
04-15-2009, 02:47 PM
Wow...all those comments just because the options were a bit mixed up...

:lol:

And how can someone actually believe that Bastila is Kreia?! Bastila was around twenty during the Jedi Civil war...and Kreia is...what, fifty or sixty years old?

Well you know what they say, when you're an idiot-it's permanent xD

Marius Fett
04-15-2009, 02:49 PM
Kreia is...what, fifty or sixty years old?

Pfft.. And the rest. :p

Fiestainabox
04-15-2009, 03:20 PM
I remember that conversation the first time I played TSL, for the rest of the game I was all "Who the eff is this Reven chick and why do I care that she's a Sith..."

I guess that's what I get for playing sequels first. <_<

Marius Fett
04-15-2009, 04:14 PM
"Who the eff is this Reven chick and why do I care that she's a Sith..."

That is one brave thing to say in the middle of the SWK forum.. :p

Hawkstrong16
04-15-2009, 08:47 PM
That is one brave thing to say in the middle of the SWK forum.. :p

haha, yeah.......
Anyway.

lol. wow some people need to learn how to play their games better. its called paying attention!

And I never once would have EVER thought that Kreia was Bastila. never ever. even before I beat the game.... Just wow

Darth Avlectus
04-15-2009, 09:16 PM
.................Who the eff is Revan? What, is that person a snail?

@ thread: Damn. As one of my lady friends said about bad drivers: People just don't F***'in LOOK anymore. You could put it RIGHT_IN_FRONT_OF_THEIR_FACES and they *still* don't see it. Makes you want to SMACK them upside the head. Doesn't it? However, when people say "whoops, I guess I didn't read it", since I can't smack them upside the head through the monitor, it really makes me want to cuss them out.

OR at the very least if I want to be a snarky smartass, as EnderWiggen has said once before to someone else (and made me :rofl:)
Well...That just makes me all sad inside.

You know Shem, I actually understand why you 'seem' so irritable on youtube. *So* many people are so "twanked" they miss your info and humor. Which is a pity. You actually have quite a sense of humor, big fella.

...I would already have sent you an invite on youtube except I am afraid some of my prior commenting habits elsewhere might disqualify me from even commenting on yours. :lol: --Though I don't believe I've ever annoyed you on YT. Not on purpose anyway. :xp: I'm also afraid to say the wrong stuff and sound all n00b-ish.

Ibelin
04-16-2009, 06:38 AM
The fact that some people think Bastila is Kreia is quite reasonable at first because the timeline wasn't in the opening crawl.
But keeping that thought even after playing the game is :argh:

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
04-16-2009, 08:05 AM
Then you've clearly never completed Kotor 1, coz when you fight bastilla in the star forge, she says, " I wanted to tell you that you were revan, you could have been the evil darklord again, but instead you gave it up to be a good, heroic jedi! get your facts straight you fat gaming nerd, I'm blocking you!


^ROFL!!

Ctrl Alt Del
04-16-2009, 09:52 AM
Well clearly not everyone tries to get the full value out of their games...twits...I mean, why bother spending money on something only to rush through it, not understanding what is going on - for heaven's sake deciding outcomes and environment (like Bastila and Carth appearing) through choices is one of the most appealing tings about the series!
QFT this.

Comments are so obnoxious it's even funny.

RedHawke
04-16-2009, 10:09 AM
Damn.

Basic reading comprehension skills FTW.

It's a role-playing game, which means that sometimes it might help to actually read through the dialog choices. What a concept. :dozey:
This post sums up my thoughts on this exactly... so no bother trying to top it. ;)

Some people! :lol: @ :eyeraise:

DarthStoney
04-16-2009, 11:23 AM
Hahaha dude I can't tell if this is extremely funny or extremely sad. :D

It's sad because it's so true!:migraine: But I laughed anyway:lol:

Ping
04-16-2009, 04:45 PM
Nobody reads these descirptions? I read them, and then choose very carefully. I'm also a fast reader, so I usually end up reading a character's whole sentence before they finish talking. Which causes me to skip through some dialogue scenes a bit too fast. Must slow down! :xp:

People who post crap like that makes me want to :swear:

Marius Fett
04-16-2009, 06:59 PM
Which causes me to skip through some dialogue scenes a bit too fast. Must slow down!

As long as you're bothering to read it, it doesn't really matter whether you listen to the VO's or not. :p

Taak Farst
04-16-2009, 08:07 PM
The Kreia = Bastila rumour made me laugh a lot. God, if only they paid attention to the choices, and saw bastila with carth on telos..

TKA-001
04-16-2009, 09:28 PM
The only way I can imagine a person being convinced of this is if said person had never talked to Kreia outside of unavoidable cutscenes. Hell if I know how a person could come to this conclusion willingly and on their own, however.

Ibelin
04-17-2009, 02:20 AM
I haven't play TSL the DS way. Do i have to wander around the Sith Academy to find Bastila's holocron?

Marius Fett
04-17-2009, 04:18 AM
^Not really the place to ask, but meh..

It's in Uthar's bedroom. ;)

Ztalker
04-17-2009, 11:05 AM
^ Which makes you wonder what Bastilla did in there. She never followed my squad onto the surface of Korriban......:eek:

@ Topic:

QFT this.

Comments are so obnoxious it's even funny.
Q.F.T.

What Shem posted...makes me wonder what I missed myself (never played through TSL Dark sided)

The Betrayer
04-17-2009, 12:07 PM
It's in Uthar's bedroom. ;)
This sounds so pedophile-y without the quote.


And also my friend gave me die-hard evidence, he e-mailed lucasarts and asked them and they replied with "yes, but she has ages alot, infact every character in the game has aged, all but revan!Hey you big fat gaming nerd i email lucas art and they say she age men!

Wedge Suron
04-17-2009, 07:20 PM
Who said that Darth Betrayal?

Ping
04-18-2009, 11:02 AM
You know, I'm actually surprised that nobody's brought up Bastila's "distant descendant" Satele (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Satele_Shan). If you read the webcomic closely, you can determine she's related. Took me a while to figure that out until I went to Wookieepedia. :p

Adavardes
04-19-2009, 02:26 PM
Anyone who rushes through dialogue on TSL is missing out on pretty much everything fantastic about the game. The depth of storyline, the dimension of the characters, and the very complex and realistic interactions that they share are almost completely reliant on dialogue, influence, and the ability to read. If you fast forward through even one line of Kreia's dialogue, chances are you're missing out on a brilliant and well thought out concept or philosophy on the Force, or the Jedi, or the Sith, that challenges the black and white conventions of earlier Star Wars canon in a way that could even be considered a redefinition of the Light and Dark sides themselves.

People complain that the love stories aren't very good in TSL, but just because there isn't a kissing scene, that doesn't make the emotions shared between the PCs, both male and female, and the crew members, any less moving or powerful. The scene with Visas and the male LS Exile before the battle for Telos can be completely skipped, but if you READ, and LISTEN, then you learn that the Jedi's condemnation of the exile is unfounded, that he merely represents what they fear to understand, life without the Force that still manages to thrive. It takes the concept of the Force being this all powerful energy that is vital to the galaxy, and makes it expendable; Visas reveals this through very riveting dialogue that couples reason and perspective with unerring emotions like love and caring. Not only is it a very pivotal revelation to the underlying themes and philosophies expressed in the game, the intimacy of the scene is palpable, and you can really feel the love she has for him, and her fear of losing him to her former Master, Darth Nihilus.

Skipping over dialogue impatiently can have negative effects on the game itself, but really, the most unfortunate loss suffered by this unwillingness to slow down is how easy it is to miss out on the core quality of this game, and mistakingly label it as a poorly constructed sequel.

Ping
04-19-2009, 03:08 PM
As long as you're bothering to read it, it doesn't really matter whether you listen to the VO's or not. :p

Heh, thanks. I actually read through the dialogue so fast at one point, when I clicked to skip it, I accidently clicked on the dialogue option that set Revan to dark side. Luckily, since I had saved prior to that event, I just reloaded my game and then set Revan to light side.

Endorenna
04-19-2009, 03:55 PM
Well, I read through the dialogue before they finish saying it...and, since Mical showed up, I never play with the sound on... >_<

But I don't miss anything. :p

Seriously, where did ANYONE ever get the idea that Kreia is Bastila? That's just...wierd... o_0

And that's without EVER having actually gotten Bastila in there! (since I play DS ;). I got Carth once! :lol:)

But, yea. The moral of this story is...

READ ALL YOUR DIALOGUE OPTIONS!!!!! :lol:

Apprentice_Greenwood
04-22-2009, 03:30 AM
Without wanting to put myself in the firing line, I can completely understand how the (ignorant, yes) comments Shem received came about - oh, and bear in mind that this entire thread is based around reading things properly ;)

Yes, KOTOR & TSL are RPGs, which is great to those of us who actually understand that concept. And therefore, we appreciate that dialogue is, for a good RPG (IMHO) where the whole game is at. Others feel that RPGs are all about levelling up, collecting gold and rinse & repeating, not really querying the whole Role-Playing thing. That's not to say they're wrong, these are two different sides of the same coin.

The point here though, is that KOTOR & TSL are Star Wars, and that means that loads of casual gamers, who don't necessarily have a favourite genre but who perhaps go off magazine scores and whatnot, bought the games, in droves. As such, they're more interested in cut-scenes and then fighting stuff. Yes, that's a massive generalisation, but it's also true to a varying degree. One over-riding factor is that a lot of people play these games just because they are Star Wars - and sadly, for many now, Star Wars is episodes 1, 2 & 3, and on top of that, for another whole segment of people, they're action movies and nothing more.

I know nothing about cars, but I sometimes really enjoy driving games. I bet there are people out there who would post on their forums about how I wasn't playing a driving sim properly because I didn't look at all the different engine and gear systems I could use, I just clicked whatever was at the top of the list. Did it diminish my enjoyment of the game? Possibly, but I'd never know unless someone else pointed it out to me.

Kreia states that she trained Revan, when you've gained enough influence, if you didn't read other info properly (or even if you just did this early enough on in the game) and you knew just, but only just enough about KOTOR, then perhaps it's not too amazing a logical jump to believe the mistaken rumours. Hey, Kreia and Bastilla both have pigtailed hair, too.

All of that aside, though, the guy insulting Shem for being a 'fat gaming nerd'? King of Clevertown, well done him. I like people who reward those who take the time to help them by slapping them in the face. They tend to make me feel a lot better about myself :disaprove

And @Adavardes (post # 32) - right there with you, I couldn't agree more. Personally, I feel a little sad for those who feel that there was a tangible 'love' story in the first KOTOR - but hey, this is a computer RPG, so I suppose what there was counts. :indif:

Shem
04-25-2009, 03:26 AM
One of the things that is a shame is that a lot of people don't realize how role playing games work -- meaning it's about choices and the outcome of the choices that can determine what happened in the first KOTOR game. I guess people forgot there were two endings in the first game and the second one needs to have the outcome of the first game decided early on to determine who is going to be in the game.

Here is a video of Darth Revan as a female who embraced the dark side and Carth falls in love with her:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXz27HkrCKo

So Carth dies in that version. Even though a lot of people thought this scene was a restored content mod which it isn't, here are some of the comments that some people have made that give you the idea that people don't understand that these games are about choices and it's choices *you* make and that they affect outcomes of both games:

"Carth couldn't of died though. He needs to be alive for KOTOR2 :3
"

"Really? Well he's in KOTOR2 so he should be alive."

"But I met carth in the second one.."

"wait what? carth can't die in this one he was in the second one, for a few scenes"

"But Carth is alive in Kotor2"

"wait up.. i swear i saw the Disciple talking to Carth on a hologram in KotOR 2..."The part where I'm confused is that they actually made the choice to say that Revan was on the light side, which means they had to move their choice when talking to Atton. I just don't understand how they didn't understand that they were making a choice on how the first KOTOR game ended. Comprehension skills are desperately needed! ;)

RedHawke
04-25-2009, 06:13 AM
Comprehension skills are desperately needed! ;)
Yup... desperately needed with some.

Ctrl Alt Del
04-25-2009, 09:37 PM
It makes me wonder what's the point of playing a game as KotOR if you're skipping the dialogs.

Sith Holocron
04-26-2009, 02:23 PM
Shem, I wonder if changing the order of those conversations might make a good mod over at your site?

Shem
04-26-2009, 02:31 PM
Shem, I wonder if changing the order of those conversations might make a good mod over at your site?I'm almost willing to bet that if you go to KotorFiles, you know a few things about the game like Carth and Bastila are in TSL as I've never seen that be an issue yet in the three years I've ran the show there -- just on YouTube so far. I would have never known this to be an issue of people not paying attention if I hadn't posted videos on YouTube.

Another thing is many of those YouTube people ask me many times if they do those things they see me do on the Xbox version. I mean, you can do that mod if you want to, but I don't think it's going to help those who would see the mod being available. All it would do is give exposure of what they're doing wrong if they discover it and the mod wouldn't be much of help now that they know what to look for.

It's one of those things that would have been better served if the developers would have reversed the Revan being light or dark side options when selecting the dialogue options order, but then again I think the good things that you see in the game should have happened if you had be patient to read what you're selecting. People should have read the options and comprehended what they mean and that they are selecting what happened in the first game.

Shem
05-09-2009, 06:32 PM
I just got this comment about Carth being in TSL on one of my YouTube videos today that I thought was worth sharing:

how do you get this it is insane!! And I swear I will hunt you down if its a mod!

Marius Fett
05-09-2009, 08:38 PM
Quaking in your boots, eh Shem? :p

RedHawke
05-10-2009, 04:19 AM
I just got this comment about Carth being in TSL on one of my YouTube videos today that I thought was worth sharing:

how do you get this it is insane!! And I swear I will hunt you down if its a mod!
Oh man! :ugh:

TriggerGod
05-10-2009, 12:44 PM
Then you've clearly never completed Kotor 1, coz when you fight bastilla in the star forge, she says, " I wanted to tell you that you were revan, you could have been the evil darklord again, but instead you gave it up to be a good, heroic jedi! get your facts straight you fat gaming nerd, I'm blocking you!
No matter how many times I read this, its always funny.

Then you've clearly never completed Kotor 1, coz when you fight bastilla in the star forge, she says, " I wanted to tell you that you were revan, you could have been the evil darklord, but instead you gave it up to be a good, heroic jedi! "
And this has to do with Bastila being Kreia how?

get your facts straight you fat gaming nerd
hahahahah
And only a fat gaming nerd would've been able to recite the above line. From memory.

I'm blocking you!
Oh no, now what will Shem do now that he doesn't have your approval?

All right, where is fat gaming nerd number 2?

I just got this comment about Carth being in TSL on one of my YouTube videos today that I thought was worth sharing:
how do you get this it is insane!! And I swear I will hunt you down if its a mod!
with your e-spear?

Shem
05-10-2009, 07:12 PM
Sometimes I love the people on YouTube. I've read some of the funniest comments ever for the KOTOR games there.

Here is a theory someone just came up with about four hours ago:

maybe kreia killed revan and stole his ship. because carth said that wherever revan has been the ship has also been there and when you are on the harbinger kreia is the one who saves you with the ebon hawk.

One of these times I'm going to go through all my video comments and post quotes on some of the funniest theories and clueless observations ever posted on my YouTube videos. Seriously, make sure you're not eating or drinking anything when you read them.

Chevron 7 locke
05-10-2009, 07:18 PM
Sometimes I love the people on YouTube. I've read some of the funniest comments ever for the KOTOR games there.

Here is a theory someone just came up with about four hours ago:



maybe kreia killed revan and stole his ship. because carth said that wherever revan has been the ship has also been there and when you are on the harbinger kreia is the one who saves you with the ebon hawk.

:raise:

Your joking...right?

Shem...I envy you. Everyday you can look at your youtube comments and have yourself a good laugh to brighten up your day. :lol:

Shem
05-11-2009, 03:47 PM
Here is a comment that I found on my Sacrificing Visas video today when I was preparing the odd comments I receive on YouTube about Carth being in TSL.

"you how when u get in the ravager right? And then admiral carth is say i can't lose telos again well when i played second time new game the admiral was a black guy weird and u no how carth thxs u it was skipped and went to the part where the ebon hawk crashed again lol can anyone tell me y dis happenin?"

Darth Avlectus
05-11-2009, 04:21 PM
:rofl:

Yeah. I want to be a YT jester for your account sometimes, Shem. It's hard to resist, because all those comments....are just asking for it. Which is I why I no longer go anywhere near your account on YT. I'm always afraid I might piss you off. :lol:

I'm under similar handle: GTA2SWcity. One of these days I'll come up wit a script for one of my ridiculous shows. I might review the inane "pink floyd" ROM hack of Donkey Kong NES.

Ping
05-12-2009, 06:17 PM
Sometimes I love the people on YouTube. I've read some of the funniest comments ever for the KOTOR games there.

Here is a theory someone just came up with about four hours ago:



One of these times I'm going to go through all my video comments and post quotes on some of the funniest theories and clueless observations ever posted on my YouTube videos. Seriously, make sure you're not eating or drinking anything when you read them.

Nice, Shem. I can't help but wnder if you'll make a video about the stupid theories people make. ;)

Shem
05-29-2009, 11:52 PM
Carth's Last Stand
http://www.youtube.com/comment_servlet?all_comments&v=CXz27HkrCKo

I just got this message on that video a little more than two hours ago:

"yea but he is in KotOR 2 im srry im kinda confused"

At least this guy can say he figured how to choose the dialogue option to get Carth, but still lacks some serious comprehension skills!

Allronix
05-30-2009, 01:41 AM
Honestly, my thought is that Kreia DID somehow bushwack Revan. And all those who didn't remember Carth was in K2? So sad, since Sbarge totally earned the paycheck with his scene, especially if you say Revan was LSF.

vanir
05-30-2009, 03:01 AM
When I first played K1 and I know, I know this is a little sad, but I kinda developed one of those silly little fantasies about Bastila that you do when you don't have a gf, and what honestly blew me away, because I wasn't into the community and had no idea was that an actual romance developed in the game. Honestly I started wearing a tin foil hat. But then I was just tremendously impressed with the game which instantly shot to my all time favourite.

Playing TSL it was quickly obvious your choices/results in K1 were being tested early in the game. Light Side. Male. Easy, all I did was read and answer honestly. Hell that's how I played the first game, do what I would do.

Thing is though I still haven't unlocked all the dialogue options in TSL and of course have seen neither hide nor hare of any DS options since I do just go through RPG doing things I would do. That's the escapism for me.
The only way I've known about some dialogue options and gaming content is through the community, and some of them I still haven't unlocked or experienced simply because they arrive by choices that, when I'm actually in the game my character simply wouldn't do.
I knew Kreia was a Sith right from the getgo. Didn't talk to her much. Went after Handmaiden and Visas like a guided missile though. Didn't trust Visas at first but when I unlocked her personal story...well I was a bit miffed at the rape allegory by Nihilus and this event really brought me into the game. I was like a man possessed for the rest of it, determined fully to carve him into lightsabred meat patties for such an act, and totally dedicated to Visas' well being and protection. My only disappointment was that he turned out to be such a wuss and then this whole irrelevent thing with volcano breath and the hag was just boring, repetitive hack and slash with plainly no point, as it was plainly an epilogue more like a playable cut scene than anything else.
So the story for me really ended on the Ravager and it was entirely inadequate, with no follow up and conclusion with Visas. I'd rather have gone to an epilogue of a marriage ceremony with Visas and some dialogue interaction with Carth and Bastila, along with an attempt at some non-combat RP choices relating to civilian life for a sense of closure, than that annoying Malachor ranting hack and slash over who cares what (one day I'll make a mod for this).

You see I think RP is partly about playing style. And hot chicks. And you actually have to be less "there" to be so explorative in your options that you experience what the gaming engine, rather than your character's individual story has to offer. Inherently more limited, but also far more personal.

Most of these gamers who gave Shem those comments obviously played dark siders, by choice or complacency (like there's a difference). Their playing style I dare say is as condascending and dismissive as they are as human beings; they've a lot to learn as people and the type of game which is RPG in general reflects this for them. It is totally appropriate.

Our gaming group used to get the occasional addition who was more into sports spectating, bullying their way through life and generally being expectant of others join a session. The cost of their life choices are no imagination and the social development of a pirahna. They'd play one session, couldn't get into it, felt like a fool, found it boring or embarressing, couldn't handle party arguments without knocking heads for real and never returned, half the time breaking something like someone's mum's window with a shoe.

Now with video games you get many more people with no imagination getting involved. They're not really RP'ers and play them like an action-pausable FPS before going back to their regular FPS, which they consider RPG.

Shem
06-03-2009, 02:23 AM
About six hours ago I got this comment:

"intersting..i never could get this..does Revan have to have been male to get this scene? my Revan's a girl."

Again, someone didn't read the dialogue choices when talking to Atton. It does make me curious to how many 1000's of people skipped over that one.

Totenkopf
06-03-2009, 04:23 AM
They're not really RP'ers and play them like an action-pausable FPS before going back to their regular FPS, which they consider RPG.

After you play RPGs enough times, they're little better than FPS's with a storyline you still like. Still, KOTOR was probably the first RPG I think I've played. Seems a waste to only explore the same set of options over and over when there are often a lot of choices to make in a game. Even toward the end (last summer), as many times as I'd played either of the two, I occasionally ran across a piece of dialogue I'd missed. If you're going to treat the rpg like an fps, at least explore your options before going to default mode.

Shem
06-04-2009, 01:55 AM
I was getting ready for another update to "What Game Did You Play" thread I have going and ran across some more interesting comments.

More about the Bastila is Kreia rumors:

"yuppp. canderous is mandalore, kreia is bastilla."

"bastilla=krea main guy from #1=revan=main guy from #2 Canderous=Mandalore"

Queries about character outcomes:

"okay wat happened to bastila? is she still alive?"


Of course, more queries because of dialogue skipping (or picking blindly) when the Exile talks to Atton on Peragus:

"this is gonna sound stupid but i know how to decide if revans a guy or a girl but not if there light side or dark. so when do i get this option?"

"ok people. when i play knights of the old republic 2 i know how to decide if revan was a male or a female. aparently there is a way to decide if revan was light or dark side but i dont know what part this is or if i just havent realised ive been deciding. do you decide or is it based upon wether you are light or dark?"

"i saw bastila in kotor 2, i dont get it, i mean i can kill bastila so they shouldnt put here in kotor 2 to make it a lot less confusing"

"And how do I unlock all the stuff with Carth and Bastila? I've never seen anything in the game about them, really."



So is this a reason why so many people hated TSL? I mean is it the game's fault that people decided not to read the dialogue in a role playing game:

"ok this is the part of KOTOR2 that really [ticks] me off you don't see any of your old crew member of the ebon hawk EG - Carth, Bastilla, Canderous exctera....

Shem
06-05-2009, 03:39 AM
I got this quote after someone saw one of my videos of Carth meeting the Exile currently less than an hour ago:

"How do you get this cutscene? i have never seen this one"

Jedi Homer
06-05-2009, 12:36 PM
I just finished TSL last week and it was clear to me something was wrong with the game. So I went looking and thankfully found Wookipaedia and also TehPrincessJ and JediShemL at You Tube. I didn't know till I ran across this thread that Shem = JediShemL. So thanks very much for all the time and effort putting up those videos, they really help to fill in the blanks, (so many blanks *sob*).

Comprehension:
Anyway during my initial search for stuff on the cut ending I was on another TSL forum (cant remeber which one, so cant provide link), and someone posted about Kreia's prophecy for PC's friends.

The next post was something like this (paraphrased):

What! I've played Tsl 2 times, when does Kreia tell you about you're Friends?

No they weren't joking. Now how could you possibly miss it? Iirc 2 of the 4 options in the last dialogue lead to this, and you can go through the whole dialogue twice. I was dumbfounded.

Atton dailogue choices:
I never played KOTOR, and only recently picked up TSL because a friend told me KOTOR was excellent but nothing about the game. So when I encountered these choices I was a little confused i.e. 'why are they asking me for history I know nothing about? Who's this Revan person?' The information available to you through TSL is minimal at that stage. But I did suspect that it was to set something up, so I just set Revan to opposite my character and thought 'I'll find out'.

Really though I only found out the significance of these choices through Shem's videos etc. So I think you can forgive the section of the community thats like me.

Having said that I dont think the order of questions would make a difference. You either realise something significant is being asked or you don't. These are fairly bald untypical questions, and if you played KOTOR I think the link is fairly obvious.

So is this a reason why so many people hated TSL? I mean is it the game's fault that people decided not to read the dialogue in a role playing game:

TSL is a subtle game. But I've seen posts and walkthroughs that will have something like this Kreia 'blah blah'. Kreia is very like Delenn in B5, she carries the burden of exposition. If you aren't listening to npc's, especially Kreia, you miss half the game, because this is where many of the themes are introduced and explored. Master Vrook is another example, many hate him so disregard what he has to say. I didn't like him either, but some of the things he says is quite illuminating. This is my round about way of agreeing with Shem that many of those that hate TSL simply haven't noticed the story because they have disregarded the dialogue.

Some recent players of PlaneScape: Torment post that it has no story. Yet its probably the finest story crafted for a cg to date (Chris Avellone co-wrote it).

These commentators are probably combat or build-centric and if thats the way they want to play thats fine, but they shouldn't mistake their play style for the story. I could go on here but it will lead to NWN, WoW and TOR so I'll stop.

Anyway in closing let me say that you should check out Shem's channel page and two vids on it 'Darth Vader in Love' and 'Atton's Death Scene Animated'. One made me laugh the other brought a tear to my eye.

Cheers.

Ping
06-05-2009, 04:00 PM
So is this a reason why so many people hated TSL? I mean is it the game's fault that people decided not to read the dialogue in a role playing game:
Now I know why everyone hated TSL. It wasn't because of the crapload of stuff that was cut, it was because a crapload of people ignore everything in the game. ;)

Shem
06-16-2009, 10:57 PM
Here are a couple of comments in the last couple of days that added to the list of people who are lost in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Fxc6tdmRm0

Though you never talk to Bastila, but see her, here is one of them:

"wow [crap] you can talk to Bastilla in this game? o.O"

Here is another person who played the game, but obviously did not redeem her:

"wait... but didnt bastila turn evil?? how is she here?"