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Miltiades
05-14-2009, 12:55 PM
Death in RPG's and MMORPG's have, for the most part, been handled conservatively. How do you think it should be handled in The Old Republic?

An example would be a World of Warcraft style of death, where you resurrect as a Force Ghost (Jedi/Sith characters) and need to find your corpse, or some kind of quest.

An other example would be respawning to the closest city or town.

Discuss!

Alkonium
05-14-2009, 01:12 PM
Well, since people seldom get resurrected in Star Wars, I'd suggest something similar to what they do in Lotro, and instead say that the character is incapacitated, and then retreats to a nearby town/outpost.

Drev2
05-14-2009, 03:56 PM
I think they should make a penalty for dieing such as losing 5-10% exp. This is hopefully prevent people from doing stupid stuff to get themselves and others killed as they will lose something. Without a penalty people will continue to do things they normally wouldn't because death won't affect them.

jrrtoken
05-14-2009, 05:05 PM
I think that the whole ghost scenario would get quite tedious, especially after multiple deaths. I've played enough of The Sims to know that to be a fact. To be honest, respawning would be the least annoying of all.

Miltiades
05-14-2009, 05:20 PM
Well, we'll have to see how gameplay and story go together, but if you're going from plot element to plot element, I imagine having to respawn and going through those plot elements again could be quite tedious as well. But I agree the ghost scenario will definitely annoy after a few times.

From the possible scenarios I've read, I find the Guild Wars scenario the best so far, where you get a death penalty (say -10% health and mana/force points) which you need to get rid of by gaining experience. A scenario in which you lose part of your items/loot, as I've read somewhere else, is not so cool, for sure. :p

Rathoris
05-14-2009, 06:16 PM
perma death!
Ok seriously: the guild wars system was pretty ok but it worked well because Guild Wars was heavily instanced. I'm hoping TOR will feature a much more open world. If you get down to it WoW's system is pretty good tbh.

Miltiades
05-14-2009, 06:25 PM
perma death!
Ok seriously: the guild wars system was pretty ok but it worked well because Guild Wars was heavily instanced. I'm hoping TOR will feature a much more open world. If you get down to it WoW's system is pretty good tbh. Yeah, I guess I ignored GW's instancing.

WraithPrince
05-14-2009, 06:44 PM
Well you could combine the idea of the shrines in GW with the Death Penalty in WoW where you die go to nearest shrine or last one you got close enough to to trigger it, then when you die you warp there and have -15% stats for like 5-10 mins.

Hallucination
05-14-2009, 06:44 PM
I'm hoping for a system can gives you a reason not to die without it being a heavy penalty, so maybe a financial/experience/temporary stats penalty.
Well, since people seldom get resurrected in Star Wars, I'd suggest something similar to what they do in Lotro, and instead say that the character is incapacitated, and then retreats to a nearby town/outpost.
That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Seriously, you're in a war with evil guys who can never kill you?

Jeff
05-14-2009, 10:17 PM
I think in Star Wars it makes more sense to get transported back to a city or something instead of having to be a ghost and retrieve your corpse. Of course, I never die in video games (as Niner can attest to) so I won't have to worry about this no matter what they do.

Lord of Hunger
05-14-2009, 10:26 PM
I say you should loose experience, all your health, and all your items except for equipment (as your clothes, lightsaber, armor, other weapons, implants, mask, belt, etc..). Essentially if you have money and a quest item it gets looted.

WraithPrince
05-14-2009, 10:52 PM
Losing money from death? that would just make people have a trip to the bank before they go out and PvE or PvP....

Hallucination
05-15-2009, 12:10 AM
Unless the money was taken from your bank. Or, like in most larger MMO's, money isn't put into the bank.

Jae Onasi
05-15-2009, 12:23 AM
I say you should loose experience, all your health, and all your items except for equipment (as your clothes, lightsaber, armor, other weapons, implants, mask, belt, etc..). Essentially if you have money and a quest item it gets looted.
I'd never play the game if it was like that. How would anyone ever get through the game if that happened, especially when the game was new and no one had a wikia-gaming site to tell them exactly what to do at every moment, and they died a lot more often?

SW01
05-15-2009, 03:30 AM
I'd never play the game if it was like that. How would anyone ever get through the game if that happened, especially when the game was new and no one had a wikia-gaming site to tell them exactly what to do at every moment, and they died a lot more often?

I agree with this - that seems far, far too harsh, considering it's necessarily part of any game (especially any sort of open, non-linear RPG) to at times bite off far more than you can chew.

In my only experiences with any kinds of online games, I saw two different forms of penalty - losing 10% exp (after having passed a particular level - below that, no exp loss), or in the other (SFCIII - not an MMO, but some similar elements) loss of ship and a huge debt of 'prestige' (money, essentially). The latter was essentially a 'game over'. Really, I wouldn't care to see that kind of system return.

I would personally prefer to see the exp penalty, as it does dissuade you from doing silly things, but doesn't put you in the position of feeling the need to restart the game in order to have a hope of proceeding.

Tommycat
05-15-2009, 03:35 AM
Well there is something to be said for having a death penalty. I mean For instance Star Wars Galaxies the death penalty was so low as to not exist. It became a joke of taking the cloner express to your home town rather than wasting cash on a ticket.

You should wake up in the nearest hospital. Your gear and inventory should be in a locker right next to where you wake up. You pick everything up and re-equip everything. That way you have more or less a time penalty as you have to grab and equip. Yet it isn't so cruel that you unsub and uninstall. It also has a benefit of being semi-realistic.

People who are for truly harsh death penalties forget a few very important things. Internet connections are not always up 100%. Heck I had a situation where I was in the middle of an instance I could beat with my eyes closed. Some drunk driver hit the ped out by my house. Internet connection(as well as phone and cable) was down for days. When I logged back in, my toon was all corpsified and gross. Couldn't have been smellin too good either since ya know it had been a couple of days without refrigeration. BUT fortunately I didn't lose anything. How about when you get a power hit to your house. How about a million other things that could cause you to die in game other than not being UB3R 1337 enough.

leXX
05-15-2009, 06:41 AM
I think the best death penalty I've come across so far is in Fable 2, where you get a physical scar on your character if you die. It works extremely well as a deterrent. It would work even better in an mmo, as other people can get a good idea of how many times you've died just by looking at you. You could have to go to a bacta tank or something to get them removed, for a very high price of course.

Rathoris
05-15-2009, 08:46 AM
meh, you tend to die alot in MMO's so people would look horrible.
Losing xp/gear/money etc are just going to annoy the **** out of people.
Can't you just wake up in a bacta tank, float in it for a minute or 2, get ur gear back from a locker and get back at it.
It's abit casual perhaps but alot more fun :)

WraithPrince
05-15-2009, 08:51 AM
I think the best death penalty I've come across so far is in Fable 2, where you get a physical scar on your character if you die. It works extremely well as a deterrent. It would work even better in an mmo, as other people can get a good idea of how many times you've died just by looking at you. You could have to go to a bacta tank or something to get them removed, for a very high price of course.

Lol I can see people at max level trying to see how beat up they can look when they are bored xD

Tommycat
05-16-2009, 12:55 AM
Lol I can see people at max level trying to see how beat up they can look when they are bored xD

Hmmmm I'd end up looking like a reaver.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7a/Fireflyreaver.jpg

Steve-O Kreesh
05-16-2009, 11:52 AM
Losing items when you die is a good idea. Losing items like medipacks or spare lightsaber parts is fine, but I don't think you should lose key/quest items if you die. Once you get those, you have them for the rest of the game.

Rake
05-17-2009, 01:03 AM
One of the main issues that really annoys me is a death penalty. Something like the world of warcraft penalty (weapon/armor durability reduction) is what I think should be the max. An experience or item penalty, would just be tedious, annoying, and not fun.

TSR
05-17-2009, 07:43 PM
If there is a god it won't be like the SWG death/respawn scenario.

Jae Onasi
05-17-2009, 11:05 PM
I like GW's and LOTRO's death penalty--GW you have a temporary reduction in hit points and energy pool until you 'work it off' by killing more stuff. In LOTRO you have a temporary decrease in morale (hit points) for about 10 minutes. No stuff gets broken or disappears, although in LOTRO it gets damaged (and you have to pay to repair it). Both of these dp's work for me--it doesn't get in the way of gameplay in any excessive way (at least, not often), both games have special items you can earn/buy to erase the dp, and neither scenarios affect your gold, inventory, or xp. It's enough of a deterrent to keep death counts lower, (though we have our share of Kilroys) but not affect gameplay in an obnoxious way. It also allows farming runs--let's face it--if you want to make any in-game gold, at some point you have to farm items of some kind or another.

Hallucination
05-17-2009, 11:25 PM
I like GW's and LOTRO's death penalty--GW you have a temporary reduction in hit points and energy pool until you 'work it off' by killing more stuff. In LOTRO you have a temporary decrease in morale (hit points) for about 10 minutes
So like WoW, only after WoW. :P

True_Avery
05-18-2009, 01:44 AM
Knocked out, Kolto tank heal in local med station, keep fighting. They'll probably have adrenaline packs or something to stim knocked out players into consciousness, and most likely Force Powers for that purpose as well. Jedi will most likely have a Healer tree, like WoW Paladins.

Other than that, the typical reduction in stats for a limited amount of time after death and so on.

CommanderQ
05-18-2009, 01:52 AM
My first look at this thread gave me a morbid feeling....but reading it has changed that, so...nevermind:D


I'd think that if they follow traditional MMO death, they'd probably respawn you to some nearby city or health facility. But you'd probably lose equipment and that would be unfortunate...

But personally, I'd think it would be pretty cool if you just continue on as a ghost, until you reach some certain objective, or place. That would be fun:D

stoffe
05-18-2009, 06:50 AM
It also allows farming runs--let's face it--if you want to make any in-game gold, at some point you have to farm items of some kind or another.

I'm hoping this would not be necessary in MMOTOR; that you could earn enough credits by doing something more interesting than kill the same group of monsters over and over and over and over and over.... But that's probably wishful thinking, grind can keep players occupied much longer than any real content that would take more of an effort on the developers' side to produce.


(Guild Wars is a textbook example of how not to do it in this regard. Not only does the game actively discourage team play by penalizing players with less loot and XP when teaming up with others. All its quests and missions give pathetic rewards compared to what you can earn in the same amount of time by simply slaughtering the same group of monsters over and over -- using a specialized character build that essentially equals God Mode against that type of enemy, involving little risk and no effort other than the ability not to fall asleep from tedium. :))

Hallucination
05-18-2009, 02:46 PM
Even if TOR is designed to not be a grind there would still be one way of making money that is better than most, and players would farm that, and then prices would rise because people who are willing to grind will be able to pay more to get what they want, and that will make other players grind to get the same stuff.

Darth Avlectus
05-21-2009, 01:25 AM
While losning exp points and currency might have been an understandable feature of an action/rpg type of game like CastleVania 2: Simon's Quest...but even that can be quite annoying and frustrating even for just an old NES game circa 1988. Now if there was some kind of storage safehouse for goodies, I'd be aight with that.

If you lost your weapons...well crap...I'd be too afraid to use my lightsaber if it as much of a biatch to obtain as it was in the kotor games... Or any good armor. Call me a cheap azz jew bastard, but I have numerous times made stupid mistakes, or even just inevitably tired out and lost.



Maybe respawn outside in front of coruscant hospital? (it worked for GTA games :xp:)

Tommycat
05-21-2009, 02:14 AM
So like WoW, only after WoW. :P

Which was like Evercrack only after Evercrack. (WoW as a game was, not the Death penalty).

The death penalty for WoW was kinda between SWG and EQ.

LordOfTheFish
05-21-2009, 01:50 PM
I was hoping for something similiar to Kotor's style.

Instead of dieing, you would be knocked unconsious for a certain number of seconds. Then, once you health bar has reached a certain percent, you would be slowly revived, with slightly restricted movement.

Web Rider
05-24-2009, 06:27 PM
It depends on a few things, IMO.

One, is PVP. If the world is essentially your own, like Guild Wars or an SRPG, with multiplayer only being in certain sections, or the option of turning PvP off, then an XP penalty for death is acceptable, though I would hope respawning would place you somewhere "safe" so the same mob or boss that killed you wouldn't keep doing it. As well, this XP loss should never go into negative XP, and you shouldn't lose levels for it. Sure, this means that at lvl 20 with 30 XP points, you could die a lot and the penalty really wouldn't matter to you.

I do like WoW's ability to choose to run back to your corpse, and the "resurrection sickness" for reviving at the healer. It gives you a choice between wanting to continue trying at whatever you were doing, and taking a break, and I like that.

If there is PvP anywhere in the gameworld(and no way to avoid it), then there should be no death penalty. Punishing people for other people wanting to kill you is stupid and only going to piss people off when the inevitable max-level players decide they're bored and want to go kill lowbies.

If there is a death penalty, there should be a way to get bonus xp. In video games, button combos make you attacks "cooler" and therefore grant you more XP. Depending on the number of attacks you have, the same could be done for TOR. Do X move and then Y move and then A move and you get 200% xp. If they're going to punish us for not playing well(which is what dying essentially means), then they should reward us for playing well.

Jeff
05-24-2009, 06:31 PM
In video games, button combos make you attacks "cooler" and therefore grant you more XP. Depending on the number of attacks you have, the same could be done for TOR. Do X move and then Y move and then A move and you get 200% xp. If they're going to punish us for not playing well(which is what dying essentially means), then they should reward us for playing well.Is TOR not a video game? :p

Web Rider
05-25-2009, 02:13 AM
Is TOR not a video game? :p

Shoulda said "console game" as computer games rarely have button-combo moves, at least not as commonly as console games.

Trench
05-25-2009, 03:44 AM
I personally think that the best approach to death would be the way it is done in the KotOR games. This is supposed to be a spin-off of those games right? But I'm still the new guy here, so I don't really know what I'm talking about.

Rathoris
05-25-2009, 04:56 PM
you can't reload in an MMO unfortunatly :P

Nedak
05-25-2009, 05:03 PM
I hope it's like in SWG. ;)

Blix
05-25-2009, 05:42 PM
Death in RPG's and MMORPG's have, for the most part, been handled conservatively. How do you think it should be handled in The Old Republic?

An example would be a World of Warcraft style of death, where you resurrect as a Force Ghost (Jedi/Sith characters) and need to find your corpse, or some kind of quest.

An other example would be respawning to the closest city or town.

Discuss!

Hmm that's a very interesting concept you have there (i.e. force ghost and all). Personally I've yet to play an MMO or MMORPG, but from what I hear dying is a HUGE setback, perhaps things have changed a bit from back then idk. But for TOR the idea of coming back as a force ghost to find and re-assume your old body is good one, I mean it's a game that people will be paying their hard earned money for and it wouldn't be fair for the player to have to start over from scratch (levels and all) simply because their character death/resurrection didn't fit normal Star Wars canon (or however you would phrase it). Besides, your idea sounds a lot better than simply getting a "game over" screen and prompted to retry :p

Trench
05-26-2009, 01:33 AM
you can't reload in an MMO unfortunatly :P

I apologize if I was unclear. But what I meant was that, instead of actually dieing, your character falls unconscious. Or maybe they could revitalize themselves with the force.

gianner
05-26-2009, 07:13 AM
Or maybe they could revitalize themselves with the force.

That is not an option. Not everyone will be or wants to be a force sensitive...

Trench
05-26-2009, 12:24 PM
That is not an option. Not everyone will be or wants to be a force sensitive...

What if they had a force sensitive in their party?

Miltiades
05-26-2009, 02:09 PM
Yeah, while a Force Ghost or Force Revitalize would fit in easily with TOR, it only works for Force sensitives. And I have no idea for something similar for non-Force sensitives. A party member with Force Powers probably will have limits on his resurrection skill, so there must be a "standard" way of dying and reviving.

Hallucination
05-26-2009, 07:35 PM
What if they had a force sensitive in their party?
What if they didn't? Or maybe they weren't not even in a party? Spamming for a Jedi to join your party and come to rez you would really suck.

glovemaster
06-03-2009, 06:24 AM
I'd imagine there'd be a healing-specific class, and you'll get spamming for healers regardless :p

Saenjaina
06-03-2009, 07:14 PM
Having only read a few posts in this thread, my immediate thought would include being incapacitated, and then being dragged to the nearest resurrection facility housing a number of Bacta tanks. Quite conventional and in line with the Star Wars universe I'd think.

I take it that they had this technology also at this time. :)

Mav
06-04-2009, 04:09 AM
When you die, your character should be deleted from the server... What? BioWare wants all your actions to have an effect...

Hallucination
06-04-2009, 07:19 PM
I'd imagine there'd be a healing-specific class, and you'll get spamming for healers regardless :p
I was referring to the fact that Te Melanin Man o' War mentioned that revitalisation through the Force could be the only logical way to be revived, which would mean that everyone would be dependent on Jedi to get back to playing. Can you imagine how dull it would be being completely unable to play due to being unable to find a Jedi willing to rez you? ;)

Trench
06-04-2009, 09:13 PM
I was referring to the fact that Te Melanin Man o' War mentioned that revitalization through the Force could be the only logical way to be revived, which would mean that everyone would be dependent on Jedi to get back to playing. Can you imagine how dull it would be being completely unable to play due to being unable to find a Jedi willing to rez you? ;)

Was that supposed to be my name? Anyway, I also offered the suggestion that they could just fall unconscious like in the KotOR games, then after a while their found by some medical droid or something. Or maybe a medical droid could be like a puppet to a certain party member, or come from your ship/base to revive you once it figures out that your vitals are down.
And please, copy and paste my name next time:lol:.

lukeiamyourdad
06-05-2009, 01:05 AM
I think getting back to base is a good idea. Simple but effective.

Losing experience is EQ-ish. What if some part was very difficult and caused you to die a lot? What if you sort of suck at the game and die so much that at a certain point, quests don't allow you to gather enough experience to level properly?

An extreme situation, certainly, but some food for thought.

You are going to die often in an MMO. Let's not make people want to punch a puppy because they died.

Tommycat
06-05-2009, 04:00 AM
Let's not make people want to punch a puppy because they died.

Yeah if they want to punch puppies it should be for other reasons.

Nemez0r
06-05-2009, 05:37 AM
No exp loss... thats rly ANNOYING... just like... be transported to a nearby medical facility (kolto tank? bacta tank? cloned like in galaxies?)

Saenjaina
06-05-2009, 06:48 AM
I doubt the idea of cloning. At least I think it's a bad idea. Some would feel like 'cheating the system' (thereby taking on somewhat a RP position). But in comparison to the movies. Take the movies as an example. It would be kind of less exciting if Luke, Han, Leia or someone else died, and were simply cloned back. Now I now these are the conditions in SWG, and that there was also all that clone stuff going on with the Emporer in the extended universe. The point is, we aren't all Cylons. There should be a uniqueness connected to our lives in the game.

To get back on track.

I think the idea of being incapacitated is good, since it doesn't offend the 'realism'. A fair punishment could include being dragged to a medical facility (Bacta, bacta and more bacta), having you to travel back to your previous location yourself. Either with or without your equipment (lootable tombstone at death-scene?).

Nemez0r
06-05-2009, 09:18 AM
yeah cloning IS sorta stupid... I like the idea of 'dying' (incapacitation) and then appear on a medical facility somewhere... fresh out of the bacta tank

Hallucination
06-05-2009, 12:06 PM
I think the idea of being incapacitated is good, since it doesn't offend the 'realism'.
As I mentioned before, the game would seem a lot less real if you were in a deadly fight against an enemy who could never actually manage to kill you.

glovemaster
06-05-2009, 12:34 PM
As I mentioned before, the game would seem a lot less real if you were in a deadly fight against an enemy who could never actually manage to kill you.

Like a Gizka? :p If i see a "Kill 10 Gizka's quest" then Bioware will have failed me >.<

Nemez0r
06-06-2009, 01:56 AM
Gizkas are very very DEADLY... small, but DEADLY

GreyJediMaster
06-09-2009, 11:18 AM
the whole bacta tank - hospital thingy sounds good - what if there were medical ships from each side, in orbit above every planet in the game, picking people up? and every time you die, you wake up on one of these ships, and then have to explain to them what happened, and then ( for medical reasons or whatever) have to be held there for a bunch of hours/minuites?

Lukarnus
06-30-2009, 07:54 AM
Persnally i think a time based DP is the best one. When you die you res at the nearest outpost with a 15 minute death penalty of -10% wounds or stats with an option to clear this at a healer for a charge. Unless you are ressed by a team member when this could be reduced to 30 seconds.

This is how it works in Warhammer Online PVE and makes for a much faster style of play. You can get straight back into the action and if you die again you can always clear the dp by visiting the healer.

TSR
06-30-2009, 08:10 AM
How about just not getting killed? :D

What would be great if the death scenes were in context to your situation. i.e, if you are in a party, you could have a GoW2 style "crawl to a teammate" vibe.

Going solo? maybe you could have an upgradeable ability or item that sends out a becon when you are dead/incapacitated to call a medic crew- sith or republic, depending on alliance ofc.

Just some more for the pool.