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Mandalore The Shadow
05-17-2009, 08:10 PM
I am interested to see some peoples viewas on the Occult and the Paranormal. I myself am a practicing Witch and am interested in other areas of the Occult.

Jae Onasi
05-17-2009, 08:56 PM
Moved to Kavar's. Carry on! :)

Boba Rhett
05-17-2009, 09:51 PM
I believe the most important issue here is whether or not you ascribe to a Dumbledore or Grindelwald train of thought.


Edit: Also, a Psy-Vampire? Really?


"Call me Vampir from now on, per se. You know that girl Bella in Twilight? I think I'm like her. I'm a psi vampire. Do you like the sparkles I got?"

Q
05-17-2009, 10:14 PM
Are you a good witch or a bad witch?

Web Rider
05-17-2009, 10:19 PM
That depends on if you're a "witch" in the spell casting sense, or a "witch" in the new-agey mumbo-jumbo kind that's an herbalist with a funny name.

EnderWiggin
05-17-2009, 10:51 PM
I myself am a practicing Witch and am interested in other areas of the Occult.
:confused:

Don't hex me, but I have to say: seriously?

_EW_

Darth Avlectus
05-18-2009, 12:16 AM
^^^Seconded...

True_Avery
05-18-2009, 12:38 AM
:confused:

Don't hex me, but I have to say: seriously?

_EW_
First: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca

Second: That is hardly as surprising as hearing someone claim they believe a man walked on water, turned water into wine, and then died for our sins.

Three: Other than a fascination with the lore of the occult and fantasy, I don't practice any of it as a philosophy and/or religion.

Q
05-18-2009, 01:08 AM
Where are vanir and Allronix when we need them? :giveup:

I don't believe that practicing witchcraft automatically makes you a Wiccan. AFAIK, Wicca is actually quite new, whereas witchcraft itself is ancient and very diverse. I doubt that it could ever be contained in a singular belief system.


EDIT:
Edit: Also, a Psy-Vampire? Really?
Say what? :confused:

True_Avery
05-18-2009, 02:51 AM
I don't believe that practicing witchcraft automatically makes you a Wiccan. AFAIK, Wicca is actually quite new, whereas witchcraft itself is ancient and very diverse. I doubt that it could ever be contained in a singular belief system.
It doesn't automatically. Just showing a religion in which it does so the OP isn't considered a joke.

RedHawke
05-18-2009, 03:14 AM
Edit: Also, a Psy-Vampire? Really?
A being, not necessarily immortal, that feeds upon an others life force instead of blood, or so I have read. ;)

Qui-Gon Glenn
05-18-2009, 07:09 AM
I am interested to see some peoples viewas on the Occult and the Paranormal. I myself am a practicing Witch and am interested in other areas of the Occult.
Really open ended question, which might seem good for discussion, but it is so broad a topic in the way you have it phrased...
:confused:

Don't hex me, but I have to say: seriously?

_EW_
So cute.

First: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca

Second: That is hardly as surprising as hearing someone claim they believe a man walked on water, turned water into wine, and then died for our sins.

Three: Other than a fascination with the lore of the occult and fantasy, I don't practice any of it as a philosophy and/or religion.
1- As others have noted, witch does not imply Wiccan. Good simple background though on a "New Religious Movement".
2- Thank you. Transmutation every Sunday.
3- Mostly agreed. I have hope for some prophecies, although I laugh at myself for stocking them :)

My mother is an educated woman with an impressive resume. She believes in parallel universes, aliens, ascendancy, channeling, and is currently retired but still working, now as a massage therapist and Reiki Master.

I think she's a little nutty! She also was an incredible teacher, an 8 year member of the Michigan state senate, and no dummy.
I disagree with her on most of her beliefs, nearly all, but I cannot logically exclude anything.

There is always a chance that the sun will not rise tomorrow. I wouldn't recommend waiting for it, but who will tell me it's impossible? :)

Q
05-18-2009, 12:47 PM
Your mother sounds like a pretty dynamic individual.

I think that you have the right attitude about this stuff. We non-practitioners probably shouldn't put a whole lot of stock in it because none of it is provable, but I agree that we shouldn't disregard it completely, either.
It doesn't automatically. Just showing a religion in which it does so the OP isn't considered a joke.
OK. Didn't mean to get all semantic on you. :)
Edit: Also, a Psy-Vampire? Really?
A being, not necessarily immortal, that feeds upon an others life force instead of blood, or so I have read. ;)
Oh, well that would be about 90+% of the population, wouldn't it? :p

Mandalore The Shadow
05-18-2009, 08:33 PM
Yes I am i have only been practicing for a short time and am glad i wasnt stoned for saying this

@Qliveur: Not realy Psy-Vampires do it conciously and to gain energy

Sabretooth
05-19-2009, 12:57 AM
Yes I am i have only been practicing for a short time and am glad i wasnt stoned for saying this

So, what do you get to do as a witch? Do you get to ride on brooms and lay curses of eternal damnation on people and hunt the book that reveals the name of God and will reverse all Creation?

Blix
05-19-2009, 01:41 AM
As an arrancar I'm also interested in the occult, primarily the one surrounding the "not fake" Blair Witch...

Qui-Gon Glenn
05-19-2009, 12:36 PM
Arrancar... did you mean Eckancar?

Not to burst your bubble here, but most people consider Eck a cult... including me.

Blix
05-19-2009, 12:40 PM
Arrancar... did you mean Eckancar?


Eckancar? Plz explain :confused:

EDIT: (couldn't find any pics)

Mandalore The Shadow
05-19-2009, 01:27 PM
I would like to talk about real things none of this Bleach nonsense

Jae Onasi
05-19-2009, 01:57 PM
Yes I am i have only been practicing for a short time and am glad i wasnt stoned for saying this

As Obama said, "We can disagree without being disagreeable." Flaming/baiting comments will be quickly removed.

I have some good friends who are Wiccans, and while some of the stuff they do I think is a bit odd, it floats their boat. They're mostly into herbalism and respect for mother earth and all that. I also have a good friend who spent some time in the occult, until she had an experience so bad she claims she was physically hurt, and she got out of it immediately. Her story was just bizarre, even though she's not the type to get hysterical or tell outrageous tales. Regardless of whether her re-telling was accurate, though, her experience was bad. Not all of the people who practice the occult arts do so for positive reasons. Some are in it to outright do harm. Learn the difference and stay away from the bad ones. My Wiccan friends were pretty frank about the drugs and the sex parties. All I can say is 'don't be stupid.' If you're going to get involved in that kind of thing, avoid the drugs (which make you a lot more at risk for 'being stupid', aside from the illegality problem), and look up safe sex techniques on a reputable medical site like WebMD or talk to you medical professional. Follow their advice every time, not just 'most of the time'. You only need to do it one time to make a baby, get herpes, or acquire HIV. Be safe.

Web Rider
05-19-2009, 02:34 PM
I would like to talk about real things none of this Bleach nonsense

"Real" depends entirely on who you're asking and what you're asking about. Honestly, I can google and wiki Occult information all day, but it won't tell me anything about what you are. So, if you would indulge me, what kind of witch are you, what kind of occult are you into, as there is a great range of it all, and what parts of it do you or don't you take seriously?

Eckancar? Plz explain :confused:

EDIT: (couldn't find any pics)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eckankar

It was misspelled, but Wiki knew what it wanted. And somehow that's both cool and creepy.

It does sound like a new-agey cult, but then most new-age religions tend to give off that vibe. As I'm sure the "great" religions did back when they were started.

Qui-Gon Glenn
05-19-2009, 02:46 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eckankar

It was misspelled, but Wiki knew what it wanted. And somehow that's both cool and creepy.

It does sound like a new-agey cult, but then most new-age religions tend to give off that vibe. As I'm sure the "great" religions did back when they were started.

"Great" Religions? :confused: Or did you mean, "popular"?

I know what you are saying with the phrasing, but I rarely connote any greatness to any of the big religious movements of our history - except perhaps "great" artisanry, craftsmanship, storytelling and literary prowess.

Of course, that is off topic...

I agree with you Web Rider, I wish the OP would be more forthcoming with his own views and opinions, so we have a better frame of reference for actual discussion. Otherwise.... :huh?:

Mandalore The Shadow
05-19-2009, 08:18 PM
I am a lone witch i am not part of a coven and i am not facinated by herbalisem although i do find it interesting

I am into ghosts and vampires that is why i have decided to start practicing Psy-Vampirism

Blix
05-19-2009, 09:04 PM
Honestly I don't see how me saying I'm an arrancar is any different from MTS saying he/she is a witch other than the the term is slated from an anime (both concepts are derived from works of fiction/fantasy). But enough of that...

On topic, I'm particularly interested in demonology, particularly the Goetia and the Key of Solomon and the study of ghosts interests me as well. I haven't gotten the courage to brave a cemetery alone at night, but I have traveled to suspected haunted locations where I live.

@MTS isn't Psy-vamping just posi/negative energy feeding? More or less chi?

Q
05-19-2009, 09:23 PM
@Qliveur: Not realy Psy-Vampires do it conciously and to gain energy
In my experience, anyone who is not capable of true empathy already does that, just not consciously.

Web Rider
05-19-2009, 10:22 PM
Honestly I don't see how me saying I'm an arrancar is any different from MTS saying he/she is a witch other than the the term is slated from an anime (both concepts are derived from works of fiction/fantasy). But enough of that...
The concept of a witch isn't derived from works of fiction/fantasy. It's derived from superstition, some of which has shoddy, though existent, proof throughout history for the probable existance of "witchcraft". Just like the evidence supporting prayer and miracles.

I do however, believe that, given The Shadow's testimony, they are quite deluded.

vanir
05-19-2009, 11:47 PM
As Obama said, "We can disagree without being disagreeable." Flaming/baiting comments will be quickly removed.

I have some good friends who are Wiccans, and while some of the stuff they do I think is a bit odd, it floats their boat. They're mostly into herbalism and respect for mother earth and all that. I also have a good friend who spent some time in the occult, until she had an experience so bad she claims she was physically hurt, and she got out of it immediately. Her story was just bizarre, even though she's not the type to get hysterical or tell outrageous tales. Regardless of whether her re-telling was accurate, though, her experience was bad. Not all of the people who practice the occult arts do so for positive reasons. Some are in it to outright do harm. Learn the difference and stay away from the bad ones. My Wiccan friends were pretty frank about the drugs and the sex parties. All I can say is 'don't be stupid.' If you're going to get involved in that kind of thing, avoid the drugs (which make you a lot more at risk for 'being stupid', aside from the illegality problem), and look up safe sex techniques on a reputable medical site like WebMD or talk to you medical professional. Follow their advice every time, not just 'most of the time'. You only need to do it one time to make a baby, get herpes, or acquire HIV. Be safe.

Very nicely said Jae, and a level headed, accurate rendition of genuine concerns.

Mr Shadow, you should understand the difference between using and learning something. Can doesn't mean should. And where Enlightenment is concerned it is not something you can conquer. It is a description others provide you. Not an establishment, not even a status, it is an appreciation and really means something like, "hey that person's pretty cool in my eyes."

Now I could explain mikkyo for you to wield (I'm a ten year practitioner, not a tauting rendition but it simply means I'm somewhat familiar) but here is the interesting thing about magic, usable superstition (misconceptions of the mundane). It is only a flavour for whom you already are, whom you would necessarily be in the first place. Most of it is actually about getting off your backside and getting into life to be an active member of society. The intention of most of it is to help you, where maybe you were a little on the outside before. It is for off centre personalities. This psy-vampire thing? Like choosing lollies in a candy store? Doesn't work the instant someone chooses to remove their boundaries when facing you. I've met more than a few, and mate, they *could* be pretty intimidating if I let them and just a pack of weedy goths the moment I had a good reason to crack it with them (actually they turned out to be jerks). Several cults are entirely dependent upon the patience and forgiving nature of others, you should understand this going in.
Most of what you think is an amazing realisation following years of study your average labourer learns under his belt on his first day in the workplace.

Humility should be the first lesson of any occultist. It is after all, the single most important thing to know.

Q
05-20-2009, 12:24 AM
Speaking of psy-vampires, I think that LF already has one of those. :p

Jae Onasi
05-20-2009, 12:58 AM
Speaking of psy-vampires, I think that LF already has one of those. :p
We try hard to get rid of the pornbots as quickly as possible, but I gotta sleep sometime. ;P

Assuming one can actually steal life energy, how would one defend the morality/ethics of taking something from someone else without their permission, and possibly harming them in the process?

True_Avery
05-20-2009, 01:11 AM
Assuming one can actually steal life energy, how would one defend the morality/ethics of taking something from someone else without their permission, and possibly harming them in the process?
I'm assuming in the same we we justify taking something from a human or an animal on a daily basis. That shirt was cheap, but that "Made in China" print means more than we try to think about on a moment by moment basis.

If they need to absorb life energy to live... why not. We eat cows and we don't seem to care too much about them seeing as most people see humans as some imaginary tier higher than everything else.

Web Rider
05-20-2009, 01:29 AM
I'm assuming in the same we we justify taking something from a human or an animal on a daily basis. That shirt was cheap, but that "Made in China" print means more than we try to think about on a moment by moment basis.

If they need to absorb life energy to live... why not. We eat cows and we don't seem to care too much about them seeing as most people see humans as some imaginary tier higher than everything else.

Well, presumably because we don't live in a "just because you can" world. There are laws in at least some parts of it, and to drain one's energies, assuming they need these things to function and care about them lacking, would be tantamount to draining a more physical thing like blood w/o permission.

Of course, if we do live in a world that operates in the same vein as you describe, then if the psy-vamp has the "right" to take my life-energy, then I have the right to deprive him of his life. The latter is only a slightly larger deprivation than what he's doing, so the legitimacy of his action legitimizes mine.

Q
05-20-2009, 02:10 AM
If that is actually what a psy-vampire is (I have other names for them that are, shall we say, less flattering :p), then I've run into several of them in my lifetime and what vanir says about them is very true. They totally depend upon and exploit the limits that you put on yourself (such as your moral code) and if you lift those limits they very suddenly become powerless and even at your mercy (and when it comes to people like that, I'm fresh out :dev7: ). Because they can use both love and hate to their advantage, as well as trust, friendship, compassion and other forms of empathy, the best weapon against them is indifference. However, I consider such behavior to be nothing short of an act of war, and like Web Rider I think that it legitimizes any kind of reprisal short of violence, including stooping to even below their level because it is war, and people should not be allowed to profit from evil acts. Call it civic duty, if you will.

I wish that I could have read what vanir wrote above long ago, because it took me until my late twenties/early thirties to figure it out on my own. I've learned that I can't possess a universal moral code that I can apply when dealing with everyone. It's too impractical. I've found that I just have to deal with individuals on a case by case basis.

Allronix
05-20-2009, 02:32 AM
Where are vanir and Allronix when we need them? :giveup:


*laughter* Playing Sid Meier's Pirates and making plans to meet with my financial planner tomorrow to discuss socialy responsible investing. (I'm Socialist, not stupid).

Now, Crowley had the idea about "Do as thou wilt." However, Crowley was something of a scary, unfriendly dude. Gardner and his spiritual descendants have the rule of "As long as none are harmed, do as you will." The smart Pagan is going to pay a lot more attention to that first part of the clause, and make damn sure as little harm is done as possible. In my case, it's pointed me to all kinds of social justice and environmental activism.

Psy-Vampire? You really do not want the level of trouble that's going to bring you. Everything's got a price tag, and karma's a total shutta when she shows up to collect rent. I've seen energy-drainers try to feed on someone who knew what was up and fought back. Tended to turn out badly for the "vampire." while not all branches of Wicca believe in the Rule of Three, most everyone, Wiccan or not, understands that you reap what you sow. Be careful, then to make sure that what you're sowing is something you want.

I was fascinated with different belief systems, spells, and folk charms. However, I made the mistake of casting a curse once in a fit of anger. Landed an ex in the hospital. Yeah, could be coincidence, but I'm not a big believer in coincidence, especially with how I phrased said curse and how the doctors at the hospital described what was going on with the ex.

These days, I worship the Great Lady and her Consort, but tend to refrain from spell casting. Lots of potential to cause harm, which goes against the Rede and has potential to bite me in the ass. It's also unnecessary if there are concrete, non-supernatural ways to solve the issue - like working more hours or breaking out my toolkit to fix something myself.

vanir
05-20-2009, 02:33 AM
The physical mechanic of "stealing life energy" works on a Jungian basis (the collective subconscious) and upon these roots:

Scenario, the schoolyard bully flushes your head down the toilet, slams you into locker doors and generally terrorises you. After a time he can intimidate you with a single look. You bow your head, he lifts his, you feel a little sad around him, he feels very dominant around you. Sometimes you don't even need to be aware he is near, you can predict his approach by your own sudden, inexplicable downturn in feelings, then look up and sure enough he is there. Highly experienced martial artists use this technique to avoid immediately dangerous environments (eg. choosing not walking down the wrong lonely street). In Japanese martial arts it is called kuji (roughly, prediction, literally, magic). Chinese martial arts branches into a remedial discipline regarding it, in which it is referred to as qi or chi.
I can testify to it and it is quite genuine.

The "psy-vampire" seeks the psychological place of the bully relative to strangers wontonly, through breathing exercise and abstract visualisation technique. By the time you've experienced life at all your subconscious will tend to respond with deferrence. He feels fluffed, you feel tired. He might just be a neighbour you've had little or no contact with, it isn't a requirement.

Simply recognising his intention changes the situation somewhat. Firstly the Eastern description of "casting magic" is "focused intention." Though if practised he can maintain "riding your psychological waves" but effectively he is taking the place of a child to do so where you are the adult (the primordeal mechanic is based in this). You can lead him anywhere you want.
Typically "psy-vampirism" is driven by sexual gratification, a form of masturbation where social proximity is your kink.

Tommycat
05-20-2009, 02:46 AM
We eat cows and we don't seem to care too much about them seeing as most people see humans as some imaginary tier higher than everything else.

When ANY cow ANYWHERE in the WORLD builds something that changes the world, sure, I'll stop eating cows.

vanir
05-20-2009, 03:14 AM
Ooh, one more point. The simplest form of "psy-vampirism" is hero worship, so sometimes you just have to smile and take it as a compliment.
It's all about intention really, poorly intentioned is just like being hero worshipped by someone who wishes to gratify themselves with your detriment. There are many forms of this, it is not remarkable or unique. The example I gave of the schoolyard bully is an appropriate one.
Sometimes the sensation of "psy-vampirism" is just becoming the target of a moron who wants you to think for them. Here it is totally unintentional, but still you always feel drained around them even if otherwise unaware of their immediate presence. It is like someone who you don't actually get along with desperately wanting to be your best friend, and often acting possessive about your wishes and actions. You know, bloody psychos you wind up having to take restraining orders out on. When they finally get the message to hit the road you actually feel a physical weight lifted (like getting a tooth pulled, hardly knew the pain was so bad until it is gone then...ah relief).

Like I said, most of the occult you can learn in the workplace on day one. It's actually not all that remarkable. Eastern philosophy/religion works upon the basis that all superstition is rooted in misconceptions about mundane life, and that most importantly that their being mundane does not in any way lessen their impact and importance, their very real effect. It is not as simple as stating "oh that doesn't make sense to me (yet)" and ignoring it, you actually have to face and deal with mechanical forces to be aware of what's going on with yourself. And it puts you in a better place when dealing with other things.

Qui-Gon Glenn
05-20-2009, 03:15 AM
The physical mechanic of "stealing life energy" works on a Jungian basis (the collective subconscious) and upon these roots:

Scenario, the schoolyard bully flushes your head down the toilet, slams you into locker doors and generally terrorises you. After a time he can intimidate you with a single look. You bow your head, he lifts his, you feel a little sad around him, he feels very dominant around you. Sometimes you don't even need to be aware he is near, you can predict his approach by your own sudden, inexplicable downturn in feelings, then look up and sure enough he is there. Highly experienced martial artists use this technique to avoid immediately dangerous environments (eg. choosing not walking down the wrong lonely street). In Japanese martial arts it is called kuji (roughly, prediction, literally, magic). Chinese martial arts branches into a remedial discipline regarding it, in which it is referred to as qi or chi.
I can testify to it and it is quite genuine.

The "psy-vampire" seeks the psychological place of the bully relative to strangers wontonly, through breathing exercise and abstract visualisation technique. By the time you've experienced life at all your subconscious will tend to respond with deferrence. He feels fluffed, you feel tired. He might just be a neighbour you've had little or no contact with, it isn't a requirement.

Simply recognising his intention changes the situation somewhat. Firstly the Eastern description of "casting magic" is "focused intention." Though if practised he can maintain "riding your psychological waves" but effectively he is taking the place of a child to do so where you are the adult (the primordeal mechanic is based in this). You can lead him anywhere you want.
Typically "psy-vampirism" is driven by sexual gratification, a form of masturbation where social proximity is your kink.
Interesting post.

Chi, ki, qi, can be described in mystical or mundane terms. I prefer the mundane, as they are less abstract, but there is no doubt that "energy" has a role in pre-cognition in the martial artist. This is a learned sensitivity, and is not ethereal or other-worldly, you just need to be trained to recognize it and then to read and react to it. As far as making the right choice about skipping the dark alley, I tend to associate that more with a martial artist being, if s/he has trained long and properly, intimately aware of his/her own limitations.

I think your analogy of the bully is a good one.

I find it odd and somewhat alarming that anyone would seek approval for being vampirish in any way. With any sense of ethical decency, that is simply not an option, and is a lazy way out.

Jae Onasi
05-20-2009, 03:22 AM
Highly experienced martial artists use this technique to avoid immediately dangerous environments (eg. choosing not walking down the wrong lonely street).Well, I call avoiding immediately dangerous environments 'common sense'. It doesn't take long experience in martial arts to develop that intuition. It simply involves paying attention to one's surroundings and most importantly, following the 'little voice in your head'/angel whisper/God speaking/intuition/whatever you want to call it when it tells you 'don't go there/don't do that'. Usually there are subtle environmental cues that trigger that sense that you might not consciously pick up, like the convenience store being unusually quiet at a normally busy time, the cashier rigid with fright, cigarette smoke in the middle of the night in the yard of a neighbor who you know doesn't smoke. Some people are better at noticing such oddities than others.

When ANY cow ANYWHERE in the WORLD builds something that changes the world, sure, I'll stop eating cows.

Oh gawd, now I have to clean spewed iced tea off my monitor. :lol:

True_Avery
05-20-2009, 03:38 AM
When ANY cow ANYWHERE in the WORLD builds something that changes the world, sure, I'll stop eating cows.
Nah, then we'd just declare war on them.

vanir
05-20-2009, 03:39 AM
Well, I call avoiding immediately dangerous environments 'common sense'. It doesn't take long experience in martial arts to develop that intuition. It simply involves paying attention to one's surroundings and most importantly, following the 'little voice in your head'/angel whisper/God speaking/intuition/whatever you want to call it when it tells you 'don't go there/don't do that'. Usually there are subtle environmental cues that trigger that sense that you might not consciously pick up, like the convenience store being unusually quiet at a normally busy time, the cashier rigid with fright, cigarette smoke in the middle of the night in the yard of a neighbor who you know doesn't smoke. Some people are better at noticing such oddities than others.



Indeed. Hence my description of the supernatural as the mundane. How far would you believe this can go however? Most teens can pick up if someone behind them is staring at them with no other sensory input. This firstly defies current medical knowledge (I should specify the word establishment, individual practitioners tend to believe all sorts of surprising things). So you can pick up "unusual quietness" but why is that quietness any different to any other morning? Though I recognise the allusion you were suggesting some other subconscious awareness, as I suggested a Jungian style basis for the system. (edit, no actually that's just me being distracted, I was thinking of police reports as I read your post, in particular "q. why was the quietness around the store any different to any other day? a. I don't know, it just seemed quieter" and examining the nature of noise around stores subsequently I've noticed the sounds/silence stand out more when a cashier is being harassed by a customer, etc. and recalled this...I was thinking of that, you made no such allusion I apolegise)

But how far could you contemplate this? How about a week in advance. How about a distance of 1000km. Knowing a loved one at the other side of the nation is ill immediately before receiving the phonecall. Or phoning them yourself because you suspect they are ill.

What about knowing the brand and type of knife that is to be pulled by a mugger whilst it is still in his pocket. Speaking his name when he attacks you.

How far could you take this line of thinking, Jae? To an extent based upon personal experience...? Or are you a little off centre ;)

To highly experienced martial artists it is kuji or qi. I described it simply, because starting at "prediction" would've worked against me. But indeed I am discussing being able to tell someone the number of assailants in the alley, and the colour of their jackets. I understand others have gone much further, but it took this experience for me to believe them. Therefore I would not expect anyone to believe me had I opened there.

Qui-Gon Glenn
05-20-2009, 03:48 AM
I have my own doubts on some of that, vanir, and I have been practicing martial arts for over 20 years now, with a Black Belt in Southern Praying Mantis, and a Brown Belt in BJJ.

I'm not saying I don't believe in the possibility of the claim, just that I have never had such an experience, and although Master Mark has told a lot of stories, I think many of them are just that. So do most of my contemporaries.

vanir
05-20-2009, 04:27 AM
I understand. I specifically made the distinction "highly experienced" for this reason. The kind of experience I'm inferring is combat environments. You'll find similar stories from war vets, but similarly not all of them.

I lived on the streets as an orphaned teen. I was brutalised several times. I spent long periods living as though feeling terrified all the time was just a normal part of life. Even in my old club practitioners who could claim these stories earned the title of shidoeshi. One lived as a mercinary in China back around the kuomintang revolution, his student (and a distant relative) the current grandmaster, trained to inherit from an early age. One of his students travelled Tibet and India for ten years after twenty years MA (it was part of what he later described as a "warrior quest"), then heard of this club and trained in that.

All these individuals and others with similar claims have intimacy with MA and then independent life experience which would be regarded quite a qualification by itself, but that was performed strictly applying their highest MA philosophies and contemplations, relying upon it as it were for simple survival and in extended environments of necessity. They are what many would describe as Enlightened.


My initial description had to downtone everything, Enlightened Beings to "highly experienced martial artists" for the purposes of communication on even footing with the general audience. Examining my individual posts will reveal a series of inconsistencies on this basis. Even as a whole I'm sure they seem erratic and jumping between extremes. This is simply not a subject discussed in a normal light, it is either oversimplified as to lose any significance or discussed unrealistically as to become fiction.

I simply did my best to display both working mechanics and real world significance, as one typically excludes the other with this kind of topic.

At my last particular club btw (takamatsu ryuha kobudo), even the head instructor, a senior rank didn't believe any of it, I suspect his only respect for it came from regarding it as a religious belief (he was in contact with the wife of the now dead former grandmaster in Japan, and small religious ceremony in respect concluded each session). He even laughed and smirked when describing the training elements of kuji (being a very traditional school, superstitious elements are part of regular training, beginning with "sensing intention exercises").
And an odd thing occured about this, but I'm starting to babble so I'll give it a rest now. Let me say at a couple of points it was displayed he was missing out on certain elements, conspicuously being the head instructor. Senior ranks travelling nationally or internationally used to frequently watch training.

Interesting experience, awesome school. There was another one, roughly associated with it that I'd trained with years before (same MA, different style of teaching, effectively different MA, funny that), that one was where I learned most of my life saving stuff, it was really between those two schools I had my worst experiences. Enlightening, but never pleasant. Second one is better though, first one walks a fine line with thuggery although it is most definitely not the intention (more the opposite, but this is a case of opening the wrong doors without strict guards up I think).

:P See, babbling.

Q
05-20-2009, 10:15 AM
Maybe, but it's interesting babbling even if I don't fully understand everything you say. You've always shown enough insight for me to be able to tell that your wisdom is genuine and your intentions are good. :)
*laughter* Playing Sid Meier's Pirates and making plans to meet with my financial planner tomorrow to discuss socialy responsible investing. (I'm Socialist, not stupid).
Ooh, great game. I might start a thread about it in the Outlander Club.
Now, Crowley had the idea about "Do as thou wilt." However, Crowley was something of a scary, unfriendly dude. Gardner and his spiritual descendants have the rule of "As long as none are harmed, do as you will." The smart Pagan is going to pay a lot more attention to that first part of the clause, and make damn sure as little harm is done as possible. In my case, it's pointed me to all kinds of social justice and environmental activism.
Well, from my very limited research on the subject I got the impression that, put simply, Gardner was a "good witch" whereas Crowley was a "bad witch". Thankfully, I've met more of the former than the latter.
Everything's got a price tag, and karma's a total shutta when she shows up to collect rent.
I believe that it's those who know of the price and are still willing to pay it that are the most dangerous.
I was fascinated with different belief systems, spells, and folk charms. However, I made the mistake of casting a curse once in a fit of anger. Landed an ex in the hospital. Yeah, could be coincidence, but I'm not a big believer in coincidence, especially with how I phrased said curse and how the doctors at the hospital described what was going on with the ex.
You see, this is why I never got into Wicca, even though it runs in my family (as in old-timey Appalachian backwoods witch). I've always thought that the temptation to do harm would be too great, that I lack the maturity and self-control to resist it, and that avoiding that temptation was the best course even though I've felt the "pull" (that's what I call it) for as long as I can remember. That, and it would put me on even worse terms with my family than I am already. :whacked:
I think (vanir's) analogy of the bully is a good one.
I agree.

Jae Onasi
05-20-2009, 10:44 AM
I think a lot of it is body language cues. You may realize something's going on because the people you can see are glancing at the guy right behind you. The lack of noise at the store can be because some people saw something dangerous and immediately left. It could be the body language of the attacker and the fear in the eyes of the cashier. It can be a different type of noise--people who are speaking 'good mornings' in pleasant voices sound very different from people who are nervous about something. Maybe there was something odd in the parking lot--people waiting in a running car, for instance.

When I lived in a not-so-safe apartment complex, I called the cops on a guy. Why? He wasn't someone I recognized, he had a hoodie on with the hood up on an 80 degree night, he was waiting and scanning the area, his posture wasn't calm, and his eyes kept following me as I got my stuff out along with my then-baby son. My danger meter red-lined with all that data. He disappeared as soon as he got a whiff of police presence.

I've had the same feeling you've had about calling a friend. I got the feeling I should call a friend of mine, but then got so busy with family responsibilities I put it off. I found out she had been hospitalized for a stroke when I got that feeling, and had died a few days later. Maybe I got that feeling because I hadn't heard from her by phone or email in awhile. Maybe it was God giving me a nudge. Maybe there's some scientific explanation for that level of emotional/soul connection, and we just don't have the technology or knowledge to understand it yet. Since I'm Christian and don't participate in any occult practices whatsoever yet have experiences that could be considered similar, I think it's likely to be a different explanation than participating in witchcraft/Wicca.

Or are you a little off centreThere aren't too many people who've accused me of being 'normal'. :xp:

Number of assailants in the alley? Perhaps it's knowledge of the people and gangs in the area, hearing the numbers of footsteps. Brand and type of knife? Certain kinds are very common, odds are good that your knowledge base helped you with that. I see up to a couple dozen people a day at work. I can tell you a lot about them after just a minute or two with them. It's a combination of how they carry themselves, what they look like, their facial expressions, how they walk and talk, what they do with their hands and eyes, their dress, their language, and many, many other body language cues that are very subtle. Combine that with doing this job for 15+ years, and I have a huge database of psych/sociological information to pull from, conscious and subconscious. I can't attribute all my experiences to this because I've had a few I just can't explain with current knowledge/technology, but I think the vast majority of it can be explained by 'life experience', familiarity, and a solid knowledge base.

Blix
05-20-2009, 03:28 PM
The concept of a witch isn't derived from works of fiction/fantasy. It's derived from superstition, some of which has shoddy, though existent, proof throughout history for the probable existance of "witchcraft". Just like the evidence supporting prayer and miracles.

I do however, believe that, given The Shadow's testimony, they are quite deluded.

That's true. I forgot about how paranoia and alarmist fear-mongering in general can keep the most absurd rumors/superstitions alive, despite the fact that I personally have never seen anyone change into a cat or set a forest on fire with a wave of their hand.

Tommycat
05-20-2009, 03:50 PM
Nah, then we'd just declare war on them.
We'd probably have to. I mean what if they acquire WMD's? Last thing we want is MAD cows

Totenkopf
05-20-2009, 04:09 PM
Yeah, sane cows make better eating. :xp:

There aren't too many people who've accused me of being 'normal'. :xp:

Well, sometimes normal is just heavily overrated. :)

Web Rider
05-20-2009, 04:17 PM
That's true. I forgot about how paranoia and alarmist fear-mongering in general can keep the most absurd rumors/superstitions alive, despite the fact that I personally have never seen anyone change into a cat or set a forest on fire with a wave of their hand.

Most people have never seen God, and yet we still have religion. In fact, most people have never seen the wind. Yet we know it's there because we can see it's effects. If you were to see a person go into an alley and only see a cat come out, you might think the person became the cat. What you or I may or may not have seen does not mean that what we saw is the truth.

Rev7
05-20-2009, 07:43 PM
We'd probably have to. I mean what if they acquire WMD's? Last thing we want is MAD cows
:lol:

Darth Avlectus
05-20-2009, 08:43 PM
Mr Shadow, you should understand the difference between using and learning something. Can doesn't mean should. And where Enlightenment is concerned it is not something you can conquer. It is a description others provide you. Not an establishment, not even a status, it is an appreciation and really means something like, "hey that person's pretty cool in my eyes."

QFT.:thmbup1:

HEY! Great to have you back, man! Where ya been all this time?! :)

Truly great writer you are. Yeah, that's something that is hard to impart until someone has seen and experienced both sides of "the equation".

Like the difference between knowing and understanding. A pal of mine who does admittedly have mental health issues, has an ingrained habit of trying so hard to impress others with his wealth of knowledge or show this and that. It sometimes nauseatingly crosses over into superiority complex (no I do not believe he realizes he does it, unlike a certain forumite who comes to mind).

Numerous times I have pointed out to him flaws in his reasoning simply because what he knows, and that he has not more than a superficial intimacy with regards understanding. That's the crux of it anyways. Amongst a whole host of other things that are equally tiresome.

Example: I practice a few melee arts, he is an utter Kendo freak. While yes, overall Kendo might have an advantage against certain euro sword arts in a few examples, the point of an art is how effectively it serves its intended purpose, not so much if "this can beat that" or "mine can best yours".
He refuses to believe that just because combat wise his sword form might best another, that it isn't necessarily absolutely better.

He sings all the tenets of martial arts. However, he shows an incredible lack of understanding for his knowledge of it. Time and time again I remind him: Being the toughest mofo doesn't mean jack where your adversary may not play clean. You might be able to cut the ever loving hell out of someone with kendo, but you have to be able to get close enough to do that; kendo is a worthless gesture when hired assasins gun you down from all directions and you don't see it coming. You were a badass kendo mofo, but now you're dead with bullets throughout your body. Whoops.

Now I could explain mikkyo for you to wield (I'm a ten year practitioner, not a tauting rendition but it simply means I'm somewhat familiar) but here is the interesting thing about magic, usable superstition (misconceptions of the mundane). It is only a flavour for whom you already are, whom you would necessarily be in the first place.
You know something, the exact same thing could be said of large sums and fortunes of money. Wouldn't you agree? So many tragic millionaire stories would imply a connection, no?

Most of it is actually about getting off your backside and getting into life to be an active member of society. The intention of most of it is to help you, where maybe you were a little on the outside before. It is for off centre personalities.

:lol: True. But I will ask you to kindly define "off centre personalities" as you've said it. If by "centre" you mean normal or average...thusly "off" being kind of odd ball-ish or in some way sticking out, I agree. Just mind the ambiguity, my friend. :) If you meant something else...well...:raise:

Most of what you think is an amazing realisation following years of study your average labourer learns under his belt on his first day in the workplace.

Mmm, that depends. I have met people years ago who have never changed and I'm not entirely sure have learned "how things work" in the real world. (Speaking as a laborer!) There are so many thick headed people who never learn. I don't know whether to frown or laugh at that.

I've been there when some have come to realize the truth of reality in said situations and how harsh it can be. Some can cope but many recluse back into their shell. Others drastically change. My thoughts based upon personal experience: sooner learned in life, the better.

Humility should be the first lesson of any occultist. It is after all, the single most important thing to know.
Why stop there? I'd say it goes for the martialist, and even the lowly everyday laborer. Because: Reality has a funny but cruel way of knocking one back on his/her arse. Seemiongly at the worst most inopportune times, too.


Now, Crowley had the idea about "Do as thou wilt." However, Crowley was something of a scary, unfriendly dude. Allister Crowley. The same guy Ozzy wrote that song about. If I may, John Michael Osbourne (Ozzy's real name) wrote that song about basically the legacy and the consequences of Crowley's life and actions. I think he actually even had a tone of "What in the hell were you thinking?" throughout the poetry of his song. Not really tauting him as positive as it seemed so many wanted to make it out to be. Point being, the guy did some terrible things.

Karmah, I think, largely has to do not only the kind of person you are inside, but your actions which determine your net deservances. I basically agree: You bring it upon yourself.

Gardner and his spiritual descendants have the rule of "As long as none are harmed, do as you will." The smart Pagan is going to pay a lot more attention to that first part of the clause, and make damn sure as little harm is done as possible. In my case, it's pointed me to all kinds of social justice and environmental activism.

I'd say that first emphasis basically rides on the current of common sense, really.

Ironic on the second of the emphases how little THAT is seen today in just about everything. In fact you and I have spoken before on this. Although there is much we do not see eye to eye on, I think this is one thing we can agree upon.

Theory: this is sort of a fundamental of society that actually functions.

Psy-Vampire? You really do not want the level of trouble that's going to bring you. Everything's got a price tag, and karma's a total shutta when she shows up to collect rent. I've seen energy-drainers try to feed on someone who knew what was up and fought back. Tended to turn out badly for the "vampire." while not all branches of Wicca believe in the Rule of Three, most everyone, Wiccan or not, understands that you reap what you sow. Be careful, then to make sure that what you're sowing is something you want.

Another common sense entry. I guess (if you don't mind my comparing your example to something else having the same context) the vampire could be seen to be those who tend to mooch and bum. Unless the person being mooched from has no self esteem, it usually ends up the mooch gets thrown out on his/her ass.

And yes, many do not think it through rationally, their wants.

To further emphasize the wisdom in vanir's post:

Possible examples extends to potential roommates, coworkers, etc. This is a process of basically feeding off of the capable analogously to examples presented. Favors, politeness, courtesy. The unsaid implicit things. That's how it all starts. It only goes from there.

It's easier to put a stop to it when this other subject is a person whom you are not too comfy with more than casual, mutual, everyday interactions. Mostly impersonal, if friendly. If this person is taking advantage of you, at some point you draw the line and say that enough is enough. You put a stop to it.

@ general people: Now, here is another lesson: Remember the saying that it is much harder to stand up to an ally than an enemy? Case in point: say now the above subject is a good friend. Would you be able to stand up to him/her the same as casual acquaintances? If you answer this question, how you respond to this should be to see what type of person you are. There is no wrong answer, only you. If yes you can, then you area type of person...mmm, let's say you're a bit like Master Vrook Lamar. You love your fellow jedi as brothers and sisters but often times you are hard to live with b/c that love also quite often requires a strong left boot.

If you cannot, that's okay. Knowing that, you at least can draw the line before it goes into potentially volitaile territory.

Most of us fall into the middle of the two extremes.

I understand. I specifically made the distinction "highly experienced" for this reason. The kind of experience I'm inferring is combat environments. You'll find similar stories from war vets, but similarly not all of them.

After reading Sun Tzu: Art of War, I actually wonder if every day life isn't a war zone of sorts. If everyday situations couldn't be viewed as a combat situation (I'm speaking in relative context of course! --What?! You think I'm waiting around the bath curtain with an assault machine gun to protect my stash of cookies?) In a certain sense I would say that we are all warriors on the battlefield, somehow.

*brevity*
All these individuals and others with similar claims have intimacy with MA and then independent life experience which would be regarded quite a qualification by itself, but that was performed strictly applying their highest MA philosophies and contemplations, relying upon it as it were for simple survival and in extended environments of necessity. They are what many would describe as Enlightened.

This is why I enjoy reading your posts. Applicability.

I simply did my best to display both working mechanics and real world significance, as one typically excludes the other with this kind of topic.

Bah, don't sell yourself TOO short, now. You did fine. And you have always been there, willing to clarify for those curious enough to ask. You would make a fine teacher/sensei. I think. At first you and I didn't see eye to eye, but eventually, reasonable, patient and forgiving, you struck a resonance with me.



I think a lot of it is body language cues. You may realize something's going on because the people you can see are glancing at the guy right behind you.

Right there is already something valuable.

The lack of noise at the store can be because some people saw something dangerous and immediately left. It could be the body language of the attacker and the fear in the eyes of the cashier. It can be a different type of noise--people who are speaking 'good mornings' in pleasant voices sound very different from people who are nervous about something. Maybe there was something odd in the parking lot--people waiting in a running car, for instance.

Those safely cautious would pick up on such things, where those who were oblivious to it would be in danger.

I've had the same feeling you've had about calling a friend. I got the feeling I should call a friend of mine, but then got so busy with family responsibilities I put it off. I found out she had been hospitalized for a stroke when I got that feeling, and had died a few days later. Maybe I got that feeling because I hadn't heard from her by phone or email in awhile. Maybe it was God giving me a nudge. Maybe there's some scientific explanation for that level of emotional/soul connection, and we just don't have the technology or knowledge to understand it yet. Since I'm Christian and don't participate in any occult practices whatsoever yet have experiences that could be considered similar, I think it's likely to be a different explanation than participating in witchcraft/Wicca.

I know you're a busy gal, but sometime if you can get around to it I have some interesting and perhaps relevant reads for you:
The Tesla Papers by David Hatcher
Tesla:Man out of time, by Margaret Cheney
Specifically parts where he talks about how we act upon external influences. Tesla was a devout christian, BTW. There are some holes and flaws in his theories but I found it rather amazing how he intimated and described some of these phenomena on external influences. Then get back to me, I'd love to talk about it with you.

I see up to a couple dozen people a day at work. I can tell you a lot about them after just a minute or two with them. It's a combination of how they carry themselves, what they look like, their facial expressions, how they walk and talk, what they do with their hands and eyes, their dress, their language, and many, many other body language cues that are very subtle. Combine that with doing this job for 15+ years, and I have a huge database of psych/sociological information to pull from, conscious and subconscious. I can't attribute all my experiences to this because I've had a few I just can't explain with current knowledge/technology, but I think the vast majority of it can be explained by 'life experience', familiarity, and a solid knowledge base.
QFE.

Most people have never seen God, and yet we still have religion. In fact, most people have never seen the wind. Yet we know it's there because we can see it's effects. If you were to see a person go into an alley and only see a cat come out, you might think the person became the cat. What you or I may or may not have seen does not mean that what we saw is the truth.

I think often times the fallacy "argument form ignorance" is used on both sides to 'prove' or 'disprove'.

Or what you didn't see means it = untruth. Sort of the same thing about the invisible hand of competition: you cannot really embody the competition itself but it does describe an awful lot of occurrences in real life in a vast amount of areas. Nature, market, gaming, etc. to name a few.

Just kind of adding to your sentiment. ;)

Mandalore The Shadow
05-21-2009, 01:43 PM
OK i am not going to be posting on this thread anymore because my home computer wont let me get onto this specific thread and i am at another computer at the moment i did like this conversation though

Q
05-22-2009, 01:58 AM
lolwut?

vanir
05-23-2009, 07:18 PM
That's okay Mandalore, we're looking forward to hearing some of your thoughts.

@ Jae, all true points. And I didn't at intend to suggest any particular awareness is directly associated with any spiritualist practise. If anything I wanted to express that only by re-asserting individual flavours of spiritualist ideals into genuine physical exercise can we develop our beings...albeit I made the controversial suggestion of, in rather extreme and imaginative manner.

I'm a bit off centre. I can barely cope with humdrum unless it is "wowed" in my head somehow. When I turn the simplest code of politeness and common respect into a huge quest of mythical proportions I wind up dedicated to it in every action, thought word or deed...but yet am furthermore genuinely astonished by the real world results. Honestly, no exaggeration you really do get back what you put into life.
A few months ago I was on my smoke break at work, just quietly having a cry in the carpark. No idea why, maybe bubbling stress or something. This bird came and landed right next to me, looked up at my face and started singing. It was like the kindest hand, picked me up for weeks.

Life is all the little things, the little things you do, the little things you appreciate in spite of yourself.

Mandalore The Shadow
05-23-2009, 07:41 PM
Hey it works now guys never mind