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View Full Version : [Spoilers] Chris Avellone reveals the identity of the "True Sith"


Pavlos
06-03-2009, 09:46 AM
Source (http://forums.obsidian.net/index.php?showtopic=52437)

Hidden away at the bottom of a (mostly mundane) interview (http://www.kotaku.com.au/2009/06/question-time-your-interview-with-chris-avellone/) with Kotaku, lead designer of KotOR II, Chris Avellone, has shed some more light on the nature of the "True Sith" mentioned throughout the game, revealing them to be the "survivors of Naga Sadow’s empire".

"They were survivors of Naga Sadow’s empire. Much like the Shadows in Babylon 5, they were orchestrating the collapse of the Republic from behind the scenes, interfering with key events to cause echoes through the Force and leave it ripe for invasion – hopefully without a shot even being fired. In essence, they were changing the shape of the galaxy through manipulation of specific people and conflicts, much like Sidious did, but on an even larger scale than Episode 1 through 3.

The idea was that in Knights of the Old Republic II, Revan slowly became aware of this underlying threat (because Revan is a tactical badass) and went off to seek out the true source of the threat to the galaxy. This was why he was trying to keep the Old Republic infrastructure intact so he could use it against the Sith. Anyway. Fairy tales and legends and what might have been, but that was the intent, yes."

Looks like he wasn't kidding when he said that what was happening in TSL was simply a small part of the larger picture. It's quite literally a scaled-down version of his larger plot ideas...

Salzella
06-03-2009, 10:21 AM
awesome, aside from the Naga Sadow survivors thing, that's almost exactly how i envisaged the true sith. avellone thinks like i do.

Sabretooth
06-03-2009, 10:31 AM
echoes

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH HHHHHHH

jrrtoken
06-03-2009, 10:47 AM
I knew that it would be something like in the first place. Now, I just hope BioWare keeps the True Sith to their original context in TOR.

Char Ell
06-03-2009, 11:19 AM
Nice find Pavlos. From what I can tell TOR looks poised to continue that theme but I'm curious what prompted Mr. Avellone to reveal this now.

Shem
06-03-2009, 11:40 AM
That is so cool! :thumbsup:

TKA-001
06-03-2009, 12:39 PM
I knew that it would be something like in the first place. Now, I just hope BioWare keeps the True Sith to their original context in TOR.
I doubt they will, since the "True Sith" in TOR seem to all be human or near-human for some reason.

they were changing the shape of the galaxy through manipulation of specific people and conflicts, much like Sidious did, but on an even larger scale than Episode 1 through 3.
(Emphasis mine) Bull****. These Sith were manipulating the Republic on a larger scale and more closely than the Sith who became leader of the Republic?

Zerimar Nyliram
06-03-2009, 05:09 PM
The ironic thing is that this was what most people immediately thought the "true Sith" would turn out to be back in 2004, and it was quickly dismissed as too simple and unlikely. Most fans thought something more complicated and creative would be revealed and began to theorize endlessly as to what that may have been. To top it off, Obsidian said that they intended the enigmatic "true Sith" to be an entirely different geographical group from the Empire of Ajunta Pall, Marka Ragnos, et. al. (which would mean either that they were lying then or they're lying now about this having been the intention all along).

And now it turns out that the "true Sith" come from the most obvious and unimaginative connection to Star Wars lore that everyone was quick to dismiss because there were just so many better theories out there. I, for one, can't help but feel disappointed.

VarsityPuppet
06-03-2009, 05:53 PM
It is pretty unimaginative. I was expecting something/someone completely unknown. All we get now is Naga Sadow.

Zerimar Nyliram
06-03-2009, 05:58 PM
Plus the fact that their goal is no different from that of the other Sith: destroy the Jedi, destroy the Republic, rule the galaxy. I thought the message Kreia tried to convey that these guys thought differently; that they got the right idea whereas the other Sith were completely missing the boat? Now they don't seem any different other than the fact that they come from a different lineage.

My theory - that they were the remnants of Adas' pre-Republic empire, having nothing to do with the fallen Jedi who would later conquer those they left behind on Korriban and Ziost, and who are bent on destroying the Sith order who dared to intermingle their blood with that of the exiled Jedi, caring nothing for the Jedi or the Republic - was way better.

Oh well.

Blix
06-03-2009, 06:17 PM
Ah interesting, it seems like most of us who guessed it would be remnants of the Sadow Sith were correct :)

My only question is if this "true sith" plot is supposed to be on a much larger scale than Sidious' (which was pretty damn large considering Clone Wars/Order 66/Empire/etc.) is how did they plot for so long without ever being discovered or stopped? I'm guessing that the True Sith are already in control or at least have made themselves known by the settings of TOR.

Ztalker
06-03-2009, 06:34 PM
Ah interesting, it seems like most of us who guessed it would be remnants of the Sadow Sith were correct :)

My only question is if this "true sith" plot is supposed to be on a much larger scale than Sidious' (which was pretty damn large considering Clone Wars/Order 66/Empire/etc.) is how did they plot for so long without ever being discovered or stopped? I'm guessing that the True Sith are already in control or at least have made themselves known by the settings of TOR.

Who built the Malachor 5 Temple?
Who created the teaching that made Kreia, Sion en Nihilus Sith Lord?

I think there presence was always there...

Sharen Thrawn
06-03-2009, 06:36 PM
I knew that it would be something like in the first place. Now, I just hope BioWare keeps the True Sith to their original context in TOR.
Honestly, I do not see it comming. When I wrote this question on Kotaku, I actually wasn't expecting MCA to answer that the True Sith were indeed the Great Hyperspace survivors. But the explanation on how they would return trully surprised me in a positive way. Avellone's vision of the True Sith's comeback is closely connected to the concept of wounds and echoes in the Force hugely present in KOTOR 2. It's complex and actually very subtle. Seeing how BioWare seems to pretend TSL doesn't exist and based on what we know so far about TOR, I think the True Sith's comeback in TOR will be just a military assault prolonged by decades of building a fleet and an army. I think they will cut the plan of "deafening" the Galaxy by causing echoes and wounds in the Force. I just don't see epiCness-loving BioWare implementing Avellon's subtle way of the Sith conquering the Republic.

Blix
06-03-2009, 06:38 PM
Who built the Malachor 5 Temple?
Who created the teaching that made Kreia, Sion en Nihilus Sith Lord?

I think there presence was always there...

We all know that the Dark Side of the force has been in existence for years, and that obviously the original Sith were the first users of such practices. Cryptics aside, what I am asking is how were the "True Sith" able to live in selclusion for so long to scheme the fate of the Jedi without being stopped?

Sharen Thrawn
06-03-2009, 06:45 PM
We all know that the Dark Side of the force has been in existence for years, and that obviously the original Sith were the first users of such practices. Cryptics aside, what I am asking is how were the "True Sith" able to live in selclusion for so long to scheme the fate of the Jedi without being stopped?
The same way how the Sith Triumvirate managed to lead their silent war against the Jedi for so long which was by creating wounds in the Force to "deafen" the Galaxy and the Jedi. It's all there, explained in KOTOR 2 and as it seems now, these teachings and techniques came from the True Sith Kreia discovered on Malachor V.

Ping
06-03-2009, 08:01 PM
So the identity of the True Sith is finally confirmed, eh? TBH, I've never had a doubt in my mind that the True Sith were the Great Hyperspace War survivors. I mean, you don't really have to think about it too much, as the Sith used to be an alien species, and it would be pretty darn hard to find a truer Sith then the Sith species.

Fredi
06-03-2009, 08:36 PM
It's nice to know this info, This is what I was expecting as well, is good to know we are going the right direction.

Pavlos
06-03-2009, 08:37 PM
As Sharen mentioned, it's not so much the exact identity that's interesting (I don't mean to be modernist about it but if the True Sith had been the descendants of Tony Jaa it wouldn't have had that great an effect on how good the game was) but rather that MCA intelligently placed the elements for the sequel in KotOR II's plot -- ready for their significance to be "activated" in the player's mind by moments of exposition in the next game -- and the idea of people manipulating galactic events from behind the scenes; people whose method of manipulation rather makes Kreia's echoes and precise choice of actions at critical moments look like child's play.

Edit: Cheers for asking the question, Sharen.

Zerimar Nyliram
06-04-2009, 02:59 AM
We all know that the Dark Side of the force has been in existence for years, and that obviously the original Sith were the first users of such practices.

There were dark side practitioners long before the Sith. To my knowledge, the Rakata are chronologically the first known darksiders to date.



And yeah, everyone here seems to have seen the Great Hyperspace War connection coming from miles away. That's my point: they let us down by taking the most obvious road; the one we all expected. A little more imagination would have gone a long way. You certainly could have had "truer" Sith than those from the Great Hyperspace War because they were not pure-blooded Sith but intermingled with the blood and practices of the Dark Jedi. My idea (I hate to boast but it's the only example I can come up with) would have presented a completely pure line of Sith entirely untouched and completely foreign to their later Dark Jedi conquerers. That way, their quest for revenge could have been directed at the Sith "infadels" (the Sith Order, as it bastardized the Sith culture by being assimilated by the Dark Jedi) instead of wanting to kill the Jedi and the Republic like always. It would have been something new and fresh.

Sorry, I tend to ramble.

RedHawke
06-04-2009, 03:31 AM
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH HHHHHHH
You know you love the echoes! They pwn j00! :xp:

adamqd
06-04-2009, 11:55 AM
Them just being descendants of the old Sith Empire is what I thought from the Start tbh.

It's ok saying they were making moves bigger than Sidious... But he was one man (He said the Sith of EP I-III, not the Order of Bane as a whole FTR) and obviously had a larger effect on the Galaxy than these now defunct conjectural people.
I'm sure Bioware will make good of what Avellone planned TSL to add to the Story.

Miltiades
06-04-2009, 03:02 PM
Yeah, I think most knew what the True Sith were, in an overall sense. I didn't mind that, Avellone's all about how you bring it, anyway. It seems as if BioWare is keeping to the plan, for the largest part, so I'm happy. Hopefully, Avellone got the chance to give them some suggestions. :)

Liverandbacon
06-04-2009, 03:39 PM
You know you love the echoes! They pwn j00! :xp:

Chris Avellone's use of "echoes" echoes KOTOR II's writing. Uh oh, we've got a case of echoing echoes.

OT: Wait, wasn't this already known? Or was it just that everyone expected it, but no one knew for sure before now.

Blix
06-04-2009, 03:41 PM
There were dark side practitioners long before the Sith. To my knowledge, the Rakata are chronologically the first known darksiders to date.



And yeah, everyone here seems to have seen the Great Hyperspace War connection coming from miles away. That's my point: they let us down by taking the most obvious road; the one we all expected. A little more imagination would have gone a long way. You certainly could have had "truer" Sith than those from the Great Hyperspace War because they were not pure-blooded Sith but intermingled with the blood and practices of the Dark Jedi. My idea (I hate to boast but it's the only example I can come up with) would have presented a completely pure line of Sith entirely untouched and completely foreign to their later Dark Jedi conquerers. That way, their quest for revenge could have been directed at the Sith "infadels" (the Sith Order, as it bastardized the Sith culture by being assimilated by the Dark Jedi) instead of wanting to kill the Jedi and the Republic like always. It would have been something new and fresh.

Sorry, I tend to ramble.

You're right, I seemed to have forgotten our myopic friends from Lehon. I like your idea as well it would be very interesting being able to scour the galaxy for Sith (wannabes) purging them from the records of time, sparing only the true Sith species.

adamqd
06-04-2009, 04:33 PM
Good Idea, but IMO the Dark Jedi are what bought the muscle to the melding of the societies, I'm not sure a few red skinned force mystics would have had the jacobs to pull off a Sidious

noizer
06-04-2009, 04:57 PM
tbh

i was hoping for something somewhat more original than this.

Darth Avlectus
06-05-2009, 03:24 AM
Who built the Malachor 5 Temple?
Who created the teaching that made Kreia, Sion en Nihilus Sith Lord?

I think there presence was always there...

I think you're correct.

The ironic thing is that this was what most people immediately thought the "true Sith" would turn out to be back in 2004, and it was quickly dismissed as too simple and unlikely. Most fans thought something more complicated and creative would be revealed and began to theorize endlessly as to what that may have been. To top it off, Obsidian said that they intended the enigmatic "true Sith" to be an entirely different geographical group from the Empire of Ajunta Pall, Marka Ragnos, et. al. (which would mean either that they were lying then or they're lying now about this having been the intention all along).

Well, PR deception is a tactic used often when there will be fervor and intensified interest on a large scale in the public eye. They could be lying now or they could have been lying then; ultimately it will not matter, for all they need to do is stall. Now that there is a contradiction, it will generate all that much more interest in the upcoming release. Similarly it is used as a war tactic as well--in a relative sense.

However it is ironic, I agree, that the initial guess which is strange and simple is too often or easily dismissed.

I personally didn't really get around to playing TSL fully until last year--I had played parts of it here and there since its release. (though odd I downloaded all those mods from PCGM almost instictively hoarding them for later which has proven useful) And with what I had seen in wookieepedia, in the Darth Bane novels, and just in general lead me to the conclusion that it couldn't be anything BUT remnants from the past, 1000 years prior @ ~5000BBY. In K1 you can even see loading screen text "True sith died out long ago, today's followers are little more than followers of an ideal"...well, there no hard evidence or anything about the last recorded "true sith" species going extinct.(Least so far that had been published!) So, I thought something was amiss, there.


And now it turns out that the "true Sith" come from the most obvious and unimaginative connection to Star Wars lore that everyone was quick to dismiss because there were just so many better theories out there. I, for one, can't help but feel disappointed.


Fact/truth is often stranger than fiction, is it not? Just what were you expecting? Perhaps your disappointment stems from your expectations?

Ah interesting, it seems like most of us who guessed it would be remnants of the Sadow Sith were correct :)

My only question is if this "true sith" plot is supposed to be on a much larger scale than Sidious' (which was pretty damn large considering Clone Wars/Order 66/Empire/etc.) is how did they plot for so long without ever being discovered or stopped? I'm guessing that the True Sith are already in control or at least have made themselves known by the settings of TOR.

I'm sure the plot will be revealed soon enough.

Subtlety. Cunning. Rather than going out and beating your chest. Remaining just out of reach, just out of sight, and being patient. Not trying too hard either way (making a move or hiding) and being absolutely sure your enemy cannot "see" you. Never be so arrogant as to assume your enemy cannot destroy you nor assume it cannot see things as you do. Unknowns can be used against you.

The reach of the republic only extended so far.

tbh

i was hoping for something somewhat more original than this.

So what did you have in mind, exactly?

Zerimar Nyliram
06-05-2009, 09:38 PM
In K1 you can even see loading screen text "True sith died out long ago, today's followers are little more than followers of an ideal"...well, there no hard evidence or anything about the last recorded "true sith" species going extinct.(Least so far that had been published!) So, I thought something was amiss, there.

True, but "true Sith" seems to be a rather liberal term that could be applied to many different trains of thought, depending upon the context. Kriea meant it one way, and it's clear that Bane meant it in an entirely different way when referring to Revan. Sometimes when descussing the various Sith organizations in the Expanded Universe after the deaths of Sidious and Vader, I will throw around the term "true Sith" so as to differenciate the line of succession that ended with Palpatine and, say, Lumiya's Sith or Darth Caedus (though now I can't help but find myself trying to use different terms as substitutes, knowing that as soon as "true Sith" is uttered everyone will automatically think of KOTOR 2, regardless of the context in which the term was used).

Fact/truth is often stranger than fiction, is it not? Just what were you expecting? Perhaps your disappointment stems from your expectations?

The truth be told, I really don't know what exactly I was expecting all this time. I suppose I was open to anything new or imaginitive that I myself and others may or may not have thought of previously.

GreyJediMaster
06-07-2009, 04:27 PM
To a large degree, this sucks. I thought the True Sith were gonna be a whole race within themselves. i thoguht maybe they were gonna be from way back when the Sith were first created, maybe a whole Secret Colony that broke away from the very first Sith Order as a back-up paln, keeping Malachor as a flagpost in the known galaxy. That Built up a whole empire and wait for the signal to overrun the Republic, from Exar Kun, or Revan, or Nihilus or whoever.

Having said that bioware have returned triumphant with tor, and the trailer is the most badass bit of star wars ive seen since the dueling finale in episode three, so all things considered im not gonna complain. Naga Sadow was the coolest of the old lords anyway.

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
06-15-2009, 04:08 AM
...but rather that MCA intelligently placed the elements for the sequel in KotOR II's plot -- ready for their significance to be "activated" in the player's mind by moments of exposition in the next game -- and the idea of people manipulating galactic events from behind the scenes; people whose method of manipulation rather makes Kreia's echoes and precise choice of actions at critical moments look like child's play.

OH GOD, it would have been such freaking awesome game!

Why, LA? WHY?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH HHHHHHH

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH HHHHHHH

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH HHHHHHH

cire992
06-15-2009, 04:42 AM
Ah screw this noise. It's just a cross between Knights I's big ole' army of sith soldiers and Knights II's little ole' army sith assassins. Gimme something creepy.

See this MMO shoulda been entirely comprised of Revan and Army vs Republic and Army. You got horde, you got alliance. KOTOR I hasn't started yet, KOTOR II doesn't have plotholes yet, and the MMO is just the jedi civil war we all know and love. What's happening here is just the designers recreating the same environment as KOTOR I for TOR.

Us RPG gamers meanwhile should have been exploring worlds laid to waste by Sith Alchemy in the Unknown Regions as Revan tracks the True Sith in an expansion for a slightly more finished TSL (NWN has plenty, thanks, Obsidian).

Ah, what do I know... I'm just a scruffy nerfherder with my head in a wormhole. :p

Darth Avlectus
06-21-2009, 04:49 AM
True, but "true Sith" seems to be a rather liberal term that could be applied to many different trains of thought, depending upon the context. To be fair, I had ahold of the (or at least one of the) first revelations that there was an ancient sith species in star wars insider. So I sort of knew where it was headded all along. It is a term liberally used now for thought processes as you say, but I have a feeling we've only seen the tip of the iceberg thus far into its origins.


Kriea meant it one way, and it's clear that Bane meant it in an entirely different way when referring to Revan. That is to be expected given 3000 years time and all the sith artifacts either recovered by the jedi order, destroyed, smuggled off, used up, or still elusive (Lady Xoxxan, and her master Khanis Muurr, for instance).

Also, Kreia knew Revan personally whereas Bane did not. While that is debatable to an extent (Referring to Path of Destruciton of course), artifact proxy is only an extension. In this case only an extension of Revan prior to K1. I would not say entirely different. Evolved, but essentially still based upon earlier writingsof Revan's.

Sometimes when descussing the various Sith organizations in the Expanded Universe after the deaths of Sidious and Vader, I will throw around the term "true Sith" so as to differenciate the line of succession that ended with Palpatine and, say, Lumiya's Sith or Darth Caedus (though now I can't help but find myself trying to use different terms as substitutes, knowing that as soon as "true Sith" is uttered everyone will automatically think of KOTOR 2, regardless of the context in which the term was used). True, it will have 2 meanings and the ancient species will be the one that springs to mind first in fans now. I'm not entirely sure this wasn't intended, though.

It will, however, necessitate some other term be used to differentiate.
True ancient/core species of sith. True contemporary/lords of the sith. Remember, before any of this Sith was simply a name of a system in which a moon had its own native inhabitants. Dark Jedi were exiled or chased out there by the order. Look it up on wookieepedia if you don't believe me.

The truth be told, I really don't know what exactly I was expecting all this time. I suppose I was open to anything new or imaginitive that I myself and others may or may not have thought of previously.

Would you care to give some example? :)

SilentScope001
01-14-2010, 08:49 PM
Returning from exile to say that I'm glad that Chris Avellone finally spilt the beans. Yeah, I'm disappointed, but I rather be disappointed than wait for the end of KOTOR III to find out they reused the same plotline of KOTOR II.

Anyway, it does make Bioware's plotline more interesting. Remember, in TOR, the "True Sith Empire" (or at least what is likely to be the True Sith Empire) won. Not only that, but the True Sith, at its moment of trimpuh, decided, instead of extermination, to sign a a peace treaty. I have a hard time thinking that Kreia, or Obisidan's True Sith would even consider something like that. These are not your regular Sith here. They're still very generic, but at least they got some heretical ideas going on here. You could spend, what, ten minutes, examining their motives carefully.

Going back into exile. Good job Palvos.

TheGreenGoblin
01-15-2010, 07:33 PM
Returning from exile to say that I'm glad that Chris Avellone finally spilt the beans. Yeah, I'm disappointed, but I rather be disappointed than wait for the end of KOTOR III to find out they reused the same plotline of KOTOR II.

Anyway, it does make Bioware's plotline more interesting. Remember, in TOR, the "True Sith Empire" (or at least what is likely to be the True Sith Empire) won. Not only that, but the True Sith, at its moment of trimpuh, decided, instead of extermination, to sign a a peace treaty. I have a hard time thinking that Kreia, or Obisidan's True Sith would even consider something like that. These are not your regular Sith here. They're still very generic, but at least they got some heretical ideas going on here. You could spend, what, ten minutes, examining their motives carefully.

Going back into exile. Good job Palvos.

I think in those video histories you find out they were locked in a stalemate against the Republic and launched all out assault against Coruscant (as seen in the cgi trailer) moments before it was signed since the treaty allowed the Sith to keep any territorial holdings they had gained since the start of the war.