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GreyJediMaster
06-07-2009, 08:37 AM
who would win? i prefer Kreia's character loads, but ol' prune face has got a lot going for him.

jedi_christian
06-07-2009, 08:45 AM
Palpatine for sure ;)

Taak Farst
06-07-2009, 10:10 AM
You can't even compare them really..palpatine wud pwn kreias ass

Demongo
06-07-2009, 11:11 AM
You can't even compare them really..palpatine wud pwn kreias ass

Exactly. Kreia is nothing, really.

Ping
06-07-2009, 11:22 AM
Palpatine was able to take on four Jedi and kill three of them all by himself with one saber, and Kreia had to use one saber and then three to attempt to kill one Jedi, which she failed at miserably. I think it's safe to say that Palpy would win.

Lord of Hunger
06-07-2009, 12:13 PM
Let's see, two of Star Wars' greatest philosophers and manipulators.... Tough call, but I'd go with Kreia. Her mastery and understanding of the Force is far great than Palpatine's (she make predictions that reach farther into the timeline than he ever could), and I doubt that Palpatine could have defeated the Exile at all. Why? 'Cause the Exile is the second most powerful individual in Star Wars history, right after Darth Nihilus. Force Vampires always have the edge over normal Force Users, so even Kreia couldn't stop the Exile.

Plus, Palpatine relies heavily on the Force, whereas Kreia has learned to use it minimally yet precisely. Palpatine would try and raise an army of clones to kill her, but Kreia would simply sneak in and use the Force to pinch a single artery in his brain that would cause instant death.

All in all, Kreia is the predecessor of Palpatine and easily his superior. Besides, the Jedi that Palpatine killed were so pathetic that 9 year old Anakin Skywalker could have killed them just by running them over with his podracer. :D

GreyJediMaster
06-07-2009, 03:21 PM
Think Lord of Hunger said it all :)

While Palpatine DID train the chosen one, he did it through deception, whereas Kreia trained Revan Sion and the Exile. Not a bad C.V.

Thanatos9t
06-07-2009, 04:26 PM
Think Lord of Hunger said it all :)

While Palpatine DID train the chosen one, he did it through deception, whereas Kreia trained Revan Sion and the Exile. Not a bad C.V.

Lets see Revan learnt all he could from her, Sion betrayed her and the Exile killed her. Yeah great C.V. :thmbup1:

What about Darth Maul and Count Dooku they were also trained personally by Palpatine.

GreyJediMaster
06-07-2009, 04:36 PM
Lets see Revan learnt all he could from her, Sion betrayed her and the Exile killed her. Yeah great C.V. :thmbup1:

What about Darth Maul and Count Dooku they were also trained personally by Palpatine.

haha fair enough, though Kreia understands things that Palpatine does not. however Palpatine DID bring about the fall of the Republic

im torn :confused:

Blix
06-07-2009, 06:49 PM
Palpatine was a Sith from the get-go so no Jedi background to hinder his badassery, however Kreia could be called the original Sidious or Precursor to Palpatine since did what Palps did one up by being directly under the hero's nose the entire time. I don't know an awful lot about Palpatine's fighting style, I know that if you piss him off you could lose your head or get stabbed through the sternum so he is very efficient with a lightsaber and obviously force lightning, but on the other hand Kreia uses the whole affecting drain life that has like an instant kill even on Jedi masters, and her ability to wield 3-4 lightsabers with her mind. Tough to say, but I suppose when it all boils down it doesn't really matter what time frame the fight would take place in it would matter who has the most impressive skillset Kreia gets my vote.

TKA-001
06-08-2009, 05:43 PM
Her mastery and understanding of the Force is far great than Palpatine's
What evidence do you have for this?

(she make predictions that reach farther into the timeline than he ever could)
Kreia's predictions about the Mandalorians ending was proven false. As for those which come true, it should also be noted that Kreia needed to be meditating in Trayus Core in order to see the future. I don't see any reason to believe why Palpatine wouldn't be able to do the same, if Trayus Core was at his disposal.

and I doubt that Palpatine could have defeated the Exile at all. Why? 'Cause the Exile is the second most powerful individual in Star Wars history, right after Darth Nihilus.
Give me a break. The Exile is nothing special compared to other extraordinary Force users in other parts of the timeline. Three Jedi Masters were capable of killing her (they rendered her immobile with ease, and could have wasted her if they wanted to had Kreia not shown up).

Force Vampires always have the edge over normal Force Users, so even Kreia couldn't stop the Exile.
Being a "Force Vampire" isn't a "win fight free card". If the Exile's Force knowledge, experience, training, and fighting skill are all inferior to Palpatine's, then what chance does she have against him? Unless she spends a decade or so in the dark side and becomes like Nihilus did, then she would have no chance. And even then, she would have to face the severe limitations and weaknesses that Nihilus' level of power brings.

Suppose Palpatine was inserted into the Battle of Telos IV in the Exile's place. How would he deal with it? He'd conjure a Dark Empire-style Force storm and obliterate Nihilus' ship.

Plus, Palpatine relies heavily on the Force, whereas Kreia has learned to use it minimally yet precisely.
Palpatine relies on the Force... and Kreia doesn't? She admits that she relies on it. If she didn't have it, she wouldn't be able to control people's minds, kill Jedi and Sith, mask her alignment like Palpatine did, or any other such things.

Palpatine would try and raise an army of clones to kill her
What? First of all, Palpatine doesn't need to make a clone army (or any army of any sort) in order to kill one Sith Lord. He'd kill her himself, like any other intelligent person would. He beat Yoda himself (or at least fought him to a close draw) in a fight. Why would Kreia be any more of a challenge?

but Kreia would simply sneak in and use the Force to pinch a single artery in his brain that would cause instant death.
Nuh-uhh! Palpatine would detect her first!

All in all, Kreia is the predecessor of Palpatine and easily his superior
Living before someone else doesn't make one a predecessor, and being someone's predecessor doesn't make one their superior.

Besides, the Jedi that Palpatine killed were so pathetic that 9 year old Anakin Skywalker could have killed them just by running them over with his podracer.
Lame jokes aside, the four Jedi in question are often cited as being among the best swordsmen in in the Order, and their prowess is demonstrated more than once. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

The only fair way to look at this is objective facts which we know about the characters in question. We know that both of them are manipulative and careful planners, we know Palpatine was a master of Force lightning, we know both of them were adept at concealing their alignment, we know Kreia was a master of telekinetic lightsaber combat, and so on. But like Revan, Malak, the Exile, and just about every single other Jedi or Sith in the KotOR series, Kreia never did anything, in the areas of accomplishments or feats of strength in the Force, that were not or could not have been done by other Force users of other eras. What has Kreia done that Palpatine has not or could not? Nothing.

GreyJediMaster
06-09-2009, 06:05 PM
.....

NUFF said!!

im still torn :S

Ping
06-09-2009, 06:15 PM
Why? 'Cause the Exile is the second most powerful individual in Star Wars history, right after Darth Nihilus.

Why does everyone think everyone from the KOTOR series are the most powerful beings ever? Just cause they killed loads of people doesn't make them more powerful than the other characters. Besides, I'm sure some of the things you encounter are just game mechanics.

Darth_Yuthura
06-12-2009, 02:47 AM
Palpatine was able to take on four Jedi and kill three of them all by himself with one saber, and Kreia had to use one saber and then three to attempt to kill one Jedi, which she failed at miserably. I think it's safe to say that Palpy would win.

She didn't even need a saber. You see, she did eliminate three Masters with near impunity when they attempted to cut the Exile's tie to the Force. Just with the wave of her hand, they all fell dead. Palpatine couldn't even defeat even one with the Force and I would assume Kavar ranks about as powerful as Windu.

Trench
06-12-2009, 03:17 AM
She didn't even need a saber. You see, she did eliminate three Masters with near impunity when they attempted to cut the Exile's tie to the Force. Just with the wave of her hand, they all fell dead. Palpatine couldn't even defeat even one with the Force and I would assume Kavar ranks about as powerful as Windu.
Windu with two lightsabers.
Lets see Revan learnt all he could from her, Sion betrayed her and the Exile killed her. Yeah great C.V. :thmbup1:

What about Darth Maul and Count Dooku they were also trained personally by Palpatine.
And both were killed by Jedi Apprentices.

I'd have to go with Kreia. She would kill Palpatine, his clone armies, his clone bodies (which I think was a mistake on the part of LucasArts), and Vader.
She would probably destroy his cronies and clones without even thinking. Then she would drain, crush, and saber him all with her mind.

mikrex
06-12-2009, 07:50 AM
Palpy would totally waste that ol' bag.

Darth_Yuthura
06-12-2009, 12:54 PM
Palpy would totally waste that ol' bag.

Yeah... I haven't seen him waste any Jedi Masters one-on-one, let alone three. And those times he did, he didn't kill either one. Windu/Anakin, Yoda/escaped.

Trayus took out Vrook, ZKE, and Kavar in an instant.

TriggerGod
06-12-2009, 01:40 PM
Yeah... I haven't seen him waste any Jedi Masters one-on-one, let alone three.

So I guess those other 3 Jedi Masters just dropped dead at the sight of a red lightsaber. ;)

As for who would win, I would say neither, because they are both old. They would simply throw out their hips, and fall over on the ground. If they were younger, they would be about the same power.

mattig89ch
06-12-2009, 02:09 PM
tough call, I put Palpatine. If only because we see him waste 4 jedi masters that were ready for him. kreia came into the room, and surprised the 3 masters.

Trench
06-12-2009, 02:13 PM
I would say neither, because they are both old. They would simply throw out their hips, and fall over on the ground.

:rofl:!

Darth_Yuthura
06-12-2009, 03:59 PM
tough call, I put Palpatine. If only because we see him waste 4 jedi masters that were ready for him. kreia came into the room, and surprised the 3 masters.

Yeah... so she didn't intimidate them, sever their tie to the Force, or give a long-winded speech about their hypocritical actions before she killed them? Palpatine challenged two masters, two knights, and killed three with a lightsaber. Kriea didn't even need a lightsaber against three Council members... that goes to show how strong she was with the Force.

This is not really relevant to anything, so I'll not keep emphasizing this.

jrrtoken
06-12-2009, 05:38 PM
Let's see...

Palpatine wanted to kill the Jedi.

Kreia wanted to kill the Force.

I hope that ended all of this.

Fredi
06-12-2009, 06:23 PM
I think on a battle between both of them Kreia would win.

GreyJediMaster
06-13-2009, 09:28 AM
oringinally i thought kreia, but im now thinking Palpatine, he totally kicks ass

Lord of Hunger
06-13-2009, 05:11 PM
Why does everyone think everyone from the KOTOR series are the most powerful beings ever? Just cause they killed loads of people doesn't make them more powerful than the other characters. Besides, I'm sure some of the things you encounter are just game mechanics.
I don't think that everyone from the KOTOR series are the most powerful beings ever. I do know that the Force Vampires of the Sith Triumvirate were possibly the greatest threat to life itself.

Consider the Internet for a moment. It connects everything increasingly nowadays. It also allows for viruses and spam to be sent to people on a massive scale. Now replace the Internet with the Force, an energy field that connects all living organisms, and replace viruses with individuals who can use the Force to suck the life essence out of both Force users and non-Force users. Worse, imagine a scenario where the viruses specifically target the computers of the companies that build virus protection.

To simplify it with Internet syntax, frc vmprs ownz all n00bs!!!1! :D

What evidence do you have for this?
Consider how many rare techniques she taught the Exile:
Beast Trick
Breath Control
Telepathy
Precognition
Etc.

Then consider that she knows Lightsaber Telekinesis, mind wipes people on a regular basis with no effort, breaks into Atton's mind (the mind of someone who has trained specifically to keep people out of his mind) like the barriers weren't even there, and trained four very powerful and skilled Force users: Revan, the Exile, Sion, and Nihilus.

Palpatine: He can possess clones, predict events, mask his presence like Kreia, use Force Persuade on a scale equivalent to Revan, kill a bunch of Jedi who function on the lowest level of competence, and established the Galactic Empire.
Kreia's predictions about the Mandalorians ending was proven false. As for those which come true, it should also be noted that Kreia needed to be meditating in Trayus Core in order to see the future. I don't see any reason to believe why Palpatine wouldn't be able to do the same, if Trayus Core was at his disposal.
Actually I accept this point. You are right here.
Give me a break. The Exile is nothing special compared to other extraordinary Force users in other parts of the timeline. Three Jedi Masters were capable of killing her (they rendered her immobile with ease, and could have wasted her if they wanted to had Kreia not shown up).
Um...LS Exile submitted to the Jedi Masters, DS Exile kills all of them. Both kill Nihilus, Sion, and Kreia. LS Exile is a passive Force Vampire, and thus fuels herself with the excess energy of everyone around her, especially party members. DS Exile is an up and coming Darth Nihilus, the aggressive Force Vampire who could only be stopped by a fellow Force Vampire. I can't see any other Force users beating the Exile or Nihilus since individuals like Anakin, Luke, Revan, and Galen are just food for them.
Being a "Force Vampire" isn't a "win fight free card". If the Exile's Force knowledge, experience, training, and fighting skill are all inferior to Palpatine's, then what chance does she have against him? Unless she spends a decade or so in the dark side and becomes like Nihilus did, then she would have no chance. And even then, she would have to face the severe limitations and weaknesses that Nihilus' level of power brings.
See above.
Suppose Palpatine was inserted into the Battle of Telos IV in the Exile's place. How would he deal with it? He'd conjure a Dark Empire-style Force storm and obliterate Nihilus' ship.
The Force Storm would likely be absorbed by Nihilus, and even if the Ravager was destroyed Nihilus would likely survive. Again, powerful Force users are just food for Vampires.
Palpatine relies on the Force... and Kreia doesn't? She admits that she relies on it. If she didn't have it, she wouldn't be able to control people's minds, kill Jedi and Sith, mask her alignment like Palpatine did, or any other such things.
Considering her teachings are to avoid its use and maintain real life skills, I'd say she relies on it less than Palpatine. In fact, she teaches the Exile how to ground her Force powers in real life skills. Kreia likely has very high awareness, stealth, and treat injury skills.

Meanwhile, Palpatine has no problem with blasting someone with Force Lighting whenever he wants to. He does it to a point where he doesn't realize his apprentice is have a major change of heart. Kreia would have simply killed Luke and then detected Vader's conflict and use a mind wipe on him.
What? First of all, Palpatine doesn't need to make a clone army (or any army of any sort) in order to kill one Sith Lord. He'd kill her himself, like any other intelligent person would. He beat Yoda himself (or at least fought him to a close draw) in a fight. Why would Kreia be any more of a challenge?
'Cause beating the Jedi of that era is not a challenge. They lost all of their sense of vigilance and discipline after the Ruusan Reformation. Also, it is very common for the Sith to defeat Jedi who adhere to the ideals of the Jedi Code. As we've seen in the Movies (Lucas' Holy Star Wars Canon), the Sith are usually defeated by Jedi who decide **** the Code and tap into their emotions. Obi Wan does it, Luke does it, Anakin does it, etc.. Yoda, the height of the Jedi Order at the time, could barely stand his ground again Palpatine. There is no way Yoda could have stood for a second against Kreia, especially since Palpatine either toys with his prey or deliberately looses to turn whinny emo kids into badass Sith Lords like Vader.
Nuh-uhh! Palpatine would detect her first!
Uh...okay then.
Living before someone else doesn't make one a predecessor, and being someone's predecessor doesn't make one their superior.
Considering that they are so much a like, I'd say that Kreia is Palpatine's predecessor. Also note that Kreia attempted to do (and nearly succeeded) in something far grander than even Palpatine could imagine: the death of the Force.
Lame jokes aside, the four Jedi in question are often cited as being among the best swordsmen in in the Order, and their prowess is demonstrated more than once.
Again, being a Jedi Master in that specific time is not a compliment. A Padawan from Luke's new order could have easily kicked any of those Jedi's ass.
The only fair way to look at this is objective facts which we know about the characters in question. We know that both of them are manipulative and careful planners, we know Palpatine was a master of Force lightning, we know both of them were adept at concealing their alignment, we know Kreia was a master of telekinetic lightsaber combat, and so on. But like Revan, Malak, the Exile, and just about every single other Jedi or Sith in the KotOR series, Kreia never did anything, in the areas of accomplishments or feats of strength in the Force, that were not or could not have been done by other Force users of other eras. What has Kreia done that Palpatine has not or could not? Nothing.
Never did anything? Are you kidding me? Kreia's students wiped out the Jedi Order, and nearly wiped out life itself. Revan built a Sith Empire that was likely the role model for Palpatine's (we know that Palpatine's Stormtrooper uniforms drew inspiration from the Sith Trooper Armor of Revan's Empire), and convinced millions of loyal Jedi and Republic soldiers to abandon their cause and serve him (whereas Palpatine convinced thousands of corrupt Senators to institute a government the people of the Core Worlds already wanted...not that hard). Sion achieved the form of immortality that most Sith have dreams about (while Palpatine had to jump from Clone to Clone to survive). Nihilus achieved a level of power unparalleled, literally becoming a force of nature rather than a person (while Palpatine had difficulty controlling his Force Storm). The Exile caused about 70% of the Sith Triumvirates casualties (most of which were Force Vampires), averted a Civil War, saved an entire Outer Rim community, destabilized crime in the Y'Toub system, and survived the Tomb of Ludo Kreesh (something most Jedi easily failed to do). Kreia was the one who made all of this possible.

RedHawke
06-14-2009, 04:40 AM
Some tidbits...

Anyone with knowledge of how to drain life energy can stand up to and resist the draining attacks of someone like Nihilus, the rarity of said knowledge is why Nihilus seemed so unstoppable. I do recall that Drain Life Energy was one of Palapatine's listed powers.

The Force Storm would likely be absorbed by Nihilus, and even if the Ravager was destroyed Nihilus would likely survive. Again, powerful Force users are just food for Vampires.
Incorrect it would destroy him... you can't absorb a Force Storm FYI. Vampire or not that powers manifestation can destroy anything it touches, even the conjurer if they lose concentration.

Darth Avlectus
06-14-2009, 05:20 AM
Supposition: I wonder if Vaapad could reflect Force Drain back. That would mean Mace>Nihilius. Otherwise bye-bye mace.

@ thread: I'd go with kreia b/c she was all that much closer to the original sith. Palpatine may have been a culmination of a near millenium of Bane's order/dynasty but even that was only so close to the original sith.

Totenkopf
06-14-2009, 05:35 AM
Palpatine was a Sith from the get-go so no Jedi background to hinder his badassery, however Kreia could be called the original Sidious or Precursor to Palpatine since did what Palps did one up by being directly under the hero's nose the entire time.

Perhaps, but Sidious was able to perform under the noses of the entire Jedi Council, undermine the Republic and control an army that defeated and drove hundreds to thousands of jedi to their deaths. Of course his arrogance proved to be his downfall in the end....

Since I'm not totally aware of all DI's talents vs Kreia's, I'll have to say undecided for now.

Fredi
06-14-2009, 01:41 PM
As I said my vote was for Kreia, but that crazy witch wanted to destroy the force, I think she is stronger than Palpi, but provably I would support him on battle if I where a Sith :p

Lord of Hunger
06-14-2009, 05:13 PM
Incorrect it would destroy him... you can't absorb a Force Storm FYI. Vampire or not that powers manifestation can destroy anything it touches, even the conjurer if they lose concentration.
Source?

From what we know about the Force, it is an energy field. This means that Force Powers are based upon a form of energy. Nihilus consumes any of that energy he comes across, so why would he not be able to consume a Force Storm?

However, I did not know that Drain Life was one of Palpatine's abilities. I'll have to check that out. Still, there is the problem of Nihilus' power magnitude and whether Palpatine could stand up to it. The Exile specifically won because she was another Wound like Nihilus (thus starving him) and she had Visas further stress Nihilus by disrupting their bond. The combination along with the fact that Nihilus was already pretty low on Jedi burgers :D was enough to defeat him, but barely. Something tells me the Galaxy was pretty dang lucky.

Obi-Wan: There is no luck, there is the Force.
Me: Shut up!

[Lord of Hunger uses Force Lightning to fry Obi-Wan.]
[Lord of Hunger has gain 100 Dark Side Points and has achieved Dark Side Mastery.]
:D

Canderis
06-14-2009, 09:38 PM
I agree with LoH and also if you think about it Revan was technically the chosen one too. He fits the description so therefor Krea also trained the chosen one. Kreia also killed more things in actual combat, Sidious ordered people to kill his enemies and the only people you actually see him kill are the jedi masters in EP3

mikrex
06-14-2009, 10:39 PM
Palpatine could either out dual her, or just force lighting her to a crisp.

GreyJediMaster
06-15-2009, 09:54 AM
here's a thought - what if they joined forces? obviously thats impossible, but between them, with the trayus core and the death star?

RedHawke
06-15-2009, 11:39 AM
Source?
Dark Empire Comics / Dark empire Sourcebook for the D6 WEG RPG.

From what we know about the Force, it is an energy field. This means that Force Powers are based upon a form of energy.
From the sourcebook (Pp. 70)...

Effect: This power is perhaps the single most destructive Force power ever known. the Power allows the Jedi/Sith to twist the space-time continuum to create vast storms of force. The power also allows limited control of these storms. Capable of creating annihilating vortexes, the storms can swallow whole fleets of spaceships or tear the surfaces off of worlds.

In the comic (Scene also reprinted in Sourcebook for RPG) it rends anything it touches, it consumes Palapatine and his SSD Eclipse and fleet when he loses control of his own storm.

Nihilus consumes any of that energy he comes across, so why would he not be able to consume a Force Storm?
Because it isn't life energy/living force type field it isn't comprised of what he feeds upon. It is a manifestation of pure rage and hate not life but a destructive death field.

Nihilus consumes life not death. ;)

However, I did not know that Drain Life was one of Palpatine's abilities. I'll have to check that out.
It is according to most materials I have available...

Lord of Hunger
06-15-2009, 12:27 PM
Dark Empire Comics / Dark empire Sourcebook for the D6 WEG RPG.


From the sourcebook (Pp. 70)...

Effect: This power is perhaps the single most destructive Force power ever known. the Power allows the Jedi/Sith to twist the space-time continuum to create vast storms of force. The power also allows limited control of these storms. Capable of creating annihilating vortexes, the storms can swallow whole fleets of spaceships or tear the surfaces off of worlds.

In the comic (Scene also reprinted in Sourcebook for RPG) it rends anything it touches, it consumes Palapatine and his SSD Eclipse and fleet when he loses control of his own storm.


Because it isn't life energy/living force type field it isn't comprised of what he feeds upon. It is a manifestation of pure rage and hate not life but a destructive death field.

Nihilus consumes life not death. ;)
But something causes it, and that something is the Force. Nihilus would essentially be able to consume the Force Energy that is starting it up.

However, I'd agree that once it was unleashed Nihilus might not survived...provided that Sidious can keep it targeted at him and not get consumed before hand.
It is according to most materials I have available...
Could you cite a few? I looked up Sidious on Wookiepedia (which is actually quite accurate and thorough) but I couldn't find Drain Life listed as one of his abilities. :confused:

To be honest, it doesn't even sound like an ability that fits his profile. When he wants someone dead, he just blasts them with Lightning, and when he wants someone to obey him, he uses Dominate Mind. He doesn't need to practice anything remotely close to Force Vampiricy to get what he wants. Kreia primarily used it because she gained a limited version of Nihilus' aggressive Vampiricy from loosing and regaining her connection to the Force, and secondarily for the purpose of showing people like the Jedi Masters what it means to loose the Force.

RedHawke
06-16-2009, 04:26 AM
But something causes it, and that something is the Force. Nihilus would essentially be able to consume the Force Energy that is starting it up.
You are mis-interpreting what Nihilus can do here, he can't consume the dark side of the force or death, he feeds on life so he can't do what you think he does. He doesn't just gobble up all types of energy.

However, I'd agree that once it was unleashed Nihilus might not survived...provided that Sidious can keep it targeted at him and not get consumed before hand.
Nihilus isn't capable of creating a field of Force Harmony so being able to disrupt one such as Sidious is unlikely. It took both Luke and Leia together to interrupt Sidious.

Could you cite a few? I looked up Sidious on Wookiepedia (which is actually quite accurate and thorough) but I couldn't find Drain Life listed as one of his abilities. :confused:
The same aforementioned sourcebook, all subsequent writings of him in the RPG's and comics and the Dark Empire comics... see you have to have the ability to drain life to be able to Transfer your consciousness like he can do as it is a pre-requisite ability, one of many.

The Base Star Wars D6 RPG books stated that Palapatine possessed a vast array of Sith knowledge and powers, some unlisted as he has had decades to study and practice them. They added them as the EU pumped out stories.

To be honest, it doesn't even sound like an ability that fits his profile. When he wants someone dead, he just blasts them with Lightning, and when he wants someone to obey him, he uses Dominate Mind. He doesn't need to practice anything remotely close to Force Vampiricy to get what he wants. Kreia primarily used it because she gained a limited version of Nihilus' aggressive Vampiricy from loosing and regaining her connection to the Force, and secondarily for the purpose of showing people like the Jedi Masters what it means to loose the Force.
The Emperor is much more than you saw on film, while some of the EU drags it into the realms of impossibility the Emperor did use the people under him to fuel his power and he did enhance their abilities with his powers.

The ability of Drain Life Energy actually ties into the tale he tells Anaken about Darth Plageus, who had to know how to Drain Life Energy to sustain it. So he did have access to the power. If the prevalent theory of Plageus being Sidious master holds water.

Darth_Yuthura
06-16-2009, 08:26 AM
Perhaps, but Sidious was able to perform under the noses of the entire Jedi Council, undermine the Republic and control an army that defeated and drove hundreds to thousands of jedi to their deaths. Of course his arrogance proved to be his downfall in the end....

Since I'm not totally aware of all DI's talents vs Kreia's, I'll have to say undecided for now.

And Kriea was able to manipulate all of the Exile's companions without the Exile knowing it. She clearly could hide it from the one she shared a Force bond with, which must means she's very clever at deception and manipulation.

I've voted for her because of how easily she took out three Jedi Masters. Luke and Leia may have been powerful, but they were not at all at the level of any of those masters when Palpatine was beaten by them. It was not a struggle at all for her, which is why I voted for her. If Palpatine just executed those four Jedi who confronted him, then I would lean in his direction. But he used a lightsaber and Windu actually beat him with his own lightning attacks. Not that powerful to me.

rictus135
06-16-2009, 09:46 AM
Palpatine would win hands down. He was more powerful than Kreia and used the foce in a far greater variety of ways.

The three masters Kreia killed had all left the foce behind at least in part, in order to hide their presence from the Sith. They then exerted a significant amount energy to trap the Exile, forfitting their ability to defend themselves from Kreia.

Kreia used three lightsabers with her mind, but only at the heart of one of the most strongly darkside planets in the history of the galaxy! The trayus core is probably similar to (though perhaps not as powerful as) the Valley of the Jedi. It fed her powers, and expanded her abilities.

Kreia was able to hide her alignmment and use a form of force camoflauge, but Sion detected her and cut off her hand without breaking a sweat!

Palpatine clouded the force (the Shroud of the darkside) throughout the entire galaxy! More than that, he singlehandedly diminished the entire Jedi Orders ability to use the force.

Palpatine's skills in battle weren't directly tied to his abilities with the lightsaber. He used his powers to prevent the other Jedi Masters from sensing his actions. Kreia said that if you took the force away from a Jedi they would be like children, or something along those lines, that they depend on the force and if you gave them a lightsaber without it they would be useless. If you watch the Jed Masters in the movie, they are extremely awkward hardly even attempting to block Palpatines attacks. Windu and Yoda were powerful enough to break through this power, and when engaged in a duel both were more than a match for Palpatine. So any arguments about their skills with the lightsaber have little weight.

Lord of Hunger
06-16-2009, 01:02 PM
You are mis-interpreting what Nihilus can do here, he can't consume the dark side of the force or death, he feeds on life so he can't do what you think he does. He doesn't just gobble up all types of energy.
Hmm...I will have to look that up. This aspect of our respective theories greatly depends on our understanding of what the Force is frankly made of. I will point out, however, that Yoda was able to absorb Force Lightning with no ill effects I'm aware of.
Nihilus isn't capable of creating a field of Force Harmony so being able to disrupt one such as Sidious is unlikely. It took both Luke and Leia together to interrupt Sidious.
I meant in terms of Nihilus using his Vampiricy on Sidious. The moment Sidious starts going Super Saiyan :D and preparing his Force Storm, his guard will be dropped and this would allow Nihilus to reach in and suck the life right out of him. And boy would he reach in, a Force User of that power would be a three course meal at best.
The same aforementioned sourcebook, all subsequent writings of him in the RPG's and comics and the Dark Empire comics... see you have to have the ability to drain life to be able to Transfer your consciousness like he can do as it is a pre-requisite ability, one of many.
Because? I don't understand the mechanic here. Drain Life is the ability to leech life energy from one person to another. Transfer Consciousness is the ability to move a spirit from one host to another.
The Base Star Wars D6 RPG books stated that Palapatine possessed a vast array of Sith knowledge and powers, some unlisted as he has had decades to study and practice them. They added them as the EU pumped out stories.
Well this implies that Drain Life would be among his abilities, though again Palpatine's character is contrary to the sort of persona that actively uses and expands upon that ability.

For one thing, wouldn't drain life help with the aging effect of other Dark Side abilities? Just speculating.
The Emperor is much more than you saw on film, while some of the EU drags it into the realms of impossibility the Emperor did use the people under him to fuel his power and he did enhance their abilities with his powers.
If so he'd be a living God, or at least on the scale of Nihilus in that regard. It would be like the Exile using her passive Vampiricy on 1,000,000 clones of each of her companions. 1 crew was enough to give her to power to take on Nihilus, Sion, and Kreia, the scale you (or rather the EU) are (is) suggesting for Palpatine would make invincible. However, it is not entirely implausible for him to have that level of access given that he used Battle Meditation on whole lot of people....
The ability of Drain Life Energy actually ties into the tale he tells Anaken about Darth Plageus, who had to know how to Drain Life Energy to sustain it. So he did have access to the power. If the prevalent theory of Plageus being Sidious master holds water.
Okay, this is also new: Midiclorian Manipulation requiring Drain Life? It would explain Plageus' downfall in the story....
Palpatine clouded the force (the Shroud of the darkside) throughout the entire galaxy! More than that, he singlehandedly diminished the entire Jedi Orders ability to use the force.
Wait, the Jedi Order could use the Force? That's news to me.

:D Just kidding. But seriously, using the Shroud of the Dark Side on that version of the Jedi Order is not difficult. They were already, for one, predisposed to blindness towards such a version of the Sith Order (supposedly they were constantly gearing up for another war with the long deceased Brotherhood of Darkness of Lord Kaan, just as KOTOR's Jedi were constantly addressing the defeated Sith Brotherhood of Exar Kun while the Mandalorians were ravaging the Galaxy and continued to do so as they were being crushed by Revan's Sith (who were fueled by both the might of the Infinite Empire and the teachings of Malachor and Korriban).
Palpatine's skills in battle weren't directly tied to his abilities with the lightsaber. He used his powers to prevent the other Jedi Masters from sensing his actions. Kreia said that if you took the force away from a Jedi they would be like children, or something along those lines, that they depend on the force and if you gave them a lightsaber without it they would be useless. If you watch the Jed Masters in the movie, they are extremely awkward hardly even attempting to block Palpatines attacks. Windu and Yoda were powerful enough to break through this power, and when engaged in a duel both were more than a match for Palpatine. So any arguments about their skills with the lightsaber have little weight.
Whether or not Windu was powerful enough to break through Palpatine's power is actually in the air. I, like many others, believe that Palpatine was deliberately loosing just to create the situation where Anakin could be shaped into Vader and also use fake evidence of a Jedi insurrection to establish the Galactic Empire.

As for Yoda, I have a feeling that Palpatine was toying with him as well, but not quite so much.

As for the other Jedi Masters, again they were anticipating Kaan's Sith, brutal Marauders, rather than Bane's Sith, beings of shadows. They were also probably preparing for other versions like Revan's Sith, endless armies marching by the will of a single brilliant strategist or a brutal overlord, Exar Kun's Sith, apprentices backstabbing Masters, or Naga Sadow's Ancient/True Sith, superior masters of the Force who had just experience a golden age and were fueled by their Dark Lord's battle mediation. The best preparation would have been against the Assassins of the Sith Triumvirate, because at least both they and Bane's Sith waged a war of secrecy and manipulation. It's all tactics, and excuse to compare the different awesome Sith factions. :D

Trench
06-16-2009, 02:25 PM
Lord of Hunger made some excellent points on that one. Especially on how Palps was able to defeat the Jedi so easily. The old Jedi Order stayed pretty much the same throughout its lifetime. The Sith order changed many times in order to adapt. The Jedi refused to open themselves up to new philosophy and points of view.

Ping
06-16-2009, 02:35 PM
Lord of Hunger, Yoda didn't necessarily absorb the lightning the same way Nihilius could absorb stuff. Yoda's version was more of an advanced way of deflecting Force powers.

GreyJediMaster
06-16-2009, 04:21 PM
:lol:. Okay, how is absorption, an advanced form of deflection?

i dont think thats quite what he meant. When Yoda absorbed the lightning from Dooku and later Palpatine, he was using a technique that allowed him to accept it without it harming him, then channeling it back to its creator with his own force powers. Yoda is REALLY old, its probably an ancient technique forgotten by the time of ep 3. Besides, all Jedi have the cappability to use dark side powers, just they're not trained to. Of course they need to "have the dark side in them", but tbh, once theyve been shown, they can adapt.

:thmbup1:

Darth_Yuthura
06-16-2009, 05:28 PM
Lord of Hunger made some excellent points on that one. Especially on how Palps was able to defeat the Jedi so easily. The old Jedi Order stayed pretty much the same throughout its lifetime. The Sith order changed many times in order to adapt. The Jedi refused to open themselves up to new philosophy and points of view.

So this is one thing that I would say leans more in Kreia's favor. She was the first one to use the Potentium theory of the Force and she was a Gray Jedi. Palps was but a dedicated darksider who really cheated his way to beat out Plageous, but never truly became that much greater.

Don't forget as well that Kreia beat three masters outside the Trayus core, so with that power, she'd be so much greater than she was on Dantooine. And I really don't believe that Palpatine allowed himself to be beaten by Windu for Anakin to act. Once you have characters getting excuses, that disrupts everything.

Otherwise, it would be that Star Trek ships are more powerful than SW because a ship the size of a star destroyer can destroy an entire planet. Just go on direct observations and don't presume one didn't do something or COULD have been able to do something... just say what they've actually done.

Ping
06-16-2009, 07:35 PM
i dont think thats quite what he meant. When Yoda absorbed the lightning from Dooku and later Palpatine, he was using a technique that allowed him to accept it without it harming him, then channeling it back to its creator with his own force powers. Yoda is REALLY old, its probably an ancient technique forgotten by the time of ep 3. Besides, all Jedi have the cappability to use dark side powers, just they're not trained to. Of course they need to "have the dark side in them", but tbh, once theyve been shown, they can adapt.

:thmbup1:

That's exactly what I was trying to say.

Also, Darth Yuthura, Kreia may have beat three Jedi Masters, but how did she do it? She did it the wimpy way, by simply using some uber powered Drain Life (how else would they lose their presence in the Force?). Palpatine, on the other hand, killed three masters with one saber. That tells me Kreia was either a wimp, or too lazy to pull out a saber.

RedHawke
06-17-2009, 01:45 PM
Hmm...I will have to look that up. This aspect of our respective theories greatly depends on our understanding of what the Force is frankly made of. I will point out, however, that Yoda was able to absorb Force Lightning with no ill effects I'm aware of.
One energy is not another and Yoda was actively absorbing/dissipating and channeling the lightning back, you implied Nihilus would "feed" off of it automatically... big difference. There is no 'automatic' when attacking something with the force, unless they are unprepared or not force sensitive.

The Living Force is essentially Life Energy (Yoda's own words).
The Dark Side is essentially Death Energy (Yoda's own words again).

Feeding upon another's Living Force like Nihilus does he would be at the minimum weakened to incapacitated, or simply incompatible if he tried to feed off of Dark Side energy.

I meant in terms of Nihilus using his Vampiricy on Sidious.
It isn't Vampiricy... not in the traditional sense... against someone who has such knowledge he would have to breach their defense to cause any sort of damage to the subject. Also Nihilus would be less effective in staving off the other party if their defense held because he would have to maintain concentration to keep his power 'up' so his attack would be automatic the next round.

The moment Sidious starts going Super Saiyan :D and preparing his Force Storm, his guard will be dropped and this would allow Nihilus to reach in and suck the life right out of him. And boy would he reach in, a Force User of that power would be a three course meal at best.
Your 'guard' would not be down... you can still take actions while you focus on creating or controlling the storm (pending your Concentration Skill, D6 game mechanic). While you do suffer penalties for having the power up... you can indeed still act, though with similar penalties as Nihilus would have above for maintaining the power in combat.

Because? I don't understand the mechanic here. Drain Life is the ability to leech life energy from one person to another. Transfer Consciousness is the ability to move a spirit from one host to another.
You must know the various ebbs and flows of energy to be able to master your own energy to keep it intact after death.

Requirements for Transfer Life: Absorb/Dissipate Energy, Accelerate healing, Control Pain, Detoxify Poison, Emptiness, Hibernation Trance, Reduce Injury, Remain Conscious, Resist Stun, Life Detection, Life Sense, Magnify Senses, Receptive Telepathy, Sense Force, Injure/Kill, Telekinesis, Farseeing, Projective Telepathy, Accelerate Another's Healing, Control Another's Pain, Feed On the Dark Side, Inflict Pain, Return Another To Consciousness, Transfer Force, Drain Life Essence, Affect Mind, Control Mind, Dim Another's Senses.

Well this implies that Drain Life would be among his abilities, though again Palpatine's character is contrary to the sort of persona that actively uses and expands upon that ability.
A Sith Lord such as Sidious would have many such capabilities or knowledge, while not used in his day to day actions he can have it in his 'aresenal' if needed. He also is noted to possess a plethora of other abilities.

For one thing, wouldn't drain life help with the aging effect of other Dark Side abilities? Just speculating.
Doesn't work like that... the power goes to you, is corrupted in doing so, to fuel your own power.

If so he'd be a living God, or at least on the scale of Nihilus in that regard. It would be like the Exile using her passive Vampiricy on 1,000,000 clones of each of her companions. 1 crew was enough to give her to power to take on Nihilus, Sion, and Kreia, the scale you (or rather the EU) are (is) suggesting for Palpatine would make invincible. However, it is not entirely implausible for him to have that level of access given that he used Battle Meditation on whole lot of people....
Well he was the last of the Sith Lords... so he had much knowledge at his disposal.

Okay, this is also new: Midiclorian Manipulation requiring Drain Life? It would explain Plageus' downfall in the story....
As said above you must know the various ebbs and flows of energy to be able to master things Plageus was stated to have mastered.

I'm not saying one is a shoe-in to beat the other, just your are discounting one party a whole bunch in your estimates. ;)

i dont think thats quite what he meant. When Yoda absorbed the lightning from Dooku and later Palpatine, he was using a technique that allowed him to accept it without it harming him, then channeling it back to its creator with his own force powers.
Absorb/Dissipate Energy and Reflect/Channel Energy. :D

Totenkopf
06-17-2009, 08:44 PM
And I really don't believe that Palpatine allowed himself to be beaten by Windu for Anakin to act. Once you have characters getting excuses, that disrupts everything. .


Given Palpatine's penchant for manipulation, I think the idea of his toying with Windu till Anakin showed up isn't nearly as unlikely as you'd believe, nor is it an excuse. Allowing Anakin to be party to Windu's death basically hastened his quickening to the darkside. Besides, Darth Sidious seemed to recover quite nicely for someone so "beaten down".

Insignia_Enithma
06-20-2009, 07:29 AM
When Mace Windu, Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar and Kit Fisto turned up to arrest Palpatine only one of them was truly capable of winning that fight, even with a slim chance and that was Windu. He had Vaapad, a technique putting him close to using the dark side (or it was a dark side technique I cannot remember).

Palpatine did infact get the jump on the Jedi Masters using his skill with a lightsaber to slay three of them before coming up against one of the bets duellists in history.

Not only this but Palpatine shrouded his dark side movements, and blinded the council to the force.

I am however a firm believer that allot of the power of the Jedi was lost over the years leading to the rise of Palpatine. With many of their teaching lost (especially some of their more ancient teachings during KotOR 2, as-well as just before it.)

Kreia, knew allot more then she ever let on, and we never truly saw her true power I think, it was only on Malachor that we truly began to see what she was, her clever use of Telekinetic Lightsaber Combat, the proof of her subtle manipulations and the death of three Jedi Masters by stripping the force away from them. She also like Palpatine hid her movements, even Atris, who had by the time she met the exile again had fallen to the dark side did not notice Kreia, it was only later that she realised who it was that was accompanying the Exile.

TBH, they are both powerful. But Kreia may know allot of ancient techniques and secrets that Palpatine himself did not have access to and so my opinion is Kreia would win.

Darth Hord
06-20-2009, 11:17 AM
TBH, they are both powerful. But Kreia may know allot of ancient techniques and secrets that Palpatine himself did not have access to and so my opinion is Kreia would win.


This is very debatable, after all Palpatine had access to the Telos Holocron. (featured in the Jedi vs Sith guide) http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Telos_Holocron among others and in it there is an entire section of Palpatine talking about finding ancient sith knowledge, let alone what is in the Telos holocron itself.

Lord of Hunger
06-20-2009, 02:27 PM
One energy is not another and Yoda was actively absorbing/dissipating and channeling the lightning back, you implied Nihilus would "feed" off of it automatically... big difference. There is no 'automatic' when attacking something with the force, unless they are unprepared or not force sensitive.

The Living Force is essentially Life Energy (Yoda's own words).
The Dark Side is essentially Death Energy (Yoda's own words again).

Feeding upon another's Living Force like Nihilus does he would be at the minimum weakened to incapacitated, or simply incompatible if he tried to feed off of Dark Side energy.
Now this I have to say is one of the most interesting commentaries I've seen so far on the nature of the Force. Rather than the sides of the Force being based upon abstract codes of morality, you are implying that essentially they are based upon the cycle of life and death. I'd find such a system much more preferable, although since life and death are closely interrelated it would essentially explain why the problem with the Jedi is stagnation and the problem with the Sith is self-destruction.
It isn't Vampiricy... not in the traditional sense... against someone who has such knowledge he would have to breach their defense to cause any sort of damage to the subject. Also Nihilus would be less effective in staving off the other party if their defense held because he would have to maintain concentration to keep his power 'up' so his attack would be automatic the next round.

Your 'guard' would not be down... you can still take actions while you focus on creating or controlling the storm (pending your Concentration Skill, D6 game mechanic). While you do suffer penalties for having the power up... you can indeed still act, though with similar penalties as Nihilus would have above for maintaining the power in combat.
You do make a good case here.
You must know the various ebbs and flows of energy to be able to master your own energy to keep it intact after death.

Requirements for Transfer Life: Absorb/Dissipate Energy, Accelerate healing, Control Pain, Detoxify Poison, Emptiness, Hibernation Trance, Reduce Injury, Remain Conscious, Resist Stun, Life Detection, Life Sense, Magnify Senses, Receptive Telepathy, Sense Force, Injure/Kill, Telekinesis, Farseeing, Projective Telepathy, Accelerate Another's Healing, Control Another's Pain, Feed On the Dark Side, Inflict Pain, Return Another To Consciousness, Transfer Force, Drain Life Essence, Affect Mind, Control Mind, Dim Another's Senses.
Since I only read these things off of Wookiepedia, I have never seen this list. It is quite extensive.
A Sith Lord such as Sidious would have many such capabilities or knowledge, while not used in his day to day actions he can have it in his 'aresenal' if needed. He also is noted to possess a plethora of other abilities.
Quite powerful. However, I would point out in the spirit of the original topic that Kreia not only had access to both many of the same Sith teachings that Palpatine did and many of the elite teachings of the Jedi, but ALSO the teachings of Malachor V. Only the following individuals besides her had access to the lessons of the Trayus Academy:

Darth Nihilus
Darth Sion
Darth Revan
Sith Assassins of the Sith Triumvirate
The Jedi Exile and her companions
The True Sith

Since Nihilus and Sion died with the Assassins, Revan is presumably dead, and the Exile and her companions likely never used them since canon dictates they chose the light, only the True Sith Empire would still be able to pass on those teachings. Somehow the likelihood of Palpatine gaining access to that advantage is very low, especially since such teachings would be limited the Sith Emperor and any other True Sith in the Empire as opposed to recruits.
Doesn't work like that... the power goes to you, is corrupted in doing so, to fuel your own power.
I see. You certainly seem to understand Force power mechanics better than I do.
Well he was the last of the Sith Lords... so he had much knowledge at his disposal.
True, and most of what he probably did in the empire was to do a lot more studying since Tarkin and Vader were running the show.
As said above you must know the various ebbs and flows of energy to be able to master things Plageus was stated to have mastered.

I'm not saying one is a shoe-in to beat the other, just your are discounting one party a whole bunch in your estimates. ;)
Here's the thing: One of the few well-done things about The Jedi Masters mod by Trex in my opinion was to point out that there was a major difference between Old Sith Wars Sith (planet destroyers, Force Vampires, immortals, beings who combined technology with the Dark Side to achieve supremecy) and post Old Sith Wars Sith (schemers, manipulators, illusionists). Trex's explanation was the D'arth Syyth, a Dark Side entity created by the Civil War of the Infinite Empire that essentially controlled the Sith and sought absolute destruction of the Galaxy. Now leaving Trex's explanation aside, it is important to note that the Sith of the Old Sith Wars are FAR more powerful in terms of sheer power than their successors beginning with the New Sith Empire. In fact, the Sith of the New Sith Wars-on were much more like Dark Jedi for the most part, radically different from the Ancient/True Sith or planet destroyers like Nihilus. Also, we've seen that even the ghosts of the Old Sith Wars Sith tended to own post Old Sith Wars Sith (Krayt was nearly defeated by Nihilus, Andeddu, and Bane, then severely wounded by Karness Muur, while Wyrlock was nearly defeated by Andeddu himself). Imagine if an Old Sith Wars Sith Lord like, say, Ajunta Pal met Darth Vader in the flesh rather than being a ghost. Ajunta would crush Vader into spare parts! Likewise, Krayt would never have been able to actually stand against the real Nihilus, Andeddu, or Karness Muur.

However, you are right that I should not entirely discount Palpatine in that he was essentially the height of what a New Sith Wars-on Sith could become. But there is obviously a major difference in the power level of the Sith from either era, and Old Sith Wars era seems to have things in their favor.

Darth Hord
06-20-2009, 06:12 PM
Quite powerful. However, I would point out in the spirit of the original topic that Kreia not only had access to both many of the same Sith teachings that Palpatine did and many of the elite teachings of the Jedi, but ALSO the teachings of Malachor V. :
Malachor V as well all know was planet of the True Sith who we know is in fact the ancient sith (kreia likely referred to them as such do Kun and Revan's sith) This means that the knowledge is likely of the same sort found on other sith worlds like Korriban but the difference between the two is that Malachor (at the time of the Mandalorian War) was untouched and Korriban wasn't. Now the only technique that one could make any argument for being unique to Malachor is the "force drain/insta kill" (or whatever you want to call it) that Traya uses on the 3 jedi on Dantooine.

I would like to point out that Sidious has access to all of Naga Sadow's knowledge through Sadow's holocron(among others). In the "jedi vs sith guide," Palpatine states that he has been to the following ancient sith worlds/moons (or atleast had a heavy/powerful sith presence) Khar Delba,Khar Shian,Dromund Kaas,Thule and we know that he has been to Korriban several times,he very likely visited Zoist and Vjun among others. And this isn't counting the information passed down from the members of Bane's order, in which the founder had learned from Revan,Nadd's and Belia Darzu's holocron(though she was apart of the New Sith Wars) so he likely knew some of the same techniques as Traya, plus there we surely knew techniques invented/discovered. As I said before Sidious also had the Telos holocron which has a wealth of knowledge from many sith of all era's and the known gatekeepers include the likes of Ajunta Pall,Bane,Naga Sadow and Sidious himself later.


So I wouldn't put too much stock in the fact that Palpatine didn't get the chance to study on Malachor (though he knows of the planets existence and destruction and makes reference to it)

only the True Sith Empire would still be able to pass on those teachings. Somehow the likelihood of Palpatine gaining access to that advantage is very low, especially since such teachings would be limited the Sith Emperor and any other True Sith in the Empire as opposed to recruits.
Quote:

True Sith Empire=Ancient sith and Palpatine had access to their knowledge. The difference in name is because Kreia doesn't view the Sith empire that Revan created as real sith. So she called the Ancient sith, "true sith" to avoid confusion between the two.

And for the record, Darth Maul was stated to trained in the jedi arts and not just by Qui-gon. (Dark Side Source book I believe) so even kreia's jedi knowledge wouldn't be too far ahead of Sidious's jedi knowledge if at all since also had jedi holocrons such as the Tedryn Holocron.

Also, we've seen that even the ghosts of the Old Sith Wars Sith tended to own post Old Sith Wars Sith (Krayt was nearly defeated by Nihilus, Andeddu, and Bane, then severely wounded by Karness Muur, while Wyrlock was nearly defeated by Andeddu himself).

Bane(who Sidious had Bane's knowledge),Nihilus and Anddedu's holocron (who count dooku had before Krayt which opens the possibility for Palpatine to have study from it) caught Krayt off guard and who's health wasn't perfect at this time hence his reason for talking to them in the first place. I haven't read onward in Legcacy so I can't comment on Muur and Anddedu's battle though Anddedu was killed but Krayt and Wyrlock don't have any feats that put them on the level of "Post Old Sith War" sith such as Bane, Caedus, Vader, and Palpatine or Galen Marek (who although was never anything more than a dark jedi, was trained by Vader in the darkside and even by the of TFU had very little jedi knowledge compared to his sith/dark jedi knowledge so his name is worth mentioning here)

Imagine if an Old Sith Wars Sith Lord like, say, Ajunta Pal met Darth Vader in the flesh rather than being a ghost. Ajunta would crush Vader into spare parts!
What has Ajunta Pall done other than being one of the original sith lords? Being a ancient sith simply isn't enough to make that assumption.

Likewise, Krayt would never have been able to actually stand against the real Nihilus, Andeddu, or Karness Muur.
I never thought Krayt wasn anything special.


I also don't think Kreia's lightsaber skills are superior to Sidious's.

Allronix
06-21-2009, 02:59 AM
Straight up saber brawl would go to Palpatine. He was able to shred three Jedi masters, broke a bit of a sweat with Windu, and dueled Yoda to a draw. Kreia? Combat is her weak point. She's mediocre to awful with a saber unless she's TK-ing it.

Scheming ability: Tough call, but I hand it to Kreia. The main problem is that Palpatine's stunts got found out eventually. Meanwhile, while we know she was playing EVERYONE in K2 like cheap flutes, Exile included, we can only guess at the REST of what that misplaced Reverend Mother managed to do under everyone's nose. We still don't know her true identity! Ever notice she was the ONLY one in K2 who seemed to know anything about the "True Sith?" Was she one of the ones who set up the Mandalorians? Did she set events in motion that led Revan down the Dark Path and right to the Star Forge? The fact we don't know, and the fact she worked so quietly that no one either noticed or could do anything about it, is definitely impressive.

Sith Skillz: Considering the amount of knowledge and techniques available to Palpatine was probably limited big time by Bane's Rule of Two, as compared with Kreia's encyclopedic knowledge as both Trayus's guardian and a Jedi Archivist? She hands him his sorry butt in this category.

Ambition: Palpatine wanted the Galaxy, like any meglomaniac. Kreia essentially wanted to kill God. Palpatine succeeded in his ambition, but definitely had his sights set lower than Madame Kreia.

Darth_Yuthura
06-21-2009, 03:35 AM
Also, Darth Yuthura, Kreia may have beat three Jedi Masters, but how did she do it? She did it the wimpy way, by simply using some uber powered Drain Life (how else would they lose their presence in the Force?). Palpatine, on the other hand, killed three masters with one saber. That tells me Kreia was either a wimp, or too lazy to pull out a saber.

If Palpatine could have done the same, he would have. Sith have no ambiguity in regards to honor, so if old Palpy could just kill them in an instant... he would have. Kriea wasn't just lazy; no one as powerful as she/yoda/palpatine would have become so powerful by being lazy. Palpatine attacked with a lightsaber because he wasn't powerful enough to beat his enemies with the Force.

Darth Vader was all brute strength and no brains... he could win with a lightsaber, but lose in every other way that mattered. A lightsaber is easy to kill with, but a skilled Force user could entirely negate that advantage.

Darth Hord
06-21-2009, 08:35 AM
Sith Skillz: Considering the amount of knowledge and techniques available to Palpatine was probably limited big time by Bane's Rule of Two, as compared with Kreia's encyclopedic knowledge as both Trayus's guardian and a Jedi Archivist? She hands him his sorry butt in this category.

She doesn't hand him anything here. Traya's only advantage is Malachor but as I said above, it is just another Ancient sith world, the only thing that makes it different then Korriban for instance, is the fact that it wasn't raided so it's knowledge was intact. Other Malachor V the only other sith world that we know for a fact she has been to is Korriban and she didn't step off the Ebon Hawk.

She has Malachor and her jedi knowledge vs the following for Sidious.

Sidious has the Telos Holocron: which is basically a sith version of the jedi's great holocron and dates back to the time of the ancient sith given some of it's gatekeepers which inlcude the likes of Ajunta Pall,Darth Bane and Naga Sadow. I would like to point out that two if the mentioned gatekeepers were ancient sith and Darth Bane's sith knowledge comes from Revan's, Nadd's and Belia Darzu's holocron so he has some rich knowledge to put in despite him living only 1000 years before Sidious. Count Dooku also extracted the knowledge from Darth Anddedu's holocron so this is another source of sith knowledge that Palpatine could potentially have access to. That's a lot of sith knowledge coming only from holocrons.

Sidious has also visited the following worlds/moons, Korriban,Vjun,Khar Delba,Khar Shian,Thule and Drmun Kaas. So I don't see how Traya's sith knowledge, Malachor (it's the only known sith planet she traveled to,to study on that we know of and thus can only judge her on that) competes with Palpatine's sith knowledge and mind you that he had access to other force organizations, which I could post on if you like.

RedHawke
06-21-2009, 01:01 PM
Now this I have to say is one of the most interesting commentaries I've seen so far on the nature of the Force. Rather than the sides of the Force being based upon abstract codes of morality, you are implying that essentially they are based upon the cycle of life and death. I'd find such a system much more preferable, although since life and death are closely interrelated it would essentially explain why the problem with the Jedi is stagnation and the problem with the Sith is self-destruction.
That is and how I will always view it, watch ESB and Yoda's comments carefully it alludes heavily to this. Then in Episode 1 Qui-Gon using the term 'The Living Force' it all but seals it (for me).

Since I only read these things off of Wookiepedia, I have never seen this list. It is quite extensive.
It is a very powerful ability and as such you have to have a certain mastery over the force to use it. Also, I treat Wookiepedia as being a 'nice' resource but it is not very comprehensive IMHO anyway.

Quite powerful. However, I would point out in the spirit of the original topic that Kreia not only had access to both many of the same Sith teachings that Palpatine did and many of the elite teachings of the Jedi, but ALSO the teachings of Malachor V.
Interesting theory but not shown to be true in the EU, see the modern levels of power are actually stronger as Palapatine would have access to all the things Kreia boasts plus others that were discovered or created in the time between the eras (Create Force Storm, Doppelganger, Transfer Life, Feed on the Dark Side, Enhanced Coordination, and others).

To analyze the Sith Lord trio from TSL; Nihilus has Drain Life (Or a variation thereof) other than that he seems to be a rather meat-and-potatoes Sith Lord in abilities other than his main one. Kreia can Drain Life but on a more limited scale (can defend against Nihilus it seems at certain moments), she has advanced Telekinetic abilities, but demonstrates no other major powers/abilities I suspect she is also a meat-and-potatoes Sith Lord but with a unique goal (Suspicions garnered from Exile's final fight on Malachor with her). Now Sion is a basic Sith Lord who has advanced his Control of the Force to be able to keep himself going bodily when others would expire, but he is quite defeat-able in other ways than talking him out of it as the Exile does.*

*Sion's "Immortality" could be disrupted by a rather common Jedi Power of Telekinesis but said challenging Jedi's ability to Alter the force would have to override Sion's Control of the Force to dissipate him. Then there is another common power (In the modern era) Control Anothers Pain, Sion's immense pain is also a key to his strength and 'life', eliminate that and you could then defeat him physically.

But there is obviously a major difference in the power level of the Sith from either era, and Old Sith Wars era seems to have things in their favor.
You seem to equate things to to the old era = more ability/power it is shown to us in the various EU stories to be the opposite I'm afraid.

Palapatine has demonstrated levels of power that all the old guard of the Sith couldn't even muster or at best could match in a limited way. Remember in this dual Palapatine has 4000 years on Kreia, that is valuable in that there are things he would know that she wouldn't, and very little she would know that can't be matched by Palapatine in some way. But this is actually somewhat non-sequitur as I was addressing your theories on Nihilus' abilities being god-like and they aren't, in the modern SW era anyway.

Though if the two Sith lords were indeed having a knock-down-drag-out fight their known powers wouldn't be but a small part of the actual battle. IMHO against an unknown opponent you definitely don't want to use 'flashy' powers you want to keep it simple and controlled feel your opponent out during the fight and if there is a weakness that comes apparent then exploit it, the battle would be fierce but in the end it would come up to who won the 'die rolls' if you know what I mean. ;)

R2-X2
06-24-2009, 01:58 PM
Palpatine would win against Kreia. He is way more better in manipulation than she could ever be. He could do it with her like the Exile did with Sion.

Ultimate Vader
06-24-2009, 02:10 PM
Let's see, two of Star Wars' greatest philosophers and manipulators.... Tough call, but I'd go with Kreia. Her mastery and understanding of the Force is far great than Palpatine's (she make predictions that reach farther into the timeline than he ever could), and I doubt that Palpatine could have defeated the Exile at all. Why? 'Cause the Exile is the second most powerful individual in Star Wars history, right after Darth Nihilus. Force Vampires always have the edge over normal Force Users, so even Kreia couldn't stop the Exile.

Plus, Palpatine relies heavily on the Force, whereas Kreia has learned to use it minimally yet precisely. Palpatine would try and raise an army of clones to kill her, but Kreia would simply sneak in and use the Force to pinch a single artery in his brain that would cause instant death.

All in all, Kreia is the predecessor of Palpatine and easily his superior. Besides, the Jedi that Palpatine killed were so pathetic that 9 year old Anakin Skywalker could have killed them just by running them over with his podracer. :D

Your logic seriously failed in this topic. Palpatine is arguably the most powerful Sith Lord, not Nihilus, and the Exile is nowhere near that. The only reason Exile can beat Nihilus is because Nihilus, who is a "black hole", is trying to suck Exile, who is another "black hole" in the Force. Nihilus utterly failed. And he payed the price for that. His death.

You really need to improve your knowledge about EU, seriously. Jedi of Galactic Republic era (that means Anakin, Windu, Yoda, Kenobi, Sidious, and more) are the best generation of Jedi. If I remember correctly George Lucas stated all of this.

And even more, Palpatine collect all the holocron from all places in the galaxy and study all of them. He even create the real force lightning storm, that can create wormholes.

I never see Kreia do something that can protect him against Sidious' attacks. Another failed logic by you.

Your logic on this one is ridiculous it's not even laughable. Seriously, look at the threads in KMC and learn again.

All of Kreia's supporters here have a really flawed logic. Do you even read books about Sidious and his capabilities? AFAIK Kreia doesn't have anything to put her as the winner here.

Also, see these pictures. They will talk for me.
http://i476.photobucket.com/albums/rr123/Titan_Darkseid/Wormhole1.jpg
http://i476.photobucket.com/albums/rr123/Titan_Darkseid/Wormhole2.jpg
http://i476.photobucket.com/albums/rr123/Titan_Darkseid/Wormhole3.jpg
http://i476.photobucket.com/albums/rr123/Titan_Darkseid/Wormhole4.jpg

How will Kreia counter something like that? And don't make pure baseless assumption, "we never see the true potential" phrase, and what-ifs again. It's boring, not entertaining, and not smart move. Learn to use facts.

Sidious for the win. Try again.

darth-nihilus
06-25-2009, 02:01 AM
its proven...in the game its said...!!!
no master from the present would match an ancient sith lord in battle...
if we apply this to the whole universe...palpatine would be no match for kreia !!
kreia is a super force user !! SHE KILLS 3 jedi masters without touching them and not just kill them..also strips the force out from them... !!

and a fact if we think about this in lightsaber combat...
palpatine matches with yoda.. (when yoda is using only the ATARU form)
AND KREIA WITHOUT HANDS CAN HANDLE 3 LIGHTSABERS APPLYING ALMOST THE 7 LIGHTSABER FORMS !!!

kreia is more sith lord than palpatine...

HAHAH at some time... palpatine just by being in front of nihilus would become a force zombie...at nihilus's service...

and lets imagine that palpatine archives to get his super lightning upon nihilus...
what does it do to him ?? he's not even human anymore !! he's a wound in the force !! the lightning just may burn nihilus's robes..and nothing else..
palpy...u'r a loser in front of any ancient dark lord... im sorry

Ultimate Vader
06-25-2009, 11:09 AM
^
Look at KMC, there's already a thread like this. If you're shocked, don't blame me. Sorry, the comparation can only be used for Sith in Marka Ragnos era against Sith in Revan's era.

GL has already stated that the prime of Jedi and Sith are when time of Sidious, Windu, Obi-Wan, and Anakin. See KMC if you want proof.

I still tolerate your kind of post, but in other sites, no one will even support you. Prove it that Kreia has mastered all 7 forms, because no source has stated that. You speak nonsense.

Sidious will destroy Kreia, accept it. See other forums and educate yourself, so you won't sound so silly.

Do you even know that Sidious can use force drain? Check his respect threads, dude.

Another failed attempt of yours. And if you're wondering why I'm so hostile, that's because your way of debating is ridiculous it's not even funny and laughable. Don't even deserve a LOL.


As always, it's up to you to decide the winner. It's your mind after all. Just give some thoughts about my post before deciding it, okay?

Lord of Hunger
06-25-2009, 02:09 PM
@ Ultimate Vader: Again, just like in the Death Star vs. Star Forge thread, I attempt to have a civilized debate and your reaction is to attack the poster. I admit, I've in the past gone overboard with the emotional content of my posts in heavy debates, but I never attack the poster, I always attack the content or at least try to (I've had to cut entire paragraphs from my posts because I was worried that they might be insulting). I do not know if you are having some sort of personal life problems but whatever you reasons are we are just trying to have a civilized debate on these forums. And it's not about being right for one thing, since you learn the most when you are wrong. Redhawke's comments have given me some interesting views on the Force to add to my perspective.

But I think I'm done with this thread as I've said all I can say for now. I'm hoping to work more on my arguments against the moral superiority of the Jedi.

Thank you all. Cheers,

Lord of Hunger

Allronix
06-25-2009, 09:22 PM
She doesn't hand him anything here. Traya's only advantage is Malachor but as I said above, it is just another Ancient sith world, the only thing that makes it different then Korriban for instance, is the fact that it wasn't raided so it's knowledge was intact. Other Malachor V the only other sith world that we know for a fact she has been to is Korriban and she didn't step off the Ebon Hawk.


Actually, I was thinking about how much access she had. With the whole Jedi Archives and Malachor's Sith collection, she had the keys to the motherlode. Librarians are dangerous in that regard - if it exists in the stacks, they know how and where to find it. Worse is that Kreia actually knows how to put it all to use.

Kreia's like Oracle in that her physical limitations have zero effect on her frightening mental capacity. Palpatine wins hands down in a fight, but it would be a very close call on a battle of wits. I'm still putting cash on the librarian over the politician.

Darth Hord
06-25-2009, 09:59 PM
Kreia's like Oracle in that her physical limitations have zero effect on her frightening mental capacity. Palpatine wins hands down in a fight, but it would be a very close call on a battle of wits. I'm still putting cash on the librarian over the politician.

I still think Palpatine has her in force knowledge (if you disagree then, just say so and I'll post the rest of the knowledge that I know he had access to, that I'm aware of). If you would like my friend on another site posted a pro Palpatine essay, and in it he has a "chapter" specifically for his force knowledge, now it's a little bias in opinion but the facts are there and he cites his sources.

As far a wit/intelligence goes, I still give it to Palpatine. This is a man who manipulated the entire galaxy and was playing both sides in the clone wars. He has spent extensive time near powerful jedi like Mace and Yoda and neither (or the other 10,000 jedi in the order) had any clue that Palpatine was really the sith lord they were looking for years. He also caused the destruction of outbound flight to lower the jedi numbers,order 66, the trade federations blockade of naboo,hell he convinced the senate to turn against the jedi who just won a war for them.

RedHawke
06-26-2009, 04:20 AM
Redhawke's comments have given me some interesting views on the Force to add to my perspective.
Why thank you! :D

I would love to get some of you across a table for some good old fashioned PnP RPG action, I could teach a thing or two to a lot of you youngins! As it was taught to me and so on... kinda Jedi-like even! ;)

Gob
06-27-2009, 11:15 PM
It depends on which Sidious we're talking: Dark Empire Sidious or RotS Sidious. And by depends, I mean how long it would take for him to rip Kreia apart and then find out who does her makeup. Either way, Sidious wins be a very large margin.

LordSerion
06-28-2009, 12:26 PM
Lord Sidious - it was stated that he is the most powerful Sith Lord of all time.

For one reason, he has a lot more knowledge at his disposal, since about 4000 years are between them - Kreia has no way to know about those secrets that were uncovered during that time, like Midichlorian manipulation, Life transfer, Force wormhole. Also, he had a Jedi Holocron (Bodo-Baas' if I remember correctly) and I think it's safe to say that he learned quite a bit of the Jedi's knowldge, too.

Two, Sidious often visited Korriban to seek out the Force Ghosts of the ancient ones, so he possibly learned a lot from them in both Force abilities and lightsaber skills.

Darth Hord
06-28-2009, 01:06 PM
Lord Sidious - it was stated that he is the most powerful Sith Lord of all time.

For one reason, he has a lot more knowledge at his disposal, since about 4000 years are between them - Kreia has no way to know about those secrets that were uncovered during that time, like Midichlorian manipulation, Life transfer, Force wormhole. Also, he had a Jedi Holocron (Bodo-Baas' if I remember correctly) and I think it's safe to say that he learned quite a bit of the Jedi's knowldge, too.

Two, Sidious often visited Korriban to seek out the Force Ghosts of the ancient ones, so he possibly learned a lot from them in both Force abilities and lightsaber skills.

I think he did have more the Bodo-Bass' holocron, I believe the clone troopers also took more jedi holocrons when they attacked the temple. Plus he has knowledge from other force groups.

Pikmin
07-03-2009, 03:58 PM
I noticed a few replies mentioned midichlorians, but what are midichlorians? The Jedi of Kreia's era believed the force was an energy field that was all around us, penetrating us. The ignorance of the Clone War era Jedi could have led them to believe that the force was only available via midichlorians(which would mean that the Exile would have had to cleanse herself of the critters.) In Ep IV Obi-Wan echoes Kreia's description of the force(or she echoes him) indicating that while in the Void Qui-Gon gained and passed on the knowledge of no 'chlorians.

But I digress, this is a debate for another topic.

Endorenna
07-04-2009, 09:50 AM
Eh, I'm not sure who would win. I've never read the books where Palpy comes back and displays his true power, and Kreia never pushed herself to the max. They'd probably a) kill each other b) say "This is stupid. We're both manipulative old windbags, so let's join forces and wipe out the last few Jedi, whaddaya say?"