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GreyJediMaster
06-15-2009, 09:57 AM
i know, i know, the Death Star can blow up planets, but the Star forge has forcey stuff. The Star Forge controlled by Malak, vs Death Star Mk 1 controlled by Vader?

(Malak would probably be overcome by the Forge's power, unlike Revan, who only used it to his limits. Whereas Vader woould be more objective, but he wouldnt have the Infinite Fleet)

mattig89ch
06-22-2009, 11:34 AM
star forge, only becuase you can pop out so many ships and droids to fly said ships.

Demongo
06-22-2009, 04:31 PM
Well it depends on the Death Star/Vader. If the Death Star is in front of the Star Forge and is facing it, the Star Forge would be no more, because of the Superlaser. If the Star Forge has time to create fighters(not cruisers) they could fly in and destroy the Death Star with some torpedos. And just think of their sizes. The Death Star is as big as an entire planet but the Star Forge........well it is small(next to the Death Star).

Or maybe both is destroyed! The Star Forge creates fighters, the Death Star destroys the Star Forge with the Superlaser and then the fighters destroy the Death Star:D

So yeah the Death Star has my vote.

Darth Hord
06-22-2009, 06:05 PM
star forge, only becuase you can pop out so many ships and droids to fly said ships.

It takes time to make these ships... Furthermore there is no proof that the Revan/Malak's droids could pilot the ships themselves just because there are droids piloting ships by themselves almost 4000 years in the future doesn't mean it can be done in the kotor era . We see that there are plenty of humans on their Interdictor ships. And according to the SW databank on the sith fighters: ( http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/sithfighter/index.html ) Little concern appears to have been given to the to the comfort of the Sith fighter pilot, and only the most essential subsystems were included, this means that the pilots were "meatbags" otherwise they would need zero comfort for droids.

If the Star Forge has time to create fighters(not cruisers) they could fly in and destroy the Death Star with some torpedos.

Or maybe both is destroyed! The Star Forge creates fighters, the Death Star destroys the Star Forge with the Superlaser and then the fighters destroy the Death Star:D

So yeah the Death Star has my vote.

The problem with this theory is that it took the rebels a long time to get the Death Star plans and then analyze them. Malak's fighters would have no clue of the death stars weakness.

So yeah the Death Star has my vote.
agreed :)

Darth_Yuthura
06-22-2009, 06:25 PM
Star Forge.

The Death star is nothing more than a weapon. The Star Forge is a factory more powerful than the economic force of the entire Republic at the time. It simply represented more destructive power than all shipyards and factories across thousands of worlds.

Let's also consider which one really presented the greater threat to the greatest number of people in Galaxy... that can only be the Star Forge.

Demongo
06-22-2009, 07:35 PM
Star Forge.

The Death star is nothing more than a weapon. The Star Forge is a factory more powerful than the economic force of the entire Republic at the time. It simply represented more destructive power than all shipyards and factories across thousands of worlds.

Let's also consider which one really presented the greater threat to the greatest number of people in Galaxy... that can only be the Star Forge.

Well, maybe the Star Forge was a larger threat to a galaxy but if these two Space Stations would have to face each other the Death Star would win.
EDIT: Well now that I think about it, maybe Revan or Bastilla could use the Battle Meditation to win:p


The problem with this theory is that it took the rebels a long time to get the Death Star plans and then analyze them. Malak's fighters would have no clue of the death stars weakness.

Well if Revan controls the Star Forge he could surely read Tarkin's or any officer's mind to know the Death Star's weakness.

Trench
06-22-2009, 07:40 PM
The Star Forge wouldn't need to produce any war ships or fighters. It would already have millions of them on standby!:flamethro:edeaths::blaze6:

Darth_Yuthura
06-22-2009, 08:13 PM
"Destroy the entire planet."

"That's no planet. It's a space station, Lord Malak."

"Whatever, just destroy it!"


If this were the original Death Star, its superlaser couldn't wipe out the capital ships. The second Death Star was incomplete, so it would've been destroyed much more easily.

Darth Hord
06-22-2009, 08:46 PM
Well if Revan controls the Star Forge he could surely read Tarkin's or any officer's mind to know the Death Star's weakness.
Right so you want Revan (the way I interpreted the OP's post is that Malak's in control of it) to read Tarkin's mind in the middle of a battle across great a distance?(which would require incredible concentration which I have my doubts that Revan or Malak could do it) I don't see that happening, especially since Tarkin believed the death star to be indestructible, and the imperials only thought there was a chance after the rebels got into the trench. And even if they do somehow discover the exhaust port (if this is the first death star) then they still would have to get pass all the turrets, tie fighters, (who have 4000 year tech. advantage which would come into play) there still is no guarantee they can hit it. Even some of the rebel pilots didn't believe it was possible plus the first X-win who shot with a targeting computer (no doubt it was more advanced then it's kotor counterpart) still missed. Luke used the force to hit the exhaust port. (and he wouldn't have had the shot if not for Han)

The OP needs to add more details to this thread. Is this the first death star, the second death star as seen in ROTJ, or maybe a completed death star, location (idk maybe have the star forge's sun and the death star II's shield generator on endor be present) and if there are other fleets available.

Demongo
06-22-2009, 08:53 PM
Right so you want Revan (the way I interpreted the OP's post is that Malak's in control of it) to read Tarkin's mind in the middle of a battle across great a distance?(which would require incredible concentration which I have my doubts that Revan or Malak could do it) I don't see that happening, especially since Tarkin believed the death star to be indestructible, and the imperials only thought there was a chance after the rebels got into the trench. And even if they do somehow discover the exhaust port (if this is the first death star) then they still would have to get pass all the turrets, tie fighters, (who have 4000 year tech. advantage which would come into play) there still is no guarantee they can hit it. Even some of the rebel pilots didn't believe it was possible plus the first X-win who shot with a targeting computer (no doubt it was more advanced then it's kotor counterpart) still missed. Luke used the force to hit the exhaust port. (and he wouldn't have had the shot if not for Han)

The OP needs to add more details to this thread. Is this the first death star, the second death star as seen in ROTJ, or maybe a completed death star, location (idk maybe have the star forge's sun and the death star II's shield generator on endor be present) and if there are other fleets available.

Well that's true. We need more detail. But let's just say that the Death Star is complete and the Star Forge doesn't have any fleet around. And it is controlled by Revan. The Superlaser would wipe out the SF even if there were a great fleet around.

Darth_Yuthura
06-22-2009, 09:32 PM
Well that's true. We need more detail. But let's just say that the Death Star is complete and the Star Forge doesn't have any fleet around. And it is controlled by Revan. The Superlaser would wipe out the SF even if there were a great fleet around.

Why not just say the Death Star's superlaser wasn't operational yet? Or better, that it had to charge for a shot; the Star Forge could produce enough starships to wipe out the Death Star's focusing crystals before it could open fire.

The Death Star also would have been wiped out by that disruption field and been pulled into the star's gravitational well.

Demongo
06-22-2009, 09:41 PM
Why not just say the Death Star's superlaser wasn't operational yet? Or better, that it had to charge for a shot; the Star Forge could produce enough starships to wipe out the Death Star's focusing crystals before it could open fire.

The Death Star also would have been wiped out by that disruption field and been pulled into the star's gravitational well.

Okay you made a point with the charging thing and the focusing crystal but the Distruptor field:raise: The Death Star is as big as a planet. That Distruptor field is not strong enough to pull the Death Star anywhere. But yeah you made a good point.

Darth Hord
06-22-2009, 09:54 PM
Why not just say the Death Star's superlaser wasn't operational yet? Or better, that it had to charge for a shot; the Star Forge could produce enough starships to wipe out the Death Star's focusing crystals before it could open fire.

I seriously doubt it can produce that many number of ships in day. Plus they need to have the manpower for it. I think people have the wrong the wrong idea on just how fast the star forge can produce a ship like the interdictors. It's a giant weapons factory, but it still takes some time for it to produce capital ships. BTW where are the focusing crystals in the death star?


The Death Star also would have been wiped out by that disruption field and been pulled into the star's gravitational well.
We have no clue how close the planet was to the star forge and im not sure if there was a range given for the Death Star's superlaser. That is important information.

I honestly don't think this thread is doable. The starforge and the death stars were two completely different type of "superweapons" with different purposes. One was intended to be a weapons factory with an infinite source of energy to allow it contruct ships,droids and other war related material 24/7. While the other was built to strike fear in any potential rebels, destroy planets and be the ultimate battle station. The ships that the star forge can produce is at a disadvantage from the start due to the 4000 year tech. gap. You really can't compare the two. In any fair scenario the GE has the tech. and probably personal advantage.

Darth_Yuthura
06-22-2009, 10:06 PM
I think that the Star Forge could manufacture technology from 4000 years in the future, but just need to be provided samples in which to duplicate.

I also agree that this is an unfair competition and comparison. You could eliminate the Death Stars with the Galaxy gun, the Star Forge could overwhelm entire star empires where the DS represents one 'invincible' weapon.

Darth Hord
06-22-2009, 10:12 PM
I think that the Star Forge could manufacture technology from 4000 years in the future, but just need to be provided samples in which to duplicate.

It probably could, in fact it wouldn't surprise if the star forge had a fair amount of hardware from the the future, then I suspect the hybrid products would be better then the original.


I also agree that this is an unfair competition and comparison. You could eliminate the Death Stars with the Galaxy gun, the Star Forge could overwhelm entire star empires where the DS represents one 'invincible' weapon.

I completely agree, with you. This thread has too many what if scenarios.

Sabretooth
06-23-2009, 12:37 AM
The Death Star: cutting-edge technology, humongous size, sheer planet-obliterating power. It'd erase the Star Forge in one shot.

urluckyday
06-23-2009, 12:42 AM
Death Star...contains thousands of stormtroopers...therefore awesome!

CommanderQ
06-23-2009, 12:57 AM
Deathstar, all the way. The Death Star obliterates planets, and the Star Forge only builds weaponry, and has hardly any defenses asides from the assigned troops and dinky droids.

Death Star, completely, utterly, and ultimately. Kaboom:D

Darth_Yuthura
06-23-2009, 01:47 AM
The Death Star: cutting-edge technology, humongous size, sheer planet-obliterating power. It'd erase the Star Forge in one shot.

The Star Forge would erase the Empire before they could build the battlestation. Without an Empire, the Death Star would be pointless.

Compare one invincible weapon to an infinite fleet... obviously the power of the Star Forge equals the strength of entire empires. Just because it could be wiped out by a few capital ships doesn't make it any less powerful. What can the death star do? Destroy planets. What can the star forge do? Conquer the galaxy, that's what!

Trench
06-23-2009, 02:36 AM
Lets look at it this way: The Star Forge has its fleet surrounding it. The Death Star has its fleet and a fully charged superlaser.
The Star Forge fleet (which is constantly churning out new ships) engages the Imperial fleet. The Death Star fires its superlaser, but the blast takes out a Sith Cruiser instead of its intended target. The Star Forge continues to churn out Dark Side powered ships, which decimate the Imperial fleet. In about a day, the Imperial fleet is gone, the Death Star is fully charge, but the Sith battle fleet has blocked off all chances of the Death Star hitting its target. The Sith cruisers engage and destroy the Death Star, and the Sith Empire wins.
This isn't even considering the effect the disruptor field could have on the battle. That energy field alone would probably destroy or maroon more Imperial ships than all of the Star Forge ships.

Sabretooth
06-23-2009, 02:56 AM
The Star Forge would erase the Empire before they could build the battlestation. Without an Empire, the Death Star would be pointless.

Riiight, well the Death Star would erase the Star Forge as it is being built or the sun it is leeching energy from. Like seriously, you can't argue against a goddamn superlaser.

RedHawke
06-23-2009, 03:48 AM
Riiight, well the Death Star would erase the Star Forge as it is being built or the sun it is leeching energy from. Like seriously, you can't argue against a goddamn superlaser.
Oh they will try Sabre, they will try. ;)

Though Red has her own massive Factory Battle Station(s) of her own and those would rule them all! :xp:

Ultimate Vader
06-23-2009, 04:20 AM
1. Can SF make ships fast enough before being destroyed by DS' superlaser?
2. Can the ships destroy DS before the superlaser hits SF?
3. Can SF withstand the DS' superlaser ?

AFAIK, Star Forge's durability isn't even close to a planet. Even if both of them have their own ships at start, I'm pretty confident to say that the Imperial Fleet will buy some time for DS to destroy Star Forge with the superlaser.

Death Star ftw.

Revan 411
06-23-2009, 05:16 AM
I'm with Darth Yuthura on this one. The Death Star is no more then a shall of a weapon. Where's the Star Forge is draws its on the dark side of the force. Yes, the death star has a super laser and can blow up things, but the Star Forge has the ability to use the force to corrupt users and species. The Star Forge corrupted the minds of the Rakatan which caused a civil war that, coupled with a plague, pretty much wiped out the species, apart from a few forgotten tribes on the Rakatan homeworld.

And besides, in KOTOR I, we never saw the Star Forge's potential. Revan limited his use's of the Forge when he was in power and Malak didn't use it too much either because he was busy searching for Bastila and her crew. Heck, the thing could have created a shield to block the Death Stars laser or maybe something far worse...

And another point I would like to add is that, it took a whole fleet to destroy the Star Forge. It took only one X-Wing fighter to destroy the Death Star.

Totenkopf
06-23-2009, 05:19 AM
Well, it's funny that the SF proponents conveniently overlook the fact that the SF, coupled w/Bastila's Battle Meditation can't overcome a smaller Republic fleet in a LSM/F Revan setup. If the "awesome" SF can't overcome that, what hope has it against a moon sized battlestation that annihilates whole planets for kicks. Of course, if the DS's weak point were known to the SF forces, it's a different game. But if the DS caught the SF unawares......no more SF.

Ultimate Vader
06-23-2009, 05:27 AM
Btw, Revan don't know the structure of DS and its weakness, as TS never stated it. So we can cut the whole thing about the man who destroys DS. Even if Revan wants to know about DS' structure, it's gonna take a while to get the information, and DS will destroy SF before it's going to happen.

I also agree that we never saw the true potential of SF, but as long as there's no way to stop the superlaser from destroying SF, I'm with Death Star.

Still waiting for someone to enlighten me and tell me how to stop DS from using the superlaser.

Demongo
06-23-2009, 05:31 AM
And another point I would like to add is that, it took a whole fleet to destroy the Star Forge. It took only one X-Wing fighter to destroy the Death Star.

Well if Luke would be the only who attacks the Death Star, he would be destroyed in seconds by TIE-Fighters and DV. It took not just one elite Squardron to destroy it. And the other thing is the Death Star plans. The Rebels had to find those plans if they were to destroy that space station. The Republic didn't get any information about the Star Forge, only it's location. They could destroy it, without any information.

Ultimate Vader
06-23-2009, 05:33 AM
Any takers?

Darth Hord
06-23-2009, 07:22 AM
Lets look at it this way: The Star Forge has its fleet surrounding it. The Death Star has its fleet and a fully charged superlaser.
The Star Forge fleet (which is constantly churning out new ships) engages the Imperial fleet.

It doesn't have a new ship ready every second of they day. Plus they need manpower for them and I already posted there is no proof that SF could pilot the ships without any "meatbags"(and from what we seen in the clone wars, the droids would be inferior to human piloted ships). If the death star has it's floet present then the star forge's fleet is screwed. The Imperial fleet has 4000 year tech. advantage and a wider variety of ships available to it.

The Death Star fires its superlaser, but the blast takes out a Sith Cruiser instead of its intended target.

The Death Star 1 can only target planets/stationary objects and it couldn't change the power of each laser shot(like the 2nd death star does when targeting capital ships) meaning all of them are meant for a planet. An Interdictor (which is smaller then the ISD) ship would have to be anticipating the shot and I highly a doubt 600m ship could contain the laser and not have it go through the other side of the ship and onto its target.

The Star Forge continues to churn out Dark Side powered ships, which decimate the Imperial fleet. In about a day, the Imperial fleet is gone
The ships themselves aren't powered by the darkside or there would have been mention to this feeling when you were on the Leiviathan (before Malak showed up) What is so hard to understand that even for the star forge it takes time for it to build ships like the Sith Interdictor class. How do you expect the SF fleet to take on a Imperial fleet such as the one at Endor that is 4000 years ahead of them and are superior in every way?

This isn't even considering the effect the disruptor field could have on the battle. That energy field alone would probably destroy or maroon more Imperial ships than all of the Star Forge ships.
Assuming it could even work on ships from that far in the future I could just as easily say that the Imperials in charge realize this after the lose a few ships and takeout Lehon and then its fleet destroys the Star Forge, just like the republic fleet of smaller numbers and doesn't have a 4000 year advantage.

Ultimate Vader
06-23-2009, 07:26 AM
^Agreed.

Darth Hord
06-23-2009, 07:34 AM
Sorry ahead of time for the double post
I'm with Darth Yuthura on this one. The Death Star is no more then a shall of a weapon. Where's the Star Forge is draws its on the dark side of the force. Yes, the death star has a super laser and can blow up things, but the Star Forge has the ability to use the force to corrupt users and species. The Star Forge corrupted the minds of the Rakatan which caused a civil war that, coupled with a plague, pretty much wiped out the species, apart from a few forgotten tribes on the Rakatan homeworld.
This doesn't mean anything in a space battle. Notice how none of the members of your party (force sensitives and non force sensitives) can land on it and arent automatically corrupted.

Heck, the thing could have created a shield to block the Death Stars laser or maybe something far worse...
Could have,would haves can't apply. We can only debate on the known information not speculation. And im pretty sure that the superlaser could penetrate shielded planets. (stated on wookieepedia, ill try to verify it)

And another point I would like to add is that, it took a whole fleet to destroy the Star Forge. It took only one X-Wing fighter to destroy the Death Star.
It took an X-wing piloted by Luke Skywalker(who had aid from Han or Vader would have killed him) relying on the force. The rebels spent a long time trying to acquire the death star plans and finding a weakness. Even they found a weakness, rebel pilots thought it was impossible "even for a targeting computer," noticed how the first X-wing's targeting computer couldn't hit the mark and so I don't see how a sith fighter (assuming it even has proton torpedos or anything for this sort of mission) would be able to hit the target when it's computer is inferior.

This thread is like comparing apples to oranges, the Star Forge and the Death Stars were built for completely different purposes.

Demongo
06-23-2009, 08:16 AM
Sorry ahead of time for the double post

This doesn't mean anything in a space battle. Notice how none of the members of your party (force sensitives and non force sensitives) can land on it and arent automatically corrupted.


Could have,would haves can't apply. We can only debate on the known information not speculation. And im pretty sure that the superlaser could penetrate shielded planets. (stated on wookieepedia, ill try to verify it)

It took an X-wing piloted by Luke Skywalker(who had aid from Han or Vader would have killed him) relying on the force. The rebels spent a long time trying to acquire the death star plans and finding a weakness. Even they found a weakness, rebel pilots thought it was impossible "even for a targeting computer," noticed how the first X-wing's targeting computer couldn't hit the mark and so I don't see how a sith fighter (assuming it even has proton torpedos or anything for this sort of mission) would be able to hit the target when it's computer is inferior.

This thread is like comparing apples to oranges, the Star Forge and the Death Stars were built for completely different purposes.

Basically, that's what I said:xp: This "argument" will never end:lsduel:

Ultimate Vader
06-23-2009, 08:24 AM
^No. SF team won't have the time to acquire DS' blueprint and destroy the DS. DS will destroy SF with its superlaser, as I have stated before. And TS never stated about preparation time, so we assume there's no prep time.

Still DS for the win.

Lets look at it this way: The Star Forge has its fleet surrounding it. The Death Star has its fleet and a fully charged superlaser.
The Star Forge fleet (which is constantly churning out new ships) engages the Imperial fleet. The Death Star fires its superlaser, but the blast takes out a Sith Cruiser instead of its intended target. The Star Forge continues to churn out Dark Side powered ships, which decimate the Imperial fleet. In about a day, the Imperial fleet is gone, the Death Star is fully charge, but the Sith battle fleet has blocked off all chances of the Death Star hitting its target. The Sith cruisers engage and destroy the Death Star, and the Sith Empire wins.
This isn't even considering the effect the disruptor field could have on the battle. That energy field alone would probably destroy or maroon more Imperial ships than all of the Star Forge ships.

I assume you don't read the condition for this battle in TS's post. Try again.:spin:

R2-X2
06-23-2009, 11:42 AM
It's like Darth Hord said. The SF can produce droids and cruisers and fighters, but no soldiers, pilots, or any other living things. Also, it takes more than a second to create an entire fleet, some poeple really think that the SF produces a mass of fleets and pilots in a couple of seconds/minutes, but that's too fast. It would take up to a week to produce a fleet. Also, the DS is "indestructable", even if you have masses of battle ships and cruisers. The proton torpedo way is the only way to destroy it, and the Sith won't hear of it and get the Death Star's plans within minutes. It costed the Rebels months/years to get the plans and find the weak point.

At all, the Death Star wins with an propability of 110 percent. ;)

Ultimate Vader
06-23-2009, 01:23 PM
^Where does the extra 10% come from?

Lord of Hunger
06-23-2009, 01:27 PM
Think for a moment about the factor of speed. The Death Star might be a weapon capable of destroying planets, but is as slow as ****! That's how most Imperial tech is, powerful yet slow. The Star Forge under Malak was increasing in production capacity and speed every day. In the Battle of Rakata Prime it was at 300%! Imagine if Revan, a far stronger mind, actually chose to push the Forge to its limit!

Also, remember what Vader said: "The power to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of the Force." The Infinite Empire, the first Galactic Empire when it comes down to it, achieved far more in their tenure of power than what Palpatine's Empire did. World Devastators? The Infinite Empire had not only that but terraformers, and it was likely that they were the same thing. And looking at the Star Forge, the Infinite Empire conquered and destroyed with speed.

I'm also wondering what addition capacities the Star Forge could possess if Malak continued to experiment with it. Could he use Bastila as a conduit to infect the GE's ranks with Dark Side energies? While that might not be the scenario we are discussing it is worth thinking about....

Ultimate Vader
06-23-2009, 01:33 PM
^First of all, think about how fast do the DS fire the superlaser. And also, DS is slow in what category? Because DS can do hyperspace travel and fire the superlaser in a pretty quick time.

Sabretooth
06-23-2009, 03:28 PM
This really is a meta-battle of thoery vs. practicality. The SF may sound like a better tool in theory: a seemingly infinite, highly-productive, labour-less military complex (it should be noted that contrary to what it's sometimes called, the Star Forge is not a weapon, it is a factory).

The Death Star is a space-station first, notable for its superlaser that possesses tremendous power. It is mobile, highly-effective in its function and ready for operation.

The only way these two are similar is in that they are both space stations with comparable amount of defensive capablities and that they were both in possession of Dark Side Empires.

What would I pick if I had to choose one during war? I'd pick the Death Star first - its sheer power and psychological impact would allow it to be used similar to a nuclear weapon, as an intimidation tool first and a weapon second. Even if it doesn't terrorise my enemies into surrendering, it'd devastate core planets.

Edit: Has anyone else noticed that this thread should be in Republic Newsfeed and not Telos? :p

R2-X2
06-23-2009, 03:49 PM
Also most people forget all other lasers at the DS. There are more than 2000 turbolasers and ion canons. If the DS would do an orbital bombardement like the Leviathan did, he would blow up every single cruiser. And, due to the fact the Sith don't know the weak point, the fighters would be lost, too.

Darth_Yuthura
06-23-2009, 04:18 PM
Compare this to the F-22 Raptor. It is THE most capable fighter in the world. You can engage it against five F-15's and it would expect victory, but it can't replace five F-15's.

The Death Star can wipe out planets, yes; but the Star Forge can do the same thing. Only it can do it without limit. The Death Star needs an Empire to operate and fuel it where the Star Forge is powered by a star! Nothing beats that kind of energy.

And if anyone starts complaining about manpower, then the DS would lose hands down, as it requires a million people to operate it. That wasn't a limiting factor for the Sith when Revan was in charge.

Jedi_Man
06-23-2009, 05:37 PM
I'd say its a draw. You have the Death Star and its Giant Laser, but the Star Forge has its energy field and the infinite ship/robot/weapon spawner. More than likely, Sidious would personally power down the field, then he'd be on the first ship to the death star, which rolled its way through space to used the giant laser and blow up the Forge or the star. But teh Forge already would've created hundreds of thousands, if not millions, or ships and robots, enabling them to completely obliterate the Death Star, because having millions of fighters at your disposal is better than a tractor beam and a few TIE's. Then again, The star forge was destroyed 4000 years before the Death Star was an inkling in a mans mind. IWN.

Lord of Hunger
06-23-2009, 06:22 PM
Another factor to consider:

The Star Forge could build the components of a Death Star, as well the droids and fleet necessary to assemble one. :D

Hey Vader, it's Revan! Death Star? I just finished building my fifth!

Darth_Yuthura
06-23-2009, 07:26 PM
Another factor to consider:

The Star Forge could build the components of a Death Star, as well the droids and fleet necessary to assemble one. :D

Hey Vader, it's Revan! Death Star? I just finished building my fifth!

Brilliant. So the Star Forge is worth as much as X Death Stars. So if you destroy one, there will always be more. I'd love to see how many Luke can destroy.

Darth Hord
06-23-2009, 10:18 PM
And if anyone starts complaining about manpower, then the DS would lose hands down, as it requires a million people to operate it. That wasn't a limiting factor for the Sith when Revan was in charge.

Could you clarify this for me. Are you saying that when Revans was DLOTS that man power wasn't a problem for Revan? But was a problem for the GE/DS?

Darth_Yuthura
06-23-2009, 10:28 PM
Well since everyone was making an unreasonable argument about pilots, I figured that it should be a double bladed edge. Manpower isn't a limiting factor, yet people were making it such.

I mark i
06-23-2009, 11:09 PM
you must also consider that the radacans(sp?) were more technologically advanced then the republic at the time. The radacans(sp?) are similar to the forerunners of Halo. so the 4000 year gap in technology is a little bit less than one would consider.

Darth_Yuthura
06-24-2009, 12:50 AM
Welcome to Lucasforums, I mark i.

I think that the technology isn't a factor, considering that you probably could duplicate anything and everything within the Star Forge.

The issue I see is not raw destructive power, but how much any one of these stations could do to influence the course of the Galaxy. There really is no equal to the Forge, but the Galaxy Gun, Sun Crusher, and world devastators all are superior to the Death Star.

Ultimate Vader
06-24-2009, 01:09 AM
^Good point. Seriously. Do you really think Star Forge could duplicate the Death Star? They may have the resources (which I really doubt), but they don't even have the intelligence to do that. And the issue is about Star Forge vs Death Star in a battle, look at the title. Try again.

Trench
06-24-2009, 02:01 AM
Hey Vader, it's Revan! Death Star? I just finished building my fifth!
:rofl:
I agree with Lord of Hunger and Darth_Yuthura on that account. Plus, if the Star Forge wasn't producing droid piloted ships during the games, that's just because they had more than enough Sith Troopers to pilot them. If it needed to, the Star Forge would have produced fighters which were probably similar to CIS Droid fighters to defend itself.

Ultimate Vader
06-24-2009, 02:08 AM
Another factor to consider:

The Star Forge could build the components of a Death Star, as well the droids and fleet necessary to assemble one. :D

Hey Vader, it's Revan! Death Star? I just finished building my fifth!

No. SF don't have the intelligence and technology to build something 4000 years ahead of his time. Fail, try again.

:rofl:
I agree with Lord of Hunger and Darth_Yuthura on that account. Plus, if the Star Forge wasn't producing droid piloted ships during the games, that's just because they had more than enough Sith Troopers to pilot them. If it needed to, the Star Forge would have produced fighters which were probably similar to CIS Droid fighters to defend itself.

Nope. Prove it that SF can create technology 4000 years ahead of him. Otherwise, you fail. DS wins this.

Compare this to the F-22 Raptor. It is THE most capable fighter in the world. You can engage it against five F-15's and it would expect victory, but it can't replace five F-15's.

The Death Star can wipe out planets, yes; but the Star Forge can do the same thing. Only it can do it without limit. The Death Star needs an Empire to operate and fuel it where the Star Forge is powered by a star! Nothing beats that kind of energy.

And if anyone starts complaining about manpower, then the DS would lose hands down, as it requires a million people to operate it. That wasn't a limiting factor for the Sith when Revan was in charge.

DS destroys a planet faster, and so will the DS do the same to SF. The shield of Executor has the power of a medium star if I remembered correctly. Fail. Try again.

you must also consider that the radacans(sp?) were more technologically advanced then the republic at the time. The radacans(sp?) are similar to the forerunners of Halo. so the 4000 year gap in technology is a little bit less than one would consider.

First, sorry about the quadruple post. The number of weapons that Leviathan has is small compared to Executor's. That's a big gap in 4000 years of technology. Fail. Try again.

Combined quad post. No multiple posts please edit your last post or use the multi-quote feature, thanks. -RH

Trench
06-24-2009, 02:17 AM
Ultimate Vader: You have quadruple posted. You are on the DS's side. You fail. And therefore, the DS fails.:xp:
The Star Forge was an entity of the Dark Side. It was essentially a living thing. The Dark Side of the Force has no technological limitations. DS=Fail:xp:.

Ultimate Vader
06-24-2009, 04:14 AM
You do remember this is a vs thread, right? Not a who's cooler? You never give me proof how SF will destroy DS. That's why you fail.:)

Carsew
06-24-2009, 05:22 AM
I agree with Darth_Yuthura and Lord of Hunger. The Star Forge could surely make things 4000 years ahead of its time, since it was POWERED BY A SUN. Just give some schematics and bam! You have your fleet of Death Stars. And to those who say that it takes long to build a fleet for the Star Forge: It has already been said many times that the Star Forge is indeed building stuff at an incredible rate (300 % being just what Malak could achieve, at the time).


You do remember this is a vs thread, right? Not a who's cooler? You never give me proof how SF will destroy DS. That's why you fail.:)

He/She gave you proof alright, the Star Forge will produce Death Stars to kill the Death Star. Problem solved. And as for your quadruple post, it is you who fail. We want proof that the Star Forge could not produce things from 4000 years into future. And SF could get the intel to build a Death Star, and Executors. FAIL! Try again.

Ultimate Vader
06-24-2009, 05:36 AM
^You say SF can produce things from 4000 years into future. Prove it. Because I never see SF do it. And I doubt SF can ever do it. Why do I have to prove that SF can't produce something like that? Do you ever see SF create something from 4000 years in the future? Show it. Don't make insane imagination. Just admit it. Seriously, I like the idea of SF, but please don't be ridiculous. Saying like "and SF could get the intel to build Death Star, and Executors" are absolutely laughable. How can SF do that if SF is already destroyed by DS' superlaser in less then a minute. And you really need to watch the Original Trilogy again. See how fast does DS fire the superlaser.

Powered by a sun is cool, but that doesn't make SF wins in a fight agains DS. Look at the facts. Hoam.

Darth_Yuthura
06-24-2009, 06:24 AM
For that matter, do we really know how large the SF is? We saw how it looked compared to a star. It probably was larger than any planet to siphon energy from a star. How can anyone be sure that the Death Star's superlaser would really destroy it? Maybe it had shields that could withstand the enormous heat produced by the star and could withstand a shot by the superlaser. The Republic ships probably had to penetrate its shields in order to bombard its surface, but beyond the shields...

And I made a point that there was never anything else like the star forge except for the World Devastators. The Galaxy Gun could destroy the Star Forge. The Sun Crusher could destroy it. The World Devastators were regarded as more deadly than the DS because it turned an enemy's own resources against them, so it would be logical to assume a superfactory would always be a greater asset than a superlaser.

Demongo
06-24-2009, 06:56 AM
For that matter, do we really know how large the SF is? We saw how it looked compared to a star. It probably was larger than any planet to siphon energy from a star. How can anyone be sure that the Death Star's superlaser would really destroy it? Maybe it had shields that could withstand the enormous heat produced by the star and could withstand a shot by the superlaser. The Republic ships probably had to penetrate its shields in order to bombard its surface, but beyond the shields...

And I made a point that there was never anything else like the star forge except for the World Devastators. The Galaxy Gun could destroy the Star Forge. The Sun Crusher could destroy it. The World Devastators were regarded as more deadly than the DS because it turned an enemy's own resources against them, so it would be logical to assume a superfactory would always be a greater asset than a superlaser.

For the size of the Star Forge:
http://screenshots.filesnetwork.com/68/potd/1235609106_65.jpg
This isn't really the best pic, but you can see some bigger white points. Those are fighters. So the Star Forge isn't that big.
There is no shield what can deflect a Superlaser. Even if somehow the Star Forge is not destroyed, it's capacitiy drops to 1%. And allright let's say that the SF has some INCREDIBLE shield and the Superlaser, can't destroy it. Then the DS targets the star and there is no more energy for the SF. That means no shield, no fighters, no cruisers and no DS energy. The SF is defeated.

And why do you talk about Galaxy Gun or Sun Crusher? They are not even involved in the battle.

The SF IS agreater asset than the Death Star, but that doesn't mean it can survive it:xp:
:fire11:

Ultimate Vader
06-24-2009, 07:17 AM
For that matter, do we really know how large the SF is? We saw how it looked compared to a star. It probably was larger than any planet to siphon energy from a star. How can anyone be sure that the Death Star's superlaser would really destroy it? Maybe it had shields that could withstand the enormous heat produced by the star and could withstand a shot by the superlaser. The Republic ships probably had to penetrate its shields in order to bombard its surface, but beyond the shields...

And I made a point that there was never anything else like the star forge except for the World Devastators. The Galaxy Gun could destroy the Star Forge. The Sun Crusher could destroy it. The World Devastators were regarded as more deadly than the DS because it turned an enemy's own resources against them, so it would be logical to assume a superfactory would always be a greater asset than a superlaser.

Hm. I never heard SF is more durable than a planet. So I'm pretty sure SF will be OHKOed by DS using the superlaser.

Yuthura, please don't talk about maybe. In a respect thread I accept maybe, but in a vs thread, I accept facts. And the conclusions are:

1. DS can destroy a planet with a superlaser blast.
2. SF never shown the shield that can withstand a planet-blasting superlaser.
3. SF don't have the time to search for DS' weakness and devise a plan to destroy it. Remember how fast does the superlaser fire.

Unless you give me proof that SF has that kind of shield. Please. Don't make baseless assumption.

But stay cool man, it's only a thread after all. I'm just giving my thought.

Insignia_Enithma
06-24-2009, 07:42 AM
Hm. I never heard SF is more durable than a planet. So I'm pretty sure SF will be OHKOed by DS using the superlaser.

Yuthura, please don't talk about maybe. In a respect thread I accept maybe, but in a vs thread, I accept facts. And the conclusions are:

1. DS can destroy a planet with a superlaser blast.
2. SF never shown the shield that can withstand a planet-blasting superlaser.
3. SF don't have the time to search for DS' weakness and devise a plan to destroy it. Remember how fast does the superlaser fire.

Unless you give me proof that SF has that kind of shield. Please. Don't make baseless assumption.

But stay cool man, it's only a thread after all. I'm just giving my thought.

Wouldn't the SF's disruptor shield disable the death star?

Darth_Yuthura
06-24-2009, 07:52 AM
Look at the pic again. The Star Forge is WAY in the background. If you were to consider the size of the star compared to that of the Star Forge, it is at least the size of a very large planet.

I brought in the Galaxy Gun because it shows that there is something better than the DS. Show me something that out performs the Star Forge. And take into consideration that the poll is NOT which would destroy the other, what the conditions are that the battle takes place, or what would be the competition in which they face each other (importance in war or ability to attack)

Carsew
06-24-2009, 08:02 AM
^You say SF can produce things from 4000 years into future. Prove it. Because I never see SF do it. And I doubt SF can ever do it. Why do I have to prove that SF can't produce something like that? Do you ever see SF create something from 4000 years in the future? Show it. Don't make insane imagination. Just admit it. Seriously, I like the idea of SF, but please don't be ridiculous. Saying like "and SF could get the intel to build Death Star, and Executors" are absolutely laughable. How can SF do that if SF is already destroyed by DS' superlaser in less then a minute. And you really need to watch the Original Trilogy again. See how fast does DS fire the superlaser.

Powered by a sun is cool, but that doesn't make SF wins in a fight agains DS. Look at the facts. Hoam.

Why wouldn't it be able to produce things from 4000 years into the future. You say that you have never seen it, like that is proof, and the same thing goes for the shield. In case you didn't notice, in the OT shields are invisible, and so are they in KOTOR, except for personal energy shields. So I would like PROOF that SF can't do any of these things, you talk all the time about proof, without really PROVING anything.

Ultimate Vader
06-24-2009, 08:04 AM
This is DS vs SF. And look in YouTube, search for Star Wars Episode IV if you want proof. DS destroying that planet is a good proof that DS will win a battle against SF. You don't give anything to proof that SF's shield can withstand planet-busting superlaser. You don't give anything that describe how the SF will destroy DS.

Seriously, think again. DS wins here. Why don't you admit it?

Demongo
06-24-2009, 08:05 AM
Show me something that out performs the Star Forge. And take into consideration that the poll is NOT which would destroy the other, what the conditions are that the battle takes place, or what would be the competition in which they face each other (importance in war or ability to attack)

Maybe the Star Forge is more important than the Death Star in battles, because it can create fleets in a small amount of time. But if those Space Stations were to destroy each other, DS would win.

Ultimate Vader
06-24-2009, 08:13 AM
Here's proof that DS will destroy SF in A BATTLE:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_Fc9ubaGAE

Carsew
06-24-2009, 08:17 AM
This is DS vs SF. And look in YouTube, search for Star Wars Episode IV if you want proof. DS destroying that planet is a good proof that DS will win a battle against SF. You don't give anything to proof that SF's shield can withstand planet-busting superlaser. You don't give anything that describe how the SF will destroy DS.

Seriously, think again. DS wins here. Why don't you admit it?

I never said that the DS could not destroy a whole planet. I have seen the OT after all. And once again, start proving that the SF didn't have an incredibly strong shield. And I won't admit that DS would win, because that's not a complete certainty. Just like it's not certain that SF will win, even if it has lots of ships, and an incredible produce rate. So give me some proof, or we can just say that I am correct. ;)

Darth_Yuthura
06-24-2009, 08:20 AM
Seriously, think again. DS wins here. Why don't you admit it?

Because the question is quite open to interpretation. If you put two sides against one another, one with a SF and the other with a DS; the one with the SF would conquer the other with impunity.

Whether the DS can destroy the SF or not is irrelevant. The SF could destroy everything that the DS depends upon to operate. And at that point, the DS would no longer be able to function because it depends upon fuel and resources where as the SF provides for entire empires.

Ultimate Vader
06-24-2009, 08:28 AM
^
The DS can destroy the SF is relevant because this is DS vs SF. It it's: what's better in conquering the galaxy, SF or DS, I would gladly say SF.

It's kinda useless debating this, I'm using Marvel Versus Boards way of debating, I guess that's why you people don't get it.

Darth Hord
06-24-2009, 09:40 AM
I never said that the DS could not destroy a whole planet. I have seen the OT after all. And once again, start proving that the SF didn't have an incredibly strong shield.
I don't think it had one and if did, it couldn't be that powerful. During the attack o the star forge, the sith were pwning the republic until Bastilla switched sides and then the remaining republic ships that broke through the lines were able to destroy it, and it was rather quick too so I don't see how it had it's own personal energy shield. The Empire's star destroyers are way more powerful then the 315m cruisers so if they were to break through the line the it would be destroyed faster. So if 4000 yr. old republic crusiers can destroy it then a battlestation with enough power to destroy a planet (those republic cruisers/fighters don't have that type of combined) firepower can certainly do the same.

@Darth Yuthara
Well since everyone was making an unreasonable argument about pilots, I figured that it should be a double bladed edge. Manpower isn't a limiting factor, yet people were making it such.

Um, it is a factor. The star forge could produce a fleet that is capable of taking over the galaxy. But it needs people to use them. I'd have already posted on how the sith fighter pilots have to be human. And when you are on the Leviathan it was clear that there were more humans in control then droids. And the GE has alot more man power at it's disposal then Revan/Malak's sith empire ever had.

So this notion (which you haven't stated so this isnt directed at you)n that the star forge can produce droid controlled ships has to stop. Just because we see it 4000 yrs. in the future doesn't give you the right to make up the exact same scenario happening here. Because when we start making scenarios like this up then, the thread loses its credibility and this one didn't have much at the start.

:rofl:
I agree with Lord of Hunger and Darth_Yuthura on that account. Plus, if the Star Forge wasn't producing droid piloted ships during the games, that's just because they had more than enough Sith Troopers to pilot them. If it needed to, the Star Forge would have produced fighters which were probably similar to CIS Droid fighters to defend itself.
This is the type type of stuff I'm talking about, you can't use could haves, should haves scenarios because then same can go for the other side. I could just as easily say that, Palpatine upon hearing of the SF decides to make a modern SF in the deep core, and while the GE>>>>>>Rakatan's who built it, the scenario still has an aura of ridiculous to it. And this why we have use the known facts.

Darth Hord
06-24-2009, 09:51 AM
Because the question is quite open to interpretation. If you put two sides against one another, one with a SF and the other with a DS; the one with the SF would conquer the other with impunity.

I assume you mean the the other side of the galaxy. And this is VERY debatable because then this thread could become the Galactic Empire vs Revan/Malak's sith empire, then we would have numerous scenarios to have consider such as the military geniuses such as Thrawn, other superweapons such as the sun crusher,the sith academy on korriban, the size of the said empires (which affects how many people they can recruit), not to mention the technology gap would come into play for both sides.

And take into consideration that the poll is NOT which would destroy the other, what the conditions are that the battle takes place, or what would be the competition in which they face each other (importance in war or ability to attack) You can't speak for the OP, none of us here can.

i know, i know, the Death Star can blow up planets, but the Star forge has forcey stuff. The Star Forge controlled by Malak, vs Death Star Mk 1 controlled by Vader?

(Malak would probably be overcome by the Forge's power, unlike Revan, who only used it to his limits. Whereas Vader woould be more objective, but he wouldnt have the Infinite Fleet)

To me it sounds like a single battle where both "super weapons" were present and I think we agree that the Death Star would blow it up.

If this is a major military campaign then whole thing is thrown out of the ballpark and I suggest a new thread would need to made, with a fresh set of rules and the scenarios be set in the first post.

Ultimate Vader
06-24-2009, 10:35 AM
^
Agreed with Hord, especially on the last argument, "If this is a major military campaign then whole thing is thrown out of the ballpark and I suggest a new thread would need to made, with a fresh set of rules and the scenarios be set in the first post."

These people really need to look again at the condition and battle format given by TS.

Demongo
06-24-2009, 11:22 AM
Hey guys, that's not that serious! Let's just say that the SF creates a fleet before it is destroyed. The DS than destroys the SF and the SF's fleet destroy the DS. And everyone is happy:D

Trench
06-24-2009, 11:27 AM
Hey guys, that's not that serious! Let's just say that the SF creates a fleet before it is destroyed. The DS than destroys the SF and the SF's fleet destroy the DS. And everyone is happy:D

Yay!:D I'm satisfied.

Ultimate Vader
06-24-2009, 11:38 AM
Hey guys, that's not that serious! Let's just say that the SF creates a fleet before it is destroyed. The DS than destroys the SF and the SF's fleet destroy the DS. And everyone is happy:D

Well I can't agree with that scenario, because there won't be enough ships to destroy DS. And there's not enough time to steal DS's blueprint, devise a plan, and send ships to destroy DS. DS wins in a space battle against SF.

I'm still waiting for a good and rational argument from SF's side about how will SF prevent its destruction because DS fire the superlaser. Any other takers?

Trench
06-24-2009, 11:46 AM
It uses a forgotten Force technique devised by the Rakata to absorb, redirect or deflect the energy. Happy now?

Ultimate Vader
06-24-2009, 11:53 AM
Nope. How powerful is the shield. Can it withstand a planet-busting superlaser attack? If you can't prove it, then it can't. There's no "maybe" or "could be", and "it's possible that" in a vs thread. Stay to the facts.

AFAIK there's nothing to support the idea of "SF has a planet-level durability". So if there's no proof of it, then it's a no. Nice, but try again.

Trench
06-24-2009, 12:05 PM
If you don't know the full schematics of both entities of a versus thread, then its inevitable that you will have what-ifs.
All that was known about the Star Forge is that it is a living space station that is overflowing with Dark Side energy. Andif it is used to its full potential, the Force is more powerful than any weapon could ever hope to be. So if Revan was controlling the Forge, and if it was a desperate situation (such as a battle with a superweapon the size of a moon), he would probably have to use it to its full potential and deal with the aftereffects later.

Ultimate Vader
06-24-2009, 12:12 PM
I don't accept what-ifs. Well, it's not in my knowledge of vs threads. Perhaps you should go to KMC, Comic Vine, Marvel Boards, and other sites. You will see that they deal with what's given by the TS. And they always backup their statement with proof. I don't accept a baseless assumption.

Sorry man, I just don't accept that kind of debating.

R2-X2
06-24-2009, 12:15 PM
In this vid you see how long it takes to aim, load all systems, fire the laser and blow up a whole planet: 17 seconds. Can the SF produce and man a whole fleet in this duration? CAN IT? NO, sure it can't!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djZFHTa6TfA
Why don't you admit it?

Trench
06-24-2009, 12:18 PM
I don't accept what-ifs. Well, it's not in my knowledge of vs threads. Perhaps you should go to KMC, Comic Vine, Marvel Boards, and other sites. You will see that they deal with what's given by the TS. And they always backup their statement with proof. I don't accept a baseless assumption.

Sorry man, I just don't accept that kind of debating.

Okay smart guy. What do you think about this: There isn't enough information to compile a good argument for the Star Forge.

Ultimate Vader
06-24-2009, 12:19 PM
For R2-X2:
Thanks for the video, ex two. I'm just a bit lazy to find a good quality video.

R2-X2
06-24-2009, 12:20 PM
Mir'sheb. There isn't enough information to compile a good argument for the Star Forge.
And that's one of the reasons why all your arguments for the SF are just crap.

Ultimate Vader
06-24-2009, 12:32 PM
And that's one of the reasons why all your arguments for the SF are just crap.

It's quite true, and very bold if I may add.

Darth_Yuthura
06-24-2009, 05:00 PM
Well I can't agree with that scenario, because there won't be enough ships to destroy DS. And there's not enough time to steal DS's blueprint, devise a plan, and send ships to destroy DS. DS wins in a space battle against SF.

I'm still waiting for a good and rational argument from SF's side about how will SF prevent its destruction because DS fire the superlaser. Any other takers?

What about how long would it take before the Star Forge's location was discovered? If you didn't know where it was, that would give the SF a significant advantage in any battle. If the DS didn't have a target upon which to fire upon, then its superlaser is worthless.

Trench
06-24-2009, 05:01 PM
What about how long would it take before the Star Forge's location was discovered. If you didn't know where it was, that would give the SF a significant advantage. If the DS didn't have a target upon which to fire upon, then its superlaser is worthless.

Darth_Yuthura makes a good point. Yet another variable to add to the equation.

DarthJacen
06-24-2009, 05:14 PM
That's true, but there are sith on both sides. Sidious and Vader could arange a meeting with the Revan and Malak on nuetral terms, and then learn the location. They would part ways giving Revan the impression that they would be allies move the Deathstar into orbit around Lehon, and suprise attack the Star Forge. Ah, isn't the way of the sith so great!

Trench
06-24-2009, 05:19 PM
Revan could probably pull the deception from Sidious' mind and prepare a fleet large enough to sack Coruscant.

Darth_Yuthura
06-24-2009, 05:28 PM
This is getting pointless. When you start using 'what if,' you dilute the argument.

'Sidious and Vader could arange a meeting with the Revan and Malak on nuetral terms, and then learn the location. They would part ways giving Revan the impression that they would be allies move the Deathstar into orbit around Lehon, and suprise attack the Star Forge.'

That isn't likely to happen, so it shouldn't be used as proof or have a part in this.

darthriddick
06-24-2009, 05:29 PM
Truth is neither Reven nor malak used the star forge to its full potential, Reven cus he/she was smart and malak because he was dumb. ;)

The SF was an instrument of the darkside and as such most likely had abilities far surpassing the mere building of ships. the DS was constructed to blow up planets as an instrument of fear. Also the first deathstar was useless against fleets of ships due to it's inaccurate targeting laser. (planets are easy to hit.)

Now if it was DS2 against starforge I might be tempted to go the way of the DS2 as it could fire pretty fast and was very accurate.

Honestly though I prefer BOTH of them joining up into a super capital ship spawning super laser firing ultra weapon!!!!!! MWHAHAHAHAHAHH!

Yup. This is my first post in freaking ages.

Please make a real kotor 3 instead of this stupid mockery that is the Knights MMO.

Woot.


Yay!.

Hoo rah.:thmbup1:

Demongo
06-24-2009, 05:37 PM
This is getting pointless. When you start using 'what if,' you dilute the argument.

Indeed, the "ifs" are just causing trouble,trouble and more trouble. We know very little about the Star Forge, and also a lot more info is missing. Why don't you accept my version of the battle? BOTH IS DESTROYED!!!!!BWAHHAAHAHAHA!!:D

Trench
06-24-2009, 05:44 PM
I like DarthDac's scenario:D.

Demongo
06-24-2009, 05:52 PM
See? That's what all of you guys should do:
I like DarthDac's scenario:D.
Agree with me, and finally there will be peace!:D There is nothing we haven't mentioned about the SF or DS.

Darth_Yuthura
06-24-2009, 05:57 PM
But I don't agree with that scenario.

I see different outcomes under different conditions, but those haven't been specified beyond 'SF vs. DS' I will admit the SF likely will be destroyed by the DS superlaser, but that's only if the DS is in range of the SF. If the conditions were more clearly defined and the situation was not open to 'what ifs,' then I would fairly judge one way or another that the DS has the tactical edge.

Demongo
06-24-2009, 06:12 PM
But I don't agree with that scenario.

I see different outcomes under different conditions, but those haven't been specified beyond 'SF vs. DS' I will admit the SF likely will be destroyed by the DS superlaser, but that's only if the DS is in range of the SF. If the conditions were more clearly defined and the situation was not open to 'what ifs,' then I would fairly judge one way or another that the DS has the tactical edge.

GreyJediMaster hasn't posted in this thread since he started it, so I don't think we will get any conditions. And I think there is one more thing we haven't mentioned. The DS is VERY SLOW, just remember the countdown from ANH. It was 30 mins I guess? I don't remember exactly. If the SF was right behind the DS, the SF would have a LOT OF TIME to prepare.

Darth_Yuthura
06-24-2009, 08:08 PM
Then I will just assume that people will have their reasons and their own perception of what the conditions would be. I'll just assume Greyjedimaster threw out a bone and wanted to see who would go for it.

And there are a lot of things that weren't mentioned that could be considered. How long does it take to churn out a battleship? A few days would actually be good time on the part of the Star Forge, but not for a battle. These two really can't be compared.

ironheart
06-24-2009, 10:22 PM
I'd have to say Star forge, but only because I was a KOTOR junkie well before I watched the movies/knew what the death star is. Really, it's hard to compare. They're from two different time periods. They're both bad *** though.

Ultimate Vader
06-24-2009, 11:13 PM
What about how long would it take before the Star Forge's location was discovered? If you didn't know where it was, that would give the SF a significant advantage in any battle. If the DS didn't have a target upon which to fire upon, then its superlaser is worthless.

Another failed attempt to turn the tides of debate. Do you even know that in a vs threads, unless the TS stated something else, we debaters assume that both of them knows each other's location. This is just another form of "what-if", which is never accepted in a vs thread.

You really need to go to vs boards in other sites to know more about how a vs thread go.

GreyJediMaster hasn't posted in this thread since he started it, so I don't think we will get any conditions. And I think there is one more thing we haven't mentioned. The DS is VERY SLOW, just remember the countdown from ANH. It was 30 mins I guess? I don't remember exactly. If the SF was right behind the DS, the SF would have a LOT OF TIME to prepare.

Slow in what, Dac? It doesn't take a very long time to fire the superlaser, and it's all DS need to win a battle against SF.

I'd have to say Star forge, but only because I was a KOTOR junkie well before I watched the movies/knew what the death star is. Really, it's hard to compare. They're from two different time periods. They're both bad *** though.

Look at the facts. I'm a fan of KOTOR, but I know where to put my vote judging from the facts. Look at other posts made by me, Dac, and Hord.

Now if it was DS2 against starforge I might be tempted to go the way of the DS2 as it could fire pretty fast and was very accurate.

Smart thinking. Good.

darth-nihilus
06-25-2009, 01:47 AM
HAHA STAR FORGE !!
EASY !!

lets imagina..you just order the mighty power of the star forge (it has something to with the force ..not just lasers) to create a deathstar...and there you go..now there's the deathstar vs the starforge, its army, and a deathstar...

Lord of Hunger
06-25-2009, 02:00 AM
And it's entirely possible to do so.

Seriously, if we are discussing a scenario where the Star Forge and the Death Star are existing in the same time period and in the same Galaxy, all Revan needs are either schematics of the Death Star or of something very similar to the Death Star. The Star Forge then starts pumping out individual sections of the station, along with droid ships to assemble those sections into the complete product.
Slow in what, Dac? It doesn't take a very long time to fire the superlaser, and it's all DS need to win a battle against SF.
Uh, actually it does. The only reason why the Rebels on Yavin IV survived the final battle in A New Hope was BECAUSE the Death Star took forever to get into position and charge up its laser.

And a shield around the Star Forge is perfectly possible. If a little facility on the Endor Forest Moon could project a deflector shield around the Death Star II, the Star Forge could certainly be configured to put up a shield around itself capable of deflecting the Death Star's blast using the power not only of the Lehon sun, but the FORCE ITSELF.

Don't believe me? Let me quote part of your name sake: :D
*evil breathing* The power to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of the Force. *more evil breathing*

RedHawke
06-25-2009, 04:05 AM
It uses a forgotten Force technique devised by the Rakata to absorb, redirect or deflect the energy. Happy now?
For the record a mechanical item cannot re-direct or command the force... only living beings can.

On topic: Also for those of you arguing that the Star Forge is more powerful, riddle me this... even if you get your thousand Sith Leviathans they can't take the Death Star down, she has planetary level shield generators that would simply ignore the turbolasers coming from those thousand ancient ships (Only the Super Laser and or a Torpedo Sphere can take a planetary shield down or overwhelm one since a ground assault is out for the Death Star), let alone the Death Star's own numerous weapons emplacements would be destroying the ships one after the other with better targeting systems, range, and firepower.

One nav comp from one of the "Infinite Fleet" ships is all that needs to be secured and the DS would be on the move to use its Super-Laser on the Star Forge and that would be the end of that. Now since you add in the Star Forge getting to have its own fleet, and make more, you can't forget the fleet that the Death Star would have 'on tap' for the fight, while not as quickly replaceable they are 4000 years more advanced and far more powerful than the KotOR era ships.

No matter the Star Forge's capabilities it takes a very long time to construct a Death Star Battle Station (Minimum 5-10 years with the most advanced construction techniques, the first Death Star took almost 20 years), even for the mighty Star Forge so that would be a waste of resources in any event, personally I would invest in some thruster and hyperspace engine packs for the Forge... but that is likely just me. ;)

In the end though the Death Star wins for the sheer fact it is mobile and armed adequately for the task of destroying targets like the Star Forge.

But to give some perspective here if you asked me which one I would want personally... I would go for the Star Forge for it is more useful than the Death Star... I have made this decision before in the PnP game... and I took a Mobile Factory Battle Station for my HQ.

Demongo
06-25-2009, 06:42 AM
Also for those of you arguing that the Star Forge is more powerful, riddle me this... even if you get your thousand Sith Leviathans they can't take the Death Star down, she has planetary level shield generators that would simply ignore the turbolasers coming from those thousand ancient ships (Only the Super Laser and or a Torpedo Sphere can take a planetary shield down or overwhelm one since a ground assault is out for the Death Star), let alone the Death Star's own numerous weapons emplacements would be destroying the ships one after the other with better targeting systems, range, and firepower.

I'm on the Death Star's part but still, those thousands of Leviathans could destroy it's focusing crystals before it could fire.

And LOH that is:
*evil breathing* The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force. *more evil breathing*
:D

Darth Hord
06-25-2009, 08:43 AM
Seriously, if we are discussing a scenario where the Star Forge and the Death Star are existing in the same time period and in the same Galaxy, all Revan needs are either schematics of the Death Star or of something very similar to the Death Star.
To quote myself:

The problem with this theory is that it took the rebels a long time to get the Death Star plans and then analyze them. Malak's fighters would have no clue of the death stars weakness. And how many moon size battle stations with super lasers are there in the kotor era......

The Star Forge then starts pumping out individual sections of the station, along with droid ships to assemble those sections into the complete product.
It has never produced droid control ships before so it magically can now? And can we be realist here?

Uh, actually it does. The only reason why the Rebels on Yavin IV survived the final battle in A New Hope was BECAUSE the Death Star took forever to get into position and charge up its laser.
30 minutes is a really long time, the GE decided to use Yavin's orbit to get to the moon once they in the system to get around the planet. The SF is floating on top of the sun, what's going to get in the DS's way.

And a shield around the Star Forge is perfectly possible. If a little facility on the Endor Forest Moon could project a deflector shield around the Death Star II, the Star Forge could certainly be configured to put up a shield around itself capable of deflecting the Death Star's blast using the power not only of the Lehon sun, but the FORCE ITSELF.

To quote myself again:

I don't think it (SF) had one (shield) and if did, it couldn't be that powerful. During the attack o the star forge, the sith were pwning the republic until Bastilla switched sides and then the remaining republic ships that broke through the lines were able to destroy it, and it was rather quick too so I don't see how it had it's own personal energy shield. The Empire's star destroyers are way more powerful then the 315m cruisers that destroyed the SF, so if they(and it would take lesser # of ships too) were to break through the line the it would be destroyed faster. So if 4000 yr. old republic crusiers can destroy it then a battlestation with enough power to destroy a planet (those republic cruisers/fighters don't have that type of combined) firepower can certainly do the same.

Darth_Yuthura
06-25-2009, 09:36 AM
Let's throw in another example: Ark Hammer vs. Imperial Star Destroyer.

The Ark Hammer has defensive and offensive systems, but it was not a warship. It was designed to build and launch Dark Troopers, but if you create some bogus what if scenario where this special cruiser would be pitted against and ISD; it completely negates the logic behind any projected outcomes.

Ultimate Vader
06-25-2009, 09:46 AM
HAHA STAR FORGE !!
EASY !!

lets imagina..you just order the mighty power of the star forge (it has something to with the force ..not just lasers) to create a deathstar...and there you go..now there's the deathstar vs the starforge, its army, and a deathstar...

Prove it that SF can create a Death Star. How many times I have to say I don't accept what-ifs and baseless assumption. Otherwise, stay out of this thread.

Let's throw in another example: Ark Hammer vs. Imperial Star Destroyer.

The Ark Hammer has defensive and offensive systems, but it was not a warship. It was designed to build and launch Dark Troopers, but if you create some bogus what if scenario where this special cruiser would be pitted against and ISD; it completely negates the logic behind any projected outcomes.

Another failed attempt. Do you even realize that this post is another form of "will be", "what-ifs", "could be". Bring real facts, not baseless speculation. See how posters in other sites debate.

And it's entirely possible to do so.

Seriously, if we are discussing a scenario where the Star Forge and the Death Star are existing in the same time period and in the same Galaxy, all Revan needs are either schematics of the Death Star or of something very similar to the Death Star. The Star Forge then starts pumping out individual sections of the station, along with droid ships to assemble those sections into the complete product.

Uh, actually it does. The only reason why the Rebels on Yavin IV survived the final battle in A New Hope was BECAUSE the Death Star took forever to get into position and charge up its laser.

And a shield around the Star Forge is perfectly possible. If a little facility on the Endor Forest Moon could project a deflector shield around the Death Star II, the Star Forge could certainly be configured to put up a shield around itself capable of deflecting the Death Star's blast using the power not only of the Lehon sun, but the FORCE ITSELF.

Don't believe me? Let me quote part of your name sake:

*evil breathing* The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force. *more evil breathing*:D

This thread is already worthless. What can SF possibly do to DS in 30 minutes? Please no other bullsh*t speculations . I'm tired of them. Prove it that Malak has create a SF-sized shield that can take a planet-busting superlaser hit. Otherwise you are just another failed poster that cannot prove what he says.

And please, flamming won't work on me. I'm not some foolish fanboy. You really need to be educated in vs threads' way of debating. This is a vs thread, life's hard dude, get on with it. Just accept it, some quote like that means nothing in a vs thread, especially if it's in site such as Comicvine, KMC, Marvel Boards, and others.

Also, votes mean nothing in a vs thread, debate is the most important thing.

Try again and bring real feats of SF that can prove SF will survive a battle against DS.

Darth_Yuthura
06-25-2009, 09:53 AM
Prove that the DS can withstand the disruptor field and that its superlaser can destroy the SF. I still think that if the SF could withstand the enormous heat generated so close by a star, it could withstand superlaser fire.

And SF could fabricate a DS for absolutely no costs whatsoever. It may take some time to put it all together, but I see no reason to assume you can't build a DS if you had a factory like the SF creating all the components from scratch.

And please don't make all this blatant bullsh*t speculation like the DS is fully charged and up against nothing but the SF and that it would beat it in thirty seconds. When you give all the cards to one side, then the opposite side obviously won't win, so make a more realistic scenario.

Ultimate Vader
06-25-2009, 10:03 AM
Prove that the DS can withstand the disruptor field and that its superlaser can destroy the SF. I still think that if the SF could withstand the enormous heat generated so close by a star, it could withstand superlaser fire.

And SF could fabricate a DS for absolutely no costs whatsoever. It may take some time to put it all together, but I see no reason to assume you can't build a DS if you had a factory like the SF creating all the components from scratch.

I already given you the video to prove that DS can destroy a planet. If you cannot proof that SF's shield can't withstand planet-busting beam, then there's no right to even say that SF can withstand the superlaser, because if you do, then you make another baseless assumption.

And please don't make all this blatant bullsh*t speculation like the DS is fully charged and up against nothing but the SF and that it would beat it in thirty seconds. When you give all the cards to one side, then the opposite side obviously won't win, so make a more realistic scenario.

According to Dac, 30 minutes is the time needed to destroy Alderaan, and I have the proof to say SF will in about the same time, or even less. SF can't withstand planet-busting laser. You're the one who always talk "what-if" and "maybe", but never even gives SF's feat that capable of even stand a chance against DS. I think we know who's the one talking bullsh*t.

"I still think it will" won't work in a vs thread, facts and feats will. I really don't understand why you and all the people in SF's side don't get it?

Do you even try to see how a vs thread goes in other sites? Learning is good, you know. Makes human smarter.

No one in other sites will even support you if you can't bring any proof of your statement. I'm sorry to be a little bit rude, but it's the same as you're saying bullsh*ts. Sorry.

I just don't understand why you don't want to debate like other people in other sites.

You already lose here, why don;t you admit it? You don't even try to bring feats that can prove SF will survive this battle, let alone winning this. You failed horribly.

Just admit you and your side lose, and I won't continue with this thread again.

Demongo
06-25-2009, 10:14 AM
I already given you the video to prove that DS can destroy a planet. If you cannot proof that SF's shield can't withstand planet-busting beam, then there's no right to even say that SF can withstand the superlaser, because if you do, then you make another baseless assumption.



According to Dac, 30 minutes is the time needed to destroy Alderaan, and I have the proof to say SF will in about the same time, or even less. SF can't withstand planet-busting laser. You're the one who always talk "what-if" and "maybe", but never even gives SF's feat that capable of even stand a chance against DS. I think we know who's the one talking bullsh*t.

"I still think it will" won't work in a vs thread, facts and feats will. I really don't understand why you and all the people in SF's side don't get it?

Do you even try to see how a vs thread goes in other sites? Learning is good, you know. Makes human smarter.

No one in other sites will even support you if you can't bring any proof of your statement. I'm sorry to be a little bit rude, but it's the same as you're saying bullsh*ts. Sorry.

I just don't understand why you don't want to debate like other people in other sites.

You already lose here, why don;t you admit it? You don't even try to bring feats that can prove SF will survive this battle, let alone winning this. You failed horribly.

Just admit you and your side lose, and I won't continue with this thread again.

Umm.....Vader, no offense but you take this a bit too seriously. And about that 30 min, I'm not sure of it but will check it.
EDIT: I checked the video, and it turned out that it was only 15 mins.

Ultimate Vader
06-25-2009, 10:19 AM
Umm.....Vader, no offense but you take this a bit too seriously. And about that 30 min, I'm not sure of it but will check it.
EDIT: I checked the video, and it turned out that it was only 15 mins.

EDIT: Thanks for the information.

Well, this is my way of educating people. Sorry if it's too harsh. I want these people to act like a real debater should be, like people in KMC or other forums. My bad.

Sorry everyone. I just want to speak the real truth. Just if all of you want to know, I like Revan and Star Forge. Hell, KOTOR is my favorite SW game after JK:JO and JK:JA.

I just want a good debate.

Astor
06-25-2009, 10:29 AM
Debate is good, but to this extreme level (and with the level of hostility) over something as silly as this is pointless.

I've come to dislike vs. threads for this very reason - the enmity they create over something we're all here to discuss and enjoy - the KOTOR series, and Star Wars at large.

I will say this, though - it's impossible to compare the Death Star to the Star Forge, because, apart from what we see in KOTOR, we know nothing about the Star Forge - we never hear anything about it's defenses, shields or otherwise.

Insignia_Enithma
06-25-2009, 10:53 AM
EDIT: Thanks for the information.

Well, this is my way of educating people. Sorry if it's too harsh. I want these people to act like a real debater should be, like people in KMC or other forums. My bad.

Sorry everyone. I just want to speak the real truth. Just if all of you want to know, I like Revan and Star Forge. Hell, KOTOR is my favorite SW game after JK:JO and JK:JA.

I just want a good debate.

Not everyone wants your "Education", that's not why the come to this board. In the short time I've been here all of the Vs. threads I've looked in have been full of unnecessary hostility. It's not like this would ever happen, and so get so aggressive over it is... well quite pointless.

Darth_Yuthura
06-25-2009, 11:05 AM
Just admit you and your side lose, and I won't continue with this thread again.

This is maybe not the best way to 'educate' people. It is essentially saying that if others agree with you, then there will be no conflict. That is exactly opposite of what you claim to be going for. You're not going to persuade people by telling them they're wrong again and again.

This thread is very relative and widely open to interpretation. If the specifications of the competition are narrowed down to having the DS and Star Forge being pitted against one another under your assumptions, then yes, the Death Star will win. Under the conditions I would use, the SF's position is not known and both sides have months of preparations before this competition actually happens.

Ultimate Vader
06-25-2009, 11:14 AM
^Nope. This is how I educate (perhaps share information is a better word) people here. I want all of you to use sources, feats and facts, not baseless and false assumption.

By the way, I grow tired of this. It's up for you to decide who's the winner. I'm just asking one thing, give some thoughts about my posts before you decide, okay?:)

Insignia_Enithma
06-25-2009, 11:24 AM
^Nope. This is how I educate (perhaps share information is a better word) people here. I want all of you to use sources, feats and facts, not baseless and false assumption.

By the way, I grow tired of this. It's up for you to decide who's the winner. I'm just asking one thing, give some thoughts about my posts before you decide, okay?:)

So let me get this straight, you educate people. By being hostile and aggressive. Hmm... maybe wife beater are right and should beat their women to "educate" them.

People have used sources feats and facts, we know that the star forge is powered by a start, can build things incredibly fast, can create intelligent droids, ect...

It seems like a preatty equal fight just from that.

Darth_Yuthura
06-25-2009, 11:33 AM
The problem is that the conditions of victory, the way the battle is set up, and how the fight is staged hasn't been specified. Without those, this entire debate is pointless.

And the conditions for victory are critical because victory doesn't explicitly mean one side must destroy the other. If you compared the Rebel blockade runner to an ISD, victory may have been that Princess Leia's ship escaped the ISD... not that it could destroy the ISD.

All this hostility, complaints, demands for proof, and false assumptions are not going to get anywhere. You can't make a clear answer w/out all the pieces to make an effective argument. We don't know whether the SF could survive an attack by the DS, but I really don't care if it can't. I would still prefer a SF over a DS.

Carsew
06-25-2009, 11:57 AM
Another failed attempt. Do you even realize that this post is another form of "will be", "what-ifs", "could be". Bring real facts, not baseless speculation. See how posters in other sites debate.


If they "debate" like you do on other sites, then I think no one wants to. The only thing you say to support the DS is "It has a planet busting superlaser, i totally PWNS, OWNS and KILLZ EVERYTHING!!!" and then you say that everyone else fails. I'm sorry, but you really should get out more, maybe watch a debate on TV or something. You'll see that they don't do it as you do. And for the "what if's": It is a total what if that the Star Forge and Death Star are pitted against each other in the first place, so the whole thread, espically your posts, are based on "what-ifs", "will be's" and "could be's". Which makes essientally all your posts, total bull****. Since you obviously can't debate, understand how a debate works, or anything about them, you fail. Sorry if I seemed mean, but I just got so annoyed by your stupid posts that just say things about how others fail, and not how much you fail. And don't try to educate people, since most people here have probably gratuated, which means that you don't have to educate them, maybe it's they that should educate you instead, you obviously need it.

Demongo
06-25-2009, 12:01 PM
If they "debate" like you do on other sites, then I think no one wants to. The only thing you say to support the DS is "It has a planet busting superlaser, i totally PWNS, OWNS and KILLZ EVERYTHING!!!" and then you say that everyone else fails. I'm sorry, but you really should get out more, maybe watch a debate on TV or something. You'll see that they don't do it as you do. And for the "what if's": It is a total what if that the Star Forge and Death Star are pitted against each other in the first place, so the whole thread, espically your posts, are based on "what-ifs", "will be's" and "could be's". Which makes essientally all your posts, total bull****. Since you obviously can't debate, understand how a debate works, or anything about them, you fail. Sorry if I seemed mean, but I just got so annoyed by your stupid posts that just say things about how others fail, and not how much you fail. And don't try to educate people, since most people here have probably gratuated, which means that you don't have to educate them, maybe it's they that should educate you instead, you obviously need it.

Please can we stop the argument? But really. No more aggressive posts.

Trench
06-25-2009, 12:01 PM
Well it would seem that the Star Forge now has more votes than the Death Star.

Carsew
06-25-2009, 12:34 PM
Please can we stop the argument? But really. No more aggressive posts.

I agree, I'm sorry for the aggressive post, but I just needed to tell him that. As I said in my post I was just so annoyed by his behavior. I totally agree with stopping the argument, I have said what I have to say, and I won't say more on the subject.

Darth Hord
06-25-2009, 01:33 PM
I have been trying to make my posts/arguments civil and not to aggressive and I hope that they haven't come off as aggressive. I'm perfecting willing to continue this discussion if we create a fair scenario as this thread has no details given.

However I can't say that I'm not disappointed that some of my posts/counterarguments have been ignored when I addressed some issues I have with SF's sides arguments. Then instead of addressing my counter argument someone would just post the exact same thing that my counter argument was addressing.

But like I said, I believe we can discuss this civilly in a new thread, if someone from the SF would "P.M." me, then I'm sure we could come up with a realistic scenario if people want to continue on this topic or a similar one. (ex. GE vs JCW SE)

Lord of Hunger
06-25-2009, 01:57 PM
Yeah, I have not made one flame remark towards anyone on this thread. Witty? Sure. Flame? No. I wanted to have a decent debate with Ultimate Vader, but apparently that was not his wish.

And my apology Darth Hord for not replying to your counter arguments. I was primarily focused on Ultimate Vader's arguments. I will reply now:

The problem with this theory is that it took the rebels a long time to get the Death Star plans and then analyze them. Malak's fighters would have no clue of the death stars weakness.

And how many moon size battle stations with super lasers are there in the kotor era......
Well consider the massive difference between the resources of Revan's Sith Empire and the Rebel Alliance. It'd be easier for Revan and/or Malak to find out what the Star Forge's weakness is, and if it is Revan in command he's likely to think of it pretty quickly.
It has never produced droid control ships before so it magically can now? And can we be realist here?
The Star Forge did not produce Sith warships until Revan's Sith feed in the schematics. We are talking the Star Forge, mate. That means that as long as it has the schematics it can build ANYTHING MECHANICAL.
30 minutes is a really long time, the GE decided to use Yavin's orbit to get to the moon once they in the system to get around the planet. The SF is floating on top of the sun, what's going to get in the DS's way.
Disruptor field that Darth Yuthura mentions, Sith fleet....
I don't think it (SF) had one (shield) and if did, it couldn't be that powerful. During the attack o the star forge, the sith were pwning the republic until Bastilla switched sides and then the remaining republic ships that broke through the lines were able to destroy it, and it was rather quick too so I don't see how it had it's own personal energy shield. The Empire's star destroyers are way more powerful then the 315m cruisers that destroyed the SF, so if they(and it would take lesser # of ships too) were to break through the line the it would be destroyed faster. So if 4000 yr. old republic crusiers can destroy it then a battlestation with enough power to destroy a planet (those republic cruisers/fighters don't have that type of combined) firepower can certainly do the same.
Just because the Star Forge did not have a shield then does not mean one is impossible. Usually the Rakata/Sith would rely on the disruptor field, but it is perfectly possible to reconfigure that station to produce a shield (given that the Apex of the Infinite Empire has an Infinite Power Source).

Darth Hord
06-25-2009, 02:04 PM
And my apology Darth Hord for not replying to your counter arguments. I was primarily focused on Ultimate Vader's arguments. I will reply now:

*chokes* Apology accepted Captain Needa *chokes* :vadar:

I'll address your post a little later as I'm on my way out now.

Darth Hord
06-25-2009, 06:09 PM
Well consider the massive difference between the resources of Revan's Sith Empire and the Rebel Alliance. It'd be easier for Revan and/or Malak to find out what the Star Forge's weakness is,
I assume you mean the Death Star, not the star forge. But you have to look at how the rebel leaders first found about it purposes. The rebels knew of the death star pior to Vade capturing the rebel leaders and bringing them to Palpatine on the death star (during the force unleashed game,) where he revealed the stations name and purpose. So unless Revan tries to pull a starkiller move, then his empire would find out the hard way. And again your coming up with a scenario that makes this a major military campaign but as I have been saying I would like to make a new thread with a fair scenario because this is becoming the Galactic Empire vs Revan/Malak's sith empire (and this would allow for other circumstances not mentioned to come into play, so we must haves some sort of guideline, feel free to message me if anyone wants to) Otherwise you can't compare the two due to their different purposes.(The OP really made a bad thread)

and if it is Revan in command he's likely to think of it pretty quickly.
Revan is not a military technician, he would need to acquire the death star plans and have a technician team extensively look over them (again this assuming were talking about the DS 1 and not some version of the second DS which has no exhaust port) as the empire looked over the exhaust port as a weakness then so could his. (im not saying they will but it is certainly a possibility) but Revan himself wont solve it, his best mechanical feat is building HK47 but building a droid (not matter how cool HK is) is not comparable to this.

The Star Forge did not produce Sith warships until Revan's Sith feed in the schematics.
And where will he get these schematics? No droids in his time could do this. And the empire doesn't make use of them. (i will say it again, we need to come up with a scenario because this can go a lot of different ways)

Lord of Hunger
06-25-2009, 06:26 PM
I assume you mean the Death Star, not the star forge.
WHOOPS! Sorry, yes I mean the Death Star.
But you have to look at how the rebel leaders first found about it purposes. The rebels knew of the death star pior to Vade capturing the rebel leaders and bringing them to Palpatine on the death star (during the force unleashed game,) where he revealed the stations name and purpose. So unless Revan tries to pull a starkiller move, then his empire would find out the hard way. And again your coming up with a scenario that makes this a major military campaign but as I have been saying I would like to make a new thread with a fair scenario because this is becoming the Galactic Empire vs Revan/Malak's sith empire (and this would allow for other circumstances not mentioned to come into play, so we must haves some sort of guideline, feel free to message me if anyone wants to) Otherwise you can't compare the two due to their different purposes.(The OP really made a bad thread)
I'll have to agree with the very last statement. Too many variables....
Revan is not a military technician, he would need to acquire the death star plans and have a technician team extensively look over them (again this assuming were talking about the DS 1 and not some version of the second DS which has no exhaust port) as the empire looked over the exhaust port as a weakness then so could his. (im not saying they will but it is certainly a possibility) but Revan himself wont solve it, his best mechanical feat is building HK47 but building a droid (not matter how cool HK is) is not comparable to this.
It wouldn't be too hard to assemble a tech team based upon the Sith Empire's finest. As for getting the plans, you just gave me a way: HK-47. There is no one more perfect for the job than our favorite assassin droid.

But I agree this thread was badly constructed. I think we need to create an entirely new one: Revan's Sith Empire vs. Palpatine's Galactic Empire. That might be very fun.

Now that question is: Do you want to make it or shall I?

Darth Hord
06-25-2009, 06:30 PM
Disruptor field that Darth Yuthura mentions
Right, the disruptor field affects electrical systems not superlasers. The disruptor field could cause it’s electrical systems to overload but due to it’s size it would stay in orbit and not crash into the planet (if it was in Lehon’s orbit)

Sith fleet....
Wont stand much of a chance, the first death star had the following armaments:

Scattered across the Death Star's surface were thousands of weapons emplacements: a total of 10,000 turbolaser batteries, 2,500 laser cannons, 2,500 ion cannons and 768 tractor beam projectors. The station carried a crew of 265,675, plus 52,276 gunners, 607,360 troops, 25,984 stormtroopers, 42,782 ship support staff, and 167,216 pilots and support crew. The station also carried 7,200 starfighters, four strike cruisers, 3,600 assault shuttles, 1,400 AT-ATs, 1,400 AT-STs, 1,860 drop ships, and more. (source is the sw databank

And the second death star would be a lot stronger. And even at 4% power the beam of the first death star could destroy a 3000 km ship as did to the rebel alliance's Lucrehulk-class battleship called the Fortressa.

The following is Tarkins thoughts in the death star novel:

There must be trade-offs, he had said. In order to mount a weapon of mundicidal means, shielding capabilities would have to be downgraded to a rudimentary level. Power, Bevel had said, was not infinite, even on a station this size, fueled by the largest hypermatter reactor ever built. However, given the surface-to-vacuum defenses, the number of fighters, turbolaser batteries, charged-particle blasters, magnetic railguns, proton torpedo banks, ion cannons, and a host of other protective devices, no naval ship of any size would be even a remote threat. A fleet of Imperial-class Star Destroyers—even a fleet of Super-class Star Destroyers, should such a thing ever exist—would offer no real danger to the battle station once it was fully operational. Given all that, a shield system that was less than perfect at times wasn't such a high price to pay for the ability to vaporize a planet.

Though he is probably arrogant there is truth in his words (just look at the armaments i posted, i am aware that i posted info about the shield capabilities but i am all for getting the facts out) and now we know how the rebels destroyed it with starfighters but we have to consider the following facts about it's destruction, before we can assume that the same could happen here.

1.The rebels knew it weakness if the death star, if the Malak(who the OP puts in charge of the SF in the original post) doesn't know it's weakness he will be sending his interdictors to their destruction. Should the DS come with a fleet (which it likely would because once the empire knows of the SF,they would of the fleet present) then that further increases the Empire's chances at a victory because the fleet would be superior in every single way except maybe numbers (no number is given for the sith at the battle of the star forge though we have to consider the size of the GE fleet at Endor and the fact that if the GE knew of the star forge's location they likely know it's the capital of Malak's war effort so they would probably send a bigger fleet. )

2.The rebels got real lucky.(or as the jedi would say, they had the force on their side) Most the of the rebel starfighters were destroyed, Luke was the only fighter to really escape the trench run (Vader let Wedge escape because he was no longer a threat) and Luke only got the shot off because Han's interference.

3. To quote myself regarding the exhaust port:
And even if they do somehow discover the exhaust port (if this is the first death star) then they still would have to get pass all the turrets, tie fighters, (who have 4000 year tech. advantage which would come into play) there still is no guarantee they can hit it. Even some of the rebel pilots didn't believe it was possible plus the first X-win who shot with a targeting computer (no doubt it was more advanced then it's kotor counterpart) still missed. Luke used the force to hit the exhaust port. (and he wouldn't have had the shot if not for Han) The sith fighter aren't known for having proton torpedos either, for the record. (im sure they may have some of the sort (or we could give them it in a new fair thread) but it had to be brought up)

Just because the Star Forge did not have a shield then does not mean one is impossible. Usually the Rakata/Sith would rely on the disruptor field, but it is perfectly possible to reconfigure that station to produce a shield (given that the Apex of the Infinite Empire has an Infinite Power Source).

They would have to know when the Empire was coming for that to happen. Not to mention then they would have face even more then before since without the disruptor field to take down a couple of SD’s. But the Empire has man resources available to attack the temple. If they reroute the disruptor field to an energy shield then the planet would be unprotected from being glassed by SDs or blown up by the DS And I would like post the following from the "destruction of Alderaan's" page" from wookieepedia

Although it has been debated, a shield effect is still present in the post-1997 version of Alderaan's destruction. In frames 4 and 5, the glow is concentrated in an area surrounding the point of impact, like shield interactions seen elsewhere in the films. The uniform glow also extends far out into space, beyond the limits of natural atmospheres. The original novelization of the film also has a reference to defense systems on Alderaan, which were as strong as any in the Empire, and helped make the demonstration even more impressive

I will say this again, I believe we need to make a new thread and I welcome anyone to help me make the parameters because there are too many scenarios that can happen here, due to the vagueness of this thread.

Trench
06-25-2009, 06:34 PM
The Empire wouldn't be able to touch the temple. Any non-Force sensitives wouldn't be able to get near it, and the Empire's Inquisitors and Dark Jedi wouldn't bother trying to negotiate with either of the Rakata clans. Not that they would have the patience to even try to understand the Rakatan language.

Darth Hord
06-25-2009, 06:34 PM
If you want to create such a thread then message me so we can set up the proper scenario

Darth Hord
06-25-2009, 06:49 PM
The Empire wouldn't be able to touch the temple. Any non-Force sensitives wouldn't be able to get near it, and the Empire's Inquisitors and Dark Jedi wouldn't bother trying to negotiate with either of the Rakata clans. Not that they would have the patience to even try to understand the Rakatan language.

What's to stop Sidious or Vader from pulling a Revan and ripping the language from their mind ? Or they could lie like Revan did and say they want to destroy it thus having the rakatan open it for them. Or they could tunnel their way underneath into the catacombs... I also think your giving the inquisitors the common stereo type that all dark siders are morons and only tactic is brute force, some of them are quite intelligent.

Edit: Sorry for the double post

Allronix
06-25-2009, 09:04 PM
If I were in charge of the Sith, and had to pick? the Star Forge wins hands-down. While it cannot match the Death Star in sheer kaboom, the Death Star is limited by only being able to hit one target, and be in one place at a time. Meanwhile, the Star Forge can crank out huge fleets, all the better for striking many targets at once, or suffocating the space lanes. Far more useful for the big picture.

Also, there didn't seem to be any two-meter exhaust ports or equivilent therof in the Rakatan design. The closest were the stabilizers, which took several capital ships to take out.

Lord of Hunger
06-25-2009, 09:12 PM
What's to stop Sidious or Vader from pulling a Revan and ripping the language from their mind ? Or they could lie like Revan did and say they want to destroy it thus having the rakatan open it for them. Or they could tunnel their way underneath into the catacombs... I also think your giving the inquisitors the common stereo type that all dark siders are morons and only tactic is brute force, some of them are quite intelligent.

Edit: Sorry for the double post
Well, the Elders are not stupid. They were already betrayed by Revan and Malak once, and Revan has to prove himself again in order to regain their trust. The only way Sidious or Vader would be able to access the Temple would be to ally themselves with the One, bring him the Tome so his tribe's shamans could open the Temple. Even so, would they even be able to reach the planet? Not only would the planet be swarming with Dark Jedi, Sith Acolytes, Sith Troopers, and Droids (more so due to the invasion) that would guard the temple and prevent any tunneling, but there would already be a massive fleet preventing anyone from getting near the planet.

Also I would point out that Revan's Sith Empire has a lot more Force users than the Galactic Empire. But that's a point for a future thread.

Darth Hord
06-25-2009, 09:40 PM
Well, the Elders are not stupid. They were already betrayed by Revan and Malak once, and Revan has to prove himself again in order to regain their trust.
After thinking about this I have to somewhat agree, Vader looks menacing in the suit, and Palpatine well we all know what he looks, neither of them look "good." Though I wonder what the Elders reaction would when they hear that they want to destroy the star forge.

The only way Sidious or Vader would be able to access the Temple would be to ally themselves with the One, bring him the Tome so his tribe's shamans could open the Temple.
Or they could do my theory of digging underneath it. Or if they have enough artillery, I would love to see how much energy the temple's force field could take from various vehicles like the ATST.

Even so, would they even be able to reach the planet?
There are various ways to get down to the surface.

Not only would the planet be swarming with Dark Jedi, Sith Acolytes, Sith Troopers, and Droids (more so due to the invasion) that would guard the temple and prevent any tunneling, but there would already be a massive fleet preventing anyone from getting near the planet.
Should the sith fleet try to prevent them from reaching the planet (and thus not getting near the disruptor field) a massive space battle would occur and the facts are the Galactic Empire has a big tech. advantage, more variety of ships and man power (overall) to its advantage.

Also I would point out that Revan's Sith Empire has a lot more Force users than the Galactic Empire. But that's a point for a future thread.

Which is both a good and bad thing.

I have a few scenario ideas that I would like to run by you if we do a full scale war thread.

Carsew
06-26-2009, 03:44 AM
Or they could do my theory of digging underneath it. Or if they have enough artillery, I would love to see how much energy the temple's force field could take from various vehicles like the ATST.

Even if they try to dig underneath it, the temple shields would probably stop them. Otherwise they would just come up to the Temples defenses, and no matter how strong both Vader and Sidious are, they will get killed by the hundreds of droids and Dark Jedi. And wasn't the Force Field made by the Force? If so, then it could probably stand against most of the things Vader threw at them.

There are various ways to get down to the surface.

I have to agree with that, but someone said that the DS was as big as a planet, and therefore wouldn't be caught by the disruptor field, which is not true, the DS is, to quote Ben, the size of a small moon. Which enables it to be caught by the field and be sucked down.

Should the sith fleet try to prevent them from reaching the planet (and thus not getting near the disruptor field) a massive space battle would occur and the facts are the Galactic Empire has a big tech. advantage, more variety of ships and man power (overall) to its advantage.

Yeah, but the Sith ships have some sort of protection against it, according to Carth, and since they don't get caught in it, we have to assume thats true. So the Empire ships would indeed crash, and suddenly, the DS is alone.

RedHawke
06-26-2009, 04:23 AM
I'm on the Death Star's part but still, those thousands of Leviathans could destroy it's focusing crystals before it could fire.
You'd have to get through the planetary level shields, and as I pointed out only a Super-Laser or Torpedo Sphere are capable of that so its quite impossible for simple Sith Leviathans to get to the weapon to damage it...

@ Darth Hord interesting tidbit from the novel but that conflicts with some sources I have seen and are accepted about the Death Star's shield system as being listed as a heavy planetary level system. But you are correct the nauseating array of weapons are ample to keep away simple capital ships.

Darth_Yuthura
06-26-2009, 04:28 AM
You'd have to get through the planetary level shields, and as I pointed out only a Super-Laser or Torpedo Sphere are capable of that so its quite impossible for simple Sith Leviathans to get to the weapon to damage it...

So are you saying that all we saw in Episode IV couldn't have happened? I seemed to remember some big space battle near the station's surface at the end.

Insignia_Enithma
06-26-2009, 04:30 AM
So are you saying that all we saw in Episode IV couldn't have happened? I seemed to remember some big space battle near the station's surface at the end.

RH may be thinking of the DS II where they had to go to endor disable the shield ect...

RedHawke
06-26-2009, 04:40 AM
So are you saying that all we saw in Episode IV couldn't have happened? I seemed to remember some big space battle near the station's surface at the end.
How long since you watched the Ep IV movie?

There is no 'battle' with capital ships, they (Rebels) do send fighters which the DS never even activated the main shield as fighters were not considered a threat, but the Rebels also have plans for a 'weakness' in the battle station and attempt to exploit it in the raid. Now that was what I saw, what was it you saw?

And it still doesn't alter what I said before.

Darth_Yuthura
06-26-2009, 04:59 AM
Yes, it does. X-wings are NOT Torpedo Spheres. Y-wings are NOT Superlasers. Therefore, it is not impossible for anything but those two weapons to penetrate the DS's defenses.

RedHawke
06-26-2009, 05:02 AM
Yes, it does. X-wings are NOT Torpedo Spheres. Y-wings are NOT Superlasers. Therefore, it is not impossible for anything but those two weapons to penetrate the DS's defenses.
Has nothing to do with my points or the points I was responding to, nice try... moving on.

Sabretooth
06-26-2009, 06:27 AM
*checks thread-srsness-o-meter*

IT'S OVER 9000 !!!

Insignia_Enithma
06-26-2009, 07:03 AM
*checks thread-srsness-o-meter*

IT'S OVER 9000 !!!

It broke my scouter!

Trench
06-26-2009, 09:17 AM
The Dark Side of the Force overcomes the need for schematics!
If (yes another if!) Revan or one of his Dark Jedi were to get in their starfighters personally, they would probably be able to find the weakness through the force, then direct the bulk of their starfighter forces to it.

Darth Hord
06-26-2009, 09:43 AM
Even if they try to dig underneath it, the temple shields would probably stop them.
There's nothing to suggest that they go under ground. I'm convinced that forcefield is only ground level(the force field doesn't stop dark jedi from entering the temple itself from the top and im talking about force field not disruptor field), hell it maybe only on the door, it's not like anyone who crashed landed before has any heavy weapons, nor would the said weapons be from the future.

and no matter how strong both Vader and Sidious are, they will get killed by the hundreds of droids and Dark Jedi.
No numbers were ever given, for the temple. Vader and Sidious wouldn't come alone. And in the resurrection comic(which features a good battle between Darth Maul and Darth Vader and it is cannon), Sidious's lightning turns 3 or 4 prophets of the darkside to ash. He has such great control of his lightning that when Moff Kadir and his cadre of loyal storm troopers went to kill Palpatine he used his lightning to kill them all but he directed i to avoid his own red guard who were trying to protect him. So the numbers of "average joe dark jedi and no name sith, wouldn't be enough to stop Vader and Sidious, and their reinforcements which would be considerable due to their importance.

And wasn't the Force Field made by the Force?
It's was never confirmed to be, the name itself, "force field" by itself doesn't mean anything though the ritual could suggest it being created of the force. Though I'm not sure how well this would work, against Vader(or god help it Sidious himself) due to his power. I mean we have no idea how powerful Revan was when he first visited the temple, plus there is nothing to suggest that it could stop Vader from tking the entire temple, remember Revan needed to get inside, Vader needs to destroy it.

I have to agree with that, but someone said that the DS was as big as a planet, and therefore wouldn't be caught by the disruptor field, which is not true, the DS is, to quote Ben, the size of a small moon. Which enables it to be caught by the field and be sucked down.
It's too big to get sucked down, it has it's own gravitational pull, if the disruptor field would do anything, it would probably overload it's systems and cause it to get stuck in Lehon's orbit but I don't see how how. And this is assuming that they don't destroy the planet first. Not to mention that if it did fall the planet is done for. So the star forge wouldn't have it's first (and most effective) line of defense.

Yeah, but the Sith ships have some sort of protection against it, according to Carth, and since they don't get caught in it, we have to assume thats true. So the Empire ships would indeed crash, and suddenly, the DS is alone.My whole point here was that the sith fleet weren't going to let them get near the planet(which was the point I was addressing) which is where the disruptor field comes from, they would be fighting beyond the planet and out of range... They might lose a few ships but once they realize it, there is nothing to stop them from glassing the planet from a safe range outside it's orbit.


@ Darth Hord interesting tidbit from the novel but that conflicts with some sources I have seen and are accepted about the Death Star's shield system as being listed as a heavy planetary level system. But you are correct the nauseating array of weapons are ample to keep away simple capital ships.
I'm curious for the sources. I guess it could be that the death star wasn't quite completed in the novel and the shield may have been the very last edition.

The Dark Side of the Force overcomes the need for schematics!
If (yes another if!) Revan or one of his Dark Jedi were to get in their starfighters personally, they would probably be able to find the weakness through the force, then direct the bulk of their starfighter forces to it.

No offense but this is the stuff that gets frustrating to deal with it. Your entire argument is "Revan is uber" and therefore he will magically become an ace fighter pilot find a small exhaust port on 160 km (if this is the first death star which hasn't been confirmed to be) all the while avoiding thousands of tie fighters, turbo lasers,ion canons,etc. And the same goes for the dark jedi, none of them were noted to be ace pilots and they would be to preoccupied to look for a weakness with their eyes let alone trying to concentrate to use the force. This "what if" is not going to happen.

Trench
06-26-2009, 10:15 AM
I'm not saying that "Revan is uber". I'm saying that a skilled Force sensitive could probably find the weakness. Imagine what Luke could have done if he had been as powerful in that battle as he had been in some later works. Take what happened between Jaina and Caedus, Luke was -over a long distance- able to cloud the mind of a Sith Lord enough that he thought he was fighting Luke instead of his sister. This power has nothing to do with the battle mentioned, but it was used to give you an example of Lukes power. Imagine what Revan could do at his level. For all we know he could have been a master of shatterpoints like Mace Windu.

Darth Hord
06-26-2009, 10:27 AM
I'm not saying that "Revan is uber". I'm saying that a skilled Force sensitive could probably find the weakness.
I apologize if this post and the last sound a bit snippy.

How do you expect them to concentrate? They have way have to deal with all of this from the death star alone(exclude the ground vehicles and such)
Scattered across the Death Star's surface were thousands of weapons emplacements: a total of 10,000 turbolaser batteries, 2,500 laser cannons, 2,500 ion cannons and 768 tractor beam projectors. The station carried a crew of 265,675, plus 52,276 gunners, 607,360 troops, 25,984 stormtroopers, 42,782 ship support staff, and 167,216 pilots and support crew. The station also carried 7,200 starfighters, four strike cruisers, 3,600 assault shuttles, 1,400 AT-ATs, 1,400 AT-STs, 1,860 drop ships, and more. (source is the sw databank


This isn't including what stars destroyers would add to the battle

Imagine what Luke could have done if he had been as powerful in that battle as he had been in some later works. Take what happened between Jaina and Caedus, Luke was -over a long distance- able to cloud the mind of a Sith Lord enough that he thought he was fighting Luke instead of his sister.
Luke was solely focusing on the duel, and the duel alone. He wouldn't have other distractions, even the slightest slip up when your concentration is on the battle could lead to your death but you expect Revan to divert his at the very least some of attention from the incoming star fighters and antifighter turrets to find a weakness on moon size battle station.

Imagine what Revan could do at his level
Luke by LOTF is alot more powerful then Revan, not to mention if Revan even attempts this, his navy would be under the command of lesser beings (and god help them if Grand Admiral Thrawn was in command of the imperials.) But even by LOTF Luke isn't that powerful to do what you suggest in the middle of space battle.

For all we know he could have been a master of shatterpoints like Mace Windu.
We could only speculate at best, until he has shown the ability or has been stated by a credible source to have it, then as far as I'm concerned he doesn't.

Mandalore The Shadow
06-26-2009, 02:48 PM
Star Forge beacuse it is a factory

RedHawke
06-27-2009, 03:39 AM
I'm curious for the sources. I guess it could be that the death star wasn't quite completed in the novel and the shield may have been the very last edition.
The Star Wars A New Hope novel mentioned it being unassailable in a conventional means, during the part of the analysis of the plans Leia had on Yavin, and it was re-iterated in most of the other printed materials available on the Death Star (though some may have been fan made)... my primary sources are the statements made in the novel/movie and the RPG materials which give quite technical answers to what is what, but to be 100% honest the RPG sources are, as I know full well, not infallible themselves (They dropped the ball on the Executor in its stated length), but so far the RPG data on the Death Star are pretty spot on.

Either way the canon movie itself mentions that the Death Star is extremely well defended from a conventional attack, now whilst snub-fighters were not considered a threat due to the massive amounts of carried fighters the station boasted. (Not the Death Star's fault or design flaw that Tarkin was an arrogant @ss and never scrambled his fighters. ;) )

The scale of the Death Star itself would lend to it having/needing to have a Planetary scale shield generator... technically the biggest power consumption would be for the DS to enter hyperspace, a heavy planetary shield system and even the Super-Laser combined would pale in comparison to that one system/feat.

Q
06-27-2009, 05:04 AM
Damnit!

I'm offline for a few days and I miss another epic pissing contest of gargantuan geekosity. :(



Oh, and Death Star by a parsec. :D

Carsew
06-27-2009, 06:04 AM
[I] Scattered across the Death Star's surface were thousands of weapons emplacements: a total of 10,000 turbolaser batteries, 2,500 laser cannons, 2,500 ion cannons and 768 tractor beam projectors. The station carried a crew of 265,675, plus 52,276 gunners, 607,360 troops, 25,984 stormtroopers, 42,782 ship support staff, and 167,216 pilots and support crew. The station also carried 7,200 starfighters, four strike cruisers, 3,600 assault shuttles, 1,400 AT-ATs, 1,400 AT-STs, 1,860 drop ships, and more.

The turrets and cannons on the surface are spread out also, and since the DS is so large, they would not have to worry about 10,000 turbolasers, more like 500 at the most, as long as they stay in the same place. And the troops and AT-STs, AT-ATs, and dropships would not do anything to help, since they are stashed inside.

Darth Hord
06-27-2009, 09:12 AM
The turrets and cannons on the surface are spread out also, and since the DS is so large, they would not have to worry about 10,000 turbolasers, more like 500 at the most, as long as they stay in the same place. And the troops and AT-STs, AT-ATs, and dropships would not do anything to help, since they are stashed inside.

Um, I know that already? It's says that they were "Scattered across the Death Star's surface"

I was posting it's statistics originally for everyone to see and my point still stands. And the second time I posted (which was solely about space combat) this I told him to "exclude the ground vehicles and such"

Fredi
06-27-2009, 03:23 PM
Star Forge, I will make a super armada and take down the Death Star with it.:D

Mandalore The Shadow
06-27-2009, 07:48 PM
Imagne both their powers combined that would be crazy

Mindtwistah
06-27-2009, 08:36 PM
The Death Star would win in a face-to-face (Or rather, space station-to-space station) battle, but the Star Forge would win in a war to conquest the galaxy.

Death Star can blow things up, yes. It could probably blow the Star Forge up in a battle. But the Star Forge creates unlimited amount of ships, the Empire would be outnumbered within a few months/a year.

Mandalore The Shadow
06-27-2009, 09:53 PM
The Death Star would win in a face-to-face (Or rather, space station-to-space station) battle, but the Star Forge would win in a war to conquest the galaxy.

Death Star can blow things up, yes. It could probably blow the Star Forge up in a battle. But the Star Forge creates unlimited amount of ships, the Empire would be outnumbered within a few months/a year.

Nicely stated which is why i would choose the star forge

Darth Hord
06-28-2009, 09:56 AM
This will probably be my last post in this thread. :) And this post really has nothing to do with the battle itself but it is about the star forge and how I believe the time at which it can produce ships is being greatly exaggerated. And I will explain below.


But the Star Forge creates unlimited amount of ships, the Empire would be outnumbered within a few months/a year.
I highly doubt that and I will explain why below, using the facts that we know.

Fact 1: The Mandalorian Wars, ended in 3,960 BBY and Revan and Malak took one-third of the republic fleet with them. This means that the republic only has two-thirds of its fleet/navy remaining and a number of those ships would naturally be damaged and may have not have been worth repairing.

Fact 2: A year later (3,959 BBY) Revan and Malak invade the republic with a massive armada. The first known/major battle was a surprise attack against the repulic military base at(3,958 BBY, technically it's the 2nd year)) Foerost where they captured a substantial portion of the ships docked and those ships joined their sith navy. This means now that the republic has under two-thirds of its fleet/navy to combat the sith.

Fact 3:Sometime in 3,957, Malak betrays Revan, and becomes DLOTS.

Fact 4: Three years into the war (3,956 BBY) the events of kotor happen and the sith are defeated, and the star forge is blown up. Now during this time this sith are preparing to form their invasion fleet (s) to attack the inner rim/core worlds. (the argument from a sith and republic trooper on Manaa,also says much)

So in the 3-4 year period in which the star forge was under Revan/Malak's control they didn't have enough ships to make a successful bid (and have enough ships to protect their current territories.) on the inner/core planets until the very end. Yet you expect them out number the Galactic Empire within a year? This is highly unlikely considering that they have more ship yards/ship building facilities then just Republic (less than two-thirds of its original it had at the end of another war, so its forces/resources were pretty drained) and have a bigger (not to mention 4000 yeas more advance) fleet to begin with. And the manpower the sith would need for a navy to take on the GE would thus have to been staggering and may even slow up their war effort finding enough men to properly man the ships. (not to mention their skills of those recruits would be in question)


So in-conclusion I hoped I put some perspective of how fast the star forge produces ships. And I how feel people use the title of the infinite fleet erroneously, and how fast they think it can produce ships.

Darth_Yuthura
06-28-2009, 10:42 AM
Revan did not use the Star Forge to its fullest capacity. He knew of its corrupting nature and only used it to replace his fleet as needed. Given that Revan was regarded as a genius of battle, it would be likely to assume that he didn't create an overwhelming fleet that could do more than defeat the Republic. When Malak took over, the capacity of the Star Forge tripled later in the war. And don't forget that Malak was all muscle and no brains when it came to war.

He likely used brute strength and overwhelming numbers like Napolian, making every victory more costly to the Sith than the Republic in terms of losses. I would assume that since Malak took over, he didn't know how to harness the Star Forge's vast capacity at first; but that he had always been able to just throw ships and droids away recklessly. Using tactics such as those compared to Revan's would go a long way to explain that the Republic was outnumbered, but that they used superior tactics to achieve a higher exchange ratio.

LordSerion
06-28-2009, 12:47 PM
With Malak in control, I think Death Star would win. Malak has absolutely no tactical side, he belives in sheer power - however, capital ships wouldn't get through the DS's shield.

Darth Hord
06-28-2009, 01:03 PM
Revan did not use the Star Forge to its fullest capacity. He knew of its corrupting nature and only used it to replace his fleet as needed. Given that Revan was regarded as a genius of battle, it would be likely to assume that he didn't create an overwhelming fleet that could do more than defeat the Republic. When Malak took over, the capacity of the Star Forge tripled later in the war. And don't forget that Malak was all muscle and no brains when it came to war.


Revan limited his personal contact with it, there is nothing to suggest that it didn't keep turning out warships. As we see the "full capacity" of the star forge involves it using feed on the darskide of captives, there is nothing to suggest that it all over a sudden stopped building ship and given's Revan genius it would have been smart to build more ships. The whole war effort was partially driven to protect the galaxy from the ancient sith empire (who based on the actions of Revan and Traya's comments, made the invasion seem pretty close, or at least in their minds). Like I said in my post the republic was down at least one third of its entire navy. The more ships Revan had at his disposal the easier it would be to spread the lines of the (already war tired) republic to a thread.

Also I pointed out the war 3 years long. Revan had 1/3 of the republic ships +what the SF created in the year prior to the war. Even Revan slowed it down somewhat (which I already shown why it was illogical) Malak tripling its rate of construction would make up for that. Plus they captured a fleet at Foerost, and I'd imagine they took over some of he shipyards in the outer/mid rim.

He likely used brute strength and overwhelming numbers like Napolian, making every victory more costly to the Sith than the Republic in terms of losses. I would assume that since Malak took over, he didn't know how to harness the Star Forge's vast capacity at first; but that he had always been able to just throw ships and droids away recklessly. Using tactics such as those compared to Revan's would go a long way to explain that the Republic was outnumbered, but that they used superior tactics to achieve a higher exchange ratio.
What is your source that Malak relied solely on "brute strength?" There is nothing to suggest that he had "no brains" as you put it. Yes, he was reckless and put himself into danger on the front lines (not an entirely bad trait for moral in battle to see your general fighting next to you) at times in the mandalorian wars. Sure he ordered planets to be glassed which spread the reputation of his ruthlessness and for people to fear him.(Grand Moff Tarkin would have loved him) But. "no brains," his betrayal of Revan shows he wasn't exactly a moron. Then you have to consider the fact that Revan or Malak can't be everywhere in the war. They had the same exact generals/admirals commanding the troops/ships on the frontlines.

Mindtwistah
06-28-2009, 05:07 PM
Darth Hord: Interesting facts, but I do agree with Darth_Yuthura; Revan didn't use it to its full capacity.

Also, it had to build ships pretty fast, otherwise it wouldn't need to drain power from a sun, and the Rakata wouldn't be calling it "Pride of the Infinite Empire".

Also, you mention the 4000 years technology gap. The Star Forge was designed to build Rakatan ships. How can you know that the Rakatan ships weren't much stronger than the regular ships (Hammerhead and so on) at the time?
And feeding it with blueprints for Star Destroyers shouldn't be to hard.

Darth Hord
06-28-2009, 05:26 PM
Darth Hord: Interesting facts, but I do agree with Darth_Yuthura; Revan didn't use it to its full capacity.
There is nothing to suggest that full capacity, Revan avoided contact so he didn't end up like the rakatan, there is nothing to suggest that he stopped it from building ships.

Also, it had to build ships pretty fast, otherwise it wouldn't need to drain power from a sun,
...It has to be somewhat comparable in size to the death star. It's needs constant energy to fuel the machines that build the ships,defense placements,power,stablizers,etc.

and the Rakata wouldn't be calling it "Pride of the Infinite Empire".
This has nothing to do with the rate at which it creates ships.

lso, you mention the 4000 years technology gap. The Star Forge was designed to build Rakatan ships.
According to wookieepedia the infinite empire dissolved in 25,200 BBY. In LOTF, Caedus calls Confederation ships from the clone wars era to be outdated and "ancient hardware" (or something along those lines)

How can you know that the Rakatan ships weren't much stronger than the regular ships (Hammerhead and so on) at the time?
We have never seen any Rakatan ships, the sith interdictor (leviathan) and the Centurion-class battlecruiser (Ravager) were both made in the republic originally not the star forge.

And feeding it with blueprints for Star Destroyers shouldn't be to hard.
One on one the imperial class star destroyers are better armed for combat then either capital ship in Revan's empire.(and the centurion's haven't been seen to be mass produced either) It will be extremely hard to take one down, plus t the systems/controls inside the star destroyers may very well be too advanced and unfamiliar for Revan's sith. Luke Skywalker has trouble flying starfighters (let alone massive warships,that needs all crew members to be competent) that he isn't familiar with (in fact he crashes one in the thrawn trilogy because of this), how do you expect them to understand the controls of 4000 yr. advanced. tech. the learning curve for an entire empire would be huge.(even if they tried to add the current tech to their current ship classes,there is no gaurantee those ship dimensions would allow it to be installed and they still have a huge learning curve against them) And in that time their current (outdated) ships would be suffering huge casualties.

mattig89ch
07-02-2009, 12:07 PM
ah, but you aren't counting on droids to fly the ships (at first). It was my understanding that the star forge starts poping out droids with the ships, thats how I figured they manned the ships that fast too.

Gob
07-02-2009, 01:33 PM
Assuming this is the first Death Star, it would win 7/10 times.

1. "Revan didn't use the SF to the full capacity" - So? If he didn't use it to the full capacity, we don't know what the full capacity is. Therefore, we can't assume how strong it would be, so you can't use it in determining the outcome of this fight.
2. "They could find out where the weak spot is" - How? The SF's best bet would to send out a massive amount of ships that continually fired across the entire DS until they hit something. And I doubt it would be able to send out enough ships in time to cover the entire DS.

The Death Star only has to fire one shot. That shot could tear through any ships that could get in the way, hit the Star Forge right at its core, and end the battle. Other than the ships that it produces, the SF has very few actual defenses, none of which could stop the superlaser.

Darth_Yuthura
07-02-2009, 01:35 PM
There is nothing to suggest that full capacity, Revan avoided contact so he didn't end up like the rakatan, there is nothing to suggest that he stopped it from building ships.

It is explicitly stated that Revan only used the Star Forge to replenish his fleet as needed. He was careful not to depend too heavily upon it, which explained why he sought to capture more 'conventional' Republic shipyards and production facilities during the war. Either that goes to show that the Star Forge wasn't indeed that powerful, or Revan sought to depend upon it as little as possible.

And clearly if manpower is going to be an issue with the Star Forge, then the Death Star must also be judged in this regard. The Star Forge is a factory that builds weapons and produces warships where the Death Star is a weapon that demands resources, manpower, fuel, and other upkeep. How would you be able to keep the Death Star operating if you can't fuel it, pay for maintenance, or to keep it under guard?

There was once a description of the M1 being the most lethal and unstoppable tank in the world, but that because it used a gas turbine engine, it was vulnerable. You didn't target the tank, but the trucks that carried the fuel and you've beaten it. That is why I would say the Star Forge wins this debate.

Trench
07-02-2009, 01:49 PM
If he didn't use it to the full capacity, we don't know what the full capacity is. Therefore, we can't assume how strong it would be, so you can't use it in determining the outcome of this fight.
And yet you insist that the Death Star would win? You have made two conflicting statements.

The Death Star only has to fire one shot. That shot could tear through any ships that could get in the way, hit the Star Forge right at its core, and end the battle.

Did you watch "Return of the Jedi"? The second Death Star used its superlaser during the battle with the Rebellion, and each shot only destroyed one ship. If the superlaser has the power that you say it has, it would have just fired a single blast towards the heart of the fleet, thus destroying the Rebellion's command ships, and ending the battle.

This poll is invalid. We don't know enough about the Star Forge to make a proper argument. For all we know the Star Forge could have put up a giant shield of Dark Side energy to block the superlaser, and then blasted the Death Star with supersized Force Lightning.

Gob
07-02-2009, 02:10 PM
And yet you insist that the Death Star would win? You have made two conflicting statements.

No. I'm saying that it would win in a battle from what we've seen of it, as in, the power it has demonstrated.

Did you watch "Return of the Jedi"? The second Death Star used its superlaser during the battle with the Rebellion, and each shot only destroyed one ship. If the superlaser has the power that you say it has, it would have just fired a single blast towards the heart of the fleet, thus destroying the Rebellion's command ships, and ending the battle.

Those weren't full-powered blasts. It was using shots on a much smaller scale, because a full-powered shot would take much longer to recharge. In Episode 4, it clearly shows the power to destroy a planet. If it can do that, it can destroy the center of a battle station, and anything in the way would simply be torn through.

This poll is invalid. We don't know enough about the Star Forge to make a proper argument. For all we know the Star Forge could have put up a giant shield of Dark Side energy to block the superlaser, and then blasted the Death Star with supersized Force Lightning.

This, I agree with. Again, we don't know its full potential, so we can't say whether or not it can send giant flying Force monkeys out, or anything for that matter.

Druganator
07-02-2009, 08:21 PM
ok, the death star vs the star forge, star forge makes ships, ships shoot death star and do nothing, death star shoots star forge and it blows up.

Totenkopf
07-03-2009, 09:24 AM
For all we know the Star Forge could have put up a giant shield of Dark Side energy to block the superlaser, and then blasted the Death Star with supersized Force Lightning.

And yet.....no sign of anything like that remotely happening in the game. As a matter of fact, once Bastila's Battle Meditation was removed as a factor in favor of the sith side(LS)...the Star Forge became an easy target. Her Battle Med also was what turned tide againt Rep fleet w/DSR. So....w/no BatMed, it seems the SF was very vulnerable. In the case of the DS, even its one weakness required the Force to be overcome (if only as a plot device). It seems that in a straight up fight, the DS (a mobile battle station) would defeat the SF (a stationary munitions factory).

As an aside, it's funny that the SSDs in ROTJ didn't have a redundant set or set of bridge controls in the event the main bridge was taken out due to shield failures, as in the film. They WERE huge ships.

Mindtwistah
07-03-2009, 01:45 PM
And yet.....no sign of anything like that remotely happening in the game. As a matter of fact, once Bastila's Battle Meditation was removed as a factor in favor of the sith side(LS)...the Star Forge became an easy target. Her Battle Med also was what turned tide againt Rep fleet w/DSR. So....w/no BatMed, it seems the SF was very vulnerable. In the case of the DS, even its one weakness required the Force to be overcome (if only as a plot device). It seems that in a straight up fight, the DS (a mobile battle station) would defeat the SF (a stationary munitions factory).

As an aside, it's funny that the SSDs in ROTJ didn't have a redundant set or set of bridge controls in the event the main bridge was taken out due to shield failures, as in the film. They WERE huge ships.

We don't know what the Star Forge can do.
Revan only used it as an armory and not even at full capacity to prevent himself from being corrupted like the Rakata.
Malak wasn't the most brilliant one. ^^
And besides, the secrets of the star forge could've been buried along with the Rakata. What we saw as a ship factory could very well only be the shell to what was an extremly powerful dark side entitity.
Something that could corrupt a whole species probably had a great connection to the force, and who knows how that could have been used.

AND, the Star Forge was protected by an EM field/energy shield that POSSIBLY could be powerful enough to disable the Death Star and crash it into Lehon if it came close :p However, we can't know for sure as the largest thing we've seen it disable is Hammerhead class cruisers.