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GreyJediMaster
06-15-2009, 09:05 AM
kinda like a Pub Footy team match. except totally different. All against All, who'd come out on top?

Team 1:Traya,Sion,Nihilus

Team 2:Dark Side Exile,Darth Revan,Malak

Team 3:Palpatine,Vader,Dooku

Team 4:Bane,Maul,The Sith Captain from the old republic trailer (dont know his name, sorry)

Team 5:Naga Sadow,Ludo Kressh,Marka Ragnos

The Betrayer
06-15-2009, 10:36 AM
Team 5 for me.

Ping
06-15-2009, 04:56 PM
Probably Team 4. If Team 5 used lightsabers instead of swords, or Tulak Horde was on that team, than 4 and 5 might be somewhat evenly matched.

Trench
06-15-2009, 05:51 PM
1 or 5. Most likely five due to their true Sith blood.

Fredi
06-15-2009, 09:57 PM
4 :D

Lord of Hunger
06-15-2009, 10:00 PM
From least to most likely to win:

3 - Vader ain't all that great, Dooku was naive about the Sith and loyalty (the two don't go together well), and Palpatine can't really do anything Revan, Sion, and Kreia can't do twice as well.
4 - Bane's knowledge is extensive, but that's about it. Maul is an expert at Juyo, but that's about it. And the Unidentified Sith Captain is pretty awesome, but all we've seen him kill is a Jedi Master and that's not as hard as people make it out to be.
2 - The Exile's a Passive Force Vampire so she's a great team player, and Revan is a brilliant strategist, persuader, and Force User in general. However, Star Forge-less Malak drags them down.
5 - True Sith? I'd say these guys are a pretty tough challenge for just about anyone to handle. No weaknesses, but....
1 - Immortal Zombie, Sith Lord who can control everyone's perceptions and wield three lightsabers with telekinesis, and an aggressive Force Vampire that is Star Wars' most powerful known entity...how can they not win? The Triumvirate, had it stuck together, would have destroyed the Galaxy.

Ping
06-16-2009, 01:39 PM
1 - Immortal Zombie, Sith Lord who can control everyone's perceptions and wield three lightsabers with telekinesis, and an aggressive Force Vampire that is Star Wars' most powerful known entity...how can they not win? The Triumvirate, had it stuck together, would have destroyed the Galaxy.
Where, may I ask, does it say Nihilius was the most powerful Force user? Sion would be tough, and so would Kreia, but Sion isn't immortal (he died in TSL, so he can't live forever) and Kreia failed to kill the Exile with three sabers.

Demongo
06-16-2009, 01:52 PM
Team 2 or 5, but Malak drags Team 2 down, so Team 5:D

Ping
06-16-2009, 06:36 PM
Sion only died because the Exile broke his will. She was beautiful to him, so he was unable to ignore her for long. She probably could have broken his will without even speaking. She was in his head.

But he still died. That still doesn't mean he's immortal.

Lord of Hunger
06-17-2009, 01:57 AM
@ Ma Ping:

Sion - Essentially he died only because he wanted to. This is about as close to immortality as you can get.
Nihilus - We have Kreia, Tobin, and Visas to go on for first hand accounts. They all described a level of power unparalleled.
Kreia - Essentially she was defeated by an individual fueled not only by the power of others but by her own teachings. Kreia essentially was defeated by herself.

Together, I don't think anyone could stand up to this trio. The Exile had to pick them off one by one, and she was practically built to find weaknesses in these Lords no one else could.

Demongo
06-17-2009, 05:32 AM
It seems no one voted for Team 3 so far, but that's not too suprising. As Lord of Hunger said:

3 - Vader ain't all that great, Dooku was naive about the Sith and loyalty (the two don't go together well), and Palpatine can't really do anything Revan, Sion, and Kreia can't do twice as well.


What did Vader really do? Allright he killed Count Dooku. He killed lots of defensless kids with an army behind him, then he was defeated by a Jedi Master. Later he killed a 57 years old jedi master............well not really killed him. Ben allowed himself to be struck down. And probably that's all.

Ping
06-17-2009, 11:00 AM
@ Ma Ping:

Sion - Essentially he died only because he wanted to. This is about as close to immortality as you can get.
Nihilus - We have Kreia, Tobin, and Visas to go on for first hand accounts. They all described a level of power unparalleled.
Kreia - Essentially she was defeated by an individual fueled not only by the power of others but by her own teachings. Kreia essentially was defeated by herself.

Together, I don't think anyone could stand up to this trio. The Exile had to pick them off one by one, and she was practically built to find weaknesses in these Lords no one else could.

Just because in-universe characters describe him as powerful, doesn't mean he is. Two reasons why:

1) If he was so powerful, than how come three people were able to kill him? Vader was able to take on eight Jedi and still come out alive. Nihilius was facing two Jedi and a battle-hardend non-Jedi.

2) Leland Chee hasn't stated as such, therefore he's not the most powerful.

Mandalore The Shadow
06-29-2009, 09:06 AM
Team 2 or 5 although I dont like Malak and team 5 dosn't have lightsabers

Insignia_Enithma
06-29-2009, 09:20 AM
Team five win hands down. Them having Sword actually doesn't matter, as their weapons where still very powerful. Especially Marka Ragnos Scepter.

Mindtwistah
06-29-2009, 09:51 AM
Just because in-universe characters describe him as powerful, doesn't mean he is. Two reasons why:

1) If he was so powerful, than how come three people were able to kill him? Vader was able to take on eight Jedi and still come out alive. Nihilius was facing two Jedi and a battle-hardend non-Jedi.

2) Leland Chee hasn't stated as such, therefore he's not the most powerful.

They were able to defeat him because the exile was a force vampire, a "wound in the force", just like himself. When he tried sucking the life out of the exile, his most powerful and devastating attack, it backfired.

So if the exile had been a normal human (That is, not a wound in the force) she would've died on that bridge in a matter of seconds.


I believe that either team 5 or team 1 would win.
The ancient sith team could whoop their asses, but Nihilus could suck the life out of them. Sion is immortal, no matter how many times you kill him, he will rise again. This could be used as a great meat shield while Nihilus is sucking the life out of everyone. Kreia.. well, she could make 3 lightsabers floating and chasing after everyone, creating panic :D

MacTavish
06-29-2009, 09:52 AM
1 - Immortal Zombie, Sith Lord who can control everyone's perceptions and wield three lightsabers with telekinesis, and an aggressive Force Vampire that is Star Wars' most powerful known entity...how can they not win? The Triumvirate, had it stuck together, would have destroyed the Galaxy.

Couldn't agree more.

Ping
06-29-2009, 12:46 PM
They were able to defeat him because the exile was a force vampire, a "wound in the force", just like himself. When he tried sucking the life out of the exile, his most powerful and devastating attack, it backfired.

So if the exile had been a normal human (That is, not a wound in the force) she would've died on that bridge in a matter of seconds.


I believe that either team 5 or team 1 would win.
The ancient sith team could whoop their asses, but Nihilus could suck the life out of them. Sion is immortal, no matter how many times you kill him, he will rise again. This could be used as a great meat shield while Nihilus is sucking the life out of everyone. Kreia.. well, she could make 3 lightsabers floating and chasing after everyone, creating panic :D

Nihilius just doesn't suck the life out of people. He has to kill them first. Besides, even if it did work that way, I'm sure he would've taken care of Mandalore and Visas first. If Nihilius just sucked out life, I'm sure TSL would've ended then and there on the Ravager. Nihilius also wasn't a wound in the Force. He was more of a Dark Side thing, judging by Kreia's comments. Really, Sion's the only one who'd have a good chance of winning, and even then, he'd probably eventually get defeated.

Nick Vader
06-29-2009, 01:16 PM
I think Team 2, because the Exile beat Treya at the end of KOTOR2 and he also has great war experience( Mandalorian Wars ), because Revan is perhaps the greatest general and commander the galaxy has ever known, and finally, because there also is Malak, who is Revan's apprentice and has been taught by Revan himself. I think they should be able to defeat any other team... And as for Team 1, at first, we all know that Sion, except of being immortal, he knows about betrayal and would be easy to convince him to either turn on his master for betrayal, or try to take over , instead. Treya, (who got beaten in the end) wasn't able to "panic" the Exile at all! And also, the lightsabers can easiy be destroyed or kept-busy with a simple force choke(or kill), leaving Treya to her lightsaber skill... AS for Nihilius, he CAN suck the life out of leaving beings, IF they can't use the force to fight back ! (Like planets). And except of that (even if he could) , it takes time to prepare such a devasting force against someone, leaving Nihilius open to an attack (3 "force kill" are enough). Thought of that ? Anyway, I'm done...

Trench
06-29-2009, 01:20 PM
Nihilius just doesn't suck the life out of people. He has to kill them first.

Then how do explain the fact that he drained the life from every living thing on Katarr except Visas? I doubt he went down there and sabered all that stuff first.

Gob
06-29-2009, 01:38 PM
Team 1 wins by default, because of the Nihilus SuperForceSucka 9000 ability... If he doesn't have that, and Sion only gets one life, then Team 5 would probably win.

Team 1= Unbeatable due to the abilities stated above, but if they don't have those abilities, they'd likely get wasted early on.
Team 2= Two strong fighters with another pretty strong fighter... But they'd be outclassed by Team 5 and Bane, and would have a fairly hard time with 3.
Team 3= Vader's pretty durable, so he could probably deal some damage before going. Dooku would hold his own for a little bit, too. Sidious could also deal a lot of damage, and is their best bet against some of the other titans.
Team 4= Two average Sith, and an extremely strong Sith. Maul and the Captain would get beaten down, but Bane would last much longer.
Team 5= A superpowered Sith with two other very strong Sith... They could take Bane and Sidious without much trouble, as well as any other remnants. Unless the others team up against them, Team 5 would win about 3/4.

Mindtwistah
06-29-2009, 08:41 PM
Nihilius just doesn't suck the life out of people. He has to kill them first. Besides, even if it did work that way, I'm sure he would've taken care of Mandalore and Visas first. If Nihilius just sucked out life, I'm sure TSL would've ended then and there on the Ravager. Nihilius also wasn't a wound in the Force. He was more of a Dark Side thing, judging by Kreia's comments. Really, Sion's the only one who'd have a good chance of winning, and even then, he'd probably eventually get defeated.

If I am correct, it backfired when he tried sucking out the life of the Exile (He probably didn't know she was a wound in the force) and so he got weakened, and the trio could finish him off.

Also, he didn't need to kill someone to suck the life out of them.

MacTavish
06-29-2009, 09:36 PM
Also, he didn't need to kill someone to suck the life out of them.

And he did it to an entire planet's population.

Ping
07-04-2009, 01:06 PM
Then how do explain the fact that he drained the life from every living thing on Katarr except Visas? I doubt he went down there and sabered all that stuff first.

Do the words "orbital bombardment" mean anything to you? That's what my impressions are after reading "Unseen, Unheard"

Gurges-Ahter
07-14-2009, 04:31 PM
Team 1 had their chance and blew it. The Exile defeated all 3 of them.

I had a tough time choosing between 2 and 5... I ended up going with team 5 mostly because of the lore. Team 2 is dragged down a bit by Malak, but the counter to that is he was great as Revan's apprentice... he only sucked as the head Sith.

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
07-16-2009, 11:46 PM
Team 1: Traya, Sion and Nihilius would win. the weakest in thats group is traya (battle wise), so i think she would get skewered first. sion could have ten lightsabers stuck into him and hed just shrug it off. nihilus would be ecstatic. like a kid in a candy store; surrounded by a boatload of some the most force powerful beings in the history of their universe...

3,
2,
1,
*NOM*

Gurges-Ahter
07-17-2009, 11:35 AM
Team 1: Traya, Sion and Nihilius would win. the weakest in thats group is traya (battle wise), so i think she would get skewered first. sion could have ten lightsabers stuck into him and hed just shrug it off. nihilus would be ecstatic. like a kid in a candy store; surrounded by a boatload of some the most force powerful beings in the history of their universe...


While I don't disagree with your logic, keep in mind that the Exile defeated all 3 of that triumvirate on her own...

Nihilus has to be the wild card, considering his unique talent, but he couldn't beat the Exile so I don't know how the TSL Sith trio could beat the Exile, Revan, and Malak.

Trench
07-17-2009, 12:47 PM
While I don't disagree with your logic, keep in mind that the Exile defeated all 3 of that triumvirate on her own...

Nihilus has to be the wild card, considering his unique talent, but he couldn't beat the Exile so I don't know how the TSL Sith trio could beat the Exile, Revan, and Malak.

Yeah, but the Exile was the weakness of all of them: She was a Light side Force vampire (Nihilus), she was a beautiful presence in Sion's mind, and she was the favorite of Traya.
Nihilus' power lay in his ability to drain the life from other beings. He couldn't do that to another like him.
She was beautiful to Sion, so she was able to erode his will, and convince him that his life wasn't worth it.
Traya favored her, and taught her enough to defeat a Triumvirate of Sith and their armies.

Team 1 wins.:D

Gurges-Ahter
07-17-2009, 02:05 PM
Yeah, but the Exile was the weakness of all of them: She was a Light side Force vampire (Nihilus), she was a beautiful presence in Sion's mind, and she was the favorite of Traya.
Nihilus' power lay in his ability to drain the life from other beings. He couldn't do that to another like him.
She was beautiful to Sion, so she was able to erode his will, and convince him that his life wasn't worth it.
Traya favored her, and taught her enough to defeat a Triumvirate of Sith and their armies.

Team 1 wins.:D

I still disagree. As you stated, The Exile "was the weakness of all of them", and the Exile is part of team 2. Team 1 cannot defeat Team 2 because of the Exile alone, and let's not forget that Revan and Malak are pretty powerful to boot.

Astor
07-17-2009, 02:06 PM
Team 1 wins because it has the most ridiculously overpowered character in it.

urluckyday
07-18-2009, 12:08 AM
Team 3...Vader = most powerful

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
07-18-2009, 05:10 AM
While I don't disagree with your logic, keep in mind that the Exile defeated all 3 of that triumvirate on her own...

Nihilus has to be the wild card, considering his unique talent, but he couldn't beat the Exile so I don't know how the TSL Sith trio could beat the Exile, Revan, and Malak.

The Exile beat sion due to specific circumstances that would not be present in a "battle royal" like this. as long as nihilus doesnt drain exile, everyone else is wasted. then, he and sion could easily pick her off. (she would be the only one of the opponents left).

if nihilus tries to drain everyone at the same time, im not sure what would happen. remember, when nihilus tried to drain the exile, he was greatly weakened, not destroyed. would the combined power of all the other dark lords "negate" the damage done by him trying to drain the exile? im not sure. but i am inclined to think that theyd still get wasted.

Ping
07-19-2009, 03:09 PM
Team 3...Vader = most powerful

I'll have to agree with you on that. While I don't believe Vader is the most powerful guy ever, he did duel eight Jedi simultaneously and was able to walk out of that alive (wounded, but alive).

Team 1 wins because it has the most ridiculously overpowered character in it.
LOL, I'll agree with you that almost every KOTOR character is either overpowered or overrated, or both.

kingofsquid
07-19-2009, 06:37 PM
Let us not forget that Bane has impenetratable armor, and the ability to go into a massive rage and kill everything around him, and the thought bomb!

Trench
07-19-2009, 07:18 PM
Let us not forget that Bane has impenetratable armor, and the ability to go into a massive rage and kill everything around him, and the thought bomb!

Bane doesn't control the thought bomb. He tricked Kaan into using it, but wouldn't dare use it himself. And if Traya or Nihilus used Force Lightning on his Orbalisk armor he would be poisoned to death.

kingofsquid
07-19-2009, 07:56 PM
Well, if he noticed that he had no chance of surviving, he would use it to at least take the others with him.

Drunkside
07-20-2009, 06:21 AM
All would kill each other til only one guy remained. Then i would use a kitchen knife and stab him/her in the back.

Ping
07-20-2009, 09:57 AM
Bane doesn't control the thought bomb. He tricked Kaan into using it, but wouldn't dare use it himself. And if Traya or Nihilus used Force Lightning on his Orbalisk armor he would be poisoned to death.

Well, I don't know about the armor, but I believe Bane knew every lightsaber form, so he could easily pwn Traya, seeing how the Exile wiped the floor with her. Nihilius would be more difficult, but I think Bane could win that.

Gob
07-20-2009, 10:15 AM
Team 1 wins.:D

ONLY if they have their special abilities. If not, they get super-pwned.

Team 3...Vader = most powerful

No. After he got his suit, he lost a huge amount of his potential; by the time of the original trilogy, he was only 80% as powerful as Sidious.

All would kill each other til only one guy remained. Then i would use a kitchen knife and stab him/her in the back.

Yes.

(Various comments about Bane)

Bane's not all-powerful. There are several people who could likely beat him, as in, all of team 5, Sidious, and maybe Revan.

kingofsquid
07-20-2009, 10:58 AM
Only the ancient Sith and Revan. Sidious was a wuss compared to Bane, or even Malak for socks' sake! And Malak's a wuss!

Trench
07-20-2009, 11:54 AM
Nihilus could drain Darth Bane of his life and his power before he got anywhere near the action.
Darth Nihilus: 10.
Darth Bane: n00b pwn3d:D

Gob
07-20-2009, 12:22 PM
Only the ancient Sith and Revan. Sidious was a wuss compared to Bane, or even Malak for socks' sake! And Malak's a wuss!

Only the ancient Sith and Revan. Sidious was a wuss compared to Bane, or even Malak for socks' sake! And Malak's a wuss!

Malak? Are you cereal? Malak's very average. He's done nothing to even put him close to Sidious.

Also, it depends what Sidious we're talking. DE Sidious is definitely stronger than any other Sith, considering that RotS Sidious has been described as the strongest Sith of all time. RotS Sidious managed to make Yoda back down, and Yoda was stronger than any Jedi before him. Bane's good. I agree with that. He's not the absolute strongest, though. He's about on the level of Exar Kun and Revan, who are just below the ancient Siff.

Either way, Team 5 wins except for Team 1's uber powers.

Ping
07-20-2009, 02:22 PM
Nihilus could drain Darth Bane of his life and his power before he got anywhere near the action.
Darth Nihilus: 10.
Darth Bane: n00b pwn3d:D

How many times do I have to say it? If Nihilius could suck the life out of people at any moment, then why didn't he do it to Visas and Mandalore, then the Exile? I've heard people say it backfired on the Exile, but that bears the question why he didn't then go on to Visas and Mandalore.

Trench
07-20-2009, 02:43 PM
How many times do I have to say it? If Nihilius could suck the life out of people at any moment, then why didn't he do it to Visas and Mandalore, then the Exile? I've heard people say it backfired on the Exile, but that bears the question why he didn't then go on to Visas and Mandalore.

The strain of trying to consume the Exile weakened him. And he couldn't do it on Visas, she was linked to him.

Ping
07-20-2009, 03:01 PM
The strain of trying to consume the Exile weakened him. And he couldn't do it on Visas, she was linked to him.

Still, he'd be able to suck some life out of Mandalore, even weakened. And Nihilius wasn't a Force wound, Judging by Kreia's comments, he seemed to be more of a Sith spawn.

Trench
07-20-2009, 03:40 PM
Still, he'd be able to suck some life out of Mandalore, even weakened. And Nihilius wasn't a Force wound, Judging by Kreia's comments, he seemed to be more of a Sith spawn.

It seems someone who knows more of the subject will need to persuade you...

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
07-20-2009, 09:38 PM
How many times do I have to say it? If Nihilius could suck the life out of people at any moment, then why didn't he do it to Visas and Mandalore, then the Exile? I've heard people say it backfired on the Exile, but that bears the question why he didn't then go on to Visas and Mandalore.

i was always under the impression canderous was a breadcrumb for nihilus. really, after sucking energy out of an entire planet with the majority of the jedi order on it, one non force sensitive human seems to be not worth the effort.

if i remember correctly, nihilus goes drain-crazy when you get him below half of his health. he uses death field with every round, zapping all three party members. (which is stupid, as it does hardly any damage, while the exile's lightsaber(s) deal far more damage to him.) but i dont think that would affect this much, as its all just game mechanics.

Ping
07-21-2009, 01:09 PM
i was always under the impression canderous was a breadcrumb for nihilus. really, after sucking energy out of an entire planet with the majority of the jedi order on it, one non force sensitive human seems to be not worth the effort.

if i remember correctly, nihilus goes drain-crazy when you get him below half of his health. he uses death field with every round, zapping all three party members. (which is stupid, as it does hardly any damage, while the exile's lightsaber(s) deal far more damage to him.) but i dont think that would affect this much, as its all just game mechanics.

Ah, I remember that. I haven't played TSL in a while, so I was just going off of what I remembered.

purifier
07-31-2009, 01:25 PM
Team 5 gets my vote.


The ancient Sith Lords had long forgotten knowledge of the greatest destruction, the best of them could even destroy planets with their minds; with a little help from crystals.

R2-X2
07-31-2009, 04:40 PM
I don't know which I'd vote for, the teams 1 and 5 are very strong, team 2 is nothing, I like team 3 the most, but I think that 5 is the strongest, but I'm not sure.

Gob
07-31-2009, 05:21 PM
I don't know which I'd vote for, the teams 1 and 5 are very strong, team 2 is nothing, I like team 3 the most, but I think that 5 is the strongest, but I'm not sure.

They're the strongest overall, but Team 1 has overpowered abilities, despite not being all that powerful (with the exception of Nihilus.)

R2-X2
07-31-2009, 06:38 PM
They're the strongest overall, but Team 1 has overpowered abilities, despite not being all that powerful (with the exception of Nihilus.)

That's why I hate team 1, they're just totally overpowered sith with nearly no background story. (Kreia is a little exception, but copared to guys like Dooku, Vader, Palpatine, she has no story.)

purifier
07-31-2009, 07:05 PM
I couldn't say one way or the other, teams 1 and 5 would probably be a even match against each other. I figure it would be one long drawn out battle though, no doubt.

Gob
07-31-2009, 07:07 PM
I couldn't say one way or the other, teams 1 and 5 would probably be a even match against each other. I figure it would be one long drawn out battle though, no doubt.

Actually, if Team 1 has their powers, it would be a quick match in their favor. If not, then it would be a quick match in Team 5's favor.

ZimmMaster
07-31-2009, 07:41 PM
Team 1 or 4.

Lord of Hunger
08-01-2009, 06:16 PM
After reviewing evidence from TSL, I have come to the conclusion that I was originally wrong: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VvS5MLnG0Y

There are lines in this video that indicate the powers of the Ancient Sith lied in the act of Force Vampiricy. We know that Nihilus learned how to master his hunger and turn into a world consuming ability on Malachor V, but this points out that Force Vampiricy is an ability that the Trayus Academy was built to teach...meaning that the Ancient Sith did use it. If so, that means that Marka Ragnos, Ludo Kreesh, and Naga Sadow all possessed a somewhat lesser version of Nihilus' power.

This allows them to defeat Team 1 because:

a) Force Vampires are immune to other Force Vampires (example: Nihilus vs. Exile). This means that Nihilus' advantage over them is gone.

b) Sion would be drained by the Ancient Sith.

c) All of Kreia's knowledge is the same as Team 5, so they would likely beat her due to being 3 vs. 1 after they toast Nihilus and Sion.

So I now conclude that not only does Team 5 defeat Team 1, but also all the other Teams.

Ping
08-02-2009, 12:20 PM
Alright, I'll agree with you there thtat the Ancient Sith probably did know a lesser version of Nihilius's power, but just because they knew it, doesn't mean that everybody used it. Kind of similar to Battle Meditation; the Jedi and Sith knew it existed, but not everybody used it.

Trench
08-02-2009, 11:01 PM
^He makes a good point. If team 5 had no knowledge of Force Vampiricy, they wouldn't stand a chance.

purifier
08-02-2009, 11:16 PM
Wow! Check it out, teams 2 and 5 are running neck to neck in the poll. I wonder how long that will last?

Gob
08-02-2009, 11:26 PM
Wow! Check it out, teams 2 and 5 are running neck to neck in the poll. I wonder how long that will last?

And Team 2 would get dismantled, too. The people sure do love Revan...

Ping
08-03-2009, 06:48 AM
^He makes a good point. If team 5 had no knowledge of Force Vampiricy, they wouldn't stand a chance.

I never said they had no knowledge, I just said that some didn't use it. If Naga Sadow used it, I'm pretty sure he'd do it over his battle meditation.

Trench
08-03-2009, 11:17 AM
I never said they had no knowledge, I just said that some didn't use it. If Naga Sadow used it, I'm pretty sure he'd do it over his battle meditation.

I know. I was agreeing with you and adding my own point.

Lord of Hunger
08-03-2009, 01:26 PM
Alright, I'll agree with you there thtat the Ancient Sith probably did know a lesser version of Nihilius's power, but just because they knew it, doesn't mean that everybody used it. Kind of similar to Battle Meditation; the Jedi and Sith knew it existed, but not everybody used it.
Except consider the sort of military that the Sith wield. The entire Sith species was Force Sensitive. Individuals like Naga Sadow would have been passively drawing power from their own armies! Hell, Lucas himself described the nature of the "dark side" as leech like. It is only logical that the Ancient Sith were all Force Vampires who commanded vast legions of their kind into battle, only to draw any excess energy and use it for abilities like Battle Meditation (we know that Naga Sadow was used that ability, but the possibility that it would be fueled by the excess energy of his own soldiers would explain a lot).

Ping
08-03-2009, 01:45 PM
Except consider the sort of military that the Sith wield. The entire Sith species was Force Sensitive. Individuals like Naga Sadow would have been passively drawing power from their own armies! Hell, Lucas himself described the nature of the "dark side" as leech like. It is only logical that the Ancient Sith were all Force Vampires who commanded vast legions of their kind into battle, only to draw any excess energy and use it for abilities like Battle Meditation (we know that Naga Sadow was used that ability, but the possibility that it would be fueled by the excess energy of his own soldiers would explain a lot).

Possibility, not fact. And besides, if Sadow was leeching the power off his minions, or every great True Sith could be a force vampire, I'm sure they'd be a pushover to the Republic, and most of the True Sith would've been immortal.

Lord of Hunger
08-03-2009, 02:54 PM
1) The Ancient Sith did indeed have great lifespans, but having more Force energy does not result in immortality. Nihilus was slowly being consumed by his own power: he had to store his consciousness in his armor, and when the Exile broke it during the Battle of Telos what was left of his soul passed on. The Ancient Sith probably did not use Force Vampiricy enough to result in that sort of self-destruction but they had no means of immortality.

2) As the Ancient/True Sith had powers that made the Modern/False Sith look like pansies, so the Ancient Jedi probably had as well. In fact, note how Soreshu (a form that reflects or deflects aggressive moves) is considered to be the embodiment of the Jedi philosophy in lightsaber combat form. I believe that the Ancient Jedi had techniques of reflection, deflection, and immunity and a degree of mastery that made them equals to the Ancient Sith. I also believe that those techniques and that degree of mastery was lost just as the abilities of the Ancient Sith were lost.

How did this happen? Well for one, there is evidence of a distinct decline in the philosophical and moral state of the Jedi Order, especially by the time of KOTOR and TSL where the Jedi Council's belief in its own superiority and unwillingness to take action resulted in the Jedi Civil War. It is important to note that as you go along the timeline the Jedi become increasingly like the Sith in that their focus is to destroy the other in order to install their ideology as the reigning one. Atris, Vrook, the Jedi Covenant, and Mace Windu are examples of the fact that the Jedi over time became the entity they opposed minus the name, appearance, and superior power that Modern Sith have over Modern Jedi. The New Jedi Order was a partial step back to the ways of the Ancient/True Jedi, but by the time of Cade Skywalker they had reverted to the modern ways.

3) In addition to the actions of brilliant strategists in that time such as Empress Teta, the Ancient Sith fell victim to their own in-fighting such as Gav vs. Naga Sadow and Naga Sadow vs. Ludo Kreesh. The fact that Gav transmitted the Hyperspace Coordinates of the Ancient Sith Empire allowed the Republic to launch a counterstrike just as the Ancient Sith were destroying each other. The result was the near-annihilation of one of the greatest Empires the Galaxy had ever seen.

Ping
08-04-2009, 09:41 AM
The Ancient Sith did indeed have great lifespans, but having more Force energy does not result in immortality. Nihilus was slowly being consumed by his own power: he had to store his consciousness in his armor, and when the Exile broke it during the Battle of Telos what was left of his soul passed on. The Ancient Sith probably did not use Force Vampiricy enough to result in that sort of self-destruction but they had no means of immortality.

Not quite what I said about immortality. What I was trying to say was if the True Sith could drain life from others, then they'd do so to be immortal.

TKA-001
08-09-2009, 08:06 AM
Three possible outcomes. Which one occurs depends on which one can happen first.

1. Darth Nihilus' drain ability kills everyone present (including his teammates) except for the Exile, on whom he drains his strength. Weakened, Nihilus is finished off by the Exile, who is the only survivor.

2. The Exile's drain ability kills everyone present (including his or her teammates) except for Darth Nihilus, on whom he or she drains his or her strength. Weakened, the Exile is finished off by Nihilus, who is the only survivor.

3. Palpatine conjures a kamikaze Force storm which obliterates the entire area, killing all contestants including himself. He then returns by reincarnating himself in one of his clones on Byss. Though his team won, there is no high-fiving because his teammates are dead, and Palpatine will have to start over on his search for an ideal apprentice. In short, a day in the life of the Galactic Emperor wasted by a hypothetical situation.

Lord of Hunger
08-11-2009, 03:09 AM
Three possible outcomes. Which one occurs depends on which one can happen first.

1. Darth Nihilus' drain ability kills everyone present (including his teammates) except for the Exile, on whom he drains his strength. Weakened, Nihilus is finished off by the Exile, who is the only survivor.
Likely, except Team Five is made of True Sith and as I pointed out they are Force Vampires as well. That makes them immune to Nihilus.
2. The Exile's drain ability kills everyone present (including his or her teammates) except for Darth Nihilus, on whom he or she drains his or her strength. Weakened, the Exile is finished off by Nihilus, who is the only survivor.
Except the Exile's Force Vampiricy is not the same as Nihilus'. As a light sider, the Exile uses Passive Force Vampiricy, which draws upon excess radiating energy or draws upon the bonds of others. As a dark sider, the Exile uses a significantly weaker version of Aggressive Force Vampiricy that is nowhere near as strong as Nihilus. As far as we have seen, the Exile's opponents have to already be dying to be susceptible to his/er power.
3. Palpatine conjures a kamikaze Force storm which obliterates the entire area, killing all contestants including himself.
As brilliant and almighty as Palpatine is made out to be, again he is not that powerful. Yes, he may have learned Ancient Sith techniques from the Telos Holocron even, but that does not make him a master. Any of the True/Ancient Sith are more than his match (and wield Force Vampiricy). His Dun Moch will be no match against masters of perception like Darth Traya and strategy like Revan. Darth Sion will keep coming back over and over again because he has no reason to surrender. Unidentified Sith from the TOR trailer, Darth Malak, and Darth Maul will be tough fights. Darth Bane will be a nightmare for Palpy since much of Palpy's knowledge is a result of the teachings of Bane...who is likely his equal. Exile...depends on a variety of factors. And Nihilus can easily suck away Palpatine's power as he is charging up his Super Saiyan Force Storm.
He then returns by reincarnating himself in one of his clones on Byss. Though his team won, there is no high-fiving because his teammates are dead, and Palpatine will have to start over on his search for an ideal apprentice. In short, a day in the life of the Galactic Emperor wasted by a hypothetical situation.
Except that if he attempts to even flee his soul will be even more vulnerable to assault by Nihilus, Exile, and the Ancient Sith. No amount of techniques would defend him because not only would his guard be down, but non-existent.

Just because he took over the Galaxy does not make him the Greatest Sith ever. From what we know about the Ancient Sith Empire, the True Sith were worshiped as unstoppable Gods and were stopped only due to a great deal of infighting, Empress Teta's brilliant strategies, the power of the Ancient/True Jedi, and also a bit of luck (yes, there is such a thing no matter what Kenobi says). Palpatine won because he was able to kill off one of the Jedi Order's few decently powerful Jedi Masters and convinced a whinny angst-ridden brat to go wacko on everyone he cared about.

And remember that no amount of persuasion guarantees such absolute obedience that he wielded. The Core Worlds already wanted the Galactic Empire even before the Clone Wars, because in the hearts of the people the ideals of democracy were dead. Palpatine merely gave them an excuse to make their wish a reality. Hell the Separatists under Dooku wanted to make a New Order of their own.

Preying on the mental weaknesses of others is only so admirable. If the Rebel Alliance had never happened, how long do you think that Palpatine's empire would have lasted? We know for a fact that power was even more decentralized than in the Galactic Republic. This is a recipe for warlords and feudalism that was inevitable. The Rebel Alliance merely set it off prematurely when they killed off Palpatine and Vader. Give a couple decades and the tension between the Moffs would have been so high that it would result in an all-out war that Palpy would have not been able to stop or escape. You'd have Moffs building Death Stars right and left, and someone would get the idea of using one on Coruscant in a surprise attack.

And how long would have Vader remained loyal? I doubt the guy planned to kneel before Palpy forever...he would been raising an army of secret apprentices to take the Emperor down and put himself at the top with an Order similar to the One Sith.

And I could go on and on at this. It is so easy to tear Palpatine apart because he frankly just got lucky at a few things. Yes, he could see far into the future and predict a lot of stuff. Did he predict Luke? Leia? Kenobi surviving? Galen nearly defeating him? Vader backstabbing him? A new generation rising up to claim the future? He saw only what he wanted to see, and that was his ultimate weakness.

Ping
08-11-2009, 10:43 AM
@Lord of Hunger: That's only a theory that the True Sith were Vampires. You don't know that for sure. And honestly, Force Vampiricy does not equal "unstoppable, most powerful, Jedi/Sith evar!". Yes, Palpatine would have a hard time attacking the True Sith, but almost all the True Sith up there had swords instead of combat lightsabers.

TKA-001
08-11-2009, 11:58 AM
Likely, except Team Five is made of True Sith and as I pointed out they are Force Vampires as well. That makes them immune to Nihilus.
The term "True Sith" doesn't make any difference comparing individual peoples' abilities. More to the point, there is no evidence in the canon that any of the Sith Lords mentioned are "Force Vampires".

Except the Exile's Force Vampiricy is not the same as Nihilus'. As a light sider, the Exile uses Passive Force Vampiricy, which draws upon excess radiating energy or draws upon the bonds of others.
We aren't talking about a light-sider Exile here.

As a dark sider, the Exile uses a significantly weaker version of Aggressive Force Vampiricy that is nowhere near as strong as Nihilus. As far as we have seen, the Exile's opponents have to already be dying to be susceptible to his/er power.
That was only the way it was when dark-side Exile fights the Jedi Masters because she/he has only been dark for a short time. Nihilus' planet-killing abilities didn't spring up overnight. Why should it be any different here?

As brilliant and almighty as Palpatine is made out to be, again he is not that powerful. Yes, he may have learned Ancient Sith techniques from the Telos Holocron even, but that does not make him a master. Any of the True/Ancient Sith are more than his match (and wield Force Vampiricy).
First of all, the "True" Sith are not Force "vampires" (I don't know why you don't just call them wounds in the Force). That aside, let's look at the known talents and abilities of each Sith on team 5.

Naga Sadow: Dark Lord of the Sith, naturally significantly more powerful than standard Sith Lords and the like; Highly skilled at creation of Force-based illusions; Possible ability to manipulate stars (unknown if this was his own power or gained from a Sith artifact which he had with him when he demonstrated this power)

Ludo Kressh: Wookieepedia doesn't even have a section on his powers and abilities, but he presumably at least has standard "Dark Lord of the Sith" power.

Marka Ragnos: Never actually shown in a story in which he was alive. Said by Kreia in KotOR II to have standard "Dark Lord of the Sith"-level power, but the fact that he was beaten single-handedly by Jaden Korr, a Jedi who had been a Knight for less than a year, does not make him sound like an ultra-Jedi-killing badass to me.

Have any of these Sith killed three Jedi Masters in less than ten seconds? No. The above Sith haven't really been known for much except killing each other in their civil wars.

His Dun Moch will be no match against masters of perception like Darth Traya and strategy like Revan.
First of all, you're assuming that Palpatine relies on use of Dun Moch (which is something that no Sith does). I'm also waiting on the mountain of examples you think you have which proves that Traya is a greater master of perception than Palpatine (who spent decades building a power base inside the Republic), or that Revan is a greater master of strategy than Palpatine (even if Revan is, militarily, that doesn't have anything to do with this scenario).

Darth Sion will keep coming back over and over again because he has no reason to surrender.
...so what happens if Sion gets his head cut off in the melee? Does the lightsaber just fail to cut through his skin? Does he immediately grow new flesh and bone that instantly fuses his head back onto his neck? What if he's cut in half? Does he immediately grow a new lower half?

Sion is not invincible. His power is to stay alive despite the injuries he's already sustained since before TSL. It isn't a god mode cheat.

Unidentified Sith from the TOR trailer
The Sith from the TOR trailer has done nothing that Darth Vader's apprentice hasn't surpassed. There is no reason to believe he's even close to the power level of the other Sith Lords in this scenario.

Darth Bane will be a nightmare for Palpy since much of Palpy's knowledge is a result of the teachings of Bane...who is likely his equal.
What is it with your obsession about earlier Sith being superior to later Sith just because of some handwaving about the "True" Sith inventing some teachings that their successors might have used? The only teaching Bane invented that was sort of used by Palpatine was the Rule of Two. What does that have to do with their abilities in combat? Yes, Bane was quite a beast as seen in his as-of-yet-incomplete trilogy, but while undeniably powerful, nothing he's done has surpassed the scope of things accomplished by other Sith Lords.

And Nihilus can easily suck away Palpatine's power as he is charging up his Super Saiyan Force Storm.
You wish. Nihilus is far more vulnerable than you like to think. Let's use the confrontation on the Ravager as an example. The Exile and her/his companions walked onto the bridge. Nihilus spent at least a minute and a half arguing with them in his untranslated language, and then tried to drain the Exile.

Nihilus' perceptions of the world around him are severely impaired by the state his hunger has reduced him to. The Exile and her/his friends could have simply shot him in the back. Why would Nihilus be able to feed faster than Palpatine could conjure a Force Storm? I don't recall Dark Empire mentioning that Force Storms require much preparation time, though I might be mistaken.

Except that if he attempts to even flee his soul will be even more vulnerable to assault by Nihilus, Exile, and the Ancient Sith. No amount of techniques would defend him because not only would his guard be down, but non-existent.
Did you forget the previous part of my post? If Palpatine kills himself with the Force Storm, then so will everyone else in the area be killed. You also have no evidence to suggest that Palpatine's spirit would be so much more vulnerable than before (Ajunta Pall's ghost was very capable of fighting and killing Revan).

Just because he took over the Galaxy does not make him the Greatest Sith ever.
Correct. What makes him that is the fact that his powers match or surpass virtually any other Sith, and his accomplishments far outweigh those of any other Sith by a ridiculously large degree.

From what we know about the Ancient Sith Empire, the True Sith were worshiped as unstoppable Gods and were stopped only due to a great deal of infighting, Empress Teta's brilliant strategies, the power of the Ancient/True Jedi, and also a bit of luck (yes, there is such a thing no matter what Kenobi says).
The "True Sith" were not worshipped as gods. You're thinking of the Dark Jedi Exiles, who were treated as gods by the primitive Sith inhabitants when they arrived at Korriban. And so what? Why is that so much greater than anything other Sith have done?

Palpatine won because he was able to kill off one of the Jedi Order's few decently powerful Jedi Masters and convinced a whinny angst-ridden brat to go wacko on everyone he cared about.
First you downplay the strength of the four Jedi who confronted Palpatine (which there is no evidence for), then you pretend that Palpatine somehow needed Anakin on his side to win, which is bogus. Mace Windu did fairly disarm Palpatine, but he was by no means unable to escape for continue to fight for himself. Palpatine did not need Anakin to dissolve the Republic and turn it into the Empire, nor did he need Anakin in order to destroy the Jedi Order (his clone army did that just fine, and Operation Knightfall would have been just as successful without Vader as with him). Getting Anakin as an apprentice was simply a bonus. Anakin was hardly the only Force user in the galaxy who would do just fine as an apprentice.

And remember that no amount of persuasion guarantees such absolute obedience that he wielded. The Core Worlds already wanted the Galactic Empire even before the Clone Wars, because in the hearts of the people the ideals of democracy were dead. Palpatine merely gave them an excuse to make their wish a reality. Hell the Separatists under Dooku wanted to make a New Order of their own.
So what? Of course Palpatine didn't make everyone's ambitions spring up out of nowhere; He simply used them, and that was just as good. His powers of persuading the public were only of use in regards to the Republic, when in the guise of the Supreme Chancellor. For the rest of the galaxy and also in the Republic, he manipulated everyone's desires to set his own plans in motion. As for the Confederacy, their government would never have been formed if Palpatine hadn't had Dooku unite them.

Preying on the mental weaknesses of others is only so admirable. If the Rebel Alliance had never happened, how long do you think that Palpatine's empire would have lasted?
Likely indefinitely.

We know for a fact that power was even more decentralized than in the Galactic Republic.
That's a load of bull****. Power in the Empire was centralized around the Emperor and his direct subjects.

This is a recipe for warlords and feudalism that was inevitable.
Even though the Empire was not as decentralized as the Republic as you claim, it is true that civil wars and coups were inevitable. In fact, several coups and civil wars did occur in the Empire (two were the Anti-Sith Conspiracy engineered by Moff Trachta and the civil war caused by Grand Admiral Zaarin), Palpatine dealt with all of them just fine.

Give a couple decades and the tension between the Moffs would have been so high that it would result in an all-out war that Palpy would have not been able to stop or escape. You'd have Moffs building Death Stars right and left, and someone would get the idea of using one on Coruscant in a surprise attack.
This idea is so less than half-baked that you'd never guess it was ever placed in an oven in the first place. If these problems were such a huge deal, then why did none of them actually happen? First of all, you forget the fact that Palpatine was extremely popular with the Empire's leadership. They all either viewed him as the noble leader whose leadership allowed them to survive the "rebellion" led by the "corrupt, evil Jedi", or as a sick old man whom they could exploit - and the latter crowd didn't want Palpatine dead. Rather, the ones who thought they could exploit the Emperor viewed him as a blind, isolated figurehead whom they could use to build a powerbase for themselves and live it up, when in reality Palpatine was secretly very involved with the Empire and used their belief of him being a chump to increase their power, as long as they did what he wanted them to. Also, all of the Empire's atrocities were blamed on those subordinate to him, like Vader. The Emperor had very little blood on his own hands, which is why the public didn't want him gone.

Second, no, you would not have anyone building multiple Death Stars. There's no way Palpatine would allow people to build private Death Stars, and no Moff or Grand Moff in the Empire had that many resources at their disposal anyhow. Palpatine did suffer from civil war and surprise coups by his subjects in the Empire, and none of them worked.

And how long would have Vader remained loyal? I doubt the guy planned to kneel before Palpy forever...he would been raising an army of secret apprentices to take the Emperor down and put himself at the top with an Order similar to the One Sith.
Another one-thirtieth-baked idea. Vader would remain loyal to Palpatine as long as he had no apprentice to kill him with. Vader would likely never be able to take Palpy in a fight on his own.

As for the army of secret apprentices things... For ****'s sake, do I seriously need to explain what is wrong with this idea? There's no way Vader could train an army of Force users period, due simply to the time that would take, let alone without Palpatine's knowledge. Besides, if Vader has more than one apprentice, what's to stop one or more of the apprentices from betraying him?

Galen nearly defeating him?
Galen did not nearly defeat Palpatine. He Force-pushed him a couple of times before getting curb-stomped. That's it.

And I could go on and on at this. It is so easy to tear Palpatine apart because he frankly just got lucky at a few things. Yes, he could see far into the future and predict a lot of stuff. Did he predict Luke? Leia? Kenobi surviving? Galen nearly defeating him? Vader backstabbing him? A new generation rising up to claim the future? He saw only what he wanted to see, and that was his ultimate weakness.
And the fact that he wasn't completely invincible makes him inferior to your fanon elevated "True" Sith how, exactly? They all got defeated and killed, too. Moreover, what does any of this have to do with the scenario described in this thread's original post?

Lord of Hunger
08-11-2009, 01:48 PM
The term "True Sith" doesn't make any difference comparing individual peoples' abilities. More to the point, there is no evidence in the canon that any of the Sith Lords mentioned are "Force Vampires".
Except the source I have cited, and even the all important arguments of George Lucas that the nature of the Dark Side is parasitism. It only makes sense that one of the greatest dark side Empires practiced that belief.
We aren't talking about a light-sider Exile here.
Okay.
That was only the way it was when dark-side Exile fights the Jedi Masters because she/he has only been dark for a short time. Nihilus' planet-killing abilities didn't spring up overnight. Why should it be any different here?
For starters, Nihilus trained under Darth Traya and the teachings of Malachor to get his technique even close to where it was. It is likely that in order study such techniques of Malachor, one has to have a teacher who can accurately translate Ancient Sith. Since DS Exile is on a different Team, he/she has no such teacher or access to Malachor and as such his/her vampiricy goes only as far as instinct.
First of all, the "True" Sith are not Force "vampires" (I don't know why you don't just call them wounds in the Force). That aside, let's look at the known talents and abilities of each Sith on team 5.
Again, see my evidence.
Naga Sadow: Dark Lord of the Sith, naturally significantly more powerful than standard Sith Lords and the like; Highly skilled at creation of Force-based illusions; Possible ability to manipulate stars (unknown if this was his own power or gained from a Sith artifact which he had with him when he demonstrated this power)
Not to mention Battle Meditation.
Ludo Kressh: Wookieepedia doesn't even have a section on his powers and abilities, but he presumably at least has standard "Dark Lord of the Sith" power.

Marka Ragnos: Never actually shown in a story in which he was alive. Said by Kreia in KotOR II to have standard "Dark Lord of the Sith"-level power, but the fact that he was beaten single-handedly by Jaden Korr, a Jedi who had been a Knight for less than a year, does not make him sound like an ultra-Jedi-killing badass to me.
Kreia said that he was strong immensely physically and in the Force. He was also both highly feared and respected by all the other Sith Lords. Remember how he was Dark Lord over the Golden Age of the Sith? A Dark Lord who can keep a whole Council of Lords obedient even when there is no enemy to fight has to be extremely powerful as the nature of the Sith dictates that they fight each other when there is no one else to fight. As for Jaden Korr, it is likely that since he was possess a body with far less potential than he actually has and was unfamiliar to him resulted in this defeat. In fact, Tavion had already been worn out from the duel.
Have any of these Sith killed three Jedi Masters in less than ten seconds? No. The above Sith haven't really been known for much except killing each other in their civil wars.
Uh....
If you were to face an Ancient Sith Lord in combat you would find that we are as but children playing with toys.
And don't give me the whole "KREIA ALWAYS LIES!!!!1!" deal again...why would she lie about this. In fact, it is apparent that the Jedi Order over time declined from what it was during the Great Hyperspace War as the Jedi Masters became increasingly arrogant and the Jedi in general became more dependent on the Force instead of real-life skills, thus actually decreasing their Force potential. Meanwhile the Ancient Sith both had armies of Force Sensitive Massassi Warriors and Kissai priests to serve them. They created Sith Sorcery! Sith Amulets that made even non-Force Sensitives Force Sensitives! They also wielded technologies and teachings from the remains of the Infinite Empire. The fact that they were stopped is a miracle.
First of all, you're assuming that Palpatine relies on use of Dun Moch (which is something that no Sith does). I'm also waiting on the mountain of examples you think you have which proves that Traya is a greater master of perception than Palpatine (who spent decades building a power base inside the Republic), or that Revan is a greater master of strategy than Palpatine (even if Revan is, militarily, that doesn't have anything to do with this scenario).
Palpatine was a master of Dun Moch and used it heavily during his duel with Yoda.

Traya had studied and mastered perception control at Malachor, it is her core ability. She could not only hide her aura, but her presence too. And she could remotely control memories, send telepathic messages across the Galaxy. Do Palpatine's abilities reach that far?
...so what happens if Sion gets his head cut off in the melee? Does the lightsaber just fail to cut through his skin? Does he immediately grow new flesh and bone that instantly fuses his head back onto his neck? What if he's cut in half? Does he immediately grow a new lower half?
More like he reattaches those body parts and then uses Force Crush on whoever did it.
Sion is not invincible. His power is to stay alive despite the injuries he's already sustained since before TSL. It isn't a god mode cheat.
Actually he was practically as close to invincible as you can get: the only way you can kill him in combat is if he is willing to die. A lot had happened in TSL to make him doubt himself and Darth Traya, and then you had the Exile whom if Female he secretly love and if Male he was jealous of. Palpatine has no such advantage.
The Sith from the TOR trailer has done nothing that Darth Vader's apprentice hasn't surpassed. There is no reason to believe he's even close to the power level of the other Sith Lords in this scenario.
Because Starkiller is uber 1337? Starkiller has a lot of potential but like Darth Vader before A New Hope it was not refined.
What is it with your obsession about earlier Sith being superior to later Sith just because of some handwaving about the "True" Sith inventing some teachings that their successors might have used? The only teaching Bane invented that was sort of used by Palpatine was the Rule of Two. What does that have to do with their abilities in combat? Yes, Bane was quite a beast as seen in his as-of-yet-incomplete trilogy, but while undeniably powerful, nothing he's done has surpassed the scope of things accomplished by other Sith Lords.
Because Bane was the very founder of Palpy's Order. Palpy's techniques were acquired either through Holocrons or the teachings of Darth Bane that were passed on and refined over time.
You wish. Nihilus is far more vulnerable than you like to think. Let's use the confrontation on the Ravager as an example. The Exile and her/his companions walked onto the bridge. Nihilus spent at least a minute and a half arguing with them in his untranslated language, and then tried to drain the Exile.
Considering you had a Force Blackhole (Exile), some mortal (Mandalore), and his former apprentice (Visas), he had no reason to consume them immediately. If Palpatine was there instead, Nihilus' reaction would have been "FOODFOODFOODFOOD!!! OM NOM NOM NOM NOM NOM!!!"

Okay, I admit that was a bit silly but I think you get my point. :D
Nihilus' perceptions of the world around him are severely impaired by the state his hunger has reduced him to. The Exile and her/his friends could have simply shot him in the back.
Shooting him in the back would have done nothing. There was no flesh: he was a spirit, some robes, and armor. They would have singed his robe and right after would have been attacked.
Why would Nihilus be able to feed faster than Palpatine could conjure a Force Storm? I don't recall Dark Empire mentioning that Force Storms require much preparation time, though I might be mistaken.
You don't just use an ability of that power requirement on that magnitude in an instant. And as pointed out in Dark Empire Palpatine had little to no control.
Did you forget the previous part of my post? If Palpatine kills himself with the Force Storm, then so will everyone else in the area be killed.
Except in Dark Empire Luke and Leia escaped?
You also have no evidence to suggest that Palpatine's spirit would be so much more vulnerable than before (Ajunta Pall's ghost was very capable of fighting and killing Revan).
If he's fleeing his guard is down, and if there is no shielding of a body his spirit is more vulnerable to Force assault.
Correct. What makes him that is the fact that his powers match or surpass virtually any other Sith, and his accomplishments far outweigh those of any other Sith by a ridiculously large degree.
What are these accomplishments you keep talking about? The Jedi Order at that time was PATHETIC, just as blinded by their own hubris as Palpy was at the Battle of Endor and several other instances! The Republic was already on its way to becoming like the Empire. He was defeated by his half dead apprentice throwing him into a reactor core, then again by two junior Jedi Knights. All the damage that was ever dealt to the Alliance was through Imperial Forces, not by him.
The "True Sith" were not worshipped as gods. You're thinking of the Dark Jedi Exiles, who were treated as gods by the primitive Sith inhabitants when they arrived at Korriban. And so what? Why is that so much greater than anything other Sith have done?
A Sith Empire that at least at one point was completely solidified, unified, and possessed a massive section of the Galaxy under its fist? Nearly defeating the Republic and returning to finish the job again? Possessing some of the most powerful Sith techniques available?
First you downplay the strength of the four Jedi who confronted Palpatine (which there is no evidence for),
Their defeat was a JOKE.
then you pretend that Palpatine somehow needed Anakin on his side to win, which is bogus.
So you think that the clones would have won the Battle of the Jedi Temple that quickly and easily without Anakin, or at all? Anakin managed to take down their greatest lightsaber duelist, who would have managed to rally a significant defense. Many of the successes against the Rebel Alliance were due to Darth Vader.
Mace Windu did fairly disarm Palpatine, but he was by no means unable to escape for continue to fight for himself. Palpatine did not need Anakin to dissolve the Republic and turn it into the Empire, nor did he need Anakin in order to destroy the Jedi Order (his clone army did that just fine, and Operation Knightfall would have been just as successful without Vader as with him). Getting Anakin as an apprentice was simply a bonus. Anakin was hardly the only Force user in the galaxy who would do just fine as an apprentice.
Then why didn't he just stick with Dooku, a far more refined individual?
So what? Of course Palpatine didn't make everyone's ambitions spring up out of nowhere; He simply used them, and that was just as good. His powers of persuading the public were only of use in regards to the Republic, when in the guise of the Supreme Chancellor. For the rest of the galaxy and also in the Republic, he manipulated everyone's desires to set his own plans in motion. As for the Confederacy, their government would never have been formed if Palpatine hadn't had Dooku unite them.
So your saying Palpatine is great for speeding up a conflict that was inevitable and then creating an Empire that the Core Worlds already wanted? Revan converted a host of Jedi and Republic officers and soldiers to defy their core LOYALTIES and serve him. That take genius.
Likely indefinitely.
Tell that to the Infinite Empire.
That's a load of bull****. Power in the Empire was centralized around the Emperor and his direct subjects.
Sigh....
The Galactic Empire was actually more decentralized than the Galactic Republic. Systems were grouped in sectors and sectors in turn into oversectors. These were controlled by the Moffs and Grand Moffs, who exercised power in the disparate regions of the galaxy. This was in contrast to the structure of the Galactic Republic, which placed senators in control of their respective sectors.
And....
The Imperial Ruling Council was the name given to the group of Imperial Advisors who constituted the most powerful collective body in the galaxy during the New Order. While Palpatine was Emperor, it was the Council that managed the Empire and carried out his will. After his death, it became the effective central government of the Empire.
Sounds like not only was Palpatine a somewhat powerless figurehead, but his empire was set to divide into a bunch of feudal states at any given time.
Even though the Empire was not as decentralized as the Republic as you claim, it is true that civil wars and coups were inevitable. In fact, several coups and civil wars did occur in the Empire (two were the Anti-Sith Conspiracy engineered by Moff Trachta and the civil war caused by Grand Admiral Zaarin), Palpatine dealt with all of them just fine.
That was likely just the beginning of what was about to happen as soon as a Death Star arms races would have erupted.
This idea is so less than half-baked that you'd never guess it was ever placed in an oven in the first place.
Yeah, that is so whity. :raise: If you are trying to make me feel like somehow my arguments are poorly constructed and you are an expert on this field, you are not succeeding.
If these problems were such a huge deal, then why did none of them actually happen? First of all, you forget the fact that Palpatine was extremely popular with the Empire's leadership. They all either viewed him as the noble leader whose leadership allowed them to survive the "rebellion" led by the "corrupt, evil Jedi", or as a sick old man whom they could exploit - and the latter crowd didn't want Palpatine dead. Rather, the ones who thought they could exploit the Emperor viewed him as a blind, isolated figurehead whom they could use to build a powerbase for themselves and live it up, when in reality Palpatine was secretly very involved with the Empire and used their belief of him being a chump to increase their power, as long as they did what he wanted them to. Also, all of the Empire's atrocities were blamed on those subordinate to him, like Vader. The Emperor had very little blood on his own hands, which is why the public didn't want him gone.
Have you read 1984 by chance? Using the right technology, any faction could pretend that Palpatine is on their side to the point where Palpatine doesn't have to even be alive any more. The fact that his actual death could be proven made such an act impossible, but if he had never died at Endor they could have quietly assassinated him, and then pretended for a while that he was alive with good tech.
Second, no, you would not have anyone building multiple Death Stars. There's no way Palpatine would allow people to build private Death Stars, and no Moff or Grand Moff in the Empire had that many resources at their disposal anyhow.
They were already researching even more powerful weapons. I sincerely doubt that the Death Star I was the only one that they would have built. To quote one man: "The Emperor had little of anything built only once."
Palpatine did suffer from civil war and surprise coups by his subjects in the Empire, and none of them worked.
YET. What happens when the equally overhyped Thrawn combines Imperial Forces with the tech and resources of the Chiss Ascendancy? How long does Palpatine last against a strategist like that with such an army?
Another one-thirtieth-baked idea.
:raise:
Vader would remain loyal to Palpatine as long as he had no apprentice to kill him with. Vader would likely never be able to take Palpy in a fight on his own.

As for the army of secret apprentices things... For ****'s sake, do I seriously need to explain what is wrong with this idea? There's no way Vader could train an army of Force users period, due simply to the time that would take, let alone without Palpatine's knowledge. Besides, if Vader has more than one apprentice, what's to stop one or more of the apprentices from betraying him?
It would take awhile but it is perfectly possible. As for betrayal, even your average Sith doesn't betray his/her teammate before achieving their goal. In fact, if Vader runs a secret One Sith-style order, betrayal is even more unlikely.

And Vader, if he's gone completely over, will likely turn on Palpatine out of his own ambition and after recognizing that Palpatine's actions (immortality and the like) would result in the stagnation of the Sith Order as a whole.
Galen did not nearly defeat Palpatine. He Force-pushed him a couple of times before getting curb-stomped. That's it.
He was able to deflect his lightning in the same way as Yoda...I'd say that's pretty dang good.
And the fact that he wasn't completely invincible makes him inferior to your fanon elevated "True" Sith how, exactly? They all got defeated and killed, too. Moreover, what does any of this have to do with the scenario described in this thread's original post?
It is important to the debate because they are all individuals central to the debate. :thmbup1: If you're gonna figure out which group defeats which, you gotta make an accurate assessment of each one. So far I'd say the assessment of Palpy has as usual been very off.

Giant Graffiti
08-11-2009, 02:26 PM
There was no flesh: he was a spirit, some robes, and armor.

Don't forget his dreadlocks and prosthetic nose! :D

Lord of Hunger
08-11-2009, 04:17 PM
Living flesh, mind you. ;) The dreadlocks and face were of a corpse. Nihilus' spirit lived in the armor.

Gurges-Ahter
08-11-2009, 04:42 PM
This might be a stupid question, but something I've thought about before. If Nihilus was all spirit, how come you can see eyes and flesh behind the mask in some pictures?

Example: The same pic used for your avatar, Lord of Hunger.
Link (http://media.moddb.com/images/games/1/1/237/Darth_Nihilus_.jpg)

Lord of Hunger
08-11-2009, 08:05 PM
As I said, he has some flesh but it's dead...animated by the Force. His spirit is in the armor around the flesh, which in turn is surrounded by the robes and mask. As Kreia said, he has forgotten his flesh, which means that he no longer inhabits it. You can kill him if you completely smash and slice up the armor enough that it can no longer hold the spirit, which is now primal intent and drive alone.

Ping
08-13-2009, 03:00 PM
Except the source I have cited, and even the all important arguments of George Lucas that the nature of the Dark Side is parasitism. It only makes sense that one of the greatest dark side Empires practiced that belief.
Just because it's nature is paratisitism, doesn't mean it actually makes others parasites.

For starters, Nihilus trained under Darth Traya and the teachings of Malachor to get his technique even close to where it was. It is likely that in order study such techniques of Malachor, one has to have a teacher who can accurately translate Ancient Sith. Since DS Exile is on a different Team, he/she has no such teacher or access to Malachor and as such his/her vampiricy goes only as far as instinct.
The Exile was just a Force wound. The only thing that made her different from Nihilius is that she didn't use her powers to it's full potential. And the Exile is canonically feamle, don't why you used "he/she".

Again, see my evidence.
What evidence? The only way a thing could be a Force vampire is if they were a wound in the Force, and if the True Sith were all Force wounds, we wouldn't have a Force.

Kreia said that he was strong immensely physically and in the Force. He was also both highly feared and respected by all the other Sith Lords. Remember how he was Dark Lord over the Golden Age of the Sith? A Dark Lord who can keep a whole Council of Lords obedient even when there is no enemy to fight has to be extremely powerful as the nature of the Sith dictates that they fight each other when there is no one else to fight. As for Jaden Korr, it is likely that since he was possess a body with far less potential than he actually has and was unfamiliar to him resulted in this defeat. In fact, Tavion had already been worn out from the duel.
Ragnos had to beat Simus before he could be the Dark Lord. He was respected, but that tells me he wasn't feared by everyone. As for the duel with Tavion, while the body wasn't his, he was using a lightsaber (which the True Sith only used for ceremonial purposes, and it was a modern saber, too), and a Sith sword imbued with dark side energy, plus he had all the Force powers Tavion had. It's a wonder Jaden could beat him.

And don't give me the whole "KREIA ALWAYS LIES!!!!1!" deal again...why would she lie about this.
Why would she lie about this?

In fact, it is apparent that the Jedi Order over time declined from what it was during the Great Hyperspace War as the Jedi Masters became increasingly arrogant and the Jedi in general became more dependent on the Force instead of real-life skills, thus actually decreasing their Force potential. Meanwhile the Ancient Sith both had armies of Force Sensitive Massassi Warriors and Kissai priests to serve them. They created Sith Sorcery! Sith Amulets that made even non-Force Sensitives Force Sensitives! They also wielded technologies and teachings from the remains of the Infinite Empire. The fact that they were stopped is a miracle.
Where the hell did that come from? Exar Kun was arrogant and wanted to learn more, and the combination of that led him to Dxun, which caused Freedon Nadd to seduce him to the Dark Side. I don't see how Exar's fault causes it to be the Jedi's fault as a whole. In a way, you could say Nadd started the Great Sith War. Also, Ulic Qel-Droma infiltrated the Krath with the best of intentions, yet he underestimated them and fell to the Dark Side, as they exploited his feelings of loss after Arca's death. Again, that's an individual's fault, not the Order's fault. I also seem to remember that Exar Kun never used the Massassi as combat troops, and only used Sith sorcery to forcibly turn Jedi to the Dark Side and to cause his spirit to run wild. Again, I don't see where your argument is coming from.

Palpatine was a master of Dun Moch and used it heavily during his duel with Yoda.
Just because he used in his duel with his little green friend does not mean he always used it. For example, Obi-Wan used Shii-Cho in the duel against Dooku on the Invisible Hand, but used Soresu against Grievous on Utupau.

Traya had studied and mastered perception control at Malachor, it is her core ability. She could not only hide her aura, but her presence too. And she could remotely control memories, send telepathic messages across the Galaxy. Do Palpatine's abilities reach that far?
I'm sure it does. You'd think Yoda or any of the other Jedi would sense that he's strong in the Force at some point, but they don't figure it out until it's too late. As for the telepathy, Palpatine was able to send an order to kill Skywalker to Mara Jade just before he died. So Palpy's telepathic abilities are just as good as Kreia's, if not better.

More like he reattaches those body parts and then uses Force Crush on whoever did it.
How would he reattach those parts?

Actually he was practically as close to invincible as you can get: the only way you can kill him in combat is if he is willing to die. A lot had happened in TSL to make him doubt himself and Darth Traya, and then you had the Exile whom if Female he secretly love and if Male he was jealous of. Palpatine has no such advantage.
Those may have been game mechanics, after all, if Sion could be killed through decapitation (nobody knows whether he could or couldn't be killed that way for sure), we'd have an M rated TSL.

Because Starkiller is uber 1337? Starkiller has a lot of potential but like Darth Vader before A New Hope it was not refined.
The guy from the trailer invaded the Jedi Temple, but had help. Starkiller, on the other hand, has single-handedly invaded and destroyed Imperial bases crawling with Imps, fought two rancors simultaneously, killed Shaak Ti while avoiding a mega-sarlaac, and brought down a freakin' Star Destroyer. I'd say his potential was fairly refined at the very least.

Because Bane was the very founder of Palpy's Order. Palpy's techniques were acquired either through Holocrons or the teachings of Darth Bane that were passed on and refined over time.
And if something is refined, then that means it's improved. And the holocrons Bane had included one by Darth Revan, so I see no reason why Palpatine wouldn't have learned from the same holocron and learned the same things. The only advantage I see with Bane is that he knew every lightsaber form, which is nothing compared to Palpy's Force powers.

Considering you had a Force Blackhole (Exile), some mortal (Mandalore), and his former apprentice (Visas), he had no reason to consume them immediately. If Palpatine was there instead, Nihilus' reaction would have been "FOODFOODFOODFOOD!!! OM NOM NOM NOM NOM NOM!!!"
Nihilius could have absorbed Mandalore as soon as he saw him. Also, Nihilius probably didn't realize that the Exile was a Force wound, and thought she was a regular Jedi, so really, he could have absorbed them at any time, but his overconfidence was his weakness. For Visas, being a Sith, he wouldn't hesitate to kill her. Palpatine might have just Force stromed the guy from the safety of his ship and take out the Ravager along with Nihilius.

Shooting him in the back would have done nothing. There was no flesh: he was a spirit, some robes, and armor. They would have singed his robe and right after would have been attacked.
Alright, you have obviously misinterpreted Kreia's comment on him. You can just make out a face behind the mask, and Kreia did say that you might be able to describe him as a man, not a spirit. I also think he was at the Battle of Malachor V. How could he be a spirit?

You don't just use an ability of that power requirement on that magnitude in an instant. And as pointed out in Dark Empire Palpatine had little to no control.
Control of the power has no releveance or relation to the conjuring time.

Except in Dark Empire Luke and Leia escaped?
Palpatine, like you said, couldn't really control it, and something of that magnitude is more suited for destroying armies than individuals.

If he's fleeing his guard is down, and if there is no shielding of a body his spirit is more vulnerable to Force assault.
Force assault, not physical assault.

What are these accomplishments you keep talking about? The Jedi Order at that time was PATHETIC, just as blinded by their own hubris as Palpy was at the Battle of Endor and several other instances! The Republic was already on its way to becoming like the Empire. He was defeated by his half dead apprentice throwing him into a reactor core, then again by two junior Jedi Knights. All the damage that was ever dealt to the Alliance was through Imperial Forces, not by him.
The Jedi killed the Emperor, survived the Vong War, was reestablished, and was able to survive tons of anti-Jedi sentiment. The Jedi were also not blinded, but pre-occupied with the Clone Wars, Vong War, Second Civil War, etc. Pathetic? You have seriously flawed logic.

A Sith Empire that at least at one point was completely solidified, unified, and possessed a massive section of the Galaxy under its fist? Nearly defeating the Republic and returning to finish the job again? Possessing some of the most powerful Sith techniques available?
Solidified and unified? Then why did Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh almost start a civil war?

Their defeat was a JOKE.
Hardly. If I were one of them, I wouldn't expect a guy at Palpatine's age to all of a sudden leap out and corkscrew through the air. Kit Fisto was at least able to block Palpatine's blows after being surprised, so that's something. And Mace would have won if Anakin had stayed put.

So you think that the clones would have won the Battle of the Jedi Temple that quickly and easily without Anakin, or at all? Anakin managed to take down their greatest lightsaber duelist, who would have managed to rally a significant defense. Many of the successes against the Rebel Alliance were due to Darth Vader.
The Clones had the element of surprise to start with, and most of the people ion the Temple were children. Palpatine might have joined them if Anakin hadn't come along. Also, Mace didn't expect Anakin to attack him, so I'd hardly call that a fair victory. Also, the Alliance didn't always succeed after Endor. They barely survived Thrawn.

Then why didn't he just stick with Dooku, a far more refined individual?
You're kidding, right? Anakin had killed him already, and Palpatine goaded him into doing it. He figured he could proceed with his plans without Dooku.

So your saying Palpatine is great for speeding up a conflict that was inevitable and then creating an Empire that the Core Worlds already wanted? Revan converted a host of Jedi and Republic officers and soldiers to defy their core LOYALTIES and serve him. That take genius.
It also takes genius to turn Anakin to the Dark side, eradicate the Jedi, manipulating everyone into believing the Jedi were villains, etc. Palptine was much better than Revan, like it or not.

Tell that to the Infinite Empire.
That has no relevance whatsoever to the Galactic Empire. The Rakata also fell due to bad timing. A massive rebellion starts just as a plague comes in. The Empire could just crush rebellions.

Sounds like not only was Palpatine a somewhat powerless figurehead, but his empire was set to divide into a bunch of feudal states at any given time.
Do you think that President Obama runs every single Federal Department and organization? Nope, and the same thing applies to here.

That was likely just the beginning of what was about to happen as soon as a Death Star arms races would have erupted.
No matter how much you read Darksaber, only something as big as the Galactic Empire could have made something on the scale of the Death Star.

Yeah, that is so whity. If you are trying to make me feel like somehow my arguments are poorly constructed and you are an expert on this field, you are not succeeding.
He seems expert enough to me. Your arguments, to me, have more holes than average. Just because you think the older Sith are better does not make it fact. You can like them, but that does not automatically make them more powerful than everyone else.

Have you read 1984 by chance? Using the right technology, any faction could pretend that Palpatine is on their side to the point where Palpatine doesn't have to even be alive any more. The fact that his actual death could be proven made such an act impossible, but if he had never died at Endor they could have quietly assassinated him, and then pretended for a while that he was alive with good tech.
I could be wrong here, but I believe some Imperial admirals tried to maintain that the Emperor was still alive to the different planets that they controlled.

They were already researching even more powerful weapons. I sincerely doubt that the Death Star I was the only one that they would have built. To quote one man: "The Emperor had little of anything built only once."
You're right: they built another Death Star. They also built the Eclipse twice, and there was a Death Star prototype located at the Maw, and they had tons of World Devastators. They probably would have started on those even if the Emperor was still alive.

YET. What happens when the equally overhyped Thrawn combines Imperial Forces with the tech and resources of the Chiss Ascendancy? How long does Palpatine last against a strategist like that with such an army?
He uses either a Force Storm, uses the Eclipse or some other superweapon to wipe out the fleet. And Thrawn would never betray the Emperor, either.

It would take awhile but it is perfectly possible. As for betrayal, even your average Sith doesn't betray his/her teammate before achieving their goal. In fact, if Vader runs a secret One Sith-style order, betrayal is even more unlikely.

And Vader, if he's gone completely over, will likely turn on Palpatine out of his own ambition and after recognizing that Palpatine's actions (immortality and the like) would result in the stagnation of the Sith Order as a whole.
It is not possible. The Jedi take in people to become part of the Order when they're really young, and spend decades trying to perfect their training. And Vader probably wouldn't be man enough to take down the Emperor, seeing how he regretted his decision to be Palpy's servant.

He was able to deflect his lightning in the same way as Yoda...I'd say that's pretty dang good.
True, but he still died after trashing part of the Death Star.

It is important to the debate because they are all individuals central to the debate. If you're gonna figure out which group defeats which, you gotta make an accurate assessment of each one. So far I'd say the assessment of Palpy has as usual been very off.
Palpy's assessment is based on what we know. Your assessments seem to be based on your theories, which causes your assessments to be off.

Lord of Hunger
08-13-2009, 08:03 PM
Rather than try to address every single thing you said (which I did attempt but after an hour I was only half-way and my browser crashed), I will address the main points:

1) Force Vampiries do not have to be Force Wounds. The Sith Assassins are Force Vampires as they draw upon the excess radiating energy of Force Sensitives, and as Kreia says have the potential to reach Nihilus level but have not done so yet. The nature of Force Vampiricy to manipulate or disrupt the connections of life and feed upon them. Force Wounds make this easier as Force Wound inherently disrupts connections.

2) The KOTOR Campaign Guide states that eventually Nihilus' power began to eat away at his body, so in order to live he ripped out his spirit and put it into his armor. The remaining flesh is merely what the armor surrounds, and is nothing but the leftovers of a corpse.

3) The decline of the Jedi Order is not evidenced by the amount of members who fell to the Dark Side, but by the policies and practices of the Order.

a) As a result of the Great Sith War, many of the Masters of the Order were slain and Ossus destroyed. A great deal of the advanced techniques were lost.

b) Personal freedoms were increasingly restricted in a falacious attempt to prevent members forming bonds and relationships and thus prevent them from falling to the Dark Side.

c) The Jedi Council granted itself and other Masters an accessive amount of authority and taught the lesser member to put blind faith in their "wisdom".

4) To address this comment:

The Jedi killed the Emperor, survived the Vong War, was reestablished, and was able to survive tons of anti-Jedi sentiment. The Jedi were also not blinded, but pre-occupied with the Clone Wars, Vong War, Second Civil War, etc. Pathetic? You have seriously flawed logic.
I was refering to the Old Jedi Order, not Luke's New Jedi Order. The latter was easily far superior to the Old as they were open to alternative teachings and ideologies, evolved through conflict, and allowed greater personal freedom.

5) If it is possible for Luke and Leia to avoid Palpatine's slow moving, uncontrolled Force Storms, I'm surprised that no one else has though of the possibility that the other individuals in the Dark Side Battle Royal wouldn't do the same.

6) Any attack of that magnitude and power level take time to charge, as demonstrated in many works of sci-fi and fantasy. Control means that manipulating and building up that level of power is somewhat easier to accomplish.

7) He seems expert enough to me. Your arguments, to me, have more holes than average. Just because you think the older Sith are better does not make it fact. You can like them, but that does not automatically make them more powerful than everyone else.
If you would bother to read the numerous articles on these subjects as I have (and yes, I have studied Palpatine's history, personality, and powers extensively and I have only known one person who knew more about him than I did - Redhawke), you would see that my arguments are not riddled with holes as you seem to wish. There is a lot of important information about the nature of the Jedi, the Sith, and the Force within TSL that you can learn if you listen to the dialog carefully, take all possibilities into account, and listen to Kreia without the assumption that everything she says is a lie. Just because she deceived you about how the Exile lost his/her connection to the Force does not mean that she lies about anything else to the Exile. For one thing, the Exile is her student, who she values more than her own life. And also, it is far easier to manipulate a person with the truth than with lies. Just because she manipulated the Exile from the start does not mean she had to lie any other times. If anything, she if one of the few people that's ever honest to the Exile, though she can be brutal about it.

Gob
08-13-2009, 09:03 PM
The ancient Sith were the most powerful overall- which is why it was called the Golden Age of the Sith. However, Sidious is still more powerful than any other Sith, at least from what we know. A direct quote from "Vader: The Ultimate Guide": "Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known." There's a quote from Leland Chee, who's the canon director: "Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history." Not entirely credible on its own, but considering all the other similar quotes, it's hard to ignore.

There's simply more evidence to show that Sidious is the most powerful Sith throughout the Star Wars timeline. It can be assumed that Yoda, the most powerful Jedi up to the point, did not have the means to defeat Sidious. Solidly rival him in raw Force power? Yes. But not defeat him. I'm not saying that Sidious would win the entire fight, but Traya and Nihilus wouldn't come close to defeating him. Nihilus could use his power, but since Sidious recovered such a vast and accumulated amount of knowledge, definitely more than the Sith 4,000 years before him, I don't see Nihilus being able to take Sidious down. And Traya dies before Sidious knows what he just killed.

*Continues my search in finding a life*

Lord of Hunger
08-14-2009, 12:42 AM
The ancient Sith were the most powerful overall- which is why it was called the Golden Age of the Sith. However, Sidious is still more powerful than any other Sith, at least from what we know. A direct quote from "Vader: The Ultimate Guide": "Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known." There's a quote from Leland Chee, who's the canon director: "Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history." Not entirely credible on its own, but considering all the other similar quotes, it's hard to ignore.
The problem is...who do they have in their lifetimes to compare to? They (Yoda and Vader) haven't actually experienced the power of the other Sith to be unbiased.
There's simply more evidence to show that Sidious is the most powerful Sith throughout the Star Wars timeline. It can be assumed that Yoda, the most powerful Jedi up to the point, did not have the means to defeat Sidious. Solidly rival him in raw Force power? Yes. But not defeat him. I'm not saying that Sidious would win the entire fight, but Traya and Nihilus wouldn't come close to defeating him. Nihilus could use his power, but since Sidious recovered such a vast and accumulated amount of knowledge, definitely more than the Sith 4,000 years before him, I don't see Nihilus being able to take Sidious down. And Traya dies before Sidious knows what he just killed.
Give me an example of something that Sidious has done that no one else has, aside from forming the Galactic Empire (which he did not by any means do on his own and merely assisted in its eventual formation). Force Powers? Nothing original. Kill almost every Jedi? Triumvirate did that? Immortality? Sion, Nihilus, and Andeddu got that down. Force Storm? Others have done it. Powerful apprentice? Nothing new yet again.

Fact is, Sidious did little more than copy the deeds of beings far greater than him. He convinced the Republic to become something it was already headed towards. Revan actually managed to convert people, alter loyalties and the like. Manipulate minds and perception? Darth Traya did that 4000 years before him.

And ultimately his deeds served to create a Jedi Order far greater than the first one. The Old Jedi Order would have never survived the Vong, but Luke and company did after taking out countless other enemies...including Palpatine's empire.

Ping
08-14-2009, 10:32 AM
@LoH: Palpatine was able to revive himself two or three times. I know that there are one or two others that have been revived, but Palpy was able to do it more than once, and in a solid body, too.

and listen to Kreia without the assumption that everything she says is a lie
Where did that come from? I've never assumed that. I've actually never had a reason to believe she was always lying. I'm simply stating the arguments and facts as I see them.

Also, what is it with you and this pathetic Jedi Order? They were by no means perfect, but I highly doubt that they were pathetic, blinded, etc., as you put it. Besides, they were just trying to stop the Dark Side from coming back. I certainly wouldn't want the Sith to returrn and wreak havoc. Their methods might not be the best, but at least it's effective.

Lord of Hunger
08-14-2009, 01:28 PM
Palpatine was able to revive himself two or three times. I know that there are one or two others that have been revived, but Palpy was able to do it more than once, and in a solid body, too.
It is true that he was able to jump to more than once, but each of those clones would age and decay rapidly. At best, he was delaying the inevitable, where as Sion could live as long as he had the desire to, Andeddu could animate corpses, and Nihilus would only be killed by either the Exile or by his own power eventually consuming him.
Where did that come from? I've never assumed that. I've actually never had a reason to believe she was always lying. I'm simply stating the arguments and facts as I see them.
My apologizes, I misinterpreted your views in this area.
Also, what is it with you and this pathetic Jedi Order? They were by no means perfect, but I highly doubt that they were pathetic, blinded, etc., as you put it. Besides, they were just trying to stop the Dark Side from coming back. I certainly wouldn't want the Sith to returrn and wreak havoc. Their methods might not be the best, but at least it's effective.
Because during and after the Great Sith War, there was little that made the Old Jedi different from the Sith. At least the Sith don't lie about their hatred but try to do something constructive (at least in their perception) with their hate. But the Jedi insist that they have some sort of ethical superiority to the Sith. If that was true, they would have fought in the Mandalorian Wars, no way to get around it.

Mockery: "Oh Master, the Mandalorians are committing massive genocide but I care not because they aren't Sith. Oh look! SITH! People in black carrying red lightsabers! Initiating assassination protocols!"

If anything, it is also because their interpretation of the Code is idiotic. Rather than confront and master their emotions, they bottle it up and pretend it doesn't exist until the last minute. They lack the strength to confront their own personal problems, let alone anyone else's.

The only Jedi I am okay with are the True/Ancient Jedi and Luke's New Order. The latter I especially like because its members are the masters of themselves, are open to alternative ideas, and have accomplished far more towards making a better Galaxy. A True Jedi does not avoid conflict, but at the same time does not initiate it.

Gob
08-14-2009, 05:01 PM
The problem is...who do they have in their lifetimes to compare to? They (Yoda and Vader) haven't actually experienced the power of the other Sith to be unbiased.

Those quotes weren't from Yoda and Vader's perspectives, because they're not novels. It was the author speaking.

Give me an example of something that Sidious has done that no one else has, aside from forming the Galactic Empire (which he did not by any means do on his own and merely assisted in its eventual formation). Force Powers? Nothing original. Kill almost every Jedi? Triumvirate did that? Immortality? Sion, Nihilus, and Andeddu got that down. Force Storm? Others have done it. Powerful apprentice? Nothing new yet again.

Name one other Sith that has been able to create a Force storm. Also, name one other Sith that has been described on multiple occasions to be "the most powerful Sith Lord in history."

Fact is, Sidious did little more than copy the deeds of beings far greater than him. He convinced the Republic to become something it was already headed towards. Revan actually managed to convert people, alter loyalties and the like. Manipulate minds and perception? Darth Traya did that 4000 years before him.

The Republic was "heading towards" the state of Empire because of Sidious. Darth Traya manipulated the Exile and Sion. Impressive. Sidious managed to manipulate the Republic so that he controlled it, as well as the CIS. Not a single Jedi managed to uncover what he was doing. Traya didn't even succeed in her plan.

And ultimately his deeds served to create a Jedi Order far greater than the first one. The Old Jedi Order would have never survived the Vong, but Luke and company did after taking out countless other enemies...including Palpatine's empire.

Of course the NJO was greater than the OJO. Yoda acknowledged that the Jedi would have to change to survive. The NJO didn't take out the Empire. That was Luke. If Luke didn't redeem Vader, Palpatine wouldn't have died, and the Empire would continue as it was.

Ping
08-14-2009, 05:12 PM
Mockery: "Oh Master, the Mandalorians are committing massive genocide but I care not because they aren't Sith. Oh look! SITH! People in black carrying red lightsabers! Initiating assassination protocols!"
I do believe that the Jedi realized that the Mandos were being manipulated, but they didn't realize it was the True Sith. Also, the reason the Jedi didn't fight the Mandos are actually plainly stated in both KOTOR games (more so in TSL). However, Revan seemed to leave planets undefended just to get more followers from the genocide/brutality that would result. I'm going to say that while the Jedi Order wasn't very wise in this (I think we can all agree that the Mandos would probably have wiped them out after the Republic), it seems to me that they comitted the lesser of two evils.

Lord of Hunger
08-15-2009, 04:58 AM
I do believe that the Jedi realized that the Mandos were being manipulated, but they didn't realize it was the True Sith. Also, the reason the Jedi didn't fight the Mandos are actually plainly stated in both KOTOR games (more so in TSL). However, Revan seemed to leave planets undefended just to get more followers from the genocide/brutality that would result. I'm going to say that while the Jedi Order wasn't very wise in this (I think we can all agree that the Mandos would probably have wiped them out after the Republic), it seems to me that they comitted the lesser of two evils.
Did you know that the Jedi Council deliberately silenced knowledge of the Genocide on Cathar from the rest of the Jedi? It was a deliberate attempt to prevent the opposition within the Order from getting a key reason to defy the Council. Ultimately, the whole thing was not about the well-being of the Galaxy but about preserving the power of the Masters over the Students.
Also, name one other Sith that has been described on multiple occasions to be "the most powerful Sith Lord in history."
That's what we call hyperbole. I could be described as the world's greatest storyline consultant on multiple occasions and while I wish it were true it doesn't make me such.

For 1,000 years the Galaxy hadn't faced a decent Sith Lord and I admit his knowledge and power was extensive. But it wasn't anything special or new. If anything, most of Yoda's awe at Palpatine was due to his own surprise at how much the Sith had changed tactics. The Jedi had been preparing to fight the Brotherhood of Darkness all over again, but instead they were faced with a completely different strategy.
The Republic was "heading towards" the state of Empire because of Sidious.
Incorrect, the sentiment of the Core Worlds was not in favor of the Republic and its ideals. They wanted nationalism and humanocentrism and core world supremacy and so on. The Separatists, meanwhile, were already very distrustful of the Jedi and the Republic. Sidious merely engineered one scenario to send them into conflict...one of many possibilities.
Darth Traya manipulated the Exile and Sion. Impressive. Sidious managed to manipulate the Republic so that he controlled it, as well as the CIS. Not a single Jedi managed to uncover what he was doing. Traya didn't even succeed in her plan.
There is a difference between manipulating someone to act against their normal behavior pattern or interests and manipulating a bunch of people to do what they were already head towards doing. The fact that the Jedi did not manage to uncover his plot is predictable. The Old Jedi Order is historical for its lack of awareness.

And as for Darth Traya not succeeding...think again. She had three goals:

1) Defeat the Jedi ideologically. This was a success as she showed how someone could live without the Force and that they were weak because they relied on it.

2) Create a Force Wound to destroy the Force. Barely failed as a result of her protege.

3) If 2 fails, make sure that the Last of the Jedi learn from the Exile how to live less dependent on the Force. Success, as the Exile's companions went on to rebuild the Order. We do see the movie era Old Jedi Order as having more training in real-life skills rather than its absolute dependence on the Force as shown in the KOTOR series.

She succeed in two/three goals. Pretty good, considering Palpatine merely wiped away a crumbling Jedi Order and decadent Republic and ended up giving rise to the infinitely superior New Jedi Order and many of the greatest heroes of the Galaxy. Kinda backfired, didn't it?

Gurges-Ahter
08-15-2009, 10:33 AM
Pretty good, considering Palpatine merely wiped away a crumbling Jedi Order and decadent Republic ...

You're going through this argument with blinders on. The only reason the Jedi Order was "crumbling" at all, if you can call it that, was because of Palpatine.

Gob
08-15-2009, 11:30 AM
That's what we call hyperbole. I could be described as the world's greatest storyline consultant on multiple occasions and while I wish it were true it doesn't make me such.

It wasn't hyperbole because it was purely objective, from the point of the author. Information from a C-canon source is considered canon, unless it conflicts with G-canon. No other Sith has feats that match Palpatine's. Bane has lightning that rivals his, but that's it. Nihilus could use an ability to suck the life out of planets, but at the cost of his own body and humanity. Sidious didn't want to make that sacrifice, because he knew the implications of the technique. Traya can use Force drain to kill some Jedi Masters, who aren't even as strong as the PT Jedi. Palpatine killed three PT Jedi, with Mace Windu attacking him as well. Sion can regenerate himself, but can be broken through words. Palpatine could create Force storms, which took the combined power of Luke, Leia, and Anakin Solo's potential to even throw off course.

For 1,000 years the Galaxy hadn't faced a decent Sith Lord and I admit his knowledge and power was extensive. But it wasn't anything special or new. If anything, most of Yoda's awe at Palpatine was due to his own surprise at how much the Sith had changed tactics. The Jedi had been preparing to fight the Brotherhood of Darkness all over again, but instead they were faced with a completely different strategy.

It says in the Dark Empire Sourcebook that Palpatine had gathered the greatest works of knowledge from even the most obscure sources, and studied the Force in all of its aspects.

It is true that Yoda was surprised at the evolution of the Sith, but he was also more powerful than any Jedi before him. He could match Palpatine in raw Force power, but could not defeat him.

Incorrect, the sentiment of the Core Worlds was not in favor of the Republic and its ideals. They wanted nationalism and humanocentrism and core world supremacy and so on. The Separatists, meanwhile, were already very distrustful of the Jedi and the Republic. Sidious merely engineered one scenario to send them into conflict...one of many possibilities.

As well as controlling the entire war. He manipulated a Jedi Master into ordering billions of clone troopers, which would later become stormtroopers. He managed to get into the position of power over the CIS, which he hadn't had control over before. He wasn't born into control over the two driving forces of the galaxy; he had to get there himself. And he did.

Darth_Yuthura
08-15-2009, 01:35 PM
No other Sith has feats that match Palpatine's. Bane has lightning that rivals his, but that's it. Nihilus could use an ability to suck the life out of planets, but at the cost of his own body and humanity. Sidious didn't want to make that sacrifice, because he knew the implications of the technique. Traya can use Force drain to kill some Jedi Masters, who aren't even as strong as the PT Jedi. Palpatine killed three PT Jedi, with Mace Windu attacking him as well. Sion can regenerate himself, but can be broken through words. Palpatine could create Force storms, which took the combined power of Luke, Leia, and Anakin Solo's potential to even throw off course.

Very scientific reasoning, considering that Palpatine had gone up against Darth Bane... wait he didn't? How would you know that?

Three masters that weren't as strong as the PT Jedi you say? I remember something that mentioned ancient Force-users actually were more powerful than those from the present. That actually inverses your logic.

Palpatine didn't go up against four Council members, he took on one Council member, one master, and two knights. I actually believe that due to the release issues, Master Vash was supposed to also be on Dantooine, but even three council members would have been more than Palpatine could handle. Given as he struggled against Windu, I would place my bets on Kreia. She killed three Council members with extreme ease, where Palpatine couldn't even beat Windu alone. (Yes there were three other Jedi, but they didn't aid Windu much)

Sion wasn't broken through words... he just wanted to die when he realized his life of pain wasn't worth living.

Nihilus actually became stronger as more powerful opponents got in his way. His hunger was his strength, so long as there were beings worth consuming. He would have died anyway, but not after being the last 'living' thing in the galaxy.

Lord of Hunger
08-15-2009, 02:21 PM
You're going through this argument with blinders on. The only reason the Jedi Order was "crumbling" at all, if you can call it that, was because of Palpatine.
Tell me, did you even READ my arguments at all? I'm afraid that it is you who are going through this argument with blinders on because if your read my argument you would know that the Jedi Order was decaying long before Palpatine was around.
It wasn't hyperbole because it was purely objective, from the point of the author. Information from a C-canon source is considered canon, unless it conflicts with G-canon.
Mockery: Oh Master, this guy is the most uber 1337 dude ever because someone SAYS so without providing consistent evidence against the new facts that say otherwise.

Hang onto the holy movies however much you want, doesn't change that a) the prequels are universally considered poorly made by anyone with good taste and b) there have been hundreds of new revelations about the Star Wars universe in general that make render this proclaimed superiority of Palpatine false.
No other Sith has feats that match Palpatine's. Bane has lightning that rivals his, but that's it.
Uh...thought bomb? Then again, that was Revan's technique to begin with....
Nihilus could use an ability to suck the life out of planets, but at the cost of his own body and humanity. Sidious didn't want to make that sacrifice, because he knew the implications of the technique.
Doesn't change the fact that Sidious would be nothing but a well-cooked steak to Nihilus.
Traya can use Force drain to kill some Jedi Masters, who aren't even as strong as the PT Jedi. Palpatine killed three PT Jedi, with Mace Windu attacking him as well.
Please, despite their flaws any Master of that time could have kicked Windu's ***. Especially Kavar, the great Weapon Master who could have lead the Jedi in the Mandalorian Wars. And I'd like to Palpy try and drain Vrook, given that guy's iron discipline.
Sion can regenerate himself, but can be broken through words.
Sion essentially was the closest thing to immortal: it was his decision alone to die that could kill him.
Palpatine could create Force storms, which took the combined power of Luke, Leia, and Anakin Solo's potential to even throw off course.
Again, the all-important Force Storms that HE CAN'T EVEN CONTROL. It's like saying that someone is awesome because they can wildly fire a gun in random directions.
It says in the Dark Empire Sourcebook that Palpatine had gathered the greatest works of knowledge from even the most obscure sources, and studied the Force in all of its aspects.
Lashowe could have taken the Sith Holocron of Tulak Hord and barely learned anything from it without even knowing it. Just because you have access to superior knowledge doesn't mean you'll fully understand it. Palpatine could have been granted all the holocrons of Malachor and he would never be able to learn Force Vampiricy without having a decent understanding of the Ancient Sith techniques themselves. That knowledge was limited to the Ancient/True Sith and a few select others.
It is true that Yoda was surprised at the evolution of the Sith, but he was also more powerful than any Jedi before him. He could match Palpatine in raw Force power, but could not defeat him.
And what is your evidence for Yoda being so powerful, hm?
As well as controlling the entire war. He manipulated a Jedi Master into ordering billions of clone troopers, which would later become stormtroopers. He managed to get into the position of power over the CIS, which he hadn't had control over before. He wasn't born into control over the two driving forces of the galaxy; he had to get there himself. And he did.
Convincing a whole bunch of weak-minded individuals and one Jedi Master to engage in a conflict the Galaxy is already heading towards. Yeah, great achievement in comparison to Revan, the guy who converted thousands to a completely different system of beliefs and not only nearly brought about the physical collapse of the Republic but also its spiritual collapse.

TKA-001
08-15-2009, 02:28 PM
Except the source I have cited, and even the all important arguments of George Lucas that the nature of the Dark Side is parasitism. It only makes sense that one of the greatest dark side Empires practiced that belief.
Why does what makes sense to you mean that that is canon? Your only basis for that is taking a statement form George Lucas out of context into an illogical conclusion.

Again, see my evidence.

You have no evidence. Your argument of the Ancient Sith all being "Force Vampires" can be likened to the old fan theory that Darth Nihilus was actually a result of the Jedi Exile's soul splitting in half and the dark side of it taking root in some Jedi's corpse at Malachor: A bunch of random details taken out of context and wrapped together into a conclusion that falls flat on its face.

Kreia: If you were to face an Ancient Sith Lord in combat you would find that we are as but children playing with toys.

And don't give me the whole "KREIA ALWAYS LIES!!!!1!" deal again...why would she lie about this.
I don't see why Kreia would lie. Another thing I don't see is how the hell Kreia would know anything about the power level of ancient Sith and Jedi relative to Sith and Jedi during the First Jedi Purge. Kreia certainly wasn't alive back then. How would she even be able to compare them?

In fact, it is apparent that the Jedi Order over time declined from what it was during the Great Hyperspace War as the Jedi Masters became increasingly arrogant and the Jedi in general became
Even if the exaggerated accusations you make about Jedi arrogance and Jedi evil are all true, they would not make them weaker in the Force or combat.

more dependent on the Force instead of real-life skills, thus actually decreasing their Force potential.
Oh. So I guess Anakin Skywalker's skill with machines and piloting vehicles, crime-investigation proficiency of the likes of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Jax Pavan, and the standard diplomacy skills that Jedi were so favored by the Republic government for don't count as "real-life" skills, then?

Meanwhile the Ancient Sith both had armies of Force Sensitive Massassi Warriors and Kissai priests to serve them.
I don't see much evidence of brilliant proficiency of the Massassi or above any other type of soldier (it might or might not be worth mentioning that they were all enslaved single-handedly by one Sith, Exar Kun), or of the Kissai above any other type of sufficiently-experience Force-user.

[Kreia] could not only hide her aura, but her presence too.
So what? So could Palpatine.

And she could remotely control memories, send telepathic messages across the Galaxy. Do Palpatine's abilities reach that far?
Actually, yes. Palpatine had telepathic connections to a number of (or all, not sure on how many) his Emperor's Hands, which he could use to issue orders, among other things. The most well-known example, of course, is Mara Jade. Palpatine also temporarily transferred his spirit into the body of Jeng Droga, another Emperor's Hand.

More like he [Sion] reattaches those body parts and then uses Force Crush on whoever did it.
That's ****ing stupid. I refuse to believe that that is possible. There is no actual evidence given in TSL for that, besides.

Because Bane was the very founder of Palpy's Order. Palpy's techniques were acquired either through Holocrons or the teachings of Darth Bane that were passed on and refined over time.
More handwaving. This does not actually explain your hypothesis at all. Furthermore, what special techniques did Palpatine use that he learned from before? More importantly, why does that make him any weaker?

Considering you had a Force Blackhole (Exile), some mortal (Mandalore), and his former apprentice (Visas), he had no reason to consume them immediately. If Palpatine was there instead, Nihilus' reaction would have been "FOODFOODFOODFOOD!!! OM NOM NOM NOM NOM NOM!!!"

Okay, I admit that was a bit silly but I think you get my point.
You can't know that for sure. I freely admit that it is possible that Nihilus' attention is more easily aroused by the presence of multiple powerful Force-users, but that is only conjecture. We have only one event known where Nihilus directs his drainage power toward an individual, and in that case, the Exile had to be standing within spitting distance of Nihilus before the Dark Lord even noticed her/his presence. Not enough of Nihilus has been seen in order to determine exactly how his power works.

Shooting him in the back would have done nothing. There was no flesh: he was a spirit, some robes, and armor. They would have singed his robe and right after would have been attacked.
If there was no flesh, then how do you explain Nihilus being killed by the Exile's lightsaber if there was no flesh to cut and no vital organs to sever?

What are these accomplishments you keep talking about? The Jedi Order at that time was PATHETIC, just as blinded by their own hubris
More exaggeration about how wimpy the Jedi Order supposedly was. Palpatine spend decades manipulating himself into becoming the head of state of the Republic by means which as far as everyone else knew was legitimate. He staged galactic crises and conflicts to solidify his power, evaded detection from the Jedi this whole time, turned one of the Jedi Order's most powerful Jedi into his apprentice... Why am I typing this paragraph? We both know Palpatine's achievements.

The Republic was already on its way to becoming like the Empire.
So what? It never would have gotten there if he hadn't declared the Empire himself. And while the Republic was corrupt by the time of The Phantom Menace, I think it is quite a stretch to say that it would have eventually turned out as bad as the Empire without Palpy's influence.

He was defeated by his half dead apprentice throwing him into a reactor core
So you're saying that the Ancient Sith Lords were immune to being thrown down neigh-bottomless pits.

then again by two junior Jedi Knights.
He was defeated because they cut off his connection to the dark side, not because they were superior to him in Force strength.

All the damage that was ever dealt to the Alliance was through Imperial Forces, not by him.
What's that supposed to mean? Should Palpatine be running around with his lightsaber charging at rebel installations and bases in the Outer Rim all the time?

Their [the four Jedi's] defeat was a JOKE.
Whether you like it or not, Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin, and Mace Windu have all been repeatedly cited as masters in their areas of lightsaber combat, and your argument that they are significantly weaker than previous generations of Jedi does not hold up.

So you think that the clones would have won the Battle of the Jedi Temple that quickly and easily without Anakin, or at all? Anakin managed to take down their greatest lightsaber duelist, who would have managed to rally a significant defense.
Granted, without Vader's help in killing key Jedi Masters, the fight would have been more difficult, but it only would have meant some heavier clone trooper casualties, and to a galaxy-spanning Empire, the lives of a few thousands clone troopers are nothing. As we see in Attack of the Clones, even large groups of Force users can be brought down if you spam them with foot soldiers enough. Besides, even if they did defeat the entire infantry force sent at the temple, the Republic army would just use a Star Destroyer to level the temple from low orbit. Given the resources at the Republic's disposal, there was no possible way to lose Operation Knightfall unless they gave up.

Then why didn't he just stick with Dooku, a far more refined individual?
Because Palpatine loves power. He wants the most powerful Empire, the most powerful personal strength in the Force, and therefore the most powerful apprentice available.

The Galactic Empire was actually more decentralized than the Galactic Republic. Systems were grouped in sectors and sectors in turn into oversectors. These were controlled by the Moffs and Grand Moffs, who exercised power in the disparate regions of the galaxy. This was in contrast to the structure of the Galactic Republic, which placed senators in control of their respective sectors.

The Imperial Ruling Council was the name given to the group of Imperial Advisors who constituted the most powerful collective body in the galaxy during the New Order. While Palpatine was Emperor, it was the Council that managed the Empire and carried out his will. After his death, it became the effective central government of the Empire.
Wookieepedia says that the Empire was more decentralized, so it was. That statement isn't sourced. More to the point, how is the above information indicative of decentralized power?

Yeah, that is so whity. If you are trying to make me feel like somehow my arguments are poorly constructed and you are an expert on this field, you are not succeeding.
My apologies. Our debate would be more enjoyable without my using provocative language.

They were already researching even more powerful weapons. I sincerely doubt that the Death Star I was the only one that they would have built. To quote one man: "The Emperor had little of anything built only once."
Hair-splitting. There's no way that a superweapon arms race would start within the Empire without the Emperor's knowledge.

YET. What happens when the equally overhyped Thrawn combines Imperial Forces with the tech and resources of the Chiss Ascendancy? How long does Palpatine last against a strategist like that with such an army?
Why would such a situation arise in the first place? Thrawn didn't have any plans to overthrow the Emperor. His allegiance is to the Empire, and therefore the ruler of the Empire, and therefore Palpatine. The only reason he tried to take control during the Thrawn Trilogy was because there was no Emperor.

He was able to deflect his lightning in the same way as Yoda...I'd say that's pretty dang good.
The apprentice's "fight" with Palpatine was a brief trading of Force-related attacks until Palpatine ended up getting stunned. The Emperor was obviously bull****ting the apprentice about how weak he supposedly was. Even in the game's alternate ending, the apprentice is no match for the Emperor.

Give me an example of something that Sidious has done that no one else has, aside from forming the Galactic Empire (which he did not by any means do on his own and merely assisted in its eventual formation).
Again, this idea that the Empire would have formed on its own is simply a theory based on exaggerated accusations of Galactic Republic corruption.

Kill almost every Jedi? Triumvirate did that?
No other Sith has killed master Jedi swordsman in less time than it takes to blow one's nose.

Immortality? Sion, Nihilus, and Andeddu got that down.
I thought Sion was invincible. Incidentally, since we've apparently established that Sion can instantly reattach his severed limbs back onto his body, what would happen if you blasted him with a Star Destroyer's heavy guns? As for Nihilus, since he died from being killed and was in danger of starving to death anyway... No, he wasn't immortal.

Force Storm? Others have done it.
Who?

Revan actually managed to convert people, alter loyalties and the like. Manipulate minds and perception? Darth Traya did that 4000 years before him.
Palpatine did all of those things just as well. Why does the fact that he isn't the first or only person to do these things make it less impressive?

Did you know that the Jedi Council deliberately silenced knowledge of the Genocide on Cathar from the rest of the Jedi? It was a deliberate attempt to prevent the opposition within the Order from getting a key reason to defy the Council. Ultimately, the whole thing was not about the well-being of the Galaxy but about preserving the power of the Masters over the Students.
A less-than-clean aim, to be sure (indeed, the first thing the KotOR-era Jedi do that I agree seems low for them), but I believe that in this case, preserving the "power" of the Jedi Masters over their brash, younger ranks like Revan and Malak would have served a greater good by preventing or stalling their rebellion. That said, I would sincerely appreciate it if we could all keep the matter of First Jedi Order morality or lack thereof out of this debate, because I've already debated it exhaustively with Lord of Hunger and would prefer not to return to previously-trodden ground.

Traya can use Force drain to kill some Jedi Masters, who aren't even as strong as the PT Jedi.
To be fair, I don't see much reason to believe the Jedi Civil War-era Jedi were weaker than those of later eras.

Palpatine didn't go up against four Council members, he took on one Council member, one master, and two knights.
Nevertheless, all four have been described, portrayed, and demonstrated as being highly proficient swordsman among the best the Jedi Order had.

I remember something that mentioned ancient Force-users actually were more powerful than those from the present. That actually inverses your logic.
"Somebody says that somewhere in-universe and it is compatible with my side of the debate, so it is indisputable that it must be true."

where Palpatine couldn't even beat Windu alone. (Yes there were three other Jedi, but they didn't aid Windu much)
What you're saying is that because Windu was capable of kicking Palpatine in the face, causing his lightsaber to fly out the window and knocking him to the floor, then Palpatine was definitively incapable of besting Windu in single combat. Not only does that mean that Yoda is considerably weaker than Windu (which is bogus), but it also means that one's skill with a lightsaber and knowledge and proficiency with the Force is dependent on one's ability to suddenly lift one's boot and thrust it forward.

He would have died anyway, but not after being the last 'living' thing in the galaxy.
That is extremely unlikely, considering that a galaxy is a very big place, and Nihilus can only be in one place at a time. He would have starved to death before killing off even a fraction of the galaxy's population.

Uh...thought bomb? Then again, that was Revan's technique to begin with....
Revan did not invent the thought bomb; It predated him and was likely "invented" by the Ancient Sith. More to the point, a Thought Bomb is no stronger than a Force storm and requires a lot more than just one Sith Lord to utilize.

Doesn't change the fact that Sidious would be nothing but a well-cooked steak to Nihilus.
Possibly, but only if Nihilus is capable of perceiving the Emperor soon enough and getting within range... Neither of which we have enough information about to draw a definite conclusion about.

Palpatine could have been granted all the holocrons of Malachor and he would never be able to learn Force Vampiricy without having a decent understanding of the Ancient Sith techniques themselves. That knowledge was limited to the Ancient/True Sith and a few select others.
So Palpatine was mentally incapable of understanding these Ancient techniques? Why? Furthermore, what proof do you have that he was incapable?

Again, the all-important Force Storms that HE CAN'T EVEN CONTROL.
Dark Empire series says he can partially control them, and he lost control of them only when his connection to the dark side was cut off by Skywalker and his sister. Besides, what powers on that scale can be fully controlled?

Yeah, great achievement in comparison to Revan, the guy who converted thousands to a completely different system of beliefs
Revan did the mass-conversion by corrupting the Jedi in the wars and then pushing them over the edge with Malachor. Any master manipulator could have done that, provided they know about Force wounds (and given Revan seems to have known about them without anyone telling him, I don't see why Palpatine couldn't).

only nearly brought about the physical collapse of the Republic but also its spiritual collapse.
What is this spiritual collapse which you speak of? And what sources can you cite in regards to how the Republic was practically already the Empire before Palpatine stepped in?

Please, despite their flaws any Master of that time could have kicked Windu's ***. Especially Kavar, the great Weapon Master who could have lead the Jedi in the Mandalorian Wars.
You can't say that with any definitiveness because we have no idea how skilled Kavar is other than that he's considered a highly-skilled Weaponmaster, which is far too vague to draw a conclusion from.

Hang onto the holy movies however much you want, doesn't change that a) the prequels are universally considered poorly made by anyone with good taste
Not only does that have no bearing on this discussion, it's also (among other things) an extremely bigoted statement to make, which can only serve to make the discussion needlessly heated.

you would know that the Jedi Order was decaying long before Palpatine was around.
The supposed moral decay of the Jedi is irrelevant to this discussion, because moral decay does not equal power decay.

Darth_Yuthura
08-15-2009, 03:20 PM
I don't see why Kreia would lie. Another thing I don't see is how the hell Kreia would know anything about the power level of ancient Sith and Jedi relative to Sith and Jedi during the First Jedi Purge. Kreia certainly wasn't alive back then. How would she even be able to compare them?

I think that she could read history and wonder how ancient masters could perform certain tasks that she couldn't. It's far more likely she would be telling the truth about being impitent than if she were bragging.


So what? So could Palpatine.

No, I think it was meant that Kreia could make herself invisible. Palpatine was like a Purloined letter.


You can't know that for sure. I freely admit that it is possible that Nihilus' attention is more easily aroused by the presence of multiple powerful Force-users, but that is only conjecture. We have only one event known where Nihilus directs his drainage power toward an individual, and in that case, the Exile had to be standing within spitting distance of Nihilus before the Dark Lord even noticed her/his presence. Not enough of Nihilus has been seen in order to determine exactly how his power works.

Katarr. Master Zhar... Master Vandar... and a lot of other Jedi. I only wish Atris were there as well.



Whether you like it or not, Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin, and Mace Windu have all been repeatedly cited as masters in their areas of lightsaber combat, and your argument that they are significantly weaker than previous generations of Jedi does not hold up.

Maybe, but Windu clearly was the more powerful of the two. Had he had help from one of the other Jedi in order to beat Palpatine, then maybe this holds water; but the other three were cut down early. Had they fought one-on-one to start, Mace wouldn't have suffered any disadvantages by fighting alone.


Granted, without Vader's help in killing key Jedi Masters, the fight would have been more difficult, but it only would have meant some heavier clone trooper casualties, and to a galaxy-spanning Empire, the lives of a few thousands clone troopers are nothing. As we see in Attack of the Clones, even large groups of Force users can be brought down if you spam them with foot soldiers enough. Besides, even if they did defeat the entire infantry force sent at the temple, the Republic army would just use a Star Destroyer to level the temple from low orbit. Given the resources at the Republic's disposal, there was no possible way to lose Operation Knightfall unless they gave up.

If Anakin had simply not selfishly killed Windu, Order 66 wouldn't have been given and the original trilogy wouldn't have happened.

Anyway, the troops that stormed the Temple were trained exceptionally well and they could have carried out the operation without Anakin.


Hair-splitting. There's no way that a superweapon arms race would start within the Empire without the Emperor's knowledge.

The Maw installation comes to mind.


The apprentice's "fight" with Palpatine was a brief trading of Force-related attacks until Palpatine ended up getting stunned. The Emperor was obviously bull****ting the apprentice about how weak he supposedly was. Even in the game's alternate ending, the apprentice is no match for the Emperor.


Oh is this that self-fulfilling argument again? Palpatine wasn't defeated by Windu because he was letting himself almost be killed so that Anakin would save him. He just thought it would be great to toy around with Starkiller and almost let himself get killed again. Is that what you're saying?


No other Sith has killed master Jedi swordsman in less time than it takes to blow one's nose.


That's not Palpatine's style. He would not engage those Master swordsman if he could just as easily wipe them out with the Force. Clearly he resorted to a lightsaber because that was his only way of defeating those Jedi.


What you're saying is that because Windu was capable of kicking Palpatine in the face, causing his lightsaber to fly out the window and knocking him to the floor, then Palpatine was definitively incapable of besting Windu in single combat. Not only does that mean that Yoda is considerably weaker than Windu (which is bogus), but it also means that one's skill with a lightsaber and knowledge and proficiency with the Force is dependent on one's ability to suddenly lift one's boot and thrust it forward.

No, it was because Windu could not only defend himself against, but redirect Palpatine's lightning against him. Yoda, Starkiller, and Windu could all do that.

Gob
08-15-2009, 03:48 PM
Very scientific reasoning, considering that Palpatine had gone up against Darth Bane... wait he didn't? How would you know that?

Except those quotes saying that Palpatine was the most powerful Sith in history. Darth Bane wasn't powerful enough to extract himself from history, unfortunately.

Three masters that weren't as strong as the PT Jedi you say? I remember something that mentioned ancient Force-users actually were more powerful than those from the present. That actually inverses your logic.

George Lucas has said that the Jedi in the PT are in their prime, in terms of combat.

Palpatine didn't go up against four Council members, he took on one Council member, one master, and two knights.

No. Take a look at the Jedi Council. Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, and Saesee Tiin were all Jedi Masters on the Council.

I actually believe that due to the release issues, Master Vash was supposed to also be on Dantooine, but even three council members would have been more than Palpatine could handle. Given as he struggled against Windu, I would place my bets on Kreia. She killed three Council members with extreme ease, where Palpatine couldn't even beat Windu alone. (Yes there were three other Jedi, but they didn't aid Windu much)

Sidious lost in a lightsaber fight to Mace Windu, who had Shatterpoint and created the deadliest form of lightsaber combat, which had an edge over dark-siders. So that makes him a wimp? And the three Jedi didn't aid Windu much because Palpatine killed them within seconds.

Nihilus actually became stronger as more powerful opponents got in his way. His hunger was his strength, so long as there were beings worth consuming. He would have died anyway, but not after being the last 'living' thing in the galaxy.

His hunger consumed him, and made him a mindless monster. He was a slave to his own abilities.

Mockery: Oh Master, this guy is the most uber 1337 dude ever because someone SAYS so without providing consistent evidence against the new facts that say otherwise.

What facts? Just because the ancient Sith were stronger than the old Sith, doesn't mean that the new Sith are weaker than the ancient Sith. You could probably attribute the degradation to the extinction of the Sith race, but after that, the Sith started to evolve via Bane.

Hang onto the holy movies however much you want, doesn't change that a) the prequels are universally considered poorly made by anyone with good taste and b) there have been hundreds of new revelations about the Star Wars universe in general that make render this proclaimed superiority of Palpatine false.

PT movies, sucky or not, are still G-canon. G-canon overrules everything else.

Uh...thought bomb? Then again, that was Revan's technique to begin with....

And it required several Sith to use. You can't use it alone.

Please, despite their flaws any Master of that time could have kicked Windu's ***. Especially Kavar, the great Weapon Master who could have lead the Jedi in the Mandalorian Wars. And I'd like to Palpy try and drain Vrook, given that guy's iron discipline.

Prequel Jedi = Jedi prime in combat. Lucas said it in the TPM commentary, IIRC.

Again, the all-important Force Storms that HE CAN'T EVEN CONTROL. It's like saying that someone is awesome because they can wildly fire a gun in random directions.

He can't fully control them, but they're not rampant upon creation. Like I said, it took Luke, Leia, and Anakin Solo's raw power to throw it off course. And the fact that Sidious had the power to even create a Force storm dwarfs any other feat.

Lashowe could have taken the Sith Holocron of Tulak Hord and barely learned anything from it without even knowing it. Just because you have access to superior knowledge doesn't mean you'll fully understand it. Palpatine could have been granted all the holocrons of Malachor and he would never be able to learn Force Vampiricy without having a decent understanding of the Ancient Sith techniques themselves. That knowledge was limited to the Ancient/True Sith and a few select others.

Bane learned of the thought bomb from a Revan holocron. The Dark Empire Sourcebook quote is that he knew the most. Knowledge is knowledge.

And what is your evidence for Yoda being so powerful, hm?

A quote from the RotS novel: "The truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known..."

Other than that, his feats of Force surpass any given Jedi before him. If there are any demonstrations of power that match Yoda's, I can't name any.

Convincing a whole bunch of weak-minded individuals and one Jedi Master to engage in a conflict the Galaxy is already heading towards. Yeah, great achievement in comparison to Revan, the guy who converted thousands to a completely different system of beliefs and not only nearly brought about the physical collapse of the Republic but also its spiritual collapse.

Using your own logic, the OJO was already flawed enough that turning Jedi wouldn't have been that hard. Sidious didn't turn Jedi because he saw them as threats, and he didn't need that. The only one he wanted to be succeeded by would be his apprentice.

Lord of Hunger
08-15-2009, 05:39 PM
Why does what makes sense to you mean that that is canon? Your only basis for that is taking a statement form George Lucas out of context into an illogical conclusion.
And what, pray tell, is so illogical about it?
You have no evidence. Your argument of the Ancient Sith all being "Force Vampires" can be likened to the old fan theory that Darth Nihilus was actually a result of the Jedi Exile's soul splitting in half and the dark side of it taking root in some Jedi's corpse at Malachor: A bunch of random details taken out of context and wrapped together into a conclusion that falls flat on its face.
Watch the YouTube video I posted. That is the evidence right there, coupled with George Lucas' and in-universe statements about the nature of the Dark Side. Whether or not the Dark Side is an actual part of the Force or rather the evil within the universe that perverts the Force and warps it into a malicious entity is a different issue, but one I am also happy to debate (as it is a slightly modified view I have of the Unifying Force and Potentium theories).
I don't see why Kreia would lie. Another thing I don't see is how the hell Kreia would know anything about the power level of ancient Sith and Jedi relative to Sith and Jedi during the First Jedi Purge. Kreia certainly wasn't alive back then. How would she even be able to compare them?
She extensively studied at the Coruscant Temple and Trayus Academy. Unlike Palpatine she is a historian and is far better trained to study the Ancient Sith.
Even if the exaggerated accusations you make about Jedi arrogance and Jedi evil are all true, they would not make them weaker in the Force or combat.
Actually it does. The strength of Jedi and Sith is in their respective moral Force entities (Light and Dark Side). When the Jedi move towards the Dark Side they loose the integrity of their Light Side abilities and it takes a long time for someone who has studied the Light Side to adjust the Dark Side and visa versa. The fact that alignment affects ease with alignment based abilities is not just a game mechanic.

The Jedi thoroughly embraced a deep hatred of the Sith and their own arrogance, causing their abilities to weaken over time. Coupled with how many techniques were lost with the deaths of the Great Sith War era Masters and the Ossus Libraries, the Jedi Order has been in a steady decline. By seeking out other Force Sensitive Orders and embracing alternative ideas, the members of the NJO restored much of the lost knowledge of the Force.
Oh. So I guess Anakin Skywalker's skill with machines and piloting vehicles, crime-investigation proficiency of the likes of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Jax Pavan, and the standard diplomacy skills that Jedi were so favored by the Republic government for don't count as "real-life" skills, then?
This was thanks to the Jedi Exile and the teachings of Kreia. That, and Anakin was just naturally good with machines. But the other forms of decline still remained.
I don't see much evidence of brilliant proficiency of the Massassi or above any other type of soldier (it might or might not be worth mentioning that they were all enslaved single-handedly by one Sith, Exar Kun), or of the Kissai above any other type of sufficiently-experience Force-user.
It's more of the fact that the Sith species was naturally Force Sensitive, if only a little. If coupled with Force Vampiricy, the Ancient Sith Lords could feed upon the excess radiating energies of their armies to fuel such abilities as Battle Mediation without a sweat. Such are the Ancient Sith too be feared, and fortunately for the people of TOR era, most of the Sith of that time are normal people recruited by the last few True Sith.
So what? So could Palpatine.
No, I think it was meant that Kreia could make herself invisible. Palpatine was like a Purloined letter.
QTF :D
Actually, yes. Palpatine had telepathic connections to a number of (or all, not sure on how many) his Emperor's Hands, which he could use to issue orders, among other things. The most well-known example, of course, is Mara Jade. Palpatine also temporarily transferred his spirit into the body of Jeng Droga, another Emperor's Hand.
Point conceded.
That's ****ing stupid. I refuse to believe that that is possible. There is no actual evidence given in TSL for that, besides.
Think Force Zombie.
More handwaving. This does not actually explain your hypothesis at all. Furthermore, what special techniques did Palpatine use that he learned from before? More importantly, why does that make him any weaker?
I bring it up because Bane is Palpatine's oldest predicessor in that Order. Palpatine would be slightly greater due to the amount of other techniques learned, but it would be a tough match, and other teammates could move in to finish Palpy off.
You can't know that for sure. I freely admit that it is possible that Nihilus' attention is more easily aroused by the presence of multiple powerful Force-users, but that is only conjecture. We have only one event known where Nihilus directs his drainage power toward an individual, and in that case, the Exile had to be standing within spitting distance of Nihilus before the Dark Lord even noticed her/his presence. Not enough of Nihilus has been seen in order to determine exactly how his power works.
Again, the Exile is a Force Blackhole in relation to Nihilus. She is more intriguing than appetizing. She in fact is also a mirror to Nihilus, so he would have probably preferred to study her if possible. However, provocation and built up hunger eventually got the best of him.
If there was no flesh, then how do you explain Nihilus being killed by the Exile's lightsaber if there was no flesh to cut and no vital organs to sever?
The armor. A lightsaber can damage the structural integrity of the armor, causing it to be destroyed and thus Nihilus' spirit released.
More exaggeration about how wimpy the Jedi Order supposedly was. Palpatine spend decades manipulating himself into becoming the head of state of the Republic by means which as far as everyone else knew was legitimate. He staged galactic crises and conflicts to solidify his power, evaded detection from the Jedi this whole time, turned one of the Jedi Order's most powerful Jedi into his apprentice... Why am I typing this paragraph? We both know Palpatine's achievements.
Exaggerated achievements. For one thing, TFU unfortunately made it worse by harping upon that era when it was explored enough. They had to make yet another "uber 1337" Force User when Starkiller isn't really that great. The game mechanics make Palpatine look more powerful than he is. There is also more footage of Palpatine than there is of the Ancient Sith or the Triumvirate, but while it makes Palpy look more powerful and badass, a critical eye can see it is all hype.
So what? It never would have gotten there if he hadn't declared the Empire himself. And while the Republic was corrupt by the time of The Phantom Menace, I think it is quite a stretch to say that it would have eventually turned out as bad as the Empire without Palpy's influence.
If it wasn't Palpatine it would have been someone else.
So you're saying that the Ancient Sith Lords were immune to being thrown down neigh-bottomless pits.
Probably. The Ancient Sith were indeed geniuses to have invented Sith Sorcery. I doubt they would have let hubris get the best of them THAT easily.
He was defeated because they cut off his connection to the dark side, not because they were superior to him in Force strength.
It would have taken a lot of strength to disrupt such a connection.
What's that supposed to mean? Should Palpatine be running around with his lightsaber charging at rebel installations and bases in the Outer Rim all the time?
Yes. Don't trust your inferiors to mess up for you. Do your own bloody work. Revan and Malak for example were often on the front lines. Sion killed his opponents himself.
Whether you like it or not, Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin, and Mace Windu have all been repeatedly cited as masters in their areas of lightsaber combat, and your argument that they are significantly weaker than previous generations of Jedi does not hold up.
As Darth_Yuthura has pointed out, they are nothing special.
Granted, without Vader's help in killing key Jedi Masters, the fight would have been more difficult, but it only would have meant some heavier clone trooper casualties, and to a galaxy-spanning Empire, the lives of a few thousands clone troopers are nothing. As we see in Attack of the Clones, even large groups of Force users can be brought down if you spam them with foot soldiers enough. Besides, even if they did defeat the entire infantry force sent at the temple, the Republic army would just use a Star Destroyer to level the temple from low orbit. Given the resources at the Republic's disposal, there was no possible way to lose Operation Knightfall unless they gave up.
Do you think that they would have just stayed there if they didn't have to fight Anakin? They would have more likely taken over one of those Star Destroyers you mentioned.
Because Palpatine loves power. He wants the most powerful Empire, the most powerful personal strength in the Force, and therefore the most powerful apprentice available.
As his love of power made him pride, thus more susceptible to backstabbing and the like. Nihilus had no pride, only hunger. Sion had no pride, only pain. Traya had little pride, only a desire to destroy ideologies. Revan? I doubt it as the guy was a strategist...which makes him inherently cool headed. Malak? Yes, just like Palpatine. Bane? A little. The Ancient Sith? Balanced by their cunning.
Wookieepedia says that the Empire was more decentralized, so it was. That statement isn't sourced. More to the point, how is the above information indicative of decentralized power?
Because there was little more than fragile loyalty to Palpatine that kept the Empire together. Each Moff had his own little kingdom and other Moff with their kingdoms to contend with. And they are all very ambitious individuals.
My apologies. Our debate would be more enjoyable without my using provocative language.
Indeed. :thmbup1:
Hair-splitting. There's no way that a superweapon arms race would start within the Empire without the Emperor's knowledge.
As DY said, Maw Installation?
Why would such a situation arise in the first place? Thrawn didn't have any plans to overthrow the Emperor. His allegiance is to the Empire, and therefore the ruler of the Empire, and therefore Palpatine. The only reason he tried to take control during the Thrawn Trilogy was because there was no Emperor.
Give the guy time and he'll get to the top of the Admirality chain. Then whatever ambition he has will take over, as well as the desire to triumph over someone he admires. He will also desire to remove the restrictions on non-humans. They guy is not a sap.
The apprentice's "fight" with Palpatine was a brief trading of Force-related attacks until Palpatine ended up getting stunned. The Emperor was obviously bull****ting the apprentice about how weak he supposedly was. Even in the game's alternate ending, the apprentice is no match for the Emperor.
See DY's argument. It is mine too here as well.
Again, this idea that the Empire would have formed on its own is simply a theory based on exaggerated accusations of Galactic Republic corruption.
It is impossible to exaggerate the Republic's corruption. :D
No other Sith has killed master Jedi swordsman in less time than it takes to blow one's nose.
Nihilus slaughtered a planet of Force Sensitives with mere words.
I thought Sion was invincible. Incidentally, since we've apparently established that Sion can instantly reattach his severed limbs back onto his body, what would happen if you blasted him with a Star Destroyer's heavy guns?
That's a possibility, but I doubt he would wait for it to happen. Especially since like with the Harbinger his Assassins would have already killed anyone on that SD.
As for Nihilus, since he died from being killed and was in danger of starving to death anyway... No, he wasn't immortal.
Pretty damn close though.
Who?
What, you think he invented that technique?
Palpatine did all of those things just as well. Why does the fact that he isn't the first or only person to do these things make it less impressive?
Uh no. Palpatine played on existing loyalites, not forging new ones.
A less-than-clean aim, to be sure (indeed, the first thing the KotOR-era Jedi do that I agree seems low for them), but I believe that in this case, preserving the "power" of the Jedi Masters over their brash, younger ranks like Revan and Malak would have served a greater good by preventing or stalling their rebellion. That said, I would sincerely appreciate it if we could all keep the matter of First Jedi Order morality or lack thereof out of this debate, because I've already debated it exhaustively with Lord of Hunger and would prefer not to return to previously-trodden ground.
...
To be fair, I don't see much reason to believe the Jedi Civil War-era Jedi were weaker than those of later eras.
Again, many higher techniques were lost with the Great Sith War Masters and Ossus.
So Palpatine was mentally incapable of understanding these Ancient techniques? Why? Furthermore, what proof do you have that he was incapable?
For one thing, the resources are increasingly rare over time. Traya, Sion, and Nihilus could do it because they had Malachor, its facilities intact.
Revan did the mass-conversion by corrupting the Jedi in the wars and then pushing them over the edge with Malachor. Any master manipulator could have done that, provided they know about Force wounds (and given Revan seems to have known about them without anyone telling him, I don't see why Palpatine couldn't).
Then why didn't Palpatine do so, hmmmm? There were plenty of wounds from the Clone Wars and Galactic Civil War to work with.
What is this spiritual collapse which you speak of? And what sources can you cite in regards to how the Republic was practically already the Empire before Palpatine stepped in?
I am not going to repeat myself yet again...sorry. :thmbup1:

Darth_Yuthura
08-15-2009, 11:10 PM
George Lucas has said that the Jedi in the PT are in their prime, in terms of combat.

Wrong context. He explicitly explained why Vader and Luke fighting were not as impressive as the pre trilogy being it was a cripple, a youth, and an old man in the original trilogy vs. Jedi who were at their prime.


Sidious lost in a lightsaber fight to Mace Windu, who had Shatterpoint and created the deadliest form of lightsaber combat, which had an edge over dark-siders. So that makes him a wimp? And the three Jedi didn't aid Windu much because Palpatine killed them within seconds.

That's right and then Mace beat Palpatine's ass with his own Force lightning.


What facts? Just because the ancient Sith were stronger than the old Sith, doesn't mean that the new Sith are weaker than the ancient Sith. You could probably attribute the degradation to the extinction of the Sith race, but after that, the Sith started to evolve via Bane.

Until Palpatine stepped in and violated the code by killing his master before surpassing him and then dropping everything of the rule of two in his unquenchable lust for power. That was what brought about his demise.

I would be more inclined to say Darth Plagueous was the peak of the Sith and that Palpatine never reached his level, let alone exceeded him.


Prequel Jedi = Jedi prime in combat. Lucas said it in the TPM commentary, IIRC.

That argument = wrong context.


Bane learned of the thought bomb from a Revan holocron. The Dark Empire Sourcebook quote is that he knew the most. Knowledge is knowledge.


Yeah, but it's not like Bane learned everything that Revan knew from that holocron. Did Revan put everything he knew on that holocron?

A quote from the RotS novel: "The truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known..."

Other than that, his feats of Force surpass any given Jedi before him. If there are any demonstrations of power that match Yoda's, I can't name any.

Exar Kunn. Revan. Anakin. Bane. These are all guesses, but take into consideration that your conclusion is about as solid as these, who've beaten Sidious or were regarded so highly in what they were capable of.

Windu can at least take credit for kicking Palpatine's ass one-on-one. Marek, who also eliminated Vader as well, proved his might against Palpatine.

TKA-001
08-16-2009, 11:13 AM
And what, pray tell, is so illogical about it?
Can you perhaps summarize this theory in as few words as possible, like in one paragraph or something? I'm having trouble piecing it together from all of these posts.

Exaggerated achievements. For one thing, TFU unfortunately made it worse by harping upon that era when it was explored enough. They had to make yet another "uber 1337" Force User when Starkiller isn't really that great. The game mechanics make Palpatine look more powerful than he is. There is also more footage of Palpatine than there is of the Ancient Sith or the Triumvirate, but while it makes Palpy look more powerful and badass, a critical eye can see it is all hype.
What happens in The Force Unleashed is as fully canon as anything else, whether you like it or not.

"Game mechanics make Palpatine look more powerful"? I really don't know what you're referring to. More to the point, your statement that "a critical eye can see it is all hype" is really just a cover for the fact that you don't actually have anything to base your argument on, so you fall back on the insistence that you only need a "critical eye" to see it... Whatever it is, since you can't actually explain it.

When the Jedi move towards the Dark Side they loose the integrity of their Light Side abilities and it takes a long time for someone who has studied the Light Side to adjust the Dark Side and visa versa. The fact that alignment affects ease with alignment based abilities is not just a game mechanic.
Conjecture, conjecture, conjecture, based on a game mechanic which is not just a game mechanic because you say so.

The armor. A lightsaber can damage the structural integrity of the armor, causing it to be destroyed and thus Nihilus' spirit released.
...so what happened? Did the Exile's lightsaber hit a "vital organ" part of the armor? Did the armor totally disintegrate? If it broke apart, why would Nihilus' soul (or whatever) be released instead of staying in the pieces? If the armor disintegrated totally, wouldn't that kill his spirit?

Coupled with how many techniques were lost with the deaths of the Great Sith War era Masters and the Ossus Libraries
...techniques which you either cannot name or cannot prove were ever lost in the first place.

Katarr. Master Zhar... Master Vandar... and a lot of other Jedi.
Katarr was the case of Nihilus against an entire planet's worth of Force-sensitives, which is not close to the sort of situation which is supposedly the focus of this thread.

I only wish Atris were there as well.
Whatever.

If Anakin had simply not selfishly killed Windu, Order 66 wouldn't have been given and the original trilogy wouldn't have happened.
So you buy the idea that Palpatine was totally helpless against Mace even though he went ape**** on him with lightning as soon as he was distracted? Do you propose that Palpatine was physically incapable of blasting Mace with more lightning as he raised his lightsaber until Anakin cut his hand off?

The Maw installation comes to mind.
A secret weapon research facility a superweapon-fueled civil war does not make.

Oh is this that self-fulfilling argument again? Palpatine wasn't defeated by Windu because he was letting himself almost be killed so that Anakin would save him. He just thought it would be great to toy around with Starkiller and almost let himself get killed again. Is that what you're saying?
What I'm saying is that there is no reason to believe Palpatine was in any serious danger from Vader's former apprentice. And yes, there is indeed a good chance that Palpatine threw the fight with Mace (though that he threw the fight with the apprentice is obvious).

That's not Palpatine's style. He would not engage those Master swordsman if he could just as easily wipe them out with the Force. Clearly he resorted to a lightsaber because that was his only way of defeating those Jedi.
...and your evidence for this is... What? Name a Jedi or Sith who does not fight other Jedi and Sith with a lightsaber.

No, it was because Windu could not only defend himself against, but redirect Palpatine's lightning against him. Yoda, Starkiller, and Windu could all do that.
Not that it did them any good (though I don't remember any point at which Vader's apprentice redirected Palpatine's lightning back at him, in the game or in the novel).

What, you think he invented that technique?
Nobody? I thought not. I don't see any reason to believe he didn't, since he wrote a freaking book about it, and of course, he's the only one who has ever used it. Feel free to name someone else who has conjured Force storms of the kind Palpatine used.

Uh no. Palpatine played on existing loyalites, not forging new ones.
So Anakin was loyal to Palpatine before he started building trust for ten years? The clone army was loyal to him before he had it created? The Republic was loyal to him before he worked his way to the office of the Supreme Chancellor? Almost the entire Senate cheered him on when he declared the Empire solely because they were all corrupt bastards who wanted an Empire, instead of because they wanted a well-liked, "honest", great leader to rally around? (If the Republic was so horrible, why did anyone want to form an Alliance to Restore the Republic?) The military was loyal to the Emperor before Palpatine became Emperor?

Yes. Don't trust your inferiors to mess up for you. Do your own bloody work. Revan and Malak for example were often on the front lines. Sion killed his opponents himself.
And why is doing everything yourself so admirable when it really doesn't make a difference who does it? Besides, Palpatine has better things to do than waste time leading troops against insurrections and rebellions when there is no need to dirty his own hands; If any event is big enough to catch his notice, then he will deal with it behind the scenes. For one thing, he has to keep up the publicity of being the sick old man who is being increasingly isolated from the Empire (one of the reasons he did this was to prevent the Empire's atrocities from being connected to him personally, rather than his underlings). For another, if he wasted his time publicly running the Empire on its day-to-day businesses (a menial task which he assigned to Grand Vizier Sate Pestage and the Ruling Council), he wouldn't have time to expand his dark side knowledge and the like.

As Darth_Yuthura has pointed out, they are nothing special.
...by saying so, ignoring what is stated and demonstrated in-universe. Kit Fisto almost beat General Grievous in a duel, for example.

They would have more likely taken over one of those Star Destroyers you mentioned.
..how, exactly? The Jedi Temple doesn't have a fleet protecting it. How would they be able to board a Star Destroyer in the first place if they're already under siege from the ground and the air? Incidentally, the Episode III Video Game actually did have several Venator-class Star Destroyers circling the Temple during the attack, along with Gunships practically carpet-bombing the area.

It is impossible to exaggerate the Republic's corruption.
Give me some sources and examples, or don't bother. :) You can't just tell me that Core World supremacy and anti-alien racism was rampant throughout the Republic and everyone was corrupt. You have to actually show me that the Republic would turn into an Empire on its own.

If it wasn't Palpatine it would have been someone else.
Like who? Name a person. Name a source. Name something, name anything that is actually based in canon instead of speculation.

Because there was little more than fragile loyalty to Palpatine that kept the Empire together. Each Moff had his own little kingdom and other Moff with their kingdoms to contend with. And they are all very ambitious individuals.
And the evidence you have for this "fragile loyalty" being the "only thing" keeping the Empire together is what? Furthermore, why does people in positions of power being ambitious mean that most or all of them will want to kill the Emperor (the common soldiers of the military are indoctrinated to be fanatically loyal to the Emperor [Visual Dictionary])? And if this "inevitable anarchy civil war" stuff is true, why did it never even begin to happen until after Palpatine was dead? (It might also be worth mentioning that most of the Empire fell back into line almost immediately after he returned ten years after Yavin.)

Give the guy time and he'll get to the top of the Admirality chain.
Thrawn was actually at the top of the Admirality chain before Endor and he had no plans of killing the Emperor.

That's a possibility, but I doubt he would wait for it to happen. Especially since like with the Harbinger his Assassins would have already killed anyone on that SD.
You are dodging the question. What would happen if Sion was hit by a capital ship's heavy turbolasers?

I am not going to repeat myself yet again...sorry.
In other words... No, you don't have any sources.

Again, many higher techniques were lost with the Great Sith War Masters and Ossus.
Such as... And don't tell me that techniques were lost just because they're only seen in one source. If you can only theorize that they were lost, instead of prove it, then don't bother.

Then why didn't Palpatine do so, hmmmm? There were plenty of wounds from the Clone Wars and Galactic Civil War to work with.
Why did he need to? He didn't want an army of Dark Jedi like Revan wanted; A technological army to secure the dark side utopia he eventually wanted to create (Dark Empire sourcebook) was all that he needed.

Wrong context. He explicitly explained why Vader and Luke fighting were not as impressive as the pre trilogy being it was a cripple, a youth, and an old man in the original trilogy vs. Jedi who were at their prime.
That's not how Lucas explained "superior" swordsmanship and power. It's how he explained the fights being more spectacular from the perspective of one viewing the movie. Furthermore, George Lucas' word is not canon. What he does and places explicitly into the canon is canon. Nothing else. If Lucas said that Darth Vader's lightsaber in Episode VI was blue instead of red without releasing a newer edition or whatever, would he be right?

That's right and then Mace beat Palpatine's ass with his own Force lightning.
Mace Windu's strength was visibly being worn down by the Chancellor's lightning barrage, and Palpatine's being so weak that he needs Anakin or else the evil Jedi will murder him was obviously a ruse. Then there's the possibility that he threw the fight with Mace.

Until Palpatine stepped in and violated the code by killing his master before surpassing him and then dropping everything of the rule of two in his unquenchable lust for power. That was what brought about his demise.
First of all, there is no canonical reason whatsoever to suggest that Sidious did not surpass his master by the time he murdered him in his sleep. It's entirely possible that he was stronger or whatever. Second, what "code" are you talking about? How was it a "violation" for Sidious to kill Darth Plagueis at whatever time he chose to?

I would be more inclined to say Darth Plagueous was the peak of the Sith and that Palpatine never reached his level, let alone exceeded him.
...not that you have any actual evidence for this, since our canonical knowledge of Plagueis' actual abilities and strengths is minimal.

Marek, who also eliminated Vader as well, proved his might against Palpatine.
"Proved his might?" He Force-pushed the Emperor a few times and then got his ass blown up by Palpatine's bitch-slap lightning. He never stood a chance.

Darth_Yuthura
08-16-2009, 03:07 PM
So you buy the idea that Palpatine was totally helpless against Mace even though he went ape**** on him with lightning as soon as he was distracted? Do you propose that Palpatine was physically incapable of blasting Mace with more lightning as he raised his lightsaber until Anakin cut his hand off?

Yes. No.

Palpatine could have continued blasting Mace, but why would he have wanted to? If you didn't plunge your hand into boiling water, did that mean you weren't capable of doing it? Palpatine obviously stopped blasting Mace because Mace was turning it back on him. Only when Mace lost his lightsaber did he start blasting him again.


A secret weapon research facility a superweapon-fueled civil war does not make.

???

Do you mean a secret superweapon facility that built the Sun Crusher?



What I'm saying is that there is no reason to believe Palpatine was in any serious danger from Vader's former apprentice. And yes, there is indeed a good chance that Palpatine threw the fight with Mace (though that he threw the fight with the apprentice is obvious).

I don't see the logic, so please explain. Don't say it's clear because that implies you're obviously right with or without any reason.

And to explain why I don't see it as obvious, there is flawed logic in both cases. First is that Skywalker wasn't present until at the very end of the fight. As Skywalker wasn't even expected to be there when the fight broke out, Palpatine had no motive to let himself be defeated. If he were present before it started, then that argument might stand.

There also was a lot of reason to assume he was in danger from Starkiller. Before Kota stopped him, the Emperor was just one lightsaber stroke away from death. The Emperor was beaten by a better opponent.


...and your evidence for this is... What? Name a Jedi or Sith who does not fight other Jedi and Sith with a lightsaber.


Kreia.


Not that it did them any good (though I don't remember any point at which Vader's apprentice redirected Palpatine's lightning back at him, in the game or in the novel).

Play the game. I can't speak for the novel, but the apprentice did redirect the lightning back with the saber in the game. Then he did it without a saber in the cutscene. The only reason that he died was because his intent wasn't to beat Palpatine, but to keep the senators from being killed.


That's not how Lucas explained "superior" swordsmanship and power. It's how he explained the fights being more spectacular from the perspective of one viewing the movie. Furthermore, George Lucas' word is not canon. What he does and places explicitly into the canon is canon. Nothing else. If Lucas said that Darth Vader's lightsaber in Episode VI was blue instead of red without releasing a newer edition or whatever, would he be right?


Are you talking about the same thing? I suppose that you do prove a point that nothing Lucas says in an interview is cannon, so his quote 'Jedi in their Prime' doesn't mean the PT Jedi were the most powerful ever.

Mace Windu's strength was visibly being worn down by the Chancellor's lightning barrage, and Palpatine's being so weak that he needs Anakin or else the evil Jedi will murder him was obviously a ruse. Then there's the possibility that he threw the fight with Mace.

Again the use of the word 'obvious.' I could just as easily say that Palpatine obviously wasn't able to beat Windu, which was why he would have died if Anakin didn't attack Mace.

First of all, there is no canonical reason whatsoever to suggest that Sidious did not surpass his master by the time he murdered him in his sleep. It's entirely possible that he was stronger or whatever. Second, what "code" are you talking about? How was it a "violation" for Sidious to kill Darth Plagueis at whatever time he chose to?

Yes there is. Palpatine figured out how to clone himself after death. He was powerful, but there were many shortfalls in which his master could have accomplished to a greater degree. Anakin was supposed to be the 'perfect Jedi' in which was supposed to replace Palpatine as his apprentice. Palpatine could never pull off something like that, considering how much effort he went to for Luke after Vader was crippled.


...not that you have any actual evidence for this, since our canonical knowledge of Plagueis' actual abilities and strengths is minimal.

You're right. Minimal evidence. Palpatine never reached the extent to which he could replicate the supposed-abilities that Plagueis achieved in his lifetime. His cloning technique did save him when Plagueis was killed altogether, but he could never perform the kind of feat as creating a 'perfect' Force-entity as Anakin.


"Proved his might?" He Force-pushed the Emperor a few times and then got his ass blown up by Palpatine's bitch-slap lightning. He never stood a chance.

That's a joke right? Starkiller beat the Emperor and nearly executed him, but that stupid Kota interfered. In so doing, the situation became unstable and Starkiller sacrificed himself to ensure the Senators could escape. The 'blowing up' part was Starkiller's doing.

Gob
08-16-2009, 05:04 PM
Yes. No.

Palpatine could have continued blasting Mace, but why would he have wanted to? If you didn't plunge your hand into boiling water, did that mean you weren't capable of doing it? Palpatine obviously stopped blasting Mace because Mace was turning it back on him. Only when Mace lost his lightsaber did he start blasting him again.

Palpatine's power was being fueled by his own pain, so he could go as long as he wanted. He stopped blasting Mace to look helpless in front of Anakin.

I don't see the logic, so please explain. Don't say it's clear because that implies you're obviously right with or without any reason.

And to explain why I don't see it as obvious, there is flawed logic in both cases. First is that Skywalker wasn't present until at the very end of the fight. As Skywalker wasn't even expected to be there when the fight broke out, Palpatine had no motive to let himself be defeated. If he were present before it started, then that argument might stand.

There also was a lot of reason to assume he was in danger from Starkiller. Before Kota stopped him, the Emperor was just one lightsaber stroke away from death. The Emperor was beaten by a better opponent.

No. He threw the fight against Marek in order to get him to turn back to the dark side. It's highly probable that Galen Marek's full potential would be stronger than Palpatine, but in TFU, he wasn't. You can see this when Galen is absorbing Palpatine's lightning. In order to even hold Palpatine off, he had to release all of his Force energy, which killed him. And that only pushed Palpatine away for a moment.

However, you are right that Sidious probably didn't throw the fight against Mace. He did stop going all out once Anakin showed up, though.

Kreia.

Your argument seems to be that Palpatine's skill with a lightsaber is greater than his skill with the Force. If this was true, he would've lost to Yoda, who is obviously Mace's superior in the Force. And Kreia has done absolutely nothing to prove her skill with a lightsaber. I'm not saying she's a total weakling, but the only thing she has going for her is her Force drain, which isn't necessarily unstoppable.

Are you talking about the same thing? I suppose that you do prove a point that nothing Lucas says in an interview is cannon, so his quote 'Jedi in their Prime' doesn't mean the PT Jedi were the most powerful ever.

Actually, is word is canon, unless it conflicts with the movie. At that point, I'm not sure. But if he says that the PT Jedi are the strongest, then it's canon, since it doesn't say otherwise in the movies.

Again the use of the word 'obvious.' I could just as easily say that Palpatine obviously wasn't able to beat Windu, which was why he would have died if Anakin didn't attack Mace.

Do you have proof of this? Mace was barely holding back Palpatine's lightning. He was using his Vaapad to channel the lightning back at Palpatine, and since Vaapad is a Force-fed form, his defense may have very well be broken. This is speculation, but so was your statement.

Yes there is. Palpatine figured out how to clone himself after death. He was powerful, but there were many shortfalls in which his master could have accomplished to a greater degree. Anakin was supposed to be the 'perfect Jedi' in which was supposed to replace Palpatine as his apprentice. Palpatine could never pull off something like that, considering how much effort he went to for Luke after Vader was crippled.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Palpatine could never pull off training Anakin? Or Palpatine could never pull off being the perfect Jedi?

You're right. Minimal evidence. Palpatine never reached the extent to which he could replicate the supposed-abilities that Plagueis achieved in his lifetime. His cloning technique did save him when Plagueis was killed altogether, but he could never perform the kind of feat as creating a 'perfect' Force-entity as Anakin.

There's no proof that Plagueis created Anakin. It's possible, but there's nothing to confirm it. Palpatine didn't continue pursuing the creation of life, as far as I know.

That's a joke right? Starkiller beat the Emperor and nearly executed him, but that stupid Kota interfered. In so doing, the situation became unstable and Starkiller sacrificed himself to ensure the Senators could escape. The 'blowing up' part was Starkiller's doing.

Yes, it was Starkiller releasing all of his Force energy at once. It resulted in his own death, and didn't do any serious damage to Palpatine. If he had the ability to just overpower Palpatine without killing himself, he would have. But he didn't. Self-sacrifice was the only way out of the situation.

Giant Graffiti
08-16-2009, 05:23 PM
Kreia.
Huh? :confused:

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/4954/trayaduel.jpg

Darth_Yuthura
08-16-2009, 06:30 PM
Huh? :confused:


Yeah, she killed three masters just with the wave of her hand.

Palpatine's power was being fueled by his own pain, so he could go as long as he wanted. He stopped blasting Mace to look helpless in front of Anakin.

Or Mace genuinely was killing Palpatine. His Force power may have been intensifying, but his flesh wasn't enduring so well.


No. He threw the fight against Marek in order to get him to turn back to the dark side. It's highly probable that Galen Marek's full potential would be stronger than Palpatine, but in TFU, he wasn't. You can see this when Galen is absorbing Palpatine's lightning. In order to even hold Palpatine off, he had to release all of his Force energy, which killed him. And that only pushed Palpatine away for a moment.

Correction: Marek beat his ass and would have killed Palpatine if Koto hadn't intervened. Then Palpatine took advantage of his mercy and put him in an unexpected predicament. Had Marek stuck down Palpatine, he would have eliminated the Sith once and for all.

However, you are right that Sidious probably didn't throw the fight against Mace. He did stop going all out once Anakin showed up, though.

Once his lightsaber was gone. Anakin showed up just as he was left defenseless, so it could be one way or another, pending on what you believe.


Actually, is word is canon, unless it conflicts with the movie. At that point, I'm not sure. But if he says that the PT Jedi are the strongest, then it's canon, since it doesn't say otherwise in the movies.

Alright, I would accept that. So if you would ask Mr. Lucas that question specifically so he could answer it directly, I will accept his answer. Since he hadn't said that PT were the strongest of all Jedi and all Sith of all time, then it's not canon. And even if it were, why would the next generation of Jedi and Sith be less powerful than the generation before it?


Do you have proof of this? Mace was barely holding back Palpatine's lightning. He was using his Vaapad to channel the lightning back at Palpatine, and since Vaapad is a Force-fed form, his defense may have very well be broken. This is speculation, but so was your statement.

The proof was that Palpatine was vulnerable and Mace would have killed him if not for Anakin. Mace was in a lot better condition being exhausted than Palpatine was almost being dead... until Anakin stepped in. All that the 'Emperor threw the fight' can never be more than speculation.


I'm not sure what you're saying here. Palpatine could never pull off training Anakin? Or Palpatine could never pull off being the perfect Jedi?

If Palpatine wanted a servant to replace Vader so greatly, then why didn't he just create one instead of investing all those resources into scouring the galaxy for Luke?


Yes, it was Starkiller releasing all of his Force energy at once. It resulted in his own death, and didn't do any serious damage to Palpatine. If he had the ability to just overpower Palpatine without killing himself, he would have. But he didn't. Self-sacrifice was the only way out of the situation.

Well don't forget that Starkiller had the Emperor at his mercy and very well could have disposed of him. Killing him would have been the more favorable way out, but that was lost when Palpatine went for Kota and the Senators.

------

And let's not lose perspective on this topic.

An F-22 can simultaneously engage five F-15's and still expect victory, but that doesn't exactly mean that it's better than those five fighters. An F-22 certainly cannot engage 20 Mig-29's, but those five F-15's could. They likely wouldn't be able to wipe them all out, but they would do better fighting at a four to one disadvantage than an F-22 going twenty to one.

Just because a character could beat another doesn't exactly mean they are better in all other regards. Malak betrayed his master, but he was certainly an imp compared to Revan's power and knowledge. Windu could wipe out Palpatine, but I wouldn't say he could do all the warmongering of which he did.

Ping
08-16-2009, 08:35 PM
Yeah, she killed three masters just with the wave of her hand.

I think what he meant was someone who never, ever used a lightsaber.

Lord of Hunger
08-17-2009, 06:50 PM
While I personally don't feel like having to clarify and explain every single aspect of the Star Wars universe in order to continue this debate, I would like to clarify that Palpatine is not the first user of Force Storm or inventor or anything like that:

Force Storm

Force Storm was a Force lightning variant. The user would raise his palm upward and would create, through the Force, an explosion of electrical energy directed at all foes in the vicinity. It was used by both the Sith and Dark Jedi during the Jedi Civil War. It also appeared as a tornado of energy which created a great disturbance in the Force. Jedi could also join together to create a Force storm, though its use was frowned upon by more orthodox Jedi.

Unlike the Force lightning, Force Storm was not limited to attacking enemies in one direction, as it affected all foes within a certain radius from the user. Revan and the Jedi Exile may have mastered this particular power. Darth Bane and Darth Sidious were also notable users of this power; Bane being able to call upon a nearly uncontrollable Force Storm shortly after having been taught the basics of Force Lightning by Githany, who herself had only learnt the power the same day from Qordis.

I am not going to bother verifying the accuracy of this statement or any more of my pieces of evidence as none of the Palpatine-supporters have bothered to verify their evidence which DY repeatedly showed was either inaccurate or taken out of context. While I shall observe this thread and counter blatantly inaccurate statements I have little interest in having clarify every single little detail. Good day, sirs.

Ping
08-17-2009, 09:22 PM
I seem to remember that Force Storm in KOTOR was just an upgraded lightning. It could be game mechanics. The Force Storm Palpy used is lightning on steroids. You could call it the Force Storm.

Gob
08-18-2009, 04:40 PM
Or Mace genuinely was killing Palpatine. His Force power may have been intensifying, but his flesh wasn't enduring so well.

Palpatine's face wasn't being melted. It was actually the mask he had created using the Force to hide his corrupted face. When the lightning hit him, the melting of the artificial face damaged his real face even further, causing his inhuman appearance.

Correction: Marek beat his ass and would have killed Palpatine if Koto hadn't intervened. Then Palpatine took advantage of his mercy and put him in an unexpected predicament. Had Marek stuck down Palpatine, he would have eliminated the Sith once and for all.

Palpatine was probably holding back because he knew that Marek's potential exceeded his. Even if he wasn't holding back, he didn't even have his lightsaber during the fight. Also, Marek couldn't beat Palpatine in a pure Force fight.

Alright, I would accept that. So if you would ask Mr. Lucas that question specifically so he could answer it directly, I will accept his answer. Since he hadn't said that PT were the strongest of all Jedi and all Sith of all time, then it's not canon. And even if it were, why would the next generation of Jedi and Sith be less powerful than the generation before it?

The quote about the PT being the strongest was actually in AotC, during the Geonosis battle. And he was talking about lightsaber combat. The reason for the NJO being weaker than the PT Jedi was because they had to start anew, with a huge amount of knowledge lost.

If Palpatine wanted a servant to replace Vader so greatly, then why didn't he just create one instead of investing all those resources into scouring the galaxy for Luke?

This is likely because if he created a new apprentice, he would still have Luke to worry about. If he could track down Luke to kill him, why wouldn't he just make Luke his new apprentice instead?

While I personally don't feel like having to clarify and explain every single aspect of the Star Wars universe in order to continue this debate, I would like to clarify that Palpatine is not the first user of Force Storm or inventor or anything like that:



I am not going to bother verifying the accuracy of this statement or any more of my pieces of evidence as none of the Palpatine-supporters have bothered to verify their evidence which DY repeatedly showed was either inaccurate or taken out of context. While I shall observe this thread and counter blatantly inaccurate statements I have little interest in having clarify every single little detail. Good day, sirs.

That's a different kind of Force storm. You're thinking of the move from KotOR. I'm talking about Palpatine's ability to create wormholes in space that could destroy entire fleets.

Lord of Hunger
08-18-2009, 04:56 PM
That's a different kind of Force storm. You're thinking of the move from KotOR. I'm talking about Palpatine's ability to create wormholes in space that could destroy entire fleets.
I seem to remember that Force Storm in KOTOR was just an upgraded lightning. It could be game mechanics. The Force Storm Palpy used is lightning on steroids. You could call it the Force Storm.
It's the same ability, Palpy just used it in such a way that it was X10000000000000 bigger and more devastating, yet pointlessly overpowered and uncontrollable. At least Nihilus' apocalypse ability actually had a purpose and some level of control: it gave him energy and prolonged his existence. It was also insidiously more subtle in that it actually targeted people through the Force rather than an easily avoidable physical attack. Palpatine's Force Storm lacked any subtly, could be disrupted by others disrupting his Dark Side connection, could be avoided, and wasted large amounts of energy and caused pointless amounts of destruction. It is likely that the only reason why Palpatine's "Force Storm" is so trumpeted as such a big deal is because of the size. A very good Force ability usually is a smaller effect that causes its damage indirectly and is unnoticeable until it is too late. For a Sith that is supposed to be skilled at deception and manipulation, Palpatine used an ability that was uncharacteristic of his nature and only served to kill him yet again. I believe the term for this is EPIC FAILURE.

RedHawke
08-19-2009, 11:31 AM
*Pokes head in...*

Just an FYI here, but Create Force Storms is not remotely related to Force Lightning or the Lightning Storm in KotOR, and any source stating such is in direct contradiction to the source material for the power, the Dark Empire Comics.

The actual graphics from the comic have it appearing as a cloud-shaped phenomena, so it is also not a worm-hole or other such nonsense.

Again just FYI. ;)

TKA-001
08-24-2009, 03:56 PM
Kreia.
No, I'm pretty sure that her use of Force Drain on the Jedi Masters wasn't really a fight. Sort of like how a gunman going up to somebody and shooting him isn't really a fight. But if you pay extremely close attention to the confrontation at the game's end, you will find that Kreia does indeed use a lightsaber to fight you.

As Skywalker wasn't even expected to be there when the fight broke out, Palpatine had no motive to let himself be defeated.
Like Palpatine couldn't sense Anakin's approach and had no idea what he was going to do once he was disarmed... What do you think he means when he talks about Forseeing things all the time?

Then he did it [redirect the lightning] without a saber in the cutscene. The only reason that he died was because his intent wasn't to beat Palpatine, but to keep the senators from being killed.
Wrong. The apprentice did no redirection of any sort when Palpatine stopped playing dead. The Emperor spammed him with lightning and he just took it until it was over. The cutscene does not show him blasting any back at him, only standing in front of it with his arms out in front of him. The game implies and the novel confirms that the lightning was putting him under enough pain to make him want to pass out, so he clearly was not absorbing it anywhere close to the level that Yoda, Dooku, or Sidious could do it, if he was at all. The novel makes no mention of him actually using the Force to absorb it, so it's likely that he was just standing in the energy's path. And the energy explosion that happens when the apprentice dies isn't really his doing, because it's more or less of the same nature as the energy bursts which Palpatine and the Jedi in TFU died.

There also was a lot of reason to assume he was in danger from Starkiller. Before Kota stopped him, the Emperor was just one lightsaber stroke away from death. The Emperor was beaten by a better opponent.
Again, like Palpatine couldn't have just continued to defend himself with lightning.

Again the use of the word 'obvious.' I could just as easily say that Palpatine obviously wasn't able to beat Windu, which was why he would have died if Anakin didn't attack Mace.
I say it is obvious because it is obvious if you bother to actually use your brain by taking Palpatine's personality, style of doing things, the implications made by the course of events, the fact that Palpatine was disarmed immediately before Anakin entered the room, and the fact that Palpatine was used to seeing the future into account, it actually might make a lick of sense. The same applies to the scene with the Emperor and Vader's apprentice.

Starkiller beat the Emperor and nearly executed him,
Force pushing someone a few times (game) and throwing some debris at him (novel) a defeat does not make.

and very well could have disposed of him. Killing him would have been the more favorable way out, but that was lost when Palpatine went for Kota and the Senators.
but that stupid Kota interfered.
(Tangent) If there is any one thing that I truly detest about your style of argument (other than your tendency to pull "facts" out of thin air), it's your habit of throwing insults at your favorite bash characters at every single opportunity, instead of focusing your energy on making sense.

It's the same ability,
Just LOOK at it.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/d/df/Battle_of_Pinnacle_Base.jpg
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/8/81/BZZZZZZ.jpg

You're telling me that the former is just a bigger version of the latter. That's crazy. Downright freaking crazy. I don't see a single bolt of lightning in the first picture.

A Force storm is not a really big Force lightning bananza. It's a hyperspace wormhole which is directed by the user, which has two known functions: The most obvious one is the destruction of fleets of starships, and the second appears to be teleportation. The Emperor uses a Force storm to transport Luke Skywalker from the surface of Coruscant to an Imperial Dungeon ship in Dark Empire I. So the Force Storm does have more than one use.

EDIT: I initially thought that you simply didn't know/had forgotten what the Dark Empire Force storms are, but looking back back at your post, I saw that you had actually quoted Gob's post, which correctly stated that Palpatine's Force storms were not related to the lightning power, and simply flat-out denied it instead of explaining how it might have been in error.

At least Nihilus' apocalypse ability actually had a purpose and some level of control: it gave him energy and prolonged his existence.
Yeah, I'm sure living like Nihilus is something to be envied.

It was also insidiously more subtle in that it actually targeted people through the Force rather than an easily avoidable physical attack.
How is any weapon or technique which obliterates all life on a planet subtle? And may I ask how it is easy to avoid something of sufficient size and speed to destroy a fleet of starships?

Palpatine's Force Storm lacked any subtly
So what? It's not supposed to be subtle. It's supposed to blow **** up. Criticizing a weapon that's supposed to blow **** up for not being subtle makes about as much sense as criticizing stormtroopers for shooting people - It's what they're ****ing supposed to do.

could be disrupted by others disrupting his Dark Side connection
"It has a weakness, much like everything else in existence, and therefore it sucks and is basically useless."

and wasted large amounts of energy
Evidence that it wastes large amounts of energy?

and caused pointless amounts of destruction.
That's sort of what a weapon of mass destruction is for, you know... And since when is destroying an enemy fleet pointless? It could be used to wipe out a hostile group of ships without risking a single ship of your own.

It is likely that the only reason why Palpatine's "Force Storm" is so trumpeted as such a big deal is because of the size. A very good Force ability usually is a smaller effect that causes its damage indirectly and is unnoticeable until it is too late.
So there is a much smaller Force power which could also destroy a fleet in minutes? I wonder what this is and why I've never heard of it before.

Jkmc
09-12-2009, 10:59 PM
To bring this back on topic, Team 1 would win. How? Kreia would simply prattle on and on... and on... and on... and on... until all the other teams committed suicide by sticking their swords or sabers in themselves.

Visas
11-03-2009, 10:22 AM
Team 2 for me.

SirBoomstick91
11-03-2009, 11:21 AM
Umm... Team 2? Maybe out of favouritism, maybe it isn't but I voted for team 2.