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Jae Onasi
06-15-2009, 11:03 AM
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,526321,00.html
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/06/15/iran.elections.protests/index.html

Because of the extreme unrest over possible voter fraud in the latest presidential election in which Ahmadinejad was re-elected with a 2-to-1 victory in spite of massive turnout for Moussavi, the Ayatollah has ordered an investigation into the election to look for fraud.

I find it highly unlikely that Ahmadinejad won, particularly with that much of a margin.

Bimmerman
06-15-2009, 03:23 PM
Here's hoping that the probe discovers something good. If MA was re-elected legally and fairly that's one thing, but to win by cheating the people isn't. That said, massive turnout for the other guy does not mean he won.

Totenkopf
06-15-2009, 04:42 PM
Given that the Ayatollah and other religious leaders appear to be in Achy's corner, I doubt the investigation, if it takes place, will change anything. Even if I were wrong, a name may change, but the song will pretty much remain the same.

Rake
06-15-2009, 06:13 PM
Given that the Ayatollah and other religious leaders appear to be in Achy's corner, I doubt the investigation, if it takes place, will change anything. Even if I were wrong, a name may change, but the song will pretty much remain the same.

You keep saying this yet, there is a huge difference between moderates and hard-liners. Like I said in another thread its akin to Gorbachev and Brezhnev, even though its the same regime, a moderate candidate is usually a gateway to a brighter future.

mur'phon
06-15-2009, 06:18 PM
You mean like Khatami?:p
While I agree that moderates are better than hardliners, sayin they are "usually the gateway to a brighter future"is hardly correct, especially in Iran

JediAthos
06-15-2009, 11:43 PM
speaking of world leaders who scare the crap out of me(just came from the North Korea thread)...that guy Ahmadinejad is almost as insane as Kim Jong Il.

Darth Avlectus
06-16-2009, 12:04 AM
Well...I tell ya what, the intensity of the outrage and outcry over this is intensifying by the day. I have a hard time believing, that the opponent's home town overwhelmingly voted for Ajmadenajad.

So far as the situation changing, I cannot say for sure. Probably not significantly on the near term. Hard to say in the long term. Though I am inclined to believe a moderate president will change little if anything as it is. Hard nosed as Iran is, somehow I think a moderate president will just mean more subtlety in the country's dealings. Especially if the country is behind him--which appears the case.

From a tactical standpoint: consider anyone no less a threat until they have proven otherwise.

Small steps will occur anyway to be sure. However:
You mean like Khatami?:p
While I agree that moderates are better than hardliners, sayin they are "usually the gateway to a brighter future"is hardly correct, especially in Iran

Master of understatement. ;)

Totenkopf
06-16-2009, 12:08 AM
You keep saying this yet, there is a huge difference between moderates and hard-liners. Like I said in another thread its akin to Gorbachev and Brezhnev, even though its the same regime, a moderate candidate is usually a gateway to a brighter future.

Well, if you mean that the Ayatollahs will fall from power, great. That would be progress. But it's not remotely the same thing. The 2 guys running for president were nothing more than pawns of the religious dictatorship that runs Iran. All talk about moderates is basically empty in the face of that fact. Now, if the theocracy is deposed and a real "moderate" emerged, then that might actually mean something. Till then, I'm not holding my breath waiting for a "moderate" to be the mask for the Ayatollahs.

urluckyday
06-16-2009, 01:31 AM
I remember telling my friend the night we saw the story telling that it was the day of elections and we'll find out the results tomorrow..."I bet there's gonna be some sort of fraud and the guy will stay in office..."

Suprise!

The Ayatollah calls the shots and pulls the strings again...

Astor
06-16-2009, 04:13 AM
Iran's Guardian Council (sounds like something off of Star Trek) has said it's prepared to hold a recount in light of the recent violence.

Story. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/8102400.stm)

Miltiades
06-16-2009, 07:07 AM
I wonder if it'll change anything. If the Ayatollah pulls the strings, he can easily influence the election himself. The investigation and the recount could just be a facade.

I do agree that the massive turnout wasn't and isn't a certainty for Mousavi to win the election. Ahmadinejad can still be the victor, though the amount of votes he got is a bit unbelievable. In any case, if Ahmadinejad did win the elections by a big majority, then the country looks like it has problems, because the opponents seem to be many, and the division between pro and against could lead to a confrontation.

Jae Onasi
06-16-2009, 04:52 PM
speaking of world leaders who scare the crap out of me(just came from the North Korea thread)...that guy Ahmadinejad is almost as insane as Kim Jong Il.
They both scare the crap out of me, too.

jrrtoken
06-16-2009, 06:10 PM
They both scare the crap out of me, too.Both are also grossly incompetent when comes to actually delivering their threats; that's why I'm not worried about either Iran or N. Korea developing actually working nukes. Even if they did develop working bombs, they'd be nowhere near as technologically advanced as anyone else; additionally, they'd lack the missiles to actually deliver them to targets other than Israel and Japan, so naturally, Western civilization is spared once again.

Either way, even if N. Korea or Iran would use any sort of nuclear weapon against another country, including something of low-caliber, their countries would be reduced to a smoking crater from the amount of ICBMs that the U.S. and NATO would fire back in retaliation.

Really, the whole "Third-world country commits nuclear holocaust against Western society" scenario is so cliched to the point that I'm completely unfazed by the subject.

Arcesious
06-16-2009, 10:50 PM
Both are also grossly incompetent when comes to actually delivering their threats; that's why I'm not worried about either Iran or N. Korea developing actually working nukes. Even if they did develop working bombs, they'd be nowhere near as technologically advanced as anyone else; additionally, they'd lack the missiles to actually deliver them to targets other than Israel and Japan, so naturally, Western civilization is spared once again.

Either way, even if N. Korea or Iran would use any sort of nuclear weapon against another country, including something of low-caliber, their countries would be reduced to a smoking crater from the amount of ICBMs that the U.S. and NATO would fire back in retaliation.

Really, the whole "Third-world country commits nuclear holocaust against Western society" scenario is so cliched to the point that I'm completely unfazed by the subject.

This is true; yet this comes to my mind:

"Perhaps you refer to the imminent attack by your Rebel fleet?"
―Emperor Palpatine to Luke Skywalker

"I assure you, we are quite safe from your friends here!"
―Emperor Palpatine to Luke Skywalker

Luke: "Your overconfidence is your weakness."

Jae Onasi
06-16-2009, 11:18 PM
Both are also grossly incompetent when comes to actually delivering their threats; that's why I'm not worried about either Iran or N. Korea developing actually working nukes. Even if they did develop working bombs, they'd be nowhere near as technologically advanced as anyone else; additionally, they'd lack the missiles to actually deliver them to targets other than Israel and Japan, so naturally, Western civilization is spared once again.

Either way, even if N. Korea or Iran would use any sort of nuclear weapon against another country, including something of low-caliber, their countries would be reduced to a smoking crater from the amount of ICBMs that the U.S. and NATO would fire back in retaliation.

Really, the whole "Third-world country commits nuclear holocaust against Western society" scenario is so cliched to the point that I'm completely unfazed by the subject.
I'm not worried about nuclear holocaust against Western society. I'm worried about people in SK or Iraq or Israel getting nuked. We'd end up in a war, albeit rather short-lived, I suspect. Still, the idea of American troops ending up in a nuclear zone is not attractive at all. Also, the Iranians and N. Koreans don't need missiles to create dirty bombs that could be smuggled into the US or other Western country and exploded.

Astor
06-17-2009, 07:45 AM
I think things in Iran may come to a head tomorrow, now that Mousavi has called for mass rallies to be organised.

Blood has already been spilt, but there's a strong chance a whole lot more will be spilt tomorrow.

Arcesious
06-17-2009, 09:15 AM
I'll never cease to be amazed at how easily people can get the capacity to kill each other over trivial things like politics.

Jae Onasi
06-17-2009, 10:19 AM
I'll never cease to be amazed at how easily people can get the capacity to kill each other over trivial things like politics.
Freedom and breaking free from oppression comes with a price, Arcesious. You might think differently if you were over in Iran and forced to bow towards Mecca 7 times a day knowing that if you openly declared yourself an atheist, you could be jailed at best and killed at worst.

jonathan7
06-17-2009, 10:25 AM
I'll never cease to be amazed at how easily people can get the capacity to kill each other over trivial things like politics.

Do you know anything about Iran? If a woman is raped she can be charged (and imprisoned) with having adultery.

An Iranian friend of mine was thrown out of Iran after he became a Christian - before he was thrown out, he was tortured for over a year, and if he returns he will be killed; the only reason he got out is because his family are rich.

"Trivial" things like politics, actually control every aspect of your life, and calling them trivial, shows a silly disregard for what actually runs your life. You just happen to be lucky enough to live in a country where your government pretty much lets you do what you want.

Just a note, having just spent 2 months living right next to Iran, and that I have a lot of Iranian friends (two of my flatmates were Iranian - I'm liable to shoot down any dumb-ass comments)

mimartin
06-17-2009, 10:45 AM
I'll never cease to be amazed at how easily people can get the capacity to kill each other over trivial things like politics. It never ceases to amaze me how easily those with freedoms take them for granted and forgot the scarifies of those that fought to ensure our freedoms.

While I do not condone violence or war for political gain, those impeding such inalienable rights do not share your astute logic and force becomes necessary to promote change. So I will not denounce those that fought, killed and died in order to bring me the freedoms I enjoy today.

Arcesious
06-17-2009, 12:19 PM
Freedom and breaking free from oppression comes with a price, Arcesious. You might think differently if you were over in Iran and forced to bow towards Mecca 7 times a day knowing that if you openly declared yourself an atheist, you could be jailed at best and killed at worst.

Freedom shouldn't come at a price though. It just sickens me that we still live in a world where there are places that people have to suffer and die to try to gain freedom.

Do you know anything about Iran? If a woman is raped she can be charged (and imprisoned) with having adultery.

Yes, and problems with government like that don't have to be resolved with death.


An Iranian friend of mine was thrown out of Iran after he became a Christian - before he was thrown out, he was tortured for over a year, and if he returns he will be killed; the only reason he got out is because his family are rich.

"Trivial" things like politics, actually control every aspect of your life, and calling them trivial, shows a silly disregard for what actually runs your life. You just happen to be lucky enough to live in a country where your government pretty much lets you do what you want.

Just a note, having just spent 2 months living right next to Iran, and that I have a lot of Iranian friends (two of my flatmates were Iranian - I'm liable to shoot down any dumb-ass comments)

It never ceases to amaze me how easily those with freedoms take them for granted and forgot the scarifies of those that fought to ensure our freedoms.

While I do not condone violence or war for political gain, those impeding such inalienable rights do not share your astute logic and force becomes necessary to promote change. So I will not denounce those that fought, killed and died in order to bring me the freedoms I enjoy today.

Jeesh, I wasn't at all expecting this kind of a response...

I just think that all this fighting is getting ridiculous, and people dying over it all is completely unneccessary. It is true that force can be nesseccary in matters like this, but not deadly force. I was appalled at how the police were killing all those civilians.

The police that were killing people in the crowds - why did they have to use guns on civilians when there are other methods available to regain control that do not involve death? Tear gas, pepper spray, stun/riot-control grenades, etc, etc.

The year is 2009; and by now I'd expect that this matter in Iran could all be handled far more peacefully and civily.

jrrtoken
06-17-2009, 12:25 PM
The year is 2009; and by now I'd expect that this matter in Iran could all be handled far more peacefully and civily.Welcome to ReaLife™; it doesn't, hasn't, and never will be, all ice cream and lollipops.

If you want some more perspective, read some dystopian fiction, or if you lack the patience, then just play Deus Ex.

Arcesious
06-17-2009, 12:32 PM
Welcome to ReaLife™; it doesn't, hasn't, and never will be, all ice cream and lollipops.

If you want some more perspective, read some dystopian fiction, or if you lack the patience, then just play Deus Ex.

That's my point really - Potentially, it could very easily be 'all ice cream and lollipops'. Sadly, deadly force is so much more convenient; even though non-deadly force is easily and readily available.

mimartin
06-17-2009, 01:38 PM
Personally I would not consider deadly force more convenient and it would not be my first option. That said there are a few things in my life that I would be willing to lay down my life for. Does that make me a blood thirsty unintelligent murder or does it make me someone that knows our freedoms were purchase with the blood, sweat and tears of prior generations?

Why would the Iranian Government want to use non-deadly means to put down the protestors? After all, if they used nonlethal alternatives these people could just protest again in the future. It is my belief that a government that would willfully murder and torture its own citizenry, is worth fighting and dying to overthrow. At least I’m not going to criticize them for trying since if you look at American history and see we fought, killed and died while fighting for our independence over less than the Iranian people have had to deal with.

JediAthos
06-17-2009, 01:41 PM
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

-Thomas Jefferson

My interpretation of this famed Jefferson quote is that even living in the 1700s Jefferson knew that as long as there are human beings on this planet there will always be some that will seek to oppress others and that the oppressed will eventually fight back.

The people of Iran and of the middle east in general have been what most people would consider oppressed for decades. They are told how to live their lives and any deviation from that instruction is punished swiftly and often harshly. I believe that if those that wish it could free themselves from their oppression peacefully they would have done so. Unfortunately most freedom from oppression in human history has come through violence.

jonathan7
06-17-2009, 02:37 PM
Freedom shouldn't come at a price though. It just sickens me that we still live in a world where there are places that people have to suffer and die to try to gain freedom.

Yes, and problems with government like that don't have to be resolved with death.

Arc I know this may come as shock to you, but those freedoms and rights you think everyone should have, most people on the planet don't have them.

And if you think Ghandi's method of protest stops men like Hitler, then good luck to you; the evidence says men like Hitler will kill anyone in there way. So how do you stop men like Hitler?

I just think that all this fighting is getting ridiculous, and people dying over it all is completely unneccessary. It is true that force can be nesseccary in matters like this, but not deadly force. I was appalled at how the police were killing all those civilians.

So are we all, but here is the crux of the problem - the ruling classes in Iran (i.e. the Islamic clerics) don't want the main population to be free and they want to keep power and they will use fear and violence to maintain their hold. So how do you change that?

The police that were killing people in the crowds - why did they have to use guns on civilians when there are other methods available to regain control that do not involve death? Tear gas, pepper spray, stun/riot-control grenades, etc, etc.

Lets review what you've just said Arc; The majority of Governments in the world actually use extreme force against their own populations (which every day results in death. e.g. Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Venezuela, Russia, Chine - do I really have to go on?

Is this right? No
Is it reality? Yes

The year is 2009; and by now I'd expect that this matter in Iran could all be handled far more peacefully and civily.

May I suggest reading World News a little more often.

Jeesh, I wasn't at all expecting this kind of a response...

Arc, no offence, but your last few posts have shown your age and perhaps the extent of your travels to third world countries.

Arcesious
06-17-2009, 03:59 PM
Arc I know this may come as shock to you, but those freedoms and rights you think everyone should have, most people on the planet don't have them.

And if you think Ghandi's method of protest stops men like Hitler, then good luck to you; the evidence says men like Hitler will kill anyone in there way. So how do you stop men like Hitler?



So are we all, but here is the crux of the problem - the ruling classes in Iran (i.e. the Islamic clerics) don't want the main population to be free and they want to keep power and they will use fear and violence to maintain their hold. So how do you change that?



Lets review what you've just said Arc; The majority of Governments in the world actually use extreme force against their own populations (which every day results in death. e.g. Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Venezuela, Russia, Chine - do I really have to go on?

Is this right? No
Is it reality? Yes



May I suggest reading World News a little more often.



Arc, no offence, but your last few posts have shown your age and perhaps the extent of your travels to third world countries.

You are right, and I am incorrect. ;) I deserve the rebuttal I got to my posts.

At the time I had made my first reply to this thread, it was after seeing all the protesting in Iran on the news and hearing of people getting killed; and when I had made the reply I had not yet read very far into exactly what was going on.

JediAthos
06-17-2009, 08:36 PM
Okay so here's a new twist on this topic...now Iran is blaming the United States for the unrest claiming the U.S. has meddled in their internal affairs.

TEHRAN, Iran – Iran directly accused the United States of meddling in the deepening crisis over a disputed presidential election and broadened its media clampdown Wednesday to include blogs and news Web sites. But protesters took to the streets in growing defiance of the country's Islamic rulers.

Article excerpt from the AP via Yahoo! News
(http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090618/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iran_election)

Darth Avlectus
06-17-2009, 09:26 PM
Comes back to thread and is surprised.

I know a few Iranians. Some are friends, even. Intelligent, sharp people and love the idea of freedom. Majority I know are actually long time immigrant residents who had fled Iran decades ago for this reason. (I might also add, older and wiser that know how to cherish and uphold their freedoms in ways younger people often don't. Quite patriotic for it I think. And the younger could learn a thing or two from them.)


@ JediAthos: this is nothing new, unfortunately. Part of me thinks it is due to the fact America and places like the U.S. have freedoms that places like Iran doesn't. Blame basically over inequity. Their people want freedom.

Ironic: we have not really done much of anything to bother them specifically. Except report on it and since the internet is worldwide as well as modern devices...well, subtlety is not to be underestimated. Their people are growing fed up and losing their indifferent apathy of the status quo. Sure they (their leaders) can accuse us as they have, but really all America has done is encourage the people of Iran to stand up for their rights. Inaliable rights universal to humanity.

So if mettling in their affairs means making it difficult (how ever passively or actively) for their oppressive regime to rule over them...GOOD! More power to their people.


While these have already been addressed below, I wish to share my thoughts, albeit late to the draw.
Freedom shouldn't come at a price though. I'm sorry but this is pure idealism. While ideals are good to operate by, we have to deal with reality, as ugly and distasteful as it is. We're not often afforded an option. What's more: everything comes at a price. Freedom is an oxymoron: it is not free and unfettered. Everything carries a price, be it said or unsaid. Think about this whenever anyone or anything offers you something. It is done because the entity wants something in returned. Taking the offering may be an affirmation of indebtedness.

The natural order is a pecking order where the powerful survive best. Peace is not a natural state. It can only be achieved through society and civilization. Unfortunately that has several inevitable side effects: war, gangs, special interests, corruption, and inequity on some level or another.

It just sickens me that we still live in a world where there are places that people have to suffer and die to try to gain freedom. I understand. However, It's reality nevertheless. While wanting there to be no suffering is always a good goal, it is unattainable. Just bowing peacefully will not work, especially in the face of malevolence that threatens oppression.

Yes, and problems with government like that don't have to be resolved with death.
I know you weren't the one who brought up rape. So as to your point: politics mean a great deal more than you give them credit. Do not underestimate subtlety for that matter. While having book smarts isn't necessarily bad, it often times discounts street smarts. Those who are street smart you will find often are inured to injustices on some level or another. I dare you to try to convince them that there is justice in that aspect, especially in instances where "the system has failed" for them.

While, no, rape is not murder...quite frankly I have to disagree with you that death for the perpetrator is too harsh because such things scar the victim for life. I was reminded of that recently when applying that word, rape, in a sense of a metaphorical beat down. Needless to say I was humbled. The victim will live on in agony for the rest of her/his life even should he/she should come to terms with it. There's something to be said for that. Sure imprisonment is an option but honestly I don't really see what good it does in most cases.

I know someone who was raped as a child, she was a friend in high school. I thought she was just quiet and tomboyish. Strode to be unattractive. I was actually taken aback when she told me this. Looking back, it was signs of hurt all along and I did not recognize them. She's better now, but, she told me part of her will always hurt because of this.

It's not my place to judge whoever did it, but if I ever have a kid that (God forbid) goes through that, lord have mercy on that perpetrator's soul; for I will not. And I'm not the only person who feels like this either. These kinds of people cannot be rehabilitated nor will they ever change.

I just think that all this fighting is getting ridiculous, and people dying over it all is completely unneccessary. It is true that force can be nesseccary in matters like this, but not deadly force. I was appalled at how the police were killing all those civilians.

The police that were killing people in the crowds - why did they have to use guns on civilians when there are other methods available to regain control that do not involve death? Tear gas, pepper spray, stun/riot-control grenades, etc, etc. It is a shame that is has to be this way, yes. However, when there is leadership that rules by force, bowing to it only affirms being servile. Even then, obedience does not ensure being treated humanely. It's simply a no-win situation.

I don't claim to know their ways, but I am left under the impression their ways are more forceful than others. Currently anyway. It's not necessarily their ways, so much as the norm in which it is carried out. Extremist's ruling. Rather than the violence itself, maybe you would be better off focusing on what is the underlying cause of the violence in the first place.

The year is 2009; and by now I'd expect that this matter in Iran could all be handled far more peacefully and civily.
I'm sorry, but where is it ever written on the wall that violence and war will end by a given time? :giveup: (I mean this with all due respect, of course.) You'll understand if I fail to see how the number of the year should change much of anything?

That's my point really - Potentially, it could very easily be 'all ice cream and lollipops'. No, it cannot. Not easily if at all. People disagree on what is in the "best interests" of their society and act accordingly.

Forgive my phillisophical rant: conflict is the way of life and it knows no limits. There will always be suffering for one reason or another. Free thinking/free will always risks crossing the line into abhorrent and otherwise wrongful actions. Death and tragedy never take a holiday off, either. :(

What I mean is: because of disagreement, these situations eventually and inevitably arise.

This is true; yet this comes to my mind:

"Perhaps you refer to the imminent attack by your Rebel fleet?"
―Emperor Palpatine to Luke Skywalker

"I assure you, we are quite safe from your friends here!"
―Emperor Palpatine to Luke Skywalker

Luke: "Your overconfidence is your weakness."
:confused: Would you care to elaborate what point you meant on this?

Arc I know this may come as shock to you, but those freedoms and rights you think everyone should have, most people on the planet don't have them.
Adding to your sentiment: Often times in places like these, things like money or status (influence) is the difference between being let go, or thrown in prison, or beaten severely for infractions. 3rd world countries are dangerous to put it shortly, even in their so called civics. Sad but true.

So how do you stop men like Hitler? I know this was @ arc, but if I may: those like hitler can only recognize being told things "in kind", unfortunately.

So are we all, but here is the crux of the problem - the ruling classes in Iran (i.e. the Islamic clerics) don't want the main population to be free and they want to keep power and they will use fear and violence to maintain their hold. So how do you change that? Probably the most fundamental question I've heard on this yet. I would suggest what is necessary to attain society, namely that which fosters and maintains peace. I am afraid, however, the inevitable price is bloodshed. Is there even one nation in the world today that wasn't formed this way (or that isn't ruled by another that was)? I sure as heck don't know of any.

Even if peaceful society is successfully attained, how long will it take? At what cost? Most importantly, how long will it endure?

Expect the worst but long for the best. I don't know...

Arcesious
06-18-2009, 02:24 AM
Comes back to thread and is surprised.
I'm sorry, but where is it ever written on the wall that violence and war will end by a given time? :giveup: (I mean this with all due respect, of course.) You'll understand if I fail to see how the number of the year should change much of anything?

Well apparently world peace was attained somewhere in the 22nd century in star trek or something like that... Yeah, yeah - I bet I know what you'd say about that sentence, but let me finish... My point is that humanity has a very long, crazy history; and now it's the 21st century and our species is making huge breakthroughs and advancements. Things are changing very rapidly.

Given, we've always had breakthroughs and defining moments throughout history; but you have to admit - the metaphorical puzzle of humanity is drawing ever nearer completion now. (Well I guess that's debatable, but you get my point...)

At the moment, we're still sorting out a lot of problems. In an ideal world; these modern days would be recorded solely in history as days of breakthroughs, great discoveries, peace, and understanding. But rather it will also at the same time be a chapter about wars, division, and struggle.

However long human history is; there's plenty of it for us to have already learned from both the mistakes and common sense our ancestors had. Unfortunately, humanity isn't exactly doing too well when it comes to learning from our past. (Common sense: so rare it's a superpower!)

I guess that in summary I'm saying that it really sucks that we haven't attained things like world peace by now when ideally, we should all know better. Indeed, your case in point - it's incredibly unlikely that we'll ever attain anything nearly like a utopia.

But overall I guess it just frustrates the heck out of me that that's the cold, harsh truth of reality and that I can't really do anything about it but complain on an internet forum about how messed up our species is. I'm part of the problem and I know it too - I'm a lazy guy who slacks off, plays videogames; and too often I take my luxurious, comfortable, american life for granted. The problems of the world really concern me quite a bit, and I'd just love for it all to just be fixed.

I feel sorry for all those politicians. I look at the problems and the only solutions to problems I can think of would be possible in an ideal world. They're the ones who actually have to deal with it all. If I were a politician, I'd probably being trying all kinds of crazy things just like they are now. Things that are unlikely to work, but they try them out even so; because they don't have any better ideas, and neither do I.

Too easily I blame the politicians for messing up everything, but really - they handle things far better than I would in their position.

*Arc takes long pause to reread everything in his post...*

*deactivates pessimism.exe*
*reactivates optimism.exe*

Could be worse, you know? That's life. When life gives you lemons, make lemonade.

Man this all seems so familiar - how many times have I made this same exact type of rambling before? Three or four times? :p

Well there ya go - nice, medium-sized wall-o-text, yet another post by that wierd forum-goer named Arc; whom talks way, way, way too much, but meh, I hope it's entertaining... :xp:


:confused: Would you care to elaborate what point you meant on this?

Summary: No one is invulnerable.


Even if peaceful society is successfully attained, how long will it take? At what cost? Most importantly, how long will it endure?

Expect the worst but long for the best. I don't know...

I dunno... 2140? *shrugs*

Hope I haven't gone off-topic here...

Jae Onasi
06-18-2009, 03:52 AM
Well apparently world peace was attained somewhere in the 22nd century in star trek or something like that...

From the movie ET, when Greg asks why ET's people can't just beam him up:
This is reality, Greg!

JediAthos
06-18-2009, 07:46 AM
"You'll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race"
-Geroge Bernard Shaw


@Arc: Unfortunate as it is, I don't think humanity is anywhere near world peace or unilateral cooperation between nations. Iran certainly isn't the only example of violence in this world today...see the genocide in Darfur. I have absolutely no sympathy for politicians whatsoever as I'm convinced that maybe 80% of them are more concerned about their money, and their legacy than they are about actually doing their jobs. Perhaps that's pessimistic, but I can't help it.

Until men like Ahmadenijad, Kim Jong Il, and the other dictators around the world are gone and are prevented from regaining their power I don't think we'll ever see what you believe we should attain Arc.

Jae Onasi
06-18-2009, 10:02 PM
I'd love to see world peace, but there are too many people who don't want to play nice with their toys. Ahmadinejad is one of those who likes to have the diplomatic equivalent of toddler tantrums.

JediAthos
06-18-2009, 10:07 PM
Well, if these protests continue the way they're going maybe Ahmadinejad will be out on his butt soon.

Darth Avlectus
06-20-2009, 03:35 AM
^^^^^^UPDATE: Just saw the news. Political leaders are rallying. If it's night time here in the states, it's morning over there. They were saying that "tomorrow" will be another mass demonstration. Kohmaine has basically said "we will tolerate no more of this" to protests and given the okay to the law enforcement to basically take out problem people.

One thing is for sure: the veil has fallen. Their face is that of brutality. It has been revealed. There are so many cell phones and cameras...The internet is everywhere. The news is all over and reporting on this everywhere. Their people are fed up--they want freedom and a recount. The next 24 hours will be pretty serious. Supposed to be, anyway.

<snip>My point is that humanity has a very long, crazy history; and now it's the 21st century and our species is making huge breakthroughs and advancements. Things are changing very rapidly.

Happening of course while all this is going on nevertheless. But FTR I get where you're going. Certainly no points off for dreaming for a better world.

I just don't think the world is ready for a golden age. We humans as a species are not advanced enough, spiritually and otherwise, not relating to R&D or technology, to be able to have any lasting, across-the-board consensual cooperative harmony in liberty; aka conditions for world peace. I just don't think the human race has it--at least not yet, if at all. Certainly not with Kim Jong Il in power, or Ahmadenajhad, or other people like them.

Given, we've always had breakthroughs and defining moments throughout history; but you have to admit - the metaphorical puzzle of humanity is drawing ever nearer completion now. (Well I guess that's debatable, but you get my point...)

Well, we're watching it all unfold right now. I wonder how long it will be before people around the world will wake up and realize they are looking into the very face of brutality--if they haven't already. I am watching the reaction of the rest of the world and whether or not they are learning from this. Their actions will speak in time.

Were a nirvana earth realized, though, it would only be a matter of time before some kind of utopia occurred and some were oppressed and some lived lavished. Then it would just start all over again. Now that I think about it--how many times have we been here before? Just saying...

If their people are outraged and will not be held down...I don't know of anything that will ultimately stop the will of the truly determined spirit.

Unfortunately, humanity isn't exactly doing too well when it comes to learning from our past. (Common sense: so rare it's a superpower!)
I have my theories about it, as do we all. Suppose it is working towards quality of life and not status? Towards satisfaction and finding peace with our own lives? And in so doing, being an example through your very actions? Something to think about, anyway.

I guess that in summary I'm saying that it really sucks that we haven't attained things like world peace by now when ideally, we should all know better. Indeed, your case in point - it's incredibly unlikely that we'll ever attain anything nearly like a utopia. FTR I get your point. BUT I feel a distinction must be made: Not utopia; utopia, there is ulterior motive and a portion are oppressed while others live fat and easy. I think you meant more like: Nirvana; peace on earth. :thmbup1:

Maybe it isn't ultimately attainable. We still have to get up every day. We still have to try. We still must fight that which must be fought.

"Mastery. Perfection. It is not that which is achieved, but that for which you constantly must strive."
--Miyamoto Musashi (paraphrased from Musashi's Book of Five Rings)

I'm part of the problem and I know it too - I'm a lazy guy who slacks off, plays videogames; and too often I take my luxurious, comfortable, american life for granted. The problems of the world really concern me quite a bit, and I'd just love for it all to just be fixed. Well, that's a start. Might I suggest making some kind of spiritual journey? Could be anything, really. Even in your everyday life. You don't need to believe in god to work towards betterment of the human race.

Pertaining to this, and what really matters to you in these issues: No, you can't fix it all, But you *can* fix something. Playing the one note on the one string we're given is all we can really do.

Side note: In perhaps studying underlying causes of the problems from numerous angles you may obtain insight that you can pass on to another someday. As you go about your everyday life of course.

Too easily I blame the politicians for messing up everything, but really - they handle things far better than I would in their position. Maybe, maybe not. Call them like you see them and trust in yourself to make those decisions.

Personally, I'm not in their shoes. So I don't know. Call that an argument from ignorance and tell me it cuts both ways...yeah-yeah-yeah... I'm being completely honest here since no one person can be completely objective. I can't judge either way except for what evidence I do have. Or intuit based upon experience. I generally mistrust people with power, regardless. Cast them their credit due, be it admonishment or praise--and do each with equal intensity. At least find a way to balance it otherwise. Innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt; I ballast that with my cynical outlook.

Summary: No one is invulnerable.
Ah. Thanks. Well, nobody is invulnerable, but nobody is also absolutely helpless unless they are dead (for all intents and purposes). USA invulenrable? No. Statistical chances in our favor? So it appears.


I have absolutely no sympathy for politicians whatsoever as I'm convinced that maybe 80% of them are more concerned about their money, and their legacy than they are about actually doing their jobs. Perhaps that's pessimistic, but I can't help it.
Cal it like you see it. Politics is a game, unfortunately, where all our arses are at stake.

"Patience Louis, We are only hu-man."
Robocop to Officer Louis, end of robocop 2.

Arcesious
06-20-2009, 04:35 AM
^^^^^^UPDATE: Just saw the news. Political leaders are rallying. If it's night time here in the states, it's morning over there. They were saying that "tomorrow" will be another mass demonstration. Kohmaine has basically said "we will tolerate no more of this" to protests and given the okay to the law enforcement to basically take out problem people.

One thing is for sure: the veil has fallen. Their face is that of brutality. It has been revealed. There are so many cell phones and cameras...The internet is everywhere. The news is all over and reporting on this everywhere. Their people are fed up--they want freedom and a recount. The next 24 hours will be pretty serious. Supposed to be, anyway.


So in summary:

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t70/Arcesious/the_internet_is_here.jpg


Happening of course while all this is going on nevertheless. But FTR I get where you're going. Certainly no points off for dreaming for a better world.

I just don't think the world is ready for a golden age. We humans as a species are not advanced enough, spiritually and otherwise, not relating to R&D or technology, to be able to have any lasting, across-the-board consensual cooperative harmony in liberty; aka conditions for world peace. I just don't think the human race has it--at least not yet, if at all. Certainly not with Kim Jong Il in power, or Ahmadenajhad, or other people like them.

Well, we're watching it all unfold right now. I wonder how long it will be before people around the world will wake up and realize they are looking into the very face of brutality--if they haven't already. I am watching the reaction of the rest of the world and whether or not they are learning from this. Their actions will speak in time.


Unfortunately I don't think much will come of it unless if someone does a coup of Iran's government...


Maybe it isn't ultimately attainable. We still have to get up every day. We still have to try. We still must fight that which must be fought.


Eh, that's the easy part. The hard part is figuring out the plan of action.


"Mastery. Perfection. It is not that which is achieved, but that for which you constantly must strive."
--Miyamoto Musashi (paraphrased from Musashi's Book of Five Rings)


You have just given me a great idea for that 'Cataclysmic Infinium' thing I'm working on... Thanks!


Well, that's a start. Might I suggest making some kind of spiritual journey? Could be anything, really. Even in your everyday life. You don't need to believe in god to work towards betterment of the human race.


I'll think of something eventually...


Pertaining to this, and what really matters to you in these issues: No, you can't fix it all, But you *can* fix something. Playing the one note on the one string we're given is all we can really do.


A good problem-solver has to get everything fixed or nothing fixed at all. Look at James Bond - He can't complete the mission if he doesn't get the girl.
(At least as far as I know from what James Bond movies I've seen)

So, metaphorically - why only one string? Mission Impossible or not, its better that you try to take the whole harp... or guitar... or whatever instrument it is. Metaphorically. :p


Cal it like you see it. Politics is a game, unfortunately, where all our arses are at stake.


Goodness knows humans love to play games... Maybe too much.

Lord of Hunger
06-20-2009, 01:40 PM
Surprisingly, the situation in Iran is better than in NK or Myanmar: you've got religious rule rather than secular rule. For those atheists in the thread who are now going "WTF", the importance of this is that with religious rule the clergy is at least pretending to be accountable to God/Yahweh/Allah/Jehovah/The Lord/Him/It/That Old Omnipotent Guy. If they start brutalizing their OWN people, they will essentially destroy much of their religious legitimacy. I haven't read the entire Koran (it was actually great stuff, but too much of it for me to complete) but I do know that it prohibits this sort of thing. You'd never guess from the prevalent image of the Taliban but Islam actually promotes civil liberties and political freedoms, even women's rights (including the right to divorce your husband). Plus most Iranians love America and the West. The Ayatollah at best can make an effort to prevent any vandalism and serious challenge to his authority, but either he's going to have to accept the reformer as the true victor or face a new Iranian Revolution, one that the Revolutionary Guards and the Military will be hard pressed to oppose. And at this point only North Korea will side with Iran. Brace yourselves for "Change we can believe in", Iranian edition. :D

Seriously, I have every hope that the Iranian people will come out on top. From what I have learned about them, they are a very noble culture with strong integrity.

Darth Avlectus
06-21-2009, 04:46 AM
So in summary:

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t70/Arcesious/the_internet_is_here.jpg And that the people have had enough--everything severe will be caught and broadcast in some form or another. It is basically a stalemate.

Unfortunately I don't think much will come of it unless if someone does a coup of Iran's government... Hooo, I am not too sure about that. What is a naiton/empire/kingdom without its people? If they make off and crush ther people like "Y'all shut up, now", they will essentially be taking their own legs out from under them and spit out pieces of their pelvis; basically their image after doing that will more or less confirm the rumored brutality everyone else presumes about them. It is beginning to dawn on the Iranian leadership that the world is watching, and potentially to be set against them if they screw things over. The page has turned and there is no turning back, now. Their only option to retain credibility is to do as their people wish.

Don't you see? Their (people's) peaceful means of protesting (I suspect are getting more and more widespread now) is being captured. If it is reacted to with brutality and murder, it will ruin their image and credibility. Iran's leadership of course blames the US. However, I would say it is a deservance deficit for Iran's leadership and that they have also brought it upon themselves.


Eh, that's the easy part. The hard part is figuring out the plan of action. You still have to do it.

"To "let fate decide" where you can choose invites defeat."
--Sun Tzu, Art of War paraphrase.


You have just given me a great idea for that 'Cataclysmic Infinium' thing I'm working on... Thanks! Glad to help. :thmbup1:



I'll think of something eventually...
Application, resolute.


A good problem-solver has to get everything fixed or nothing fixed at all. Fallacy: Black-or-white only. Conflating unattainable perfection focus with standards so impossibly high you could never hope to reach them in the first place. A problem solver does not necessarily need to solve absolutely everything, everywhere. Just thorough on the focus. OR here and there as one goes along.

Look at James Bond - He can't complete the mission if he doesn't get the girl.
Hollywood. :rolleyes: What I mean is an unattainable "perfection" as your focus. You may never be able to 100% live up to it all the time, but the important thing is that you strive for it and keep striving. Mistakes happen, you're human.

So, metaphorically - why only one string? Mission Impossible or not, its better that you try to take the whole harp... or guitar... or whatever instrument it is. Metaphorically. :p You could never solve every problem. There are so many problems to solve and questions to answer you'd never get far. So it's the ones that matter most to you that should count towards your goal.

So far as a "whole harp", you would need to be more specific; you're generalizing too much. And all at once is also bound to fail. Great leaps and bounds are done in small steps.

I may not have much but I have just enough to know how things are not achieved.

Arcesious
06-21-2009, 01:28 PM
You could never solve every problem.

Well of course, that's true. I'm not trying to say that the world is black and white, but I am saying that making yourself beleive that you can't solve every problem will limit your ability to solve problems. Strive to solve them all, ignore the voice in your head that says 'it cannot be done'. Even if it cannot be done, my point is that you should convince yourself that it can be done, thus resulting in a sort of persistence and diligence that will be nearly unstoppable.

Darth Avlectus
06-21-2009, 03:44 PM
Well of course, that's true. I'm not trying to say that the world is black and white, but I am saying that making yourself beleive that you can't solve every problem will limit your ability to solve problems. Interesting coming from you, now, considering you're the one admitting to having a lack of motivation--with all due respect. So it stands to reason as simple truth, nothing more/less. All I was getting at is you have to do it one focus at a time. Your energy and appetite for solving problems may not be limited, but your ability to focus is. Otherwise you're just spinning your wheels.

Here in this Iran situation, letting the cards play out as they have, has been a wise move, given our (America's) current situation. If they kill the political opponent, that man will become a martyr. That will only drive everyone else that much harder--and to me it's proof that something does transcend the physical world.

Strive to solve them all, ignore the voice in your head that says 'it cannot be done'. There is a big difference between accepting what you cannot change, and just using excuses (predestination, meant to be) to do nothing at all.

Even if it cannot be done, my point is that you should convince yourself that it can be done, thus resulting in a sort of persistence and diligence that will be nearly unstoppable.

Then why are we even debating this at all? :confused: That's what I hoped to imply with Musashi's quote.

Arcesious
06-21-2009, 04:37 PM
Interesting coming from you, now, considering you're the one admitting to having a lack of motivation--with all due respect.


Yeah... I can be pretty two-faced at times... Sorry. I'm wierd like that... *shrugs*


Then why are we even debating this at all? :confused: That's what I hoped to imply with Musashi's quote.

Oh... Well if that's the case, its about time for me to stop beating this dead horse. :p

JediAthos
06-22-2009, 07:29 PM
Unfortunately it looks like this whole thing is going to turn bloody. The Iranian government is cracking down on the protesters, and even went so far as to have several family members of a cleric who was aligning himself with the opposition arrested.

I would love to see the Iranian people get what they want, but it doesn't seem like Ayatollah Khameni will allow it, and he is the one pulling the strings.

jrrtoken
06-22-2009, 08:23 PM
The more protesters they kill, the stronger the resistance movement becomes. As of now, most of resistance has been civil, even when faced with total violence. Yet, I could see it turning into an all-out civil war if Mousavi is either arrested or assassinated, by government-aligned militiamen or the government itself. That is probably one of the few chances of actual change in Iran, unless if an external power intervenes, though that is highly unlikely, as of now.

Darth Avlectus
06-22-2009, 09:24 PM
^^^the change or the intervention?
I agree: The more they do (Iran's leadership) to suppress its people, the worse it seems to get for them.

Ah the internet and all those mobile devices capturing this...history in the making. News media around the world. It's all here. Normally I gripe at the media because it is so petty, but in this case it is offering a solution to a real problem.

Power to those people.

@ Iran's dictatorship: Smile, you're on candid camera all over the world.

jawathehutt
06-22-2009, 10:21 PM
I'm sure a few people have seen this already, its a video of a university student named Neda just after being shot by a Basiji sniper for protesting. Its spreading like fire over the internet and certainly isnt winning Amidinajad any positive support from the rest of the world.
Warning, graphic content
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMvtIJC9Z_w

JediAthos
06-22-2009, 10:27 PM
Ahmedenijad wasn't winning any popularity contests before this election. In reality, any action by the military is likely being ordered by the Ayatollah Khameni. He is the real power behind Iran's theocracy.

Web Rider
06-23-2009, 12:06 AM
Well, here's hoping for a fairly civil revolution if that's what it comes to.

mur'phon
06-24-2009, 05:40 PM
Not holding my breath, with the possibility of Ahmadinejad having actually won the election in the first place still there, it's not even certain that a revolution would be "the peoples choice". That, and Rafsanjanis dance isn't going too well lately, which means that even if Mousavi gets to be press (unlikely), it'll probably not be much change in areas such as foreign policy and the judicary.