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True_Avery
06-28-2009, 04:02 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/wayoflife/06/28/gayby/index.html

Found this article and thought I'd share. Personally not really interested in a debate, but the topic was too hot for Ahto so I decided to post it here. Its relevant to my life so I thought it good to post.

mimartin
06-28-2009, 05:42 PM
"I believe in family values, but family is about taking care of your children and respecting one another," he says. "It doesn't matter what your sexual orientation is." I could not agree more.

JediAthos
06-28-2009, 08:52 PM
I'm with you on that mimartin, I've often compared the gay rights debate to the civil rights debate...oppressed portion of the population wants to be held in the same regard as everyone else. That is on a very simple level of course, but I guess I fail to see the difference. I would think in the almost 40 or 50 years in the civil rights era we as a population would have learned just the slightest bit of tolerance.

Insignia_Enithma
06-28-2009, 09:00 PM
Just thought I'd comment on two parts that really cought my attention (I'm 16, and my mum came out as gay when i was 8.)


"These children are more likely to experiment with same-sex relationships. They're more likely to be confused and hurt."

This is 100% bull s***. Children will experiment no matter what, will this cause confusion? Sometimes, but not all kids get hurt do9ing what actually is a very natural thing.


"In middle school, because of pervasive homophobia and taunting, I didn't tell any of my new friends in school about my family to the point where I wouldn't invite them to my birthday parties," Silber says.

Children are cruel, I've experience a great deal of bullying because of my mums sexuality (emergency room visits coming close to ten now in fact after some kid attacked me).

Alot of children who do this sort of harassment have parents who condone it. This is a fault of those childrens parents, and a gay couple should never have to feel they are wrong because some little snot's parents are.. welll homephobic little snots.


"I believe in family values, but family is about taking care of your children and respecting one another," he says. "It doesn't matter what your sexual orientation is."

I agree with this.

ironheart
06-28-2009, 10:53 PM
I don't think it should matter as much as people make it. If you're lucky enough to find someone you love and want to have a family with, what should your genders matter for? Hmph. *kicks America*

I love articles like this. Gives me the warm fuzzies.

Samnmax221
06-28-2009, 11:06 PM
*kicks America*
I supposed there's no intolerant retards anywhere else, hmmmm?

ironheart
06-28-2009, 11:10 PM
I supposed there's no intolerant retards anywhere else, hmmmm?

Well yes. But I live here so I'm allowed to kick us. :)

JediAthos
06-28-2009, 11:10 PM
I supposed there's no intolerant retards anywhere else, hmmmm?


I'm sure that's not the case, but the US seems to be a focal point for this debate as the individual states decide whether to accept the idea of marriage for gays. At the same time though I will admit that I don't see much news from the rest of the world.

ironheart
06-28-2009, 11:12 PM
I'm sure that's not the case, but the US seems to be a focal point for this debate as the individual states decide whether to accept the idea of marriage for gays. At the same time though I will admit that I don't see much news from the rest of the world.

That too.

Makes us kind of hypocritical don't it?

"FREEDOM! But not really."

JediAthos
06-28-2009, 11:15 PM
That too.

Makes us kind of hypocritical don't it?

"FREEDOM! But not really."


Yup...I agree. What I think is hilarious is how many people use religion to come down on the other side of this debate and justify their hatred and intolerance.

vanir
06-29-2009, 01:25 AM
Gay marriage is illegal in Australia. Gayness is illegal in some states. It's funny though, according to schoolkids just about everybody is gay. You're so gay. That's so gay. It's all just so gay.
Maybe there is something over compensating in homophobia. A gay bloke I knew well once used to do a bit of street walking and he says some local judges were his biggest customers. More than a few have been hitting the papers accused of same sex paedophilia lately too.

I think maybe Parliament is gay. lol


btw True_Avery you might be gayer than a Rogers and Hammerstein musical but you'll always be sexy to me, I just want you to know I can act like a girl if you want. Shower regularly, wear clean underwear and stuff :D

Arcesious
06-29-2009, 01:44 AM
It's funny though, according to schoolkids just about everybody is gay. You're so gay. That's so gay. It's all just so gay.

At my school, you wouldn't beleive how many people say the exact same things. Left and right, constantly "That's gay" from the majority of the students. It's worst in the lunchroom.

Still, I suspect that for most of the students it isn't said with discrimitory intentions though, but rather a bad habit picked up from some moron that spread like a virus...

vanir
06-29-2009, 01:56 AM
Point at them and say, "Actually, that's gay. Try not to over-compensate next time."

urluckyday
06-29-2009, 05:35 PM
I'm sorry...idc bout the argument either way...but the term "gayby boom" really annoys me...just rubs me the wrong way.

Jae Onasi
06-29-2009, 06:59 PM
Shower regularly, wear clean underwear and stuff :D
This is good advice for everyone, regardless of gender, orientation, race, and yes, even Mets fans.

People have been saying "that's so gay" since _I_ was in elementary school a mere _mumbly_ years ago. Most kids in elementary school don't even know what hetero or homosexuality is, or what gay means (or what gay _used_ to mean before it became associated with homosexuality). My kids have said it a few times, I've corrected them and we don't use that term in our home because we think it's derogatory.

I think there is a legitimate concern about kids growing up outside of the traditional 1 mother/1 father family unit. The kids who are growing up in the polygamist sects are forced into marriage at a young age and there are reports of a lot of these girls being raped/molested. This kind of lifestyle clearly isn't in the children's best interest at all. There are concerns about how growing up in a homosexual parent family affects the child's own sexual image and development. These are legitimate concerns which the CNN article has attempted to address. However, I don't think we can toss those concerns out the window without some serious scientific study in the attempt to be politically correct in being tolerant and accepting of alternative lifestyles. If studies show that children can grow up in same-sex families as well as traditional families the same, I can deal with that. What happens, though, if the studies show that a traditional mother/father environment turns out to be the best?

jrrtoken
06-29-2009, 07:15 PM
I think there is a legitimate concern about kids growing up outside of the traditional 1 mother/1 father family unit. The kids who are growing up in the polygamist sects are forced into marriage at a young age and there are reports of a lot of these girls being raped/molested.There's considerable difference between polygamy and same-sex marriage when children are involved, to the point where the comparison of the two is illogical. Polygamy is usually installed for the patriarch's selfish benefit only, whereas same-sex marriage is more or less analogous to a standard monogamous marriage.This kind of lifestyle clearly isn't in the children's best interest at all.Same goes for traditional marriages.There are concerns about how growing up in a homosexual parent family affects the child's own sexual image and development.Why? If both parents are productive and law-abiding and good-natured people, then why should sexual orientation even matter to the child? If all other attributes of an opposite-sex and same-sex are constant, excluding sexual orientation, then why should we suspect that child would be "corrupted" by homosexuality?
These are legitimate concerns which the CNN article has attempted to address.A link would be nice, please.However, I don't think we can toss those concerns out the window without some serious scientific study in the attempt to be politically correct in being tolerant and accepting of alternative lifestyles. If studies show that children can grow up in same-sex families as well as traditional families the same, I can deal with that.I'd hardly consider changing the law all due to a few studies.What happens, though, if the studies show that a traditional mother/father environment turns out to be the best?Then it should be allowed, regardless. If single-parent households are allowed by the state, then why hasn't that been challenged yet? I'd say that there's much more instability in a single-parent household than a monogamous one.

Insignia_Enithma
06-29-2009, 07:58 PM
^Thats not fair Pastrami... You said what I would say... but better...

@Jae: A question of interest, how do same sex couples even relate to polygamist sects... I mean seriously. I don't think a child who grows up in a same-sex couple family is effected negatively at all in fact, most children in this sort of family are effected positively (more open-minded to accepting people who live alternative life styles).

mimartin
06-29-2009, 08:08 PM
What happens, though, if the studies show that a traditional mother/father environment turns out to be the best? We outlaw divorce?

Since between 41% and 50% of marriages end in divorce in the U.S. I’d say that is more threatening to the “so-called” traditional family than gay marriage.

It would be great if ever child would have their biological parents to help raise them, but a single mother, single father, step-parent, adoptive parent or gay parent can raise a child provided they love and care for that child by putting the child’s interest above their own.

For the record, I was raised by a single working mother (until age 9, my father left before I was born after 13 years of marriage) and although she is straight I have no doubt she could have done the same if she were gay.


I really don’t know what polygamist sects have to do with gay couples. Is there a huge population of polygamist gays that have children?

jonathan7
06-29-2009, 09:46 PM
It would seem to me at least, that a stable loving same-sex relationship is preferable with regards raising children, than the partner swapping fraternity - all the scientific evidence shows that divorce/break ups have a massive impact on children. I would also say that, it would seem to me that a stable, loving, middle class same sex couple are far more suitable parents, than an unstable, abusive working class couple.

I would like to point out to people, that tolerance is allowing something you disagree with to continue. This swings both ways regarding freedom of speech - to those who disagree with homosexuality, and those who agree with it.

With regards Christianity - despite what some say, the New Testament is very clear with regards a Christian and homosexuality - but no-where in the Bible do I find non-Christians being forced to behave to Christian morality.

Homosexuality, is a very complicated matter - from psychology studies, no-one is 100% gay, or 100% straight (despite what some may claim). Further more, none of my gay friends would say they 'chose' to be gay - they happened to be that way. A good Christian friend of mine is gay, but chooses to be celebrate because of his own inclinations.

As far as my understanding goes - Jesus loves all people, he doesn't care about an individuals sexuality, any more than he cares about race, sex etc etc It often seems to me the Church greatly "over states" the Gay issue - all sex outside of marriage in the Churches view is wrong, I've never quite understood, when Churches speak out why they single gay people out.

My 2 cents...

@Jae: A question of interest, how do same sex couples even relate to polygamist sects... I mean seriously. I don't think a child who grows up in a same-sex couple family is effected negatively at all in fact, most children in this sort of family are effected positively (more open-minded to accepting people who live alternative life styles).

This is a very curious statement for several reasons - firstly, please qualify what you mean by "open minded" and why this is a positive thing? Most people I meet seem to consider themselves open minded - have you ever met a close minded person. Secondly - why is being accepting of people who live alternative life styles necessarily a good thing? What happens if we become so "open minded" that a Serial Killers alternative life style is "accepted"?

Jae Onasi
06-29-2009, 09:53 PM
Divorced parenting is a red herring, guys, sorry--this is not the ideal either. PastramiX--the article I referred to is the one True_Avery had in her OP, and brings up some of the things I've been concerned about in the past with regard to gay parenting. Keep in mind gay parenting is a relatively new phenomenon. Prior to artificial insemination, it wasn't nearly as easy for same-sex couples to have any children. We're embarking on new territory socially without exploring all the ramifications.

The question I have, and which I would like to see some studies answer, is if same-sex couple parenting gives kids the same positive upbringing that heterosexual parenting does. I don't know if it does or not. If it does, fine. If not, what do you do for the best interests of kids?

And before you crucify me as anti-gay, I'd like to remind you all that one of my sisters-in-law is married to another woman, I have a number of gay friends, and one of my dearest friends ever was gay and died of AIDS, and his partner and I meet up whenever our travel schedules allow it.

@jonathan7--that's why I'm kind of 'live and let live' on these matters--my gay friends live the lifestyle, and I still love them. I couldn't embrace it for myself because of my religious convictions and thoughts about it socially/scientifically. However, I don't try to talk them out of it. That's between them and their conscience/God. They are who they are, and fortunately they love me for who I am, too.

Web Rider
06-29-2009, 10:02 PM
We're embarking on new territory socially without exploring all the ramifications.
You mean like when we started allowing blacks to marry?

The question I have, and which I would like to see some studies answer, is if same-sex couple parenting gives kids the same positive upbringing that heterosexual parenting does. I don't know if it does or not. If it does, fine. If not, what do you do for the best interests of kids?
Since when is a heterosexual upbringing a positive one? Isn't it just the "default" one?

And before you crucify me as anti-gay, I'd like to remind you all that one of my sisters-in-law is married to another woman, I have a number of gay friends, and one of my dearest friends ever was gay and died of AIDS, and his partner and I meet up whenever our travel schedules allow it.
Having gay friends doesn't mean that you can't be against gay marriage. I know a good dozen people who have gay friends, but wouldn't ever want to see them get married.

ironheart
06-29-2009, 10:06 PM
Two straight people does not a good family make. Orientation doesn't decide whether or not you can provide a stable home. There's plenty of screwed up straight couples. Why should they get to have children and not a loving, nurturing same sex couple? Don't seem fair.

And indeed, it's not exactly a choice. I mean, maybe it is for some people. But I've noticed, you usually don't choose who you're attracted to. You just ARE.

How can a religious group that preaches tolerance and "only God can judge" crap go and get all judge-y on people like that? "We have a loving God. But if you don't act and think and do things exactly the way we want you to, we say he doesn't love you." Eh? If he/she/it exists I don't think they'd be like that at all.

I think people take the bible way to literally anyway. There was a West Wing episode that illustrated that quite nicely I believe... Something about if we did exactly what the Bible says we'd be selling our daughters and beating our wives and crap... yeah.

I think it was meant to be a guideline, not a bind you in chains send you to hell if you don't follow it rule book.

I don't really know anything. But I do know what I think is right and every human being deserves to be treated with same respect offered to every other human being.

Or something.

[end rant]

:D

jrrtoken
06-29-2009, 10:16 PM
Divorced parenting is a red herring, guys, sorry--this is not the ideal either.I disagree; I think it's fairly necessary to mention it, as a child raised by a single parent has a greater likelihood of being brought up in a traumatizing and negative way. It too faces the same controversy of same-sex marriage in households, although it is more accepted as a norm of society, which is quite unfortunate, if you ask me.The question I have, and which I would like to see some studies answer, is if same-sex couple parenting gives kids the same positive upbringing that heterosexual parenting does. I don't know if it does or not. If it does, fine. If not, what do you do for the best interests of kids?Seeing as there's many, many domestic complications that arise that might negatively impact a child's life in a heterosexual monogamous household, it's likely, if not probable, that those will be apparent in homosexual monogamous household. However, statistics are one thing, but actual mainstream acceptance is another. Kids produced from marriages either end up, by what society deems, as good or bad. I've seen an equally amount of well brought up and poorly raised children produced by a marriage, so I believe that the real impact on upbringing is not the type of the marriage that is relevant to a child's upbringing, but simply the personality and demeanor of the individual(s) that raises the child.

More to the point, if, by some means, same-sex marriages are deemed as conducive to a child's negative upbringing, then most of those instances will be swept under the rug and ignored, much like what happens in heterosexual marriages and single-parent upbringings.

jonathan7
06-29-2009, 10:17 PM
:dozey:

ironheart did you actually read my post?

Two straight people does not a good family make. Orientation doesn't decide whether or not you can provide a stable home. There's plenty of screwed up straight couples. Why should they get to have children and not a loving, nurturing same sex couple? Don't seem fair.

Did you read my post?

And indeed, it's not exactly a choice. I mean, maybe it is for some people. But I've noticed, you usually don't choose who you're attracted to. You just ARE.

Did you read my post?

How can a religious group that preaches tolerance and "only God can judge" crap go and get all judge-y on people like that? "We have a loving God. But if you don't act and think and do things exactly the way we want you to, we say he doesn't love you." Eh? If he/she/it exists I don't think they'd be like that at all.

Firstly, where in this thread has anyone indicated the above? You setting up strawmen? Putting words in people's mouths?

Such a statement makes me question your definition of tolerance - tolerance is allowing a belief or behaviour you find offensive; speaking out against something you disagree with, is very different by trying to stop something by physical force.

What people may claim about God, and what God is like are two entirely different things - I have no doubt the state of the Church will depress Jesus greatly.

So guess what I'm going to ask again - did you read my post?

I think people take the bible way to literally anyway.

This is a considerably silly statement, firstly you would need to define too literal, and your statement hardly exudes confidence, that you have a great knowledge of a subject you are just swiping away.

There was a West Wing episode that illustrated that quite nicely I believe... Something about if we did exactly what the Bible says we'd be selling our daughters and beating our wives and crap... yeah.

There are already existing threads for this topic...


I don't really know anything. But I do know what I think is right and every human being deserves to be treated with same respect offered to every other human being.

Who here is being disrespectful?

Jae Onasi
06-30-2009, 02:01 AM
You mean like when we started allowing blacks to marry?The amount of melanocytes in skin cells which determines race has nothing to do with orientation, so race and orientation can't be compared. Orientation is not a genetically inherited trait like race is.

I disagree; I think it's fairly necessary to mention it, as a child raised by a single parent has a greater likelihood of being brought up in a traumatizing and negative way.I would like to ask if you have definitive data on that. :) If this is opinion, that's fine.

Also, I'm talking about ideal. What's the best thing for the kids?


It too faces the same controversy of same-sex marriage in households, although it is more accepted as a norm of society, which is quite unfortunate, if you ask me.Seeing as there's many, many domestic complications that arise that might negatively impact a child's life in a heterosexual monogamous household, it's likely, if not probable, that those will be apparent in homosexual monogamous household. All of this is opinion.

However, statistics are one thing, but actual mainstream acceptance is another. Kids produced from marriages either end up, by what society deems, as good or bad. I've seen an equally amount of well brought up and poorly raised children produced by a marriage, so I believe that the real impact on upbringing is not the type of the marriage that is relevant to a child's upbringing, but simply the personality and demeanor of the individual(s) that raises the child.I think that may be a little more simplistic than what happens in reality. There's genetics, environment, personality, social structures, health, etc., etc., etc. Some of it is the personality of the child as well. My daughter responds very differently to my personality and demeanor than my son, for instance.

More to the point, if, by some means, same-sex marriages are deemed as conducive to a child's negative upbringing, then most of those instances will be swept under the rug and ignored, much like what happens in heterosexual marriages and single-parent upbringings.I suppose that might happen. I hope not in any of these cases--it's better to deal with any problems up front, no matter what type of family. I think there are going to be challenges faced in straight families that won't be faced by gay families, and vice versa, just like there may well be certain benefits that gay families may have that straight ones don't, and vice versa. I have no way to confirm that, however--that's sheer thinking-out-loud.

Two straight people does not a good family make. Orientation doesn't decide whether or not you can provide a stable home.Please show me your evidence for this. I'm looking for the ideal family, not the exceptions.

There's plenty of screwed up straight couples. Why should they get to have children and not a loving, nurturing same sex couple? Don't seem fair.Life isn't fair.
Again, I'm asking about the ideal situation, not the screwed up ones. I'm asking 'Can good gay couples provide the same ideal as good straight couples can?' If so, I can go with it. If not, then the issues that make it less than ideal should be addressed, just like the issues that make straight families less than ideal should be addressed.

How can a religious group that preaches tolerance and "only God can judge" crap go and get all judge-y on people like that? "We have a loving God. But if you don't act and think and do things exactly the way we want you to, we say he doesn't love you." Well, some do. I'm not one of those people, and I said what I said very carefully so that I made no implication in the least like this. If I were one of those people, I wouldn't have gay friends, now would I? Also, each person's relationship with God is his/her own business. If someone asks me to share what I think about it, I do, and I will happily listen to the opinions of my friends on that. Are you telling me I need to be so tolerant that I violate my religious beliefs for myself? Or are you willing to show me the same tolerance you are demanding that I show you? You can't demand tolerance from someone and then not give it in return.

There was a West Wing episodeTV is not reality.

vanir
06-30-2009, 02:20 AM
The Lebensborn program tried to make politically correct families.

In Australia several decades ago Aboriginal children were abducted from their indigenous homes to be brought up politically correctly in Church missions the White Christian Way.

This is all nothing new. But clearly it is something backwards...

Jae Onasi
06-30-2009, 02:22 AM
Kidnapping and moving children to a foster home cannot in any way be construed as 'ideal'. ;)

Web Rider
06-30-2009, 02:32 AM
The amount of melanocytes in skin cells which determines race has nothing to do with orientation, so race and orientation can't be compared. Orientation is not a genetically inherited trait like race is.
Irrelevant. Not my point.

My point is that like gay marriage, non-white, and inter-racial marriage was once banned because people thought it was "bad" for children. Remember all that talk that STILL goes on about how mixed children will never know where they belong and be all confused and screwed up? Yeah, same argument.

vanir
06-30-2009, 02:36 AM
Kidnapping and moving children to a foster home cannot in any way be construed as 'ideal'.
Exactly. I am concerned about any court rulings on this matter, of what is to become of those children deemed in unhealthy environments due to sexual orientation of the parents?
There will always be the case of divorcee coming out of the closet as a single parent, what if the other parent is a worse proposition (for example, criminally so) or is not around (dead, left the country, committed suicide when their partner gave them the news).

And then where do we draw the line with politically correct parentage?


I should also like to make a point for Jae, whose opinions on the matter are perfectly responsible and well reasoned, just a small thing about race and genetics. At present the scientific community firstly (since the mapping of DNA ca.mid-90's) has put the final word on "race" that no greater genetic variation exists outside any cultural or regional group than within the group, ie. race does not exist due to a small body of common ancestral lineage. This secondly places any assertions of racial difference into the political and cultural category only, so racism is a reasonable comparison to any other form of bigotry for example, or a distinction of which is the same as a distinction for any other political and subcultural reasons (such as sexuality).
By the same token, no "gay gene" has yet been identified and thus it must be regarded as a subculture rather than a medical disposition (ie. psychological but not psychiatric).

Really?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090616122106.htm

Evidence suggestions your claim is wrong. Just because you want to see it as a choice does not make it so. If not "genetic", it is at least widespread enough throughout life to suggest that condemning it isn't going to make it go away.

My science group (ranges from PhD physicists to anthropic philosophers) has been studying this article recently.
The findings are inconclusive relative to human sexuality, stated in the article.

This in no way belies its importance, and the importance of tolerance for good clear thinking in a scientific manner as well as just plain good morality.

I'd just like to say I fully support gay couples in all endeavours and with good conscience.

Insignia_Enithma
06-30-2009, 05:12 AM
We outlaw divorce?

Since between 41% and 50% of marriages end in divorce in the U.S. I’d say that is more threatening to the “so-called” traditional family than gay marriage.

But what of peoples free will, if someone isn't happy in a relationship, marriage or not who are we to say they shouldn't be able to leave that relationship just because a child is involved, if that where the case I think it would do more damage then good.


It would be great if ever child would have their biological parents to help raise them, but a single mother, single father, step-parent, adoptive parent or gay parent can raise a child provided they love and care for that child by putting the child’s interest above their own.

For the record, I was raised by a single working mother (until age 9, my father left before I was born after 13 years of marriage) and although she is straight I have no doubt she could have done the same if she were gay.


Depending on how a Gay Couple come into parenthood (Adoption, Immaculate Conception ect) it would be very easy especially with the latter to love the child and put its needs above there own. In the former, if the child is adopted young, then there shouldn't be to much of a problem. As long as the Gay Couple are in a stable loving relationship and so therefor provide a health environment for a child to grow up in, the child should turn out great.


This is a very curious statement for several reasons - firstly, please qualify what you mean by "open minded" and why this is a positive thing? Most people I meet seem to consider themselves open minded - have you ever met a close minded person. Secondly - why is being accepting of people who live alternative life styles necessarily a good thing? What happens if we become so "open minded" that a Serial Killers alternative life style is "accepted"?

I consider someone who is open minded to consider all parts of a new ideal or life style before deeming them good or bad, the same can be applied to religion and all kinds of other things. Even if in the end it turns out they still disagree with the views of certain people ect, as long as they see and recognize the positives and the negatives then I accept they are open. Have I ever met a close minded person? Yes several hundred all who made my time in school a living hell and in the fast five years have sent me to hospital, broken my nose and in a gang of up to twenty attacked me. Because my mum was gay and because I was not part of the crowd (I'm not racist for a start).
You mean like when we started allowing blacks to marry?

Since when is a heterosexual upbringing a positive one? Isn't it just the "default" one?

Having gay friends doesn't mean that you can't be against gay marriage. I know a good dozen people who have gay friends, but wouldn't ever want to see them get married.

Though heterosexual upbringings are the default, and its is questionable if they are the "best" or most stable. What really is a stable environment for a child to grow up in. I guarantee no situation is 100% perfect.

jonathan7
06-30-2009, 05:52 AM
I consider someone who is open minded to consider all parts of a new ideal or life style before deeming them good or bad, the same can be applied to religion and all kinds of other things. Even if in the end it turns out they still disagree with the views of certain people ect, as long as they see and recognize the positives and the negatives then I accept they are open.

So you decide who is "open-minded" and "close minded"? Is this in of itself not "close minded"?

The essential part of my point is everyone is close minded to a greater or lesser extent - we are all influenced by our culture, and cannot escape the the fact our minds are bound by our own knowledge and perceptions.

Have I ever met a close minded person? Yes several hundred all who made my time in school a living hell and in the fast five years have sent me to hospital, broken my nose and in a gang of up to twenty attacked me. Because my mum was gay and because I was not part of the crowd (I'm not racist for a start).

I'm sorry to heat this :(

Somewhat pertinent to topic;

New India Government, to repeal anti-gay laws;

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6597715.ece

Homosexuality and the animal kingdom;

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article6514861.ece

Insignia_Enithma
06-30-2009, 06:23 AM
So you decide who is "open-minded" and "close minded"? Is this in of itself not "close minded"?


I guess it could be seen as close minded, in fact I am probably a lot more close minded then I realize sometimes (especially to people I myself see as close minded).

Q
06-30-2009, 06:48 AM
Have I ever met a close minded person? Yes several hundred all who made my time in school a living hell and in the fast five years have sent me to hospital, broken my nose and in a gang of up to twenty attacked me. Because my mum was gay and because I was not part of the crowd (I'm not racist for a start).
Hi. :)

You need to do yourself and society a favor by sending these people to jail or reform school. You can do this by investing in a digital spy cam that you can conceal on your person to record all of this abuse and using the recordings to bring charges against the offenders. You are not helping yourself or anyone else by tolerating violent behavior like that. Make a few of them pay and the rest will think twice before messing with you again.

Insignia_Enithma
06-30-2009, 07:42 AM
Hi. :)

You need to do yourself and society a favor by sending these people to jail or reform school. You can do this by investing in a digital spy cam that you can conceal on your person to record all of this abuse and using the recordings to bring charges against the offenders. You are not helping yourself or anyone else by tolerating violent behavior like that. Make a few of them pay and the rest will think twice before messing with you again.

Well, where do I get started.

We tried getting the police involved, the school wouldn't do anything, I've even gone to a meating between the board of governors (this is the uk btw) and they said the school had failed the first step (not allowing bullying) and said nothing about helping stop it. One fo the beatings I go t they filmed it an even though the school head saw the video he did very little a slap on the back of the hand. Also I dont have the money for a digital camera, but believe me when my kids (should i have some) go to school I'm going to deal with the whole thing evry harshly, as in police will be involved from the start. I have considered sevral times writing a letter to the school to the BoE but I'm jsut not sure fi that would help...

Q
06-30-2009, 09:04 AM
You mean to tell me that this ****'s been caught on film and still nothing has been done about it?!

Have you gotten a lawyer? If not, then I think it's about time that you hired an attorney, preferably one of the ruthless, slimy variety, and sued the **** out of the school. Sometimes people won't start to behave themselves until you show them that you're damn serious by hiring an attorney and having said attorney contact them.

mimartin
06-30-2009, 09:27 AM
But what of peoples free will, if someone isn't happy in a relationship, marriage or not who are we to say they shouldn't be able to leave that relationship just because a child is involved, if that where the case I think it would do more damage then good. Context can be your friend. If you read the question I quoted you will see that this is my sarcastic ‘red herring’ reply to a ‘red herring’ question. ;) Depending on how a Gay Couple come into parenthood (Adoption, Immaculate Conception ect) it would be very easy especially with the latter to love the child and put its needs above there own. In the former, if the child is adopted young, then there shouldn't be to much of a problem. As long as the Gay Couple are in a stable loving relationship and so therefor provide a health environment for a child to grow up in, the child should turn out great. Wouldn’t that be the same for any couple, straight or homosexual?

Oh, there are no guarantees how the child will grow up no matter the environment. A good environment may give the child a better chance to grow into a responsible adult, but it is also up to the child. Don’t believe me? Explain the difference in adult siblings that grew up in the same environment.

True_Avery
06-30-2009, 09:54 AM
You mean to tell me that this ****'s been caught on film and still nothing has been done about it?!

Have you gotten a lawyer? If not, then I think it's about time that you hired an attorney, preferably one of the ruthless, slimy variety, and sued the **** out of the school. Sometimes people won't start to behave themselves until you show them that you're damn serious by hiring an attorney and having said attorney contact them.
Good luck. My little cousin was pulled out of school by my aunt because he was physically beaten by a group of kids on a near daily basis. She told the school to get involved, but they said that matters like this were beyond their jurisdiction. She went to the police, and they said there was nothing they could do about school yard high jinx. She just pulled him from school, and I doubt even an attorney would have helped. Besides, she doesn't have the money for one anyway.

I got picked on and got into fights in elementary school all the time. My High School is the only school that I've known that didn't put up with that ****, however it was a Charter school and not a Public.

Have I ever met a close minded person? Yes several hundred all who made my time in school a living hell and in the fast five years have sent me to hospital, broken my nose and in a gang of up to twenty attacked me. Because my mum was gay and because I was not part of the crowd (I'm not racist for a start).
And this would be why I didn't come out of the closet in school, and have not outside of the internet. Granted, my school was incredibly strict on fighting rules (I once almost got expelled for yelling at some kid), a gay kid at a nearby school came out and then a day later was jumped and beaten to death by a mob of kids with bats. Yes, baseball bats. I didn't dare try considering that half of the school's cars had Christian stickers on them.

I'm sorry this happened to you, and my wishes go out to you and your mother. My mother is a closet bisexual, so I understand to a degree.

Insignia_Enithma
06-30-2009, 09:57 AM
Good luck. My little cousin was pulled out of school by my aunt because he was physically beaten by a group of kids on a near daily basis. She told the school to get involved, but they said that matters like this were beyond their jurisdiction. She went to the police, and they said there was nothing they could do about school yard high jinx. She just pulled him from school, and I doubt even an attorney would have helped. Besides, she doesn't have the money for one anyway.

I got picked on and got into fights in elementary school all the time. My High School is the only school that I've known that didn't put up with that ****, however it was a Charter school and not a Public.


And this would be why I didn't come out of the closet in school, and have not outside of the internet. Granted, my school was incredibly strict on fighting rules (I once almost got expelled for yelling at some kid), a gay kid at a nearby school came out and then a day later was jumped and beaten to death by a mob of kids with bats. Yes, baseball bats. I didn't dare try considering that half of the school's cars had christian stickers on them.

I'm sorry this happened to you, and my wishes go out to you and your mother. My mother is a closet bisexual, so I understand to a degree.

Funny enough six months ago I was pulled out of school, but I was so damaged (thankfully I've had lots of counseling) that I was still very distressed. And thank you for the wishes, it does make me feel a bit happy that there are some people (whoever you really are :thmbup1:) that are actually understanding :)

JediAthos
06-30-2009, 10:05 AM
It's so sad that people still act that way, and what's even worse that no one would do anything about it.

When in was in high school one of my best friends came out to me as being gay. It was kind of funny but reaction at the time was "okay..and?" He told me that he just wanted to let me know. I didn't have a problem with it then(1996 maybe) and I wouldn't have a problem with it now.

I hope, as a parent, that I can raise my children(2 1/2 and 18 months) to be act better than the children that treated the both of you so cruelly.

True_Avery
06-30-2009, 10:13 AM
Funny enough six months ago I was pulled out of school, but I was so damaged (thankfully I've had lots of counseling) that I was still very distressed.
Yeah, I know where you're coming from on that (nowhere near to your degree, but I understand). I was very fragile in kindergarten and elementary school so I basically became my classes' punching bag in every class I was in. I'd either get incredibly angry, or run out of class and hide somewhere on school grounds until school was over. If this was outside of class, it would escalate into a fight. Mother almost pulled me out of school because it was making me an emotional sideshow. Middle school almost got me sent to, and I'm not joking, a nearby school for the delinquent/emotionally unstable children since I could no longer function around other people. Thankfully that didn't happen, but I did get relegated to a counseling classroom separate from the main school. After 4 years of counseling I got over a lot of it, but it left me with a fear of commitment, a hermit attitude, and a very cynical outlook on life. Hopefully you can come out of it better than I did.

And thank you for the wishes, it does make me feel a bit happy that there are some people (whoever you really are :thmbup1:) that are actually understanding :)
Glad to be of service then. If you want to continue talking at all, my profile/PM box is always open. I fear I might be taking things off-topic.

Insignia_Enithma
06-30-2009, 10:20 AM
Yeah, I know where you're coming from on that (nowhere near to your degree, but I understand). I was very fragile in kindergarten and elementary school so I basically became my classes' punching bag in every class I was in. I'd either get incredibly angry, or run out of class and hide somewhere on school grounds until school was over. If this was outside of class, it would escalate into a fight. Mother almost pulled me out of school because it was making me an emotional sideshow. Middle school almost got me sent to, and I'm not joking, a nearby school for the delinquent/emotionally unstable children since I could no longer function around other people. Thankfully that didn't happen, but I did get relegated to a counseling classroom separate from the main school. After 4 years of counseling I got over a lot of it, but it left me with a fear of commitment, a hermit attitude, and a very cynical outlook on life. Hopefully you can come out of it better than I did.


Glad to be of service then. If you want to continue talking at all, my profile/PM box is always open. I fear I might be taking things off-topic.
Well those six months out of school have done me good I actually really beefed up to muscle wise, and so now anyone who has picked a fight thinks twice.

Yeh I fear we have taken this off topic... what was it we where talking about again?

Soemthing about same-sex couples and children right?

Jae Onasi
06-30-2009, 05:42 PM
Let me be clear on this--at NO time should someone resort to violence because of gender issues, race, etc.--that's just nuts, and I'm sorry for anyone who's had to go through horrible things because of it.

It is extremely difficult to come out of the closet, and it takes a lot of courage for that. Heck, it's difficult to live in the closet for that matter. I'm not trying to make your life harder if you're gay by asking tough questions about parenting norms. I'm just trying to sort through it all for my own purposes, too. I was raised in a different generation than most of you. My parents' generation was not pro-gay at all. It was considered a disease or aberrant lifestyle in their time. My generation is the first one dealing wth the quandary of whether it should be even considered a normal alternative or not, and I have seen a lot of studies pro and con. Understand that you are asking me to alter thinking on years of upbringing and a very strong religious conviction for a lifestyle that has not been considered a normal alternative except in the last 15 or 20 years or so. I'm honest enough to say I may not be able to fully make the leap that many of the rest of you have on accepting homosexuality itself as something considered normal, especially when it comes to raising kids. That does not mean I consider hating someone for being gay accaptable. I do not. I love my gay family members and friends as much as my straight ones. I will never condone abuse of someone for any reason. If you consider that a fault on my part, I hope you can be forgiving of my failure.

jrrtoken
06-30-2009, 07:06 PM
I would like to ask if you have definitive data on that. :) If this is opinion, that's fine.Gladly.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/02/04/health/main539283.shtml
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Family/BG1373.cfmAll of this is opinion.It is, but so is the notion that kids would be worse off in a same-sex parented household than a opposite-sex one.

Allronix
06-30-2009, 08:32 PM
The ideal environment is two (or more) loving, stable, responsible ADULTS, as far as I'm concerned. Oh, and when I say the "or more," I mean anything from godparents and grandparents to a stable polyamorus arrangement - though the latter is gonna take some explaining as the tyke grows up.

You can be gay, partnered and have your act together, or you could be giving the two bimbos from Absolutely Fabulous a run for their money.

You could be heterosexual, married, two jobs, a full fridge, leave no bruises, but destroy a kid with your words. You could also be Ward and June Cleaver reincarnate.

But if the kids' physical needs are met and has people who watch out for them, teach them right and wrong, and can take care of themselves as well as the kids? Gender doesn't much matter. the only time it might is if you're a single mom or a lesbian couple with a son or a single dad or gay men with a daughter - the kid could use role models of the same gender, but that's where uncles, aunts, and family friends are a blessing.

Children can be cruel, yes. They'll find any damn reason to be. Your average K-12 school is crawling with vicious little sociopaths that could give the Korrban academy stellar recruits. No matter what you do, no matter how much you try, you aren't going to win with those monsters, so factoring them into the decision is a non-issue.