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True_Avery
07-05-2009, 11:28 PM
Seeing as the other thread was doomed from the start due to my harsh opinion of the game, let me try again.

Why do you think TSL has so far been ignored by Bioware? There are only a few things crossing over, like the True Sith and so on yet some fairly large parts have been omitted from things like the Timeline.

Is Bioware just ignoring it or do you think there is another reason?

I am heavily biased towards TSL, so I'll sit back for awhile on this thread and cool off.

Web Rider
07-06-2009, 03:43 AM
Not enough girl-on-girl action.

And KOTOR leaves us with a more solid ending.

adamqd
07-06-2009, 04:39 AM
TSL was crap... I joke, well I dont, I think it was rubbish compared to KotOR 1, but I realize that it was pretty deep and stepped out of the box... well, into a black hole (Anyone would think Tim Burton wrote it, with a little help from Tolkien) But a lot of people loved it. I genuinely dont think Bioware are omitting it because it's not their game, more that they have an Idea of where the story they started went (not where Avellone took it) and lets face it, EU is Canon, but Bioware hold the contract again, and I'm pretty sure they're free to retcon as they please, I doubt Lucas Licencing would stop them changing or leaving out TSL.

Insignia_Enithma
07-06-2009, 05:06 AM
Maybe they just haven't mentioned parts of the TSL plot because it isn't all that necessary. I do recall someone saying that all the Exile had done would be forgotten.

jrrtoken
07-06-2009, 09:00 AM
Partially it's due to the fact that essentially 50% of KotOR players absolutely hated TSL, while the other half completely adored it. TSL invokes a gamut of emotions, whether love or hate, and that can be an overall benefit or deterrent for LucasArts.

Partially, it's the fact that it was a different story that many disliked, especially Kreia. Even Avellone said that they got much hate mail complaining about "that crusty annoying lady", and that's probably another reason why it was downplayed so much. Though, truly, the largest reason was the fact that Obsidian was given a 13-month development cycle, and seeing as the goal was to create a CRPG on the same scale of KotOR, which was given several years for development, the game would be incomplete from the start. Of course, matters were made worse when the development time shortened to 10 months, which meant extreme working hours and huge content cuts. Part of thus is Obsidian's fault for not organizing fast enough, but I place the largest blame on LucasArts, as they essentially showed an immense amount of greed by rushing development for the holidays.

Still, through it all, I'm surprised by the large amount of content within the final product, warts and all. Yet, no one will forget the cut content of the game that could've been, and draws equally negative opinions of LucasArts and Obsidian. I believe that LucasArts wants to try to put that behind them, and omitting a game from a future product is the same as a defacing a statue of a former leader or burning the records of a prior negative event. LucasArts wants to do away with imperfections, and the largest way to do that would be to simply not mention them. That's why they've probably instructed BioWare to place TOR far outside of the KotOR universe, while still retaining a KotOR feel.

Sabretooth
07-06-2009, 09:13 AM
Agreed, KotOR II's events were largely under the carpet, as far as epic adventures go. Nobody in the galaxy knew what had exactly happened, the only really major event being that Telos was invaded by some sort of a straggler Sith and some other events were mysteriously resolved around the same time (Onderon etc.)

It's kind of annoying, but plausible I guess.

Miltiades
07-06-2009, 10:19 AM
The majority of the galaxy definitely didn't know exactly what was happening in KotOR II, that is right, especially not that Sith were again opposing Jedi, when it was the general consensus that both parties had disappeared.

On the other hand, the Exile was public knowledge to a whole bunch of parties: the Jedi, the Sith, the Republic army, Bounty Hunters. Her involvement in the Onderon Civil War, Telos Attack, the destruction of Peragus, the Bounty Hunter war on Nar Shaddaa and the Khoonda battle on Dantooine didn't go by unnoticed. The "Last of the Jedi" must've sent a buzz throughout the whole sector, and far beyond. I can understand that after 300 years, and especially when the galaxy is in another war with the Sith, the common folk would remember Revan rather than the Exile. But to a few parties, the Republic army and the Jedi, her deeds must've have been closely followed and recorded afterwards. The Republic army, with Carth in a pivotal role, must've been aware of a remnant Sith army and the role the Exile could play in its destruction. The Jedi must've remembered her for playing a vital role in rebuilding the Jedi Order, especially when Visas and Mical are important members of that Jedi Order.

So, in short, I can agree with BioWare's decision for the galaxy not to be aware of what happened after the Jedi Civil War, or for the people just thinking it the aftermath of the Jedi Civil War, especially after 300 years. What bothers me, though, is that the timeline won't mention the Sith Civil War. The holorecords being told by a Jedi Master and Keeper of the Archives, you'd expect some knowledge of that period from that person. At least, that's the impression I get when I look at the timelines, perhaps it'll be mentioned in the 'Jedi Civil War' record.

I also don't think BioWare is ignoring KotOR II. As mentioned, the True Sith threat is spawned directly from that game, and BioWare already confirmed that for the KotOR fans, the fates of Revan and the Exile will be revealed. TOR is mainly focusing on its own time, and not on either KotOR or KotOR II. But there'll be plenty of lore for fans of both games, I think.

Tommycat
07-08-2009, 10:11 PM
I actually, think of it like those Japanese soldiers who hadn't heard that WWII had ended. Rumors and speculation, and a little truth, but for the most part not listed in the major events.

Combine that with the initial hatred of the jedi by the average person.Most jedi would have been in hiding. Any dissappearances would have been chalked up to that hatred.

Last of the Jedi: I would chalk that up to "it's true, from a certain perspective." I mean honestly, think about it. Who was it that said the exile was the last? If Kreia told me water was wet, I'd still check to make sure. Kreia wasn't exactly the most forthright person.

urluckyday
07-08-2009, 10:43 PM
^So you think that Bioware is basically considering most of TSL as non-canon for their story in general.

Sabretooth
07-09-2009, 12:37 AM
It's more like TSL is irrelevant to TOR than ignored. None of the events that occurred in TSL had any direct or apparent results in the galaxy. Contrast this with KotOR, which itself starts during the Jedi Civil War, and Revan decides the fate of a galaxy: he can crush the Sith, or the Republic, his choice.

In TSL, the Exile himself worked in the shadows and fought shadows, like an secret operative. His enemies were dissociated bands of Sith, that were systematically but covertly crippling the Republic in preparation for something of an invasion. The Exile defeated them (again, covertly: Nihilus on his Unknown Regions-roving spaceship, Sion and Kreia in Malachor, a place unknown to but a few in the galaxy).

The Exile was definitely a hero, but an unsung hero. He saved the Republic by defeating the impending Sith threat, but nobody knew of his accomplishments.

And no, I don't know which genders are canon goddamit.

JediAthos
07-09-2009, 08:38 PM
The game itself aside I would say that the major events of TSL wouldn't be unknown...the attempted revolt on Onderon would certainly be recorded as I would think would be the destruction of Peragus, and the battle above Telos.

Also Bastila/Carth were at least observers of what went on during TSL so I would think at some point Bastila, assuming she remained a Jedi, might make some record of the events.

That is all mostly speculation of course, and there may yet be some mention of the events in TOR who knows. (Unless Bioware has said something that I've missed.) On the other hand, as has already been said, the events of TSL may not be relevant to the story Bioware plans to tell.

Darth Avlectus
07-09-2009, 09:25 PM
^^^@ Sabre: Ignorance is bliss. :dev11:

Seeing as the other thread was doomed from the start due to my harsh opinion of the game, let me try again.

Why do you think TSL has so far been ignored by Bioware? There are only a few things crossing over, like the True Sith and so on yet some fairly large parts have been omitted from things like the Timeline.

Is Bioware just ignoring it or do you think there is another reason?

I am heavily biased towards TSL, so I'll sit back for awhile on this thread and cool off.

Yes. Given Chris Avellone said some pretty harsh stuff recently, I am further left to wonder if he isn't being paid to trash his own company.

Speculation aside, I think it is public's general pre-judging expectations and how everyone wants the stories and their endings to be these all happy friendly sunny D***shine cream of the crap. Because TSL was a darker, sadder, and dare I say realer story it got a net neutral response. People SUCK!

(No I *don't* think I am better than any of them--so put that in your pipe and smoke it, sherlock wisecrackers!)

That and I think uncle george is becoming a lightsaber color nazi in his old age.

It was rather open ended and had too many variables to encompass. I have even tried to think up stories for a potential K3--any of them either were highly dependent on K1 or K2, or completely disjointed from the two as though they were largely irrelevant. So I am sort of not surprised it ended up like it has, though pity for K2 because that one potentially has greater writer's creative potential. As much some of my agreeing college professor friends thought anyway.

<snip> But a lot of people loved it. I genuinely dont think Bioware are omitting it because it's not their game, more that they have an Idea of where the story they started went (not where Avellone took it) and lets face it, EU is Canon, but Bioware hold the contract again, and I'm pretty sure they're free to retcon as they please, I doubt Lucas Licencing would stop them changing or leaving out TSL.

Well, I like chicks who can fight. So long as they don't retcon what a hawt piece the exile was, I'll be cool with that much. :xp:

Seriously, though, I do think they will largely ignore TSL as opposed to invalidate it. Maybe try to fix what all came from it to give clarity and closure to it, peacefully. I know Drew Karpyshyn actually borrowed some minor elements and made indirect references to TSL in his Darth Bane novels. I am most curious, though, what the third upcoming "Dynasty of Evil" will cover. Spoiler Potential warning: Since Karpyshyn is also heavily involved with TOR, I can't help but think Origins of "Darth" will be gone into a little more in depth and whether it was Revan or Andeddu who first used the Darth title. Just speculation based upon the preliminary summary of the upcoming novel. Could be flawed deduction on my part--but he's writing TOR stories, so he would know something we don't this early. Not ruling anything out! In the least, I would not be surprised if there was mention made at least once of the characters we know more about. Or reference to some events of TSL from a largely obscured point of view.

Maybe they just haven't mentioned parts of the TSL plot because it isn't all that necessary. I do recall someone saying that all the Exile had done would be forgotten.
Where and who? I'd be most interested to know if you would not mind--please?


Partially, it's the fact that it was a different story that many disliked, especially Kreia. Even Avellone said that they got much hate mail complaining about "that crusty annoying lady", and that's probably another reason why it was downplayed so much. Though, truly, the largest reason was the fact that Obsidian was given a 13-month development cycle, and seeing as the goal was to create a CRPG on the same scale of KotOR, which was given several years for development, the game would be incomplete from the start. Of course, matters were made worse when the development time shortened to 10 months, which meant extreme working hours and huge content cuts. Part of thus is Obsidian's fault for not organizing fast enough, but I place the largest blame on LucasArts, as they essentially showed an immense amount of greed by rushing development for the holidays. Quoted For MAJOR Truth, there.

I personally think it was also a poorly managed money grab to help fund SW:ROTS as it was being produced around the same time. Just my opinion, but it makes complete sense considering they rushed the release for DEC 2004 and it was obviously before the movie was completed MAY 19, 2005.

Still, through it all, I'm surprised by the large amount of content within the final product, warts and all. Yet, no one will forget the cut content of the game that could've been, and draws equally negative opinions of LucasArts and Obsidian. Latter of which I'd say is mostly undeserved even if their organization was poor.

I believe that LucasArts wants to try to put that behind them, and omitting a game from a future product is the same as a defacing a statue of a former leader or burning the records of a prior negative event. LucasArts wants to do away with imperfections, and the largest way to do that would be to simply not mention them. That's why they've probably instructed BioWare to place TOR far outside of the KotOR universe, while still retaining a KotOR feel.

Don't know for sure but also, far enough behind the Jedi vs Sith war, that it probably sets up the stage on a large sacle for events to unfold for the Darth Bane novels. Some of which will probably connect with Karpyshyn's upcoming Novel.

*brevity* (agreed btw)

I can understand that after 300 years, and especially when the galaxy is in another war with the Sith, the common folk would remember Revan rather than the Exile.

I'd have a hard time believing Exile won't at least get a mention. Wikipedia had mentioned that the Exile was responsible for rebuilding the Jedi Order before leaving to follow Revan in time. Not sure if this was edited out as fanon or what. Though I could swear that a canon source (Jedi vs Sith essential guide) did say that. Maybe I'm mistaken. However, that statue in the preview video of TOR standing next to what looked like the statue of Revan could have been for the Exile. Like she was an equally important, but lesser known figure in history.

But to a few parties, the Republic army and the Jedi, her deeds must've have been closely followed and recorded afterwards. The Republic army, with Carth in a pivotal role, must've been aware of a remnant Sith army and the role the Exile could play in its destruction. The Jedi must've remembered her for playing a vital role in rebuilding the Jedi Order, especially when Visas and Mical are important members of that Jedi Order. I totally agree, there. Do not forget, Mira and Kreia's prediction for what would happen--I think there is a lot implied there.

So, in short, I can agree with BioWare's decision for the galaxy not to be aware of what happened after the Jedi Civil War, or for the people just thinking it the aftermath of the Jedi Civil War, especially after 300 years. What bothers me, though, is that the timeline won't mention the Sith Civil War. The holorecords being told by a Jedi Master and Keeper of the Archives, you'd expect some knowledge of that period from that person. At least, that's the impression I get when I look at the timelines, perhaps it'll be mentioned in the 'Jedi Civil War' record. Well, it is rather vague and broad in novels around ROTS, but yes I do imagine you are correct as the Jedi Civil War is mentioned a few times even then. So I am sure at the very least the generation 300 years later than Revan are a bit more apprised considering it's much closer in time as opposed to nearly 4,000 years later.

I also don't think BioWare is completely ignoring KotOR II. Fixed. :D

As for the TSL sith "stragglers": While I do believe they were largely aware of what lurked beyond the outer rim, I don't believe they were paving the way. I believe they were part of the distraction by the true sith so that most thought it was aftermath of Malak and Revan. At the very least it would keep the wary eyed wonderer's eye distracted and away from them.

Kreia: knew but was neutral.
Sion: Knew, and might have been paving the way, though it is possible he was merely regurgitating the writing on the wall since his days in Exar Kun's militia 40+ years earlier.
Nihilus: knew, but didn't care for the true sith. In time I imagine probably would have come after them had he succeeded against the Exile. And wiped them out as his was a threat that would have killed all life...or I guess, maybe petered off after a time. As though he would have killed all force sensitives but lost his mind from starvation like a primal animal and died. And the galaxy went on.

Tommycat
07-10-2009, 01:52 AM
Again, don't put too much stock in Kreia's predictions or what she says. Kreia called the exile the last of the Jedi, yet there was Bastilla. So at least ONE other Jedi was in existence. Of course you can also take it as "you are the last" as in she(the exile) would be the end of the Jedi.

No mention of the Sith civil war: Why would the Jedi keep records of events they had no part in? From a Jedi's perspective it's a bit outside their history. It would be like including the 6 day war in US history.

Onderon was a minor skirmish. in the grand scheme of things. Compare the events of TSL with the events of KotOR. TSL didn't have a MASSIVE Republic and Jedi mobilization. Almost everything was done in secret. Carth kept the Exile secret. Bastilla was more concerned with finding out about Revan. Revan was a name. People can remember a name. The exile... just some person. Not even important enough to HAVE a name in the history books. Why would history record about the deeds of a person with no name? Is there any history written about someone with no name? How about major events involving some unknown person. Lets face it. The Exile is a nobody that did great things that nearly nobody knows about.

Trench
07-10-2009, 01:55 AM
LucasArts didn't give Obsidian enough time to bring TSL up to KotOR standards. Now their phasing it out to hide their own mistake. Given enough time, TSL might have been as good as KotOR.

Cabron
07-10-2009, 02:41 AM
Mmm interesting thread
I myself rather fancied TSL, the story might have been hacked a bit but the fighting was as invigorating as ever, and some of the developments of the NPCs from KOTOR were worth the trip. Its sort of like your favorite characters from a book; you might just read the next to find out what happened to them even if the book series itself might have gone south (Wheel of Time anyone?)
As for the the posible repercutions that TSL might have in the new game and its timeline; well it was more of a personal journey for the characters involved rather than a galaxy wide affair like the first game. I mean after the havok from the first game the jedi are on the run and the whole galaxy is rather foucused on other things rather than finding out what those naughty jedi are up to. Its like KOTOR was the big picture and TSL was more of a side story. I dont blame Obsidian for the rather unfinished port they droped on the PC gamers lap (especialy those dreadful lo res videos) but the greed of certain involved parties who just couldnt have give the game at least 6 more months to polish and finish the extra content that was left out

Miltiades
07-10-2009, 10:43 AM
No mention of the Sith civil war: Why would the Jedi keep records of events they had no part in? From a Jedi's perspective it's a bit outside their history. It would be like including the 6 day war in US history. The fact most of the remaining Jedi were killed in an instance during that Sith Civil War comes to mind. The fact that the Exile, a former Jedi and vital to rebuilding the Jedi Order through her apprentices, was the one to end the Sith Civil War as well.

And while you can argue that the Exile is a nobody to the galaxy, that no one knew what she accomplished, like I said, the Jedi knew, the Jedi would care, the Jedi would find it important.

kotorfan84
07-10-2009, 02:38 PM
Last of the Jedi: I would chalk that up to "it's true, from a certain perspective." I mean honestly, think about it. Who was it that said the exile was the last? If Kreia told me water was wet, I'd still check to make sure. Kreia wasn't exactly the most forthright person.

Actually she was pretty forthright with this. I believe after escaping Peragus, she told the exile he was the last of the jedi, and he asked what happened to them, some must have survived. She answered saying the ones that have, will not help us, so there were definately some, but they went into their own exile.

Tommycat
07-11-2009, 05:33 AM
The fact most of the remaining Jedi were killed in an instance during that Sith Civil War comes to mind. The fact that the Exile, a former Jedi and vital to rebuilding the Jedi Order through her apprentices, was the one to end the Sith Civil War as well.

And while you can argue that the Exile is a nobody to the galaxy, that no one knew what she accomplished, like I said, the Jedi knew, the Jedi would care, the Jedi would find it important.

Problem is that in the years following the Jedi Civil War, many people blamed the Jedi, so the Jedi could easily have chalked the deaths of most Jedi up to that hate. It might make a paragraph as part of another event. Hardly worth a dedicated timeline event. We don't know how many Jedi really survived. I make a point of bringing up Bastilla being in TSL as an example that not all Jedi were killed. So the rebuilding of the order needs not be done by the exile's half trained jedi.

So really, We can say the jedi MIGHT have known about the exile's accomplishments. Or they might not have.

Miltiades
07-11-2009, 09:53 AM
So the rebuilding of the order needs not be done by the exile's half trained jedi. The problem is, it was. At least Visas is mentioned as being vital in rebuilding the Jedi Order in a canon source (KotOR Campaign Guide). This also makes the argument about Jedi giving the hate on Jedi as the reason for their disappearance invalid. Also, what's the chance of the Jedi reasoning the blame on the Jedi by the people diminished their numbers as more likely than remnants of Malak's forces killing the remaining Jedi?

Plus, don't forget that Katarr was a dead spot in the Force, devoid of life. The place is evidence of something terrible happening, and Visas as a Jedi and only surviving member of the Miraluka on Katarr will have mentioned and perhaps even showed it to other Jedi.

Another argument I want to introduce is Deesra Luur Jada. You may remember him as an apprentice to Master Dorak in KotOR. Deesra survived the First Jedi Purge, became vital to the rebuilding of the Jedi Order (together with Visas, it seems) and the Enclave on Dantooine. Deesra made recordings of the Jedi Civil War and the events afterwards, recordings that survived 4,000 years (!) and came into the hands of Jedi Master Tionne Solusar. Of interest in this discussion is what he recorded on the aftermath of the Jedi Civil War:

If only the Sith threat had ended there. Since the destruction of the Star Forge, there have been reports of the existence of others, Sith calling themselves Darth Traya, Darth Sion, and Darth Nihilus. An unconfirmed report suggests that Nihilus was responsible for the catastrophe that killed all life on the planet Katarr last year, including the entire Jedi Convocation that had gathered there to discuss the future of our Order.

and:

Here, on Dantooine, Masters Zez-Kai Ell, Kavar, and Vrook Lamar all fell to Darth Traya.

Source: Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

While he talks about an unconfirmed report when he talks about Katarr, it's more than likely that he confirmed that report afterwards when he met with Visas. His recordings, after all, where made shortly after these events, when Visas and possibly other companions where still laying the foundations for the new Jedi Order, and only met with Deesra (who was gathering pupils already) after he had made those recordings.

Zerimar Nyliram
07-11-2009, 03:33 PM
I wouldn't say it's been omitted. The enemies in this game - the Sith - are based on the "true Sith" mentioned in The Sith Lords. I'd say that's pretty significant.

And to anyone who might suggest that the "true Sith" were an idea dating back to the first game based on the text from a loading screen, I would say that it is clear that they were not referring to the same people mentioned by Kreia in the sequel. They were talking about the Sith species that had gone extinct in that particular instance.

Haven't read this thread, by the way.

Lord of Hunger
07-11-2009, 03:37 PM
Again, one thing I would like point out as I have in other threads is that the personal epic concept that is the core of TOR originates in TSL. That alone means that Bioware and LucasArts realized that a complete TSL would be a massive success. Bioware, which has usually done Quest To Stop The Evil Overlord (QTSTEO) stories, most likely understood that personal epics may draw both massive love and hate but at least have a stronger reaction since the QTSTEO stories have been done to death. Had TSL been a complete game it would have surpassed KOTOR on every level and I think once someone (Team Gizka or whoever wants to give it another go) restores TSL's cut content it WILL surpass KOTOR on every level.

I also agree that much of what the Exile did would probably be covered up from the public eye, known only to the restored Jedi Order and the Galactic Republic. She would probably be less interesting to the Media, who would probably shove her aside in favor of Revan, the guy that all but destroyed the Galactic Republic and the Jedi Order. Having read Sun Tzu's Art of War, one recognizes that one can win a war without winning battles. The Jedi may have won the Battle of Rakata Prime and destroyed the Sith Empire, but Revan (through both his actions and Malak's) nearly succeed in doing what he set out to do: destroying the Republic. Granted Revan wanted to preserve the infrastructure but the overall goal was to remove the rusty shield of the Senate and replace it with the Sith Empire.

Blix
07-11-2009, 03:46 PM
BW might only be using some things from TSL because LA suggested (ordered) the idea, other than that it wouldn't surprise me if BW just did their own thing completely neglecting that TSL ever existed.

Miltiades
07-11-2009, 04:44 PM
it wouldn't surprise me if BW just did their own thing completely neglecting that TSL ever existed. Like has been said before, the True Sith idea comes from TSL, so we can rule out BioWare completely neglecting the game.

Zerimar Nyliram
07-12-2009, 02:05 PM
Again, one thing I would like point out as I have in other threads is that the personal epic concept that is the core of TOR originates in TSL. That alone means that Bioware and LucasArts realized that a complete TSL would be a massive success. Bioware, which has usually done Quest To Stop The Evil Overlord (QTSTEO) stories, most likely understood that personal epics may draw both massive love and hate but at least have a stronger reaction since the QTSTEO stories have been done to death. Had TSL been a complete game it would have surpassed KOTOR on every level and I think once someone (Team Gizka or whoever wants to give it another go) restores TSL's cut content it WILL surpass KOTOR on every level.

I agree one hundred percent. I've always been of the opinion that TSL may have outshone KOTOR had Obsidian been permitted to finish the game. When I played it for the first time, for about the first third of the game I thought to myself, You know, this game may just be better than the first. As such, I am very optimistic that Team Gizka will restore much of the game's original greatness.

It is also worth noting that the blame for what happened to TSL lies on the shoulders of LucasArts, not Obsidian. Obsidian is a very talented company and they produce quality games. It was LucasArts who rushed the release, thus laying on Obsidian the the burden of wrapping it all up rather frantically in such a short period of time.

Another interesting thing to think about: LucasArts rushed TSL's release by nearly six months so as to be available for Christmas of 2004, when sales are generally at their peak. But another opportunity for high sales rates would have been present five months later, with the premiere of Revenge of the Sith in theaters. I remember I tried to buy TSL around that time, since it had been coming down in price a bit in the months since its release; but it - along all Star Wars games at the time - was back up to its original retail price since Star Wars was popular at that time, and all merchandise were selling like mad.

Had LucasArts borne this in mind, they could have made nearly or just as much on sales as they would have at Christmas, and we would have gotten a more complete game.

Darth Avlectus
07-12-2009, 07:43 PM
Again, don't put too much stock in Kreia's predictions or what she says. Kreia called the exile the last of the Jedi, yet there was Bastilla.

You're free to debate about her here, and I'd certainly welcome it, home boy.
http://lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=197220


So at least ONE other Jedi was in existence. Of course you can also take it as "you are the last" as in she(the exile) would be the end of the Jedi.

Depends actually. Why was she not involved on some level in TSL? Besides the obvious, I have my theory and others have a slightly different theory. Yes, she may well have been in hiding, however, that does not discount the fact she basically was a cahoots with Carth the whole time and watching the Exile. She may have been defacto for some reason is all I'm getting at, but that may be wrong.

However, you are right not to put too much stock into Kreia's words. Spoiler: You don't die when she dies/you kill her.

No mention of the Sith civil war: Why would the Jedi keep records of events they had no part in? From a Jedi's perspective it's a bit outside their history. It would be like including the 6 day war in US history. To the contrary, the Jedi were almost wiped out. While I can understand brushing that aside or at least keeping it out of the public eye, to say it was aside their history as the identity of the Jedi, that's taking it just a bit far. May not have been potential immediate disater on the galactic scale, but it had its bearing and it will always be a sort of stained area marking that point in galactic history.

Onderon was a minor skirmish. in the grand scheme of things. Compare the events of TSL with the events of KotOR. TSL didn't have a MASSIVE Republic and Jedi mobilization. Almost everything was done in secret. Carth kept the Exile secret. Bastilla was more concerned with finding out about Revan. Revan was a name. People can remember a name. The exile... just some person. Not even important enough to HAVE a name in the history books. Why would history record about the deeds of a person with no name?

Assuming she was a nobody, which she was not: her actions indirectly lead to the jedi order coming back after nearly being wiped off the face of the galaxy.

Is there any history written about someone with no name? How about major events involving some unknown person. Lets face it. The Exile is a nobody that did great things that nearly nobody knows about.
Or she merely appreciated anonymity--however, I'd take bets that those who trained under her ended up writing something about her.

The fact most of the remaining Jedi were killed in an instance during that Sith Civil War comes to mind. The fact that the Exile, a former Jedi and vital to rebuilding the Jedi Order through her apprentices, was the one to end the Sith Civil War as well. QFT

We don't know how many Jedi really survived. I make a point of bringing up Bastilla being in TSL as an example that not all Jedi were killed. So the rebuilding of the order needs not be done by the exile's half trained jedi. No, but after the fall of the only 3 masters left, The exile's apprentices were a central sort of team for coordinating and notifying the remaining Jedi left in the galaxy to let them know the threat was gone.

So really, We can say the jedi MIGHT have known about the exile's accomplishments. Or they might not have.

Fair enough.

The problem is, it was. At least Visas is mentioned as being vital in rebuilding the Jedi Order in a canon source (KotOR Campaign Guide). This also makes the argument about Jedi giving the hate on Jedi as the reason for their disappearance invalid. Also, what's the chance of the Jedi reasoning the blame on the Jedi by the people diminished their numbers as more likely than remnants of Malak's forces killing the remaining Jedi?

Just throwing it out here: Sith were not the only enemies of the Jedi, there were numerous others who hated them enough to chomp at the bit upon realizing the galaxy were nearly rid of them. But you have a good point,

Considering the truth about Nihilus (Kreia's tripe aside), though, maybe they are covering up b/c it is true "the less said about that one the better". Remember, the Legacy comics revealed there was a holocron of Darth Nihilus--now in the hands of new sith. Partial Spoiler w/ supposition: It may also be very well that although Nihilus was defeated and perhaps disintegrated, that his ghost may very well live on in some form. You would not want that kind of threat to return.

Plus, don't forget that Katarr was a dead spot in the Force, devoid of life. The place is evidence of something terrible happening, and Visas as a Jedi and only surviving member of the Miraluka on Katarr will have mentioned and perhaps even showed it to other Jedi.

Another argument I want to introduce is Deesra Luur Jada.
Ah, excellent detective work.

Source: Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force
I can vouch here, because I *have* that very book. This is true. I'll confirm anything you or anybody else here needs to know. (EXCELLENT buy for anyone who is looking to spruce up their home library, BTW).

*brevity*Bioware and LucasArts realized that a complete TSL would be a massive success.

This much is true as well as learning more about the true sith in K2 than in K1. K1 it is only merely made mention of in the loading screens.

Had TSL been a complete game it would have surpassed KOTOR on every level and I think once someone (Team Gizka or whoever wants to give it another go) restores TSL's cut content it WILL surpass KOTOR on every level. That will be interesting to see, indeed.

I also agree that much of what the Exile did would probably be covered up from the public eye, known only to the restored Jedi Order and the Galactic Republic. She would probably be less interesting to the Media, who would probably shove her aside in favor of Revan, the guy that all but destroyed the Galactic Republic and the Jedi Order. That and a bit of self preservation on the order's behalf concealing the truth of when they were nearly eradicated.

Having read Sun Tzu's Art of War, Let's chat sometime about this.


*Brevity*

While I agree with you about obsidian, completely...the truth is that Obsidian's name is still attached to what LA calls their big failure. There will always be crones who will attempt to poison the well and do it off others' naivety or ignorance to save face for LA--you and me both know that's total bull**** so it behooves us to inform future generations of the truth.

Another interesting thing to think about: LucasArts rushed TSL's release by nearly six months so as to be available for Christmas of 2004, when sales are generally at their peak. But another opportunity for high sales rates would have been present five months later, with the premiere of Revenge of the Sith in theaters. I remember I tried to buy TSL around that time, since it had been coming down in price a bit in the months since its release; but it - along all Star Wars games at the time - was back up to its original retail price since Star Wars was popular at that time, and all merchandise were selling like mad. QFE! QFT! TYVM!

You're the ONLY other person *I've seen* to make this connection on this site--not that there isn't others, just I haven't seen them yet. I suspected it was all a money grab as well, though for a slightly different reason. But that's pretty damn close to it. Praises to *you*, bro.

Had LucasArts borne this in mind, they could have made nearly or just as much on sales as they would have at Christmas, and we would have gotten a more complete game. Bah, it's all about money anymore. Hell, one of my sword play pals who remembers all the ROTJ merchandise with the ewoks and stuff told me that right there was when he saw the beginning of it; when George became somewhat more interested in the money than the fans. I realize this is cynical and blasphemous for me to say (especially here), but let's face it, everything has progressed in this manner after ESB if you look at it objectively enough. I'll always have some kind of love for it, but every time it gets botched, I'm going to suspect this is the reason why.

aner21
07-13-2009, 07:41 PM
You can say I'm not your typical player. I played TSL before KotoR I and I enjoyed it a lot.
I've played KotoR since and although it's a far more complete game than TSL (dialogues with party members for example) with more sidequests and an epic feel I still find TSL's story far more compelling.
Malak as a villan lacked a more indepth aproach (jedi turned sith turns on his sith master and tries to rule the galaxy_ hardly a very original idea, although it works for the game) at least in TSL you can discover the journey Kreia does towards the dark side, and how it mirrors Atris' own personal journey (don't forget LS is canon so she was probably spared by the Exile and was exiled herself (with a lot of sith and jedi holocrons in tow so in TOR she might be mentioned). And had the schedule remained unchanged Kreia's path could be altered by your choices, so your final boss would always be a reflection of your game choices (too bad THAT was scrapped as well).
And about ignoring TSL, I think the story has so much potential (the entire brianna storyline was deemed non canon because the exile was female for example) they would be foolish not to take full advantage of that.

P.S: Someone said something about the exile's name being unknown and how that was somehow related to the characters importance, well, revan isn't a real name either, it's short for a title he picked up when trying to enlist jedi to make war with the mandalorians: the Revanchist.

JediAthos
07-13-2009, 11:26 PM
You can say I'm not your typical player. I played TSL before KotoR I and I enjoyed it a lot.
I've played KotoR since and although it's a far more complete game than TSL (dialogues with party members for example) with more sidequests and an epic feel I still find TSL's story far more compelling.
Malak as a villan lacked a more indepth aproach (jedi turned sith turns on his sith master and tries to rule the galaxy_ hardly a very original idea, although it works for the game) at least in TSL you can discover the journey Kreia does towards the dark side, and how it mirrors Atris' own personal journey (don't forget LS is canon so she was probably spared by the Exile and was exiled herself (with a lot of sith and jedi holocrons in tow so in TOR she might be mentioned). And had the schedule remained unchanged Kreia's path could be altered by your choices, so your final boss would always be a reflection of your game choices (too bad THAT was scrapped as well).
And about ignoring TSL, I think the story has so much potential (the entire brianna storyline was deemed non canon because the exile was female for example) they would be foolish not to take full advantage of that.

P.S: Someone said something about the exile's name being unknown and how that was somehow related to the characters importance, well, revan isn't a real name either, it's short for a title he picked up when trying to enlist jedi to make war with the mandalorians: the Revanchist.

There was no journey with Kreia...she was a Sith to begin with. She was attempting to manipulate the Exile to bring about the destruction of the Force. Kreia manipulated Atris as well, though Atris was well on her way to the dark side anyway, Kreia just gave her a couple of subtle pushes.

As for names.."During the early Outer Rim skirmishes between the Republic and Mandalorians, Revan—by this time a well known, powerful and charismatic Jedi Knight—moved throughout the Jedi Order, arguing his case for Jedi intervention. As the Revanchist movement behind him grew, the Republic media cast Revan in the role of crusading savior, wrongfully ignored by the aloof High Council. Though first referred to as "the Revanchist Leader" in reports, it was not long before the young Jedi Knight was given a new, "snappier" moniker: the Revanchist." -from Wookieepedia

The Exile having no name was by game design and has little to do with anything else imho.

At any rate: as I mentioned before Bioware hasn't mentioned the events of TSL yet...but that doesn't mean there won't be something...even if it isn't revealed in the prelaunch updates etc...

TheRogueForums
07-14-2009, 07:43 AM
The majority of the galaxy definitely didn't know exactly what was happening in KotOR II, that is right, especially not that Sith were again opposing Jedi, when it was the general consensus that both parties had disappeared.

On the other hand, the Exile was public knowledge to a whole bunch of parties: the Jedi, the Sith, the Republic army, Bounty Hunters. Her involvement in the Onderon Civil War, Telos Attack, the destruction of Peragus, the Bounty Hunter war on Nar Shaddaa and the Khoonda battle on Dantooine didn't go by unnoticed. The "Last of the Jedi" must've sent a buzz throughout the whole sector, and far beyond. I can understand that after 300 years, and especially when the galaxy is in another war with the Sith, the common folk would remember Revan rather than the Exile. But to a few parties, the Republic army and the Jedi, her deeds must've have been closely followed and recorded afterwards. The Republic army, with Carth in a pivotal role, must've been aware of a remnant Sith army and the role the Exile could play in its destruction. The Jedi must've remembered her for playing a vital role in rebuilding the Jedi Order, especially when Visas and Mical are important members of that Jedi Order.

So, in short, I can agree with BioWare's decision for the galaxy not to be aware of what happened after the Jedi Civil War, or for the people just thinking it the aftermath of the Jedi Civil War, especially after 300 years. What bothers me, though, is that the timeline won't mention the Sith Civil War. The holorecords being told by a Jedi Master and Keeper of the Archives, you'd expect some knowledge of that period from that person. At least, that's the impression I get when I look at the timelines, perhaps it'll be mentioned in the 'Jedi Civil War' record.

I also don't think BioWare is ignoring KotOR II. As mentioned, the True Sith threat is spawned directly from that game, and BioWare already confirmed that for the KotOR fans, the fates of Revan and the Exile will be revealed. TOR is mainly focusing on its own time, and not on either KotOR or KotOR II. But there'll be plenty of lore for fans of both games, I think.
My sentiments exactly- Bioware isn't omitting anything. Rather, they are focusing on the TOR story, which takes places several centuries after the events of KOTOR II.

In addition to the stated quote that the fates of both Revan and the Exile will be revealed, in the very first press release, the Devs states that "some droids can last a long time." If that isn't a reference towards KOTOR II, I don't know what else could be.

aner21
07-14-2009, 08:09 AM
There was no journey with Kreia...she was a Sith to begin with. She was attempting to manipulate the Exile to bring about the destruction of the Force. Kreia manipulated Atris as well, though Atris was well on her way to the dark side anyway, Kreia just gave her a couple of subtle pushes.

As for names.."During the early Outer Rim skirmishes between the Republic and Mandalorians, Revan—by this time a well known, powerful and charismatic Jedi Knight—moved throughout the Jedi Order, arguing his case for Jedi intervention. As the Revanchist movement behind him grew, the Republic media cast Revan in the role of crusading savior, wrongfully ignored by the aloof High Council. Though first referred to as "the Revanchist Leader" in reports, it was not long before the young Jedi Knight was given a new, "snappier" moniker: the Revanchist." -from Wookieepedia

The Exile having no name was by game design and has little to do with anything else imho.

Revans title origin was explained in the comics, so you might very well find out her real name in the same source, all I'm saying is that both cases are titles created with the purpose of allowing each gamer to name their rpg character.

I meant you could find what made her turn towards the sith before the game, flesh her out (if your persuasion and influence was high enough).

You could do the same for G0T0, find out what it is and where it came from (it's mentioned ingame and is envolved in one of your quests DS an LS likewise even before you arrive in Nar Shadaa).
I think Atton and Bao-Dur were underdeveloped, although they did have potential and Mical was annoying and could've been better than that two dimentional "i wuv you" idiot.
Unlike KotoR I where you had to wait until the game unlocked the dialog in TSL you could pursue it and in every game and dialog choice add something about the party characters.

But I think this is getting off topic...

Miltiades
07-14-2009, 12:10 PM
the entire brianna storyline was deemed non canon because the exile was female for example Other sources have since confirmed Brianna traveling with the Exile as canon (the KotOR Campaign Guide, for one).

aner21
07-14-2009, 05:32 PM
Even if the exile's female??
I'm glad they made it canon, but it's weird since your unable to have both Mical and Brianna as party members (having that idiot removed from canon would be to much to ask for... he had so much potential ...but alas)

EDIT: I knew female LS exile was canon, but I still think it´s weird when they decide on an "official" version and then make parts of the "unofficial" official, but I'm still glad Brianna's story is canon (as canon as anything in EU, at least)

Miltiades
07-14-2009, 06:19 PM
Even if the exile's female?? Female Exile is canon, Brianna traveling with the Exile is canon, so yes.

Zerimar Nyliram
07-15-2009, 12:53 PM
Yeah, the official word, in my understanding, is that both Brianna and Mical accompanied the Exile on her journey. Obviously that's impossible from a gameplay perspective, but that's the word.

I'm glad because I love Brianna. Hate Mical, though.

TheRogueForums
07-15-2009, 01:36 PM
The Disciple was awesome, and don't you ever forget it! lol

I would, however, like ot see the reformation of the Jedi Order play out. Take us from the end of KOTOR 2, to the beginning of TOR.

Jeff
07-15-2009, 02:29 PM
I would, however, like ot see the reformation of the Jedi Order play out. Take us from the end of KOTOR 2, to the beginning of TOR.I'd love to see what happens in that period as well. Wonder if that missing time will ever be filled in.

Titanius Anglesmith
07-15-2009, 02:40 PM
I don't really care if they don't go into depth with the TSL/end of TSL-TOR timeline. I just hope it's not completely ignored as if it never happened.

Gurges-Ahter
07-15-2009, 02:53 PM
I have a hard time believing TSL-related content will be left out completely - I think it will be touched on at some point but probably won't be a major point in the story-line. To date I think it's been omitted because it's not yet relevant.

JediAthos
07-15-2009, 04:44 PM
I'd love to see what happens in that period as well. Wonder if that missing time will ever be filled in.


I would love to see them fill us in on at least the major events of the period. I think a lot of folks would given the amount of fan fics set after the end of TSL.

Trench
07-15-2009, 04:46 PM
I would want to hear the Sith Emperor (Ludo Kressh?) say something about the two troublesome Jedi who delayed the invasion of his Empire.

Darth Avlectus
07-19-2009, 05:05 PM
^^^Heh, yeah, me too. :)

Female Exile is canon, Brianna traveling with the Exile is canon, so yes.

Yeah, the official word, in my understanding, is that both Brianna and Mical accompanied the Exile on her journey. Obviously that's impossible from a gameplay perspective, but that's the word.

I'm glad because I love Brianna. Hate Mical, though.

Well, in earlier releases of the game (my homie in the army bought it for XOBX when it first came out), whether or not Brianna joined you was actually alignment based as opposed to gender based. In this case you always ended up with michal, but it was now a choice between Brianna or Visas Marr: if you were darkside by the time you reached the Telos academy, she would not join you and Visas would attempt to assassinate you. Otherwise, she came along with you.

However, this alone somewhat raises the conflict against the also canonized deal: Visas reforming the Jedi Order. Still possible if she did not join The Exile, I suppose. Sensing her master's demise, turned to the light. Same sorta deal with the disciple for a male Exile: could have joined with the Jedi order at a later date.

I'd love to see what happens in that period as well. Wonder if that missing time will ever be filled in.

<snip> I just hope it's not completely ignored as if it never happened.

Seconded those notions.

I have a hard time believing TSL-related content will be left out completely - I think it will be touched on at some point but probably won't be a major point in the story-line. To date I think it's been omitted because it's not yet relevant.

I would imagine there will be mention of its events. Where else would the triumvirate have their information on "what is to come"?

Master Shake
07-21-2009, 12:04 AM
Bioware is just jealous they didn't come up with the story first.

Prime
07-21-2009, 10:09 AM
Probably things have been left out right now so that they can incorporate them into the storyline or future additions to the game.

adamqd
07-22-2009, 09:14 AM
^^ Agreed, I think people forget that this aint gonna be 50 hour game lol, I'm sure the Devs are hoping for it to continue for years... we cant run the same starter content for 5 years haha

WraithPrince
07-22-2009, 09:16 PM
Malachor expansion! xD