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Tobias Reiper
07-15-2009, 03:33 AM
Let me start off by saying I have experience with Evil, which is explained later on, but anyway, the thing that just mind boggles me, is how some people are just evil, from school bullies to mass murderers, I still can't figure out why.
And it's not just the world, it's in these games too, and it's even worse then.
Now I love Fallout 3, and I occasionally look up videos that people have made in it, but then I saw somebody do the Evil ending,
Deciding to put the FEV in the water and send Lyons to her doom whilst she was thinking she was saving the Wastes, but all together destroying everyone.
I just got mad at that point because, WHY!?
Why would you do that!?!
And I can understand the occasional frenzy killings then loading an autosave after a game annoys you, which I in fact have done quite a few times, but it's the torturing and all that that just bugs me to no end, the NPC's being constantly entitled 'Misunderstood' when they're just total douches for no better reason than someone has to be.
Just the other day I walked by a School playground fence and heard a kid shoving a New Student around just so, and I quote, "To show this little geek that I rule, and he's nothin' but trash."
I hopped over the fence and shoved that punk in the ground then spit in his eye when he flipped over, and I am NOT ashamed of it.
Oh yes, there's also ANOTHER Evil, well, Evil isn't really the word for it, but instead just rude.
Now I've been in trouble with the Law, when I was a kid I had anger issues and well, I pushed my teacher, but that's not the point, I was put in front of the police officer and he actually, just for a push, started going off about how he'd love to put me in jail for years if he could, and I was 1 inch away from poking his eye out and kicking him in the groin because that's just uncalled for, sure, he may have been teaching me a lesson, but C'MON, do you REALLY have to go to that level?
Oh yes, and another thing, Murder. I know Murder, when it happens to your family or friends, it's just shocking that someone took them away from you, took away a good soul just for fun, or whatever reason.
When I was a kid I was, well, Kidnapped, and by who you wonder?
My own Father.
Took months to get me back and him in Jail, but my mother pulled it off, then heres the next bit of evil in my Childhood:
My Mom Re-married to a good guy, my stepdad, who was better than my scum dad than anyone else, and then a few years later growing up I learned that my Grandpa was killed by a Robber, and I know he wasn't my real Grandfather, because he was my Step Dad's dad, but I still liked him alot, and it was just shocking when I found out about it, and the worst bit was all I could remember of him was his cheery face when he saw the glee on mine after he gave me a set of toy cars that were made of wood for the rest of my life, in fact, to this very day.
What's your take on the Evil, and please, no discussions about how Fallout sucks or that I'm a douche for doing what I did, and please for the love of god, DON'T bug me about the officer thing, I get enough of that whenever I come into contact with my parents.
(P.S., I gave the picked on kid a hug and a bit of money as a reward for dealing with that.)

SpaceAlex
07-15-2009, 03:46 AM
Says a guy who uses a picture of Mr.47 for his avatar. :xp:

Joking...

Anyway, it's not called evil, it's called stupidity. People like that have to exist so that the rest of us can feel better about ourselves, heh. Seriously, don't let it go over your head. "Evil" people can be annoying, but they exist and there's nothing you can do about it. Well, you can try to tech them a lesson if it makes you feel better...

EDIT: Looks like you added a little more drama to your post. Oh well, my point still stands (for the first half anyway).

Rabish Bini
07-15-2009, 03:57 AM
Doing evil in games can be used to "let out steam".
Sometimes when i'm pissed off, I'll dust off my Hitman: Blood Money game and torture all people in a mission, one by one, until everyone is dead and all that's left is a bloody mess.
Plus, it can give you that good feeling inside knowing you're superior.

As for evil in the real world, I believe it's more or less a sort of medical condition or maybe even from outside interference, such as a traumatic experience in life, while other people are just big jerks.
Bullies on the other hand, usually are just misunderstood. Most bullies usually have a crappy life, have family issues or have had a terrible upbringing, such as beaten by their parents, and don't know any better than to do the same to others, and can even be a way of getting attention.
People like that police officer though are usually just jerks with large egos.

Good on you for sticking up for the kid by the way.

Trench
07-15-2009, 04:00 AM
Wow, you gave a bully a beat down? I'm impressed (not that I encourage such things).
I often find myself disgusted and angered by the stupidity and cruelty of the human race.
Not only are many people violent and evil, but most other people are totally apathetic towards it.
My favorite quote:
Lets hope that the human race never escapes earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere
I hope I quoted that right.

Tobias Reiper
07-15-2009, 04:00 AM
Says a guy who uses a picture of Mr.47 for his avatar. :xp:

Joking...

Anyway, it's not called evil, it's called stupidity. People like that have to exist so that the rest of us can feel better about ourselves, heh. Seriously, don't let it go over your head. "Evil" people can be annoying, but they exist and there's nothing you can do about it.

For 1, Agent 47 is NOT evil, if you think about it, and from what I can remember from the games, everyone he took down was a criminal in one way or another, pretty much making him a good guy.
For 2, While that may be true, what I'm asking is why they themselves are Evil, because making us feel better than them is obviously not their goal.

Rabish Bini
07-15-2009, 04:05 AM
For 2, While that may be true, what I'm asking is why they themselves are Evil, because making us feel better than them is obviously not their goal.
I beleive I answered that farely well.

Tobias Reiper
07-15-2009, 04:20 AM
I beleive I answered that farely well.

Well yes, but if you go back to my first post and read the edit's I made, I experienced two traumatic experiences that might make you think I'd have been a bully myself, taking up the family issues slot, but the wierd thing is, I didn't.
I was the nice guy in school, the funny one who helped you out when you needed it, and I mean, sure, I had my anger problem, but otherwise I didn't really have anything wrong with me, or so people thought, truth was, I was screwed up in the head, questioning philosophy and whatnot by age 10, and I was generally alone, the kind of alone where you have the friends and things, but there is a whole different field in your brain that nobody in society but yourself is in.
Not a single person could understand me, not in the Emo Teenager Moron way of wearing black, listening to screamo, and such, no, I hid all of it behind a mask of wholesomness so at least in some ways I was not alone, and could gain trust and then when the friends were gained teach them my ideals and how I see things, to which they saw as correct, but the point is that despite being flawed, I was not the Bully kind of flaw, and yet not one I've ever met has managed to be like me, ever.

SpaceAlex
07-15-2009, 04:28 AM
For 1, Agent 47 is NOT evil, if you think about it, and from what I can remember from the games, everyone he took down was a criminal in one way or another, pretty much making him a good guy.

Hmm, can't exactly agree with that. While your assumption holds true for Silent Assassin and maybe even Contracts, he seemed to have changed in Blood Money where he shot three completely innocent people (the delivery boy, the priest, and the reporter) just so he could remain inconspicuous. He didn't seem to have a problem killing just about anyone if he got paid for it.

Anyway, I hope this is just a period he was going through and that the writers will try to do more with the character in the next Hitman. He was kind of bland in Blood Money.

But this thread isn't about Hitman, so...

For 2, While that may be true, what I'm asking is why they themselves are Evil, because making us feel better than them is obviously not their goal.

No, their goal is to look superior to everyone else, but no-one with a lick of sense shares their philosophy. So, the irony is that in trying to look superior, they actually make us feel better and superior. So in the end, it really works both ways.


Anyway, I wasn't being totally serious when I said that. I of course don't truly believe that's the only reason they exist.

As for evil in the real world, I believe it's more or less a sort of medical condition or maybe even from outside interference, such as a traumatic experience in life, while other people are just big jerks.
Bullies on the other hand, usually are just misunderstood. Most bullies usually have a crappy life, have family issues or have had a terrible upbringing, such as beaten by their parents, and don't know any better than to do the same to others, and can even be a way of getting attention.

And then there are some with perfect families (though that depends of one's definition of perfect) who grow up into serial killers. Granted, it is rare, but does happen. Some people are just born that way.

Tobias Reiper
07-15-2009, 04:39 AM
Hmm, can't exactly agree with that. While your assumption holds true for Silent Assassin and maybe even Contracts, he seemed to have changed in Blood Money where he shot three completely innocent people (the delivery boy, the priest, and the reporter) just so he could remain inconspicuous. He didn't seem to have a problem killing just about anyone if he got paid for it.

Anyway, I hope this is just a period he was going through and that the writers will try to do more with the character in the next Hitman. He was kind of bland in Blood Money.

But this thread isn't about Hitman, so...


And in remaining inconspicuous he was allowed to kill more of the bad people.
Necessary deaths happen for greater goals in games.

Master Shake
07-15-2009, 05:05 AM
It's called variety, and it just so happens to be the spice of life.

Insignia_Enithma
07-15-2009, 05:06 AM
Just the other day I walked by a School playground fence and heard a kid shoving a New Student around just so, and I quote, "To show this little geek that I rule, and he's nothin' but trash."
I hopped over the fence and shoved that punk in the ground then spit in his eye when he flipped over, and I am NOT ashamed of it.

Tempted as I am to comment on the rest fo your post I know I'll jsut start ranting about my own life.

But this, I had to comment on.

Can I buy you a beer?

For the past five years I endured a great deal of bullying, Ive been stuck in gang fights with me being the only target, i've been kicked in, sent to hospital ect.

Your reaction, and what my exact reaction now (over these past five years especially in the last I have gained alot of musle and pain resistance) is what i'd like to see more.

bravo! :thmbup1:

Astor
07-15-2009, 06:25 AM
We've all, at some point in our lives, had problems with bullies. And i'm sure that we've all considered hitting out at them.

But i've always felt that violence only brings you down to their level. Have I ever wanted to hit someone who has caused me nothing but trouble? Of course. Did I? No, because as satisfying as it would have been to say I hit back, it was much more satisfying to solve the situation without violence.

Call it wimpish if you will, but i'm not a violent person. And i'm not going to get violent because some weak person decides that they're going to choose someone weaker than them as a target to satisfy their own insecurities.

As for 'Evil' I don't think that most things we encounter on a day-to-day basis are 'evil' - unless you work with mass murderers and other such people on a daily basis.

Insignia_Enithma
07-15-2009, 06:52 AM
We've all, at some point in our lives, had problems with bullies. And i'm sure that we've all considered hitting out at them.

But i've always felt that violence only brings you down to their level. Have I ever wanted to hit someone who has caused me nothing but trouble? Of course. Did I? No, because as satisfying as it would have been to say I hit back, it was much more satisfying to solve the situation without violence.

Call it wimpish if you will, but i'm not a violent person. And i'm not going to get violent because some weak person decides that they're going to choose someone weaker than them as a target to satisfy their own insecurities.

As for 'Evil' I don't think that most things we encounter on a day-to-day basis are 'evil' - unless you work with mass murderers and other such people on a daily basis.

There are lot of cases that I would agree with you, where there are much better non violent aproaches to a situation. However wafter being mugeed sevral times at school, been attacked by over twenty people and some of which where recorded beating I have to say, after reporting this to the police (who shrug there shoulders and say its nothing to do with them), and then the school who punish me for self defence and dont discipline the bullies, bullying is not one of these times that dioplomacy will work.

So yeh I fight back, I wouldn't say that lowers em down to there level, its not like im verbally and physically torturing them shut a few punches here and there to get them to back off, and if I see someone else ahving a hard time from bullies I go help them.

And yes maybe the [peopel arnt "Evil" but there actions sure are.

And school kids act evil alot.

Astor
07-15-2009, 07:02 AM
I'm sorry that both you and Tobias have had a rough time - i'm not saying that everyone can solve things peacefully - everyone is wired differently, after all.

And I have hit people (actually, a pair of football boots did the hitting - I merely did the swinging) - but I didn't feel good about breaking the guys nose afterwards. He'd been a jerk, but he didn't deserve a broken nose for simple name-calling and pushing me around.

That's why I try to avoid violence - because often, if someone has been pushed around a lot, and they snap, what they mete out is far worse than what they've recieved. In my experience, violence just causes more trouble.

And school kids act evil alot.

School kids just act mean - not evil. It may seem evil at the time, but it's not 'evil'.

mur'phon
07-15-2009, 07:09 AM
Not much of a believer in "evil" simply because it apears to me that we are all simply doing what we believe benefits us the most. And by "benefits us" I'm talking about everything from a good feeling to material gain. So in the end, the guy who robs someone (for material gain) is no more "evil" than the guy who helps the victim fight back (for the good feeling of helping someone and/or having the victim owe him a favor).

SpaceAlex
07-15-2009, 07:51 AM
Not much of a believer in "evil" simply because it apears to me that we are all simply doing what we believe benefits us the most. And by "benefits us" I'm talking about everything from a good feeling to material gain. So in the end, the guy who robs someone (for material gain) is no more "evil" than the guy who helps the victim fight back (for the good feeling of helping someone and/or having the victim owe him a favor).

You make a good point. I can't say I disagree.

Q
07-15-2009, 08:10 AM
Not much of a believer in "evil" simply because it apears to me that we are all simply doing what we believe benefits us the most. And by "benefits us" I'm talking about everything from a good feeling to material gain. So in the end, the guy who robs someone (for material gain) is no more "evil" than the guy who helps the victim fight back (for the good feeling of helping someone and/or having the victim owe him a favor).
I think that the differentiating factor here would be either the consideration of how one's action effect another or the absence of said consideration.

mur'phon
07-15-2009, 08:24 AM
Not sure how it's much of a differing factor regarding motivation. I care about how my actions afect others, and might well do things that harms me in some way, like paying for the bus for a friend without money, but I'd be lying to myself if I said that I did it because I'm good as oposed to because the fact that it makes me feel better/makes others think more highly of me/makes the other person "owe me one" etc. If I had valued the money spent on the bus more than the mentioned benefits of paying for my friend, I obviously wouldn't have done so. So wether I pay for my friend or not doesen't make my motivation anything else than what benefits me the most.

El Sitherino
07-15-2009, 10:24 AM
The world is a cruel and unfair place, many people are selfish and act worse than a three-year-old that just learned the concept of "Mine!". I actually nearly went to jail recently due to some insane levels of selfishness all in efforts to do what I thought was needed in order to help someone, luckily law enforcement aren't as completely incompetent as I had believed and I am now back to continue fighting the good fight.

Moral of the story, never ever help anyone ever, unless you're willing to suffer.

True_Avery
07-15-2009, 04:48 PM
And it's not just the world, it's in these games too, and it's even worse then.
Now I love Fallout 3, and I occasionally look up videos that people have made in it, but then I saw somebody do the Evil ending,

I just got mad at that point because, WHY!?
Why would you do that!?!
And I can understand the occasional frenzy killings then loading an autosave after a game annoys you, which I in fact have done quite a few times, but it's the torturing and all that that just bugs me to no end, the NPC's being constantly entitled 'Misunderstood' when they're just total douches for no better reason than someone has to be.
Playing a good or evil storyline in a video game is not "evil". It is a game, and you decide the narrative. Reading a book with a bad ending does not make you evil, and neither does running down a digital person in GTA. The "evil" ending and so on has its own narrative, and so does the "good".

It is also a work of fiction, so every character is "fake" to a certain degree so it is really useless to try to treat them like "normal" people.

The ending of Fallout 3 made no sense anyway regardless of the outcome, so I'll at least agree with you that it was stupid.

Just the other day I walked by a School playground fence and heard a kid shoving a New Student around just so, and I quote, "To show this little geek that I rule, and he's nothin' but trash."
I hopped over the fence and shoved that punk in the ground then spit in his eye when he flipped over, and I am NOT ashamed of it.
Yeah, good job on beating up that bully by going down to his level and claiming yourself the morally superior being.

Not saying what you did was better or worse, but don't take the "he was hitting some so that means I get to hit him!" route and then claim you are less evil than him.

I've attacked bullies in my time, but I wont sit here and explain why doing so makes me better than them.

Oh yes, and another thing, Murder. I know Murder, when it happens to your family or friends, it's just shocking that someone took them away from you, took away a good soul just for fun, or whatever reason.
When I was a kid I was, well, Kidnapped, and by who you wonder?
My own Father.
Took months to get me back and him in Jail, but my mother pulled it off, then heres the next bit of evil in my Childhood:
My Mom Re-married to a good guy, my stepdad, who was better than my scum dad than anyone else, and then a few years later growing up I learned that my Grandpa was killed by a Robber, and I know he wasn't my real Grandfather, because he was my Step Dad's dad, but I still liked him alot, and it was just shocking when I found out about it, and the worst bit was all I could remember of him was his cheery face when he saw the glee on mine after he gave me a set of toy cars that were made of wood for the rest of my life, in fact, to this very day.
I'm sorry for your loss, but then I am slightly confused about this:

For 1, Agent 47 is NOT evil, if you think about it, and from what I can remember from the games, everyone he took down was a criminal in one way or another, pretty much making him a good guy.
So, you've experience crime and murder but, yet, you are backing up a character who murders for a job? Again, not a lot of weight on your "evil" argument.

For 2, While that may be true, what I'm asking is why they themselves are Evil, because making us feel better than them is obviously not their goal.
You can answer this with your own quote:

And in remaining inconspicuous he was allowed to kill more of the bad people.
Necessary deaths happen for greater goals in games.
You've found a justification for murder, so I again question your use of the word "evil". 3 Innocent people for one "evil" person, an equal does not make. Maybe one for one, but, even if a video game, you've made a justification for a man to kill as many innocent people as he pleases because "he hunts 'evil' people".

Go back up to my point about bullies and sinking to their level.

And school kids act evil alot.
School kids are kids. Kids are humans who are not used to social contract, so they do what feels necessary or "right" to them. They are the perfect examples of what every one of us really is, and I can guarantee you that if we went into your past as a kid that we'd find some "evil" actions.

I do not know you at all, so I cannot make assumptions, but just consider this question: You have been attacked a lot and bullies a lot. Tomorrow you are taller, stronger, and a better fighter. You see the bullies picking on someone.

What do you do?

I don't really care or need to know your answer, but just contemplate it before using a dangerous word like "evil".

There are lot of cases that I would agree with you, where there are much better non violent aproaches to a situation. However wafter being mugeed sevral times at school, been attacked by over twenty people and some of which where recorded beating I have to say, after reporting this to the police (who shrug there shoulders and say its nothing to do with them), and then the school who punish me for self defence and dont discipline the bullies, bullying is not one of these times that dioplomacy will work.
Hate to say this, but there is always the courts and so on. You -can- legally sue the school for neglect, and even call out police officers and even entire stations for disregarding public safety.

My cousin was in the same spot as you, but in reality there is still always a place to go to try and fix these problems outside of simply resorting to violence. The cops do in fact have a legal obligation to assess your situation, so any cop that has told you that it isn't their problem... well, you could bring that to court quite easily.

What's your take on the Evil, and please, no discussions about how Fallout sucks or that I'm a douche for doing what I did, and please for the love of god, DON'T bug me about the officer thing, I get enough of that whenever I come into contact with my parents.
Then why bring it up?

You asked for my opinion on evil, so I explained it through your examples.

But, if you want a better summary:

Not much of a believer in "evil" simply because it apears to me that we are all simply doing what we believe benefits us the most. And by "benefits us" I'm talking about everything from a good feeling to material gain. So in the end, the guy who robs someone (for material gain) is no more "evil" than the guy who helps the victim fight back (for the good feeling of helping someone and/or having the victim owe him a favor).

Not sure how it's much of a differing factor regarding motivation. I care about how my actions affect others, and might well do things that harms me in some way, like paying for the bus for a friend without money, but I'd be lying to myself if I said that I did it because I'm good as opposed to because the fact that it makes me feel better/makes others think more highly of me/makes the other person "owe me one" etc. If I had valued the money spent on the bus more than the mentioned benefits of paying for my friend, I obviously wouldn't have done so. So whether I pay for my friend or not doesen't make my motivation anything else than what benefits me the most.
That pretty much summarizes my thoughts on the subject.

People suck, and every non-mentally handicapped person is capable of the "evil" and "good" of the next.

Insignia_Enithma
07-15-2009, 05:02 PM
School kids are kids. Kids are humans who are not used to social contract, so they do what feels necessary or "right" to them. They are the perfect examples of what every one of us really is, and I can guarantee you that if we went into your past as a kid that we'd find some "evil" actions.

Sorry I left school (Im in the UK) this year so I'm 16. so yeh we can still probably consider me a kid. And I still think kids do some preatty evil acts and I don't deny myself doing some preatty stupid stuff like stealing shoplifting, something alot of kids go through.

I consider an act bad/evil/whatever when even though they know this is wrong, even though they have faced consequences they CONTINUE to do it.


I do not know you at all, so I cannot make assumptions, but just consider this question: You have been attacked a lot and bullies a lot. Tomorrow you are taller, stronger, and a better fighter. You see the bullies picking on someone.

What do you do?

I don't really care or need to know your answer, but just contemplate it before using a dangerous word like "evil".

Yeh you don't know me at all. The bullying caused em alot of mental illness soemthing I have only recovered from recently and do you know what, if I was bigger stronger tougher tommorrow, and saw a kdi being bullied, I'd walk up to the bully ask him to leave the kid alone, and then if he turned his agression on me. I would defend myself. If he hwoever continued his agressions on the kid, I'd get in the way. I've been in there position in fact I've had bullying worst then them majority, and I refuse to stand and let someone else suffer it.

And sorry but I really do not think thsi reduces me to there level.

Not at all.

I'm the not job adrenaline junky in my group standing in the way of someones aggression to people I know or don't know, is who I am.


Hate to say this, but there is always the courts and so on. You -can- legally sue the school for neglect, and even call out police officers and even entire stations for disregarding public safety.

My cousin was in the same spot as you, but in reality there is still always a place to go to try and fix these problems outside of simply resorting to violence. The cops do in fact have a legal obligation to assess your situation, so any cop that has told you that it isn't their problem... well, you could bring that to court quite easily.

We havn't the money for court fees ect. With my mum disabled and not working. Don't you thinkk I already knew this, I even looked into restraining orders but the police in the area REFUSE POINT BLANK to get involved with school bullying.



My replies are in bold.

Q
07-15-2009, 05:33 PM
Not sure how it's much of a differing factor regarding motivation. I care about how my actions afect others, and might well do things that harms me in some way, like paying for the bus for a friend without money, but I'd be lying to myself if I said that I did it because I'm good as oposed to because the fact that it makes me feel better/makes others think more highly of me/makes the other person "owe me one" etc. If I had valued the money spent on the bus more than the mentioned benefits of paying for my friend, I obviously wouldn't have done so. So wether I pay for my friend or not doesen't make my motivation anything else than what benefits me the most.
What about the ones that think that bashing an innocent person's skull in benefits them the most? Or those who simply erode someone's else's self-esteem to benefit their own? Or those who are so ruthlessly hedonistic that they don't care who they hurt as long as they get what they want?

Are you trying to say that there is no difference between their personalities and that of someone who lives according to a policy of not harming others? Because, frankly, I see a big difference, there.
I don't really care or need to know your answer, but just contemplate it before using a dangerous word like "evil".

Dangerous to whom? Evil-doers who are trying to weasel out of being labeled?

True_Avery
07-15-2009, 05:49 PM
Sorry I left school (Im in the UK) this year so I'm 16. so yeh we can still probably consider me a kid. And I still think kids do some pretty evil acts and I don't deny myself doing some pretty stupid stuff like stealing shoplifting, something alot of kids go through.

I consider an act bad/evil/whatever when even though they know this is wrong, even though they have faced consequences they CONTINUE to do it.
Well, by doing something you know is wrong over and over again you are effectively doing an act of insanity, but I see your point non-the-less.

Bullies usually pick on people to feel better, stronger, etc. To them it is right, so it isn't really that they are doing something they know is wrong, but more of doing something that feels right to them. Not so much "evil", but venting their selfishness.

Until they find a new outlet of some sort, or personally come to terms with the idea that what they are doing is "wrong", consequences mean little as it is, to them, only an impediment to their own self fulfillment. The consequences are seen as an attempt to hurt them, not not as an attempt to teach them something.

"Bad" I'll agree with. "Evil" is a strong word that I'd replace with "selfish ignorance", which are two words that summarize children better than any others I can think up.

Yeah, that all basically fits what most people would call "evil", but I still believe that word implies that they know what they are doing is wrong, which, in my opinion, is a personally type that only exists within fiction.

Does that make what they are doing right or wrong? Does that give my permission to bully people? No, it doesn't. In no way am I giving permission to do such, but simply explaining why I do not like the word "evil" being used. If you would like to call them "bad", or any other variety of cuss words then feel free to do so and I probably will agree.

Yeh you don't know me at all. The bullying caused em alot of mental illness something I have only recovered from recently and do you know what, if I was bigger stronger tougher tomorrow, and saw a kdi being bullied, I'd walk up to the bully ask him to leave the kid alone, and then if he turned his aggression on me. I would defend myself. If he however continued his aggressions on the kid, I'd get in the way. I've been in there position in fact I've had bullying worst then them majority, and I refuse to stand and let someone else suffer it.

And sorry but I really do not think this reduces me to there level.

Not at all.

I'm the not job adrenaline junky in my group standing in the way of someones aggression to people I know or don't know, is who I am.
Fair enough.

But, in my experience, standing up to bullies give a level of self fulfillment and respect, but it has also gotten me in trouble. I'll admit right here that fighting back and hitting people who've messed with me has done wonders, and gotten real jerks off my back for the rest of my life.

Fighting back has worked for me socially, however it got my into a lot of trouble in elementary school and almost got me expelled from my Middle and High School. As an adult if I stepped in and defended someone and hurt the other person, then I could go to jail or get slapped with a fine, arrested, and so on.

I say "going down to their level" not out of a moral reason. Defend the kid for all I care. Hell, I'd help you out. But, as far as the Principle, and eventually the cops are concerned you still got into a fight, and you are still under arrest until proving that you had the high ground in that situation.

In my opinion, it works in School and, ironically, works in Jail/Prison but outside of that it comes with harder consequences. Especially if you are an adult and you step into a fight between kids and someone gets hurt.

If it is self defense, then go ahead. It just isn't a recommended way to go through life. Hell, if you ask a lawyer the first thing they'll tell you is "Don't fight back physically. Fight back with a lawyer."

We havn't the money for court fees ect. With my mum disabled and not working. Don't you thinkk I already knew this, I even looked into restraining orders but the police in the area REFUSE POINT BLANK to get involved with school bullying.
I understand. My point was merely that diplomacy can still be reached, but as in your situation the level of that diplomacy is out of your hands.

However, organized parents, and organized court case, and so on could have a lot of effects on the school and would probably do better than to bully the bullies. You may have gotten out, and I can understand your money problem, but the issue of your law enforcement adamantly refusing to do anything is a serious problem in your area.

Hell, keep going up the school ladder until you find someone that will listen. You can't have been the only kid being picked on, so get with them and their parents and go up with them.

If it was a problem for you, it'll be a problem for others. I know you know this, but just repeating why I think your situation is one, in particular, that really needs to be addressed by your community.

Q
07-15-2009, 06:15 PM
Well, by doing something you know is wrong over and over again you are effectively doing an act of insanity
There must be a lot of insane people on the planet, then.
Yeah, that all basically fits what most people would call "evil", but I still believe that word implies that they know what they are doing is wrong,
And you would be right about that.
which, in my opinion, is a personally type that only exists within fiction.
But here I completely disagree with you.

Q
07-15-2009, 06:36 PM
Because you don't like to hear the truth about yourself? Because you're throwing a party because I refused to hurt your puppies and kittens? Because you know that I think that you are a phenomenal person of incredible taste and beauty and I would never dream of making Jae edit my post while she's on her Florida vacation?

Master Shake
07-15-2009, 06:51 PM
Lol, they're kids, I see nothing wrong with bullies getting a taste of their own medicine.

Trench
07-15-2009, 06:52 PM
Lol, they're kids, I see nothing wrong with bullies getting a taste of their own medicine.

If that's so then let me be the doctor.:dev7:

:p

True_Avery
07-15-2009, 08:35 PM
There must be a lot of insane people on the planet, then.
Humans do not wake up every morning and say to themselves "I'm going to go do something I know is wrong".

People have to justify an action before they do it. If they bash in someone's skull, then they had a personal justification for it. If they steal a candy bar, they need a personal justification. If they give a $20 to a homeless man, they need a justification for doing so.

People need to gain something. If they didn't, the action would be "free". It would imply that you could, say, be given a "free" sandwich. The Sandwich may have been given to you free of charge (except, perhaps, the feeling that you owe them or a feeling of guilt), but the ingredients for that sandwich had to come from other places. The pig that made the ham definitely lost something in that exchange.

If you give a dollar to a guy on the bus, you are doing so because of a feeling of self fulfillment. If someone bashes that guys head in with a tire iron, then he needs a justification in order. He needs to feel that he is getting something out of it to do so. Perhaps the guy ticked him off, so he killed him in order to alleviate his emotions. Emotional satisfaction. Killed him to get ahead in his career, which the payback is obvious. Killed him because he felt insecure and needed to have control over another person's life, which is one of the main ailments of rapists and serial murderers.

If he killed him on a -whim- it would be insanity. Killed him just because the tire iron was there, and the guy was there. Not even because he thought it would be interesting. Just did it without any thought or consideration at all. Killed him without a justification, knowing the outcome would be no different. The same as someone flipping a light switch on and off and expecting the lights to glow blue instead of white even though there is no possible way for a white lightbulb to just randomly decide to be blue.

You explained it yourself in the Smoking thread. People justify their smoking habit, despite the clear evidence of it being bad for you and those around you. If, right now, knowing it is bad and knowing you quit, just decided to pick up a pack, smoke, and continue thinking "this is bad" without another thought saying "but is isn't -that- bad" then you are smoking upon an insane whim.

That is insanity. Not "evil", but insanity. And, despite what you keep saying, Insanity is not common. It is something that can be documented, followed, and diagnosed. Unlike "Evil", which is a religious label originally intended for sacrilegious actions, people, and so on.

And you would be right about that.
Since we have no objective meaning of what is "right" and "wrong" in this world morally, we each come up with our own opinions and, despite how right we may think we are, that doesn't change the fact there are other opinions. We don't do what we think is wrong, because we always do and believe what we think is right. It is why we call right right, and wrong wrong. Would you do something you know is wrong just because?

Lets take your opinions on gun control. You think guns should be open to the people, and that the second amendment is our right as Americans. You believe gun ownership is right. Now, this election, under those same beliefs, you go into your booth and vote to ban all guns with no change in opinion.

It doesn't make sense. You wouldn't vote to ban guns, because you think they are right. To you, doing so would be wrong. If you had utter control, with every justification in the world and the unlimited power to control whether or not guns would be banned forever and you voted to ban them... it may as well be an act of insanity, as you are clearly doing something you have justified as being wrong and know the consequences of.

Only villains in fictional movies and books claim to be evil, and do things knowing they are evil. People who do this in reality are mentally ill to a point that I don't think you fully understand. Yes, there are mentally ill people who just LOVE to kill things and love to see things in pain, but the point is that they -love- seeing it. It pleases them. It gives them something in return. They don't do it because it is "wrong", but because, to them, it feels right and makes them happy in the same way that voting to keep guns in the public makes you happy.

The only way for "evil" in such a definition to exist is for someone else to incorrectly label someone else, or something, evil. The word "evil" exists only as a word, not as a realistic concept. It exists as a label, or a classification. A justification for personal comfort. It is a word that promotes blissful ignorance of the person or thing, and simply conveniently wraps them into a word that can be easily hated without ever unwrapping it again.

So, I'll ask, what defines an "Evil" person as you seem to be very nonchalant about using the word. What situation exists in which someone could possibly do something they absolutely know is wrong, will not benefit them, will not help them, will not aid them emotionally, physically, or in any other -possible- way imaginable?

I am not asking for "Well, the kid robbed the store, made off with the money, and then got caught so obviously he did something evil as it did not benefit him in the end"

Why? Because the kid assumed he would be getting money out of it. The final, end result is not the issue. The objective result is not the issue. The personal justification is what I care about. An insane, or mentally sick, person is lacking a justification for their action.

Now, if an "Evil" person is someone who has a personal justification, but the justification will hurt someone...

Then how, may I ask, is anyone innocent?

Where do you think your food comes from? Where does all of the merchandise that says "made in china" come from? Who's job was lost in order for you to work there? Who is disappointed that they lost their game in order for you to feel great about winning?

"Innocent", as this and other thread seems to imply, is more or less someone who has cheated the system and gotten everything in life for "free", without pain or loss on the part of any other life form on this earth.

Hell, go back to one of the main points of this thread. Children. Kids. The most honest of all of us. Screaming "I want this". Picking on other kids because it makes them feel bigger, more mature, and more adult. Feels like they have control in a part of their life in which they have almost none. Babies come out of the womb demanding milk and will scream and holler until given. A baby does not come out and politely ask for painless, harmless milk. No, it demands for milk, which is a painful experience for the woman, or must be gained through the means of forced milking from another animal.

We all indirectly hurt each other, but the ones who do it to someone directly are doing so in a face-to-face, direct, and honest manner.

As far as I'm concerned, we all hurt people to get what we want. If you've confused Insanity with Evil, then yes the world is insane. Then yes, the world is evil.

In that case, I will agree with the only definition of "evil" I'd be comfortable with, except to me it simply translates to "selfish", which translates directly to "life".

But using the word to label certain people and things is what I have a problem with, because despite the nonchalant use of the word it does have very, very strong historical meaning and the word and concept has more blood on it than either of us can imagine. It implies they are less than human, which is a justification we've used in every single war and conflict in human history. It is a label that, when placed, puts them on a pedestal over other people.

In other words, High Horsing. The entire word, history, concept, meaning, etc is just a poor excuse to High Horse.

That is why I don't like the word. But you can stick with the idea that I dislike it because I'm evil if you'd like.

Insignia_Enithma
07-15-2009, 08:43 PM
^ True_Avery,

You are very interesting, and I enjoyed reading your post, and I actually understand your points. Especially about "Evil" and Insanity...

I really don't know what mroe to say tbh.

Totenkopf
07-15-2009, 10:55 PM
Because you don't like to hear the truth about yourself? Because you're throwing a party because I refused to hurt your puppies and kittens? Because you know that I think that you are a phenomenal person of incredible taste and beauty and I would never dream of making Jae edit my post while she's on her Florida vacation?

No rest for the wicked, Jae. :xp:


@TA--I would tend to disagree w/you insofar as that I think there are people who do things that are evil and do so knowingly. A sociopath knows what he's doing is wrong, but doesn't care. Satisfying a "evil" urge doesn't make the action any less human, though humane is something else altogether. A person can be both human and evil. You don't even need to drag religion into it. Afterall, one atheist can look at another and see an evil person.

Q
07-16-2009, 12:20 AM
^Precisely.
It is a label that, when placed, puts them on a pedestal over other people.

In other words, High Horsing. The entire word, history, concept, meaning, etc is just a poor excuse to High Horse.

That is why I don't like the word. But you can stick with the idea that I dislike it because I'm evil if you'd like.
We're all evil. That includes me. I've said that before in previous conversations, if you remember. We're born that way. It's what we do with it that defines us.

Sorry about all of the emo-ness, but this is an important subject to me, and something that I've had first-hand experience with, you might say.

El Sitherino
07-16-2009, 12:38 AM
Avery I'm afraid I must point out you are quite wrong in underestimating the depths of the mentally ill. Simply saying they do it because it feels right doesn't change some peoples draw to actions specifically because it is a misdeed, or wrong. There are many illnesses that leave people compelled to commit violent acts because it's against normal social structure. Sociopathy is a very broad category with very vague terms that can't be easily understood outside the realm of it's study. There is a truth to the overused icon of evil, some people are wrong simply for wrong sake. It's not that unreasonable to conclude either, people live completely to help others, simply because a large percentage of people are the everyday jerks blasting their car horn at an old lady, doesn't mean Jesus, Ghandi, and mother Theresa are the only examples of people devoted to good faith acts.

That said, it's rare someone has a genuine bloodlust.

True_Avery
07-16-2009, 02:44 AM
@TA--I would tend to disagree w/you insofar as that I think there are people who do things that are evil and do so knowingly. A sociopath knows what he's doing is wrong, but doesn't care.
I agree on the difference between humane and human.

But, note that I am talking about your run of the mill person and not, say someone of mental illness as I pointed out. Insanity is only one example I chose to use, but I will not rule out any other illnesses anyone wants to bring to the table. Sociopath's are indeed an exception to a lot of what I said, but, from my limited understanding, they still do "evil" things for the reason of it feels good. To be more precise, lack "empathy" for other creatures in some aspects. But, as far as I know, their bound to the same justification pattern that most people live their lives on.

If you'd like to call actions done by someone like that "evil" then that is your prerogative. They would fit the definition, but I'd be more inclined to call the person "sick" as I feel it has a better understanding of their situation. But, then again, they are sick only in the way that they do not have the same physical/mental development as others and do not fit social contract.

Satisfying a "evil" urge doesn't make the action any less human, though humane is something else altogether. A person can be both human and evil.
I cannot really comment on an "evil" urge, as I've yet to get a proper definition of what that exactly is. Satisfying a Selfish urge, I think, is perfectly natural and human. But, again, human and humane are different and I think that is where consideration between the two has to be made.

If inhumane is "evil", then we may be on a closer road here. But, again, I cannot really comment on "both human and evil" as I do not yet have a definition to differentiate between the two.

A lot of what has been pointed out for evil is, like, "harms others" and so on but I associate that with being human in the first place, so I think I agree with you but for different reasons. While the mentally ill may just do things, I think every person is capable of all kinds of colorful things that even we would deny at the moment.

You don't even need to drag religion into it. Afterall, one atheist can look at another and see an evil person.
Agreed. Atheist does not mean immoral after all. But, the word "evil" does have religious roots in superstition. The concept, however, is not religious so I'll go ahead and drop that point.

We're all evil. That includes me. I've said that before in previous conversations, if you remember. We're born that way. It's what we do with it that defines us.
So, either calling me "evil" was redundant, you want me to accept I'm "evil", or you think I've done something that defines me as "evil". I'm not denying that I am human, but merely pointing out that I hate the use of the word "evil", and even the word itself. I simply think it is an ignorant word.

As I said in the morality thread, I still think we're talking about basically the same thing, except I'm getting the vibe that my choice over the word "evil" to use "selfish" has convinced you that I'm giving free passes to anyone that does anything horrific.

Sorry about all of the emo-ness, but this is an important subject to me, and something that I've had first-hand experience with, you might say.
Anyone who has lived around another person for more than a day has had first-hand experience, and someone always has it worse. The reason this subject in particular gets heated is because everyone has had their little experiences with people, had/seen/experience pain, and so on. Even the pampered have to deal with something.

To start, I have not even begun to discuss my own views on right and wrong, good and evil. All I've done so far is explain why I think the word "evil" is rubbish, yet I seem to be getting that vibe that it is being mistaken for "oh, so she means there is no bad actions" or something else.

You level the playing field with the word "evil", I level it with Selfish. The difference is that you think people can do actions in life that put them lower or higher on the bar, while I think the bar never moves. That, given the correct circumstances, I could give to charity, adopt a kid, or bash some guys head open with a tire iron. Yes, actions do define people but so many of these actions are circumstantial with so many justifications each that to just look at the actions and label it evil seems pointless to me. It is a word we used when we would call someone a witch and burn them at the stake without jury. A label that, I think, is mindless.

This is not to say that I don't really hate a lot of people, and like a lot of people. I think some people can be living examples, and others scum. My point, though, is that the majority of these people live upon a simple system of self satisfaction regardless of what they do with their life. That, with the exceptions of the "sick", we're all basically driven by our own search for happiness, or at least a feeling of self worth. I hate my ex-uncle for how he's treating my aunt, but I can't exactly claim moral high-ground over him for how I've been known to treat people. I've even known jerks who give to charity.

I think another main difference is that, when you say evil, I think you say it with a bad taste in your mouth and that it is something we should aspire to be higher than. When I say "Selfish", I say it like I would describe any other person. To me the word is not negative, but as natural as eating and a fundamental part of the human condition, and a central part of human society, especially capitalism. Hell, capitalism is built upon the subject.

But, at Toten said, you find the difference between humane and human. A "good" way to vent your selfish desires may be to give charity, or hell devout your entire life to others. I still think it is selfish, but it is a shared fulfillment.

For the most part I think we just have different experience with the word "evil". I'm not going to speak out of personal experience (as it hardly has much significance as I pointed out above), but I've researched various experiments in which people who have their morality tested. A famous test is one in which a test subject was asked by a doctor to shock a man until death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

65% of the people went to the highest voltage of 400. Only 1 person refused to go past 300 volts. I've even seen the entirety of the original experiment on the original video.

This was all staged, but later a test would be done on live puppies. 20 of the 26 people went to the final voltage and killed the puppy, even while protesting.

Even while protesting. All it took was a man pretending to be a doctor, and 65% of people would kill a man, and roughly the same would kill a puppy if pushed, even while crying themselves.

The protesting is the most interesting part about experiments like this. They would continue only because a doctor, a man seen high on the social ladder, told them to do so and assured them. Because people, even while protesting, will always look to someone even a step higher then them for an answer.

The protesting is why I think evil is rubbish. I know, that sounds insane because, hell, wouldn't that make all of them evil?

If 65% of those people went in and they all just did it and laughed and had a great time while being told they were killing someone then I'd agree with Evil. But they didn't. Most of the protested. Meaning that somewhere in their minds they didn't want to continue hurting the man.

People aren't evil. We don't go looking for ways to hurt people; we look for ways to help ourselves. Despite popular belief, the two are not the same. If anything is evil, then pick the man in the white doctors suit. The president in power. Hell, even the concept of god. If anything turns people to just violence towards someone else it is control, real or suggestive. But, in the end, isn't our appeasement to a higher power just as selfish as anything else?

To me, it all comes back to just being selfish.

Avery I'm afraid I must point out you are quite wrong in underestimating the depths of the mentally ill. Simply saying they do it because it feels right doesn't change some peoples draw to actions specifically because it is a misdeed, or wrong. There are many illnesses that leave people compelled to commit violent acts because it's against normal social structure. Sociopathy is a very broad category with very vague terms that can't be easily understood outside the realm of it's study. There is a truth to the overused icon of evil, some people are wrong simply for wrong sake. It's not that unreasonable to conclude either, people live completely to help others, simply because a large percentage of people are the everyday jerks blasting their car horn at an old lady, doesn't mean Jesus, Ghandi, and mother Theresa are the only examples of people devoted to good faith acts.
I wont sit here and pretend to be an expert on mental illness.

My point, however, is that non-ill people who just do something to do it because it is "wrong" may do so for the high it brings to be a rebel. Their justification is the high they get from doing the misdeed. And, on the other side, Jesus, Ghandi, etc devoted their life for the same "high". The same selfish reason, but this time vented in a way that appeased social contract better than the misdeed. They may help others, but they help themselves just as much. Hell, Theresa is well known for having depression. Did that have anything to do with her selflessness?

The category of mental illnesses that don't fit into that is broad and ever growing, but many of them still share a justification system.

Rabish Bini
07-16-2009, 07:40 AM
And then there are some with perfect families (though that depends of one's definition of perfect) who grow up into serial killers. Granted, it is rare, but does happen. Some people are just born that way.
Of course, there's always an exception, but they majority of 'em usually aren't brought up in a "perfect" family.

vanir
07-16-2009, 09:38 AM
Bullying is a serious issue often very poorly handled by the authorities and this is most definitely a cause for great concern.

I was the victim of "chronic bullying" as the authorities put it, but then became a homeless youth and found entirely new terrors to worry about. Long story short the stakes went up somewhat, yes you can be battered and broken, hospitalised by bullying but meter that with waking up next to dead bodies you've been sleeping in abandoned warehouses with, and other things I don't want to talk about just now. I was eating out of bins at 16 for Chrissake, I don't even remember it as me, some sort of out of body experience it was. A learning curve.

When I was 18, street life already partly a memory, partly some life experience I went to a nightclub for the typical reasons, meet chicks, and ran into one of the guys who'd given me a pretty bad time back in school, still towered over me he did.
But it was different. He still looked like the same moron, but I felt like an old man standing in front of a child.
I'd played this out in my head dozens of times, as you do. I was going to do this and that to him, man up and all.
But I was standing there, he was standing there and we both knew, I mean the look on his face was pure fright and I was having flashbacks of knife-fights on railway stations and in alleyways, inches from death with nobody to know or ever care, I could've put this guy away for a very long time in two hits and a bit of boot and he knew it.
I didn't say anything, didn't feel anything, except that old man thing, and he just bowed and left smartly. I wasn't going to do anything though, why would I? There was no threat, and one thing I learned from all that experience is that I'd not put somebody else through it, even or in fact especially the ones who would others.
If my life then to now has ever proved anything it is that I am not like them.

Saying somebody deserves violence is spite. We've all got it coming, don't kid yourself about that. Sooner if you're spiteful, 'coz that bully you're putting in his place is more likely to carry a knife or a gun than regular Joe, and all that self righteousness doesn't do you much good when you walk funny for the rest of your life.

Now I've jumped in on street muggings, stood up for girls at parties, dobbed criminal workmates in to the boss, when someone attacked me at my unit I simply locked the door and called the Police to handle it, no fear, no problem, and when I got jumped by some drunk youths near a park, I took a short quick beating and got up and walked away relatively uninjured, for two good reasons, they had several glass bottles and it could've turned much more serious quickly, and I'm a little too serious in a street fight and would definitely get into legal trouble if I cut loose. I can take a few hits, it doesn't even affect my day, honestly. When I left I genuinely felt good about doing the right thing, my friends agreed those boys were lucky and I did good.

There's nothing to be ashamed about taking a few hits. Bullied kids ought remember that, for the day they get into something really serious, God forbid.

Bullying is a serious problem, but truth be told the damage is primarily emotional as far as serious life combat goes. Take it on trust that's true, as I've been there several times and each time I can actually walk away I think myself lucky. Very lucky.

My genuine advice is don't be so quick to visit violence on the violent. If there's a real life threat to somebody, and I do mean a real one, just get the job done in the best possible way, typically Police involvement as soon as you can manage (they're gonna be there anyway, if it's really that serious).
Otherwise work on your smarty pants comebacks and keep it talk.

Insignia_Enithma
07-16-2009, 06:03 PM
There's nothing to be ashamed about taking a few hits. Bullied kids ought remember that, for the day they get into something really serious, God forbid.

Bullying is a serious problem, but truth be told the damage is primarily emotional as far as serious life combat goes. Take it on trust that's true, as I've been there several times and each time I can actually walk away I think myself lucky. Very lucky.

My genuine advice is don't be so quick to visit violence on the violent. If there's a real life threat to somebody, and I do mean a real one, just get the job done in the best possible way, typically Police involvement as soon as you can manage (they're gonna be there anyway, if it's really that serious).
Otherwise work on your smarty pants comebacks and keep it talk.

Sounds liek you had a hard time.

And yeh there is no shame in taking a few hits, often ill jsut let someone go after they hit me cause it didnt hurt. I'm actually quite well known now for my super pain toelrance (i put my hand in a fire to save my freind mobile that a bully had thrown into bonfire, burn alot of skin off but it didnt really hurt. but there are times when my stupid sense of pride and dumb bravery gets i nthe way, ive been in gang fights hit with metal polls had a chair broken on me been threated with knives. All of these time I probably did the wrong thing, so In a way I geuss I do stand up for people and fight back for a reson. This feeling of pure adrenaline punmping through me is like cocaine to me... my own personal brand of heroine.

And a dangerous one.

And I geuss Ihave to say, I'm glad there are pople who have experiance what I have and turned out good.

urluckyday
07-16-2009, 09:23 PM
Just remember that most people are inherently good and while it seems like all we hear about is evil-doing on the news...almost none of the good things that go on in the world get reported on....the world is more good than bad no matter what anyone can say...

vanir
07-17-2009, 09:15 AM
The very best subcultures, the most exclusive clubs, the better personal opportunities are all inaccessible to brutal and violent people. The members don't want them.

A whole new world opens up to peaceful, honest and forthright adults. Employers want you to manage the store, customers want your service, personal contacts want to know you, exclusive women think you might be the one for them, accomplished people want your advice, the authorities want to defend you, people who believe...believe in you, people who want to believe ask you how, and yes sometimes you are a target. The vast majority of this targeting is good however.

The violent and vicarious really have no idea just how damned they choose to be.

Darth_Yuthura
07-17-2009, 11:19 AM
Good and evil, right and wrong, good and bad... these are all relative terms.

I would say that younger people or societies are not evil so much as that they haven't developed a sense of values that keep them from doing to others what they wouldn't want done to themselves. If a school bully matures and gets beyond that, it doesn't change what he did to victims early on, but I think that it was inspired more by the effects of being young and inexperienced. A person who learns to think that he can push people around his entire life is going to become more vile and cruel because they come to value being above others. I have a chapter in progress that reflects this.

Seriously, if a person is raised to think that s/he has the right kill another because they were insulted, being part of a criminal family and all... that person won't consider it wrong, nor lose any sleep over it. THAT is truly evil, yet they are not doing what they believe is wrong. It's that what they learned to be right goes against what everyone else thinks is right.

vanir
07-18-2009, 05:45 AM
Ah but Yuthura, anthropic principle challenges this notion you present. Whilst certainly it may be said that many practioners of evil behaviour arrive there by self justification, it must also be said another perspective entirely...

If good and evil were truly only ever relative terms, how could anybody have come up with them then? How did anybody come up with the notion of morality if there is actually no such thing? I mean it would be like imagining a twentieth dimensional reality, since it has never really been experienced and certainly can't truly be visited, how could anyone possibly describe its content or even imagine to? It would remain forever an abstract with no more than a title for conceptualisation.
But we acknowledge common law as right and wrong in the simplest sense, murder, rape, theft are wrong. How did we ever think of this?
How did we ever come up with the term "victim" instead of only having the term "loser hahaha" as a society, individually? Why is it your face turns red when mum walks in on you sticking needles in your baby sister's belly to make her cry? Why doesn't mum just pat you on the back and say, "Good job, it's her problem for being so small and weak."
??

Qui-Gon Glenn
07-18-2009, 03:47 PM
Just remember that most people are inherently good and while it seems like all we hear about is evil-doing on the news...almost none of the good things that go on in the world get reported on....the world is more good than bad no matter what anyone can say...

Are you serious?!?!

That is an extremely optimistic view, and one that has me scratching my head.

I would say that most people are inherently apathetic, and as we all know, apathy is death! Yet people choose it all the time.... most of them, I would argue. Perhaps most people intend well, but that is a little lazy IMO, and ignores the fact that intention is far from outcome.

In earlier posts I was disturbed by the idea that the ends could justify the means. Thank you TA and Vanir for handling that part of the equation.

Justification is a philosophical concept, one that works for the sane ones, but not the ill... thus I find a flaw in that philosophy. A place where philosophy and science have yet to satisfactorily merge.

Great thread! And bullies get squashed around me.... I was always the youngest kid in my group, but also one of the biggest. I was also very sensitive, and far from a bully, so I became a target - I was big enough to pick on, even though I was too young for it. As a result, I learned that despite my youth, I was stronger than the bullies - all it took was standing up to them.

Of course, that was in suburban Colorado, and kids had fists for weapons and little else.... the good ol' days.

Trench
07-18-2009, 03:52 PM
I agree. People who let other people do evil things, or just don't care about it are just as evil. No matter what anyone says.
Even if you can't do anything about it you should get someone who could. Or support the people who can and who are doing something about it.

vanir
07-20-2009, 03:10 AM
Indeed one of the classic quotes is that good men doing nothing is evil enough.

One of the most disturbing depictions of an evil society I have ever read was a teen-rated fantasy trilogy (Drizzt Do'Urden the darkelf). In some of the books the society of Underdark and the Dark Elves was described in detail, its sociology and typical behavioural protocols.
The thing which disturbed me is that it reflected beautifully my own experience and that of others, as minoritised homeless youth living in Church Hostels or on the streets. I mean you'd think this guy was there, every attitude, even some home life before this, it was spot on.
Yet the author was a college age student at the time he wrote it (and received several awards for his work).
I started thinking seriously about the Jungian collective subconscious around this time, since his descriptions were so uncanny, so specific, so accurate.

But here's the disturbing thing. He was talking about Hell on Earth.


I'll edit to tell another story.
Around that time I got in trouble with a Church, they owned the house and a few of the flock were living there. Actually I've got a few stories about that as I was in several.
Anyway you get your extremists just like Muslims but your Christian kind are running around with their mythology, Satan and the angels, blah blah blah. They're running around putting social victims like streetkids through more crap with judgement and silliness. I'm standing there saying c'mon, you guys don't even know what the words you're saying even mean. You don't know what it represents, you don't know what you're talking about and you're presuming an absolute authority over people's lives.
So I'm trying to appeal to the pastor and he gets it a little better than the house staff. Especially considering some of them are doing naughty things with the kids. And I'm telling him, why don't they listen? Clearly I can explain what they're talking about better than they can and they just run off into this extremist mythological crap instead of even trying to understand what the words mean.
And he says it's faith.
I said I've got way more of that than these guys, they don't even believe the things they say, not truly because they don't understand what they're talking about, they can't put it into their own words and they can't put it into action. They just say one thing and do whatever they want regardless.
So he says but with you it's not faith. You've seen, so you know and that isn't faith.

Anyways like a decade later this conversation appears in the film Constantine where Keanu Reeves' character is having a chat with Gabriel and it gets me wondering about that whole Jungian collective subconscious thing again.

Master Shake
07-20-2009, 03:32 AM
I mean you'd think this guy was there, every attitude, even some home life before this, it was spot on.
Yet the author was a college age student at the time he wrote it (and received several awards for his work).
It's called research, and I reckon he did a pretty good job.

vanir
07-20-2009, 03:55 AM
In junior high we had a substitute teacher take over around curriculum time, she gave us a short story project as a count towards the year's grading as much of our earlier work was still in the hands of the regular teacher, who was in hospital.

She gave us all a photo of a dog jumping around in a field, an elderly farmer who obviously owned the animal standing in the background.

I wrote this story about an old homeless man who lived in a cave, the dog was his only friend. The dog would find carrion meals for them, and the old man would share them with his friend.
Turned out a little prophetic but anyways.

I think it was pretty well written, I've always spent a lot of time in libraries and have pretty good grammar and language use.
But I actually got a downgraded mark, barely a pass. I approached the teacher and asked her why, since I was always interested in writing and if I could improve I'd like to know how.
She said she believed I had plagiarised the story.

I didn't, I just made it up. I didn't research it either, I just felt like writing about a lonely old man the world ignores.


I think sometimes the research is just empathy.

Master Shake
07-20-2009, 09:34 AM
I think sometimes the research is just empathy.
That teacher was either full of it,

or he passed the Lilarcor quest in BG2.

Q
07-21-2009, 02:58 PM
^Awesome reference, there. :thumbsup: