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Lord of Hunger
07-25-2009, 04:06 AM
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?p=2654740

Since RedHawke said that the above thread should no longer be a place to discuss the morality of using the leaked beta or making fixes for it, I made thread here. :) Feel free to not only discuss this topic but also delve into other TSLRP-related issues if it has some relevance to the general discussion.

Q
07-25-2009, 08:21 AM
Is posting bugfixes for the leak any less moral than using the anticipation surrounding a popular modding project to effectively troll an entire gaming community while hiding behind deniability and "modder's ethics" for the past couple of years?

I'll readily acknowledge that TSLRP certainly didn't start out that way, but that's exactly what Dashus has been doing with it ever since it became obvious that the mod was more than likely going to end up as a black spot rather than a gold star on the team members' respective resumes for failing to live up to that ridiculous amount of hype. If his latest publicity stunt didn't prove what I've been saying for nearly a year, now, then nothing will. TSLRP is little more than a large-scale experiment in trolling, now.

TSLRP has garnered more attention and generated more controversy than it will ever be worth even if it is released, which at this point I seriously doubt that it ever will be. It would be best for the community to just ignore it and let it die in the obscurity that it deserves.

EnderWiggin
07-25-2009, 09:49 AM
I used to be one of the most staunch defenders of TG.

But honestly, I remember telling one of my friends about a year ago that the mod was almost released. Obviously, that's not the case.

As far as I know, nothing that WRFan has done has broken any of the rules of LucasForums. Since he hasn't, I'm going to come out and say that he's well within his rights as a community modder.

Although, if I could vote, I would just vote to forget completely about TSLRP - seeing as it was pretty much a disappointment to people across the globe, and speaks badly about everyone in this modding community (by association).

_EW_

Web Rider
07-25-2009, 10:01 AM
Anyone defending TG can, IMO, shove it. It's been YEARS since their project started and for the first one I was eagerly anticipating it. While I realize that it's a long process not only limited to game fixes, but other mod integration, I've seen far more ambitious mods get done much faster and more completely than them.

So, my two cents is: not only should this guy post fixes, but people should shut the heck up about it, and he should finish all their work too and post that. Because clearly TG is too lazy or incompetent to do so.

edit: ya know I just realized, the biggest irony, is that TG doesn't have official permission from, nor are they part of the Bioware team. Hence, they don't have permission to do what they're doing. So people saying this guy is out of line for doing the same thing TG is doing, is just silly.

Q
07-25-2009, 11:07 AM
Do you know who I really feel sorry for in all of this? The members/former members of T-G whose respective parts of the mod were complete or nearly complete a year and a half ago.

While certainly not several years' worth of work, it's a shame that the fruits of all of their labors, some of which is very high-quality modding, are going to waste due to the actions (or inaction) of one person. It would be great if they would just give that person the finger and donate their work to Stoney's and zbyl2's project.

Jae Onasi
07-25-2009, 11:28 AM
I understand the frustration here, but let's remember not to flame--Dashus and other members of TG are LF members too, after all. Please express your displeasure constructively or not at all. The mods reserve the right to shut this thread down at any time if it looks like it's going to turn into an "I hate TG" thread.

Morally sound? It's a game. We're not talking about issues that affect people's lives in any substantial way.

Miltiades
07-25-2009, 11:48 AM
I don't see a problem with it. Even less so when he posted the fix as a suggestion than releasing it as a fix (I wouldn't have any problem with that either, though).

mimartin
07-25-2009, 12:43 PM
Forgetting to whom we are speaking for a moment

Do I think it is right for someone to take another’s work and distributed it without permission? No

Do I think it is right for someone to assist in that distribution by making it work better? No

I really don’t see how assigning a victim make it any more right or wrong for me.

How is this any different than me taking one of RedHawke, stoffe or any of the other wonderful modders here mods and distributing their brilliant mods without permission on another website of my choice?

Morally sound? It's a game. We're not talking about issues that affect people's lives in any substantial way.
I can’t say I agree with this. As I have no idea how much work went into the beta. I'm also not passionate about many things in life, if someone stole something that I worked diligently and passionately on for a number of years, it would affect my life. It would most defiantly affect my future work and my need to release said work to a ungrateful public.

Now if I was getting paid -- scratch all that. :xp:

Q
07-25-2009, 01:02 PM
I've used this analogy to put this situation into perspective before, and I'll use it again here because I think that it works: the whole theft of the beta is reminiscent of a case where repeated blue-balling over an extended period of time finally led to rape.

Did the constant, sadistic blue-balling make the act of rape justifiable or any less deplorable? No.

Should we feel sorry for the victim(s)? Well, I sure as hell don't. :carms:

Shem
07-25-2009, 01:07 PM
I think the biggest thing is if any of the Team Gizka members know of what's going on and what they think. Personally I say it is wrong unless a member of the team comes by and says it's okay.

Druganator
07-25-2009, 01:28 PM
all this dude did was say, hey, if you were one of the people that downloaded the leaked beta, and it runs badly, here's some things you can do so it runs better. I don't see anything wrong with this since he wasn't giving anyone the actual beta so it's for people who had it already and were using regardless of "rules" (they arent really punishable by anything except a ban from a forum if you say you have it)

Master Shake
07-25-2009, 04:59 PM
Morally sound? It's a game. We're not talking about issues that affect people's lives in any substantial way.
QFT.

Besides he's telling you how to fix bugs, not actually fixing them and releasing it as his own mod.

Bimmerman
07-25-2009, 09:56 PM
So I may be a good bit behind the times, but last time I checked in on the TG situation (admittedly...2006? 7?) there was still a lot of goodwill and anticipation for their efforts. I'm honestly a bit surprised at how much they're being trashed here....are there any threads I can get a link to to explain why?!?

As I know nothing about this current situation, I realize I'm posting OT. If anyone has threads, please PM me so as not to derail the thread more.

Web Rider
07-25-2009, 10:02 PM
Forgetting to whom we are speaking for a moment

Do I think it is right for someone to take anotherís work and distributed it without permission? No

Do I think it is right for someone to assist in that distribution by making it work better? No

I really donít see how assigning a victim make it any more right or wrong for me.

How is this any different than me taking one of RedHawke, stoffe or any of the other wonderful modders here mods and distributing their brilliant mods without permission on another website of my choice?


I canít say I agree with this. As I have no idea how much work went into the beta. I'm also not passionate about many things in life, if someone stole something that I worked diligently and passionately on for a number of years, it would affect my life. It would most defiantly affect my future work and my need to release said work to a ungrateful public.

Now if I was getting paid -- scratch all that. :xp:

Of course, since he didn't do any of that, that's all really out the window isn't it? What he did do was essentially tell us the commands we needed to type in order to run ipconfig. There's no difference between what he did and what TG did. They both said "Look, this thing is buggy, here's some bug fixes." heck, unlike TG, he didn't even release anything without permission. He only told us how to fix it if we had it chose to do so.

Det. Bart Lasiter
07-25-2009, 10:03 PM
someone make this thread on the tg forums for my amusement

mimartin
07-25-2009, 11:41 PM
Of course, since he didn't do any of that, that's all really out the window isn't it?
Sorry, I did not know the codes were useless. I was under the impress they did make the beta being used without permission work better. Stupid me for actually believing what I read. :rolleyes: But seeing I am not using the beta I had no way of knowing they did not work.

If the codes do work, then this part of my post does apply. Do I think it is right for someone to assist in that distribution by making it work better? No

Web Rider
07-26-2009, 01:39 AM
Sorry, I did not know the codes were useless. I was under the impress they did make the beta being used without permission work better. Stupid me for actually believing what I read. :rolleyes: But seeing I am not using the beta I had no way of knowing they did not work.
Somehow, I fail to see why permission is required beyond a courtesy to use something that permission was never given to make. That's like saying I need your permission to drive your stolen car. Clearly you don't care about permission, otherwise instead of deriding this poor fellow who is simply trying to help, you would be bemoaning EVERYONE who is using this leaked mod.

Aside from the fast that this person did not leak the beta, you're only argument is that "he didn't get permission." Permission for what? To download a leaked beta? To use it? To use his own computer programming smarts to provide a way to improve it?

It's not like he's impeding TG's progress(if what they're even doing can even be called that), he's not calling them out, he's not hating on them, he's simply being helpful. And yet somehow, this helpfulness requires "permission". Permission from whom? TG did not get permission to make their mod. In fact, I think I can safely say that none of the modders here got any sort of permission from Bioware to make these mods. In all reality, the ONLY permission that any of us have is through a user contract which we have all violated by altering the game.

So, pardon me if I find your accusation of "lack of permission" at best hypocritical, and at worst, blatantly false. Much along the lines of a man who decries homosexuality while they sleep with other men. This guy did the same thing any other modder did. They provided a way to fix bugs to all of us who want to see bug fixes. They did so in the same way every other modder did, by finding bugs, and fixing them. The same way TG did, the same way any other modder who provided bug fixes did.

If he is immoral, then so are they, so are you, and so am I. If you are not willing to admit your immorality for failing to acquire proper permission to alter the content of someone else's work, then you are hardly in a position to call anyone else out. What's that line? Oh yes. "Don't throw stones when you live in glass houses." If, in fact, you admit that you are also immoral for the same actions, then once again, you have no room to speak because your actions are no different. I can hardly say you are immoral for modding TSL, as I have done the same.

If you think modding without permission is fine when you've paid for the product, then I should point out that all KOTOR and TSL mods are free. Which can clearly be used to demonstrate the same belief, if you've paid for it(and the cost is zero), then you automatically have modding rights. Permission or no.


If the codes do work, then this part of my post does apply.
No, it does not. See above. Of course, by your own logic, TG's work is also immoral because it works, and they also, failed to acquire permission.

Pavlos
07-26-2009, 06:38 AM
So, pardon me if I find your accusation of "lack of permission" at best hypocritical, and at worst, blatantly false. Much along the lines of a man who decries homosexuality while they sleep with other men. This guy did the same thing any other modder did. They provided a way to fix bugs to all of us who want to see bug fixes. They did so in the same way every other modder did, by finding bugs, and fixing them. The same way TG did, the same way any other modder who provided bug fixes did.
While I don't have an opinion on the "morals" of such a situation, mostly because the way in which one would go about defining them is several miles above my head, I would like to point out that LucasArts actually condones modding of their games. Hence: LucasFiles (http://www.lucasfiles.com/) -- an officially sanctioned site for mods.

Edit: I can't find the link right now but I'm also fairly certain that LucasArts has a press release somewhere on their site which details their decision to allow mods across the board. The Source/MacLeodCorp used to have it in his signature...

mimartin
07-26-2009, 09:27 AM
No, it does not. See above. Of course, by your own logic, TG's work is also immoral because it works, and they also, failed to acquire permission.
No, that is by your logic. What I wrote had nothing to do with your logic. You failed to read what I wrote and added your own logic and meaning to the words you did scan. AGAIN!

Do I think it is right =/ morally wrong as you accuse me of writing.

Does the codes improve the game play or the beta? If so, then the codes are assisting with people using the beta without permission is all I am implying.

Show me where I “bemoaned” anyone?

I simply stated my opinion and did not judge anyone. I would not use the beta and I would not use the codes because I do not feel it is right, everyone else has to make their own choices in life. I do not make those for them nor would I want to as you so elegantly seem to falsely imply.



=/ means does not equal for those of you following along at home. I’m sure it will soon have a different meaning in this thread. :rolleyes:

Web Rider
07-26-2009, 10:41 AM
Do I think it is right =/ morally wrong as you accuse me of writing.
When something is not right...it is?...Wrong. So if you don't think something is "right" you think it's wrong. Since it stems from your own personal beliefs, it's your own morality. Therefore, it's morally wrong(to you).

Does the codes improve the game play or the beta? If so, then the codes are assisting with people using the beta without permission is all I am implying.
And? They were playing the beta already. Something which everyone agrees is bad, buggy, and outdated. If TG have any intention of releasing a finished product, you can get back to me on this being relevant THEN.

Show me where I “bemoaned” anyone?
Oh, the parts where you compare this to stealing other modders work.

\I simply stated my opinion and did not judge anyone. I would not use the beta and I would not use the codes because I do not feel it is right, everyone else has to make their own choices in life. I do not make those for them nor would I want to as you so elegantly seem to falsely imply.
That's nice if you don't want to use them, but that's not the point of this topic. This topic is to discuss the morality of HIS actions, not yours. So if you don't use the beta, anything he did has no relevance to you, so why is it wrong?

Yes, didn't "judge" aside from where you said he was wrong and stealing. Yeah, totally not judging.

=/ means does not equal for those of you following along at home. I’m sure it will soon have a different meaning in this thread. :rolleyes:
Yes Awesomest, coolest person on the whole Lucasforums boards it's used as an emoticon, I don't know, on like 90% of the internet.
I haven't read 100%, let alone 90% of the internet to know this for sure, and I suspect you haven't either ;) . I'm sure you can use context to figure out he meant =/= when using =/, and the fact that he almost always uses LF smileys if he does use the rare emoticon. :) Keep it civil, please. --Jae

mimartin
07-26-2009, 11:14 AM
When something is not right...it is?...Wrong. So if you don't think something is "right" you think it's wrong. Since it stems from your own personal beliefs, it's your own morality. Therefore, it's morally wrong(to you). Yet, since I do not hold anyone to my code, your point is moot.

If TG have any intention of releasing a finished product, you can get back to me on this being relevant THEN. And just who is making it relevant now.

Oh, the parts where you compare this to stealing other modders work. So your point is the beta does not involve other modders work used without their permission? Got it. :rolleyes:

That's nice if you don't want to use them, but that's not the point of this topic. This topic is to discuss the morality of HIS actions, not yours. So if you don't use the beta, anything he did has no relevance to you, so why is it wrong? Since when am I not allowed to voice my opinion on a discussion forum? I’m sorry I did not get that memo from the staff. I’ll be sure to get that cleared up with Darth333.

Yes, didn't "judge" aside from where you said he was wrong and stealing. Yeah, totally not judging. Never said either. I said I did not think it was right. Never wrote anything or use the word stealing. You can stop trying to judge me by reading between the lines. I choice my word carefully and write what I mean.

If you are trying to flamebait me into losing my temper, that will not work. :)

JediAthos
07-26-2009, 12:22 PM
can't we all just...get along?:hugs:

Jae Onasi
07-26-2009, 03:50 PM
can't we all just...get along?:hugs:
Yes, please! :)

I can’t say I agree with this. As I have no idea how much work went into the beta. I'm also not passionate about many things in life, if someone stole something that I worked diligently and passionately on for a number of years, it would affect my life. It would most defiantly affect my future work and my need to release said work to a ungrateful public.
I hear you, and to some extent I agree since they worked pretty hard on it (still are working). I'd love to see it released because I'd love to see my game working better and see some of the cut content. Sadly, I don't know if they're ever going to release it, especially since the leaked beta kind of let the air out of their balloon, I think.

The leaked beta is a 'fait accompli', and issuing a fix for that doesn't seem to me as big a deal as the actual leaked beta itself. It would be courteous for WRFan to acknowledge the work involved by TG if s/he hasn't already, and to say "hey, this is just temporary to get you by until TSLRP is officially released--please support them!!"

This is a gray area because TG doesn't have any true rights to their mod legally. It's only our policy, our sense of 'fairness' along with the courtesy and respect that we choose to give modders and mods here that protects them and their work from 'theft'. I'd love to see TG release part of the mod with the fixes, or perhaps comment on WRFan's fix, too, to see what they think about it.

The reason I went "eh?" at the title is because I think of morality issues on a big scale--war, famine, poverty, mass murder, human rights oppression, and so on, and this seems so small in comparison that it's almost silly to compare. People dying from starvation because of inhumanity vs. discussion of whether it's morally sound to release a fix for a leaked beta--it's just kind of weird to compare the two on the same level of morality, even if I think honesty, truth, and respect for others' property is extremely important. Don't get me wrong--I don't think TG's work is silly at all, and when the mod is released finally, I'll be one of the first in line waiting to download it. I was reacting more to what the title was than the right/wrong of releasing a fix for a leaked beta.

Druganator
07-26-2009, 04:30 PM
So your point is the beta does not involve other modders work used without their permission? Got it. :rolleyes:
He isn't releasing the beta that some people are already using. he is not helping anyone to get the beta. all he is doing is saying "If you already have it, here are some things I figured out on how to fix some issues."

HE(i'm assuming WRFan is a he) didn't steal that.

EnderWiggin
07-26-2009, 04:45 PM
The reason I went "eh?" at the title is because I think of morality issues on a big scale--war, famine, poverty, mass murder, human rights oppression, and so on, and this seems so small in comparison that it's almost silly to compare.
Nonsense. Each action has a moral value. I don't think that anyone was saying, "This is worse than killing babies." I do think that the OP was saying, "Is WRFan doing the right thing?".

I personally see no moral objection, and furthermore, no rules broken as per SWK policy. (He hasn't released them, right? For now, it's just a discussion, and thus, not infringement as defined here.) It's unfortunate that it has come to this - if TG had followed through on their plans, we wouldn't be discussing this.

People dying from starvation because of inhumanity vs. discussion of whether it's morally sound to release a fix for a leaked beta--it's just kind of weird to compare the two on the same level of morality, even if I think honesty, truth, and respect for others' property is extremely important.
Huh? :confused:

I'm not sure why you think that some things are debatable and others are not... We're just having a friendly chat on a forum - we're not petitioning Obama to bring this up at the next session of Congress. Less of a comparison than you seem to think.


_EW_

mimartin
07-26-2009, 05:07 PM
He isn't releasing the beta that some people are already using. he is not helping anyone to get the beta. all he is doing is saying "If you already have it, here are some things I figured out on how to fix some issues."

HE(i'm assuming WRFan is a he) didn't steal that.

Never wrote he did. I wrote
Do I think it is right for someone to assist in that distribution by making it work better? No ;) Never said he stole anything. I said he was making something easier to use that was being used without permission. You are reading my reply to another poster and taking it out of context. It was speaking to the beta and not the codes. Or is it your intention to that the beta did not involve other modders work?

I'm also not saying it is against any rules here. As far as I am concerned it is not since RedHawke wrote it was not.

All I was saying is I do not think it was right.

jrrtoken
07-26-2009, 05:13 PM
The reason I went "eh?" at the title is because I think of morality issues on a big scale--war, famine, poverty, mass murder, human rights oppression, and so on, and this seems so small in comparison that it's almost silly to compare.Er, alright, but I believe it still could be considered a moral/legal issue. Much like with the film and music industry, DRM, piracy, digital distribution, and other issues are still morally and legally challenging. As of now, thousands of people are being "limited" to how many times they can install any game like Spore, even though they already spent a good deal of money to play a rather mediocre game to begin with. I'd say that this same morally/legally questionable practice can be just as controversial as domestic wiretapping without a court order, or such.

Might I also add that all of those injustices have been around since the dawn of civilization, and therefore, has been the norm, regardless of how many have attempted to bring about an end to them. I'd also add that no one person can single-handedly end those injustices, even if governments gave damn. The topic that we're is a relatively new moral issue brought about on society, in a matter of speaking.People dying from starvation because of inhumanity vs. discussion of whether it's morally sound to release a fix for a leaked beta--it's just kind of weird to compare the two on the same level of morality, even if I think honesty, truth, and respect for others' property is extremely important.Again, if anyone really cared about ending world hunger, they wouldn't really make much of a difference alone, even if they decided to actually do something about it. If the US pledged billions to fight world hunger abroad, there will still be poverty, disease, and famine. It's quite a futile effort, much akin to the "War on Drugs", but it's altruistic in nature than the comparison.

Either way, I really think that the US should try to eliminate poverty domestically, before pledging a cent to some third-world nation with barely even enough money to support itself, whereas any other Western nation has more than enough money to dramatically reduce domestic poverty.

Totenkopf
07-26-2009, 09:06 PM
I think it's pretty iffy, but no real big deal in the end. About as morally repugnant as you making a copy of a CD your friend doesn't have and giving it to him/her for a roadtrip or just a gift in general. Face it, modding is technically illegal, but tolerated by devs b/c it enhances the gaming experience and may help push more of their product. I seriously doubt a bunch of people are going to go rush to download the beta copy b/c WRFan has reworked a few scripts. Really, though, people here shouldn't get too exercised b/c their pov clashes w/someone else....even if they are moral contortionists: Now if I was getting paid -- scratch all that. :xp: :D

Druganator
07-27-2009, 02:42 AM
Oh, the parts where you compare this to stealing other modders work.




So your point is the beta does not involve other modders work used without their permission? Got it. :rolleyes:



WRFan stole no work in giving the steps to fix a buggy beta that many people downloaded.you implied he did by responding to Web Rider's statement the way you did. If you misspoke then correct yourself.


hell, i had it before i knew we werent supposed to because i thought it was the complete version because someone had released it as such. I have since removed it as i do not want to have something that incomplete messing up my game.

And personally i don't see what's wrong with using a leaked beta for a MODIFICATION of a video game. it's not stealing if it's intended to be free anyway. That's like saying "oh you can have the cookies for free but, nope, no cookie dough, that's stealing"

mimartin
07-27-2009, 08:52 AM
WRFan stole no work in giving the steps to fix a buggy beta that many people downloaded.you implied he did by responding to Web Rider's statement the way you did. If you misspoke then correct yourself.
Nope have not misspoken and no, did not say he had stolen. I wrote that it was not right for someone to assist with the beta by providing the codes.

There is nothing I see illegal about using a leaked modification (as far as I can see). I do see something unethical about using something someone worked so hard on without their permission.

So I do see something unethical about making it easier for others to use the beta.

If you do not see a problem with someone being trusted as a beta tester and rewarding that trust by distributing that beta to others. Then you most likely will not have a problem with someone making codes to make using the beta easier. Thus you will disagree with my assessment. It is unethical thus not right. I never wrote or implied that WRFan stole anything. I agree he was very helpful and if it would have been any other mod being used by permission that he assisted on then I would commend him for his help, but the fact that it is a leaked TSLRP being used without permission does not allow me to do so.

That's like saying "oh you can have the cookies for free but, nope, no cookie dough, that's stealing" I'd actually agree, it would be stealing. The owner of the property has the right to put conditions on its use. If said owner says you can have the finished product for free, then the cookie is free. That does not mean the owner forgoes his/her rights to ownership until the prescribed conditions are meet (it is cookie). Until the product is a cookie he/she still retains ownership of the ingredients and even the cookie dough, so the owner can do with it what he or she wants. If he/she does not want you to have the cookie dough, then it would be stealing to take the dough without permission.

Web Rider
07-27-2009, 05:07 PM
I'd actually agree, it would be stealing. The owner of the property has the right to put conditions on its use. If said owner says you can have the finished product for free, then the cookie is free. That does not mean the owner forgoes his/her rights to ownership until the prescribed conditions are meet (it is cookie). Until the product is a cookie he/she still retains ownership of the ingredients and even the cookie dough, so the owner can do with it what he or she wants. If he/she does not want you to the cookie dough, then it would be stealing to take the dough without permission.

Which once again you should recall that not a single modder here owns anything they've created for Kotor. It all falls under "fan" work, which is entirely at the whimsy of the owner of the proprietary rights of the product you're altering. Under the law, said owner has the rights to tell you to stop or to use anything you've made because everything you're doing is based on their work.

What we're trying to get you to realize, is that what WRFan did was make a mod. A mod for a "game"(the TG beta), that lots of people have and shouldn't, but have anyway...It's not like nobody bootleged Kotor right? >_> So saying that he is wrong because he made a mod for a game he shouldn't have, is essentially saying that all modders are wrong, unless they've bought the game. And they're still wrong if the game is recalled.

He isn't in the wrong for having a buggy beta, the guy who leaked it is. And he isn't in the wrong for wanting to be helpful and fix it.

And please, don't bother with this "well, I didn't say he was wrong." Or "I didn't say he was wrong, only unehtical" or "I didn't say he was immoral, only not-right." It's all the same thing.

EnderWiggin
07-27-2009, 05:08 PM
I'd actually agree, it would be stealing. The owner of the property has the right to put conditions on its use. If said owner says you can have the finished product for free, then the cookie is free. That does not mean the owner forgoes his/her rights to ownership until the prescribed conditions are meet (it is cookie). Until the product is a cookie he/she still retains ownership of the ingredients and even the cookie dough, so the owner can do with it what he or she wants. If he/she does not want you to have the cookie dough, then it would be stealing to take the dough without permission.

Excellent points, my friend.

_EW_

mimartin
07-27-2009, 05:33 PM
And please, don't bother with this "well, I didn't say he was wrong." Or "I didn't say he was wrong, only unehtical" or "I didn't say he was immoral, only not-right." It's all the same thing. No, I will only say you keep taking what I write out of context. I was talking about cookies in what you quoted. :rolleyes:


That's like saying "oh you can have the cookies for free but, nope, no cookie dough, that's stealing" I'd actually agree, it would be stealing. The owner of the property has the right to put conditions on its use. If said owner says you can have the finished product for free, then the cookie is free. That does not mean the owner forgoes his/her rights to ownership until the prescribed conditions are meet (it is cookie). Until the product is a cookie he/she still retains ownership of the ingredients and even the cookie dough, so the owner can do with it what he or she wants. If he/she does not want you to have the cookie dough, then it would be stealing to take the dough without permission.

What we're trying to get you to realize, is that what WRFan did was make a mod. No, he only provided codes (http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost.php?p=2651981&postcount=1).

I also assure you that I know it is only the codes. I understand that it does not take any part of the work Team Gizka put into TSLRP and use it in any way. That is why I never said he stole anything despite the baseless accusation to the contrary.

I would think if you were trying to convince anyone of anything you would first want to actually know what the other person was saying and not assign your own meaning to what was written.

I’ll make it easier.
Do I think it is right for someone to take another’s work and distributed it without permission? No This was directed at the distribution of the TSLRP. As far as I know this has nothing to do with TRfan, but without this information I would have no problem with the codes. Had Team Gizka released the mod and then TRfan issued the fix codes I would see no problem with the codes. The fact that I see the unauthorized release of another work as unethical makes me consider my next statement valid.

Do I think it is right for someone to assist in that distribution by making it work better? No Since TSLRP was released without permission I do not see how I can conclude anything but the codes to make TSLPR run better are unethical.

I really don’t see how assigning a victim make it any more right or wrong for me. This and the rest up to Jae’s quote had to do with people saying the theft of the beta was alright since it was from Team Gizka. As it says it has to do with the victim.

@Totenkopf this: Now if I was getting paid -- scratch all that. :xp:
This had to do with those that worked on TSLRP. It would effect my work, unless I was getting paid. In my line of work people steal the work I put into preparation all the time. It does not make me work any less efficiently because I am getting paid for it. As we all know Team Gizka isn’t.


**************
I never said WRFan stole anything. Never said WRFan did anything morally wrong because I do not think you can hold another to your moral code. Never said the codes were illegal. I said the codes were unethical and I do consider it wrong. Never bemoaned WRFan. If I bemoaned anyone it was the person that stole the beta in the first place.

Also don’t say the codes will not allow others to use the beta. hell, i had it before i knew we werent supposed to because i thought it was the complete version because someone had released it as such. I have since removed it as i do not want to have something that incomplete messing up my game. So as is, the beta was unplayable for you Druganator?

Q
07-27-2009, 09:25 PM
It was playable for me. Buggy as hell, but playable. I even got through the HK factory, which a lot of people could not do. When I got stuck where a script wasn't firing, all it took was repeatedly reloading saves until it did fire.

Wow, mimartin, you've put a lot of thought into this. You might say that I've taken a comparatively simplistic view of of the entire situation. :p

Totenkopf
07-27-2009, 10:42 PM
@Totenkopf this:
This had to do with those that worked on TSLRP. It would effect my work, unless I was getting paid. In my line of work people steal the work I put into preparation all the time. It does not make me work any less efficiently because I am getting paid for it. As we all know Team Gizka isnít.


C'mon, you did notice the :D, right? I was ribbing you for making the unacceptability of the act to you based upon remuneration. But I'm a bit curious, since it was a beta version it would only be incomplete, right? So, unless people felt the beta sucked hind-end, why would someone really feel too bad about someone providing a few code fixes for what is essentially a preview? I can understand people being upset about the original "theft"/early release, but it seems that can work both ways in terms of affecting incentive to finish a project. If the beta works pretty well or at least looks intriguing, it can act as a hook for their target audience. If not, then all the hype probably would have worked vs them and sapped any desire to complete the project if reactions were overly negative.

mimartin
07-27-2009, 11:09 PM
C'mon, you did notice the :D, right? I did, but in this thread if felt it necessary to clarify.

why would someone really feel too bad about someone providing a few code fixes for what is essentially a preview?
Personally, Iím not upset about the codes being provided. I was just stating my opinion that I considered it unethical. However, it is far down on my list of things to be upset over or even care about. I do care about my opinion being misrepresented, although that isnít anything to get upset over either. ;)

Q
07-27-2009, 11:09 PM
If not, then all the hype probably would have worked vs them and sapped any desire to complete the project if reactions were overly negative.
That's precisely what happened, IMO. Most people who have played the beta agree that even if completed the mod won't live up to all of the hype. Nothing could, really.

I'll put it this way: while some parts of it are 1st-class modding and blend in seamlessly with the rest of the game, others are obviously and rather amateurishly scabbed-on and still others are just downright unnecessary because they add nothing to the story or the game in general and are just modding for the sake of modding.

Overall the experience had an effect similar to when Ralphie finally gets his decoder pin and decodes his first message, and I believe that this has served to make people even more angry as the hype and BS surrounding the project continue to build.

TSL is a broken game, and unfortunately it will remain broken with or without TSLRP.

Darth Avlectus
07-29-2009, 08:47 PM
I realize I'm treading on thin ice here, but this is roughly analogous, and actually similar to ROM hacking ethics. In other words, you cannot release it as your own if you modified another's work. You basically can do it just so long as it never leaves your property or enters public domain. Yet funnier still it's all very legally grey since it is not technically legal in the first place.

My personal opinion: I wouldn't touch it, no. You wanna improve the existing beta for your own use? Knock yourselves out. :roleyess:

While the license holder may have the legal right (if granted) to actually take any work done by others and release it as their own, I see something wrong with that...somewhere. Ce` le'vie it's reality and people will even get paid.

Though I agree that it has taken far longer than perhaps a more ambiguous project would and should. Hopefully, eventually, TG will finish though and I still wish them the best.

Scatter
08-25-2009, 08:41 AM
Do I think it is right for someone to take anotherís work and distributed it without permission? No

Do I think it is right for someone to assist in that distribution by making it work better? No
errrr... isn't that the very definition of a mod? any mod?

as a modder you are always taking someone else's work, improving upon it (in your opinion ofc), and then distributing it.

this obv. isn't an issue of copyright - although for all the porting is illegal talk around here, it's no more illegal than the actual mods themselves - as TG owns none.

as for morality? looking at it strictly dispassionately, how can it be any more 'immoral' than what TG themselves are (supposedly :D ) doing?