PDA

View Full Version : Souls?


Nedak
08-24-2009, 06:23 PM
Do we have souls? Do dogs have souls? Do ants have souls? Do our cells have souls? If so, do they go to heaven?

A great video made by the AmazingAtheist.

BNau_Cdll3w&feature=sub

Questions to ponder; but I want you to attempt to answer the questions, above and the questions in the video.

Mandalore The Shadow
08-24-2009, 06:27 PM
I think we have souls mabey not our Cells but animals as well thats just my opinion

Te Je'karta Mand'alor
08-24-2009, 06:35 PM
according to the bible only humans do

Litofsky
08-24-2009, 07:06 PM
He seems strangely misanthropic. As for his arguments, opinions that will be attacked and destroyed, proved or refuted. The video has left me temporarily devoid of the will to post, mainly because I foresee this thread devolving wildly into some form of pissing match for no apparent reason.

Good day to you, Sirs and Madams. o_Q

Darth InSidious
08-24-2009, 09:37 PM
i mean the Catholic bible

No.

Also, AmazingAtheist's claim about the evolution of the human brain seems to fly in the face of our nature as carnivores, and indeed, the hunter-gatherers we are descended from. What, precisely, does the human brain need to puzzle out in chasing and snapping the neck of a gazelle that a dog does not in performing some analogous function? I'm sure there are more fundamental issues as well with the idea, but it's nearly 3 AM here, and I'm mainly thinking about adverbial predicates.

The rest of the video seems to be a rant based on a total ignorance of theology, doctrine and dogma, and an insistence on crude positivism. Like most of his videos.

Det. Bart Lasiter
08-24-2009, 10:30 PM
I hate every post in this thread except for litofsky's, kado's and di's. First a video where an angry neckbeard pretends to know what he's talking about, all the while assuming his dazzling wit will cover up this fact. Then we get a wonderful back and forth that consists entirely of what appear to be the worst arguments I have ever seen written in what I can only assume is English.

Well played, Kavar's, well played.

Jae Onasi
08-24-2009, 10:34 PM
OK my loves, Nedak was pretty specific in his OP about what he wanted, so please give specific answers accordingly. If your post disappears in this thread, it was not on topic....

Sabretooth
08-24-2009, 10:34 PM
I think we have souls mabey not our Cells but animals as well thats just my opinion

according to the bible only humans do

Not historicly factual or true

i mean the Catholic bible

I'm not one to spam around a Kavar's thread, but I just had to let it be known that this is one of the most hilarious discussions I have witnessed on LucasForums. :thmbup1:

Darth Avlectus
08-25-2009, 01:50 AM
Humans, yeah.

Animals...I'm not so sure either way. Dreams where they come to basically say goodbye after they've departed could just be dreams, but I'm not going to pass judgment on that. Why should we faithful assume we're absolutely superior to animals? You know I never really completely understood that either. I never agreed with it completely, nor thought it was much more than a difference of opinion. There isn't any way to tell one way or another. Either way, it never really became a bother enough for me to be too awfully concerned with it. I'd rather spend my spare time pondering other stuff. At some point is the inundation with all these questions is itself irrelevant b/c it is a pursuit to no end. We either believe in something more or we don't; we don't know either way,

I've always sort of thought what was true for people is more or less true in some form or another for animals, even regarding the great beyond.

There is a ton of stuff about strange phenomena like this. Sure it could all be a construct and a trick of the mind, but we don't know that either. We also assume we're the only beings which are self aware.

@ DI, I pretty much have to say I pretty much agree. Rantfest.

@ Thread subject: I used to be an atheist, and really I'm not much different now that I am not an atheist, either.

:lol: Yeah, churches can be pretty funny like that sometimes. Theoretical, or for reals.

He has good points; however, he makes a bazillion of them (proof by innundation tm.) then suddenly decided to narrow in on one angle that the subject apparently contradicts everything about itself.

He constructs in the beginning our physical, sensory, and emotional similarities. I guess this is supposed to imply animals are on roughly equal footing to humans. Superiorities/inferiorities are respectively specific/general, I guess.

Great for him. He has a theory. He has all these facts and comes to generalizations that build upon one another. Wonderful. But he's basically assuming people who believe are all alike. Anyone showing difference to that need to have the bazillions of questions put in their face and if they can't *answer* *every* *one* *of* *them* *satisfactorily*, then these different people fail; their differences mean that they are not faithful b/c they don't fit. If they can then it is subject to having exponentially many more quesitons asked and...Is it just me or is there some kind of pattern here?

Seems a little arrogant and abrasive to label-classify. But whatever. I thought I believed, but I guess I don't since I don't follow the bible to the Nth degree exactly like everyone else. I possibly think animals might have a spiritual level--BAH! ZOMG! BLASPHEMUR!

*Ass*uming people don't already think this way, theism and/or atheism notwithstanding: We need to humble ourselves down and just come to a realization that we are all parts of a larger whole? OH WHY THANK YOU SO MUCH! THANK YOU CAPTAIN OBVIOUS! YOU ARE JUST MY ABSOLUTE SUPERHERO!WWWWWIIIIIIIINNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SO, we don't have any proof either way of something beyond.
Still: You're presumptuous/arrogant if you DO believe it since there is not good proof to believe it. Fine, but isn't believeing it's NOT true the same thing but opposite? I thought no proof either way meant, well, no proof either way: absolutely true OR absolutely false.

Wait! Juxtaposed: Bioelectric firings are inside our brains, science discovers. That is "proof" of just what the measurable extent of our being's mind is (despite still largely still being a mystery); therefore any notion of there being something more *must* be false.

Humans are arrogant b/c they have their own theories, notions, opinions and believe it sets them apart from the rest of the world? Hmm. Opinion is basically arrogant. I wonder...

Uhh, isn't his point in his video (to imply to faithful mankind we're arrogant b/c we hold these notions/thories/opinions) another of the same kind??? It _is_ another of the same kind.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Ironic he should tell mankind to humble itself from its arrogant presumptions when he has basically thrust out and shone off in the same way.

Astor
08-25-2009, 05:05 AM
Humans are animals to an extent, albeit highly evolved animals, so if animals don't have a soul, then neither do humans.

I don't think that cells would have souls, but I would think that higher forms of life (including animals) would. I say 'would' because i'm not if there even is such a thing as the soul.

Wookiee Rrudolf
08-25-2009, 09:51 AM
Hmm... interesting question. I can't really say if there is a soul at all but assuming there is then everything alive would have to have a soul. As for the single cells in human body they are only part of bigger whole so they wouldn't have single souls, or maybe those "small single-celled souls" merge together creating "big human soul"? Can't say.

I do have a theory why are people superior to dogs. It's an old joke (WARNING! May not be funny!). Here it goes:
"Once the dogs were enlighten beings that ruled the Earth. Once in a while they all met with God to discus the future of the World.
On one of such a meeting one of the dogs started farting... But none would plead guilty. That angered God and he said: 'You are not worthy now to be the ruling race! For your punishment from now on you will all serve humans. Also you will walk on four legs.'
So now dogs serve humans, walk on four legs and sniff each others backside to find the guilty one." ;)

mimartin
08-25-2009, 12:50 PM
Do we have souls? I have no way of knowing one way or another.
Do dogs have souls?No way of knowing.
Do ants have souls? Still see no way of knowing.
Do our cells have souls?:giveup: ditto

Without any evidence I see no way to determine if souls even exist, so I see no way to determine what does and does not have a soul.

Now if you are asking me if I believe humans have souls, then I would say some of us do. However, that is only based on my own definition of what I believe a soul is and has no bases in logic or science and a very warped base in religion.

Q
08-25-2009, 12:59 PM
As our electronic wizardry advances, I believe that it is only a matter of time before we find out for sure. Anything that exists in this universe must be composed of some form of electromagnetic energy in order to exist, so if it does exist, then it should be in some way detectable, should it not?

Lord of Hunger
08-25-2009, 01:16 PM
The soul is most likely the energy (or according to the Chinese the Chi) that flows through our nerves and possesses a level of consciousness/awareness. This would explain why we haven't "found" the soul with science: it's right there in front of us with another name.

Animals may have energy flowing within them, but do they have consciousness/awareness? I'm inclined to think not. My personal observation and study of animals such as my cat leads me to conclude that animals function purely on their DNA programming. It is probably due to our larger brains that we have the capacity for consciousness/awareness and thus the soul. Without a soul, I doubt any of us could have this conversation because we would simply be eating, sleeping, and spawning/reproducing/making love/having sex.

Q
08-25-2009, 02:16 PM
A lot of people would argue that that is really all that we are doing anyway, though I would disagree with them.

Nedak
08-25-2009, 02:59 PM
Updated my OP with another question that sort of ties in all the other questions.

Should have done it in the first place, but forgot to ;)

Darth InSidious
08-25-2009, 04:27 PM
Given thaht you've updated the video, I'll begin with the usual 'depends on who you ask' copout. :p

Do we have souls?
Yes.

Do dogs have souls? Do ants have souls? Do our cells have souls?
Yes, but not of the same sort. Theirs cease to exist at death.

If so, do they go to heaven?

No, and neither, necessarily, do ours.

Lord of Hunger
08-25-2009, 07:19 PM
@ Evil Q: IMO, he capacity for self-awareness is the step above normal survival activity (shelter, nourishment, and reproduction). Essentially this online conversation is the evidence that human beings have souls. Of course, human beings do function on different levels and some human beings are not very self-aware.

@ Nedak: In response to the new question, it depends on whether or not there is such a thing as "Heaven". I'm inclined to think that Heaven and Hell are human inventions, as I cannot see a benevolent deity designing both Hell (a place where souls are eternally tortured) or Heaven (the very reason why so many people who claim to love and serve their respective concept of God are only doing acts of goodness for their own benefit rather than for the sake of love). Both are equal horrendous by default.

Samuel Dravis
08-25-2009, 07:38 PM
VITALARATHY!

I suppose if you want to know if people have souls I'd have to ask: where'd you hear the word "souls" from anyway? If you want to know if there's anything in a pocket you really do have to say which pocket you're talking about. The same holds here. If you don't specify a certain definition of soul then you clearly have no interest in answering the question.

Darth Avlectus
08-29-2009, 08:53 PM
If I do recall, there is some kind of theory that living beings respond greatly to external influence. While this has many flaws, let us not forget this is one thing Nikola Tesla believed in and as a result had invented wireless transmission of energy which lead to radio communications, despite the flaws in this theory. Just a thought that it may have relevance here.

The soul is most likely the energy (or according to the Chinese the Chi) that flows through our nerves and possesses a level of consciousness/awareness. This would explain why we haven't "found" the soul with science: it's right there in front of us with another name.

You know, I actually have done some studying here. I have seen documentaries with thermal cameras how a doctor of internal energy was able to heat up his hands to a precise point and utilize it for healing purposes. The thermal cam caught it all. It would appear to defy an explanation but I would definitely say there is something more there. There is still so much we don not know nor even understand here. Same goes with the majority of our brains so I am curious if there is any correlation between utilization of these other areas of the brain and the activity that goes on with the energy flow.

I can attest that internal energy is definitely for real. One 86 year old Sensei Aikido master with some experience in chinese Taiji Qiang corrected some of my movements. And just to make sure I hadn't any lingering skepticism about the technique and figure invited me to try it out myself in a sort of soft shove movement. Me one turn, and one turn from him as a "keep practicing ;)" gesture. The rocking movements themselves generate some of it, but definitely not all. This little old man was able to send me flying 6 ft. I to him only a couple inches....No, you couldn't take him on.


My personal observation and study of animals such as my cat leads me to conclude that animals function purely on their DNA programming. It is probably due to our larger brains that we have the capacity for consciousness/awareness and thus the soul. Without a soul, I doubt any of us could have this conversation because we would simply be eating, sleeping, and spawning/reproducing/making love/having sex.

Perhaps. I have never gotten a sufficient explanation how we could have evolved into being self aware--what stimuli would have necessitated such a thing and how did it work? Moreover, where on earth would this stimuli have existed pre-man, even post early man?

I'll agree the brain is the mechanism for it, in part, but not in total.

A lot of people would argue that that is really all that we are doing anyway, though I would disagree with them.

I'd agree: Simply saying that neuroelectric firings in the brain is all that our personal identity is, is a bit of an oversimplification. Just b/c science can't find anything more doesn't mean or prove anything either way.

Those who do believe in something more will claim to it and have faith in it; those who don't believe anything more exists will claim it to not exist due to insufficient proof and lack of answers to every one of their exponentially multiplying questions.

Te Je'karta Mand'alor
08-31-2009, 08:53 AM
Do we have souls? Do dogs have souls? Do ants have souls? Do our cells have souls? If so, do they go to heaven?

A great video made by the AmazingAtheist.

BNau_Cdll3w&feature=sub

Questions to ponder; but I want you to attempt to answer the questions, above and the questions in the video.

there is no evidence that anything has a soul. we can believe it or not but it does not mean we are right. i personaly believe that only humans have souls. i think alot of people here are mixing up souls with existence

Nedak
09-20-2009, 04:05 AM
there is no evidence that anything has a soul. we can believe it or not but it does not mean we are right. i personaly believe that only humans have souls. i think alot of people here are mixing up souls with existence

But you can't exist without a soul.

adamqd
09-20-2009, 06:20 AM
@video... SHUTUP! damn that guy is so annoying.

If a soul is some kind of everliving entity... nope.

If a Soul is the ability to dance and make funky music... Hell no brother.

If a soul is the personality that inhabits our sometimes trivial husks, then yes.

Ray Jones
09-20-2009, 08:44 AM
But you can't exist without a soul.Stones exist. Do stones have souls in your opinion?

Nedak
09-20-2009, 01:25 PM
Stones exist. Do stones have souls in your opinion?

I mean you can't be alive and not have a soul.

Thanks for correcting me. :thmbup1: