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View Full Version : Collumbine style masacre prevented in UK


jonathan7
09-02-2009, 05:36 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/sep/02/manchester-teenagers-columbine-style-attack

Thoughts?

Totenkopf
09-02-2009, 05:44 PM
Good that they were caught. I guess they'll get a stiff sentence. They obviously need time off from the rest of the world.

Astor
09-02-2009, 05:56 PM
It's very concerning, and incredibly fortunate that Manchester Police caught them before they had the chance to enact one of their plans.

There is obviously something wrong with the two of them, and I hope they end up in a Prison Hospital for a very long time. But, British Justice being what it is, I doubt they'll recieve much of a sentence.

SW01
09-02-2009, 06:50 PM
Shocking, truly. It is terrifying, the kind of warped and disturbed person that would call footage of the Columbine shootings 'beautiful', and then write about wanting to 'go from classroom to classroom' killing - that there were two of them is almost unreal.

As said, it is most fortunate that the person they told took it seriously enough to inform the Police.

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
09-02-2009, 07:36 PM
oh wow.

this whole school shooting thing is just becoming more and more popular. its like, the new black.

i heard some guy was planning to do something like this on th 11th and posted info in 4chan. hopefully the FBI should be on his case now.

could be just an attention seeker too. :giveup:
i hope for everyone's sake he gets himself together or finds Jesus or something.

jrrtoken
09-02-2009, 08:13 PM
I find it to be borderline hilarious that there is no real acknowledgment or addressing of the real problem. Obviously, this incident is not an isolated occurrence, particularity when every year or so an actual shooting is carried out, while dozens more are prevented/foiled.

IMO, most government-level action taken place to address the problem has either been incident prevention, usually with the prosecution of the suspected student(s) or more in-school security; I have not seen any real attempt to understand why students are compelled to commit acts such as these. AFAIK, this wasn't a major concern 20+ years ago, therefore, the must be something gravely wrong that is throwing students into a psychopathic mindset such as this.

Darth Avlectus
09-02-2009, 08:49 PM
It's very concerning, and incredibly fortunate that Manchester Police caught them before they had the chance to enact one of their plans.

There is obviously something wrong with the two of them, and I hope they end up in a Prison Hospital for a very long time. But, British Justice being what it is, I doubt they'll recieve much of a sentence.

I just hope your law enforcement agencies aren't acting like CA law enforcement: accusatory of the innocent/victimized and being really obstinate to actually pursuing the criminals.

I find it to be borderline hilarious that there is no real acknowledgment or addressing of the real problem. Obviously, this incident is not an isolated occurrence, particularity when every year or so an actual shooting is carried out, while dozens more are prevented/foiled.

IMO, most government-level action taken place to address the problem has either been incident prevention, usually with the prosecution of the suspected student(s) or more in-school security; I have not seen any real attempt to understand why students are compelled to commit acts such as these. AFAIK, this wasn't a major concern 20+ years ago, therefore, the must be something gravely wrong that is throwing students into a psychopathic mindset such as this.

That is a great point. I may not have seen that it would do much good in the way of affecting convicts in that other thread, but, a preventative measure for our youth before this sort of thing develops and manifests itself, I totally agree with you on. The undercurrents do need an examination.

And you know what? I have often found it is something simple in most cases of the problematic types of kids. Very rarely is there a truly "bad seed in the apple" that needs to be purged. Some could admittedly use a wake up call of sorts. Some just need certain issues addressed from their childhood. Most are lost and need finding or to find their way.

The state, unfortunately, cannot solve the problem in many cases as its hands are already full. Thankfully the community can step in there and affect this area. This is where the people of a community make it what it is. Tragic that this is ignored or at least neglected in so many cases.

Web Rider
09-03-2009, 02:03 AM
The anarchists cookbook, a fake gun, and table-tennis balls do not a violent attack make. And while yes, I am glad that they were "stopped", assuming their plan was legit, I'm wondering how much of this is going to be stretched into "these are horrible kids that need to be eliminated from society!" than actually looking into what's made these kids the way they are.

As several of you have noted, school shootings are on the rise, so, what exactly is going on that's causing this? Clearly the "evil video-games" line isn't working for all of them, cut to the chase, we need more preventative action, rather than reactive action. While this did "prevent" the supposed killing, it does nothing to address what might have caused it.

El Sitherino
09-03-2009, 02:28 AM
Well considering their idolatry of the Columbine kids, I think it's fair to conclude the underlying cause was bullying and a failure on the schools part (and parents of those involved) to correct the situation. Obviously no one enjoys a feeling of persecution and isolation and it's easily understandable how people can make dramatic leaps to violent action because of it. I know we've all seen worse cases of over-reaction to matters that time renders quite meaningless.

Sabretooth
09-04-2009, 11:24 AM
Shocking, truly. It is terrifying, the kind of warped and disturbed person that would call footage of the Columbine shootings 'beautiful', and then write about wanting to 'go from classroom to classroom' killing - that there were two of them is almost unreal.

No, it isn't. Talking to Jae on Skype yesterday, I said that I can appreciate the beauty in a nuclear wasteland, and I was serious. There is beauty in destruction.

I understand why they thought the Columbine shootings to be worth idolizing. They represent an emotion most people like to forget, or imagine it doesn't exist. Is it so far fetched to believe that two boys dreamt of committing a massacre like Columbine? Is it?

I have thought that, I've thought up things a whole lot more twisted than that, but never got around to doing them. Maybe I wasn't determined enough, I can't remember. But you don't have to be twisted or warped to think something that's twisted or warped, that's my point. Even cowards can think of something that is brave. Do they get around do doing something brave?

I empathize with the kids, I understand their frustration with this corrupted world, their burning hatred for it and the desire to fight it, to actively declare war against it, as they said, as opposed to standing by and watching it consume you.

Salzella
09-04-2009, 11:29 AM
these kids are clearly nuttier than squirrel poo and it doesnt exactly look like they were ever going to be able to pull it off in any case. one would-be martyr dreamer and one easily led confused teen.

jonathan7
09-04-2009, 11:40 AM
Well considering their idolatry of the Columbine kids, I think it's fair to conclude the underlying cause was bullying and a failure on the schools part (and parents of those involved) to correct the situation. Obviously no one enjoys a feeling of persecution and isolation and it's easily understandable how people can make dramatic leaps to violent action because of it. I know we've all seen worse cases of over-reaction to matters that time renders quite meaningless.

The small problem with that Sithy is most kids who are bullied and picked on don't decide to shoot everyone. Yes the bullying is wrong and the schools should stop it, but there is still something very wrong with the psyche of someone who would want to/do this.

No, it isn't. Talking to Jae on Skype yesterday, I said that I can appreciate the beauty in a nuclear wasteland, and I was serious. There is beauty in destruction.

Age old phrase; Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Some won't see beauty in a nuclear wasteland, some will.

I understand why they thought the Columbine shootings to be worth idolizing. They represent an emotion most people like to forget, or imagine it doesn't exist. Is it so far fetched to believe that two boys dreamt of committing a massacre like Columbine? Is it?

It's not far-fetched to think people will commit something like this, given that human history is littered with such events. However it is beyond my intellectual copasities to know why you would want to do this, why you would want to idolize this.

I have thought that, I've thought up things a whole lot more twisted than that, but never got around to doing them. Maybe I wasn't determined enough, I can't remember. But you don't have to be twisted or warped to think something that's twisted or warped, that's my point. Even cowards can think of something that is brave. Do they get around do doing something brave?

I don't think its normal to want to slaughter a whole load of random people, I'll just come out and say, murder is wrong, and more over I don't know why anyone would want to mass murder. I may understand the motivations of say Osama Bin-Laden, but I don't want to kill all the Taliban etc for all the evil they've done, I pity them for their hatred and know they have to be stopped.

I empathize with the kids, I understand their frustration with this corrupted world, their burning hatred for it and the desire to fight it, to actively declare war against it, as they said, as opposed to standing by and watching it consume you.

But all they've done is behave in the same evil manner as they are complaining about - they've just done the very thing they hate. They;ve just added to the hatred and the corruption. The answer to this is to respond with love, not hate. You don't fight corruption by being corrupt yourself. And you don't fight hatred by hating, you fight it by loving.

Sabretooth
09-04-2009, 11:52 AM
It's not far-fetched to think people will commit something like this, given that human history is littered with such events. However it is beyond my intellectual copasities to know why you would want to do this, why you would want to idolize this.
Because the human mind has a love of carnage, especially if it's happening to people you do not like. As you've said, history serves a fine example of the terror the human mind can unleash. You're kidding me if you're saying that all of it was driven either by necessity or mental disorder. Why do bullies love tormenting their victims?

I don't think its normal to want to slaughter a whole load of random people, I'll just come out and say, murder is wrong, and more over I don't know why anyone would want to mass murder. I may understand the motivations of say Osama Bin-Laden, but I don't want to kill all the Taliban etc for all the evil they've done, I pity them for their hatred and know they have to be stopped.
Murder is wrong, I agree. But if murder is wrong, then this world has a massive percentage of abnormal humans. Further stuff addressed below.

But all they've done is behave in the same evil manner as they are complaining about - they've just done the very thing they hate. They;ve just added to the hatred and the corruption. The answer to this is to respond with love, not hate. You don't fight corruption by being corrupt yourself. And you don't fight hatred by hating, you fight it by loving.
Of course they could have, but they didn't look at the world like that. They didn't look at the world as a place of good and evil, it was all entirely corrupted, vile and filth-ridden, it was beyond evil, it was hopeless.

The answer they saw was to cleanse it, by destroying it. They saw the corrupt world as one object, which is why they see mass murder as a sensible option. The people are all the same, they are all one and the death of one is the same as the death of another.

They saw this world as something that's threatening them, and they wanted to do as much damage to it as they could. They saw this in Columbine, they saw that exact misanthropy in them. These were the martyrs of their cause, and their idols.

jonathan7
09-04-2009, 12:02 PM
Because the human mind has a love of carnage, especially if it's happening to people you do not like. As you've said, history serves a fine example of the terror the human mind can unleash. You're kidding me if you're saying that all of it was driven either by necessity or mental disorder. Why do bullies love tormenting their victims?

Bullying is wrong - I cannot fathom how one can enjoy torture. That is not to say that there aren't people who enjoy torturing people, I just can't understand it. It's still wrong, its still evil.

Murder is wrong, I agree. But if murder is wrong, then this world has a massive percentage of abnormal humans. Further stuff addressed below.

Murder is evil, I won't pass judgement on "normal" or "abnormal" just noting that there are a considerable number of people who will murder to get what they want.

Of course they could have, but they didn't look at the world like that. They didn't look at the world as a place of good and evil, it was all entirely corrupted, vile and filth-ridden, it was beyond evil, it was hopeless.

The answer they saw was to cleanse it, by destroying it. They saw the corrupt world as one object, which is why they see mass murder as a sensible option. The people are all the same, they are all one and the death of one is the same as the death of another.

They saw this world as something that's threatening them, and they wanted to do as much damage to it as they could. They saw this in Columbine, they saw that exact misanthropy in them. These were the martyrs of their cause, and their idols.

Meh, maybe thats how they saw the world, but they were greatly deluded, and evil because of that.

Fredi
09-04-2009, 12:33 PM
I really wonder what the hell this kids have in their mind? ... damn, dose it sound fun killing people? Good that they caught them.

Sabretooth
09-04-2009, 12:46 PM
I dose it sound fun killing people?

http://cache.kotaku.com/assets/resources/2007/04/screenshot_177908.jpg
http://www.totalvideogames.com/img/uploaded/www.totalvideogames.com_47988_129.jpg
http://gry.downloadcentral.pl/upload/screenshot1088-1.jpg

The pictures speak for themselves.

Web Rider
09-04-2009, 01:22 PM
The pictures speak for themselves.

No, they speak for you. I get no joy looking at them, I feel no arousal at death.

If you think the world is so corrupt that the only solution is to kill everyone you can, then you're not thinking. You are consumed by your own small mind, limited to your tiny little problems, and refuse to see anything besides your hate. You are, in short, self-centered and ignorant. Choosing to make the world suffer because you think your feelings are the be-all end-all definition of the world just makes you selfish and stupid.

And I don't care if someone is offended by that. If that's the way you think, then I'm calling you out. Noone has the right to play God with the lives of others.

Sabretooth
09-04-2009, 01:29 PM
No, they speak for you. I get no joy looking at them, I feel no arousal at death.
If everyone had the same opinion as you did, none of these games would sell. Thing is, not only do they sell well, they inspire designers to make even more games with lots of blood, killing and torture.

If you think the world is so corrupt that the only solution is to kill everyone you can, then you're not thinking. You are consumed by your own small mind, limited to your tiny little problems, and refuse to see anything besides your hate. You are, in short, self-centered and ignorant. Choosing to make the world suffer because you think your feelings are the be-all end-all definition of the world just makes you selfish and stupid.
Of course they were self-centred! It was them versus the corrupt world, and their feelings were all that mattered. Try looking through a solipsist's glasses and you'll see what I mean. To them at least, this world is what you see it as, and what you make of it.

Web Rider
09-04-2009, 01:45 PM
If everyone had the same opinion as you did, none of these games would sell. Thing is, not only do they sell well, they inspire designers to make even more games with lots of blood, killing and torture.
They are FAKE. Say it with me. F..A..K..E. FAKE. There's a huge difference between playing a video game in which you kill people and real life. You can't say that because people enjoy fake-killing it means they enjoy real killing.


Of course they were self-centred! It was them versus the corrupt world, and their feelings were all that mattered. Try looking through a solipsist's glasses and you'll see what I mean. To them at least, this world is what you see it as, and what you make of it.
There is no way I will even consider thinking about how someone could justify it. Yeah, some kids get treated poorly in school. I know, I often was. Hey, guess what, I grew up to be pretty dang well adjusted.

Sabretooth
09-04-2009, 02:03 PM
They are FAKE. Say it with me. F..A..K..E. FAKE. There's a huge difference between playing a video game in which you kill people and real life. You can't say that because people enjoy fake-killing it means they enjoy real killing.
What is the nature of fake killing as opposed to real killing then? Simulated murder of fictional characters? Murdering people that don't exist to start with is ethical, as opposed to murdering people that do?

I didn't say that those who enjoy fake-killing enjoy real killing, because I was talking about killing, the basic idea of killing: destroying the life of a being. I'm not saying that gamers are monsters, I wouldn't be here if that were true. But death and mass murder is a marketable in entertainment: why?

Even if we do consider the people that you mention, who enjoy fake-killing and not real killing, why do they enjoy fake-killing? What is their motivation for this? Why do they find this satisfying, or fun? The examples I gave were games where you didn't have a motivation to kill, mind you. And despite this, people enjoy playing these to torture and murder fictional characters, or commit manslaughter on them.

vanir
09-04-2009, 02:09 PM
The anti-terrorism policing hype aside the only demonstrable offences commited by the boys were threats to kill and detonating improvised explosives, both serious indictable offences.
The conspiracy charges laid are circumstantial at best, though do hold greater penalties if proved in court, and these could be commuted to non-consentual psychiatric care.

So I'm divided on what's best for all concerned here.

What I do not agree with is trying to prosecute these boys or anyone for Columbine and every other school shooting in the world no matter what they say. If they threaten individuals with death or serious injury then prosecute, but don't hold them responsible for any correlations they suggest in the course of presenting what is most likely fictional intentions.

As far as actual conspiracy to murder they were going to what? Shoot a BB-gun at people and throw some tennis balls.
Just get them on the demonstrable threats which were clear and incontrovertable. Leave it at that. Two years suspended, pending psychiatric review.

Goddamn media sensationalism is just like the Inquisition of ye olde times. Anything for a rise. Any social consequence to raise an eyebrow.

mimartin
09-04-2009, 02:32 PM
Please try to keep the discussion civil. Everyone can make their point without resorting to name calling.

vanir
09-04-2009, 02:39 PM
I do apolegise if I might've offended anyone with my sentiments regarding the media presentation of this news article.
I fully support any individual ambitions by members of the forums in media. I've seen some good people around here, I'm sure the industry could use the shakeup.
:)

El Sitherino
09-04-2009, 02:41 PM
The small problem with that Sithy is most kids who are bullied and picked on don't decide to shoot everyone. Yes the bullying is wrong and the schools should stop it, but there is still something very wrong with the psyche of someone who would want to/do this.

And not every black citizen from the early 1900's to the 1970's (hell even today) decided to stand up against their oppressors. I'm not condoning the ideology, but it's a very common theme in all cultures to violently overthrow oppressors. Hell my country was started in a violent overthrow and much of your history is full of these events. The only thing that makes people think of these school shootings as something different is that there is no centralized figure for us to try and see their view through. We don't see what kind of abuse these kids went through, we think "They were going to kill potentially me or people I know!"
I believe in looking for common ground, but I also understand that there's a breaking point to compassion and a fiery drive of passion that can sweep up even the most peace-loving of people.


It's not far-fetched to think people will commit something like this, given that human history is littered with such events. However it is beyond my intellectual copasities to know why you would want to do this, why you would want to idolize this.

People idolize those responsible for many events similiar, the American culture is full of people who fought back, I don't think every British-loyal American during the revolution was a bad person or had any interest in killing someone, but they were killed brutally none the less. Not every soldier who fights for his/her country believes in violence and acting on it, but they're killed as well.
The entire series of Star Wars is based upon the destruction of the Empire, it stands to reason that not everyone in the Death Star was evil, hell there were likely other prisoners who agreed with the struggle, but we don't say "Damnit Luke Skywalker, why'd you do that to my people?! We could've been friends!"

I don't think its normal to want to slaughter a whole load of random people, I'll just come out and say, murder is wrong, and more over I don't know why anyone would want to mass murder.

And some people don't know why anyone would want to willing go to death, it's all about how devoted and strong ones convictions are to their beliefs and ideas. Perhaps these kids were strongly convinced that what they were doing would send a message, clearly the ones diary entry of "Soon they'll learn" is an indicator that they felt there was an injustice that wasn't being addressed.
I have had plenty of problems with *******s who just want to push people around and dominate them, but unlike these kids I never resorted to attempted murder. That's not because I can't visualize it, I can easily see myself doing a lot of ****ed up things to people, but I strongly believe that I can make myself a stronger person, physically and mentally, allowing me to better my situation in life so that I'm not always victimized. It would however be extremely naive to think everyone has this option, look at settlers in Palestine and all those people in Burma. Being that close to death constantly, uncertain of your own worth in the world, it's no wonder many are so easily drawn to brutality and willing to commit massacres. The human heart can drive people to do many stupid things, and I'd say it has more capacity for harm than good, but you can't really simplify something as vast as the human condition, the emotions that stir up in our psyche.
What drives people to commit revenge? Many stories you here about revenge are based on someones love and admiration for another, perhaps "love"* is our real enemy.
* By this of course I mean the misconception of love people throw out, the concept that really just comes from selfish desire to have the world be exactly as they want, their perfect image. A husband loses his wife, of course he loves her, but since someone took his wife it's destroyed his image of how the world should be and he won't accept that. It's a battle of semantics, but it's a truth that cannot be denied or discarded easily



But all they've done is behave in the same evil manner as they are complaining about - they've just done the very thing they hate. They;ve just added to the hatred and the corruption. The answer to this is to respond with love, not hate. You don't fight corruption by being corrupt yourself. And you don't fight hatred by hating, you fight it by loving.
And that's where the vicious cycle of our conflict with our own personal-selves comes in. Instead of leaving doors open and letting wounds heal, people are quick to close the doors and rub salt in their own wounds. The reptilian mind is one of dominance, when you're little and picked on and are provided the opportunity to even the ground, it's easy for that mind to repeat the same attrocities commited on them and often many times over. Cliche as it sounds, look at Germany after the Nazi party came under Hitler's rule. This is a naive nation that was furious they were in a collapse, they were desperate for a revival and struggled daily to find a way to end their suffering. Hitler offered an easy solution, "The jews have all of our money, look at them as they walk around with all the money we lost, they have ruined our country and sullied our motherland. The gypsies and blacks have corrupted our pure blood with their stain."
It'd be kind of juvenile to think every German whole heartedly believed this, but in such a panic and concern for their own well being, many were willing to delude themselves into believing it. People are still willing to delude themselves into believing it's particular groups of people, many people are still sketchy of all Muslims and anyone wearing a scarf.

The sad fact is that until we learn to actually try and settle our differences, we can't eliminate this problem. And schools are not provided the skill and tools to sort out bullying, especially with so many parents excusing the acts with "It's just a little hazing, come on, remember when we were kids? I remember my freshman year I was tied to the flagpole and they pulled down my pants. I got over it and we all moved on."
We all need to look at ourselves, ask ourselves what message are we sending with the things we tolerate. Why are we willing to tolerate emotional abuse, but not physical? Is rape not just as bad as murder? You've deprived someone of their life either way, the first leaves someone alive, but they will never truly have that life, not as it should be.
Remember, emotional abuse is the constant provocator of many horrible actions. You can't just blame the pipe for breaking when the rust is what weakened it. Especially when it is likely in our neglect that we allowed the rust to develop in the first place.

There is no way I will even consider thinking about how someone could justify it. Yeah, some kids get treated poorly in school. I know, I often was. Hey, guess what, I grew up to be pretty dang well adjusted.

And you were very fortunate to have that ability, it makes you a much stronger person in mind than many. But it cannot discount that people have weaknesses. I don't think what they were planning was in any way right, but it's rather cruel in itself to discount them just because you can't understand.
Many people don't understand things, they grow to fear them, and often they'll find themselves willing to do things previously found unthinkable.

As far as actual conspiracy to murder they were going to what? Shoot a BB-gun at people and throw some tennis balls.

I don't know if you've ever been shot with a homemade ballbearing projectile, but I can assure you it's nothing like a bb-gun, it hurts and can cause any number of injuries including fatality and blood poisoning. As for the table tennis balls, they can be made into explosives, but then again so can many things including windex, so that is quite the epitome of circumstantial evidence.

vanir
09-04-2009, 02:50 PM
Some nice points there El Sitherino, food for thought at the very least.
Compassion is the first rule of juory.

Pho3nix
09-04-2009, 08:27 PM
I have to say I'm with Sithy and Sabre on this one.

Hate and depression are two concoctions which are potentially deadly, I've been on that path myself. Luckily I grew out of it.

People seem to forget that murder, torture, bullying, war etc. are all part of human nature, It is extremely naive to assume that you would not do said things if you lived the lives of said people / and or pushed to the edge like Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold.

Given the right circumstances, I believe that even the most staunch pacifist has the ability to take a human life.

Web Rider
09-05-2009, 01:32 AM
What is the nature of fake killing as opposed to real killing then? Simulated murder of fictional characters? Murdering people that don't exist to start with is ethical, as opposed to murdering people that do?
Well yes, under the stated condition that THEY EXIST.

I didn't say that those who enjoy fake-killing enjoy real killing, because I was talking about killing, the basic idea of killing: destroying the life of a being. I'm not saying that gamers are monsters, I wouldn't be here if that were true. But death and mass murder is a marketable in entertainment: why?
Game people don't have lives, they don't have free will, they are no more "human" than your screen saver. Sure they look like people, and they act like people, but that's only because they're programmed to do so. Saying that is like saying if you take down a mannequin in Macy's you're dismembering someone.

Even if we do consider the people that you mention, who enjoy fake-killing and not real killing, why do they enjoy fake-killing? What is their motivation for this? Why do they find this satisfying, or fun? The examples I gave were games where you didn't have a motivation to kill, mind you. And despite this, people enjoy playing these to torture and murder fictional characters, or commit manslaughter on them.
Probably because they realize that killing real people is bad, but also realize they have urges to do it sometimes. Anyone who works in retail knows at least one customer you want to just punch in the face for being an idiot/moron/jerk/whatever. I mean really, just because I don't take any pleasure from it or want to go destroy the world doesn't mean I don't think some people need a swift kick in the rear.

Violent games are just a logical extension of this. With the exception of vampires, Nazis and zombies. No matter how human you make them, they're always OK to kill, even IRL.

And you were very fortunate to have that ability, it makes you a much stronger person in mind than many. But it cannot discount that people have weaknesses. I don't think what they were planning was in any way right, but it's rather cruel in itself to discount them just because you can't understand.

"Can't understand" is not what I said. I said I "won't look at it that way." Weakness is NOT an excuse. It will NEVER be an acceptable excuse. Are some people weak in ways others are strong? Of course. Does that make it OK to break down and decide to kill people? No it doesn't. Everyone is capable of either coming to terms with what they've been delt, or better yet, overcoming it and being better for it. At no point do you get to say "well, my life sucked, so everyone needs to die." and get people to feel sorry for you because you "weren't strong enough". It's not a matter of strength, it's a matter of choice. Instead of choosing to tough it out, you chose to give in.

Some people will never like you, others will outright hate you. Some people will be kind to you. This is the way of the world, always has been, always will be. You are free to remove yourself from it, but at no point do you have to right to decide for others when their time is up.

Sabretooth
09-05-2009, 02:56 AM
Probably because they realize that killing real people is bad, but also realize they have urges to do it sometimes. Anyone who works in retail knows at least one customer you want to just punch in the face for being an idiot/moron/jerk/whatever. I mean really, just because I don't take any pleasure from it or want to go destroy the world doesn't mean I don't think some people need a swift kick in the rear.

Violent games are just a logical extension of this. With the exception of vampires, Nazis and zombies. No matter how human you make them, they're always OK to kill, even IRL.
Ah, and now we come to the point I'm trying to make. The difference is, these kids saw a world filled with the customers you just mentioned. They saw a world where every person had been converted into a Zombie Nazi Vampire who wanted to make them the same. It's that same unflinching need to destroy them, that violent urge that took them.

Violence, both real and simulated stems from that intrinsic human urge to fight, to attack and to conquer. It is manifested in many ways, in war, in politics, in sport, and civilization has made us view some of these ways as proper, and others as improper. It makes sense when the United States goes to war against a known threat in Afghanistan, as a formal declaration of war. Not so much when a few kids conduct a personal jihad against the world.

Instead of choosing to tough it out, you chose to give in.
Interesting you use this sentence, because the kids used this exact ideal,but in the opposite way you intend. They saw the world as a machine of conformism that wants to consume them with its lies, deceit and unfairness. Rather than give in to it, rather than to conform, they chose to fight it and deal as much damage to it before going down.

Jae Onasi
09-05-2009, 02:45 PM
The problem, Sabre, is that they were targeting the wrong people. Even in war we try not to target the innocent. These kids knew what they were doing was wrong, or they wouldn't be planning their suicides to escape the heavy penalties for their killing spree. I understand their motivation,but that doesn't make it right. Planning the deaths of innocents is still evil, regardless of whether they think they're innocent or not. All their thinking shows us is that they were contemplating actions based on faulty reasoning for selfish purposes. We may have such urges from time to time, particularly if someone has hurt someone we care about. However, most of us have the self control not to act on these impulses.

El Sitherino
09-05-2009, 03:08 PM
However, most of us have the self control not to act on these impulses.
isn't that the point we're trying to make? I know that was exactly my point
most!= all.

Jae Onasi
09-05-2009, 05:21 PM
isn't that the point we're trying to make? I know that was exactly my point
most!= all.

If you're trying to argue that what they're doing is excusable because they lack the self control to conform to the most basic societal rules, I will vehmently disagree. I understand something is very wrong with their thought processing, but it makes them no less dangerous. A mass killer is a menace to society, regardless of reason or motive.

Web Rider
09-05-2009, 08:58 PM
isn't that the point we're trying to make? I know that was exactly my point
most!= all.

Could the make a deterinination between who to kill and who not to as evidenced by the message to the girl not to come to school? Yes.
Could they on some level comprehend what they were doing was wrong, and thus limit their effects to specific targets? Yes.
Did they calculate and plan instead of act on a moments notice? yes.

Honestly, there's no way I can see an argument being laid down that they lacked self control when they clearly demonstrated the ability to clearly define their actions.

Totenkopf
09-05-2009, 10:02 PM
Honestly, there's no way I can see an argument being laid down that they lacked self control when they clearly demonstrated the ability to clearly define their actions.

I agree. Premeditation clearly denotes a sense of control. Now that they'll hopefully be locked up they can receive all the sypathetic attention they apparently need.

Sabretooth
09-06-2009, 12:43 AM
The problem, Sabre, is that they were targeting the wrong people.

No, to them there were no innocents. As I've said, they saw the society as one being.

I'm not saying that what they did was right or that they don't deserve to be locked up, just that they aren't the horrific, twisted, warped monsters that people make them out to be. They are as human as any of us.

El Sitherino
09-06-2009, 01:33 AM
If you're trying to argue that what they're doing is excusable because they lack the self control to conform to the most basic societal rules, I will vehmently disagree.

Jae, sit back for just a moment, breathe deep, and remember who you're talking to. You know very well I'm in no way excusing them, I'm just saying that clearly these boys were not stable average people.

I understand something is very wrong with their thought processing, but it makes them no less dangerous. A mass killer is a menace to society, regardless of reason or motive.
And I'm pretty sure no one has said otherwise.
My argument is that it's foolish to simply be angry at these boys. I'm upset by their plans, but I'm equally, if not more, upset that there is a society refusing to accept responsibility for creating it's own monsters.

Could the make a deterinination between who to kill and who not to as evidenced by the message to the girl not to come to school? Yes.
Could they on some level comprehend what they were doing was wrong, and thus limit their effects to specific targets? Yes.
Did they calculate and plan instead of act on a moments notice? yes.

Honestly, there's no way I can see an argument being laid down that they lacked self control when they clearly demonstrated the ability to clearly define their actions.
I still don't understand how that refutes that they are not like most people? Perhaps I should have better edited down my quote of Jae's post.

To be honest I'm not really sure why you're attempting to argue with me, I'm pretty sure we're on the same page, I just think it's stupid to not also point the finger at society. Do you get mad when you put food infront of a dog and it eats it?

Web Rider
09-06-2009, 02:14 AM
I still don't understand how that refutes that they are not like most people? Perhaps I should have better edited down my quote of Jae's post.
I'm pretty sure I'm saying they are like most people, they just made different choices.

To be honest I'm not really sure why you're attempting to argue with me, I'm pretty sure we're on the same page, I just think it's stupid to not also point the finger at society. Do you get mad when you put food infront of a dog and it eats it?
I think I already addressed that in my first post actually. Of course there's blame to be put on society, but society didn't make these kids idolize murderers. They may have made them feel unwanted and unappreciated, but that alone is not enough to make kids into killers. They could have just as easily become really close friends who played pool and took martial arts, EXCEPT for their existing persuasion to idolize murderers.

I don't think society made them that way, but I do think society pushed them into a place where they were more susceptible to such thoughts.

But, we don't know what went on in their lives to lead up to this. What they claim is the reason why may or may not be the truth, they could have had lots of people try to befriend them and be kind to them, but instead refused such hospitality on the grounds of being "cool" by being the "outcast".

Jae Onasi
09-09-2009, 11:18 PM
No, to them there were no innocents. As I've said, they saw the society as one being. It's irrelevant how they saw these people--they were innocent nonetheless. Just because these 2 boys decided everyone was guilty did not make everyone guilty. I understand what you're saying, but their thinking is incorrect.

I'm not saying that what they did was right or that they don't deserve to be locked up, just that they aren't the horrific, twisted, warped monsters that people make them out to be. They are as human as any of us.You're perhaps confusing human and 'humane'. These 2 boys can be human, yet still be horrific, twisted, warped monsters at the same time. Just because they're humans doesn't mean they had any humane feelings for the rest of us, as you or I do. What they were planning to do was horrific, twisted, warped, and monstrous. Serial killers and mass murderers are all human. Jeffrey Dahmer and John Wayne Gacy were child molesters and mass murderers, and Dahmer cannibalized his victims. They are all horrific, twisted, warped monsters despite being members of the human race.

Sure, something's very broken inside their heads. Society may have contributed to that. Lack of intervention by adults who could have done something positive about their negative school experience may have contributed to that. Their parents likely contributed. They themselves likely had mental health issues that either went undiagnosed, or untreated, or they refused to take treatment. They could have channeled their energy into something a lot more positive. They knew what they were doing was wrong, yet pursued those plans anyway. It was a conscious decision on their parts, and they are old enough to take responsibility for those plans.

Sometimes you have to call it like you see it. They're monstrous humans who need to be locked away so they don't hurt anyone else until such time that whatever inside of them is broken can be fixed. If it can't be fixed, they can't be let out.

jrrtoken
09-10-2009, 06:44 AM
It's irrelevant how they saw these people--they were innocent nonetheless. Just because these 2 boys decided everyone was guilty did not make everyone guilty. I understand what you're saying, but their thinking is incorrect.How? While I'm sure that they reached a very morbid conclusion, there's a very good chance that they had the same thought capacity as anyone else - they simply reached a wholly different conclusion. While it is unfortunate that they attempted to resort to violence, I'm sure that many factors affected their judgment, and therefore, they approached the conclusion that any other human being would reach when under unsavory conditions: a very hastily put-together one, with questionable judgment.You're perhaps confusing human and 'humane'. These 2 boys can be human, yet still be horrific, twisted, warped monsters at the same time.Explain. I'm sure that anyone can be considered "monsters", Jae, but the boys in question weren't mentally impaired; their rantings clearly indicate process of thought and reason, so they certainly can't be mentally impaired.They could have channeled their energy into something a lot more positive.Could they? If I'm going by what they believed, they certainly were under extreme depression, and knowing from personal experience, anyone can feel trapped and helpless.They knew what they were doing was wrong, yet pursued those plans anyway. It was a conscious decision on their parts, and they are old enough to take responsibility for those plans.They were barely 18; even by that age individuals are subject to foolishness, why is this any different?Sometimes you have to call it like you see it. They're monstrous humans who need to be locked away so they don't hurt anyone else until such time that whatever inside of them is broken can be fixed. If it can't be fixed, they can't be let out....then that only contributes to the problem. Without rehabilitation and prevention of behavior such as this, there will only be more violence enacted by troubled students. If we are to simply isolate the "troubled" individuals, then what message do we send to other potential school shooters? That society doesn't care about them? That their thinking is as criminal as any other mass murderer?

Darth Avlectus
09-14-2009, 10:49 PM
How? While I'm sure that they reached a very morbid conclusion, there's a very good chance that they had the same thought capacity as anyone else - they simply reached a wholly different conclusion. While it is unfortunate that they attempted to resort to violence, I'm sure that many factors affected their judgment, and therefore, they approached the conclusion that any other human being would reach when under unsavory conditions: a very hastily put-together one, with questionable judgment.

Ok, if 'incorrect' is relative, then I guess their thinking was 'subjective' and had a case of tunnel vision where there were, in fact, other options, they just didn't see. Why didn't they see it? Presumably a combination of their desire, their mental state, and their selectivity. Maybe they chose not to, maybe they hadn't been set right. Who knows?

However, it isn't as though this is such an easy thing to choose to do either: and it isn't as though some kind of conflict never came up along the way. Surely it must have.

So, it's just kind of hard to feel sorry for them when it is conceivable that they did at one point see these other people as presumably innocent. They forwent any notion of innocence amongst society's population--at least that portion thereof.

Does that not stand to reason?

<snip> their rantings clearly indicate process of thought and reason, so they certainly can't be mentally impaired.Could they?

It also shows premeditation with intent to harm amongst what I said above about forgoing that others may not be guilty.

If I'm going by what they believed, they certainly were under extreme depression, and knowing from personal experience, anyone can feel trapped and helpless.

If you're having problems, you sort them out. Despite their rational thinking, what was their ultimate goal at the end? Had they even thought that far? Or was it all acting upon desire?

They were barely 18; even by that age individuals are subject to foolishness, why is this any different? Different from?

...then that only contributes to the problem. Without rehabilitation and prevention of behavior such as this, there will only be more violence enacted by troubled students. If we are to simply isolate the "troubled" individuals, then what message do we send to other potential school shooters? That society doesn't care about them? That their thinking is as criminal as any other mass murderer?

Look, frankly, I have been in a similar situation growing up. And I do agree that there should be some kind of interception w.r.t. preventing this sort of thing which goes beyond just punishing. By that I mean send all youth a message of some kind that says "you *are* a part of society", "things don't need to end badly", and lastly "what is it that makes life worth living to you?".

This case, however, is after the fact. Maybe they never really wanted to hurt anyone and felt driven to this. I've been there before, on the collision path. I got off of it. I always figured there ought to be some kind of way I can carve a niche for myself, it didn't have to end badly. These guys didn't do that, they stayed the course. They suffered for it.

When I had a **** it attitude it was towards whatever the system thought of 'me and my kind'. Who were they in the system? IDIOTS, for all I cared. Sycophants and narcissists who didn't even deserve a spare moment of my time. Others? What made others any better than me? Nothing, not a damned thing.

I can't explain what happened, but suddenly the same pair of dice looked different. A whole lot better. The unimaginative freaks, well, they couldn't beat me so they began trying to be like me, like they understood me. I laughed b/c they haven't changed at all, and now they put me in vogue. But I STILL couldn't care less.

Ultimate riches is not jewels and gold, it's discovering yourself. Discovering the secrets which determine quality of life: they come from within. And even so, you still have a long way to go. I'm not perfect, you're not, never met anyone who was.

These boys were far away from that. I'm not them so I can't judge, but y'know, it takes recognizing and strive. While they had clear rationale, their judgment ultimately had to be clouded, somewhere. Clouded enough so they could not recognize things, and make their strive.

Astor
09-16-2009, 01:47 PM
The two boys have now been found not guilty by Manchester Crown Court of plotting any massacre. Naturally, now criticism is being directed at the CPS for wasting money.

I'd rather the CPS wasted the money on the court case than not investigating this, given the level of planning that had gone into the 'massacre' fiction or not. A waste of money is far more preferable to a massive loss of life.

Story. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/8259565.stm)